S06.E08: The Summit

[skippylou]

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

It doesn't make sense to me either. If he realized that E was using him to spy on the State Department, why would he have ever followed up with her? Get into her car and go for a drive?

He was not a stupid person. His first reaction should have been to call the FBI - or better yet - to call a good lawyer. That would have been very much better because the FBI would have used him to suit their purposes if he had no lawyer. But they would have been forced to treat him fairly if he had a lawyer. For a clever man, he behaved in an extremely stupid way. If I learned anything from my lawyer friend, it is that when you think you need to call the police, call a lawyer first and let them represent you. It usually makes an enormous difference to the way things work out for you.

Is E that wonderful in bed? Did her sexual prowess completely mystify him and freeze his brain? That is my best attempt at an explanation.

It looks like the last person on Earth who wasn't screwed by talking to the FBI was Curtis.   A lawyer helps but silence is golden.  They can lie to you but if you forget to cross your Ts and dot your Is...do not collect $200.   Just ask Martha Stewart or General Flynn.

[SunnyBeBe]

I am always suspect of Claudia, because she is so hard core, but, I really wonder if she would kill E or P without direct orders.  And if she did get them from that certain faction within The Centre, would she do it?  They need to be pretty careful, because, if they kill P & E, they are losing vital illegals.  (I take it that the Centre isn't aware that the FBI is on their heels.)  All the years it took them to get P & E to where they are now AND they have Paige just starting her career.  Would The Centre really screw that all up over E not killing this target they have?  Maybe, E is confident that they wouldn't. 

After E got home and talked to P, she said she had some work to do.  Where was she going? The night job is over.  Hmmm....to see Paige?

Edited May 17, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[tpplay]

A redemption arc for Elizabeth at this point would be a real let down. 

The idea that "there's such a thing as morality" has to be one that these two people who are spies MUST have discussed a trillion times before, if we're to believe they're not sociopaths.  (I'm not actually sure I do believe they're not sociopaths, given the remorselessness with which they've murdered people - including scores of innocent people who were just "in the way". But I suppose the writers would like us to believe they're not sociopaths.

I loathe both of them although the writers have gone a fair distance to attempt to make Elizabeth "worse" this season.  (Of course, she's hands down the worse of these two parents.)

I think anything less than these two people getting what they deserve would be a cop out.  Of course, it's on TV so who would that surprise?  I'm just hoping against hope.

[Ina123]

I've always seen Renee as just a wife for Stan. A reason to keep living across from P & E. After all, Stan already looks like a fool with them across the street. Making Renee a spy just seems to add insult to injury. Over the top, I mean. I can't see them making Stan even more of a sap.

But, then again, a sleeper in personnel at the FBI? What a coup!

So they just keep me guessing and I keep watching. At least as long as my heart can take it.

[anonymiss]

56 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

We haven’t ever seen Philip befriend someone and then seduce their wife have we?

 

we JUST saw the difference in him with kimmy  vs her with Jackson: she didn’t kill him but wasn’t troubled by the sex. Philip postponed that for years.  Have we ever seen Phillip casually let a car land on someone?

We also see Philip care about his kids.

My impression from what the show has shown us is that Philip has a conscience and Elisabeth has a mission. I’m usually the first one to talk about different standards for men and women I don’t see it here.

There is no debate on whether Phillip is the more conscientious critical thinker, especially not after this episode spelled that out.

But I do see a double standard in how quickly she is labelled a no-conscience-having "monster," "sociopath," "evil," and "hateful shrew." (The last pejorative came from her not being thrilled at learning her husband has been spying on her. Yet, it's clear she does understand, which is why she takes the actions she does.) Part of this double standard is a confirmation bias in ignoring the evidence that doesn't support this black-and-white view of her.

The post you quoted was in response to how much is made of her body count when Philip would have had a comparable number if they had been working together this season, as they have been equal prior. To your points, I do see Elizabeth caring about her kids. I do see her struggling with her conscience, like in the Young-Hee mission you mention (to the point where Gabe sees it and submits a request to do it another way). I don't see the equivalence to Kimmy and this young man. Why would Elizabeth need to "postpone" or be "troubled by the sex? He's not an underage girl and even though she only knew him a short time she was torn on how to contain him, and ultimately let him go. As we know, Philip seduces and uses whomever he needs to, one of them ended up in a suitcase. If the same had happened to one of Elizabeth's long-term assets we would have seen her similarly troubled by it, like she was with Gregory.

[skippylou]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

It's funny that the thing that has given E away is her beauty. William talked about how "she was pretty and he was lucky" and Stan looked like he was about to throw up when he heard "she smoked like a chimney" and "she was beautiful". 

It makes me think the Soviets should have frumped up real Elizabeth Jennings more so she would of totally not been as noticeable. Maybe more like Marilyn, who Gabriel described as "a woman you would not notice, even if she was sitting on your lap." 

I think here looks were looked upon as a positive factor in her selection.  She can "honey pot" almost any mark in about 10 seconds.

[SailorGirl]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

No, she just said "state capitals" -- I watched the scene again. 

welp, so much for my theory! :-D

[lazylou]

12 hours ago, skippylou said:

Anyone have a clue as to why Phillip is getting a new suit...NOW?

I have been wondering about this, too...especially looking at that suit!  I do not buy the idea of a suicide suit...who buys a new suit for his burial? This is another costume, this time a high fashion one.  And now we know Stavros knows a thing or two, yet another stone for Stan to turn...but the visit may have been intended to keep Stavros silent a little while longer.  It does seem as though Philip is making amends.  Maybe he is getting set to a) turn himself in and make a deal of some sort...but why would he need the suit?  b) finally go home, c) run some sort of con in a last gasp effort to save the day for his beloved Elizabeth and the kids.  

Edited May 17, 2018 by lazylou
Further thoughts.

[qtpye]

Just now, skippylou said:

I think here looks were looked upon as a positive factor in her selection.  She can "honey pot" almost any mark in about 10 seconds.

I mean to make her look more frumpy than the lovely way she usually looks like E Jennings (which is probably the closest to her true self).

E is the master of the honeypot, but this was the first time I ever saw her honey trapping game actually be off when she was trying to seduce the intern. She is usually much smoother and subtler and it is a good indicator that Phillip's words had a great effect on her.

[skippylou]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

After E got home and talked to P, she said she had some work to do.  Where was she going? The night job is over.  Hmmm....to see Paige?

I think she is keeping an eye up on Nesterenko in case Claudia is lining up someone else to 86 him.  

[SunnyBeBe]

1 minute ago, Ina123 said:

I've always seen Renee as just a wife for Stan. A reason to keep living across from P & E. After all, Stan already looks like a fool with them across the street. Making Renee a spy just seems to add insult to injury. Over the top, I mean. I can't see them making Stan even more of a sap.

But, then again, a sleeper in personnel at the FBI? What a coup!

So they just keep me guessing and I keep watching. At least as long as my heart can take it.

Yeah, the thing with Renee now, in my mind, is a loser.  In any scenario the way it was handled was poor.  If she's just a loving wife, then, why all the innuendo, odd comments and behavior?  Obviously, they were trying to bring attention to her character and show that she could be something other than what she claimed.  Everything from how she and Stan met to how he got her a job at the FBI is suspect, so, if there is nothing there, it's ridiculous to have gone to those measures.  AND, if she is a spy of some sort, it's just as ridiculous, because it really makes Stan to not only be a complete idiot about his best friend, but an even bigger idiot about his WIFE!  So, either way, to me it was bogus BS.  So, I'll try not to hold it against them. 

Spoiler

From what I've read, the showrunners are just are too full of themselves, so they don't really care about it. 

[RedHawk]

15 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

After E got home and talked to P, she said she had some work to do.  Where was she going? The night job is over.  Hmmm....to see Paige?

That threw me as well. I doubt it was to visit Paige. Does she still have to have sex with the fat guy in a hotel overlooking the Lincoln Memorial? I want to know where she went. 

 

3 minutes ago, skippylou said:

I think she is keeping an eye up on Nesterenko in case Claudia is lining up someone else to 86 him.  

I don't think it was this either.

[Ina123]

9 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

As far as Renee goes, she's had about 60 seconds of screen time in total. How can it make any sense to have her turn out to be an important character in the last two episode. It would make zero sense to me. But it wouldn't be the first time.

IMO, it just didn't make sense for Stan to continue to live in that house alone. Having him live next door to P&E is of critical importance to the plot. So the show runners needed some woman who would live with Stan and have a legitimate reason for that. The only thing that makes sense was for her to be his wife. He's a red, white and blue FBI agent, They couldn't have him living with someone unless they were married. But that is my opinion of Renee's importance. She is just there to provide Stan with a reason to stay in that house. This show has spent far more time showing Stan watching that house and entering that house than it has ever spent telling us who Renee is or what she is about. I have zero interest in learning more about her.

I agree. I think that's exactly why she gets so little screen time. She's just there as a wife for Stan. (and to drive us crazy wondering).

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I am always suspect of Claudia, because she is so hard core, but, I really wonder if she would kill E or P without direct orders.  And if she did get them from that certain faction within The Centre, would she do it?  They need to be pretty careful, because, if they kill P & E, they are losing vital illegals.  (I take it that the Centre isn't aware that the FBI is on their heels.)  All the years it took them to get P & E to where they are now AND they have Paige just starting her career.  Would The Centre really screw that all up over E not killing this target they have?  Maybe, E is confident that they wouldn't. 

After E got home and talked to P, she said she had some work to do.  Where was she going? The night job is over.  Hmmm....to see Paige?

The problem is that until Gorbachev is deposed, Liz has the power to get all the coup planners executed. If she decides that she wants to blow the entire assasination plot, which she essentially does, by having Phil inform Burov of what is going on, everbody involved in the plot is subject to being tortured until they give up the co-conspirators, and then taken down to the basement, for The Full Nina. Liz and Phil gotta get clipped, if the anti-Gorbachev plotters are to protect themselves.

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

While smoking alone is not enough evidence (it was the 80s) you put it with all the other evidence Stan has and he has a pretty good circumstantial case against Elizabeth.  But it is just circumstancial.  Not sure he has enough to convict and he himself doesn’t really want to believe it either.    Now if he ever decides to talk to Stavos he would have even more but then you can say...disgruntled former employee so still just circumstantial.   All Stan needs is that one piece of evidence that connects it all.

 

But I am not entirely sure he wants to find it.  

Not just smoking but long, gorgeous hair! I laughed that that finally got mentioned. I've never worn a wig so I can't imagine how she hides that much hair under a wig. Also, I'm surprised that Elizabeth ever met with anyone, even Gregory, when not in some disguise. But then they had an actual relationship and everything.

I'd like it if Jackson ends up going to the FBI and then being the one to recognize Eizabeth in all those drawings. If Stan showed him the photo I think he could identify her because I don't think she looked that different when she met with Jackson, she was just blonde rather than brunette. 

[teddysmom]

So Claudia confirms to Elizabeth what Phillip had told her, and she's STILL pissed at him? 

[jjj]

16 minutes ago, skippylou said:

I think she is keeping an eye up on Nesterenko in case Claudia is lining up someone else to 86 him.  

That is what she said she would be doing, because she thought they would go after him again.  And she is right; the split faction will just find another way to eliminate him, if their big plan depends on his death. 

13 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

That threw me as well. I doubt it was to visit Paige. Does she still have to have sex with the fat guy in a hotel overlooking the Lincoln Memorial? I want to know where she went. 

I don't think it was this either.

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

That is what she said she would be doing, because she thought they would go after him again.  And she is right; the split faction will just find another way to eliminate him, if their big plan depends on his death. 

I wonder who'll they get to do it. E seemed to be the only reliable agent on the east coast, the way they ran her all over for missions and then there's Marilyn's death, so she's out. 

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder who'll they get to do it. E seemed to be the only reliable agent on the east coast, the way they ran her all over for missions and then there's Marilyn's death, so she's out. 

The return of Tuan! Liz will try to stop him, Tuan yells "Eat lead, petty bourgeois class enemy!" and shoots Liz! Liz gasps "Geez, what an A-hole!", with her last breath....

[SunnyBeBe]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The return of Tuan! Liz will try to stop him, Tuan yells "Eat lead, petty bourgeois class enemy!" and shoots Liz! Liz gasps "Geez, what an A-hole!", with her last breath....

Yeah and he also says, "And you told me NOT to work alone!"

[Bannon]

Aderholt's brilliant insight, that the drawings are either of the same two people, or of different people, make me wish we could start a thread for each episode, and take nominations and elect which character the writers chose to make most stupid for that episode. Aderholt wins this episode, I think, over Paige wondering if Claudia ever met Gorbachev, but Paige or Stan have to be leaders in the overall standings.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Bannon

[ChromaKelly]

43 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Not just smoking but long, gorgeous hair! I laughed that that finally got mentioned. I've never worn a wig so I can't imagine how she hides that much hair under a wig. Also, I'm surprised that Elizabeth ever met with anyone, even Gregory, when not in some disguise. But then they had an actual relationship and everything.

I'd like it if Jackson ends up going to the FBI and then being the one to recognize Eizabeth in all those drawings. If Stan showed him the photo I think he could identify her because I don't think she looked that different when she met with Jackson, she was just blonde rather than brunette. 

I can't remember - did E know Gregory as herself - as Elizabeth and not in disguise?

I was waiting for Jackson to come out being followed by the FBI or some sort of authority. I really thought he was just a bit suspicious and was going to submit a false report, do some sort of check to see if that firm was real - something. I felt like E was rushing things with him and being a little sloppy.
I'm also really missing Oleg. I would have rather seen scenes of Oleg eating a sad lonely dinner in his hotel room than Paige's stupid bonding with Granny and E crap. "Did you wear a big furry hat in Russia? Wow, that's so cool! What's World War II?"
 

[SunnyBeBe]

Stan and his team putting all that work into eyewitness identifications.....it's not even that reliable.   

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

What would make it more amusing to me, is if the witnesses said that it wasn't P and E.  lol 

[dubbel zout]

9 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

Truthfully, nobody's demanding an autopsy on somebody with end stage cancer.

Is there an insurance policy of some sort?  Couldn't that force an autopsy?

It's still end-stage cancer. I don't think it would matter that she died, say, four weeks earlier than expected. 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

It's still end-stage cancer. I don't think it would matter that she died, say, four weeks earlier than expected. 

Yep, the medical examiner is going to write "cancer" for cause of death, and that's it.

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't know how it worked back then, but, my understanding now is that if you are on Hospice, the Hospice doctor signs off on the death and there is no need to call medical examiner, police, etc.  

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Stan and his team putting all that work into eyewitness identifications.....it's not even that reliable.   

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

What would make it more amusing to me, is if the witnesses said that it wasn't P and E.  lol 

Very frightening to think of how many people have been convicted of the most serious crimes, primarily on the basis of eyewitness testimony.

[Pink-n-Green]

That boy, young man, whatever you want to call him that Elizabeth was working on....is he the same person Paige honeypotted (or attempted?) a few episodes ago?

As far as Renee, I don't remember the exact wording but when she asked Stan what they'd ask her in her interview he said something to the effect of they just want to make sure she's a loyal citizen.  Could be foreshadowing, but then, my ideas for this are always wrong so who knows.

I don't want Elizabeth's entire core of being that we've seen for six seasons to just flip in the last two shows.  I don't want the end game to be "Gee, Phillip, you're right!  the United States IS a nice country!!"  Ideally, I'd like to see this one woman crime spree get what's coming to her.

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

That boy, young man, whatever you want to call him that Elizabeth was working on....is he the same person Paige honeypotted (or attempted?) a few episodes ago?

No; Jackson works for Senator Nunn. Paige's intern worked for someone else.

[SunnyBeBe]

28 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

That boy, young man, whatever you want to call him that Elizabeth was working on....is he the same person Paige honeypotted (or attempted?) a few episodes ago?

As far as Renee, I don't remember the exact wording but when she asked Stan what they'd ask her in her interview he said something to the effect of they just want to make sure she's a loyal citizen.  Could be foreshadowing, but then, my ideas for this are always wrong so who knows.

I don't want Elizabeth's entire core of being that we've seen for six seasons to just flip in the last two shows.  I don't want the end game to be "Gee, Phillip, you're right!  the United States IS a nice country!!"  Ideally, I'd like to see this one woman crime spree get what's coming to her.

I didn't interpret it as E changing her mind about the USA, but, rather seeing that Russians who are trying to do the right thing, by negotiating fairly, should not be shot down on the basis of lies.  She heard what the man said and thought that he was honorable and not selling out his country.  So, the idea that the hardliners would lie about that to promote their own agenda, seemed to be against true Soviet party teachings, in her way of thinking.  That was my interpretation. 

[Sarah 103]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

Once again, Paige asks the dumbest effin' questions. "Gee, Claudia, do you know Gorbachev? Did you lunch with Lenin?"

I thought she meant knew him as in, crossed paths with him at an event, not weekly phone calls. She doesn't know where Claudia fits into the overall organization structure. 

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I would say that Renee, if hired for that position will have some authority over hiring. So would Paige's application get top priority?  Or has Paige already turned in an application that could come into Renee's possession in that job?  I know she was told to apply to the State Department, right? Do we have time for Renee to get hired and start digging into backgrounds? Not likely. 

I'm not sure. Would the State Department go to the FBI to run a background check? I thought the State Department had their own team/division that ran background checks. 

1 hour ago, ChromaKelly said:

I would have rather seen scenes of Oleg eating a sad lonely dinner in his hotel room than Paige's stupid bonding with Granny and E crap. 

I was hoping at some point, either in Russia or in the U.S, there would be a scene of Oleg having a good time at a Jazz Club. 

[Inquisitionist]

30 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I don't want Elizabeth's entire core of being that we've seen for six seasons to just flip in the last two shows.  I don't want the end game to be "Gee, Phillip, you're right!  the United States IS a nice country!!"  Ideally, I'd like to see this one woman crime spree get what's coming to her.

I didn't see anything in this episode to suggest that outcome.  Elizabeth is still devoted to her country.  She's stunned, and then pissed off, to find that others she thought shared her devotion to Mother Russia are instead working for factions that don't seem to have the country's best interests in mind.  She's been used and lied to, and she doesn't like that.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 minute ago, Sarah 103 said:

I thought she meant knew him as in, crossed paths with him at an event, not weekly phone calls. She doesn't know where Claudia fits into the overall organization structure. 

I'm not sure. Would the State Department go to the FBI to run a background check? I thought the State Department had their own team/division that ran background checks. 

I was hoping at some point, either in Russia or in the U.S, there would be a scene of Oleg having a good time at a Jazz Club. 

Yeah, I thought of that, but, with Paige.....well....FBI, State Dept., ......whatever.  She might have gotten them mixed up.  lol  Sorry, I know that's mean, but, it is a federal job, so, I can conceive that the FBI might do background checks on applicants. They maintain a fingerprint database, so, why not?  If anyone knows chime it.  

[Chaos Theory]

People watch way too much police shows where a single strand of hair is caught by the right person.  When a dying woman goes home to die and then dies more often then not it gets signed off very quickly.   

As for Elizabeth her “awakening” has been coming for a very long time now.  You can say the fact it happens during the last three episodes is too coincidental but it makes sense narratively speaking.   With two episodes left, a home and homeland divided, now is the perfect time for her to question all the things she only kinda sorta questioned before.  Plus she just found out all those murders she has been committing lately were not to stop a traitor.  She was in fact committing treason herself.  I think that might be a bridge too far for her.  She is a patriot.  Even to a leader she may not agree with.  That at least makes her different then Claudia.   She asked the questions before or had them asked of her but always chose the mission in the end but this time it isn’t quite as easy or clear to her.  I kind of like that.  Give Elizabeth one last chance to figure out who she really wants to be....just as Stan is about to figure out who she has always been.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

So Claudia confirms to Elizabeth what Phillip had told her, and she's STILL pissed at him? 

She's just a very angry girl. As some other poster said, the Communist system does not work. It is really just a sham - like National Socialism. If E is finally starting to realize that, she will also realize that most of her life has been in the service of some thugs and despots. That would make most anyone angry. Don't you think?

[hellmouse]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I didn't see anything in this episode to suggest that outcome.  Elizabeth is still devoted to her country.  She's stunned, and then pissed off, to find that others she thought shared her devotion to Mother Russia are instead working for factions that don't seem to have the country's best interests in mind.  She's been used and lied to, and she doesn't like that.

It has to make her question everything. If they're planning to falsify her reports to achieve some outcome, she must wonder, have they ever done that before? How have I been duped by my own people? Have they been using her as a weapon for personal ends? it's not like Elizabeth to sit and reflect on every operation she's ever done, but she's going to think about it a little, at least. 

It's also going to make her question the plan for Paige. Elizabeth has lied to Paige, but she's always thought it was for Paige's own good. Now she's got to reconsider the fact that she's setting her daughter up to be a pawn for an organization itself can't be trusted. Her naive, inept, American daughter. How does Elizabeth decide to handle that? 

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, kikaha said:

Stan hasn't given Renee (or anyone) a clue he's investigating the Jennings -- at least not till this last episode.  She hasn't reported anything because there's been nothing to report till now.

That's my point. If she's there to report when Stan suspects the Jennings she's useless because he does and she doesn't know.

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

 

I hadn’t put together what exactly Philip was doing watching that movie, but I think you nailed it.  He was watching a Russian movie reminding himself of what he was dying for, what he’d put first.( I think he expected Elizabeth to betray him.) What a contrast to the Paige propaganda fest. 

MR was amazing in the way he watched that movie, btw. I love the way he just stares at it like he's trying to open himself and suck in as much of it as possible. This is probably the first time since coming to the US where he actually tried to do that about Russian-ness.

Agreed about the real Claudia showing up and how Philip did not let Elizabeth get away with one of her halfway-gestures by just telling her how to get in touch with Oleg. He's not out anymore. He even offered to help with whatever she had that night and she totally naturally gave him the meet with Father Andre. 

12 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

 

People suspected Pastor Tim was actually KGB for a while too. And the girl on the bus who recruited Paige into his ministry. And so many other people have been fingered as KGB over the seasons, and I can't think of any that panned out. 

People still suspect Pastor Tim or think he's some sort of a red herring. At least with Renee the idea was explicitly raised by Philip.

 

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

So does anyone have a good read on what, specifically, Elizabeth saw in the painting of Erica's she "chose"? Honestly, I've been drawn to that particular painting for weeks, since it reminds me of someone and I can't figure out who; I think it's an actress, but I'm not sure whether it's someone on the show or someone completely unrelated.

 

 

I've always thought it reminded her of her mother. But it's a striking picture as well. And well set up the way she was always truly drawn to it and it was huge so there was no way you could think she was just grabbing something to placate the guy.

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia is good, and she won Elizabeth back in several ways over the years.  It didn't suddenly happen.  I think a big step in winning her back was when she told Elizabeth that she tried to stop the recruitment of the other couple's son, and she would have never approved if she had known about the honeypot tricks that eventually made him kill his parents.

She's looked out for them both many times since, and she also is good with Paige. 

How much of beating Claudia was her inner fury at herself for her betrayal of Philip? 

Anyway, no choice now, she had to get along with her, Gabe flat out quit.  The other handler was certainly not better than Claudia.

I totally buy her falling for Claudia. That's one of the weaknesses of someone like Elizabeth. If you prove you're "one of us" then you can get away with a lot. Elizabeth recognizes that she and Claudia have the same attitude about the Cause. She likes being able to commisserate with her over Philip not being that way. She then naturally assumes that Claudia sees everything the same way she does and isn't lying to her. Claudia also got smarter about not bringing Philip up--I almost expected her to say "like Philip" when she was warning about Elizabeth throwing things away. But she's made sure to be very careful about that, having told Elizabeth she was wrong about him.

9 hours ago, jjj said:

I thought it was very odd that the husband of Erika left her to die with Elizabeth, after he had sat with her for a day in extremis.  Did he expect Elizabeth/Stephanie to finish the job for him?  

Yes, he did. She had already offered to and was allegedly a nurse.

6 hours ago, anonymiss said:

Thank you. If Elizabeth hadn't insisted he quit, his murder toll would be comparable to hers. Evidently, there are different standards for women, though.

 

People have cheered on Elizabeth killing for years. It's not a double standard. This season she's not only more of a hard-liner like she's always been but the plot is about her being robotic and not caring about it. Her whole arc is basically about how she needs to wake up and start acting like a human being again.

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Is Henry giving his dad the silent treatment?  I get the feeling he is.

 

I think if he was supposed to be snubbing him he'd have snubbed him and we'd know it. The kid said he was at hockey practice, checked to make sure and he was. It was just another case of missed signals. They didn't want to show us a phone call between the two but wanted us to see that Philip wanted to speak to him. 

 

3 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

Think about everything he could tell them. Alone, the intel on how Directorate S has operated would be a gold mine. Then, all the operations he and Elizabeth had done, people they flipped, all the dead drop signals, and even specific locations and items (such as which mailboxes). All that, times two. That intel would certainly be worth some sort of trade-off.  I think Philip is so beyond the point of DGAF, if Elizabeth was gone, he would spill all, and probably just ask for Paige to be able to finish college and for Henry to finish his fancy-schmancy boarding school. 
And once he's done that, under the crack FBI protection that has allowed so many other Russian turncoats to be taken out, I could envision a Sopranos-like ending for Philip -- walking down the street, someone comes up behind him, we hear a gun cock, and the the screen goes black. Who was behind him? We are left to wonder -- Stan? (Wouldn't be the first time for ol' Stanny boy); Granny? Renee? Elizabeth who, it turns out was only mostly dead and is now back deep undercover for Mother Russia? Hell, let's throw Paige -- the secret Mata Hari we underestimated all along, in as a comedic relief option! 

I just can't picture Philip deciding that since his wife his dead he might as well betray the country he put above her in this episode.  Especially for stuff that seems so relatively small. If the kids are innocent he shouldn't have to deal to let them live a regular life.

3 hours ago, shura said:

He must have been really depressed by the movie then. It's not exactly a movie that would inspire Soviet patriotism or reinforce commitment to die for the country. It is about people infighting and backstabbing in an effort to get some parking spaces, and it touches on the injustices of life in the USSR, things like corruption and the need to be connected to get something. Kind of like Oleg's story from last season (but a comedy, believe it or not).

Not intending this to be a knock on the writing, but that's not some brilliant idea the writers had to be particularly talented to come up with. It's all real life.

That's what makes it perfect for him, imo. Claudia or Elizabeth would totally have gone for one of the many Russian movies about WWII or something from their own youth for nostalgia and patriotic inspiration. Philip was watching a movie about regular people and life in the USSR--including stuff that Gorbachev is trying to help. Russians, like all humans, spend a lot of their time acting like idiots. :-) It's like if I was looking for a movie to connect me to life in my city I wouldn't go for something about 9/11, I'd watch an ep of Seinfeld or High Maintenance. Those include fights over parking. 

3 hours ago, Novel8 said:

Seriously, I thought this episode was one of the best acted of them all. I cannot believe that Keri has not won an Emmy. If this was a movie she would have won an Oscar. She is so damn convincing in all her scenes, especially this last 'death' scene. I believe that Phillip is going to give himself up to Stan. Never forgotten the one scene that was shown in the last couple of weeks trailer, when he walked up to Stan and said, "i'm the one you have been looking for"...perhaps it was put there then by error, and if I am not mistaken, he looked 'dressed up'...new suit?

I don't remember any scene where Philip said that.

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Is Stavos Russian? I always wondered if he was some sort of very minor agent the KGB planted to keep an eye on Philip and Elizabeth (unbeknownst to them). If the worst happens, he can call the Centre or someone and let them know what's going on. But until then, he's an employee like everyone else.

Kimmy was underaged when she and Philip first met. Philip wasn't going to be stupid enough to risk rape charges. Plus, he was playing the long game with her. Elizabeth needed to get Jackson on board immediately.

I always assumed Stavos was Greek. He doesn't sound Russian, particularly.

Philip wasn't thinking at all about rape charges. He was being explicitly ordered to sleep with her and only didn't because he felt wrong about manipulating a young girl that way.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I agree. I think that's exactly why she gets so little screen time. She's just there as a wife for Stan. (and to drive us crazy wondering).

I really don’t get what was so difficult about writing her as a 3 dimensional person in a real relationship. Sandra was. 

I don’t care whether she’s a spy or not at this point. Renee wouldn’t have needed much more airtime than she has gotten so far to accomplish making her seem real. Instead of just arm candy for Stan. Which is her whole function. He married again. It works. That’s it.

[hellmouse]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Agreed about the real Claudia showing up and how Philip did not let Elizabeth get away with one of her halfway-gestures by just telling her how to get in touch with Oleg. He's not out anymore. He even offered to help with whatever she had that night and she totally naturally gave him the meet with Father Andre. 

I have always enjoyed the fact that no matter what is going on between them, Philip and Elizabeth are always professional about the job. It is a huge part of why they have succeeded at this for so long. They trust each other's ability to do the job and even if are angry or disappointed about something personal, they are always able to focus on whatever task is at hand, and work together as partners. 

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I thought she meant knew him as in, crossed paths with him at an event, not weekly phone calls. She doesn't know where Claudia fits into the overall organization structure. 

 

Paige knows that Claudia lives as an illegal in the United States, and has for years. Unless Gorbachev's background was KGB, why would Claudia and Gorbachev ever cross paths? It is not as if the Soviet State is a small entity. I know, this is Incurious Paige, so it is likely that the only thing she knows about Gorbachev is that he is the newish leader of the country she engages in espionage for, and that he has a birthmark, but good grief. I know the criticism of the character's writing gets pretty common, but for me, at least, it is borne of frustration of how interesting it could have been to have the character well written.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

So Claudia confirms to Elizabeth what Phillip had told her, and she's STILL pissed at him? 

He spied on her. She’s not over it yet. I hope she GETS over it. He was looking out for her while he was doing it. 

And-  he did try to tell her. Sure- he could have tried harder, but I wonder if Elizabeth had to get to this point in her life to really listen to Philip anyway. She had to meet Erica, face almost dying in Chicago (call Henry!) and have Philip join her just to help save her, continue to spy without Philip, deal with Paige, and actually understand just how important this mission was to Philip (ie that he would not only return to spying, but spy on HER). Maybe that all needed to happen first.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, anonymiss said:

But I do see a double standard in how quickly she is labelled a no-conscience-having "monster," "sociopath," "evil," and "hateful shrew." (The last pejorative came from her not being thrilled at learning her husband has been spying on her. Yet, it's clear she does understand, which is why she takes the actions she does.) Part of this double standard is a confirmation bias in ignoring the evidence that doesn't support this black-and-white view of her.

 

But she's labelled that way because the narrative is making that a central issue. Of course it's not black and white--I don't think she's remorseless at all. But the biggest question of this season is obviously whether Elizabeth will regain her humanity (which she totally has) in time so I don't see any reason to think her gender is that important. Even if it's impossible to ever completely remove that.

1 hour ago, ChromaKelly said:

I can't remember - did E know Gregory as herself - as Elizabeth and not in disguise?

 

Absolutely as herself. No disguise.

1 hour ago, Pink-n-Green said:

That boy, young man, whatever you want to call him that Elizabeth was working on....is he the same person Paige honeypotted (or attempted?) a few episodes ago?

As far as Renee, I don't remember the exact wording but when she asked Stan what they'd ask her in her interview he said something to the effect of they just want to make sure she's a loyal citizen.  Could be foreshadowing, but then, my ideas for this are always wrong so who knows.

I don't want Elizabeth's entire core of being that we've seen for six seasons to just flip in the last two shows.  I don't want the end game to be "Gee, Phillip, you're right!  the United States IS a nice country!!"  Ideally, I'd like to see this one woman crime spree get what's coming to her.

Different intern. Not Paige's.

Philip and Elizabeth are both fighting for their own country now so the US being a nice country or not isn't really an issue. The point is just that it's not the USA that's scheming here and lying specifically Elizabeth.

OH! I forgot. I'll have to watch again to be sure but I could swear that when Philip was trying on the suit the shot started with him in the mirror and there was a close up of his hand. You could see his wedding ring but because it was in the mirror it looked like he was wearing it on his right hand--iow, where he wears his real wedding ring, not the one he wears as Philip Jennings. It was Russian style on the right hand.

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Paige knows that Claudia lives as an illegal in the United States, and has for years. Unless Gorbachev's background was KGB, why would Claudia and Gorbachev ever cross paths? It is not as if the Soviet State is a small entity. I know, this is Incurious Paige, so it is likely that the only thing she knows about Gorbachev is that he is the newish leader of the country she engages in espionage for, and that he has a birthmark, but good grief. I know the criticism of the character's writing gets pretty common, but for me, at least, it is borne of frustration of how interesting it could have been to have the character well written.

It's funny watching Paige try to come up with relevent things to say in response to the stuff she's shown, really. But it fits with the pattern. For Paige it's all about Elizabeth and Claudia personally. 

[Plums]

Re: Renee, cause I just can't seem to let it go, lol-

I read a really interesting comment on the avclub review about her possible purpose, and if she doesn't turn out to be a failsafe operative of some sort, her purpose could simply be as an illustration of the damage wrought by Phillip and Elizabeth's deception on Stan's psyche. She could just be kind of a weird person and not really suspicious, but after the Jennings are caught (assuming they are), the hugeness of the betrayal will permanently break his ability to trust anyone, and the relationship with Renee will be an example of that. She could say something slightly off like University of Indiana instead of Indiana University again, and it launches Stan down a paranoia spiral the same as it did us, lol. But it will be so much sadder for Stan, because it's his wife!

[skippylou]

Do we know any details about Renee's past?  Jobs? Schools? BFs? Husbands? Interests?  Even Stan must have looked at her history before marrying her and she passed FBI background check.  I'm sure at this level they didn't do nationwide searches of Renee's with same birth date who died young.  Or would they?   Maybe she's just an attractive, athletic 40 year old with a nice rack? 

[lazylou]

Just watched the episode a second time.  E and P are completely unaware of how the Feebs are tracking them down by using the info on the tradecraft used in Chicago.   It is clear to us that P will have a better disguise when he goes to see the priest...but...I cannot remember.  Did they wear disguises with the priest?  So P, not E, is walking into surveillance.

Interesting P has rented a Russian movie...all about a coop garage, apparently, and, if you read the subtitles, about how useless it is to oppose the coop management. Underlining, maybe, P's experience with trying to reason with his handlers over the years.

[Erin9]

36 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I didn't interpret it as E changing her mind about the USA, but, rather seeing that Russians who are trying to do the right thing, by negotiating fairly, should not be shot down on the basis of lies.  She heard what the man said and thought that he was honorable and not selling out his country.  So, the idea that the hardliners would lie about that to promote their own agenda, seemed to be against true Soviet party teachings, in her way of thinking.  That was my interpretation. 

Exactly. The hardliners are using the Summit as a means to get rid of a leader they don’t like. That the party is standing behind. (That was a big issue for Elizabeth. The party supports him.) And they’ll murder nesterenko and falsify Elizabeth’s reports making him and Gorbachev look like traitors to accomplish that. Even when to her they’re sincerely negotiating in what they feel is the best interests of home and the world. She had the benefit of hearing Nesterenko. She heard he wasn’t a sell out. 

I’m not sure Elizabeth has suddenly become pro reform at home either, but she sees this situation for what it is:  A coup built on lies by a small disgruntled faction. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But she's labelled that way because the narrative is making that a central issue. Of course it's not black and white--I don't think she's remorseless at all. But the biggest question of this season is obviously whether Elizabeth will regain her humanity (which she totally has) in time so I don't see any reason to think her gender is that important. Even if it's impossible to ever completely remove that.

Absolutely as herself. No disguise.

Different intern. Not Paige's.

Philip and Elizabeth are both fighting for their own country now so the US being a nice country or not isn't really an issue. The point is just that it's not the USA that's scheming here and lying specifically Elizabeth.

OH! I forgot. I'll have to watch again to be sure but I could swear that when Philip was trying on the suit the shot started with him in the mirror and there was a close up of his hand. You could see his wedding ring but because it was in the mirror it looked like he was wearing it on his right hand--iow, where he wears his real wedding ring, not the one he wears as Philip Jennings. It was Russian style on the right hand.

It's funny watching Paige try to come up with relevent things to say in response to the stuff she's shown, really. But it fits with the pattern. For Paige it's all about Elizabeth and Claudia personally. 

It would have been so, so, so much more interesting to depict Paige as a having a truly ravishing curiosity about the country she is spying for, becoming extremely knowledgeable without special coaching from ma and granny, and THEN having it demonstrated that she doesn't know nearly as much about what it means, to live this life, as she supposes. Instead they wrote her as a dull witted and incurious, so when she is depicted as making errors, there is no drama at all. 

[anonymiss]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

People have cheered on Elizabeth killing for years. It's not a double standard. This season she's not only more of a hard-liner like she's always been but the plot is about her being robotic and not caring about it. Her whole arc is basically about how she needs to wake up and start acting like a human being again.

None of the characterizations I take issue with acknowledge she was robotically following orders. They essentialize her work as who she is--a monster, a sociopath, a hateful shrew who enjoys this. Years ago, after Elizabeth's mission with the lady who was an addict went bad, and she ended up killing her to stop her from going to the police, there was a comment about how Elizabeth enjoys this and was getting antsy not having murdered in a while like the sociopath she is. It was agreed with and one of many that paint her that way. So I don't see the cheering. I see a vilification, which, for the reasons I've mentioned previously, is a double standard. 

[SusanSunflower]

Elizabeth must have realized from Claudia's "confession" that she (E.) had been set up as a sacrifice pawn no matter what happened and -- of course -- that Claudia's confession sealed her (and Phillip's) fate.  See also that to protect Paige from Granny's protective mothering, she needed to stay alive (or at least outlive Claudia and her grasp) ....  

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, lazylou said:

Just watched the episode a second time.  E and P are completely unaware of how the Feebs are tracking them down by using the info on the tradecraft used in Chicago.   It is clear to us that P will have a better disguise when he goes to see the priest...but...I cannot remember.  Did they wear disguises with the priest?  So P, not E, is walking into surveillance.

Interesting P has rented a Russian movie...all about a coop garage, apparently, and, if you read the subtitles, about how useless it is to oppose the coop management. Underlining, maybe, P's experience with trying to reason with his handlers over the years.

And season 5 could have been so much better if the writing had played up Phil being completely aware of how the Great Wheat Caper was a big, boring (remember the non great sex with Ms. Personality?)  waste of time , foisted upon him by his idiot bosses.

4 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Elizabeth must have realized from Claudia's "confession" that she (E.) had been set up as a sacrifice pawn no matter what happened and -- of course -- that Claudia's confession sealed her (and Phillip's) fate.  See also that to protect Paige from Granny's protective mothering, she needed to stay alive (or at least outlive Claudia and her grasp) ....  

It's really important for the end of this show that the writers get this part of it right. Here's hoping...