S06.E08: The Summit

[hellmouse]

38 minutes ago, Dev F said:

On rewatch, it's interesting how that "Choose a painting" scene echoes my initial read on the episode as a depiction of a "summit" in a more figurative sense; just like Philip is looking around at all these different roles he could be playing or has played and trying to figure out which path defines him, Elizabeth is looking around at all these paintings and deciding which one speaks to her.

It also potentially lends greater meaning to the scene where the the FBI guys are looking at all the sketches of Philip and Elizabeth. "They're either all the same people, or all different people." Truth is, they're both. There are only two of them, but there are so many different people they could each end up being.

I love this observation. 

[Erin9]

@Clanstarling

I’m still lol about TV cheating on your husband. 

I’ve often read that E and P’s work is all a waste because the USSR falls. I’ve never agreed fully with that assessment. They’re committed to more than just a government. It’s their home. They have a desire to protect it, see life improve there. Especially Philip. Stopping the coup/seeing that the summit is a success  would be probably their biggest achievement, but it wasn’t all a waste even setting that aside. Big example would be how they handled Reagan’s near death.

I said earlier that Elizabeth is still mad at Philip at the end because he spied on her, lied to her. And that is it. But her anger also wasn’t going to be diffused  when Philip didn’t trust her with how to get in touch with Oleg. He was absolutely doing right by Oleg though- as he should have. I fully agree with his choice. But that wasn’t going to bring them closer. He didn’t trust her. He did after she spelled it all out, but damage done. And he’s still doing the drop.  It was a nice flip as well- one of the few times they did things Philip’s way. It was good to see. I love seeing Philip choose a direction that he believes in and own it so fully.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Erin9

[hellmouse]

5 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

 It was a nice flip as well- one of the few times they did things Philip’s way. It was good to see. I love seeing Philip choose a direction that he believes in and own it so fully.

Reminds me of the episode back in Season 1 where he says "for once we're doing it my way" and they don't tell the Centre about Haig having the nuclear football. And then later, Elizabeth says she's glad they did it his way and the Centre was lucky to have him on the ground. So maybe that is a good omen for how this may work out.

ETA - it was episode 4, "In Control"

Edited May 18, 2018 by hellmouse

[JBravoEcho09]

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I got the feeling that Stavros might have thought that they were using the business as a money laundering type front. I'm not sure if the truth would ever enter his mind.  I mean, besides the secrecy and disappearing acts, what else could he have known about?

He was always bumbling into their office lol.

Quote

Claudia also got smarter about not bringing Philip up--I almost expected her to say "like Philip" when she was warning about Elizabeth throwing things away. But she's made sure to be very careful about that, having told Elizabeth she was wrong about him.

Yeah, she learned her lesson last time she tried to turn Elizabeth against him. "This isn't gonna go well for you, old lady" are words I'm hoping the show still lives up to. Shades of that convo are all over that latest confrontation between the two

 

Finally, yes Paige asked a silly question. in her defense it's just a common fallacy.  I work at an 8,000 person dept in the govt but everytime I tell someone that they inevitably go "Oh do you know Steve...I think he works there." It is dumb but it's that 'I don't know many of you so you must all know each other' impulse lol

Edited May 18, 2018 by JBravoEcho09

[EtheltoTillie]

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

@Clanstarling

I’m still lol about TV cheating on your husband. 

I’ve often read that E and P’s work is all a waste because the USSR falls. I’ve never agreed fully with that assessment. They’re committed to more than just a government. It’s their home. They have a desire to protect it, see life improve there. Especially Philip. Stopping the coup/seeing that the summit is a success  would be probably their biggest achievement, but it wasn’t all a waste even setting that aside. Big example would be how they handled Reagan’s near death.

I said earlier that Elizabeth is still mad at Philip at the end because he spied on her, lied to her. And that is it. But her anger also wasn’t going to be diffused  when Philip didn’t trust her with how to get in touch with Oleg. He was absolutely doing right by Oleg though- as he should have. I fully agree with his choice. But that wasn’t going to bring them closer. He didn’t trust her. He did after she spelled it all out, but damage done. And he’s still doing the drop.  It was a nice flip as well- one of the few times they did things Philip’s way. It was good to see. I love seeing Philip choose a direction that he believes in and own it so fully.

I think we can accept that Elizabeth would realize it protected Oleg (she doesn't know it's Oleg), if she is kept out of it. She could be followed. 

TV cheating: my husband doesn't watch this show (he watches no series TV), but I had to buy the episode on iTunes or else I would have had to wait until next Tuesday to see it. I could not have stood the suspense. 

[Razzberry2]

It all feels a bit rushed and unearned, but I'm thankful for the Paige-reprieve, and E and Claudia fuming about Gorbie was worth the price of admission alone.   

Renee really creeps me out.  I half suspect her of drugging Stan.  That would at least explain WTF took him so long, why the lightbulb, dim as it was, finally flickered.  He had to have some previous suspicions to make that jump, but I don't recall him having a clue.  Just good old Stan, BFF.  Chump of the Century.  He has to take them down or he may as well blow his brains out.

[MisterBluxom]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

Claudia had generally been written as a shrewd character, but this week, she just came across as stupid and unthinking.  Her spiel to Elizabeth just sounded like Stepford Spy -- We do what we are told, and don't wonder why. 

I believe there have often been problems with the writing of this show. But in this case - and I can't believe I'm writing this -  I'd like to defend Claudia somewhat. At least until Elizabeth finally kills her.

Claudia grew up in Stalingrad during WW2. There could hardly be any place at any time that was more horrible - except maybe one of the Nazi concentration camps.

Claudia has spent her entire life clinging to the central thought that the Nazis were the worst manifestation of evil ever perpetrated on this world and Russia was the single most heroic nation and deserves to be rewarded tremendously for its sacrifice in defeating the Nazis. I doubt that she ever goes for more than 24 hours thinking about how 20 million (or more) Russians were slaughtered by the Nazis in a completely stupid and insane attempt for them to conquer Russia and take over the whole world.

Claudia witnessed first hand how so many millions of Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. But Russia finally defeated the Nazis and that was the single greatest event in Claudia's life. She has spent her entire life working to see Russia become the world's greatest power and on several occasions she has participated in some schemes that resulted in bringing Russia closer to achieving its ultimate goal - to become the world's leading nation and for Communism to rule the entire world.

I have a friend who was 17 in 1967 and traveled to San Francisco and lived the "Hippy" lifestyle. To this day, all he ever talks about is how great all those Hippies were and how the Hippy movement needs to be reestablished. Nuts? Absolutely. But I think it may be the same kind of mental affliction affecting Claudia. Her entire life revolves around that one central event and she feels a tremendous need to see Russia rewarded and rule the world.

Now, a bunch of people who support Gorbachov and who weren't even alive in WW2 come into power and appear to be giving away all of the gains Claudia has worked so hard to obtain. In Claudia's mind, no one who did not experience the struggle and defeat of the Nazis has any claim to the greatness that is Russia.

Can you put yourself in her shoes?  She must be very close to complete madness at this development and she must be willing to do most anything to stop this from happening. Her own life be damned. Claudia will do anything and everything she can to oust the current leadership - regardless of how it might cause her to suffer and probably die. I think there is little doubt that if she is actively working to overthrow the current leadership, she should expect to be arrested and tortured and then - if she is lucky - put out of her misery in a similar manner as was Nina.

Given all of that, I can feel a little understanding towards her for now finding herself in such a frantic and desperate mental condition.

Of course, I'd still enjoy seeing her stopped with extreme prejudice.  After all, it seems pretty clear to me that she is totally out of her freaking mind.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MissBluxom

[terrymct]

On 5/17/2018 at 3:48 AM, jjj said:

I thought it was very odd that the husband of Erika left her to die with Elizabeth, after he had sat with her for a day in extremis.  Did he expect Elizabeth/Stephanie to finish the job for him? 

Yes, that's exactly what he expected.   He's tried himself and left his wife suffering.  Stephanie/Elizabeth is supposed to be a health care professional and could finish it.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, duVerre said:

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I always looked at the portrait and saw emotional pain. It could remind Elizabeth of her mother, but I always wondered (because she looked at it a lot), if Elizabeth saw her own pain on that canvas. Most of the artist's work evoked that to me, and I found them very compelling

I think the paintings work on us, the viewers, in much the same way as they work on Elizabeth. Each of us has a personal relationship to them, and so we will all interpret this particular step toward Elizabeth's change of heart in a different way. They're a kind of dramatic Rorschach test.  We know that the art is a trigger for Elizabeth--and assume that it triggers her the same way it has triggered us.

Sounds like I need to go to a therapist! ;)

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Was your confession a tense one in the living room where he accused you of loving to talk? ;-)

No, but it was in a car and I was laying out my reasons in a logical, strategic manner. ;)

9 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

No, I don't think most people could smother a loved one with a pillow. 

I agree. Poor man couldn't stand to hear her terrible breathing, no way he could keep the pillow on her while her body fought for life automatically.

5 hours ago, Razzberry2 said:

Renee really creeps me out.  I half suspect her of drugging Stan.  That would at least explain WTF took him so long, why the lightbulb, dim as it was, finally flickered.  He had to have some previous suspicions to make that jump, but I don't recall him having a clue.  Just good old Stan, BFF.  Chump of the Century.  He has to take them down or he may as well blow his brains out.

Stan has had clues several times. Most notably in the first episode - when he broke into their house and checked the car. After he found nothing, he attributed his suspicions to his paranoia from spending time undercover with the hate groups. But there were several times, including looking at the police sketches, where he clearly had a response, but it didn't quite bubble up into a coherent thought. I do believe there were other times where he noticed something was odd, but I can't recall. And to be fair, how unlikely would it seem to anyone, much less an FBI agent, that your neighbors are illegal spies? And once they were friends, those suspicions got shoved to the back of his mind.

This reminds me of Anne Rule, who wrote the original book about Ted Bundy. When she started working on the book, they didn't know who the killer was. But in a wierd coincidence, she actually knew Bundy and had at one point thought of calling the tip line because he had a car like the one the police were describing. But she didn't call it in because she dismissed her own little niggly thought. It's human - even for people whose jobs it is to catch (or write about) bad guys.

5 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I believe there have often been problems with the writing of this show. But in this case - and I can't believe I'm writing this -  I'd like to defend Claudia somewhat. At least until Elizabeth finally kills her.

Claudia grew up in Stalingrad during WW2. There could hardly be any place at any time that was more horrible - except maybe one of the Nazi concentration camps.

Claudia has spent her entire life clinging to the central thought that the Nazis were the worst manifestation of evil ever perpetrated on this world and Russia was the single most heroic nation and deserves to be rewarded tremendously for its sacrifice in defeating the Nazis. I doubt that she ever goes for more than 24 hours thinking about how 20 million (or more) Russians were slaughtered by the Nazis in a completely stupid and insane attempt for them to conquer Russia and take over the whole world.

Claudia witnessed first hand how so many millions of Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. But Russia finally defeated the Nazis and that was the single greatest event in Claudia's life. She has spent her entire life working to see Russia become the world's greatest power and on several occasions he has participated in some schemes that resulted in bringing Russia closer to achieving its ultimate goal - to become the world's leading nation and for Communism to rule the entire world.

I have a friend who was 17 in 1967 and traveled to San Francisco and lived the "Hippy" lifestyle. To this day, all he ever talks about is how great all those Hippies were and how the Hippy movement needs to be reestablished. Nuts? Absolutely. But I think it may be the same kind of mental affliction affecting Claudia. Her entire life revolves around that one central event and she feels a tremendous need to see Russia rewarded and rule the world.

Now, a bunch of people who support Gorbachov and who weren't even alive in WW2 come into power and appear to be giving away all of the gains Claudia has worked so hard to obtain. In Claudia's mind, no one who did not experience the struggle and defeat of the Nazis has any claim to the greatness that is Russia.

Can you put yourself in her shoes?  She must be very close to complete madness at this development and she must be willing to do most anything to stop this from happening. Her own life be damned. Claudia will do anything and everything she can to oust the current leadership - regardless of how it might cause her to suffer and probably die. I think there is little doubt that if she is actively working to overthrow the current leadership, she should expect to be arrested and tortured and then - if she is lucky - put out of her misery in a similar manner as was Nina.

Given all of that, I can feel a little understanding towards her for now finding herself in such a frantic and desperate mental condition.

Of course, I'd still enjoy seeing her stopped with extreme prejudice.  After all, it seems pretty clear to me that she is totally out of her freaking mind.

This is a great read on Claudia's thoughts and motivations. One niggly detail, Gorbachev was indeed alive in WW2, he was born in 1931. So while he wasn't an adult, he  experienced the struggle, his father fought in the war. He did become a well educated man, getting a Master's Degree - which might not have sat well with certain groups of people in the Soviet Union, as it doesn't with some people in the US today.

Claudia embraces the great struggle as the pinnacle of her existence which brings meaning to her life -  whereas many others experienced it as the horror that it was and would want to prevent something like that from happening again. That dichotomy is pretty human, isn't it?

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I did love that [Stavos] said "No!" when Philip asked if he could come in. I guess I'm good at nursing a grudge, so I respect that. ;)

Same here! Whether it was because Stavos was afraid Philip might hurt him or he was being petty, I vastly enjoyed that refusal. And I also respect people who nurse a grudge.

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Sounds like I need to go to a therapist! ;)

No, but it was in a car and I was laying out my reasons in a logical, strategic manner. ;)

I agree. Poor man couldn't stand to hear her terrible breathing, no way he could keep the pillow on her while her body fought for life automatically.

Stan has had clues several times. Most notably in the first episode - when he broke into their house and checked the car. After he found nothing, he attributed his suspicions to his paranoia from spending time undercover with the hate groups. But there were several times, including looking at the police sketches, where he clearly had a response, but it didn't quite bubble up into a coherent thought. I do believe there were other times where he noticed something was odd, but I can't recall. And to be fair, how unlikely would it seem to anyone, much less an FBI agent, that your neighbors are illegal spies? And once they were friends, those suspicions got shoved to the back of his mind.

This reminds me of Anne Rule, who wrote the original book about Ted Bundy. When she started working on the book, they didn't know who the killer was. But in a wierd coincidence, she actually knew Bundy and had at one point thought of calling the tip line because he had a car like the one the police were describing. But she didn't call it in because she dismissed her own little niggly thought. It's human - even for people whose jobs it is to catch (or write about) bad guys.

This is a great read on Claudia's thoughts and motivations. One niggly detail, Gorbachev was indeed alive in WW2, he was born in 1931. So while he wasn't an adult, he  experienced the struggle, his father fought in the war. He did become a well educated man, getting a Master's Degree - which might not have sat well with certain groups of people in the Soviet Union, as it doesn't with some people in the US today.

Claudia embraces the great struggle as the pinnacle of her existence which brings meaning to her life -  whereas many others experienced it as the horror that it was and would want to prevent something like that from happening again. That dichotomy is pretty human, isn't it?

Thank you for the correction. Heh. Heh. I believed Claudia when she said something that I thought meant he wasn't alive. But I was wrong again.

[benteen]

21 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Same here! Whether it was because Stavos was afraid Philip might hurt him or he was being petty, I vastly enjoyed that refusal. And I also respect people who nurse a grudge.

I was glad too.  Philip's visit was self-serving.  It was to make PHILIP feel better, not Stavos.

[Clanstarling]

31 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Same here! Whether it was because Stavos was afraid Philip might hurt him or he was being petty, I vastly enjoyed that refusal. And I also respect people who nurse a grudge.

Best to respect the grudge bearers. LOL.

28 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Thank you for the correction. Heh. Heh. I believed Claudia when she said something that I thought meant he wasn't alive. But I was wrong again.

It did sound like that - and I looked it up because I was puzzled by what Claudia said myself. I had believed at the time (late 80's) that Gorbechev was roughly my father's age (correctly as it turns out). But like Stan, what I'd found out didn't crystallize for me until I read your post.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Misstify]

Everyone has discussed the major points of the episode so eloquently.  Now here's a minor one I'm wondering about.  Why did the show pick, of all movies in the world, I Was A Male War Bride to play in the video store scene?  I saw the movie long ago and all I can think is that it's a tribute to the many wigs of Philip and Elizabeth.  Cary Grant plays a Frenchman who marries a WAC during the war.  In one famous scene, he has to dress like a woman, due to the military not being able to cope with foreign spouses who are men.  

The dialogue in the video store sounds like it's from the other famous scene in the movie, where Cary Grant has to ride in the sidecar of a motorcycle being driven by a woman--because only military personnel can drive the motorcycle.  I guess there's also the contrast between this silly WWII comedy and Claudia's WWII experiences, and the reality of the cold war/planned coup that's going on in the show.

[Inquisitionist]

Good questions, Misstify!  I haven't see IWaMWB in ages (and I missed the ending because my VCR -- yes, it was back in VCR days -- cut out early).  The homage to wigs is an amusing link, but I think perhaps the choice had more to do with Philip "following" Elizabeth wherever she ultimately goes, much as Cary Grant's character did with respect to Ann Sheridan's character in the movie.  The IMDb description reads:

Quote

After marrying an American lieutenant with whom he was assigned to work in post-war Germany, a French captain attempts to find a way to accompany her back to the States under the terms of the War Bride Act.

IIRC, Grant's character had to jump through some comical, but potentially humiliating, hoops to accompany Sheridan back to the U.S.  Philip also seems willing to debase/sublimate himself for Elizabeth.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Inquisitionist
Corrected typo.

[SusanSunflower]

Now that you mention it, I can see Phillip disguising himself as Elizabeth to provide a decoy for Claudia. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, JBravoEcho09 said:

Finally, yes Paige asked a silly question. in her defense it's just a common fallacy.  I work at an 8,000 person dept in the govt but everytime I tell someone that they inevitably go "Oh do you know Steve...I think he works there." It is dumb but it's that 'I don't know many of you so you must all know each other' impulse lol

 

The question also works as foreshadowing to Claudia's later revelation. She probably talks as if she's met him because she has that personal animosity as if he's done something to her personally. Paige's question to me isn't so much *stupid*--since as I said Claudia had gone back to the USSR not that long before and who knows, she might have met him at some point--as much as it's just part of the way she responds to everything, by making it about the personal life of her, Claudia and Elizabeth. It's pointedly *not* about anything going on at the summit, or the details of any of these treaties, or why it is "weird" that Gorbachev is in DC.

2 hours ago, benteen said:

I was glad too.  Philip's visit was self-serving.  It was to make PHILIP feel better, not Stavos.

Absolutely. Talking about absolution, there. 

To clarify, it's not that I don't get Stavos holding a grudge because if Philip feels bad as far as he's concerned that's how it should be. I just also can't help but think when he talks about how he's worked there for so long that he got a pretty good deal out of it because he doesn't objectively seem like a great employee. There's no reason he should be literally at the bottom of the entire office when it comes to his productivity after that many years and he did actually have some responsibility for losing that long-term client by not just telling Philip that the guy was offended personally and Philip needed to take care of him. Of course he did better with less pressure to produce.

1 hour ago, Misstify said:

Everyone has discussed the major points of the episode so eloquently.  Now here's a minor one I'm wondering about.  Why did the show pick, of all movies in the world, I Was A Male War Bride to play in the video store scene?  I saw the movie long ago and all I can think is that it's a tribute to the many wigs of Philip and Elizabeth.  Cary Grant plays a Frenchman who marries a WAC during the war.  In one famous scene, he has to dress like a woman, due to the military not being able to cope with foreign spouses who are men.  

Male War Bride immediately sounds like Philip to me!

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I said earlier that Elizabeth is still mad at Philip at the end because he spied on her, lied to her. And that is it. But her anger also wasn’t going to be diffused  when Philip didn’t trust her with how to get in touch with Oleg. He was absolutely doing right by Oleg though- as he should have. I fully agree with his choice. But that wasn’t going to bring them closer. He didn’t trust her. He did after she spelled it all out, but damage done. And he’s still doing the drop.  It was a nice flip as well- one of the few times they did things Philip’s way. It was good to see. I love seeing Philip choose a direction that he believes in and own it so fully.

 

It was funny given the above discussion about Stavos that Philip did seem to be seeking absolution in the ep--presumably he would have been sorry to Henry, then he wanted Stavos to forgive him, and confessing to Elizabeth was also coming clean. But still, Elizabeth of all people sneering about him wanting absolution seemed like the one that *didn't* bother him because I honestly don't think he did anything wrong with her and I don't think he does either. He understands why she's angry, of course. He wishes he could have done it without that personal betrayal, but it's not like she's acknowledging any of her own responsibility there. (She also never apologized for informing on him for very little reason when they were younger.) You can't constantly complain about somebody talking too much and tell them to shove their desire to talk things out up their ass and then act like it's impossible that they tried to talk to you and couldn't. If you're already ranting about Gorbachev and America being evil the guy's not dumb enough to take that as an opening to revealing what he's doing. 

It was actually just very funny that Elizabeth was literally complaining that he put what he considered the country's well-being above her ego, especially given the way she reacted to the whole Kimmy thing. She actually does cherish the way Philip puts her above everything and is hurt when he doesn't do it--but probably relieved as well once she calms down and gets some perspective. She'd rather be showing compassion for him in his suffering after chopping up a body for her than hearing about this!

But then, I don't think she's thinking any of that through yet. She must feel so many things in this ep. First, she's the one who's been considering herself the main super spy and it turns out she's the dupe all along. Claudia knew more than her, Philip knew more than her. She didn't suspect either of them. Plus she doesn't even get to be righteous about it, at least with Philip. His cause was very just and even if she's not ready to admit it she knows that she very well might not have done the right thing if he'd brought it up to her earlier. She pretty much did try to order him, at great personal cost to himself, to help her with this coup and not ask any questions. Plus she's also been been contemptuous of him specifically because he's not caring about the country enough and now it turns out he was trying to save the country...from her.

This just has to be a big blow to her identity. Claudia *did* use her being the best, most-loyal agent against her while Philip respected it and potentially saved her reputation, if only in her own eyes. In this ep Claudia literally told her not to think while Philip told her to think.

Like you said, it's great to see Philip feeling solid in what he's doing and really that to me is the thing I've been waiting for for like 2 seasons. Part of his issue with all the other people he's dealing with is he is so apologetic and craving forgiveness that it's impossible for them to respect him, imo. Like, just own what you did and move on. Apologizing isn't doing anything and eventually it's just adding insult to injury (hello, Stavos!). He keeps telling everyone there was nothing he could do, nothing he can do...so they get it, he's useless. Stop wasting their time!

I get why it is. When Philip fired Stavos he was going against his own instincts, trying to make choices based on money. Just like when he was reading that book about business and trying to copy it. He never stood behind the choice or felt like he was doing the right thing so he can't defend it. Same with Henry--yes, it was totally his decisions that led to the tuition crisis, but those aren't decisions he really stands behind. We don't even know why, exactly, he decided to expand. He's not mourning the failure of his dream to be making more money or having an expanded business, he's just regretting the damage it caused to everything.. He just wishes he didn't do it. As MR said, he realizes that it wasn't his dream. 

But still from Henry's pov it's just his dad doing something dumb that had bad consequences for everyone and it's not even just like he made a mistake and now he'll move on because he just can't stop regretting it. With Elizabeth it's the opposite--he's finally started to work through exactly where he stands. He knew what he was risking with Oleg and why--just like he knew what he was risking with Kimmy and why. When you go up against that Philip, he's solid--you're kind of going up against Mikhail there. But going up against "Philip Jennings"--the adopted persona he tried to actually live by expanding the business, there's no there there. He was just trying to fit in or something.

God, I would really love for Henry to get some sense of this other guy. That would probably just make thing the whole thing so surreal for him because the real guy (or more accurately, the *whole* guy since they're all him) is *so* different from the father he is seeing. How could the guy who's so lacking in confidence he can't even keep a plastic car on a track be a hyper-competent, efficient and deadly KGB spy who's literally one of the FBI's most wanted? I don't see how poor Henry could ever reconcile those two. Even Paige doesn't really seem to have done it. She's only ever seen Elizabeth in action and seems to have just projecting the version of their marriage she already saw onto their spying: Elizabeth is determined and deadly and Philip...sometimes goes along to help but mostly just loves her or something.

Edited May 18, 2018 by sistermagpie

[PamelaMaeSnap]

13 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

What would have likely happened was "Wendy" would have given some bs excuse about him not getting the job after all and disappeared

I wondered about that briefly but before the final scene with him, she'd said something to the effect of "You'll hear from them next week and they'll give you all the details" or something along those lines ... so assuming had the shit not hit the fan as it did and she got everything she wanted with no drama, he'd just be sitting there waiting for his phone to ring ... and waiting ... and waiting ...

Re: The "TV cheating on our husbands," Mr. Snappy and I had to come to an amicable separation for the last few episodes (though perhaps we'll get back together for the final final final episode) because he works nights and then comes home and watches it around 1 a.m. when I am LONG since asleep ... I watch it generally the next morning/afternoon. And he has to not tell me anything and this episode he was ready to spontaneously combust waiting for me to watch it (which took an extra day). 

Finally, I was a little surprised that Elizabeth did not take the painting that looked the most like HER to avoid possible identification down the line ... still not sure why she burned it, hesitated, and then burned it full on (and why the smoke detector didn't go off but that's my internal firephobe/homeowner speaking) ... also, that painting haunted me all season because it looked so much like my late stepmonster-in-law may she rest in a total lack of peace.

Edited May 18, 2018 by PamelaMaeSnap

[bluelena69]

Spies don't operate in realms of agenda and factions. They operate for a unified country... in the Soviet case, The Cause. Elizabeth was most disturbed by the rise of agendas and factions. It portends bad things and she knows it.

The USSR hinged strongly on unity in loyalty to The Cause. Either the Jennings see the writing on the wall, quit and flee. Or they are suddenly blind and pay the price. Pretty simple. The question is "where can they go?"

Edited May 18, 2018 by bluelena69

[dubbel zout]

I had to laugh when Elizabeth was trying to wrangle that enormous painting into the car. She's lucky station wagons were still a thing. Ha!

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Finally, I was a little surprised that Elizabeth did not take the painting that looked the most like HER to avoid possible identification down the line ... still not sure why she burned it, hesitated, and then burned it full on (and why the smoke detector didn't go off but that's my internal firephobe/homeowner speaking) ... also, that painting haunted me all season because it looked so much like my late stepmonster-in-law may she rest in a total lack of peace.

It felt like an unconscious choice -- Erica's husband (sorry, he's still Max from Gilmore Girls to me) saw her eyes lingering on it, and said "Take it" before she had a chance to voice a selection.  As to the garage sequence, Elizabeth knew the protocol was to destroy the painting because  it would be traceable back to Erica/Stephanie if ever found, so she starts the process of burning it.  But something in the painting speaks to her, so she hesitates and stuffs it in her locker.  Then her "good spy" training kicks back in and she finishes the task of destroying the painting.  It was an interesting struggle to watch.

[benteen]

19 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I had to laugh when Elizabeth was trying to wrangle that enormous painting into the car. She's lucky station wagons were still a thing. Ha!

Likewise.  The whole thing is definitely darkly humorous. 

[ahpny]

Quote

So Claudia confirms to Elizabeth what Phillip had told her, and she's STILL pissed at him?

As other's noted, she's pissed that he deceived her - for months! - and that's a personal betrayal. He used her as an asset. She correctly points out that whatever efforts he may have made to tell her earlier were perfunctory. Had he really wanted to tell her, he would have. All true. Her anger thus seems realistic and justified.  But I half expected him to respond with some "but what abouts"  starting with her recent honey-potting of him, which, if true, is pretty reprehensible. (Recall she seemed use sex to get him to do his last Kimme job, though that remains nebulous and that job was ultimately aborted by Philip.) That can be seen as an insidious betrayal of Philip in a much more personal and degrading manner than anything Philip did. He did after all, tell her now, at great risk to himself. Thus, she's hardly "innocent" in the "let's not betray each other" department. And of course, he's probably never forgiven Elizabeth for (mis)leading Paige into spying. As the spy Elizabeth is, she must also realize that Philip was put in a nearly impossible situation where he could not be loyal to her without risking disloyalty to his own country and, from his perspective, the forces for good in his country. Let's also not forget her "he likes it here too much" comment to Claudia (or her predecessor?) long ago.

In short, she rightly won this battle, but the war's victory would go to Philip.

Edited May 18, 2018 by ahpny

[riverwind]

It  is really hard to know how it all will end up. I just hope somehow P finds out about his son  in Russia that came to look for him in the us. It was so wrong of the center not to let them connect. It was heart breaking! It was so sad when he left with , without finding him.  I keep thiking he would find him , the writers won't leave us with that emptiness, but on so many moments they did.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But then, I don't think she's thinking any of that through yet. She must feel so many things in this ep. First, she's the one who's been considering herself the main super spy and it turns out she's the dupe all along. Claudia knew more than her, Philip knew more than her. She didn't suspect either of them. Plus she doesn't even get to be righteous about it, at least with Philip. His cause was very just and even if she's not ready to admit it she knows that she very well might not have done the right thing if he'd brought it up to her earlier. She pretty much did try to order him, at great personal cost to himself, to help her with this coup and not ask any questions. Plus she's also been been contemptuous of him specifically because he's not caring about the country enough and now it turns out he was trying to save the country...from her.

This just has to be a big blow to her identity. Claudia *did* use her being the best, most-loyal agent against her while Philip respected it and potentially saved her reputation, if only in her own eyes. In this ep Claudia literally told her not to think while Philip told her to think.

And the thing about people who constantly shut the door on their feelings - when that door bursts open, they have no tools to unpack those feelings. They're just scattered all over, yammering for attention. The ones she's getting to first are directly related to the job and mission. The personal feelings? Those will take a while.

3 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Re: The "TV cheating on our husbands," Mr. Snappy and I had to come to an amicable separation for the last few episodes (though perhaps we'll get back together for the final final final episode) because he works nights and then comes home and watches it around 1 a.m. when I am LONG since asleep ... I watch it generally the next morning/afternoon. And he has to not tell me anything and this episode he was ready to spontaneously combust waiting for me to watch it (which took an extra day).

We watch nothing live, usually because of my schedule, and we watch the next day. This time the Mister's schedule got in the way. I'm actually looking forward to watching it again, which isn't something I generally do.

[Penman61]

3 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

 

Finally, I was a little surprised that Elizabeth did not take the painting that looked the most like HER to avoid possible identification down the line ... still not sure why she burned it, hesitated, and then burned it full on (and why the smoke detector didn't go off but that's my internal firephobe/homeowner speaking) ... also, that painting haunted me all season because it looked so much like my late stepmonster-in-law may she rest in a total lack of peace.

And this is why I read everyone's posts to the very end, regardless of length...

[Umbelina]

I didn't feel that Philip was asking for absolution from Stavros.  He was on his "goodbye" tour, telling people that he was close to that it wasn't all fake, that he did care for them, in the only way he could.  His visit to Stavros was a bit like his hug with Stan.  He expects to die, and he wanted to say something, as much as he could anyway, to let them know after his death that they weren't complete dupes, that they mattered to him.

Stavros definitely didn't let Philip in because he wasn't sure what Philip was into, but he's smart enough to know that could mean his death.  Even a small chance of that wasn't worth it, hence the "NO!"

Also, that movie he watched was all about the little guys getting screwed, even in the USSR that was founded on the idea of respect and equality for all, regardless of their job or position, it still happened, the small guy got screwed there, just as much as in the USA. 

One of the reviewers goes into the movie quite a bit, and it was a fantastic choice for this episode.  Yes, there was Philip hearing his native tongue again, and there was the guy who couldn't save the Russian Stew until morning but brought home a Russian movie, but a lot of it was about Stavros, and about Philip realizing also that the idealistic dreams of the Bolshevik revolution would probably never happen.  After all these years, years or horror and corruption, the USSR still had the same issues of the USA.  The little guy gets screwed.  (I'm not saying this well, but highly recommend that recap.) 

I think it's this one. If not, at least it touches on the movie.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/05/heres-the-story-behind-that-russian-movie-on-the-americans.html

Edited May 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[Penman61]

I see Philip's apology/explanation to Stavos also as part of Philip's attempt to reconcile capitalism's collateral depredations on personal relationships with his own sense of right and wrong:  You become "friends" with people who work for you and form genuine bonds, but when the bottom line dictates, those bonds must be severed. Philip HATES that.  (And this IS a real problem with capitalism.)  Philip was jazzed with his mobile phone, fancy sunroofed car, et al.  His is an interesting journey of disillusionment that parallels Elizabeth's now with the USSR.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Penman61

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I see Philip's apology/explanation to Stavos also as part of Philip's attempt to reconcile capitalism's collateral depredations on personal relationships with his own sense of right and wrong:  You become "friends" with people who work for you and form genuine bonds, but when the bottom line dictates, those bonds must be severed. Philip HATES that.  (And this IS a real problem with capitalism.)  Philip was jazzed with his mobile phone, fancy sunroofed car, et al.  His is an interesting journey of disillusionment that parallels Elizabeth's now with the USSR.

Yes, I really do think there's an interesting point being made with Philip in how he's basically learning through experience what he had learned by rote as a kid.

And I think he was trying to explain that to Stavos as well. Even talking about how somebody having fancy suits and things doesn't mean they're not in trouble financially seems like it points to that. But I think his wanting to be understood by Stavos can't help but come across as asking for absolution to Stavos at least. To him it's like Henry saying, "I'm a good person!" when he realizes how the neighbors see him based on his actions.

[hellmouse]

23 hours ago, Dev F said:

On rewatch, it's interesting how that "Choose a painting" scene echoes my initial read on the episode as a depiction of a "summit" in a more figurative sense; just like Philip is looking around at all these different roles he could be playing or has played and trying to figure out which path defines him, Elizabeth is looking around at all these paintings and deciding which one speaks to her.

It also potentially lends greater meaning to the scene where the the FBI guys are looking at all the sketches of Philip and Elizabeth. "They're either all the same people, or all different people." Truth is, they're both. There are only two of them, but there are so many different people they could each end up being.

I noticed that these two scenes are right after each other. The FBI looks at sketches and isn't sure of who they are, whether it's multiple people, etc. She has appeared to be so many people, with wigs and disguises, that the FBI can't tell she's one woman. Immediately in the next scene, the husband asks Elizabeth to "pick one" of the paintings. She's drawn to the large one, as she always has been. 

She told Philip on the plane when he noticed her drawing, "someone is making me learn". Erica didn't just make her learn how to draw. She made her learn how to see herself. The humanity Philip wants her to be aware of is making itself known. The husband sees it, and tells her to take that painting. It's wildly impractical to take such a large item, knowing she'll have to destroy it. But it's the one she wants. And it's hard to even get it in the car. This is a woman who has stuffed people in suitcases, put heads and hands in duffel bags with ruthless efficiency. But carrying the painting is like calling on her less developed skills. It's cumbersome and awkward and takes more time to get in the car. She's careful with it. 

When she hesitates before burning it, it reminded me of Philip pausing while chopping off Marilyn's head. He doesn't want to do this awful thing. But he knows he has to, and after a pause, he continues. Elizabeth doesn't want to destroy this painting that speaks to her so strongly, but she knows she has to, and she does. But I don't think she's destroying her humanity. If anything, it's better illuminated within herself. 

I may be reading too much into it, but it really struck me that she was told "pick one." And she couldn't help herself from wanting the one that spoke to her humanity. "Someone is making me learn". Claudia would be horrified!

[EtheltoTillie]

On 5/18/2018 at 12:28 AM, Umbelina said:

They talked to people in CHICAGO. 

After that?  They are going through DMV records and Utility companies.

The other embedded spies may not even know about the guy in Chicago, or his death.

If they know that the guy in Chicago was made, they should be more leery of being uncovered, that more intel has leaked. 

[Haleth]

That was brilliant.  Keri and Matthew were fantastic in their incredibly tense scenes together.  This is not going to end well for one or both of them, but the question is who will get to them first?  Stan or Claudia?

"We can't make you do it."  How is it that the most threatening character is the nice granny?  Elizabeth and Phillip better hope Stan figures it all out first.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

That was brilliant.  Keri and Matthew were fantastic in their incredibly tense scenes together.  This is not going to end well for one or both of them, but the question is who will get to them first?  Stan or Claudia?

"We can't make you do it."  How is it that the most threatening character is the nice granny?  Elizabeth and Phillip better hope Stan figures it all out first.

She's never really been the nice granny - she was deadly in Season 1, and she's still deadly, if less obviously so. She was undercover for most of the season (so to speak) and now she's back.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

She's never really been the nice granny - she was deadly in Season 1, and she's still deadly, if less obviously so. She was undercover for most of the season (so to speak) and now she's back.

I mean the persona she presents to the world.  We know she's not a sweet grandma but her neighbors don't.

[Clanstarling]

9 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I mean the persona she presents to the world.  We know she's not a sweet grandma but her neighbors don't.

That's true. Though it's definitely hard for me to view Margo Martindale's characters that way - since she always plays bad-asses I love. Plus, in real life, I rarely automatically think anyone is a sweet granny. Met too many who were not, and I know that I'm not. ;) (not a spy or killer though - just fast with the snark)

Edited May 19, 2018 by Clanstarling

[SunnyBeBe]

I was thrilled when Margo first appeared on this show. I've always been a fan of hers.  She hasn't disappointed either.  To me, she owns Claudia.  Maybe, she'll go out with a bang and not just fade away.  

[lazylou]

On May 17, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Bannon said:

The problem I had was that they waited too long to show E as having much of a stress response to killing as often as she has, whereas they did so earlier with Phil. They either needed to do so earlier with Liz, or write the story with far fewer murders. I would have preferred the latter.

At the end of last season, Elizabeth, after killing the woman/war criminal in Boston, said she wanted to go home.  They decided to take the kids and go...but as P listens to the tape from Kimmie's and resigns himself to staying, Elizabeth is shown looking lovingly at her American home and her well stocked clothes closet...as though she is succumbing to what she has always accused P of ...   Her devotion to the Cause is not the only reason she so quickly decides to stay.  In the first season, E apparently plans to raise the kids as American Socialists and maybe never going back, realizing her soft American children could not survive in the USSR...which plans of course  prove to be impossible.  I think throughout we see E fighting the temptations of capitalism. .. A temptation that makes her feel guilty.

It is true she is cold blooded and fanatic, but she has always cared about her children. She has seen the unhappiness of the Russian boy...and surely she realizes how difficult life would be for H and P in Russia. She is a more complex character throughout than some think.

[SunnyBeBe]

14 minutes ago, lazylou said:

At the end of last season, Elizabeth, after killing the woman/war criminal in Boston, said she wanted to go home.  They decided to take the kids and go...but as P listens to the tape from Kimmie's and resigns himself to staying, Elizabeth is shown looking lovingly at her American home and her well stocked clothes closet...as though she is succumbing to what she has always accused P of ...   Her devotion to the Cause is not the only reason she so quickly decides to stay.  In the first season, E apparently plans to raise the kids as American Socialists and maybe never going back, realizing her soft American children could not survive in the USSR...which plans of course  prove to be impossible.  I think throughout we see E fighting the temptations of capitalism. .. A temptation that makes her feel guilty.

It is true she is cold blooded and fanatic, but she has always cared about her children. She has seen the unhappiness of the Russian boy...and surely she realizes how difficult life would be for H and P in Russia. She is a more complex character throughout than some think.

I could buy this recent catharsis from Elizabeth when Claudia told her the real deal about Mexico.  What I did not buy from Elizabeth was the religious type marriage (seemed unlike her and not in line with her inner self. Love yes, but, not the religious type ceremony) and the flashback to her material possessions, clothes, appliances, etc. that influenced her decision to stay in America. (I have never seen that in her.)  I just didn't buy those two things. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

On 5/17/2018 at 11:30 PM, Erin9 said:

But Claudia did explain it all. She probably thought she could get Elizabeth back into line by articulating her POV.  Usually Philip is the thinking problem child. 

Re-watching the Claudia/Elizabeth scene I don't think either of them is being stupid by not killing the other immediately. Given the situation and what Elizabeth just learned it's really not a deal-breaker for her to say no on either side. Claudia probably thinks that Elizabeth just needs time to digest this new information and figure out how to justify it to herself. It's what she's always done before.

Likewise I don't think it's crazy for Elizabeth to think she can flat-out say no and walk out without Claudia immediately gunning for her given their relationship. If Elizabeth is telling her no, they're talking about it already. This kind of open conflict, even about something so serious, is something I think both of them would think they had space to have without immediately killing each other. Elizabeth has good reason to think that Claudia is giving her time to justify it to herself after she gets over being lied to about it. After all, Elizabeth was onboard with the general plan--what's a few more twists and turns in it?

What changes things is that Claudia doesn't know that Elizabeth really is different now. When she tells her not to tell anyone she no doubt means Philip because she knows Philip will encourage Elizabeth to resist her. But she doesn't know about what Philip said to her earlier and the effect Erica's had on her. Most importantly, she doesn't know about Philip/Oleg. Claudia thinks Elizabeth is safely isolated enough to go off and think because the Centre will see whatever she does and the Centre is behind this. It's Oleg that changes things. Elizabeth may let Claudia into her marriage too much but she doesn't let her in completely--it never even occurred to her to just report what Philip said. So Claudia didn't know that not only was Elizabeth already primed to think for herself on this one and act, but that she had a hotline to pick right up to do it.

I wonder if Oleg will get snatched by the FBI before he can get Philip's message!

19 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

And the thing about people who constantly shut the door on their feelings - when that door bursts open, they have no tools to unpack those feelings. They're just scattered all over, yammering for attention. The ones she's getting to first are directly related to the job and mission. The personal feelings? Those will take a while.

Also another thing that's been consistent throughout the season is that Philip is the only person with whom Elizabeth is honest emotionally. With Paige she's always being her mom and trainer. With Claudia she has to be just her professional self. With Erika she's Stephanie. With Jackson she's Wendy. It's only with Philip that she doesn't hold back. Sometimes what she says is wildly inaccurate (like accusing him of wanting to fuck Kimmy) but they are expressing her real feelings of resentment and anger etc. Her fight with Philip in the first scene and her continued anger at him at the end are still the only place she's letting her emotions out safely. She knows she can basically tell him he was right while still being pissed at him for betraying her.

It's an interesting contrast to Granny, too. When Elizabeth says she doesn't want to do it Claudia's still in strictly professional mode, assuring her that they can't "make" her do anything, reminding her that she doesn't want to throw away all her years of good service by telling anyone etc. She's still hitting all the notes one hits with Elizabeth to manipulate her. When Elizabeth is angry at Philip for refusing to go through with the Kimmy thing her response is all over the place. I mean, she's still saying things that are meant to convince him to change his mind but they're clearly expressions of the way she's really feeling: like Philip doesn't care about her and doesn't care about their country. He just wants to protect his own comfort. That's Elizabeth being hurt, not Elizabeth effectively guilting him into helping.

In their fight in this episode I do think, as was discussed before, that part of her is relieved that Philip's betrayal is about the country and all of it works together to make her finally start to understand where he was coming from before. It's not just a question of personal pleasure vs. duty.

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I could buy this recent catharsis from Elizabeth when Claudia told her the real deal about Mexico.  What I did not buy from Elizabeth was the religious type marriage (seemed unlike her and not in line with her inner self. Love yes, but, not the religious type ceremnoy) and the flashback to her material possessions, clothes, appliances, etc. that influenced her decision to stay in America. (I have never seen that in her.)  I just didn't buy those two things. 

I totally buy the religious ceremony because it's not religious if you don't believe in God. And given the choice between a traditional Russian ceremony in Russian by a Russian spy and a US justice of the peace I think the Russian stuff would far outweigh anything the guy wants to chant in old Slavonic about Rachel and Jacob. Christianity is a threat when it's influencing Paige, but it isn't a personal threat to Elizabeth or Philip.

I also don't think liking material goods influenced her to stay in the US. I do think she wants to stay and won't admit that to herself, but I don't think it's because she doesn't want to give up her stuff. I think it's just that she fears Russia having become a foreign land to her after so long. The material goods aren't necessary to her, but they're familiar.

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

After all, Elizabeth was onboard with the general plan--what's a few more twists and turns in it?

There's a big "twist and turn" ... the original (fake) plan given to Elizabeth was that the coup would be put into action IF Gorbachev gave-away DEAD HAND (and thus, by their thinking, made an American first-strike more attractive to the "nuclear war is survivable" hawks/tacticians.)   Elizabeth and the blue-pill squad would SAVE the USSR by preempting a near-suicidal give-away by Gorbachev.  

Now she finds out that she and the blue pill squad were going to be the fall-guys for the coup (or attempted coup if they failed (which the KGB could ensure if they wanted to)  and the Centre and Claudia's home team would "save the day" by preventing chaos /reestablishing order / killing the extremists -- either way, Claudia & Co.would be hailed as post-coup "heroes" (they controlled the optics) and the blue pill squad would be dead.  The "coup" was not about DEAD HAND, it was about deposing Gorbachev and all the reforms he stood for which many hailed as progress and hopeful. 

It's a lot for Elizabeth to absorb quickly ... and I think Claudia was assuming that Elizabeth had told no one anything and likely would continue to keep the secret (until they killed her, and Phillip for tidiness sake) Coming up with a satisfactory explanation for Paige would depend on the outcome.   Claudia also assumed (or had not yet considered) that E. understood the need to kill the page (for her own cover and for the team); assuming basically that Elizabeth wasn't suicidal and understood the rules of the game.  I think they both were blinkered by years of obedience and assumed obedience.

Edited May 19, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Dowel Jones]

50 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Likewise I don't think it's crazy for Elizabeth to think she can flat-out say no and walk out without Claudia immediately gunning for her given their relationship.

That would certainly shake up po' little Paige and her wide-eyed enthusiasm for espionage. 

Has there ever been a mention of Claudia's cover in life?  Is she supposed to be an older woman on a pension, or what?  Just curious.

[Penman61]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

... I know that I'm not. ;) (not a spy or killer though - just fast with the snark)

This is EXACTLY what a spy or killer would say...

[lazylou]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I could buy this recent catharsis from Elizabeth when Claudia told her the real deal about Mexico.  What I did not buy from Elizabeth was the religious type marriage (seemed unlike her and not in line with her inner self. Love yes, but, not the religious type ceremony) and the flashback to her material possessions, clothes, appliances, etc. that influenced her decision to stay in America. (I have never seen that in her.)  I just didn't buy those two things. 

Well, I actually agree with you...I had trouble at the end of last season buying her longing looks at her kitchen and her clothing.  I think those responses are very human, though, and we should have seen more of that I. Earlier seasons...

[Clanstarling]

12 minutes ago, lazylou said:

Well, I actually agree with you...I had trouble at the end of last season buying her longing looks at her kitchen and her clothing.  I think those responses are very human, though, and we should have seen more of that I. Earlier seasons...

This is probably out in left field, but I liken her response to divorces. Even if you're the one initiating the divorce, and are eager to get the hell out, there are generally some things that you'll leave behind that you know you'll miss, including creature comforts you might not be able to afford after the divorce. They don't change your mind, or your desire to leave. But you are sad to leave them behind.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

There's a big "twist and turn" ... the original (fake) plan given to Elizabeth was that the coup would be put into action IF Gorbachev gave-away DEAD HAND (and thus, by their thinking, made an American first-strike more attractive to the "nuclear war is survivable" hawks/tacticians.)   Elizabeth and the blue-pill squad would SAVE the USSR by preempting a near-suicidal give-away by Gorbachev.  

From Elizabeth's pov that's a big twist and turn but not for Claudia, imo, because if she thought that she wouldn't have told her. She must think that Elizabeth will understand and agree with her or she wouldn't be revealing herself. And, imo, it makes sense. All season the two of them have been reminiscing about the old days: WWII, worker's residences, eating rats, sex for food, etc. This is what they've both been ostensibly trying to communicate to Paige. Elizabeth herself said that when she leaves Claudia's apartment she's full of rage that she's back in DC 1987. She really was against what Gorbachev stood for.

What Claudia's revealing here in Claudia's mind, imo, is just that the situation is more dire than Elizabeth thought. It's not just that Gorbachev is maybe giving away this one important thing it's that he's already giving away *everything.* He's not one of them. He doesn't care about all the stuff they bond over with Paige. He wants the to be like the Americans--just as Elizabeth said to Philip. He doesn't respect the past.

Elizabeth has spent her whole life longing to be one of the defenders of Smolensk in WWII. I think Claudia has good reason to think that she'd see framing Nasterenko and Gorbachev as necessary to protect the country. Elizabeth's really never given her any reason to think otherwise. The main reason she even can think otherwise, imo, is Philip. He taught her that true patriotism can come in different temperaments and with different povs. He put himself back into the game he hated because he cared about the country. Claudia thinks he just dropped out because he couldn't take it or didn't care enough, affirming that she's the one who cares. He gave her a context, imo, to truly want to protect people like Nasterenko that she may honestly not have had otherwise.

3 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

This is probably out in left field, but I liken her response to divorces. Even if you're the one initiating the divorce, and are eager to get the hell out, there are generally some things that you'll leave behind that you know you'll miss, including creature comforts you might not be able to afford after the divorce. They don't change your mind, or your desire to leave. But you are sad to leave them behind.

Yeah, the trouble is really just that it's hard to separate material things from her life in general. Elizabeth was happy in that house. In that life. She raised her children there and fell in love there. Everything about her every day life is going to disappear and she loves all of it.

Kind of another nice link to this season and her art therapy which consisted of drawing every day objects. That house, that clothing, all the beautiful shoes are her. They don't define her, but they were part of her life.

[EtheltoTillie]

I saw a few posts today on the wigs and Elizabeth's hair. I have wanted to comment on the wigs for years. I too have worn wigs, for chemo-related hair loss. First, it is absolutely true about hiding the hair under the wig. Very hard to do and very uncomfortable. The other problem is that once you wear wigs you can spot them at fifty paces, even the best ones. That's why I've never understood how they use wigs for disguises for close encounters. I can't understand how they can not be detected at close range, not to mention during sex. They don't behave like normal hair. This has always affected my suspension of disbelief, while I otherwise love the show with the power of a thousand suns. 

[Scout Finch]

This is the first episode I can ever recall where I was unable to look away at ALL. There was something absolutely riveting about the faces of Elizabeth, Phillip and Stan throughout, and the tension and suspense were really ratcheted up. I think it's easily the best episode of the season.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Scout Finch

[Anela]

On 5/18/2018 at 9:32 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Mistakenly quoted from another thread - 

 

On 5/17/2018 at 5:14 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Breaking Bad already did that one.

I know. 

[duVerre]

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

I saw a few posts today on the wigs and Elizabeth's hair. I have wanted to comment on the wigs for years. I too have worn wigs, for chemo-related hair loss. First, it is absolutely true about hiding the hair under the wig. Very hard to do and very uncomfortable. The other problem is that once you wear wigs you can spot them at fifty paces, even the best ones. That's why I've never understood how they use wigs for disguises for close encounters. I can't understand how they can not be detected at close range, not to mention during sex. They don't behave like normal hair. This has always affected my suspension of disbelief, while I otherwise love the show with the power of a thousand suns. 

As another wig-wearer, I am with you a thousand percent on this. If you don't want someone to know you're in a wig, don't get physically involved on any level--all the way from necking to the throes of passion. But I decided, six seasons ago, that in order to enjoy The Americans, I would have to believe six impossible things before breakfast. And I've been SO rewarded. 

[magemaud]

4 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Has there ever been a mention of Claudia's cover in life?  Is she supposed to be an older woman on a pension, or what?  Just curious.

I don't recall Claudia doing anything besides handling agents and wasn't she gone the second (or third) season when Gabriel took over? I'm also curious what she does all day in that apartment. Gabriel's apartment was depressing enough, but hers is just bleak. Or am confusing one or both with bare bones safe houses? Aside from talking occasional walks in the park, how does she fill the time between Elizabeth and now Paige's visits? 

edited to add, I'm recalling now how Philip and Elizabeth's relationship with Claudia soured for some reason and briefly they were handled by Kate before Gabriel came on the scene the third season 

Edited May 19, 2018 by magemaud