S06.E06: Rififi

[MisterBluxom]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

There have been 75 episodes, and Keidrich Sellati has been credit only in 10 of them. I don't have a precise number, but of the remaining 65, there have been a lot where his role has been as minimal as Holly Taylor's was this past week. For what is a family drama at heart, I think it odd that one of four people in the family has received so little screen time.

I'd really like to know what is going on there. I would guess there is some kind of conflict that no one will talk about.

Maybe his parents object to the way he is being treated? Maybe the show runners have some kind of complaint about him?

This is just so bizarre that I figure there must be something going on and that we will learn the truth only some ten or twenty years from now. Something is just not right here.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Gotta say, Philip's reaction seems far more human to me than the one where a grown man's kid casually mentions that his friend's father is willing to give him advice about his failing business and he has no embarrassed reaction because he's just so overcome with relief and pride at the kid's ingenuity for asking about scholarships and getting in on his friends' well-paying summer job. What Henry's doing is great, but it's still a sensitive issue for Philip. He feels guilty about not taking care of his employees and Henry's not the only one in the family casually reminding him he's a disappointment at every opportunity. And yet he still managed to find it within him to be completely supportive of his son's need to go to the fancy prep school. Henry's getting pretty much everything he wanted here--and he's had his tuition paid for by Dad for 3 years. 

 

All I can say, as a human with 3 children to get through college, and a business to run, is that if my education plans for my children were threatened with demise, because of problems with my business, and one of my children came up with a viable plan to obtain needed scholarships, and to earn 6 grand in 10 weeks of summer, my feelings of embarrassment, over my business problems becoming known to wealthy strangers, would be so distant to my feelings of relief, that the embarrassment would barely register. Maybe I'm the weirdo.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I'd really like to know what is going on there. I would guess there is some kind of conflict that no one will talk about.

Maybe his parents object to the way he is being treated? Maybe the show runners have some kind of complaint about him?

This is just so bizarre that I figure there must be something going on and that we will learn the truth only some ten or twenty years from now. Something is just not right here.

There's nothing bizarre or not right about it at all. They always had a whole story planned for Paige as the kid they told and Henry was always the kid who wasn't in the know. so they didn't have as much of a story for him.

[Umbelina]

I just explained how the rest of the conversation could have easily happened @sistermagpie.  First, the standard interview question "Why do you want this job?"

I said:  I envision the conversation with the other kid's dad as pretty natural.  He wanted that summer job, the dad asks why he wants it so much, and Henry, who has always been an open and honest kid, tells him he needs the money to pay for school.  The family business has hit some hard times from an expansion that didn't work out well, and Henry is finding and applying for scholarships as well.  The dad, impressed by this kid (because honestly, who wouldn't be impressed by a 15 or 16 year old pitching in to solve his own problems?) then volunteers that he too has had business problems in the past (these things happen kid!) and offers to help out with some advice if Philip might want to hear from someone who has been there himself.  Henry knows the guy is loaded and thinks, "wow, this might be a good client for dad too, and he has a bunch of rich friend who travel as well."  It was a lead for Philip.

What part of that seems improbable?  Sure it could have been something like "Hey my dad's a total loser at business and he wasted all this money remodeling, hired a bunch of people, bought the place next door to expand, quit paying attention to his clients, and now he's totally too broke to pay for my school next year, so can you please bail him out, and oh yeah, I suppose maybe give me a job for the summer?  I suppose I'll have to spend a ton of time applying for more scholarships too, damn it, I really wanted to go surfing in Hawaii with the guys all summer instead.  ... You would help my dad out, wow, cool!  He's such an idiot about business, it would be great!  Could you maybe buy a trip from him too, and you know, send your rich friends to him so they will too?

I'd say Henry's "school driven" right now, which?  Most parents would be thrilled about.

Also, what in the world is wrong with wanting to be around the people who help shape the country, make the decisions, hire the workers, run for Senator or Governor or President?  Why wouldn't Henry want to associate with them, and maybe someday be them, run a company, or fund scholarships for kids, or BE President?  Dismissing all that as "money driven" just doesn't work for me

Edited May 4, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

I also have to say that the notion that Phil and Liz are good parents, which the writers have said of them, even falls apart looking through the prism of Henry. This kid is on the precipice of joining the elite of the elite. Excellent student at an elite prep school, also a star hockey player. This is Harvard material. Or anywhere else. Even if you think the pursuit of money is evil, getting through this door gives huge opportunities for a productive life of integrity and impact.

That is hugely threatened if Phil and Liz get busted. For what? To allow the neo-Stalinists to overthrow Gorbachev? If those are good parents, I don't wanna see the bad ones!

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

All I can say, as a human with 3 children to get through college, and a business to run, is that if my education plans for my children were threatened with demise, because of problems with my business, and one of my children came up with a viable plan to obtain needed scholarships, and to earn 6 grand in 10 weeks of summer, my feelings of embarrassment, over my business problems becoming known to wealthy strangers, would be so distant to my feelings of relief, that the embarrassment would barely register. Maybe I'm the weirdo.

I guess nobody knows how they'd react until they're in that situation but Philip's reaction seems pretty normal to me. It's not like he threw some giant temper tantrum and threw Henry out of the car. He had a reaction in the moment to the word "failure" in that context and was less than eager to go to the guy hat in hand to possibly receive unhelpful advice. Of course, I also don't know if you're shelling out money on an exclusive prep school because it would derail your children's education plans to be at a good local school or if everybody in the family is telling you you're a failure as a human being, which Philip seems to be going through. Philip may very well be feeling emotions about his situation that you wouldn't be so he's not going to react the same way.

It's similar to when he blew up at Paige when she said he "never helped anybody." He was the parent who was supportive of her interest in religion, but she stepped on a sore spot when she said he wasn't helping anybody. Objectively you could make the same argument, that his pride and relief in her desire to help others should have made his feelings of despair so distant that they would barely register, but that's not how humans generally work.

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What part of that seems improbable? 

I didn't think it was improbable. I thought it was totally probable and that Henry didn't say anything intentionally bad about Philip at all, but that it was still normal that Philip would cringe at it.

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, what in the world is wrong with wanting to be around the people who help shape the country, make the decisions, hire the workers, run for Senator or Governor or President?  Why wouldn't Henry want to associate with them, and maybe someday be them, run a company, or fund scholarships for kids, or BE President?  Dismissing all that as "money driven" just doesn't work for me

There's nothing particularly wrong with wanting to associate with the kind of people at this school, but that can't be separated from class and money.

I mean, why do the people who help shape the country, make decisions, hire the workers and run for Senator, Governor and President find themselves clustered at a private school with a hefty tuition in adolescence? The mediocre legacy student at this school automatically has a leg up on running the country that he would never have if he was at a poorly funded public school. It's an upper class school that makes upper class people.

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I also have to say that the notion that Phil and Liz are good parents, which the writers have said of them, even falls apart looking through the prism of Henry.

But obviously when they say they are good parents they're not talking about the lie at the center of their life that could blow everything up. They mean their interactions and care of the kids, which was good. When Henry's life gets blown up it'll be a huge blow, but if he manages to recover and have a good life anyway it'll probably be in large part due to his secure childhood.

Edited May 4, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I guess nobody knows how they'd react until they're in that situation but Philip's reaction seems pretty normal to me. It's not like he threw some giant temper tantrum and threw Henry out of the car. He had a reaction in the moment to the word "failure" in that context and was less than eager to go to the guy hat in hand to possibly receive unhelpful advice. Of course, I also don't know if you're shelling out money on an exclusive prep school because it would derail your children's education plans to be at a good local school or if everybody in the family is telling you you're a failure as a human being, which Philip seems to be going through. Philip may very well be feeling emotions about his situation that you wouldn't be so he's not going to react the same way.

It's similar to when he blew up at Paige when she said he "never helped anybody." He was the parent who was supportive of her interest in religion, but she stepped on a sore spot when she said he wasn't helping anybody. Objectively you could make the same argument, that his pride and relief in her desire to help others should have made his feelings of despair so distant that they would barely register, but that's not how humans generally work.

I didn't think it was improbable. I thought it was totally probable and that Henry didn't say anything about Philip at all, but that it was still normal that Philip would cringe at it.

There's nothing particularly wrong with wanting to associate with the kind of people at this school, but that can't be separated from class and money.

I mean, why do the people who help shape the country, make decisions, hire the workers and run for Senator, Governor and President find themselves clustered at a private school with a hefty tuition? The mediocre legacy student at this school automatically has a leg up on running the country that he would never have if he was at a poorly funded public school. It's an upper class school that makes upper class people.

But obviously when they say they are good parents they're not talking about the lie at the center of their life that could blow everything up. They mean their interactions and care of the kids, which was good. When Henry's life gets blown up it'll be a huge blow, but if he manages to recover and have a good life anyway it'll probably be in large part due to his secure childhood.

I didn't have an issue with how Phil was written in that scene. It was within the realm of the normal. I was just pushing back on the notion that Henry had committed some notable faux pass or misdeed. In context, I think Henry's loose lips barely warrant mention as doing something wrong.

[Umbelina]

I have no problem with the way Philip reacted either, of course he is embarrassed that he fucked up a well-running business, he was already embarrassed, and now a successful stranger knows as well.  That was perfectly normal.

My only point is the Henry did nothing wrong, and is in no way a bad person to try to figure out how he would be able to graduate with his class.

If I'd had that opportunity, I would have held on to it with both hands too, and done exactly what Henry is doing, and money is not my motivating issue.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Umbelina

[hellmouse]

39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

46 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I'd really like to know what is going on there. I would guess there is some kind of conflict that no one will talk about.

Maybe his parents object to the way he is being treated? Maybe the show runners have some kind of complaint about him?

This is just so bizarre that I figure there must be something going on and that we will learn the truth only some ten or twenty years from now. Something is just not right here.

There's nothing bizarre or not right about it at all. They always had a whole story planned for Paige as the kid they told and Henry was always the kid who wasn't in the know. so they didn't have as much of a story for him.

They were also faced with the fact that the actor was growing IRL while the time in the show was moving slowly. The first couple of seasons picked up very quickly after the previous ones. Sometimes there were episodes that started literally minutes after the previous ep. There would be no explanation for one of the main characters obviously having grown several inches when everyone else was still wearing the same clothes from the day before (in the show). So that was a constraint they had to deal with that may have impeded giving Henry a more prominent storyline. 

I'm glad we're seeing him now. For both P&E, he's been a reminder of the past and a catalyst for moving forward. I like it.

[Erin9]

Henry is, to me, obviously interested in mixing with the elite classes. That’s why he had to go to the boarding school. That’s the world he wants to live in. Not the upper middle class one he grew up in. Public school wasn’t good enough. Private school wasn’t good enough. (The travel agency was boring.) You can go to Ivy League schools from either of those two places. Boarding school is completely unnecessary for that.  And if Henry is as smart and well rounded as he seems to be, it wouldn’t be that difficult. But the class of people he gets to mix with in boarding school-very different. That’s the big separator imo. 

IMO- having Henry be the most motivated we have ever seen him to go to boarding school-and stay- speaks volumes about where he wants to go in life. It’s not typical American. It’s not even over achiever American. It’s something else. It’s elitist. He’s looking to be in the top 1%. 

Again- being motivated, a planner, problem solver are all good things. 

I just see a big disconnect between Paige, Elizabeth and Philip who are clearly motivated by causes/helping others and Henry’s desire to mix with the elite. Doesn’t mean he can’t/won’t/has no interest in doing good. But that doesn’t seem to be what is driving him right now. Which is okay. Henry is driven by, imo, what he gets out of boarding school. Connections. Networking. That seems to interest him a lot. And that’s not a bad thing per se.  And, yes, he has other interests- like hockey. 

But what you get out of boarding school more than anything is status and connections. That’s what really sets it apart. 

If I set aside the writers apparent desire to have both their kids out of the house this season- then I have to wonder what are they trying to say about Henry and boarding school. He wants to be with the elites is what I get out of it. 

[Umbelina]

Or, you get the power connections to actually have a huge impact on change, on doing something good.  Even knowing the people in power means you would have more influence about things you cared about. 

It depends on how you look at it, and we don't know Henry's motivations, because the show hasn't bothered to tell us. 

Henry could be more influential if he survives that wanna-be-spy Paige ever will.

[Erin9]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Or, you get the power connections to actually have a huge impact on change, on doing something good.  Even knowing the people in power means you would have more influence about things you cared about. 

It depends on how you look at it, and we don't know Henry's motivations, because the show hasn't bothered to tell us. 

Henry could be more influential if he survives that wanna-be-spy Paige ever will.

Maybe. But since he’s not saying it, instead he keeps talking about connections and networking and his desire to stay in an elite school, what I hear is he’s driven to live like the elite. Boarding school is just so important to him. 

They have told us that Paige,Elizabeth and Philip are interested in changing the world. It seems significant for now that Henry has never talked like that or seemed motivated in that way. That could change- as in he’ll suddenly express it or he will change as a person. But for now, I don’t see it. 

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

They were also faced with the fact that the actor was growing IRL while the time in the show was moving slowly. The first couple of seasons picked up very quickly after the previous ones. Sometimes there were episodes that started literally minutes after the previous ep. There would be no explanation for one of the main characters obviously having grown several inches when everyone else was still wearing the same clothes from the day before (in the show). So that was a constraint they had to deal with that may have impeded giving Henry a more prominent storyline.

Yep. Also, I swear I heard (though I can't find a source now) that Keidrich Sellati had a broken leg or foot or something during one of the recent seasons, which may also have put a crimp in any major plans that involved Henry standing or walking.

Edited to add: Found it! It was during season 4: "I think we had long ago given up on trying to control Henry’s height. I don’t know how they did it on Webster and Diff’rent Strokes. All I can tell you is that Keidrich is a wonderful actor, but his growing is out of control. And we don’t even know how he’s going to come back for next season. Keidrich broke his ankle early in the season, which actually helped, since he was seated for so much of this season."

I definitely don't see any indication that there was tension between the actor and the producers or anything like that. When you cast an unknown child actor at the age of ten as a regular character in your television drama, you have to be prepared for it not to work out. The producers would have recast or written out the character years ago if they didn't like what Sellati was giving them.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think he was looking skeptical because of the very thing that played out. He's not comfortable with the new, more aggressive business model. Elizabeth is barely at the agency anymore and she's not working out missions with Philip so there's probably not much to overhear. He probably missed the days they whispered in their office with the printer running.

Yeah, my suspicion is that Stavos's firing is, yet again, something that's more of a character point than a plot point. It's very much in keeping with Philip's arc for this episode for him to take a good, hard look at the people involved in his little enterprise and conclude that the nice, inoffensive guy who's always been there when you need him is the one who isn't pulling his weight.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

Nevermind, as I was watching Rififi, you tube took it down...

Edited May 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[duVerre]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Nevermind, as I was watching Rififi, you tube took it down...

Oh no! I was going to tune in later tonight!

I am a huge Topkapi fan, so I figured Rififi would be up my street!

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Henry is, to me, obviously interested in mixing with the elite classes. That’s why he had to go to the boarding school. That’s the world he wants to live in. Not the upper middle class one he grew up in. Public school wasn’t good enough. Private school wasn’t good enough. (The travel agency was boring.) You can go to Ivy League schools from either of those two places. Boarding school is completely unnecessary for that.  And if Henry is as smart and well rounded as he seems to be, it wouldn’t be that difficult. But the class of people he gets to mix with in boarding school-very different. That’s the big separator imo. 

Yeah, there's a familiar shorthand meaning to elite boarding school and if they meant something else by it I think they would have explained it, not lean into it with words like "fancy," "country club" "the students wear neckties" and, probably most wink-wink, "capitalize"

The frustrating thing for me is that this is just being used as another way to play Philip as an overwhelmed, inadequate middle class entrepreneur who doesn't have enough money instead of using it as a story to illuminate him as a secret Russian immigrant spy. I don't want to see Philip Jennings, I want to see "Philip Jennings."

[Cthulhudrew]

Nice to see Henry get some plot and scenes for once, although I have to admit I was half-expecting by the end of the episode he'd say something to Phillip like "What's wrong with mom? Is it her spy shit again?"

[anonymiss]

On 5/3/2018 at 4:37 PM, whiporee said:

I found myself feeling extremely sorry for both Paige and Henry because they had parents who weren't really parents. Philizabeth had kids as props and had been conditioned in their training to not develop attachments. And yet there were these two kids, with secretive parents who carried beliefs they kept hidden that were completely contradictory to what they had been taught everywhere they turned. It really became clear tonight, that neither Phillip or Elizabeth has any way to actually talk to their son. Henry's whole life -- literally, his whole existence -- has just been one lie after another. Nothing -- nothing at all -- is real. Phillip and his conversation in the car, where the kid is trying to help out his father and Phillip has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of how to respond. Because he sees the kid not as a person but as a prop. The same thing in the slot car place, when Phillip is trying to go through a motion of how a father and son acts together, but he's so frustrated because he has an instinctual love for his child but has no way of actually feeling it or expressing it. Complain all you want -- that's some seriously good writing there. 

 

Those are two instances of something very normal from two very loving, but imperfect parents: it's perfectly normal to be out of touch w/ your teenagers or withhold expressing your "adult" issues onto them. I've seen countless examples of Philip and Elizabeth's love for their children that many children can only be so fortunate to have.

Edited May 5, 2018 by anonymiss

[RedHawk]

16 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The bigger question is why were both boxes open? 

The only thing worse is watching people drink out of empty coffee cups or old Cheers episodes where the drinks never seem to look the same from one minute to the next. 

Like my mother and I, maybe Phillip mixes them. Phillip also poured a big cup of coffee that morning after he and Liz had sex again. 

13 hours ago, Bannon said:

I didn't have an issue with how Phil was written in that scene. It was within the realm of the normal. I was just pushing back on the notion that Henry had committed some notable faux pass or misdeed. In context, I think Henry's loose lips barely warrant mention as doing something wrong.

The only issue I have with that scene is that it was one of the very few times I’ve ever seen Matthew Rhys not ace the acting.

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm just amazed at how Matthew's voice seems so much lower in tone as Philip, than his regular real life voice. When he speaks as Matthew, it startles me. lol 

Edited May 5, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

I definitely don't see any indication that there was tension between the actor and the producers or anything like that. When you cast an unknown child actor at the age of ten as a regular character in your television drama, you have to be prepared for it not to work out. The producers would have recast or written out the character years ago if they didn't like what Sellati was giving them.

Yeah, I think with kid actors it's really tricky on a lot of levels. What works when they're younger doesn't always work as they get older. The height thing, though, is the least of it for me. It's not as if KS is 7 feet tall or something. My dad and his sisters were all tall (the "short" sister was 5'10"), but my cousins are all over the place. 

KS breaking his foot might have limited Henry's story that season, but if they really wanted to give Henry a story, they would have figured out a way to do it. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm just amazed at how Matthew's voice seems so much lower in tone as Philip, than his regular real life voice. When he speaks as Matthew, it startles me. lol 

 

And when he speaks in his natural accent. I saw Matthew and Keri on Colbert just before the premiere, and they were so delightful and beautiful that it was a real shock seeing them in the first episode. Naturally, Elizabeth looked haggard, but I didn't think Philip looked as good as others did, since I'd just seen him truly relaxed and happy (seeming) in his real life.

Anyway, it was a great reminder of just how good they both are.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Clanstarling

[SunnyBeBe]

Henry's always shared too much information, imo.  I get why he went into the thing about his dad's business, because he was really focused on his school tuition, though. I wonder why P & E didn't instill a little more discretion with him. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Erin9]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, there's a familiar shorthand meaning to elite boarding school and if they meant something else by it I think they would have explained it, not lean into it with words like "fancy," "country club" "the students wear neckties" and, probably most wink-wink, "capitalize"

The frustrating thing for me is that this is just being used as another way to play Philip as an overwhelmed, inadequate middle class entrepreneur who doesn't have enough money instead of using it as a story to illuminate him as a secret Russian immigrant spy. I don't want to see Philip Jennings, I want to see "Philip Jennings."

 

Beyond that, Henry and boarding school is probably meant to further separate him from his family. What primarily motivates them isn’t what primarily motivates him. 

It’s such a dichotomy- I feel like this season has a mix of the best writing for Philip, where we’ve seen the last 5 seasons come together to give us some incredible moments with Elizabeth, Paige, Oleg, Stan, Kimmie, even a bit with Henry....and some of the worst- dealing with financial issues. Amazing the same writers did this. 

I get that they seem to want to tell some story on capitalism, but seriously- what a waste in the last season imo. Who really cares. Especially if it’s just a way of saying Philip screwed up over and over. Would it kill the writers to let him get credit for something from someone? Apparently. 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm just amazed at how Matthew's voice seems so much lower in tone as Philip, than his regular real life voice. When he speaks as Matthew, it startles me. lol 

I once happened to read a little article with some British actor who worked in the US a lot and he was giving some basic tips. One of them was to lower your voice because Americans for some reason speak in a lower register. I immediately thought of MR and wondered if he was thinking that or if he just instinctively lowered his voice because as a kid he started doing the accent to imitate the opening of the A-team.

In that one flashback where he's with Irina his voice is more like his natural pitch. My head canon is that Philip also lowers his voice when he speaks English.

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

KS breaking his foot might have limited Henry's story that season, but if they really wanted to give Henry a story, they would have figured out a way to do it. 

Yeah, I don't think the broken foot was that big of a deal. I remember one scene where they just had him leaning on the counter while Elizabeth stood behind it. He hid his height, she hid her pregnancy.

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Henry's always shared too much information, imo.  I get why he went into the thing about his dad's business, because he was really focused on his school tuition, though. I wonder why P & E didn't instill a little more discretion with him. 

I always thought the opposite in the past. It used to be very hard to get info out of Henry--every time Stan tried he failed. I used to think Henry was just naturally more cagey but now it seems like it was more that Henry really was just too disinterested in stuff to remember the information or bother sharing it.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Beyond that, Henry and boarding school is probably meant to further separate him from his family. What primarily motivates them isn’t what primarily motivates him. 

The more I think about this the more I think you do have a point. First, there's obviously this split between the male and female side. Both Philip and Henry are dealing with money all the time; Elizabeth and Paige are dealing with feeling strong and the money problems somehow don't touch them at all. But Henry's money issues aren't pulling him down; they're just inspiring him to find solutions that invigorate him.

It's very possible to write a story like Philip's and have it be compelling, but there's simply no stakes in this one given his character. Breaking Bad and Mad Men both had middle class white guys do extreme things connected to money and it was compelling, but in those cases it was clear how the money issue reflected something fundamental in their character. It was a believable motivator. With Philip it's just an irritation for him and for us. If he solved the money issue it would be good not because it would be some personal triumph for him (as it is in a way for Henry to solve his tuition issues), it would just make it so he wouldn't have to think about this stuff anymore.

The issue of ambition doesn't bring Philip and Henry together. It's an ill-fit for Philip. This is another reason why he doesn't react with pride at Henry solving his money problems the way some parents would. He supports what he's doing, is glad that he can have what he wants, but it's not a situation where the child is unwittingly fulfilling his parents' greatest dreams for him, if that makes sense. Some people have a different relationship to ambition than others.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I get that they seem to want to tell some story on capitalism, but seriously- what a waste in the last season imo. Who really cares. Especially if it’s just a way of saying Philip screwed up over and over. Would it kill the writers to let him get credit for something from someone? Apparently. 

IKR? He's already spent several seasons on the defensive against the KGB who see his moral positions as a weakness. Now he has to suck at something he cares about less. He's like a retiree who's taken up golf because that was his relaxing reward. So he bought spiffy clubs and a club membership and now we have to watch him get frustrated in a sand trap every day long after he's figured out he doesn't really like golf.

Edited May 5, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I think we are seeing a man caught between two worlds, two systems, two countries, two ways of life, and neither one is a good fit for him.

While I agree that it's certainly boring action-wise to see Philip dealing with the consequences of bad business decisions?  It really is kind of fascinating on a psychological scale, and it's in good hands with Rhys to see that Philip really is struggling with some pretty big issues.  How much more effective that could have been, if they used those Travel Agency worries to show more flashbacks of his desperate poverty until the KGB snatched him up as a teenager!  Did the show-writers do it in the most compelling way?  Sadly, no.

Philip gave up on the KGB, except for the Kimmy operation.  He did it because it was killing him to do that kind of work anymore, his soul "felt like shit all the time."  While he still cared about his country, he was honest enough to admit that he enjoyed many things about the USA, "the electricity works all the time" and the abundance of food, the ease of clothing shopping, the entertainment, and certainly the cool cars.  He was already torn, already straddling two worlds, but Elizabeth, whom he loved, would not even consider betraying her country and defecting, so even though he got out?  He was still stuck, he still lived with it every single day.

Speaking of his days?  They were now much less crowded, both kids busy with their own lives, Henry away at school, Paige spending her time with her mother training, or off at school.  At the same time, the KGB had to use his wife more and more, to make up for his absence.  She was gone more often, and even when she was home, she was exhausted.  Even though it was her idea for him to "get out" she couldn't help but resent that, because it made her work even more dangerous, and more busy.  They grew apart.

With nothing else to do really, Philip threw himself into the Travel Agency, he read books on business, and because of that, expanded, modernized, redecorated, and those books also obviously talked to him about motivating and delegating.  It was too much too fast, and it all went to hell.  So where does that leave him now? 

Right where we see him.

I think the story could have, and in some ways has been compelling, but yeah, I agree, it just misses the mark.  I'm not completely sure why, because this is the story of spies, of marriage, of family, of ideology, and Philip is the one who can't seem to make any of it work.  He hated being a spy, but that is what he is trained to do, and it did give his life purpose.  He thought he was beginning to be able to replace that with "The American Dream" but now that is making him feel like shit all the time too.  On top of everything else, he's losing his marriage, the one motivation for him that was always solid.

Does he even like Elizabeth anymore?  Not much.  She let a seven year old boy find his parents brutally murdered and dead in their large pools of blood.  She's working against the leader of the USSR, who is trying to modernize a bit, and who is working for nuclear disarmament.  She doesn't have a physical relationship with him anymore, snaps at him all the time, shows no respect for him, and just tried, and for a while succeeded in honeypotting him.  She dismisses him rudely, with great disdain, whenever he tries to talk with her.  He would have told her about Oleg, or at least he desperately wanted to discuss the options about disarmament and Gorbachev with her, to decide what to do together, but she rejected him completely.

He doesn't like her.  He does still love her.

He realizes that he may lose her forever, because she may very well die during this rescue mission of the Chicago version of Philip.  For Elizabeth to admit she needs help, to call her son to "chat" for one last time when she never does that?  He knows.  He is a man at the crossroads, and both roads lead to awful things, but one of those roads has Elizabeth, who is in deep trouble.  He chooses her.

If they had just included flashbacks of Philip's childhood during his despair, helplessness, and embarrassment about the Travel Agency?  I think we all might have loved this story.  It's definitely a "setting the table" story, all of this is what leads Philip to the end, whatever that end is.

Oh, and I like Henry, and see absolutely nothing that indicates he's "bad" for wanting to continue at the private school.  At all.  He's still a very caring child, who immediately sees both his parents emotional states, and is worried about them.  He's shown both initiative and the willingness to work for what he wants, not expect it to be just handed to him.  He's the success story here, and by that I don't just mean in a capitalist sense, I mean as a person, and I really hope he makes it out alive.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[KBrownie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, and I like Henry, and see absolutely nothing that indicates he's "bad" for wanting to continue at the private school.  At all.  He's still a very caring child, who immediately sees both his parents emotional states, and is worried about them.  He's shown both initiative and the willingness to work for what he wants, not expect it to be just handed to him.  He's the success story here, and by that I don't just mean in a capitalist sense, I mean as a person, and I really hope he makes it out alive.

I agree.  I see nothing wrong or atypical about anything he's doing.  He wants to do well and succeed and is doing what he can to make it happen.  Why should he just sit back and accept that he has to give up something important to him if he sees a way around it and he's willing to work for it?  He's not going beyond what he can reasonably accomplish and achieve, unlike his dunce of a sister.  Between the two, I see him as the more mature and well-rounded one.  What exactly is Paige really accomplishing?  Who is she helping in the grand scheme of things?  No one.  She isn't even really helping Elizabeth, just making more work for her.  Henry isn't helping anyone either, but at this point and stage in his life, he isn't supposed to be.  His only focus right now should be graduating high school, getting into college, and being a decent person.  The typical teenager.   I don't really understand criticizing Henry, but then praising Paige the traitor in the same breath for wanting to "help people."  I would call what she's doing much more concerning than Henry.  She's playing spy but has little to no awareness of what she's really involved in.  And again, she's all snotty and looking down her nose at people, but has accomplished absolutely nothing.  I guess she beat up a couple of guys, one of whom wasn't doing anything to her, but saving the world like she thinks?  Not even close.  She's not even sacrificing anything to help her family, but she thinks she's doing so much for the rest of society.  Please.

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

I see nothing wrong or atypical about anything he's doing.  He wants to do well and succeed and is doing what he can to make it happen.  Why should he just sit back and accept that he has to give up something important to him if he sees a way around it and he's willing to work for it? 

 

42 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

I don't really understand criticizing Henry, but then praising Paige the traitor in the same breath for wanting to "help people."

I think there's some misunderstanding going on because I don't think anyone at all is saying that Henry should do any of those things. He looks after his own interests and it's perfectly fine and hurts no one, and when he's not doing that he seems pretty pleasant and decent.

But for me, also, noting the difference between what Paige thinks/says motivates her and what Henry says motivates him doesn't necessarily mean I'm praising the one or criticizing the other. "Wanting to help/make a difference/improve the world" simply is something that Paige, Elizabeth and Philip are characterized as making a focus in their life in one way or another. That doesn't mean that they are superior people or even that they actually are doing that. In many ways I think the show has shown that the people who don't want to change the world can make it better than those who do. Elizabeth goes around murdering people and doesn't put much thought into how she's really helping anyone. She just lets her faith convince her that it's true and takes no responsibility for people who get hurt along the way (hey, the kid was in the other room when she murdered his parents. Too bad if he's traumatized. Better that than... people knowing that a hockey player defected!).

Paige, to me, seems much the same way. She's open to any narrative telling her she's superior to other people and doesn't really seem like she likes people even the way Henry does. She can't even sleep with a guy without wanting to use him. Even if we assume that Henry has a better perspective about the family dynamics having been away, he still seems to me more generous and mature about the way he deals with his parents than Paige is. Not only does he not get angry at his parents for not providing his tuition, he doesn't demand praise for doing something to fix it himself. His acceptance of Elizabeth's disinterest in him is even more profound when Paige seems to still expect her parents to be focused on her all the time. I can't imagine her dealing with her mother never speaking to her on purpose, much less responding to it by wondering why she seems sad. Henry could have used that phone call to be cold to her or ask why she was suddenly interested. Sure he didn't take it upon himself to try to fix her problem, but by telling his father (out of what seems to be very good intentions) he fixed a lot.

Martha, for instance, is also not motivated by "helping people" in the way the other 3 Jennings are, but she's still a genuinely good person who was capable of being a good force in the world on a smaller scale.

So I honestly don't think that noting that Henry's current interests are different than the rest of his family's is meant to say that he's somehow more fundamentally selfish, it's just different. And it's neutral. "Wanting to help people" doesn't automatically make a character kinder or more compassionate or less selfish--on the contrary, it's often a supervillain origin story. Henry has never yet, that I remember, let his own self-interest lead him to really trample over somebody else's happiness, where as Elizabeth started this episode by dismissing the trauma of a child and the two people she murdered, and getting angry at her husband for not allowing her to convince him to hurt someone else (and himself along with her). She only reached out to people in this ep because she needed emotional support and she got it. She got it from Henry, who has every reason to resent her, and also Philip, the person she spent the episode abusing and that she herself claims only cares about himself. The two people who *aren't* claiming to save the world are the people who save her.

She didn't get it from Paige, for all their alleged bonding this season. Paige was once again protected from the harsh truths and just wants to come along herself.

I mean, Paige is criticized all the time so if it seems like people are praising her compared to Henry there's a good chance they're not. Or at least I'm not.

Edited May 5, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Miles]

Did hell freeze over? Elizabeth didn't kill anybody. She better make up for it nect episode or else she might actually seem human again.

[ThisIsMe]

Did anyone else think that Stan's Thanksgiving speech was a bit, well, overly patriotic, too anti-Soviet, etc.?  At least for Phillip.  He looked very uncomfortable for me.

Now I'm not sure who he is ultimately going to work for ... is he really helping Oleg and the Gorbachev supporters or is he back in the game to help Elizabeth and old-school, hard-liners?

That's what makes this series so great ... I never feel like I have it all figured out.

Heck, even Elizabeth shed a tear, drew a picture, and called her son.  

Amazing episode.  Stellar series.  Going to be hard to see it end.

[KarenX]

Henry didn’t dream up boarding school by himself. Someone else put the idea in his head—some other adult who took time to think about his future and what he might like and what might benefit him. And boarding school? It’s a school with a home and family built in, where people pay attention to him and care how he does.

Maybe he wants to save the world or live the Alex P. Keaton Dream for Young Republicans or who knows what. It’s irrelevant. Boarding school is more like a home than his home his. Of course he will do whatever he can to stay there. It’s self-protection, not self-interest.

Edited May 6, 2018 by KarenX

[dr pepper]

They've left the timeline a little vague, but shouldn't the soviets have other issues right now besides is their leader bringing them progress or selling them out? What about the balts breaking away? Or the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan? This was also the time we bagan to see stories about homegrown rock stars and organized crime.

[Sweet-tea]

On 5/3/2018 at 8:45 AM, teddysmom said:

Hopefully, the Sam Nunn Intern has a better intuition that most of the marks on this show and questions why an overly-friendly middle aged blonde keeps showing up in convenient places. Sigh...

They did a good job of casting the intern. He did look a little guarded. I would really enjoy seeing one of Elizabeth's ploy's fail and the mark see right through her. That would be so satisfying! I doubt it will happen though. She gets away with almost everything. 

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Sweet-tea said:

They did a good job of casting the intern. He did look a little guarded. 

As a film buff going back to my teenage years, I appreciated how likable the character came off. :)

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, dr pepper said:

They've left the timeline a little vague, but shouldn't the soviets have other issues right now besides is their leader bringing them progress or selling them out? What about the balts breaking away? Or the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan? This was also the time we bagan to see stories about homegrown rock stars and organized crime.

Both the war (in this era) between Armenia and Azerbaijan and the first Balkan state to try to break away (Estonia) began in 1988 (Estonia's declaration was a year after the events going on in these episodes which were in late 1987). While there was certainly internal strife leading up to these events, an Intermediate Range Nuclear Weapons Treaty between the two global superpowers (which is what the hardliners think is selling them out) is a pretty big deal.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, ThisIsMe said:

Now I'm not sure who he is ultimately going to work for ... is he really helping Oleg and the Gorbachev supporters or is he back in the game to help Elizabeth and old-school, hard-liners?

I don't see any reason to think he's backing the hardliners. Elizabeth is going to get an Illegal out of the country and she thought she was going to die. Nothing about helping her requires supporting the anti-Gorbachev coup. It might even help his work with Oleg if she opens up to him.

8 hours ago, KarenX said:

Henry didn’t dream up boarding school by himself. Someone else put the idea in his head—some other adult who took time to think about his future and what he might like and what might benefit him. And boarding school? It’s a school with a home and family built in, where people pay attention to him and care how he does.

He got the idea for boarding school because he liked a girl, Chris, whose family went there. There's no reason to think that Chris's father took much time at all to think about what Henry might like or might benefit him. He's just a St. Edwards alumnus who talks about his school and probably thinks any bright kid should go there, which is why he's sending his daughter there. His family paid attention to Henry and cared how he did. It was his parents who were helping him do homework, nagging him to study for tests, meeting with teachers and hiring tutors for him onscreen for the whole show.

8 hours ago, KarenX said:

Maybe he wants to save the world or live the Alex P. Keaton Dream for Young Republicans or who knows what. It’s irrelevant. Boarding school is more like a home than his home his. Of course he will do whatever he can to stay there. It’s self-protection, not self-interest.

Henry's home is just as much a home as any other kid at boarding school. Throughout the show Henry has consistently been out of the house because things outside his home interest him, not because he's ignored there. This is all onscreen.

6 hours ago, dr pepper said:

They've left the timeline a little vague, but shouldn't the soviets have other issues right now besides is their leader bringing them progress or selling them out? What about the balts breaking away? Or the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan? This was also the time we bagan to see stories about homegrown rock stars and organized crime.

It's November 1987. But we're only ever going to see things that our characters are working on. There's always been plenty of stuff going on both in the US and the USSR that we didn't see.

Edited May 6, 2018 by sistermagpie

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I freely admit that I am not the biggest Paige fan.  I still think it is a writing issue more so than an actress one.  Even if it were an actress issue, the writing still plays a huge part in it.   I am sure the actress would be fine in a different role.

I just get the feeling that Paige is being treated like Meg Griffin.  I can be critical up to a point, but I do think there is a point where the piling on gets to be way too much, and that is where I begin to back off on my criticisms.   I have no problem with being critical of the Paige character.  I just don't want to go too far in being critical of the actress.

Paige didn't have much of a role in this episode, I do thinks she will play a pivotal role down the line.   We have yet to see Henry and Paige have a conversation since Henry arrived home for Thanksgiving.  The adults are gone, and no one is there to monitor what Paige says.  This could get real interesting.
 

I think your position re the actor is certainly very compassionate. Good on you.

But when you speak of "down the line", are your referring to this show? Or to her entire career? I ask because there are only four episodes left in this show and it's not really a lot of time to resolve all the outstanding issues.

AAMOF, I'm sorry to say this. But I get the feeling we are going to get an ending like The Sopranos where very little of what we want explained will ever get explained and very little will be resolved. I hope that I'm wrong about this. But four episodes just doesn't seem like very much time to resolve everything that I'd like to see resolved. I have a feeling many people may well be very unhappy after the Finale.

[thegriswolds]

On 5/4/2018 at 9:39 AM, duVerre said:

That's possible, though I don't know why they would sometimes show up when she's not in full make-up and other times disappear. I rewatched "Great Patriotic War" yesterday and they're not visible at any time in that episode. Of course, maybe Elizabeth just got tired of wearing foundation. And maybe the marks show up next week because Elizabeth gets involved in some body contact we haven't seen yet.

Never have I ever obsessed about such a tiny detail! 

But I find the inconsistency bizarre, which then makes me think it's a deliberate choice.

I agree, I noticed them several times and thought they are definitely foreshadowing some illness.

[dubbel zout]

5 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I have a feeling many people may well be very unhappy after the Finale.

I can't think of a series finale—especially a drama—that wasn't somewhat polarizing.

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I can't think of a series finale—especially a drama—that wasn't somewhat polarizing.

I think a large factor - at least for me - is that I have invested more time and more concern into this single TV show than almost any other TV show ever.

For some reason, these characters have become very real to me. I genuinely care about their well being and their futures.

I know it's just a TV show and in some way, it's kind of silly for anyone to be so invested in something that is really just imaginary. I suppose it's a testament to the level of talent of the writers and the actors. I sense there will be a real void in my Wednesday evenings after this show ends its run and,somehow I sense this is one time I will not be alone.

Edited May 7, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Darrenbrett]

A few (somewhat random) thoughts after reflecting on this quality episode for a few days:

1.) The actor that played the intern/film buff is a remarkable actor. I completely bought into his portrayal of the character. For me, he WAS the character. It's rare that acting is so good it becomes invisible.

2.) I also noticed the marks on E's face, and HIV/AIDS definitely crossed my mind, too. And, while it fits with the era, I asked myself, would the show-runners really want to add that massive dynamic to the plot with four episodes left to wrap up the entire series? I doubt it. Not saying it's impossible, but it seems doubtful to me. Also, if it were meant to be a foreshadowing of HIV/AIDS, I think we would have had one of those long, brooding moments with E in front of a mirror, her face turned to the side with her regarding the blemish. 

3.) For me, the payoff with Stan is somewhat lessened by the fact that he's not in counter-espionage anymore. I would rather have had him directly involved in the slow building of the investigation into the illegals overt the last 3 years. But, beyond that, more than anything, what I REALLY want in one of the remaining episodes is a moment when Stan's intimate knowledge of P and E makes something click for him; in a way it wouldn't/doesn't click for Aderholt or anyone else on the team. And I want him to reflect on how his actions impacted Nina when it comes to his decision about what he's going to do about P and E. That would show character growth/complexity that would be compelling.

4.) With all the killings Elizabeth has committed, while she's not NEARLY as self-reflective as Philip -- obviously -- I still would have liked -- and still hope for (perhaps in vain) -- something equivalent to a  sleepless night or a traumatic recall for her around all she's done; re:the human cost for her cause, beloved though it may be. I mean, just in terms of writing, that would make her character more relatable and human. I don't expect her to do a 180, but some visible turmoil would be nice; beyond the chronic tiredness and nicotine addiction. Human beings, in real life, are complex. Lately she's been portrayed as a little too one-dimensional for me; and something's been lost a little, in terms of her relatability. What made her character dynamic for me was the internal conflict. I want much more of that in the final episodes.

All that said, I'm hyped to see how it all plays out. And, after having lived through several somewhat anti-climatic series endings, I'm fully prepared to not be fully satisfied. I'm not even sure that's possible (being fully satisfied). The lead-up, the unknowns, and the multiple possibilities are probably always more intriguing than any kind of final resolution, no matter how apt it is. Ultimately, I just want the show to be true to itself and to its characters in the wrap-up.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I think a large factor - at least for me - is that I have invested more time and more concern into this single TV show than almost any other TV show ever.

For some reason, these characters have become very real to me. I genuinely care about their well being and their futures.

I know it's just a TV show and in some way, it's kind of silly for anyone to be so invested in something that is really just imaginary. I suppose it's a testament to the level of talent of the writers and the actors. I sense there will be a real void in my Wednesday evenings after this show ends its run and,somehow I sense this is one time I will not be alone.

I'm fairly easy when it comes to finales. That is, I've only seen a few that really ticked me off (Bloodline, for one - but that was more than the finale), and I've rarely seen one that I loved (maybe Breaking Bad). I've been okay with some of the more polarizing finales I've watched (Battlestar Galactica, Lost). So I'm okay with...okay.

That being said, I am looking forward to the end - but my guess that no matter how much I love these characters, it is not going to end well for any of them. Maybe Henry. So I'm trying not to hold too many expectations about specifics.

[lucindabelle]

When you’re at an elite school, everyone you know is it lead to, and you quickly forget about that. I went to Stanford, and within 1/4, since everyone I knew was there, the fact that I went there became irrelevant.

 

This is all to say, that Henry wanting to stay at the place where he spent the past three years and has friends in an identity is surely does not make him an elitist, and that observation seems driven by things that are outside of the world of the show.

 

I guess I must be the only one who thought that Stan was making that speech because he has made Philip, and made him along time ago.

[Milburn Stone]

9 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

I guess I must be the only one who thought that Stan was making that speech because he has made Philip, and made him a long time ago.

I was getting an inkling of that, too.

But when Aderholt brings him into the "uncovering illegals" operation, Stan doesn't show the slightest sign of being on to the ones who are right under his nose. You'd think there'd have been a flicker of something going across his face, even if it was only for us to see.

[lucindabelle]

7 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I was getting an inkling of that, too.

But when Aderholt brings him into the "uncovering illegals" operation, Stan doesn't show the slightest sign of being on to the ones who are right under his nose. You'd think there'd have been a flicker of something going across his face, even if it was only for us to see.

Yes, but if indeed he had made him along time ago and cares about him, he has probably schooled him self for this very moment.

 

Or, of course. It’s also possible that what most of the board is saying is true and that Stan gives a speech full of exposition and bombast for no particular reason.

[qtpye]

24 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Yes, but if indeed he had made him along time ago and cares about him, he has probably schooled him self for this very moment.

 

Or, of course. It’s also possible that what most of the board is saying is true and that Stan gives a speech full of exposition and bombast for no particular reason.

Stan is just getting over the loss of Mr. and Mrs. Teacup. Mr. Teacup considered Stan a good friend and they watched Hockey together. His speech might have been wierd, but I could understand some of his motivation.

[SusanSunflower]

Henry is lucky to have found a group of peers in high school who are motivated and goal-oriented, rather than falling into the basement dwelling, video gameplaying crowd (with or without dope) so many young people end up in for a year or two before they move on to better or worse, at least that was my experience 40+ years ago that I have seen replicated in succeeding generations.  Kids without "prospects" or support or resources trying to figure out "what's next?" on graduating high school without a college-attached goal in mind. 

I've said in the past that Paige's lack of social life and interests (beyond adult approval seeking) telegraphed to me a good-student teenager ripe for a lack-of-direction identity crisis (for which being a momma mini-me isn't a cure).    As I also said in the past, I half-expected Paige to fall in love with and marry a would-be Pastor, off to Bible College, with at least 2 kids before age 20 -- marvelously making troublesome "choice" and "freedom" disappear. 

I begged to go to boarding school for my last two years (my parents went to very good schools, there was no way I expected us to afford more than that) to escape the daily grind of extreme boredom and my family's dysfunction which left me feeling like I was helpless drowning 24/7 -- I needed to raise my GPA and my study skills and felt a more competitive rigorous environment would help ... and help me get into the colleges I hoped to attend. 

It took until my 30's to realize how significant a factor "born to money" really is to the elite ... practically out of Jane Austen ... in choosing people-like-us as partners. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

This is all to say, that Henry wanting to stay at the place where he spent the past three years and has friends in an identity is surely does not make him an elitist, and that observation seems driven by things that are outside of the world of the show.

 

Actually, I think the same could be said either way. Elite, expensive boarding schools are elite, expensive boarding schools. All of Henry's dialogue about the school is about success--and there's nothing wrong with that. There's also different ways people can want to be elite, like being the best as opposed to mixing with rich people. Henry seems to want to be the best, imo. But if there's nothing wrong with it, why is it necessary to bring in other reasons that Henry never talks about? 

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

I guess I must be the only one who thought that Stan was making that speech because he has made Philip, and made him along time ago.

So why is he sitting around letting them kill people and steal intel? And not following him like Aderholt is following Harvest? Instead he's pretending to Aderholt that he hasn't already found the Illegals himself.

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

Or, of course. It’s also possible that what most of the board is saying is true and that Stan gives a speech full of exposition and bombast for no particular reason.

It's not exposition, though. He doesn't give us any facts at all, really. It's just Stan giving us his emotional state. He's psyched to bring in the Illegals the same way Elizabeth worked herself in a big anti-America/anti-Gorbachev state of mind after she got her mission. Stan's feelings will presumably be more conflicted once he has his friend to deal with but at this point he's just a pissed-off FBI agent who has no patience for these bastard Russian spies, one of which just murdered a couple in front of their kid.

In fact, Philip probably even made him feel this way more with his reaction to Stan telling him about the murders. Because Philip seemed to be upset by the idea, which probably either affirms Stan's feeling that the murders were horrible (that's what Philip said his reaction was about) or Stan's guilt at letting such a horrible thing happen.

[SusanSunflower]

At this point, she would probably never admit to wanting to be a stay-at-home mom, particularly after the disaster of the Tims and that raving threatening harpy that Mrs. Tim turned into.  Girls often don't decide such things ... pregnancies happen, people fall in love.   Elizabeth (in particular) and the "family secret"  "ruined" Paige's break for independence ...  which was oddly drawn since Paige DID interact with peers in the first episodes and then seemed overwhelmingly adult-centric.   Having mom around a lot might put the kibosh on socializing with peers and "boys" (don't remember, just remember the young folk fading way into the background in the food kitchen scenes.  I think Paige had lost interest when it became her duty to suck-up to Pastor and Mrs. Tim.) 

I think Paige had a stay-at-home mom in E during her childhood, even if E. sometimes "helped out at the travel agency" ....   Kids in preschool learn many lessons, including that Mommy gets jealous and/or regretful and how to manipulate them.  They may also learn that teachers are waaaay more patient than Mommy along with being told they "have to understand" all the pressure poor over-stressed mom's is under ...  Kids with stay at home moms get different shades of the same flavors ...  Still kids are curious about things that relate to their own timeline. or what they thought they knew.  I always feel bad about Paige losing "choice" .... even if she doesn't seem to notice. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[dubbel zout]

37 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Henry talked to his dad about his friend's father being a successful businessman, but all we have is Henry's word for it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to presume the friend's dad is successful. Just because it happened offscreen doesn't mean it isn't accurate.