S13.E18: Bring 'em Back Alive

[Reganne]

On 4/13/2018 at 8:40 PM, catrox14 said:

That doesn't really explain his "I save the world...a lot" in Scoobynatural when he was talking to Velma and Dean was actually hunting with him and in that haunted mansion. Remember when Sam said last season that twice is a pattern...Just sayin'...there is something at play here.

I just watched the episode and Sam actually says "We've saved the world ... a lot" so he was actually including Dean and Castiel in there.  In this episode he actually says to Gabriel "This is where I make the world a better place" while trying to relate to him.  As in hunting and with his family.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Reganne

[mertensia]

I is a perfectly acceptable word to use. Especially when you are trying to form connections to people.

What Sam was thinking: I need to keep trying to form a connection to Gabriel because A) we can use his help, and B) even if I can't, and he won't, I need to try and help him.

What Sam wasn't thinking: I've got to let poor shattered Gabriel know I AM the Man.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Reganne said:

this episode he actually says to Gabriel "This is where I make the world a better place" while trying to relate to him.  As in hunting and with his family.

That's weird. Because I wouldn't have just pulled that out if  my ass. Maybe I have eps confused but there is something he said in another episode recently that pinged weirdly with me on the "I" do things instead of "we". I'll have to my own research to see which episode that was. It was definitely something that stuck out to me besides this episode.

That said , it doesn't change my issues with the whole "We need you..... I need you", and "I make  the world a better place." When the show is  playing Dean Family theme, because Gabriel is NOT family to them. It was wrong  for the show to elevate Gabriel, who means nothing to Sam and Dean, to "family" and have Sam be the one ,not Cas, to talk about family to Gabriel.  And honestly if it was all bullshit from Sam, to get through to Gabriel, well, the show has now undermined the value of family  if they use that music for a false declaration of family.
 

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That said , it doesn't change my issues with the whole "We need you..... I need you", and "I make  the world a better place." When the show is  playing Dean Family theme, because Gabriel is NOT family to them. It was wrong  for the show to elevate Gabriel, who means nothing to Sam and Dean, to "family" and have Sam be the one ,not Cas, to talk about family to Gabriel.  And honestly if it was all bullshit from Sam, to get through to Gabriel, well, the show has now undermined the value of family  if they use that music for a false declaration of family.

Co-sign 100%.

[sarthaz]

14 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The simplicity is what I miss most of all.  It was one thing to be hunting a demon that killed your mother, while also hunting werewolves, vampires and ghosts.  But like you say, once you've literally spent time in Hell, and have had face-to-face conversations with God, it's tough to go back.  I wasn't in favor of Chuck being God, or God having a sister, but I did think that once they left, we would get back to the basics of hunting monsters again.  Unfortunately, that hasn't happened.  TPTB seem convinced that the Heaven/Hell saga is all fans are interested in, so I think we're stuck with it.  I can hope that at the end of this season, Lucifer and both Michael's will have been dealt with, but I've wanted that for a few seasons now, and I'm losing hope that it's ever going to happen.  

I miss it too. I didn't mind the Chuck/God thing in concept, but they've so royally fucked it all up that I kind of hate it now.  I read an interview with Dabb once where he talked about how easy it would be to check of a few fan-service things and please people, but that would be too easy, and that he and the writers want to challenge themselves to be better than that.  What bullshit.  Everything we see now is just checklist low-hanging fruit with no substance.  They're finding any excuse to bring back every fucking character the fans liked even if it makes no Chuck-damned sense.  I can buy that Rowena had a spell to survive death.  They've hinted at that in the past.  But Ketch?  No.  And Gabriel tricking both Lucifer and presumably God?  No.  And this whole AU storyline seems less and less about any real story arc and just an excuse to bring back dead characters.  Can't they just hunt a wendigo again?

[MysteryGuest]

I never really thought that Sam and Dean held that much lingering animosity toward Gabriel, so them thinking of him as on their side didn't seem strange to me.  Playing the family angle was a means to an end.  He's never met Jack, but Sam was trying to form a connection there to make him feel a responsibility to help them.  

[Bergamot]

One of the first thoughts I had when I saw the episode was, thank goodness they finally took the AU out of the sandbox! The snowy landscape was a refreshing change and quite beautiful, while still displaying the sterility and emptiness of the destroyed world. And watching Dean and Ketch in the AU was my favorite part of the episode. I liked the way the two characters played against each other in their interactions, and sorry, but I guess I like the actor who plays Ketch. (I'm not sure why I'm apologizing, except that so many really hated seeing him. Those who are not interested in Ketch should probably skip the rest of my comments!)

In a way, I think Ketch is a dark mirror to Dean. They each were raised and trained from childhood by their family to be used as a weapon against supernatural evil -- Dean by John, and Ketch by the British MOL (he tells Mary that the MOL is his family.) They both put a high value on duty and loyalty to their family. And, as Ketch pointedly tells Dean when he is trying to recruit him into working for the MOL, they are both killers. The difference is that Ketch is a sadistic psychopath, while Dean has a conscience.

I think that Ketch tried to use the "Code" of the MOL as a substitute for the conscience that he did not have. It allowed him to function as part of the group: if he acted according to the Code, then he was acting correctly. Plus of course there was the bonus: the MOL "kept him busy" by giving him the chance to kill a lot. Ketch described himself as "an incredibly good company man", and I think after he became disconnected from the MOL, he was at a loss, and was searching for a new place to belong.  Because he truly believed himself to be "one of the good guys" in the war against evil, he really could not understand why Dean and Sam would not let him join up with them.

I don't see how Ketch can be redeemed. He is like one of those people without a soul on the show, who can't be allowed to go free because they can't tell the difference between right and wrong. I think he is aware that he is missing something inside, but I find it hard to believe that he suddenly grew a conscience.

It makes sense to me that he misses the connection that he had in the MOL, which gave him the feeling that he was relevant, that his skills were respected, and that he was part of something important. It doesn't make sense to me that now he wants to wash the blood from his hands, even given how eager he is to team up with (in his eyes) his new best friend, Dean. I can see a Ketch who wants to work with Dean and who maybe even becomes attached to him, in his own way. But showing us a Ketch who is now remorseful for his sins is not the direction they should have gone.

On the other hand, if the show has him die doing something to help the good guys, to try to pay for some of the wrong he has done (as Gadreel or Metatron did), I think that would be the best thing Ketch can hope for as a way to go out.  JUST DON'T BRING HIM BACK AGAIN. Because it would ruin the point of the story and it would be just stupid. (I'm looking at you, Gabriel!!)

[gonzosgirrl]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's weird. Because I wouldn't have just pulled that out if  my ass. Maybe I have eps confused but there is something he said in another episode recently that pinged weirdly with me on the "I" do things instead of "we". I'll have to my own research to see which episode that was. It was definitely something that stuck out to me besides this episode.

That said , it doesn't change my issues with the whole "We need you..... I need you", and "I make  the world a better place." When the show is  playing Dean Family theme, because Gabriel is NOT family to them. It was wrong  for the show to elevate Gabriel, who means nothing to Sam and Dean, to "family" and have Sam be the one ,not Cas, to talk about family to Gabriel.  And honestly if it was all bullshit from Sam, to get through to Gabriel, well, the show has now undermined the value of family  if they use that music for a false declaration of family.
 

The thing is, even if Sam is just trying to connect with Gabriel, he's doing it to implore him to help them. I don't believe for a moment it's some altruistic gesture, and I wouldn't believe that if it was Dean, either. They need him back and on their team. Sam is talking about how they are alike, how they got out, but then 'my family needed me' and 'this is what I was put here to do, this is where I make the world a better place.' It just sounded self-centered to me, especially when he's trying to get Gabriel to work with the team. How about, 'this is what I was put here to do - to help my family make the world a better place.' Same message, 100% less ego.

Edited April 15, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Ria]

I just watched it so I’m late to the party. It basically sucked. I did like Charlie. And Asshat going up in flames. But everything else was boring and pointless. Why bring Gabriel back just to ruin him? 

[Reganne]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is, even if Sam is just trying to connect with Gabriel, he's doing it to implore him to help them. I don't believe for a moment it's some altruistic gesture, and I wouldn't believe that if it was Dean, either. They need him back and on their team. Sam is talking about how they are alike, how they got out, but then 'my family needed me' and 'this is what I was put here to do, this is where I make the world a better place.' It just sounded self-centered to me, especially when he's trying to get Gabriel to work with the team. How about, 'this is what I was put here to do - to help my family make the world a better place.' Same message, 100% less ego.

 

It's no more self centred than using Gabriel's grace without his permission IMO.  Both Sam and Dean were using Gabriel IMO.  That grace didn't belong to them regardless of what they were trying to do.  They're both using his Grace to help them get Jack and Mary back at this point.  Not to save the world.  At least Sam and Cas gave him back his grace and gave him the option to help them after.  That may not be case for next time though.  lol

Edited April 15, 2018 by Reganne

[gonzosgirrl]

I do absolutely agree giving him back his grace was the right thing to do.

I am a little surprised they didn't wait the 24hrs before doing it though. Much like there was no reason for Dean to go through Right!Now, neither did they have to immediately use what at this point is the only means they had to re-open the rift should Dean not make it back before it closed. At least a little time must have passed before Cas made it to the bunker - waiting a few more hours wasn't going to make much difference to Gabriel and they didn't know Assmodeus was on the way. Clearly neither Sam nor Cas were thinking about Dean possibly being stuck in AU. Their concern was only for Gabriel. Dean's choice to go was rash, but he went through believing Sam (and Cas) would be able to help if something went wrong. I do believe [they] thought Gabriel would help once he was healed, but there was no back-up plan if he didn't.

Edited April 15, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

IMO, this episode wasn't really about Gabriel at all other than to use him as a plot device. They destroyed his prior redemption, made his death meaningless and then ignored his relationship with Cas in favor of a false alignment with Sam. And I would be griping if they tried to align him with Dean also, despite their shared appreciation of porn. IMO, this was one long set up to take us back to Sam's Hell truama which was set up in the Sundry Villains ep with the Lucifer True Face reveal.  Maybe it is leading us back to Sam and Lucifer again. I don't know.

Truly, I cannot find ONE good or bad reason for Cas to be completely out of that conversation. It's really awful.

And to that point of Cas and Gabriel's relationship being diminished here, I have another tick in my "not so sure that's really Cas" list.  Cas said to Gabriel "You can't turn your back on YOUR father's creation". Why didn't Cas say "OUR father's creation"?   That's either sloppy writing or it's intentional.  Chuck is Cas' father too.  So what's up with that, Big Guy (aka PBTB)?

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's either sloppy writing or it's intentional.  Chuck is Cas' father too.

I'd go with sloppy writing. Cas didn't even acknowledge Chuck as being his father in season 11 when he was in the same room with him while he was dying.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'd go with sloppy writing. Cas didn't even acknowledge Chuck as being his father in season 11 when he was in the same room with him while he was dying.

Which part was that?

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Which part was that?

In the finale Alpha and Omega. Remember when they were trying to find a way to stop Amara and decided to build the soul bomb? Chuck was in the bunker, drinking tea with Rowena while Cas went on a beer run with Dean. Later, they're in the abandoned bar while Dean goes to confront Amara and Sam sits with Chuck while Cas sits at a table by himself. 

[Pondlass1]

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

'd go with sloppy writing. Cas didn't even acknowledge Chuck as being his father in season 11 when he was in the same room with him while he was dying.

That was just terrible.  The sun is dying. Chuck is dying.  It's the end of the world. And no one says anything. They just eat peanuts.  I don't think the writers can handle scenes like this.  So much opportunity, but so much left unsaid.  

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

In the finale Alpha and Omega. Remember when they were trying to find a way to stop Amara and decided to build the soul bomb? Chuck was in the bunker, drinking tea with Rowena while Cas went on a beer run with Dean. Later, they're in the abandoned bar while Dean goes to confront Amara and Sam sits with Chuck while Cas sits at a table by himself. 

Yeah I remember all that. I'm just not following how that relates to this case. Sorry. I think I'm being dense.

[sarthaz]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

That was just terrible.  The sun is dying. Chuck is dying.  It's the end of the world. And no one says anything. They just eat peanuts.  I don't think the writers can handle scenes like this.  So much opportunity, but so much left unsaid.  

The falloff from "Don't Call Me Shurley" to "Alpha and Omega" is IMO the worst in the long run of the show.  I know there are behind-the-scenes reasons for it, but dude ... the way they built up to "Fare Thee Well" and then totally bungled everything after that is still hard to wrap my brain around.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm also going with "sloppy writing".  I don't buy there's much subtlety or nuance going on anymore, so I think it's dangerous to read into sloppy writing as anything with deeper meaning.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Anyway, back on topic, I'm also going with "sloppy writing".  I don't buy there's much subtlety or nuance going on anymore, so I think it's dangerous to read into sloppy writing as anything with deeper meaning.

I don't know which is worse. I feel like leaving it to sloppy writing is excusing almost with a handwave. And on the other hand, I agree that it's dangerous to read into it as well. I'm almost hopeful it's intentional at least then it would make sense in the worst way. I wish Buck Lemming would just go away but that will never happen.

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I remember all that. I'm just not following how that relates to this case. Sorry. I think I'm being dense.

I was just using it as an example of sloppy writing. You were referring to Cas not acknowledging that Chuck was his father as well as Gabriel's. I compared that with how they didn't even have Cas acknowledge Chuck as his father when he was in the same room as him. Different individuals but two cases of the writers not remembering the familial tie between Cas and both characters.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I was just using it as an example of sloppy writing. You were referring to Cas not acknowledging that Chuck was his father as well as Gabriel's. I compared that with how they didn't even have Cas acknowledge Chuck as his father when he was in the same room as him. Different individuals but two cases of the writers not remembering the familial tie between Cas and both characters.

Ah.... I gotcha! Thanks!

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Ah.... I gotcha! Thanks!

:)

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is, even if Sam is just trying to connect with Gabriel, he's doing it to implore him to help them. I don't believe for a moment it's some altruistic gesture, and I wouldn't believe that if it was Dean, either. They need him back and on their team. Sam is talking about how they are alike, how they got out, but then 'my family needed me' and 'this is what I was put here to do, this is where I make the world a better place.' It just sounded self-centered to me, especially when he's trying to get Gabriel to work with the team. How about, 'this is what I was put here to do - to help my family make the world a better place.' Same message, 100% less ego.

I didn't see it that way, because the way I heard it, Sam wasn't emphasizing the "I" but the "this" when he said that. He was trying to to parallel himself and Gabriel and show that despite what he - Sam and therefore Gabriel in his parallel - thought that he wanted, that it was really "this" that gave Sam purpose. I'm pretty sure that Sam knows Gabriel knows that the team saved the world, because Gabriel said as such, using it as an excuse for himself not to get involved. To me, Sam seemed to be trying to make the point that it didn't matter if maybe the team got it done anyway without him / Gabriel, but that Sam felt purpose being part of that team. This is where I / you make the world a better place (and that feels fulfilling). Emphasizing the group as a whole wouldn't be pushing the point that Sam belonging and helping made Sam feel like he had a purpose which is what Sam was trying to get across to Gabriel, not that the group as a team makes the world a better place which Gabriel knows.  For me, the point was that Sam was saying that he felt a purpose by being a member of that team and he was trying to imply that Gabriel also would feel like he had purpose and get fulfillment out of helping the team. In other words, Sam's argument wasn't just "please help the team because it's the right thing to do and it makes the team stronger," it was "please help the team, because it will also make you feel better." And he was using himself as an example.

... Which despite the not great writing of dialogue in that speech is, in my opinion, actually a really smart strategy with Gabriel - who has shown himself to run off in the past to avoid inconveniencing himself - and is a character beat that the writer did get right for Sam. Sam has been talking about that specifically in reference to himself since at least season 6 - "The French Mistake," for example - and it was brought back in season 10 when he was talking to Charlie. I thought Carver having Sam forget that particular thing in season 8 was the out of character thing, especially when Sam seemed so sure of it in "The French Mistake." (And in that episode Sam did use "We" in his "We just don't mean the same thing here [the AU]").

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is, even if Sam is just trying to connect with Gabriel, he's doing it to implore him to help them. I don't believe for a moment it's some altruistic gesture, and I wouldn't believe that if it was Dean, either. They need him back and on their team. Sam is talking about how they are alike, how they got out, but then 'my family needed me' and 'this is what I was put here to do, this is where I make the world a better place.' It just sounded self-centered to me, especially when he's trying to get Gabriel to work with the team. How about, 'this is what I was put here to do - to help my family make the world a better place.' Same message, 100% less ego.

 

I agree with this.

Edited April 15, 2018 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

To me, Sam seemed to be trying to make the point that it didn't matter if maybe the team got it done anyway without him / Gabriel, but that Sam felt purpose being part of that team. This is where I / you make the world a better place (and that feels fulfilling). Emphasizing the group as a whole wouldn't be pushing the point that Sam belonging and helping made Sam feel like he had a purpose which is what Sam was trying to get across to Gabriel, not that the group as a team makes the world a better place which Gabriel knows. 

I came away from a different impression of Sam's speech. I honestly felt that Jared played it with an undercurrent of subtle bitterness that he had to accept this was his life. I'll have to watch scene again but each time I watched that scene, 3 times now, I still was struck that it really wasn't a particularly rah rah speech but more that somewhere underneath it was "Well, this is what we, as the ones that left, are stuck with now".  I can't quite explain why I got that vibe...just that I did.

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It just sounded self-centered to me, especially when he's trying to get Gabriel to work with the team. How about, 'this is what I was put here to do - to help my family make the world a better place.' Same message, 100% less ego.

I rarely want to defend this show against charges of sloppy writing, but in this case (and only this case - there's no justification for "I need you") I think the writers are in the clear. This is an example of what I've in the past called a highly (and, IMO, unreasonably) unsympathetic reading of Sam's character. So sure, if you think Sam is essentially a jackass who has never appreciated Dean, and are inclined to read "this is where I make the world a better place," as "Me, alone, because I am the freaking best, Dean who?" I guess the line as written gives you room to do that. But I really think it takes a lot of twisting to turn the scene into that. Sam was trying to reach Gabriel through a personal approach that heavily relied on the idea of someone who wanted to escape from a family struggle coming back and finding meaning in the fight. That's his story, not Dean's.

I'm also not sure that it was total manipulation on Sam's part. I think Sam often walks a knife's edge between legitimate compassion and what we might call calculated empathy. It was true of his relationship with Jack earlier in the season, and I think it is true here as well. Sam really does feel for Gabriel, IMO, and does want to help him; if he didn't, I think he probably would have argued for holding onto the grace for longer (which would have wound up getting him and Cas killed, but Sam didn't know that). But he also has a goal in mind, which is getting Gabriel to help. The speech reflects both poles of his character.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I rarely want to defend this show against charges of sloppy writing, but in this case (and only this case - there's no justification for "I need you") I think the writers are in the clear. This is an example of what I've in the past called a highly (and, IMO, unreasonably) unsympathetic reading of Sam's character. So sure, if you think Sam is essentially a jackass who has never appreciated Dean, and are inclined to read "this is where I make the world a better place," as "Me, alone, because I am the freaking best, Dean who?" I guess the line as written gives you room to do that. But I really think it takes a lot of twisting to turn the scene into that. Sam was trying to reach Gabriel through a personal approach that heavily relied on the idea of someone who wanted to escape from a family struggle coming back and finding meaning in the fight. That's his story, not Dean's.

I'm also not sure that it was total manipulation on Sam's part. I think Sam often walks a knife's edge between legitimate compassion and what we might call calculated empathy. It was true of his relationship with Jack earlier in the season, and I think it is true here as well. Sam really does feel for Gabriel, IMO, and does want to help him; if he didn't, I think he probably would have argued for holding onto the grace for longer (which would have wound up getting him and Cas killed, but Sam didn't know that). But he also has a goal in mind, which is getting Gabriel to help. The speech reflects both poles of his character.

This is one of the reasons I find Sam such a hard character to get a bead on. And for me, it's one thing to have a conflicted, complex character and one who has two modes and it flips according to plot needs. 

I'll have to noodle on this more.

Just now, catrox14 said:

I rarely want to defend this show against charges of sloppy writing, but in this case (and only this case - there's no justification for "I need you")

My charges of sloppy writing go well beyond Sam's speech.

[catrox14]

ETA: And it leaves me wondering if the writers see Sam in only two modes or they want the audience to see him that way and it's often IMO not consistent.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I came away from a different impression of Sam's speech. I honestly felt that Jared played it with an undercurrent of subtle bitterness that he had to accept this was his life. I'll have to watch scene again but each time I watched that scene, 3 times now, I still was struck that it really wasn't a particularly rah rah speech but more that somewhere underneath it was "Well, this is what we, as the ones that left, are stuck with now".  I can't quite explain why I got that vibe...just that I did.

I didn't get that vibe, but it may be in how we overall interpret the character. I took a more in depth discussion to the Sam thread.

[Myrelle]

I re-watched this one yesterday and realized that the Gabriel stuff worked for me because they basically just kept him an asshole angel-or archangel, to be more precise-which is pretty much who and what he's been to me since the episode that they changed him from The Trickster into an angel.

It was totally IC for him to take a powder as soon as he was able to and could. Who knows what they're going to do with him after this, but he again owes the Winchesters one just as he did after Changing Channels, even more so now.

I could only LOL at the return of Charlie Sue. I guess this is how she's always going to be written no matter who writes the episode. Robbie Thompson is probably so happy at the thought of that(and she even got to "school" Dean a little bit, too, with the "That's not your call." line in response to Dean simply saying that he didn't want to lose her again. "This is my world and my fight and I'm not leaving" would have been more than enough for Dean, IMO, but it's Singer's wife and her partner, which always makes hand waving(at least) some things a must, even in their better efforts.

Now I didn't realize that they played Dean's family theme during that horrendously written Gabriel/Sam scene and I have to agree with those who feel that THAT might have been the worst part of this episode. It felt like they defiled the song by doing that. I guess nothing is sacred on this show any more.

The Lucifer stuff was atrocious except for the exorcism scene.

But I could watch Dean and Ketch in the AU all day long. They made the episode for me and because of that, I can actually deem The Thing and this one a very nice one-two punch as episodes go and something that I don't feel I've been able to say about any two consecutive episodes since probably S10.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I didn't get that vibe, but it may be in how we overall interpret the character. I took a more in depth discussion to the Sam thread.

Honestly, mine isn't because of how I interpret Sam. I just got that vibe from the performance and only the performance from Jared.

10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

hool" Dean a little bit, too, with the "That's not your call." line in response to Dean simply saying that he didn't want to lose her again.

I really can't understand Dean's POV on her here. The writers have Dean say "I can't lose you again" as if he thinks she's the same Charlie. And why didn't Charlie say something like "I'm not that person" and then Dean kind of wakes up and realizes what he's doing, because he would.

[catrox14]

ETA: At this point, I would be kind of relieved if the show told us that all of this weird writing is because something is not right and this isn't as it appears. Like maybe they are still stuck in the Bad Place. or the Bad Place altered the boys in some way and they are just all being weird....for reasons. LOL

Edited April 15, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: At this point, I would be kind of relieved if the show told us that all of this weird writing is because something is not right and this isn't as it appears. Like maybe they are still stuck in the Bad Place. or the Bad Place altered the boys in some way and they are just all being weird....for reasons. LOL

 

I'd be okay if Dean woke up in the pretty garden and discovered all of S12/13 was a fever dream from soul-bomb exposure and Amara's real gift was an unlimited gift card for the Gas 'n Sip.

Edited April 15, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[FlickChick]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: At this point, I would be kind of relieved if the show told us that all of this weird writing is because something is not right and this isn't as it appears. Like maybe they are still stuck in the Bad Place. or the Bad Place altered the boys in some way and they are just all being weird....for reasons. LOL

They are being weird "for reasons". It's called shitty writing by an untalented staff with no overview from an adequate showrunner. 

[catrox14]

Just now, FlickChick said:

They are being weird "for reasons". It's called shitty writing by an untalented staff with no overview from an adequate showrunner. 

Ha! Fair point! Although I would exclude Steve Yockey from that. But that's just me LOL

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd be okay if Dean woke up in the pretty garden and discovered all of S12/13 was a fever dream from soul-bomb exposure and Amara's real gift was an unlimited gift card for the Gas 'n Sip.

I legit LOL'd at "unlimited gift card from the Gas n Sip".  That's fantastic.

[FlickChick]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ha! Fair point! Although I would exclude Steve Yockey from that. But that's just me LOL

I legit LOL'd at "unlimited gift card from the Gas n Sip".  That's fantastic.

I agree about Yockley, but isn't that why he's leaving?? No one wants to go down with the sinking ship (writing-wise).

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

But I could watch Dean and Ketch in the AU all day long.

Hey, me too! :-)

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I really can't understand Dean's POV on her here. The writers have Dean say "I can't lose you again" as if he thinks she's the same Charlie. And why didn't Charlie say something like "I'm not that person" and then Dean kind of wakes up and realizes what he's doing, because he would.

I understand what he meant. Of course Dean knows perfectly well that this isn't the same Charlie, and to me, assuming that what he says to her means that he didn't, seems an overly literal reading of his words. She is not his Charlie, but she is still Charlie, brave and loyal and stubborn and quirky. (Thankfully not as overly cutesy-quirky as our world's Charlie -- with apologies to Dean, because I never liked Charlie the way that he did!) So while she is not his Charlie, she is still someone's Charlie, and thus to him someone precious and important to protect.

That is one thing I liked about Charlie showing up in the episode. I doubt Dean would have spoken about Charlie to anyone since she died; it just would have been too painful, too difficult, for him for him to talk about her with, say, Sam or Cas. But maybe because he needed to convince Ketch of the importance of saving AU Charlie, he finally talked to someone about how he loved Charlie and how she was his little sister and how he felt he failed her. And I have to think that talking about her must have helped him a little. As did getting there in time to save AU Charlie from execution by the angels, after having been too late to save his Charlie. That's why he hated to leave her behind, because the thought of seeing any Charlie dying would be like re-living that loss. And I think the fact that she did not say to him, "I'm not your Charlie", shows that she also understood what he meant.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

And I think the fact that she did not say to him, "I'm not your Charlie", shows that she also understood what he meant.

IMO, this would have been better played as Dean saying to Ketch, "Look, I know she's not "my" Charlie, but I don't want her to die anyway."  That's a lot different than "I can't lose her again".   Whether AW Charlie understands it or not, isn't that important to me because my concern is what this means for Dean's SL. Not AU Charlie's. Sorry Charlie but you're a plot device for Dean right now IMO and well, that's okay. 

I do think:

Spoiler

I think this is a foreshadowing of Mary not necessarily wanting to come back and that Dean won't be able to handle that.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

One of the first thoughts I had when I saw the episode was, thank goodness they finally took the AU out of the sandbox! The snowy landscape was a refreshing change and quite beautiful, while still displaying the sterility and emptiness of the destroyed world. And watching Dean and Ketch in the AU was my favorite part of the episode. I liked the way the two characters played against each other in their interactions, and sorry, but I guess I like the actor who plays Ketch. (I'm not sure why I'm apologizing, except that so many really hated seeing him. Those who are not interested in Ketch should probably skip the rest of my comments!)

In a way, I think Ketch is a dark mirror to Dean. They each were raised and trained from childhood by their family to be used as a weapon against supernatural evil -- Dean by John, and Ketch by the British MOL (he tells Mary that the MOL is his family.) They both put a high value on duty and loyalty to their family. And, as Ketch pointedly tells Dean when he is trying to recruit him into working for the MOL, they are both killers. The difference is that Ketch is a sadistic psychopath, while Dean has a conscience.

I think that Ketch tried to use the "Code" of the MOL as a substitute for the conscience that he did not have. It allowed him to function as part of the group: if he acted according to the Code, then he was acting correctly. Plus of course there was the bonus: the MOL "kept him busy" by giving him the chance to kill a lot. Ketch described himself as "an incredibly good company man", and I think after he became disconnected from the MOL, he was at a loss, and was searching for a new place to belong.  Because he truly believed himself to be "one of the good guys" in the war against evil, he really could not understand why Dean and Sam would not let him join up with them.

I don't see how Ketch can be redeemed. He is like one of those people without a soul on the show, who can't be allowed to go free because they can't tell the difference between right and wrong. I think he is aware that he is missing something inside, but I find it hard to believe that he suddenly grew a conscience.

It makes sense to me that he misses the connection that he had in the MOL, which gave him the feeling that he was relevant, that his skills were respected, and that he was part of something important. It doesn't make sense to me that now he wants to wash the blood from his hands, even given how eager he is to team up with (in his eyes) his new best friend, Dean. I can see a Ketch who wants to work with Dean and who maybe even becomes attached to him, in his own way. But showing us a Ketch who is now remorseful for his sins is not the direction they should have gone.

On the other hand, if the show has him die doing something to help the good guys, to try to pay for some of the wrong he has done (as Gadreel or Metatron did), I think that would be the best thing Ketch can hope for as a way to go out.  JUST DON'T BRING HIM BACK AGAIN. Because it would ruin the point of the story and it would be just stupid. (I'm looking at you, Gabriel!!)

The actor is incredible.  I totally agree that he was a dark mirror for Dean.  Ketch saw Dean as a kindred spirit and Dean's rejection of him, I forget the dialogue but Ketch Overheard Dean calling him psycho,  probably set Ketch intyo psycho kill mode last season. And then there was the weird Mary rivalry on Witch's part.  All incredibly acted.

The pairing of Ketch and Dean in rhat stetile landscape was rather brilliant. It gave us the,reverse of last season's paired hunt.  Ketch was cold and focused this time providing the calm cobteadt to Dean's man getting closer to the edge with every step. 

Dabbler and Hacks continue to disappoint with lol canon, weak plotting and other sundry fails.  However they are really excelling in some major areas.

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I re-watched this one yesterday and realized that the Gabriel stuff worked for me because they basically just kept him an asshole angel-or archangel, to be more precise-which is pretty much who and what he's been to me since the episode that they changed him from The Trickster into an angel.

It was totally IC for him to take a powder as soon as he was able to and could. Who knows what they're going to do with him after this, but he again owes the Winchesters one just as he did after Changing Channels, even more so now.

I could only LOL at the return of Charlie Sue. I guess this is how she's always going to be written no matter who writes the episode. Robbie Thompson is probably so happy at the thought of that(and she even got to "school" Dean a little bit, too, with the "That's not your call." line in response to Dean simply saying that he didn't want to lose her again. "This is my world and my fight and I'm not leaving" would have been more than enough for Dean, IMO, but it's Singer's wife and her partner, which always makes hand waving(at least) some things a must, even in their better efforts.

Now I didn't realize that they played Dean's family theme during that horrendously written Gabriel/Sam scene and I have to agree with those who feel that THAT might have been the worst part of this episode. It felt like they defiled the song by doing that. I guess nothing is sacred on this show any more.

The Lucifer stuff was atrocious except for the exorcism scene.

But I could watch Dean and Ketch in the AU all day long. They made the episode for me and because of that, I can actually deem The Thing and this one a very nice one-two punch as episodes go and something that I don't feel I've been able to say about any two consecutive episodes since probably S10.

 

The next Supernatural spin-off  show should just be Dean and friends. Dean and a random friend/frenemy explore a rift world... Dean and a small grouo of friends frequent coffee shop...

Either works  for me.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Affogato]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:12 PM, Katy M said:

 

3. While I kind of liked that we got something realistic in the way someone would act if they'd been tortured for years, in universe I'm thinking, so ordinary mortals like Sam and Dean (yes, I know, blasphemy to call them ordinary) can survive decades of torture and come out smiling, and an archanagel completely breaks? Seems hard to believe.

 

I was puzzled. Asmodeus couldn't sense a connection with Gabriel until he raised up one of his attributes, and Gabriel recovered pretty damn quickly. So I wondered if it was, if not a complete act, maybe a deliberate disconnection from himself. Build a little mental box and crawled into it.

[MysteryGuest]

I know that Gabriel was supposed to have been tortured for years, and had his grace siphoned off by Asmodeus during that whole time, leaving him a cowering wreck.  So it did seem a bit unrealistic that after just one dose of archangel juice, he seemed to completely recover his mojo.  Lucifer, on the other hand, wasn't really tortured all that much, but it seems to have taken him quite a bit longer to recover his grace.  And that's while feeding on a host angel in the interim?  I suppose it's possible that Michael took more grace from Lucifer, but he appeared to only do it once, while Asmodeus was apparently doing it regularly to Gabriel, so I really have no clue how angel grace works.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

so I really have no clue how angel grace works.

Neither do the writers.

[Lemuria]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am a little surprised they didn't wait the 24hrs before doing it though. Much like there was no reason for Dean to go through Right!Now, neither did they have to immediately use what at this point is the only means they had to re-open the rift should Dean not make it back before it closed. At least a little time must have passed before Cas made it to the bunker - waiting a few more hours wasn't going to make much difference to Gabriel and they didn't know Assmodeus was on the way. Clearly neither Sam nor Cas were thinking about Dean possibly being stuck in AU. Their concern was only for Gabriel. Dean's choice to go was rash, but he went through believing Sam (and Cas) would be able to help if something went wrong. I do believe [they] thought Gabriel would help once he was healed, but there was no back-up plan if he didn't.

Yep, I wondered at this myself.  Yes, Gabriel took out Asmodeus (though that was more for himself than for Sam and/or Cas, so at least he was consistent in this ep) but it they hadn't given Gabriel the grace back when they did, Asmodeus would not have known where Gabriel was and wouldn't have come to the bunker.  Yes, they assumed Gabriel would want to help them, at least just to give them some grace, but we all know what happens when you assume, right?  So it seemed to me that they might want to hold off returning the grace--and, yes, it was his but so was the first batch used to open the rift and it was used anyway--until at least they knew that Dean made it back.  

I don't understand why the showrunners are bringing back old characters if all they're going to do is destroy them.  First Mary--who ended up making John seem like Parent of the Year--and now Gabriel.  I had thought Gabriel was fun but he was also very selfish and somewhat cowardly--Dean nailed it in "Changing Channels" with (and I haven't looked it up so it's more a gist of what he said than an exact quote) "This isn't about the Apocalypse.  It's about you being too afraid to stand up to your family"--but finally, in "Hammer of the Gods, he seemed to step up to the plate and sacrifice himself to stop Lucifer.  Except that now we find out that he never faced Luci, he just sent simulacra to confront his brother and then he jetted off because he was "free" from any obligations and he didn't give a flying you-know-what about humanity or anything else.  

So they took his noblest moment and trashed it.  They may have Gabriel help them later but AFAIAC, Gabriel is now irredeemable, IMO.  

(And, like MysteryGuest, I wondered how just one small vial of grace should give him that much power.)

And how could Asmodeus just stroll into the bunker (not to mention the lesser demons)?  They even strengthened the wards after they got his phone call.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Lemuria

[SueB]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I know that Gabriel was supposed to have been tortured for years, and had his grace siphoned off by Asmodeus during that whole time, leaving him a cowering wreck.  So it did seem a bit unrealistic that after just one dose of archangel juice, he seemed to completely recover his mojo.  Lucifer, on the other hand, wasn't really tortured all that much, but it seems to have taken him quite a bit longer to recover his grace.  And that's while feeding on a host angel in the interim?  I suppose it's possible that Michael took more grace from Lucifer, but he appeared to only do it once, while Asmodeus was apparently doing it regularly to Gabriel, so I really have no clue how angel grace works.

Gabriel certainly looked in FAR worse shape, ITA.  There may be some plotonium out there regarding Nick's meat suit.  Also, Lucifer mentioned some issue with the universe hopping.  It's why he was so weaksauce against AU Michael in the first place.  Also, I wonder if the angel grace to archangel grace is like tofu to a steak. Both have protein... but to a steak eater, tofu is not equivalent (although works great for vegetarians).  But even with those conditions in place, one dose seems too little.

Conversely, even at his worse, Gabriel was magically writing on walls whereas at his worse, Lucifer couldn't raise a stick.  

Something else.  Luci finally DID manage to move the stick with enough anger.  We saw Gabriel's trama shock.  Maybe his terror turned to rage (seems justified) and thus helped boost his power.

Note... I'm just spitballin' here.  Nothing on screen gives us a nice 'A+B=C' equation to explain all this.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Also, Lucifer mentioned some issue with the universe hopping. 

If universe hopping affects an archangel, it really should do something to Cas and the boys as well.  Why would Lucifer only be affected by it?

[SueB]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If universe hopping affects an archangel, it really should do something to Cas and the boys as well.  Why would Lucifer only be affected by it?

Don't know.  Maybe for the same reason only archangel grace can be used for opening.  Something akin to frequency & harmonics (archangels & angels not on exact same frequency) would be my guess.

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

Don't know.  Maybe for the same reason only archangel grace can be used for opening.  Something akin to frequency & harmonics (archangels & angels not on exact same frequency) would be my guess.

I will give you points for trying to make sense of all this stuff that doesn't get put into the show. I mean I don't think it's the case but you are being creative.

[belbar]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I will give you points for trying to make sense of all this stuff that doesn't get put into the show. I mean I don't think it's the case but you are being creative.

Problem is that this is exactly what's happening more and more with everything. It's the viewer who has to constantly make sense of all the stuff that doesn't get put into the show. That's the showrunner and writers jobs. Not ours. We're constantly looking for reasons to explain the inconsistencies. It shouldn't be that way IMO. YMMV.

[MysteryGuest]

19 hours ago, SueB said:

Gabriel certainly looked in FAR worse shape, ITA.  There may be some plotonium out there regarding Nick's meat suit.  Also, Lucifer mentioned some issue with the universe hopping.  It's why he was so weaksauce against AU Michael in the first place.  Also, I wonder if the angel grace to archangel grace is like tofu to a steak. Both have protein... but to a steak eater, tofu is not equivalent (although works great for vegetarians).  But even with those conditions in place, one dose seems too little.

Conversely, even at his worse, Gabriel was magically writing on walls whereas at his worse, Lucifer couldn't raise a stick.  

Something else.  Luci finally DID manage to move the stick with enough anger.  We saw Gabriel's trama shock.  Maybe his terror turned to rage (seems justified) and thus helped boost his power.

Note... I'm just spitballin' here.  Nothing on screen gives us a nice 'A+B=C' equation to explain all this.

I appreciate the attempts to have it make sense.  And as Belbar pointed out above, it really shouldn't be on us to fill in the obvious blanks, but it is what it is.  I just found it odd that Gabriel, who was practically catatonic was able to take out Asmodeus with just a bit of his angel grace, while Lucifer was shown to be almost completely without power until he started to take grace from Sister Jo.  I know...I need to stop trying to make things make sense, but sometimes I just can't help myself.  I doubt there is any explanation other than plotonium.  They needed Lucifer weak to make his story work, and they needed Gabriel instantly revitalized to save Sam and Cas...end of story.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

just found it odd that Gabriel, who was practically catatonic was able to take out Asmodeus with just a bit of his angel grace, while Lucifer was shown to be almost completely without power until he started to take grace from Sister Jo.

You know what does work for me. Is if Gabriel went to the Cage, got Michael who is really the one healing inside Gabriel and Michael is the one that had the power to kill Asmodeus that easily.  At this point Michael is the only one on this earth who is fully powered archangel.

We've already had angel in an angel vessel with Casifer so why not Michriel?