S13.E18: Bring 'em Back Alive

[catrox14]

I thought Sam's speech to Gabriel was awful. Gabriel is NOT family. His desperate "I NEED YOU". Oh my gods, why would Sam EVER say to Gabriel? It has no basis for existence. None.  He never identified with Gabriel until now for plot sake.

Those words should have come out of Cas' mouth. Not Sam's. IMO that was crap writing.

I didn't even like the stuff in AW. Dean and Ketch should never be paired again. I hate it.

[Casseiopeia]

West coast so I haven't watched it yet and am trying to stay spoiler free but Holy Moly the smile at the end...

 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, actually they have.  If you remove the personal part of it being their mother.  They forgave Crowley and he didn't give Bobby's soul back when he said he would. He made them work for him to give Sam's soul back, which he couldn't actually do.  He talked Cas into opening up Purgatory.  He kidnapped Kevin and cut his thumb off.  He kidnapped Kevin's mother.  He killed Sarah and Tommy.  He managed to send Bobby to Hell even after giving his soul back.  

But I won't and don't and can't and shan't remove that it's Dean's mother. That's my whole point. It's changed because it is their mother. Dean put a gun in teen ager's face to get over to Mary. IMO it's a whole other kettle of fish and it does matter.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

It's a guess based on the end of this episode, so not a spoiler.

Edited out what might be though. Oops!

Welll it has been my speculation since early last season based on themes I observed and the hints, anvils, themes have been getting stronger and stronger as 12 became 13.

Basically the writing starting in 12.1 screamed we are heading to Apocalypse 2 0 and Dean will be Dean!Michael this time around whereas Sam will be the angsty caretaker brother.  Loads of hints and subtext.

I would be surprised if anyone did not expect it after this episode though. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Wow, they brought Charlie back? Is it too late in the season to wish for Henriksen to be brought back too?

I would celebrate Henriksen

[BoxManLocke]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Sam's speech to Gabriel was awful. Gabriel is NOT family. His desperate "I NEED YOU". Oh my gods, why would Sam EVER say to Gabriel? It has no basis for existence. None.  He never identified with Gabriel until now for plot sake.

Those words should have come out of Cas' mouth. Not Sam's. IMO that was crap writing.

I didn't even like the stuff in AW. Dean and Ketch should never be paired again. I hate it.

 

It was literally cliché after cliché after cliché. And that's what triggers his waking up. Please.

 

Ketch shouldn't be paired with anyone except a bullet at high speed. I can't care about the AW because I don't know what's going on with Jack and Mary. Also it's just visually very unappealing, and besides a few mediocre versions of alternate characters, they couldn't introduce anybody interesting from there that's actually new. I think that would've helped a lot.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Welll it has been my speculation since early last season based on themes I observed and the hints, anvils, themes have been getting stronger and stronger as 12 became 13.

Basically the writing starting in 12.1 screamed we are heading to Apocalypse 2 0 and Dean will be Dean!Michael this time around whereas Sam will be the angsty caretaker brother.  Loads of hints and subtext.

I would be surprised if anyone did not expect it after this episode though. 

I don't.  But, that's because I'm trying so hard to go against my nature and be an optimist.

[Castiels Cat]

53 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Depends on what your definition of "no connection" is.  She does have the same DNA.  She's the same person, just from a different timeline.  Dean feels guilty about her death.  It doesn't surprise me.  But, even if he had never seen Charlie, and didn't go on a detour, not sure how they would have found Mary and Jack.  they probably would have literally just wandered around aimlessly.  The only other being they saw told them where to find Charlie, but it would be doubtful he could locate the rebels for Dean, seeing as how he was on the opposite side.

I agree. It also effectively illustrates rhat Dean is desperate, manic, on edge and not thinking clearly.  Another reason why pairing him with the cold, efficient Letch was so clever.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

If you guys actually know that he's going to be Michael, maybe that should be kept in the spoilers section. 

This is just speculation and it's spec we've been saying for a long time. There have been no drops and no confirmation that this is a fact. So don't worry. Not spoilers.

[Castiels Cat]

48 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

We saw in this ep that Dean has not been as OK as he seemed to be for a while now.  I think we've 

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seen the straw that broke the "I won't say 'yes' to Michael" camel's back.  At this point, he thinks they're out of options.

He really has reached the end of his hope.

Exactly.  They have done a perfect job of setting this up from his overly protective behavior last season to his rush to suicide to save Sam in Thanatology to him racing off alone rhis,seadon again and again to this.

The writing might often suck in individual episodes but I am truly gobsmacked at how beaaurifully they have set this up over two seasons.

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't.  But, that's because I'm trying so hard to go against my nature and be an optimist.

Cool.  And I have the rosiest of Dean goggles.

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't see why.  Gabriel's not the one who let Lucifer out of the cage thereby enabling him to create spawn who then opened up rift, thereby letting alt-Michael know there was another world to conquer and Mary getting trapped over there.

Because he's a dick? Because Ketch helped him escape the most brutal torture in the history of torture, and Sam & Cas gave him back his grace when they could've kept it to re-open the rift? Because he apparently ran away from Apocalypse 1.0, stayed away during the Darkness and the dying of the sun? Because he now refuses to do anything to help, again?

[Wynne88]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Sam's speech to Gabriel was awful. Gabriel is NOT family. His desperate "I NEED YOU". Oh my gods, why would Sam EVER say to Gabriel? It has no basis for existence. None.  He never identified with Gabriel until now for plot sake.

Agreed.  Cliched 'empathic Sam', regardless of why on earth he would be in this case.  And also agree with the poster above who compared tough guy Dean to tough guy Sam in Red Meat.  Both were way over the top as far as I'm concerned. 

[BoxManLocke]

The angel soldier on the bridge spouting needless exposition while Dean and Ketch are conveniently at earshot is really the kind of writing I'm staying up until 2 in the morning every friday to witness.

 

The fact that it's that crap bit of writing that starts Dean's quest to save Charlie makes it even better.

 

btw BuckLeming were the ones who got Charlie killed through a hilarious series of events that made no sense at all. The fact that they can just come back and write for her again makes my blood boil.

[MysteryGuest]

Sam was definitely trying to play on Gabriel's emotions a bit, but he is technically on the side of the good guys, so he is family in a way.  I guess we'll see if Gabriel remains a shit, or if he comes back to help in the end.  

This season has turned into such a cluster that if I can watch an episode and actually pay attention, I take that as a win.  There are too many characters, and having favorites just pop up out of nowhere has lost it's luster.  I wonder if they thought this was going to be their last season, so they tried to bring back as many past characters as possible?  What will they do for an encore next season?

I can get quite a lot of mileage out of Asmodeus' death, so I'll be back next week to see who else they can kill off that annoys me.  Sadly, I think Lucifer is here till the end.

[catrox14]

He was shot in the shoulder not in the gut like Sam in Red Meat. A person can survive being shot in the shoulder. It was the poison that slowed him down. And that took a little time to affect him and when it did, it took him down and he couldn't continue.

That doesn't seem much like caricature to me.

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

I'll watch it again, but my first feeling is one of annoyance.  They took every Dean trait and magnified it til he became practically a caricature of himself.  Big damn tough guy, can't be stopped by a bullet, even one that's poisoned - and thanks to Ketch for underlining just how tough he was.

1 minute ago, BoxManLocke said:

btw BuckLeming were the ones who got Charlie killed through a hilarious series of events that made no sense at all. The fact that they can just come back and write for her again makes my blood boil.

I do wonder if Jensen pushed for this. He was livid when Charlie was killed initially and made no bones about it.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Sam's speech to Gabriel was awful. Gabriel is NOT family. His desperate "I NEED YOU". Oh my gods, why would Sam EVER say to Gabriel? It has no basis for existence. None.  He never identified with Gabriel until now for plot sake.

Those words should have come out of Cas' mouth. Not Sam's. IMO that was crap writing.

I didn't even like the stuff in AW. Dean and Ketch should never be paired again. I hate it.

Didn't get a chance to see this episode - had a class to oversee - but will do so tomorrow. Sounds from this that I'm going to need to brace myself, however. Maybe you can let me know what to expect? I entirely don't care about spoilers anymore... because I like it better if I know going in what the damage will be.

So Sam screws up as I predicted I assume? Because plot says that he identifies with and feels sorry for Gabriel... whoo boy: shades of Gadreel then? I suppose Gabriel is just misunderstood, so Sam feels sorry for him. Nevermind that he killed Dean over and over again, and yes he tried to help in the end, but that makes him a questionable ally, not family. But I assume that Sam and Castiel do something or somehow get in trouble so that Gabriel has to save them or something - pretty much as I expected.

How does Dean get back? I'm guessing Ketch helps which *gag* since I entirely agree with you 100% about hating the idea of Dean and Ketch. It sounds like a poor man's Dean/Benny (which I also predicted) and the way the show kind of pushed that on us (as in I wouldn't have minded Benny / Dean if not for the "see what an awful brother Sam is? Isn't Benny awesome in comparison." stuff.) I'm guessing it's similar with Dean / Ketch?

3 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Agreed.  Cliched 'empathic Sam', regardless of why on earth he would be in this case. 

Oh great, so we have Sam be empathetic for plot purposes so that he gives up the grace they need to open the rift and Dean gets to be angry at him and has to sacrifice to fix Sam's mistake? (Which I'm pretty sure I also predicted Dean would have to do.) I just love it when they take Sam's supposed good qualities and turn them into weaknesses. *sarcasm*

I suppose this will be where Sam will magically get his hope / optimism back now that it's too late? Because we can't have Sam actually do anything helpful here I guess.

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

...They forgave Crowley and he didn't give Bobby's soul back when he said he would. He made them work for him to give Sam's soul back, which he couldn't actually do.  He talked Cas into opening up Purgatory.  He kidnapped Kevin and cut his thumb off.  He kidnapped Kevin's mother.  He killed Sarah and Tommy.  He managed to send Bobby to Hell even after giving his soul back.  

Except that Sam actually didn't until maybe near the very end.  Sam was still actively trying to kill Crowley in season 10, and had been pretty much wanting to kill him ever since they met.

[gonzosgirrl]

I really don't think Dean was mad at Sam and Cas so much as he was just mad, period. Time will tell, I guess.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except that Sam actually didn't until maybe near the very end.  Sam was still actively trying to kill Crowley in season 10, and had been pretty much wanting to kill him ever since they met.

And Dean was willing to kill him in 12.23 when he though he opened the Cage again. So Crowley was never a friend. He was always a frienenemy.

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I really don't think Dean was mad at Sam and Cas so much as he was just mad, period. Time will tell, I guess.

Yeah, I think he was frustrated with the whole thing. I suspect he was mad at them and himself. Dean is never not mad at himself.

[Lemuria]

7 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

And also agree with the poster above who compared tough guy Dean to tough guy Sam in Red Meat.  Both were way over the top as far as I'm concerned. 

I don't see that they are in the same category at all.  Dean's always been tough when injured, especially when it came to protecting his family.  He would have been dead without Ketch and the super, amazing and really, really, fast-acting antidote--yet another out-of-the-blue creation of the BMoL, who are the real over-the-top character(s), and even for a bit after he got the antidote.  

Sam was gut-shot and bleeding out.  He stopped breathing for more than few minutes.  Yet, he recovered without any brain damage or even disorientation, and seemed to miraculously stop bleeding out and internally for the rest of the episode.  He was able to defeat two healthy werewolves (who somehow couldn't pick up his scent in the basement even though he was covered in blood.  They should be drummed out of the Werewolf Corps).  He took the truck and drove it, not to the hospital even though it was an urgent situation, but to the Impala to switch vehicles--yet that total waste of time didn't hurt anything.  He got to the hospital and saved the day, and then was fine with a couple of stitches.  When, in fact, he was actually dead for any number of reasons!

[BoxManLocke]

38 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, actually they have.  If you remove the personal part of it being their mother.  They forgave Crowley and he didn't give Bobby's soul back when he said he would. He made them work for him to give Sam's soul back, which he couldn't actually do.  He talked Cas into opening up Purgatory.  He kidnapped Kevin and cut his thumb off.  He kidnapped Kevin's mother.  He killed Sarah and Tommy.  He managed to send Bobby to Hell even after giving his soul back.  

 

Yeah, Crowley logically should have been dealt with, but he also was a much more important character for the mythology, a more powerful ally for the brothers when need be, and well, that was Mark Sheppard.

 

With Ketch they're basically doing the same stuff except with a much weaker character that has no personal arc to speak of and for which they already pulled the goddamn resurrection card after a single season. Ketch was created only for season 12 and it shows. badly.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

With Ketch they're basically doing the same stuff except with a much weaker character that has no personal arc to speak of and for which they already pulled the goddamn resurrection card after a single season. Ketch was created only for season 12 and it shows. badly.

So much this. And they have portrayed him as the ultimate psychopath, killing women (Eileen) and children (Magda) without remorse, and yet we're suddenly supposed to accept that he has empathy for Dean over failing to save Charlie? All because a demon was mean to him? Please.

Also, I thought Ketch and the BMoL were supposed to know everything there was to know about the Winchesters - yet Ketch never even heard Charlie's name? Okay then.

All that said - I said recently that all I have left is the performances, and Jensen knocked it out of the park. And Sam's speeches, while inexplicably dumb, were well performed.

Edited April 13, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And Sam's speeches, while inexplicably dumb, were well performed.

I'm glad to hear this, but I hope at some point they give Sam some good stuff again. I'd like to see Jared get something good to work with and knock it out of the park.

Oh, and could someone please give me a quick synopsis? I'd be grateful... I want to know what I'm going to be getting myself into when I watch tomorrow. (See my post above for some potential questions I had.)

Edited April 13, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Wynne88]

As much as I didn't like the writing in this episode, I did think Jensen did a super job.  

[BoxManLocke]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm glad to hear this, but I hope at some point they give Sam some good stuff again. I'd like to see Jared get something good to work with and knock it out of the park.

 

They can. Reunite Sam and Jack. There's so much more to do there. But they won't.

 

The way they dropped what was Sam's best personal arc in half a decade is so disappointing and it never got a proper ending (or middle for that matter). There is nothing left for him to do now.

[gonzosgirrl]

I would like go know why, twice now, they have had Sam say "I save the world." They always have Dean say 'we', or 'me and Sam', but Sam says 'I'. It's like they want to foment resentment.

And I'm sorry, but frying Colonel Sanders couldn't have been a coincidence. LOL!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would like go know why, twice now, they have had Sam say "I save the world." They always have Dean say 'we', or 'me and Sam', but Sam says 'I'. It's like they want to foment resentment.

And I'm sorry, but frying Colonel Sanders couldn't have been a coincidence. LOL!

I mentioned that up thread and I think it's foreshadowing something about Sam.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

If you guys actually know that he's going to be Michael, maybe that should be kept in the spoilers section.  I'm almost tempted to skp the rest of the season so I don't have to see that, but I'm keeping hope that you guys don't know what you're talking about.

We do not (as in don't have a spoiler about Michael).  It just seems like Apocalypse Pt 2 so that's been the speculation.  

[catrox14]

Oh wow. I wasn't sure but upon re-watch after Dean is shot, he says "Does it look bad, Mom".

Poor guy.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm glad to hear this, but I hope at some point they give Sam some good stuff again. I'd like to see Jared get something good to work with and knock it out of the park.

Oh, and could someone please give me a quick synopsis? I'd be grateful... I want to know what I'm going to be getting myself into when I watch tomorrow. (See my post above for some potential questions I had.)

Synopsis ... FULL SPOILERS AHEAD (some scenes may be out of sequence)

- Dean and Ketch land in AU world, snowville style.  It is not the same place as before.  Dean tries to dump Ketch but Ketch can tell Dean is not where he is supposed to be and he gets Dean to reluctantly let him tag along.
- Cas rants at Sam about Dean bailing. Sam felt a little like a convenient punching bag -- but I think Sam knows Cas is just worried.  They focus on Gabriel -- who is a twitchy mess on the floor.  They try to give him the second vial of grace to help him heal and he freaks.
- Lucifer is a bored and playing Solitaire. The Angels are eye rolling at him because he's all hat and no cattle.  Sister Jo suggests he try to fix Heaven, try to actually do the role.
- Dean and Ketch spot Angel-goons on a bridge with prisoners.  They kill two but let the third live because they realize she knows where the nephilim is.  They take her hood off -- it's CHARLIE!!! Woot!  D&K pursue.  
- Sam comes in to check on Gabriel and he's gone all "beautiful mind" on the wall.  Cas says it's his complete story on how he escaped.  Basically he faked his own death and then went to Monte Carlo and hung out with porn stars.  Much of the wall is about the porn stars.  Then he got captured by Asmodeus and evil Col S has been feeding on his grace for years, getting stronger while Gabriel got weaker.
 

... 2 min pause.....

[catrox14]

Also, I'm really bothered by the shown having Dean think that AW Charlie is his Charlie and him not wanting to "lose her again". It's crap writing. Dean knows it's not his Charlie. Why would he be trying to replace her. Ugh stop it.

I cannot understand why Sam and Cas are acting so contrite around Dean at the end. Good grief. Especially Cas. It's absurd.  Their reactions are intended to make the audience be against Dean. I hate this.

[SueB]

Synopsis continued...

- Luci gets dressed up in some snazzy suit and trys to be "God" by listening to prayers.  He lasts 5 seconds before he can't take the whining.  Then he catches onto an exorcism... so he pops down.  Pretty funny scene.  He tells Anthony (the demon possessing some young girl) to take a hike and the demon leaves.  The two priests start babbling thanks and Lucifer tells them who he is.  They immediate start throwing Holy Water and call him "scourge of mankind" and such.  He poofs them with a wave of his hand.  His first 'miracle' didn't go well.  He thinks the fix is in because Dad turned everyone against him.
- D&K walking in the woods.  Ketch is trying to be ninja-like in enemy territory and slowing things down.  Dean tells him to hurry up as they are running out of time.  Dean gets shot in the shoulder by a random bounty hunter.  Ketch tackles him.  Dean shoots random in the knee to get the intel he wants -- where the prisoners (Charlie) are held.  Dean wants to get to Charlie to save her and also she knows where Jack/Mary are.
- Cas tries to job Gabriel's memory to no avail.  Sam stays behind and gives an empassion speech about how he related to Gabriel because he wanted to get away from his family.  But ultimately Sam realized that being with his family, and doing good, is what he was meant to do.  Then he tries to get Gabriel to see his family (like Jack) needs him, the world needs him, and Sam needs him.  That last bit was a little weird... I can read a lot of non-Sabriel into this moment -- like Sam needs Gabriel's help because it's a desperate situation.  Sam chastises him a bit about hiding out with hookers during his speech.  Gabriel wakes up to say "porn stars".  It was porn stars.  ... Because THAT is what mattered in the speech. *rimshot*
- Dean tries to muscle his way through but he's struggling from his wound. Ketch tries to slow him down. Dean nearly passes out.  Ketch... representing fangirls everywhere... decides he needs to rip Dean's shirt to see his shoulder (sorry, couldn't resist).  It looks gross. Like when Cas was stabbed gross.  Bullet was poisoned.
Ketch makes a poultice from some BMoL memory and smushes it into Dean's wound.  It stings.
- Luci is whining again, Sister Jo breaks out some hard truths about how it's not everyone else's fault, it's Lucifers.  Girl has SASS.  Luci confesses he can't make Angels and he can't give them back their wings. After Jo verbally rips into him, Luci finally grabs her by the throat. Not pretty. He lets her go and she walks off saying he has lost her.  
- Ketch makes Dean stop for 5 mins to rest.  Dean's doing better with the Hogwarts cure but is tired.  Ketch gets him to explain Charlie's importance (she's like a sister and Dean doesn't want to let her down).  Ketch admits he let many people down and thought he was being a professional.  Knows he was wrong. Wants to try to wipe some of that stink off of himself.  
- Sam & Cas give Gabriel the second vial of grace (now that he's lucid). He's not sure it will help but he's definitely tracking now and talking in complete sentences.  Just then Asmodeus (who had a scene earlier where he was mentally searching for Gabriel) is alerted to where Gabriel is at.  He calls Sam and says they have 10 mins to give up Gabriel or he's going to come to the bunker and smash his way in.
- Dean & Ketch arrive at the POW farm.  Charlie has been brave and not talking.  They get close enough to see her being led out for an execution.  They throw grenades, storm the encampment, and kill most of the guards.  They take Charlie and get out of there.  The rest of the prisoners flee.
- Sam comes back from improving the warding, Gabriel is still weak, when the bunker alarm system goes off, Cas & Sam head out to meet the threat. Asmodeus comes in a swagger and spit.  Cas & Sam kill a few demons before Asmodeus starts flinging them around and remotely torturing them (ala Meg w/ Crowley). Gabriel is dragged out by two stunt demons and Asmodeus makes a gross innuendo about punishment.  As they drag Gabriel up the stairs, he finally gets a spine and takes the two demons out. He heals himself (it's like the added grace just kicked in or something) and then torches Evil Col Sanders.  It's fairly rewarding to see him toasted. 
- We come back from commercial and it appears Cas & Sam have brought Gabriel up to speed.  Gabriel tries to exit stage right.  Sam & Cas try to argue with him to stay but Gabriel is having none of it.  He peaces out, leaving the two shell-shocked at his lack of 'give a shit'.
- Dean, Ketch & Charlie are on the road. SHE's been brought up to speed and finds the whole story pretty incredible, until Dean shows her the fading rift.  Ketch tells Dean to go on, he'll stay back and find Mary.  Charlie says she's staying as well.  Dean's surprised, he really wanted Charlie to come back, but she's still Charlie -- she's going to stay and fight.  So Dean goes back through the rift just as it closes. 
- Dean pops back into the bunker and Sam & Cas come running. Sam is like "Where's Mom? Where's Jack?" Dean says it's a long story. Sam notes the injury and Dean shrugs it off.  Dean sees the bunker is a mess and they tell him Asmodeus busted it up but Gabriel saved them. Dean is happy to hear Gabriel is back.  They explain "not so much" and that he peaced out.  Dean is pissed.  He then says, but you do have the angel grace still... right?  And they tell them they used it to heal Gabriel.  Dean is super pissed now and says that if he can't go back, he should have stayed in the AU.  He yells "Son of a Bitch" in about the angriest version of that line that I recall.  He's so frustrated because it seems everytime they get close, something goes wrong.  Sam & Cas are looking devasted behind him as Dean stares into the distance looking like a man on the edge....

End Synopsis.  I probably forgot bits and of course it's shaded by my general pro-show opinion. 

[Commando Cody]

I don't know if this was a coincidence, or if someone on the show is a huge Doors fan. Jim Morrison had a motel room in Los Angeles - room 32. The room is covered from floor to ceiling with graffiti. 

 

I was really frustrated and kind of pissed with this episode. It was kind of a Charlie clip show that only served to remind that it was her own fault that she got killed. She ran off. I admit I'm not a fan of hers at all. I kind of look at her as the Wesley Crusher of Supernatural. The thing that has continually bothered me most about this show is that no matter what, it's Sam and Dean's fault when something bad happened. Even when they tell people to stay away, they don't listen, they get killed. It's Sam and Dean's fault. Global warming. That's on them. 

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is just speculation and it's spec we've been saying for a long time. There have been no drops and no confirmation that this is a fact. So don't worry. Not spoilers.

Yeah, I'm speculating that Dean is going to say yes.

[SueB]

And now my actual THOUGHTS on the episode.  I'll go Good, Bad, & Ugly.

Good:
- Charlie!!!! So happy to see her alive and sassy.  Longer hair, same sense of loyalty.  Said "Bite Me" with panache to an asshole Angel (twice).
- The winter wonderland in the AU.  That was really pretty.  And the landscape was nice too. (*rimshot*).  
- The exorcism scene was funny, with D-lister Anthony bailing as soon as Lucifer told him to.
- I really appreciated Sam's compassion for Gabriel.
- I thought the Beautiful Mind room writing was a clever way to get out Gabriel's backstory.
- I like Sister Jo's sass.  I think Sister Jo is skating on uber-thin ice.
- Ketch fixing Dean. Good Ack-ting with the salt in the wound.
- The final scene.  BOTH Sam and Dean are just at the end of their rope.  Neither is happy with how things turned out. Both are beating themselves up about it.  But everyone looked so defeated (Cas too).  Definitely got the "it's darkest before the dawn" sense. And they are all together and yet isolated in their misery.  It was very unsettling but in a good way (as in realistic and the mood was well conveyed).

Bad:
- Asmodeus' story really never played out.  HOW was he able to use the Archangel grace. I wish they had put the budget into the yellow eyes one more time to remind us of his stature.  We're left with pretty much having to fill in the villain motivation.  Although I did get a hint of junkie-vibe.  And his anger was tied to needing to continue to feed off of Gabriel as much as anything else.
- While we got Charlie back, not great progress towards getting Mary/Jack.
- Ketch's redemption arc is too thin.  David has been actually doing a good job of selling it without sufficient dialog to earn it.  Again, we're rushed.  If we are going to go that route, I'd like to see him grovel.  Maybe he'll do it to Mary.  I watched the "Something About Mary" episode a couple of days ago.  He really needs to beg her forgiveness.
- Bad - Gabriel stiffing them.  I just don't like it.  Doesn't make it a normal part of the storyline but I'm pissed at him.  He IS a DICK.  The thing he claims to hate.  Gabriel needs to show humilty and thankfulness to TFW.  If he skates thru this Apocalypse-like season without getting his head on straight, I'll be pissed.  I had sympathy for his torture but he was too smug at the end.

Ugly:
- I would like to never hear those innuendos from Asmodeus to Gabriel again.  Just classic B-L going for the implied rape.  Gross.

Bottom line: Despite some moments I didn't enjoy, I liked the episode.  I thought Dean and Ketch made a good team.  I like Sam and Cas working together.  Asmodeus is deep fried.  Gabriel may be a dick but he's back on the board -- we just need him to commit to the game.  Luci had some good moments but he clearly doesn't know what he wants.  Sister Jo's home-truths felt good to hear.  EVERYONE needs scotch & hugs.  

[catrox14]

I don't understand why Dean and Ketch did the Superhero squat landing when going through the rift when when back in 12.23 they just walked back and forth easy peasy. LOL So dumb. 

[AwesomO4000]

Thank you for the synopsis, @SueB. Hopefully I will have my own comments to add tomorrow.

[companionenvy]

Plenty of stupid to go around (redeemed Ketch, Sam's "I need you" to Gabriel, Gabriel getting over torture via pep-talk), as usual, but as a whole I liked it, especially if I'm grading Buck-Lemming on a curve. For a BL episode, it was actually quite well-paced, too; there were multiple plots, but all got a reasonable amount of attention, I thought. 

-Seeing AU Charlie reinforced for me that the AU has been underused. It would have been great to have some scenes involving rebel leader Charlie meeting Mary and Jack earlier in the season.

-Loved seeing Gabriel fry Colonel Sanders, but disappointed that the show has basically gutted his previous arc. I never actually liked Gabriel all that much as a character (I'm not even a massive fan of Mystery Spot), but his decision to put himself on the line in S5 was a really powerful moment. To find out that he just peaced out to Monte Carlo undermines all of that. I expect they're going to have him ultimately do the right thing this time around, but that shouldn't have come at the expense of such a key, long-established scene. They could have explained Gabriel's reappearance in a way that didn't rob him of his sacrifice entirely.

-I didn't think Dean was angry at Sam and Cas; just righteously frustrated/devastated. I also don't think Sam and Cas screwed up. They did pretty much what they had to do, and got burned for it. It would have been absolutely unethical to use Gabriel's grace for their own purposes rather than returning it to him; as much as this episode diminishes what Gabriel did in S5, he still helped them enough to deserve some consideration, IMO. And even if he hadn't, he was a catatonic mess after years of torture. Also, in the end, the decision saved them, because Gabriel was only able to take out Asmodeus because of his restored grace. There was no way this scenario was ending with the Winchesters getting what they wanted unless Gabriel agreed.

Spoiler

I do think we should be more careful in talking about Dean saying yes to Michael. Even though it hasn't been confirmed in spoilers, the spoiler about Jensen playing not!Dean is what has a lot of us on board. Castiel'sCat has been saying it for a while, and if the discussion is framed as a response to a comment by her (?), I think we're in the clear, but as a whole I think it would be pretty apparent to the unspoiled that a lot of these immediate "Well, it seems we will finally be getting Michael!Dean" reactions are likely responding to some hints. So, I don't think the whole conversation needs to be in spoilers but we should take care to put it in a context that doesn't sound like "spoilery-spec confirmed"!

On that note, while I do think we're definitely getting a Dean finally says Yes plot, I don't think he'll do it simply to get Michael's grace, since I can't imagine this isn't leading up to Gabriel finally agreeing to help them. He's apparently going to be central in at least one more episode, which wouldn't really make sense if it is just going to end in him refusing Sam and Dean again. If and when Dean says "yes," to Michael, I think it is going to be in order to take on AU Michael. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by companionenvy

[ukgirl71]

Thanks for the synopsis Sue.  Does anyone have a clip of that final scene?  I love watching powerhouse Jensen acting classes like that.

[ILoveReading]

48 minutes ago, ukgirl71 said:

Thanks for the synopsis Sue.  Does anyone have a clip of that final scene?  I love watching powerhouse Jensen acting classes like that.

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought Jared did well with the speech thought it made no sense. Honestly if they had reordered the speech until after Dean was back and they realized he didn't have mom and they had no way to reopen the rift it would have made so much more sense.

Overall I liked Ketch and Dean working together, though enough with the redemption. Ugh.

I hated Lucifer's scenes. So whiny. And while it was good for someone to go after Lucifer I didn't get where Jo's sass was coming from. I didn't consider her really good or pure from the way we met her but she sure was acting like it.

Cas reading the enochian and Gabriel and the porn stars line was awesome.

The highlight was obviously Dean's frustration at the end. Wow, Jensen nailed it. And I liked how Cas and Sam were blurred behind him and trying to calm him down. I found it very effective.

[bozodegama]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Bad - Gabriel stiffing them.  I just don't like it.  Doesn't make it a normal part of the storyline but I'm pissed at him.  He IS a DICK.  The thing he claims to hate.  Gabriel needs to show humilty and thankfulness to TFW.  If he skates thru this Apocalypse-like season without getting his head on straight, I'll be pissed.  I had sympathy for his torture but he was too smug at the end.

[MysteryGuest]

From what Sister Jo said the first time we met her, she said she'd had ideas about making Heaven work that no one would ever listen to.  I don't think she's necessarily power hungry, but she saw Lucifer as a means to an end, and working with him had the added bonus that he wouldn't just tap her grace and leave her for dead.  But I think she genuinely wants to make Heaven better, and Lucifer is proving to be a big disappointment.  I'm not sure where they're going with his storyline, but they need to do something.  Getting rid of him altogether would be my vote, but I doubt they'll do that.  I guess hell has a job opening he could apply for.

[ILoveReading]

LOL.  This is funny because its true.

[Pondlass1]

9 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

As much as I didn't like the writing in this episode, I did think Jensen did a super job.  

 

8 hours ago, SueB said:

He yells "Son of a Bitch" in about the angriest version of that line that I recall.

Despite ghastly puddle deep silly plot writing - Jensen owned the episode.  When he's not on screen I can't really be bothered.  I don't like Charlie.  I never did and although Felicia is probably a wonderful girl and friend to the show - a good actress she ain't.  The angel baddie, wanting intel, grasps a chunk of hair and snaps her head back - over the top yelling.  What?  These people have no clue  how to torture for info.  You chop off fingers - then you start on limbs. 

The whole Gabriel writing on the wall (what did he write with?) and suddenly being all ok was weak and took up too much time.  They've bothered themselves to bring him back so I guess well see him again to save the day with all this amazing grace that's being spurted about.

And why are angels corporeal and dressed in North American fashion while in Heaven?  Didn't Cas say he was the size of a tall building with a voice to match and Zach had four faces or something?  I just don't like the Heaven scenes... they are irritating because they don't make sense.  But I do want to give a shout out to Danneel.... I thought she was pretty good. She's learned a bit from hubby about reacting facial expression as the other actor is talking.

I guess Vancouver went through a cold snap - so it was winter time in the AU.  I liked the Dean/Ketch scenes although the Duo couldn't help themselves and had to have Ketch 'teach' Dean  how to be stealth.  But Dean was cool.  He's always cool.

I hope the Dreadful Duo don't get to write the Dean/Michael episode. They're awful at writing dialogue because they don't have a handle on character.  Thank goodness for our actors.

This season is such a mishmash with too much of everything sweeping us along without time to stop and smell the evil.  But I guess I've enjoyed it and will purchase the DVD.  Fingers crossed for a big blast at the end to kill off excess characters like Luci and Mother Mary.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

The whole Gabriel writing on the wall (what did he write with?) and suddenly being all ok was weak and took up too much time. 

I don't know that he needed a writing implement.  He was the trickster.  He could probably just think it onto the wall.

 

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

And why are angels corporeal and dressed in North American fashion while in Heaven?  Didn't Cas say he was the size of a tall building with a voice to match and Zach had four faces or something?  I just don't like the Heaven scenes... they are irritating because they don't make sense. 

I've been complaining about that since they've started showing Heaven.  At least Zachariah said that they were seeing him like that because their imagination was limited.  At the end of Season 4, when Cas was yanked back to Heaven, Jimmy was left behind.  You don't need a vessel in Heaven.  I realize that makes for a production nightmare, but the obvious solution is to stay out of Heaven.  I have yet to see one fan (I'm sure they're out there, but they must be the minority) to clamor for more Heaven scenes.

[Mulva]

So Dean wastes the entire time he was in Alt!World chasing after Alt!Charlie, then has a hissy fit because Sam returned Gabriel's stolen grace? 

Otherwise, I enjoyed the episode.  Dean and Ketch worked well together, and watching Evil Colonel Sanders fry was sweet.

[Pondlass1]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

the obvious solution is to stay out of Heaven.

I agree.  I can't take the Heaven scenes seriously.  

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Mulva said:

So Dean wastes the entire time he was in Alt!World chasing after Alt!Charlie, then has a hissy fit because Sam returned Gabriel's stolen grace? 

I don't think it was a waste.  He got info that Mary and Jack are alive and were no longer with Michael. Plus, they have Ketch over there as a contact, even they can ever make it back.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

ITA that the F-bomb was called for at the end. Amazing Ackting. And yes, he's the only reason that I'm still watching this show, too.

[Ray Adverb]

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have to say that I did call it in regard to the excuse they'd use to explain that Gabriel was still alive.  Maybe I missed it, but did they really give any explanation as to just how Asmodeus "caught" Gabriel after he'd escaped to PornWorld?  

Reading the descriptions for an upcoming episode (either next week or the week after), it looks like they're going to have some sort of Gabriel revenge story where they'll get into that.