S06.E04: Mr. And Mrs. Teacup

[Bannon]

I'm starting to suspect that we are headed towards a "Godfather III" ending, when a bullet meant for Liz kills Paige instead, and then we have a final scene with another time jump, a aged Liz, sitting in her chair in her drab Moscow apartment (Phil stays behind, having grasped the inefficiency of the traditional travel agency, and starts Travelocity) has a stroke while eating her treasured beef stew, and falls to the floor. 

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I need some timeline help. It's currently supposed to be around October 24, 1987 as the group was watching Game 6 of the World Series. Kimmy is going to college in Michigan. How has Philip been getting the tapes? It's kind of odd to come home from school in the middle of October if you go to school a decent distance away. Then, she told "Jim" that she's going to Greece over the summer with her friends. How does that impact getting intel on the Summit? Isn't that taking place soon? Just looked it up, it was in December. In the previews we see:

  Hide contents

E is telling P that Kimmy is not a child anymore. We see "Jim" kissing Kimmy. Implying that he's going to have to start sleeping with her to keep her in town.

But if the summit is in December this makes no sense.

The Soviets have invented batteries and audio tape with infinite capacity, obviously. Then the Centre flipped the President of the University of Michigan, who was able to get the Michigan legislature to open an adjunct campus in Chevy Chase, Maryland, so Kim can stay at home with daddy, and his convieniently placed brief case, for the balance of 1987.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Exactly. Or if the male character killed an elderly woman doing bookkeeping work who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...etc, etc.

 

It's really a silly line. It's not like the show isn't presenting these things as horrible things. And not all American movies are Rambo. They're capable of showing Americans hurting innocent people in other countries in ways that are supposed to cause moral repugnance.

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder when Paige lost her virginity, was she in love?  Was it just a crush?  Was she practicing spying?  Because honestly, I doubt this was her first time with her "afterglow" reaction.

 

I can't imagine them trying to suggest Paige lost her virginity when she was in love. Not having any real relationships is central to her character. Everything she does is filtered through the Cause. I think it also goes back to Elizabeth's "I don't have to be afraid" speech. Paige doesn't have relationships. She just pretends everything is a job she's doing to save the world. Maybe we'll actually meet that guy next week but it's not surprising that this week he's just some faceless person and we see Paige performing interest without us being able to hear what he's saying so there's no real connection we can see. 

The one person in the story who was trying to be honest with her was rejected. As usual.

10 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Regarding the bolded statement, Oleg made an interesting comment to Philip about Liz: “her loyalty can be used.” 

 

It was such an interesting line because Philip is defending his wife's character to Oleg and Oleg is assuring him by saying Philip can think of the whole thing as Elizabeth being manipulated. Philip can see that Elizabeth is herself threatened by change and wants everyone to suffer the way she sees herself as suffering. Oleg allowed him to put off the reckoning of asking himself if Elizabeth is, as Oleg suggested in the premiere, "one of them."

9 hours ago, skippylou said:

And when do you suppose our favorite little genius, Paige Jennings,  will read about the dead security guards at that factory?  Was it mass suicide on the same night that mom when in?

 

She probably doesn't read the US papers. Fake news!

 

9 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Watched this episode with my daughter, who interned for a representative last summer.  She laughed at Paige's honeypot attempt; apparently interns aren't exactly privy to sensitive information.  "What is he going to tell her," said daughter. "Where the Chief of Staff keeps her secret stash of gel pens? 

 

Of course not! That was one of the other things that was so stupid. He's an intern for a senator. There's tons of them. There's no sensitive information there, it's just Paige wanting to play spy because she literally can't do anything in her life that she doesn't pretend is saving the world. She doesn't even have the ambition to try to be an intern. Does she imagine the Centre is going to get her that State Department job?

9 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Except that if he's still been working Kimmy's Dad's Briefcase tapes for three years, he really hasn't been out at all.

Philip's possibly STILL one of the most productive spies on the books, since he's the one with the source linked to the Head of the Soviet Division! William worked for decades for nothing. 

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

Look, they've been highly suggestive that he is a star hockey player, and hockey is huge at schools like that, because hockey is big at Harvard, Dartmouth, Princeton, Notre Dame, and other elite colleges. If they don't want viewers thinking that way about Henry, then they should not have written those scenes.

He's apparently a shoe-in for captain next year and given the AP Calculus remark and the fact he still has a scholarship, he's still a great student as well. The point of the Henry story seems to absolutely be that Henry is *flourishing* at this place and now Philip feels bad having to take it away from him. Henry exaggerating his importance or slacking off directly contradicts all the tension of the story: It's all Philip's fault for not understanding capitalism. So we're supposed to pretend a school obviously based on the top East Coast prep schools is willing to let him go so they can lean on his middle class father for tuition. 

Quote

 

"Obsession with Henry's tuition shortfall"  --- Because if Philip defaults on Henry's tuition the entire local configuration will change radically as Henry moves back home (and becomes a presence rather than someone on the phone) )

 

 

 

I was honestly surprised that when Philip told her about Henry Elizabeth didn't just put her foot down about exactly that: she'll ask the Centre to pay because she can't deal with the inconvenience, period.

Quote

If Elizabeth still considers Henry a prospective second-generation, she "should" care about his education and access to the elites (as well as the finances of successfully launching two children into adulthood) even if Henry's is "Phillip's problem" 

I don't think they're doing this, but I'd like it if they did something to admit that Elizabeth has even more blindspots about how the USA works than Philip. For instance, the fact that she doesn't seem to even notice what a great second-gen Henry would make with his skills and seems to think that becoming Secretary of State is really easy if you can nail down the ability to nervously walk down a hallway carrying a purse with a camera. She's training Paige to be herself--a woman with no real place in US society who sniffs around the fringes of power for crumbs, often through sex. (It's probably also relevant to mention that Henry's a boy, which in itself gives him a big advantage when it comes to these careers.)

Quote

Yes, that would be very Soviet of him, to think that one must endure difficulties in the present for a pipe dream of some bright future that may never come.

I actually meant more the opposite, that he was seeing that it was doomed and Elizabeth's advice was like putting a band-aid on a severed arm.

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Stavos’ line dancing skills have improved and he seems to be enjoying himself now. Not as much as Phillip. Nobody in that bar was having as good a time as Phillip.

That reminds me of a podcast I listened to once about how happiness is relative. There was one guy interviewed whose father grew up in a very difficult time in Pakistan and he talked about how he was really jealous of his father's ability to enjoy little things in life. I thought it was kind of great to show Philip being able to have fun just by dancing with his memories of such a sad life where he was always struggling. It's such a contrast to Elizabeth's need to make everything about work and having content for people enjoying anything.

Gee, it would be nice if we could see some flashbacks to Philip's life where we saw him learning to do this.

Quote

 Then, she told "Jim" that she's going to Greece over the summer with her friends. How does that impact getting intel on the Summit? Isn't that taking place soon? 

She's going to Greece at Thanksgiving.

Edited April 19, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Penman61]

8 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Have we ever heard Philip sing? I mean, he’s got the boots, hat, and line-dance moves. Surely, being Russian, he could come up with a few lines about his sad life and record a platinum-selling country music song. 

 

 

From Philip's debut album, This Country Ain't Rushin':

I've Got a Secret (And It's Not in My Boots)
You're Blowin' My Cover
Ain't No Wig Can Hide My Love (For You)
Hard-Hearted Woman In Love With a Thirty-Seven-Timin' Man
Martha
Ain't No Country But My Country (two versions, original and acoustic)
 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Penman61

[ChromaKelly]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

She's going to Greece at Thanksgiving.

OK! Thank you. That makes more sense. Although it's still kind of odd. Thanksgiving isn't a really long break and I would think most kids would still go home and not on vacation. But at least timewise, it fits.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

From his Philip's debut album, This Country Ain't Rushin':

I've Got a Secret (And It's Not in My Boots)
You're Blowin' My Cover
Ain't No Wig Can Hide My Love (For You)
Hard-Hearted Woman In Love With a Thirty-Seven-Timin' Man
Martha
Ain't No Country But My Country (two versions, original and acoustic)
 

Great, now I will be bitterly disappointed if this isn't part of the final episode.....

[rlc]

Call me Kreskin, but I’m thinking this isn’t going to end well for anyone.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's really a silly line. It's not like the show isn't presenting these things as horrible things. And not all American movies are Rambo. They're capable of showing Americans hurting innocent people in other countries in ways that are supposed to cause moral repugnance.

 

 

 

Somebody oughta' tell the New York Times t.v. critic about a show called "The Sopranos" where major characters, all American males, did a lot of killing, and large parts of the viewing audience had no hesitation in seeing a lot of it as morally repugnant.

[jjj]

I have to say that Greece for Thanksgiving break is quite a stretch.  At most, she would get two days actually in Greece, with it taking a day to get there and back. 

I'm surprised that killing the courier Gannady is such a priority.  He doesn't know anything, and there were MUCH higher-profile defectors in the 1980s.  A hockey player in the news just is not kill-worthy.  And that was Claudia's reason, not that he knew anything.  

Edited April 19, 2018 by jjj

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

From Philip's debut album, This Country Ain't Rushin':

I've Got a Secret (And It's Not in My Boots)
You're Blowin' My Cover
Ain't No Wig Can Hide My Love (For You)
Hard-Hearted Woman In Love With a Thirty-Seven-Timin' Man
Martha
Ain't No Country But My Country (two versions, original and acoustic)
 

 

Woah, while I was thinking of his Achy-Breaky Heart, you went for the whole album. I smell a Grammy! What is the equivalent in Russia?

Seriously, your song titles are wonderful!

May I add
Nadezhda, Don't Take Your Love to Moscow
They'll Put Me on a Stamp One Day
and later a duet with Elizabeth: Our Love Took a Lickin' But We Still Got a Stamp

Maybe after the Wall falls he'll go over and do a live show in a Siberian prison. Thus coming full circle with his childhood as the son of a Gulag guard.

Edited April 19, 2018 by RedHawk
I can't quit these song titles. Too much fun!

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

She's training Paige to be herself--a woman with no real place in US society who sniffs around the fringes of power for crumbs, often through sex. (It's probably also relevant to mention that Henry's a boy, which in itself gives him a big advantage when it comes to these careers.)

Great observations.  I wish I thought Elizabeth was capable of realizing that after 25(?) years as an illegal she's still a go-fer, assassin, often blind order-follower, with little agency (except following orders) whose input/opinion about anything beyond this or that mission is nonexistent.  I have doubts that Claudia gets much say-so beyond sports-coach assessment of the "team's" capabilities to fulfill missions assigned from above.  Back at that hive, above Claudia, where intelligence and planning are carried out is where there is some actual power. 

It's great that Elizabeth is "kick-ass" but she's just a largely replaceable cog in a machine ... and she's old enough to recognize this and want something better for Paige than massive disguise skills (her unshakable wig game is masterful) and a great wardrobe ... 

[rhys]

Who is paying for Paige's tuition? If it's P&E, they should opt out for awhile in order to pay for Henry's senior year. Does E draw a salary?

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Woah, while I was thinking of his Achy-Breaky Heart, you went for the whole album. I smell a Grammy! What is the equivalent in Russia?

May I add Nadezhda, Don't Take Your Love to Moscow

Does Yakov Smirnoff agree to be the warm up comic act, for Phil's first nationwide tour?

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

OK! Thank you. That makes more sense. Although it's still kind of odd. Thanksgiving isn't a really long break and I would think most kids would still go home and not on vacation.

True, but that might also explain why she's home on a weekend in October -- because she won't be there for Thanksgiving and wanted to put in a make-up appearance.

It's also helpful to recall Kimmy's backstory. She has fond memories of her family life when she was young and her mother was still alive, but as a teenager she resented that her father, stepmom, and older siblings were never around to pay her any attention. At Philip's urging she worked on improving her relationship with her father -- which may be why she's more committed than most college students to making regular appearances at home.

By the way, I went back and checked the warehouse scene, and contrary to my initial impressions Elizabeth is definitely using a regular gun with a silencer, not a dart gun. On first viewing I missed the moment where she has to shoot the one guard a second time in the head because the first bullet might not have put him down permanently. (I may have been predisposed to assuming the weapon was a dart gun because the sequence was so reminiscent of the video game series Splinter Cell, where shooting out lights and tranking guards is one of the main gameplay elements.)

Edited April 19, 2018 by Dev F

[shura]

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I actually meant more the opposite, that he was seeing that it was doomed and Elizabeth's advice was like putting a band-aid on a severed arm.

All the more reasons to lay off at least some of his employees now and cut his losses. I nominate Stavos. That dude is weird, I certainly would not come back to buy another trip from him. And he probably makes enough to make a nice dent in the Henry problem. Instead, Philip chooses to mope and sigh over his bank statements. How is that a better option?

When Paige was walking down the hotel hallway waving her purse from side to side, I was thinking there is no way those pictures would have anything in focus.

[RedHawk]

10 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Woah, while I was thinking of his Achy-Breaky Heart, you went for the whole album. I smell a Grammy! What is the equivalent in Russia?

Seriously, these are wonderful!

May I add
Nadezhda, Don't Take Your Love to Moscow
They'll Put Me on a Stamp One Day

And later perhaps, his duet with Elizabeth, Our Love Took a Lickin' But We Each Got a Stamp

2 minutes ago, shura said:

All the more reasons to lay off at least some of his employees now and cut his losses. I nominate Stavos. That dude is weird, I certainly would not come back to buy another trip from him. And he probably makes enough to make a nice dent in the Henry problem. Instead, Philip chooses to mope and sigh over his bank statements. How is that a better option?

When Paige was walking down the hotel hallway waving her purse from side to side, I was thinking there is no way those pictures would have anything in focus.

True! Paige's incompetency streak is unbroken.

[Ellaria]

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's really a silly line. It's not like the show isn't presenting these things as horrible things. And not all American movies are Rambo. They're capable of showing Americans hurting innocent people in other countries in ways that are supposed to cause moral repugnance.

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Somebody oughta' tell the New York Times t.v. critic about a show called "The Sopranos" where major characters, all American males, did a lot of killing, and large parts of the viewing audience had no hesitation in seeing a lot of it as morally repugnant.

Not really sure what is being referred to as the "silly line" but I was responding to the quote from the NY Times columnist suggesting the the Elizabeth-hate was due, in part, because she was a woman rather than a man. My post - in its entirety - pointed out that lots of characters on this show do repugnant things. Right now, we are seeing Elizabeth doing quite a few and thus the current reaction.

 

13 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Great observations.  I wish I thought Elizabeth was capable of realizing that after 25(?) years as an illegal she's still a go-fer, assassin, often blind order-follower, with little agency (except following orders) whose input/opinion about anything beyond this or that mission is nonexistent.  I have doubts that Claudia gets much say-so beyond sports-coach assessment of the "team's" capabilities to fulfill missions assigned from above.  Back at that hive, above Claudia, where intelligence and planning are carried out is where there is some actual power. 

It's great that Elizabeth is "kick-ass" but she's just a largely replaceable cog in a machine ... and she's old enough to recognize this and want something better for Paige than massive disguise skills (her unshakable wig game is masterful) and a great wardrobe ... 

Great post. It comes back to Oleg's statement about the ability to use Elizabeth's loyalty. Like Philip, Stan, Oleg, she is being used to achieve an outcome.

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, jjj said:

I have to say that Greece for Thanksgiving break is quite a stretch.  At most, she would get two days actually in Greece, with it taking a day to get there and back. 

I'm surprised that killing the courier Gannady is such a priority.  He doesn't know anything, and there were MUCH higher-profile defectors in the 1980s.  A hockey player in the news just is not kill-worthy.  And that was Claudia's reason, not that he knew anything.  

Besides, it would be much, much, worse for the Soviet image in the world for them to whack a star hockey player and his wife, than to have him badmouthing the Soviet system. It's not as if he is some high level KGB defector, who can do real intelligence damage. Gawd, now Liz is going to drag Paige along on overt asassination missions. Ugh.

[RedHawk]

Ok, despite my dislike of most things Paige, her character does have a function and the more I ponder this episode and the season so far, the more I still love this show. So many layers and mirrors. 

Parents and children figure strongly in this ep. Igor Burov's fear for Oleg, and how Oleg's mother is sick with worry. Phillip's pain at having to tell Henry he might not be able to stay at the school. Elizabeth seeking approval from her substitute mother Claudia and Paige seeking approval from her mother. Elizabeth has very much used "handling" methods on Paige and doesn't quite seem aware of it. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Not really sure what is being referred to as the "silly line" but I was responding to the quote from the NY Times columnist suggesting the the Elizabeth-hate was due, in part, because she was a woman rather than a man. My post - in its entirety - pointed out that lots of characters on this show do repugnant things. Right now, we are seeing Elizabeth doing quite a few and thus the current reaction.

 

Great post. It comes back to Oleg's statement about the ability to use Elizabeth's loyalty. Like Philip, Stan, Oleg, she is being used to achieve an outcome.

I was responding to the thought the NYT columnist put forth, that an American audience would not have a sense of moral repugnance in watching an American male character engage in a large quantity of murders. I don't think that is true.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, jjj said:

I'm surprised that killing the courier Gannady is such a priority.  He doesn't know anything, and there were MUCH higher-profile defectors in the 1980s.  A hockey player in the news just is not kill-worthy.  And that was Claudia's reason, not that he knew anything.  

You'd think it would be more newsworthy that the Soviets murdered a hockey player to keep him from being PR for the US. He has a kid--will Elizabeth be murdering them all next week? At this point I feel she really has to. It's like the "Oh my god, they killed Kenny!" of this season. 

9 minutes ago, shura said:

And he probably makes enough to make a nice dent in the Henry problem. Instead, Philip chooses to mope and sigh over his bank statements. How is that a better option?

I think the point is that there's not that much of a big different between the options. Of course there's no problem with him laying people off for some extra money, but it's quite possible that it's not so simple as taking somebody's salary and being able to redirect it to Henry's tuition. 

God, who ever thought I'd be giving this much thought to cash flow at the travel agency. Yawn.

11 minutes ago, Dev F said:

True, but that might also explain why she's home on a weekend in October -- because she won't be there for Thanksgiving and wanted to put in a make-up appearance.

 

Yup, she explicitly said exactly that.

Another thing that struck me in this ep is how Elizabeth as ever seems to have so many people around her who are trying to be there for her. Claudia isn't too great at it, but the artist is being pretty nice trying to tell her about art, she's also got Philip trying to talk to her (he was doing that before he got the job from Oleg), the priest who wants to give her marriage counseling. 

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Not really sure what is being referred to as the "silly line" but I was responding to the quote from the NY Times columnist suggesting the the Elizabeth-hate was due, in part, because she was a woman rather than a man. My post - in its entirety - pointed out that lots of characters on this show do repugnant things. Right now, we are seeing Elizabeth doing quite a few and thus the current reaction.

 

I was referring to the line in the review that suggested we wouldn't find Elizabeth's actions morally repugnant if an American was doing it, which imo is silly. There's plenty of examples of movies and shows where Americans do things we're meant to see as morally repugnant and do--including stories where Americans are doing these things to people in other countries. 

I would also disagree that the reaction to her comes down to her being a woman. There's a lot of people who love that Elizabeth is a badass--other people don't like her for the damages she causes. People were the same way with Walter White. Yes, there were people who cheered him on as a power fantasy, but it's not like nobody thought it was terrible!

[RedHawk]

Deleted because I was on the wrong track.

Edited April 19, 2018 by RedHawk

[SusanSunflower]

Paige reminds me of the old joke when I was in high school about refusing to take typing because you'd never be relieved of secretarial duties ...  my mother also warned about learning plumbing for similar reasons, that it made it all the more difficult to simply wait-out a bad landlord ...   Paige has now been dirtied and will be dirtied further... she has swallowed implausible explanations and excuses, and when it is recognized that has seduced to gain proximity and she has spread her legs ... well, good luck objecting to demands or, erm, requests she do the same for the "cause" in the future. 

[Ellaria]

@sistermagpie

@Bannon

Thanks. Then we are in complete agreement about the columnist for the NY Times. He isn't giving viewers' much credit. As you both pointed out, "The Sopranos" and "Breaking Bad" are two excellent examples that counter his statement.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Right. When Phillip killed the guy in the computer lab and stuffed him in a trash can, hung poor Gene, and broke the lab guy's back, I found it deeply repugnant. The difference is that Phillip displays a glimmer of conscience and Elizabeth does not. Nothing to do with male and female.

I was repulsed by a good many of the killings Walter White participated in. As I stated earlier in the thread, if Liz and Phil had only murdered American military personnel, or CIA and FBI agents, I would not be nearly as repulsed. This U.S./U.S.S.R. relationship really was a cold war, and not every war has sanctioned the wholesale slaughter of civilian populations.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

This U.S./U.S.S.R. relationship really was a cold war, and not every war has sanctioned the wholesale slaughter of civilian populations.

What's also funny is that presumably Elizabeth was working for Mexico City (the guy she met there) in this ep. So it's not even like she's working for her government. She's working against her own leader's negotiations in the peace talks.

[Pickles]

I know I am cynical, but is Elizabeth really a star spy? I know there are other Russian spies out there, but it appears as though Elizabeth alone will conquer the evil USA. It just seems kind of ridiculous to me. She is so convinced that everything she does will help Russia prevail over America. She is so brainwashed. She is killing people left and right, but is never tracked by the police, FBI, no one. Just leaves all of the victims and gets away scott  free. I suppose she will be killed off at the end. Maybe her death will be a "suicide" in the park. And Paige is a laughable spy. The beret, the glasses, the serious look. She looks like a ten year old kid dressed for Halloween.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I know I am cynical, but is Elizabeth really a star spy? I know there are other Russian spies out there, but it appears as though Elizabeth alone will conquer the evil USA. It just seems kind of ridiculous to me. She is so convinced that everything she does will help Russia prevail over America. She is so brainwashed. She is killing people left and right, but is never tracked by the police, FBI, no one. Just leaves all of the victims and gets away scott  free. I suppose she will be killed off at the end. Maybe her death will be a "suicide" in the park. And Paige is a laughable spy. The beret, the glasses, the serious look. She looks like a ten year old kid dressed for Halloween.

This latest kill-fest is the dumbest of them all. It would be a huge national news story that a bunch of security guards at a defense contractor were slaughtered. There would be hundreds of FBI agents working on it. Liz will probably tell dummy Paige that they all committed suicide out of a sense of shame for letting Liz break in. Phil will have to start to suspect that he isn't Paige's biological father, but rather Liz had Paige after honeypotting some moron security guard schlub she needed to get a set of keys from. They'll show this in a flashback, along with Liz verbalizing to Claudia or Gabriel that she is resolved to simply kill schlubs in the future, rather than have such unpleasant sex ever again. 

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I know I am cynical, but is Elizabeth really a star spy?

I think objectively speaking, she's very good. She's reliable, can juggle numerous missions, and doesn't need much hand-holding. The fact that she's been able to stay under the radar for so long speaks to her skills (aside from the fact that the story demands it, of course). 

[Mumbles]

Quote

The best thing about angry, sick artist lady is Elizabeth can;t figure her out. (Also the actress, Miriam Shor, is killing it.)

Agreed. I agree with folks that the writing is getting thin but I really admire the writing concerning this character. I commend the actor and the writing of this character and how complex the experience is - the anger, the boredom, the terror, the moments of grace and warmth. My heart broke a little when she got so ill at the party, having been denied a small respite.

[Ellaria]

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

This latest kill-fest is the dumbest of them all. It would be a huge national news story that a bunch of security guards at a defense contractor were slaughtered. There would be hundreds of FBI agents working on it. 

The security guards coupled with the general's "suicide" in the park and the murder of the navy officer on a dark street...

At the very least, any of these situations would merit some coverage in the local DC newspapers and the nightly news as individual incidents. I am still hoping that Paige reads/sees reporting of these incidents and has a bit of epiphany about what is going on while she is sitting in cars wearing berets and glasses. Frankly, I don't care if it gives her a greater commitment to the cause. I just want to see her acknowledge that bonding with Mom is a serious matter.

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't think the briefcase tapes have infinite life span.  I think Philip just gets them when he can, and he and the Center hope for the best of what they'll find.  Of course "Jim" will encourage Kimmie to visit family as often as possible, but within reason.  They don't want to blow the cover/op.  Of course, now with the summit coming up, they'll want to up the ante and take bigger risks to keep her around and getting the tapes more often.
 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Mumbles said:

Agreed. I agree with folks that the writing is getting thin but I really admire the writing concerning this character. I commend the actor and the writing of this character and how complex the experience is - the anger, the boredom, the terror, the moments of grace and warmth. My heart broke a little when she got so ill at the party, having been denied a small respite.

Again, for the life of me, I do not understand how writers who produced a major arc like Martha's, or a shorter one like the terminally ill artist's, of such obvious high quality, could have also produced so much lazy eye-rolling nonsense.

[mattie0808]

4 hours ago, benteen said:

I don't know why everyone is ol surprised that Philip is working the Kimmie mission.  Elizabeth specifically said at the end of last season that Philip would continue to work the Kimmie mission despite his retirement.  It's kind of like back in Season 4 when Philip and Elizabeth were allowed to reduce their schedule for a few months, only working the Kimmie mission for Philip and the Young Hee mission for Elizabeth.  So Philip isn't completely retired.

For me, it’s more that the time jump should have made it damn near impossible for him to be regularly working Kimmie’s dad. I did think that immediately after the end of last season, he’d have to work this no matter what. BUT, since then the girl has gone away to college! For several years! And she’s far away (it’s not like she’s going to Georgetown or something and can still be around regularly).

 

Also, sure Phillip only has one case, so to speak, to work, but it’s the head of the Soviet division at the CIA! That’s probably the most important source they have by far. I’m amazed they’re really treating him as retired and completely out of the loop. He can’t be if he’s working that guy!

 

This show so far this year is frustrating. Some of it is great or has great potential (E vs P, anything with Oleg), and some it is just nonsensical or problematic (PAIGE!). I hope they start ginning up some momentum for the finish here...

[Captain Asshat]

11 hours ago, skippylou said:

One of the future episodes, second last, is titled "Jennings, Elizabeth".  Sounds like the beginning of a Death Notice in the Falls Church newspaper.

Or, maybe, how she'd respond if she was captured and interrogated?

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I don't think the briefcase tapes have infinite life span.  I think Philip just gets them when he can, and he and the Center hope for the best of what they'll find.  Of course "Jim" will encourage Kimmie to visit family as often as possible, but within reason.  They don't want to blow the cover/op.  Of course, now with the summit coming up, they'll want to up the ante and take bigger risks to keep her around and getting the tapes more often.
 

Yeah, and high level CIA managers, known to have been identified by a foreign intelligence service, never get their homes or briefcases swept for listening devices, for years, even after Gaad's FBI career was ended by a bug in a ballpoint pen.

I am willing to suspend disbelief, but I have my limits.

[RedHawk]

Phillip pondering his life and remembering his starving childhood as he looks at his turkey sandwich, potato chips, and Coca-Cola, the classic American desk lunch. How far he is from that hungry little boy, and now his son is happy and thriving in a top school while his daughter is being turned into a cold-hearted spy. Paige doesn't even say "hi" or "goodbye" to her dad, just like Henry never asks to speak to his mom. 

Also it struck me that the Jenningses are now like the Beemans in that Stan and Sandra broke up mostly because Stan worked a secretive job that was eroding him inside and he couldn't talk to or connect with his own wife about his stresses and struggles. Now we have Elizabeth being ground down but unable to open up to Phillip about everything she's going through.

[misstwpherecool]

Just as last year there seems to be a lot of set up this year which at least is moving faster.

Philips money troubles could go several ways steering him away from capitalism and back to communism or he'll go all in since he's already committed crimes a con, bank robbery, heist etc wouldn't be beyond his skills or morals. Many have pointed out the centre would never let their cover/travel agency go bankrupt but  this is late in the Cold War where the west out spent Russia into peace, they had serious money economic troubles by the end. If anything he might be moved and the travel agency would be a semi legit resume entry.

What could happen is that Henry, coaches or teachers could file/help Henry apply for financial aide which could blow P & Es cover if somethings can't be verified. That might be just a side issue though.

When Stan was driving around he was being followed which is setting up the discovery of the safe house and probable hit on the defector. Since both FBI and KGB seem to short on resources this will probably be a sloppy job. Speaking of which how many dead bodies have to show up at defense contractors before alarm bells are rung?

[SusanSunflower]

Phillip's Travel Agency is more than 10 years old (possibly almost twice that) in a good location ... and as far as we know, his business loans were with legitimate lenders (not sharks) ...  They have no interest in the travel agency or Philip going bankrupt and get 10 cents on the dollar ...  

[mattie0808]

The travel agency is still Elizabeth’s main, ongoing, reliable, day-to-day cover isn’t it? (And, Mr. “I’m retired except for the minor consideration of the head of the Soviet Division”’s too.) How on earth can the KGB allow it to be in any real danger at all? Putting aside the idea that they should have been all over covering Henry’s tuition costs (because scholarships don’t go that far?) for separate reasons, even if they’re furious at Phillip for “retiring,” or not running the business properly, I can’t conceive of an operational justification for them letting the business fail, or even come close to or within shouting distance of failing. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by mattie0808

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

This latest kill-fest is the dumbest of them all.

It's so funny at this point. They start it off with a set up that's obviously supposed to be impressive with people in cars, only in the role of Philip we've got Paige out in the car in yet another knit hat trying desperately to project coolness. They all have walkie talkies and badass silent nods. Elizabeth is in her cat burglar outfit. This is a warehouse that should have pretty great security.

Elizabeth walks in, sets off an alarm, has enough time to run around shooting a lot of poor schmoes and then runs out to where Marilyn is waiting to drive away in the car. I guess we're supposed to cheer that Paige managed to start the car and drive away when told to do so without accidentally backing into a fence or something.

That stellar performance means she gets to have a fun debriefing about what's really important: How Paige is feeling! Elizabeth admits that sometimes that's how the job works, that you don't get what you want. She doesn't admit that sometimes you murder a bunch of people to not get what you wanted. Seems like that operation was pretty much a giant mess? Does she have to kill a bunch more people next week to get this thingie? Probably after she kills the courier family?

It's just funny how Elizabeth's always been so contemptuous at feelings etc. and her training of Paige is more about them than years of EST. 

40 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

Also, sure Phillip only has one case, so to speak, to work, but it’s the head of the Soviet division at the CIA! That’s probably the most important source they have by far. I’m amazed they’re really treating him as retired and completely out of the loop. He can’t be if he’s working that guy!

 

It reminds me of how viewers for years claimed that Martha was just some dead weight that they should kill and didn't seem to realize that Philip's long term assets were the best ones they had. Especially Martha.

I really do wonder where they're going with Elizabeth and Paige. They made a pretty strong choice to have Paige just as dumb and duped as she's been since the reveal in season 3 but I still can't be totally sure the showrunners don't think this is just normal for a brilliant girl her age because they seem to talk about her that way. I hope not, because she's quickly moving into an even more dangerous area where she's not just clueless, she's clueless *and* arrogant, imagining herself as some important spy for sleeping with a congressional intern despite her mother's warnings and lecturing people on park suicide. Elizabeth makes yet another pronouncement about Paige based on no evidence. This time it's that she "learns from her mistakes." (Probably because Philip wouldn't have bought the usual "Paige is GOOD at this stuff!")

But as I said before, her mother's warnings are pretty thin anyway. Elizabeth's throwing her into situations that could get her in far bigger trouble and obviously couldn't really care less about Paige's future job. She just as obviously rewards anything spy related and loses interest at anything but isn't. I won't be surprised if Elizabeth winds up encouraging her with the intern for some contrived reason while she pimps Philip out to Kimmy for summit info.

33 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Phillip pondering his life and remembering his starving childhood as he looks at his turkey sandwich, potato chips, and Coca-Cola, the classic American desk lunch. How far he is from that hungry little boy,

Sadly, I find myself still going down the rabbit hole of trying to create some sort of a timeline for it. Was that scene from before or after his father died? Was that something he did before and after he died? Did food become even harder to come by after his father's death? (Sure seems like it should have.) They were standing by a service entrance; was that a restaurant? Just some official building with a mess hall? Damn, I wish we could have had some dialogue with that other little girl. 

17 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

What could happen is that Henry, coaches or teachers could file/help Henry apply for financial aide which could blow P & Es cover if somethings can't be verified. That might be just a side issue though.

 

I would think their financial records would probably hold up. Philip just said he got a bank loan. But then, Henry's problems would be more obviously solved by him just getting a scholarship. The way it's described now financial aid is pretty much what he's on now. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by sistermagpie

[misstwpherecool]

6 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Phillip's Travel Agency is more than 10 years old (possibly almost twice that) in a good location ... and as far as we know, his business loans were with legitimate lenders (not sharks) ...  They have no interest in the travel agency or Philip going bankrupt and get 10 cents on the dollar ...  

The agency was probably set up as legit decades ago but the last thing one wants is their spies in court even if for a bankruptcy hearing. My guess if it does tank they would be advised to close up shop as quietly as possible. Bring's a point though. How legit would they have tried to set it up in the 60s or 70s. Did they buy the property with cash? Apparently P & Es paper trail was good enough to get a loan.

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, skippylou said:

E is preparing Paige for State, CIA or DOD?  Seriously?  Is that why she takes her along on a burglary at a guarded facility?  

12 hours ago, jjj said:

And I have to say, now that they have overtly stated to Paige that she is getting ready to work in the State Department, *WHY* are they sending her on these ridiculous mini-missions?  They should be telling her to spend all her time hitting the books, talking to professors, getting internships, and making connections that will help her meteoric rise in diplomacy.  

That is my biggest problem with the Paige storyline too. Instead of sleeping with interns she should be one. 

13 hours ago, Shriekingeel said:

Why can’t Phillip hit up the Centre for some cash, via Margo Martindale?

That's my question. There must be some front groups with legitimate travel needs that the Centre can send to Dupont Travel Angency. 

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also, what was up with her claiming that Henry was doing whatever Philip wanted him to do? It's the opposite--Henry's doing what he wants and Philip's glad to watch him do it. It's not like there's any evidence that Henry's playing hockey or getting good grades because it gets Dad to say "I'm so proud of you, Henry." Elizabeth just projects on everybody.

I thought that was strange too. Philip wasn't all gung-ho when Henry first mentioned boarding school. 

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Also, it's quite possible Henry only had a scholarship for that first year.  All scholarships are different, especially legacy types. 

Legacy means going to the same school your parents went to, which is not Henry's situation. I have never heard of a scholarship lasting only one year. 

11 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

The point is that Henry's placement in that private school could easily save the Jennings a lot of money in the near future ...  It's "nice" that Paige has her singles pad, but not a necessity and it's also something that if she really wanted it, she might be able to afford with a part time job while high school students at private school do not often (as far as I remember) have work/study placement opportunities (that were common in college back in my day, particularly for scholarship kids who enjoyed on-campus jobs with flexible schedules) 

You are correct. In college it is easier to have a part time job on campus or off campus. (This would have been a great story-line for Paige. Get her an off campus job at a restaurant/coffee near one of the intelligence/government agencies. That way she could be still be doing spy stuff but in a way that would not put her future at risk). In college there are also work study jobs, which are usually on campus. In private schools, especially boarding schools this type of work study situation is far less common. 

11 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

Yes, but Elizabeth is still in and the travel agency is still very much a part of her cover.

The Centre should make sure the agency does not go into bankruptcy and Henry stays at the prep school.  Elizabeth needs the agency for her cover and Henry would be a much greater asset for future recruitment with the contacts he makes at the prep school.

Exactly right. The Centre needs the travel agency so Elizabeth can keep her cover story, and if they are looking at Henry, they would want him at the school because right now, he is making better contacts/connections than Paige. 

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Is line dancing still popular?

I actually thought of line dancing as more of an early 90s thing than a late 80s thing, but I could be wrong. 

4 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

What could happen is that Henry, coaches or teachers could file/help Henry apply for financial aide which could blow P & Es cover if somethings can't be verified. That might be just a side issue though.

Paige could apply for different forms of financial aide because she is in college but not Henry. Those types of programs do not cover private school before college. 

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Woah, while I was thinking of his Achy-Breaky Heart, you went for the whole album. I smell a Grammy! What is the equivalent in Russia?

Seriously, your song titles are wonderful!

May I add
Nadezhda, Don't Take Your Love to Moscow
They'll Put Me on a Stamp One Day
and later a duet with Elizabeth: Our Love Took a Lickin' But We Still Got a Stamp

Maybe after the Wall falls he'll go over and do a live show in a Siberian prison. Thus coming full circle with his childhood as the son of a Gulag guard.

 

Oh my goodness, tell me there isn't a hit recording from the "Live from the Gulag" album, of "A boy named Val", featuring the lyric  "I shot a petty bourgeois class enemy in Vladivostok, just to watch him die...."

Edited April 19, 2018 by Bannon

[Sarah 103]

8 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

The agency was probably set up as legit decades ago but the last thing one wants is their spies in court even if for a bankruptcy hearing. My guess if it does tank they would be advised to close up shop as quietly as possible. Bring's a point though. How legit would they have tried to set it up in the 60s or 70s. Did they buy the property with cash? Apparently P & Es paper trail was good enough to get a loan.

I agree that the travel agency is a totally legitmate business and was designed to be one/appear like it from day one. Do we know how long they've lived in DC? Maybe the travel agency wasn't thier original cover. They could have worked at other jobs first to earn money/build up credit so then they could later open thier own business and the Centre decided on travel agency. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Sarah 103

[misstwpherecool]

It's seems like P & E used an/one apprentice on missions now, the last year we see a team. All hands on deck for the negotiations?

[SusanSunflower]

Wikipedia (not infallable) sez: 

"" (Elizabeth) She trained to become an undercover agent until the age of 22. During this time, she was raped by one of her captains in the KGB, Timoshev. In 1962, Elizabeth and fellow KGB agent "Phillip Jennings" (Mischa) were assigned to each other to pose as husband and wife in America. In 1965 they move to America under false identities and take up work in a travel agency. Elizabeth meets and recruits civil rights activist Gregory to the KGB and has an ongoing affair with him. She gives birth to her and Phillip's first child, Paige, in 1967, and their second child, Henry, in 1970."" 

The establishment of the travel agency may have preceded their arrival 

Edited April 19, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[RedHawk]

6 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I agree that the travel agency is a totally legitmate business and was designed to be one/appear like it from day one. Do we know how long they've lived in DC? Maybe the travel agency wasn't thier original cover. They could have worked at other jobs first to earn money/build up credit so then they could later open thier own business and the Centre decided on travel agency. 

That's how I've always imagined it. I think they came to the U.S. and settled in DC (nowhere else) in the autumn of 1964. I suppose at times the Centre could have gotten some cash to them, but it was part of their job to build completely legit lives. 

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

That's never stopped me from leaving my crap up? j/k

Back on topic, I just think they need to lay off having Elizabeth killing people each week.  It is getting old, and no matter how many more people she kills, it isn't going to make me hate her anymore than I already do.

The same thing could be said about Paige and her being both naive and incompetent at the same time.  She could pull a rabbit out of her ass, and I am still not going to think much of her.  There is no way that she can live in her mother's and Claudia's little bubble of a world.  It just doesn't seem logical that she could isolate herself into a USSR world.  A world she has never grown up in.

Nah, at this point, I really want to the writers go for it, with the homicidal habits of Liz. They should have the defector couple meet Stan at a Redskins game, and Liz decides to take opportunity, and ends up annihilating the entire upper deck of RFK stadium, employing a different method for each victim. Paige waits outside the stadium in a car, looking worried. Liz gets back in the car, covered head to toe in gore, and says, "Gosh, fans of American football are really troubled, but I'm really proud of you, Paige. Seriously". Paige smiles.

[Kathemy]

14 hours ago, Dev F said:

I thought it was a dart gun, which would be suitable for both breaking lightbulbs and taking out the guards. It seemed to me like they were being tranquilized rather than just shot, since people don't reliably fall over quietly when you shoot them with a regular gun.

Do they do that with a tranquilizer gun?