S05.E15: Rise and Shine

[tessaray]

14 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Daisy is not a person who would be a strategic and dispassionate thinker. Which I think they really need ( and are totally not going to get because of TV reasons). But the biggest stumbling block has to be that Daisy and YoYo currently make up 100% of SHIELD's powered fighters. They can't afford to keep her out of the field and in the office calling shots instead. 

Coulson was pretty emphatic that the next director should be young - I guess to be there for many decades to come. 

Am I the only person who thinks that he might end up choosing Fitz?  He's proved he can make the hard decisions.  As stomach churning as that is to type, I can see the writers going that way.  It's like Star Trek's "The Enemy Within", Fitz embraces his inner Evil Genius and melds with his wimpy, good guy persona.  And because what else can they do with him now?  

[TVSpectator]

6 minutes ago, tessaray said:

Coulson was pretty emphatic that the next director should be young - I guess to be there for many decades to come. 

Am I the only person who thinks that he might end up choosing Fitz?  He's proved he can make the hard decisions.  As stomach churning as that is to type, I can see the writers going that way.  It's like Star Trek, Fitz embraces his inner Evil Genius and melds with his naive, good guy persona.  And because what else can they do with him now?  

1

Turn him into a villain and becomes the next Ward (okay this probably isn't going to happen but that would be the most logical choice)? Seriously though, how does one go from snapping into an evil Hydra doctor that tortures his supposed friend, held his "wife" and his future grandson hostage- at gunpoint with robot bodyguards, hid LMDs from his SHIELD bosses (and his, then live-in girlfriend), etc... into a possible SHIELD director candidate?

Edited April 4, 2018 by TVSpectator

[CaptainTightpants]

I'm pretty sure Daisy would just straight up quit if Fitz was put in charge. And then spend her days cyber attacking them from a van. 

[TVSpectator]

Just now, CaptainTightpants said:

I'm pretty sure Daisy would just straight up quit if Fitz was put in charge. And then spend her days cyber attacking them from a van. 

They already had Daisy go "rogue" in Season 4 because Lincoln died (and they never said it was because of anything else) though.

[CaptainTightpants]

22 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I agree that Daisy is not the best choice of being the next director of SHIELD (my choice would be May. She is a season SHIELD veteran and she can make many better-calculated choices than Coulson, Simmons, and Daisy combined. Hell, even Mack would make a better director than Coulson, Simmons, and Daisy, IMO) but I have a feeling that the show wants us to believe that Daisy should be the next director (actually I think that the show should resurrect Mace and make him the acting director and demote Simmons to lab underling with no security clearance and just lock up Fitz, IMO). Sort of like how the show wanted us to assume that Coulson should be the director over someone like Mace.  Even though a person like Mace was probably a better choice for SHIELD, at the time, since they really did have an image problem. Not only that but Mace (whether it was earned or not) was actually liked by the public. 

 

Jason O'Mara was criminally underused! And I still maintain that it was shitty and unprofessional of the team to undermine him, even if his colour coded empire was irritating. 

If the show could manage to bring Mace back in some capacity I would dance a bloody jig!

And I seem to remember that May specifically stated somewhere along the line that she didn't want to be Director ever?

Edited April 4, 2018 by CaptainTightpants

[Froippi]

be interesting to see Coulson view point in all of this when he comes back but that we might not see him with the team tell episode 18 though so its going to be a while

[kitlee625]

7 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Sort of like how the show wanted us to assume that Coulson should be the director over someone like Mace.  Even though a person like Mace was probably a better choice for SHIELD, at the time, since they really did have an image problem. Not only that but Mace (whether it was earned or not) was actually liked by the public. 

 

7 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Daisy is not a person who would be a strategic and dispassionate thinker. Which I think they really need ( and are totally not going to get because of TV reasons). But the biggest stumbling block has to be that Daisy and YoYo currently make up 100% of SHIELD's powered fighters. They can't afford to keep her out of the field and in the office calling shots instead. 

I agree with this, but I would also argue that Coulson is not a strategic and dispassionate thinker. He has his moments, but he also has huge weaknesses and blindspots. His plans often go awry, and he's managed to let almost every member of the team plot against him or have a secret agenda. The show really relies on the assumption that Coulson is the best Director / SHIELD agent possible without really showing us why that's the case. So I can see why Coulson would set up Daisy to be his successor - she's his surrogate daughter, and she has a lot of the same good/bad qualities as him. But that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

[CaptainTightpants]

2 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

I agree with this, but I would also argue that Coulson is not a strategic and dispassionate thinker. He has his moments, but he also has huge weaknesses and blindspots. His plans often go awry, and he's managed to let almost every member of the team plot against him or have a secret agenda. The show really relies on the assumption that Coulson is the best Director / SHIELD agent possible without really showing us why that's the case. So I can see why Coulson would set up Daisy to be his successor - she's his surrogate daughter, and she has a lot of the same good/bad qualities as him. But that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

Coulson has actually been a terrible Director from the agency point of view. But such is the appeal and charisma of Clark Gregg that I would go down with the ship with him. 

But as much as I like Daisy and I think CB does a great job with the character, she does not have the same pull. There is only one Clark Gregg and if he going to be replaced they are going to have to go in a different direction because anyone else will pale in comparison. 

[Sandman]

10 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

And then spend her days cyber attacking them from a van. 

::sings:: "The circle of life!"

Even if the "kill your pet to prove your commitment to the cause" thing has a real-world precedent, there's something counter-intuitive about it to me. I mean, nothing says unit cohesion and respect for hierarchy like incipient sociopathy! (Sorry, I'm still stuck on the animal killing. And the basic stupidity implied by the Bunker Hill Academy ((tm) paigow) for the Gifted and Insane.)

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, Sandman said:

::sings:: "The circle of life!"

Even if the "kill your pet to prove your commitment to the cause" thing has a real-world precedent, there's something counter-intuitive about it to me. I mean, nothing says unit cohesion and respect for hierarchy like incipient sociopathy! (Sorry, I'm still stuck on the animal killing. And the basic stupidity implied by the Bunker Hill Academy ((tm) paigow) for the Gifted and Insane.)

But they are evil....

[Sandman]

I've come to accept that there's a certain co-morbidity between evil and stupidity.

[shrewd.buddha]

7 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

...Coulson is not a strategic and dispassionate thinker. He has his moments, but he also has huge weaknesses and blindspots. His plans often go awry, and he's managed to let almost every member of the team plot against him or have a secret agenda. 

Coulson never worked well (show-wise) as a Director. He was best as 'Agent' Coulson.  As Director, he had to acknowledge the vastness of SHIELD (never happened) and pretend to care about any of his subordinates that were not named Daisy (or May, or Simmons).  At one point Coulson realized that every one of his agents had been a spy or lying to him (Skye -the hacker, Ward - Hydra, Mack - undercover, May - was his secret handler after Tahiti. )
Remember  that time Daisy was dying and Coulson flat out murdered some guards to get into a mountain fortress to get some Kree blood (or some such research). But for all the other agent deaths, some significant, some red-shirts, he just throws out quips. 
But the writers of AoS never wanted to deal with SHIELD - - they only ever wanted a ragtag, renegade group of about seven to eight people. 

Regarding the kill-your-dog-to-graduate rule : how does that work as a surprise to every graduating class? Wouldn't some undergraduate, at some point, ask "Dude, what happened to Fido?"

Edited April 4, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[Sandman]

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Wouldn't some undergraduate, at some point, ask "Dude, what happened to Fido?"

First Rule of Fido Club: Don't talk about Fido Club?

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Remember  that time Daisy was dying and Coulson flat out murdered some guards to get into a mountain fortress to get some Kree blood (or some such research).

I'm busily handwaving that they were Hydra, with the mouse pad and everything. Busily.

[mac123x]

On 3/31/2018 at 1:34 PM, mascan42 said:

Is anybody else concerned that the show seems to have been reduced to reusing the same three sets over and over again? Those corridors have been redressed about a dozen times, to little effect - it all looks the same.

This episode screamed "second unit episode".  Standing sets, mostly guest stars.  You shoot it when the guest stars are there for other episodes but aren't involved in that day's shooting.  Definitely a money saver.

[Raja]

40 minutes ago, Sandman said:

First Rule of Fido Club: Don't talk about Fido Club?

I'm busily handwaving that they were Hydra, with the mouse pad and everything. Busily.

That was before The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn Hydra emergence. Which brings us back to my observation that S.H.I.E.L.D, which had Skye cross off a man as part of her training , and Hydra really were not separated by much 

[CaptainTightpants]

53 minutes ago, Raja said:

That was before The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn Hydra emergence. Which brings us back to my observation that S.H.I.E.L.D, which had Skye cross off a man as part of her training , and Hydra really were not separated by much 

They are still separated by dog murder. I am about 400% more ok with people getting killed than animals. 

So I'm still comfortable calling Hydra the bad guys here. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by CaptainTightpants

[Kel Varnsen]

Speaking of HYDRA being evil, I found it kind of weird that they basically told Hale she could never really be Hydra leadership because she was a woman and needed to carry a baby. But at the same time they were ok with her giving birth to a daughter, and that daughter would be the next great Hydra leader.

[kitlee625]

13 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Speaking of HYDRA being evil, I found it kind of weird that they basically told Hale she could never really be Hydra leadership because she was a woman and needed to carry a baby. But at the same time they were ok with her giving birth to a daughter, and that daughter would be the next great Hydra leader.

I was surprised about that too. Presumably Whitehall engineered everything about Ruby and so chose to make her a woman. Unless he did it so that Ruby could bear her own child to be the next Hydra leader, and on and on.

Edited April 4, 2018 by kitlee625

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

That was before The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn Hydra emergence. Which brings us back to my observation that S.H.I.E.L.D, which had Skye cross off a man as part of her training , and Hydra really were not separated by much 

I think the point in WS was that SHIELD lost its way, from the time of Peggy Carter, and it was so corrupted it had to be destroyed (in the movies but the show is just there). Even if you took every secret Hydra member in the organization, and removed them, present day SHIELD was basically a few shades  apart from Hydra in its heyday.

Edited April 4, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Lobsel Vith]

5 hours ago, Raja said:

That was before The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn Hydra emergence. Which brings us back to my observation that S.H.I.E.L.D, which had Skye cross off a man as part of her training , and Hydra really were not separated by much 

Killing a man because he's a threat (I'm assuming you're talking about Donald Gill, the mind-controlled student from the academy who gained ice powers) and plotting an act to murder a plethora of innocent people (which is what Hydra was aiming for during TWS and the later part of season one of AoS, and we know they were murdering students at the academy during their takeover of S.H.I.E.L.D.) makes S.H.I.E.L.D. and Hydra very different.

4 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I think the point in WS was that SHIELD lost its way, from the time of Peggy Carter, and it was so corrupted it had to be destroyed (in the movies but the show is just there). Even if you took every secret Hydra member in the organization, and removed them, present day SHIELD was basically a few shades  apart from Hydra in its heyday.

The corruption seemed to start from the beginning if we take the information from TWS at face value (that Hydra was infiltrating S.H.I.E.L.D. from the very beginning). Honestly, given that Coulson had no known funding and the organization was now smaller and underground, I don't know why the show never reflected that. They just seemed to have a budget from somewhere and it was never really addressed that they were truly struggling to survive with limited resources, tech, and manpower (I guess you could theorize that the Toolbox was part of it, but it's never actually stated). Mace kind of makes a comment about that in season 4 (since even he admits to not knowing how they pulled that off), but it's still a mystery.

[Sandman]

21 hours ago, Raja said:

That was before The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn Hydra emergence.

The events of The Winter Soldier and "Turn, Turn, Turn," revealed the presence of Hydra within S.H.I.E.L.D., though; chronologically they aren't the point of activation. Hydra agents have presumably been embedded in SHIELD from before the series began. The guards at the location where the TAHITI program was buried might well have been part of some inner circle/closer to the core of the problem.

20 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

But at the same time they were ok with her giving birth to a daughter, and that daughter would be the next great Hydra leader.

Whitehall tells young Hale "the future of Hydra" rests with her. Does he actually say the child will become the leader of Hydra? I don't remember that he used that term: I was thinking more along the lines of Hydra's next great weapon.

[LilJen]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 1:34 AM, VCRTracking said:

"crossfit Tinkerbell"

I thought it was Crossfit Barbie, from Coulson. Regardless, the line was super apt. She looks so plastic.

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, LilJen said:

I thought it was Crossfit Barbie, from Coulson. Regardless, the line was super apt. She looks so plastic.

It was "Crossfit Tinkerbell" and the fact that Talbot said it made it even funnier!

Edited April 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[teenj12]

On 4/4/2018 at 3:14 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

But the writers of AoS never wanted to deal with SHIELD - - they only ever wanted a ragtag, renegade group of about seven to eight people. 

I actually agree with this. I remember thinking to myself that over the years, this show kinda went from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D to Agents from S.H.I.E.L.D, if that makes any sense. 

[In2You]

Its been awhile since I watched this show but I caught and episode the other day and are people enjoying Ruby? Cuz Dove Cameron's acting was terrible.

[Froippi]

8 minutes ago, In2You said:

Its been awhile since I watched this show but I caught and episode the other day and are people enjoying Ruby? Cuz Dove Cameron's acting was terrible.

Not really rather they had the Aliens come over her but the backstory about Hale and why she had Ruby was interesting 

 

Kasius and Sinara were far better Villains in my opinion 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Froippi

[Lobsel Vith]

5 minutes ago, In2You said:

Its been awhile since I watched this show but I caught and episode the other day and are people enjoying Ruby? Cuz Dove Cameron's acting was terrible.

I'm not terribly interested in her character, and I don't find her or her mother to be compelling.

[kitlee625]

7 hours ago, Froippi said:

Not really rather they had the Aliens come over her but the backstory about Hale and why she had Ruby was interesting 

 

Kasius and Sinara were far better Villains in my opinion 

I'm enjoying the season too, not so much because of Ruby and Hale but because of the mysteries surrounding them. Kasius and Sinara were less mysterious but more straight up creepy and scary.

[Chaos Theory]

7 minutes ago, kitlee625 said:

I'm enjoying the season too, not so much because of Ruby and Hale but because of the mysteries surrounding them. Kasius and Sinara were less mysterious but more straight up creepy and scary.

I really thought the “Destoyer Of Worlds” reveal was kinda clever.  Plus I do like that the show didn’t go back to “good guy” Fitz.  

[Sandman]

1 hour ago, kitlee625 said:

Kasius and Sinara were less mysterious but more straight up creepy and scary.

And also over-the-top and boring. I got so sick of both of them.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 4/5/2018 at 3:14 PM, Sandman said:

Whitehall tells young Hale "the future of Hydra" rests with her. Does he actually say the child will become the leader of Hydra? I don't remember that he used that term: I was thinking more along the lines of Hydra's next great weapon.

I can't remember exactly how they worded it, it just seemed funny that Hyrda is super evil, and obviously prefer men in leadership roles what with how much they brushed off young Hale's achievements, but at the same time they are progressive enough where they are ok with the future perfect Hydra person or whatever being a woman.

[TVSpectator]

13 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I can't remember exactly how they worded it, it just seemed funny that Hyrda is super evil, and obviously prefer men in leadership roles what with how much they brushed off young Hale's achievements, but at the same time they are progressive enough where they are ok with the future perfect Hydra person or whatever being a woman.

And also that Whitehall also thought once that Simmons (while being undercover at Hydra Labs, Inc.) was good enough to sit in on board meetings with the rest of Hydra Labs leaders (and weren't some also women?). Again, they are just throwing every evil group trope in Hydra's direction and not really bothering how it all makes sense, IMO. Or it could so be a lead up to Captain Marvel? Sort of like, hey we all know that Hydra is evil but they are also sexist (and we are sending this message just in time, just before Captain Marvel comes to the MCU and I am sure that they will have a similar trope of, "woman forging her way in a man's world" as well...)?

18 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I'm not terribly interested in her character, and I don't find her or her mother to be compelling.

Yeah, I agree that they are weak villains. 

19 hours ago, teenj12 said:

I actually agree with this. I remember thinking to myself that over the years, this show kinda went from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D to Agents from S.H.I.E.L.D, if that makes any sense. 

Then it went from Agents from S.H.I.E.L.D. to As S.H.I.E.L.D. turns with the number of ships that they wrote for the show. 

On 4/4/2018 at 11:26 PM, Lobsel Vith said:

The corruption seemed to start from the beginning if we take the information from TWS at face value (that Hydra was infiltrating S.H.I.E.L.D. from the very beginning). Honestly, given that Coulson had no known funding and the organization was now smaller and underground, I don't know why the show never reflected that. They just seemed to have a budget from somewhere and it was never really addressed that they were truly struggling to survive with limited resources, tech, and manpower (I guess you could theorize that the Toolbox was part of it, but it's never actually stated). Mace kind of makes a comment about that in season 4 (since even he admits to not knowing how they pulled that off), but it's still a mystery.

 

Well, yes, there were Hydra agents that became SHIELD agents from the start but I doubt that  PeggyCarter and Howard Stark were like, "hey, let's greenlight a project that will take away people's 4th Amendment Rights and Due Process away?" Overall, in the first half of WS, Fury was all gung-ho about Project Insight- not only that but thought that it was necessary since Earth was invaded from Aliens and Tony Stark was able to build himself an Iron Man suit in a cave, Thor came to Earth, Hulk was created by Banner, and Captain America was unfrozen, etc... It was kind of a part to show how that SHIELD lost its way and that was why it couldn't be saved from within. It had to die because it was corrupted and also let's not forget that this show has also kind of showing us that SHIELD (even the very same SHIELD members) would do things almost similar (but a few shades away) as Hydra. 

On 4/4/2018 at 12:02 AM, CaptainTightpants said:

Jason O'Mara was criminally underused! And I still maintain that it was shitty and unprofessional of the team to undermine him, even if his colour coded empire was irritating. 

If the show could manage to bring Mace back in some capacity I would dance a bloody jig!

And I seem to remember that May specifically stated somewhere along the line that she didn't want to be Director ever?

Okay, was that all that Mace did to them (and no I am not counting hiding his secret. Literally, everyone on this show has a secret) and to SHIELD? Because I honestly can't wrap my mind around everyone was being such pricks to him in that Season. Even when his secret was revealed they were still kind of assholes to him and it never really let up? Why did they hate him so much? Also, why was Nathanson hated by Simmons as well? I feel like I missed something on to that "why" part?

On 4/4/2018 at 3:14 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

Coulson never worked well (show-wise) as a Director. He was best as 'Agent' Coulson.  As Director, he had to acknowledge the vastness of SHIELD (never happened) and pretend to care about any of his subordinates that were not named Daisy (or May, or Simmons).  At one point Coulson realized that every one of his agents had been a spy or lying to him (Skye -the hacker, Ward - Hydra, Mack - undercover, May - was his secret handler after Tahiti. )
Remember  that time Daisy was dying and Coulson flat out murdered some guards to get into a mountain fortress to get some Kree blood (or some such research). But for all the other agent deaths, some significant, some red-shirts, he just throws out quips. 
But the writers of AoS never wanted to deal with SHIELD - - they only ever wanted a ragtag, renegade group of about seven to eight people. 

Regarding the kill-your-dog-to-graduate rule : how does that work as a surprise to every graduating class? Wouldn't some undergraduate, at some point, ask "Dude, what happened to Fido?"

Yeah, I agree. Coulson never worked well as director. His methods were sloppy, (remember the time he wanted to blow up that underground Inhuman city? It was right under San Juan and he was literally going to blow it up and cause a possible cave-in but didn't give two fucks about it), got lots of his agents killed (Lincoln seems to be the only name SHIELD agent that I can remember dying under him as director. But there was a ton of red shirts and also Victoria Hand), somehow allowed Hive to come back to Earth-and he didn't know he was back on Earth until like a week to a month afterwards, threw Bobbi and Hunter under the bus because he was afriad that SHIELD would find out to be around (even though within a few months it did come back to the public light), doesn't care about anyone finding out he is alive, just had a package devlieved right in the middle of his hanger and didn't check it for explosive chemicals etc...., decided to keep Hive in that ACTU gloop right in the middle of the hanger, etc....

As with the guards from that mountain fortress- those two guys were to me actual SHIELD agents since not even Garrett knew about the existance of it and it was supposed to be another, "off the books" Fury things (and that was why Garrett/Hydra didn't know how Coulson came back to life).

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I can't remember exactly how they worded it, it just seemed funny that Hyrda is super evil, and obviously prefer men in leadership roles what with how much they brushed off young Hale's achievements, but at the same time they are progressive enough where they are ok with the future perfect Hydra person or whatever being a woman.

I  think that Hydra was changing at the same rate as the real world. Dr. Whitehall was actually a WWII soldier made supernaturally young, and as we will probably see in Captain Marvel a young Hale was entering the USAF just as women would be allowed to be pilots of combat aircraft.

[Sandman]

On 4/6/2018 at 7:25 PM, TVSpectator said:

Again, they are just throwing every evil group trope in Hydra's direction and not really bothering how it all makes sense, IMO.

"This is Hydra! We are experts in disinformation, mind control, assassination, und torture! In our spare time, we also like to jaywalk!!"

Edited April 9, 2018 by Sandman

[CooperTV]

On 02.04.2018 at 8:22 PM, kitlee625 said:

Mack also was shot in the leg by one of Fitz's robots, so I was a little surprised to see him supporting Fitz.

Mack (and Bobbi) was also working with the Other SHIELD during season 2 to try and remove Coulson as the director, for the greater good, of course. I don't think Mack, as much as I adore the man, has any leg to stand on in this particular argument.

[Lobsel Vith]

1 hour ago, CooperTV said:

Mack (and Bobbi) was also working with the Other SHIELD during season 2 to try and remove Coulson as the director, for the greater good, of course. I don't think Mack, as much as I adore the man, has any leg to stand on in this particular argument.

That's not even remotely the same thing. Mack thought Coulson shouldn't be the leader of the organization, he had some legitimate issues about the decisions being made, but he also put himself in harm's way to protect Fitz. Fitz, in contrast, built robots that endangered everyone and tortured a woman. Those aren't the same thing. I admit the whole Real S.H.I.E.L.D. arc wasn't very well written, and there are a number of problems with it overall, but Mack should be allowed to be angry at Fitz (especially given the whole Framework debacle and losing Hope for a second time, which clearly bothered him when you look at him in the finale during the Fitz scenes). That everyone pretty much already handwaved Fitz's actions at this point (except for Daisy) is a bit much, even for this show.

[CooperTV]

48 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

That's not even remotely the same thing. Mack thought Coulson shouldn't be the leader of the organization, he had some legitimate issues about the decisions being made, but he also put himself in harm's way to protect Fitz.

At this point? That's exactly the same thing. Mack and Bobbi betrayed their friends (and Bobbi betraying her husband)... because they thought their way was better? Daisy attacking May and leaving the team to be with her biological mother? Hand-waved and forgotten. Coulson putting everyone in danger multiple times because his precious adopted daughter got hurt/got kidnapped? Noone notices. Elena setting that guy in the future up to protect the team? There was a bit of a reprimand from Mack, that's it. If Fitz'a actions (caused by PTSD, brain injury and his long time coming psychotic break) would be punished by the narrative in any way (they still might), I call BS and the drama for the sake of drama.

[Lobsel Vith]

11 hours ago, CooperTV said:

At this point? That's exactly the same thing. Mack and Bobbi betrayed their friends (and Bobbi betraying her husband)... because they thought their way was better?

Which is nothing like building robots that could murder your teammates (let's not forget that Mack was injured protecting Yo-yo from one such robot) or torturing an alien device out of a woman who is begging you to stop. None of your examples are remotely similar to what Fitz did.

11 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Daisy attacking May and leaving the team to be with her biological mother? Hand-waved and forgotten.

Daisy thinking that Gonzales attempted to murder her mother - in the same year his team attempted to murder her - isn't the same thing, either. For obvious reasons. I'm hoping I don't need to spell out why.

11 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Coulson putting everyone in danger multiple times because his precious adopted daughter got hurt/got kidnapped? Noone notices.

In contrast to what, exactly? To Fitz endangering Daisy's life by recklessly jumping into the portal of the monolith on the slim chance that he could find Simmons before Daisy died trying to keep the portal open? Or when Fitz opened the portal for Hydra and endangered the entire world because he didn't want to see Simmons suffer at the hands of Ward and the rest of Hydra, which lead to Hive coming to Earth? Or Fitz working with Radcliffe on an illegal project, which ultimately lead to Coulson now dying?

11 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Elena setting that guy in the future up to protect the team? There was a bit of a reprimand from Mack, that's it.

All of your examples are absolutely terrible. Do I really need to address why trying to compare Elena saving the lives of Tess, Mack, and Coulson isn't the same as Fitz torturing a woman? This isn't reddit - I expect more when I come here to discuss the show with people.

11 hours ago, CooperTV said:

If Fitz'a actions (caused by PTSD, brain injury and his long time coming psychotic break) would be punished by the narrative in any way (they still might), I call BS and the drama for the sake of drama.

Yeah, and some of us call B.S. on the notion that a man willfully torturing a woman should be handwaved, especially in the same season where some fans are handwaving slavery or romanticizing the selling of a person into slavery for money. Enough is enough at this point.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Lobsel Vith

[TVSpectator]

12 hours ago, CooperTV said:

At this point? That's exactly the same thing. Mack and Bobbi betrayed their friends (and Bobbi betraying her husband)... because they thought their way was better? Daisy attacking May and leaving the team to be with her biological mother? Hand-waved and forgotten. Coulson putting everyone in danger multiple times because his precious adopted daughter got hurt/got kidnapped? Noone notices. Elena setting that guy in the future up to protect the team? There was a bit of a reprimand from Mack, that's it. If Fitz'a actions (caused by PTSD, brain injury and his long time coming psychotic break) would be punished by the narrative in any way (they still might), I call BS and the drama for the sake of drama.

No, it's not the same thing. Mack and Bobbi were on an undercover mission while Fitz just went rogue and threaten the team and tortured Dasiy.  If they showed that maybe Fitz talked Daisy into doing the "operation" then maybe it could've been better but Fitz didn't. Instead, we got gun-wielding robot guards holding the entire team (with his grandson and wife being threatened) and then just tortured Dasiy. 

 

This is it, folks. These are bad examples of trying to justify Fitz's behavior and also Deke's behavior. What they did was something that most shows would admit WAS bad and try to work from that point on, but here they are not doing it. Instead, there has been almost every excuse in the book given for both Deke's and Fitz's actions and neither of them has been really great characters as well (and in Fitz's case his actions last season was also terrible). 

On 4/9/2018 at 9:49 AM, Sandman said:

"This is Hydra! We are experts in disinformation, mind control, assassination, und torture! In our spare time, we also like to jaywalk!!"

And killing dogs.....

[Cranberry]

There's a new Deke Shaw thread for any discussion of his past actions. If your comments about Deke aren't about his actions in this episode specifically, take 'em there.

[bethy]

I'm very late to the party here, but the Fitz/Simmons scene at the end was so wonderful:

Fitz: But he's the worst!

Simmons: I think he's perfect.

For some reason, I was really touched by Simmons's reaction to Deke in light of him being her grandson. Thinking he's "perfect" is such a grandmotherly thing to believe. And the contrast to Fitz's grumpy-grandpa comment made it even better. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

I honestly skipped some of Hale's flashbacks because I couldn't care less about her past. How come we have seen zero Fitz or Simmons or Mack flashbacks (except for the day of Hydra's coup) but we have seen long flashbacks of Ward, Whitehall, Malick and now Hale? I don't care about the details of the past of these people, I don't care about Hydra's past. I barely care about Hydra in the present because it's such a plot device of an organization. It doesn't help that the actress who plays Ruby has a permanent smirk on her face and I just can't take Ruby seriously as a threat. Also, Hale chases SHIELD ruthlessly for quite some time and then she is all "Let's work together". What exactly did she expect to happen?

I know I said in the previous episode thread that the team was going to start trusting Fitz again but I didn't expect it to happen so soon. I have no idea how Mack reached the conclusion "It's that he was still a good guy in there [the Framework]". The only way Fitz could have been more evil would have been to literally change his name to Dr. Mengele and start twirling his mustache. Did he mean something else that I am missing because that line really puzzled me?

I am not a big fan of Daisy but I wanted to slap Fitz when he said he had no choice but to perform the surgery because she wouldn't have agreed. Dude, you never even asked her in the first place!

Yo-yo and Simmons are being really stupid with their "invincibility" belief. Freaking Deke seems to be more rational about it, he was all concerned that his grandparents not take needless risks after he learned the truth. And Simmons is way too calm for someone whose husband just betrayed her horribly. She should have been pissed just as much as Daisy - no, she wasn't tortured physically but it was still a huge betrayal and just as importantly, Fitz is showing no remorse whatsoever.

I really don't understand why Daisy is in charge when Coulson isn't there. They really aren't utilizing May much this season, why not put her in charge? Speaking of May, I remember her being pretty pissed at Bobbi and Mack in season 2 (even though those two had a pretty good reason not to trust Coulson's leadership and were nowhere near as close to her as Fitz is) and now she is all "Well, I was evil in the Framework too, no big deal". Why is nobody asking the question how she has so easily put this behind her while Fitz hasn't? Clearly, spending time in the Framework roleplaying as Hitler Madam Hydra minion doesn't automatically make you evil in the real world but the show seems to believe that this is some sort of valid excuse for Fitz for some reason.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Jack Shaftoe

[Raja]

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I honestly skipped some of Hale's flashbacks because I couldn't care less about her past. How come we have seen zero Fitz or Simmons or Mack flashbacks (except for the day of Hydra's coup) but we have seen long flashbacks of Ward, Whitehall, Malick and now Hale? I don't care about the details of the past of these people, I don't care about Hydra's past. I barely care about Hydra in the present because it's such a plot device of an organization. It doesn't help that the actress who plays Ruby has a permanent smirk on her face and I just can't take Ruby seriously as a threat. Also, Hale chases SHIELD ruthlessly for quite some time and then she is all "Let's work together". What exactly did she expect to happen?

 

With general Hale it was because she was an unknown but also to show Hydra Prep in the days before Captain America The Winter Soldier. Ward, Whitehall and Malick were part of the show's goodbye tour as all indications point to their being cancelled before ABC's give us more order came.

 

If you stick through season 6 I am of the opinion that about halfway through they got word for season 7 so the second half fell apart as they tried to strecth their story to put in 7 what was original planned for a more compact and precise season 6