S06.E03: Urban Transport Planning

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

Even casting someone less stocky, as someone suggested earlier, might be tricky. Would Liz hanging off the back of some little shrimpy guy still read as a romantic embrace with her in the feminine role? The whole point was to show her, essentially, strangling her own marriage, killing Evan because she's given up on the idea that you can trust a loving couple to keep their secrets between them. (As Philip proves her right by going off to share what she told him with Oleg.)

In Evan's case, the issue wasn't that he wouldn't keep a secret between him and his girlfriend. It was that Evan would naturally tell his girlfriend about the meeting. He saw no reason not to, and told her as much. They would have no reason to keep it to themselves once the girlfriend told him the whole thing was a set up. 

So there is some connection to Elizabeth, since she had finally said something to Philip about what was going on and he was now sharing it with Oleg. As long as she's got Philip around she's going to want to tell him things, so strangling one or the other of them is the only way to stop that. 

But Philip's first instinct, it certainly seemed, was to be honest with her. In the premiere when she came home I believe when she cut him off he was saying that her telling him to quit was good advice and then he said, "And I was thinking..." So it seems Philip was hoping to just get them both out, hoping that they could both tell each other what they knew and what they were being told to do and work together to find a way. But Elizabeth is currently more committed to the Cold War than the marriage.

Which in itself comes right back to Evan and the girlfriend. She had to kill him because if she let him live and he spoke to his girlfriend all the lies and schemes would be stopped cold. She doesn't want that to happen, either with Evan or with herself.  So rather than the two of them teaming up to work out what to do together about their two opposing missions (which they both believe in, and that makes it more difficult) they will work independently of each other.

[jjj]

It is interesting that Paige went back to her parents' home after the incident in the park.  I assume the main reason was to make sure Elizabeth was all right, and that Paige is not privy to the secret warehouse of Wigs'R'Us.  But she must have told Philip *something* about what freaked her out, and even Elizabeth seemed to assume that Philip knew something from Paige, the way Elizabeth was talking about whether it was murder versus suicide. 

Which raises the question of how much Philip can use Paige to find out more about this current mission of surveillance and its goals.  We have never seen Elizabeth tell Paige, "you cannot discuss any of this with your father," and I think they would have shown us that if we were supposed to think there is an information wall set up. 

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, jjj said:

It is interesting that Paige went back to her parents' home after the incident in the park.  I assume the main reason was to make sure Elizabeth was all right, and that Paige is not privy to the secret warehouse of Wigs'R'Us.  But she must have told Philip *something* about what freaked her out, and even Elizabeth seemed to assume that Philip knew something from Paige, the way Elizabeth was talking about whether it was murder versus suicide. 

 

She told him the whole story, it seemed to me. In fact, that could just as easily be the reason she went home. Not to make sure Elizabeth was okay--she would have spoken to Elizabeth after the incident and Elizabeth probably told her to go home. When Elizabeth walked in Paige seemed more interested in asking what the hell happened than whether Elizabeth was okay. Elizabeth herself might have even preferred her to go to her own apartment for any debriefing, but Paige obviously wanted the comfort of home and got it with Philip. 

38 minutes ago, jjj said:

Which raises the question of how much Philip can use Paige to find out more about this current mission of surveillance and its goals.  We have never seen Elizabeth tell Paige, "you cannot discuss any of this with your father," and I think they would have shown us that if we were supposed to think there is an information wall set up. 

This episode I think obviously showed us that Paige will tell Philip whatever she wants (no surprise). Paige isn't privvy to Elizabeth's secret mission, if she's privvy to any of them. We know that Claudia regularly sends her out of the room before giving Elizabeth assignments. But as we saw here, that doesn't mean Paige can't tell Philip what she does know. In this case Philip says Paige thinks the guy killed himself and said he was "an army guy." So Paige gave Philip the key to opening up the whole conversation even without knowing or caring much about the details. We didn't see the conversation where she narrated the events of the evening, but it would make sense for Paige to just say Elizabeth was meeting with a guy who killed himself (since Paige doesn't care about the other stuff) and Philip asked who the guy was under the guise of being supportive and offering reasons he might have killed himself or whatever. And Elizabeth didn't yell at Paige for telling Philip what happened and that it was "an army guy" so either she's okay with her protege telling Philip stuff because she doesn't think she knows anything classified or else she's just letting Paige get away with stuff other people couldn't again.

Edited April 14, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Good point!

Also, that makes Paige possibly a key figure in this war between Philip/Oleg/Gorbachev/reformers and Elizabeth/KGB/hard liners.

[jjj]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 either she's okay with her protege telling Philip stuff because she doesn't think she knows anything classified or else she's just letting Paige get away with stuff other people couldn't again.

Well, Philip knows, deep, deep secrets and missions, so it may be that Elizabeth feels  if some current stuff drips over to him, it is not a big deal (except for Project Cyanide).  So she probably does not mind if Paige talks to him, so he will probably not find it hard to learn all that Paige knows, and then try to plug that into the bits that Elizabeth tells him.  She does not know much, but anything is a start. 

As others here have said over the past few weeks, in real life, no way would the KGB just let him wander off the spy ranch and live.  He would either be spirited off to the motherland or killed.  And we are about to see the reason their decision to let him stay was fatally flawed, from the KGB perspective. 

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

In Evan's case, the issue wasn't that he wouldn't keep a secret between him and his girlfriend. It was that Evan would naturally tell his girlfriend about the meeting. He saw no reason not to, and told her as much. They would have no reason to keep it to themselves once the girlfriend told him the whole thing was a set up.

Oh, sure, it's not as straightforward a connection as I may have accidentally implied. Evan is not Philip in this scenario -- he's the part of Elizabeth herself who would've blindly trusted her significant other and told him everything, because what could possibly go wrong with that? And I probably shouldn't have suggested that it's causal, in the sense that Elizabeth has made this realization about her own relationship and it leads her to realize that Evan needs to die; on the literal level of the story, she's just making a pretty obvious and unavoidable tactical decision. It just happens to represent the state of characters' relationship, which is generally how the espionage plots on the show function.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Dev F

[kicksave]

Elizabeth is psycho.

[Cthulhudrew]

Elizabeth is getting really sloppy. Is she going to track down Theresa Vasquez and make sure she doesn't talk about her boyfriend and the mysterious audit? And hope she hasn't already told other coworkers?

I echo CaliCheeseSucks comments about the time jump upthread; I was pretty wary about it at the beginning of the season, and every subsequent episode only further shows the weaknesses of that dramatic storytelling choice.

The scene with Elizabeth and Phillip talking in the kitchen was pretty powerful, though (at least to me). I'm a product of western culture, and I find the unthinking wholesale exporting and adoption of it worldwide to be a horrific thing. I shudder to think just how homogeneously Stepford-like the world will be in a few centuries (if not sooner). I could feel Elizabeth's disgust and fear in that exchange. 

[Umbelina]

He didn't know why he was there, who she was, or even that there was going to be an audit, she explained all of that to him when they arrived.

I don't think Elizabeth is THAT tired, or sloppy!  Ha.

The girlfriend may just be in general security, but she may have friends to help investigate his murder.  We shall see....

[SunnyBeBe]

No, I didn't see E as sloppy when taking out that guy in the hotel.  To me, it seemed she made a rather an on the spot judgment call that he had to go down, since his girlfriend worked in security.  Too risky.  If he had not said that, it seems he would have walked out alive.  Maybe, I'm off on this, but, it seemed like she expected him to leave there alive, since, she kept reinforcing the secrecy of it. By admitting he had a girlfriend in security and pillow talk is common....can't risk it. 

The same goes for the navy officer.  A judgment call that she made based on her experience and training.  Maybe, harsh, but, effective so far.  I worried more about her being so lax with Tuan previously.  Is she overreacting?  Well, if I was being held against my will by some bad guys, in a secret hard to get to location, and I discovered that Elizabeth had been sent to rescue me.....I'd feel pretty good about it, because she's going to do whatever it takes to save me, REGARDLESS of the obstacles, she'll get it done.  That's just my take on it.  lol 

Edited April 16, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Maybe, I'm off on this, but, it seemed like she expected him to leave there alive, since, she kept reinforcing the secrecy of it. By admitting he had a girlfriend in security and pillow talk is common....can't risk it. 

Yes, the sloppiness isn't with Elizabeth in that moment, it's in the lead up. Usually they would have checked out the guy's love life before they sent Elizabeth to interview him personally. It was a big mistake that they didn't know this guy had a girlfriend in security. Had he not helpfully announced that Elizabeth would have let him walk out and he would have told his girlfriend who who would have revealed the scam.

32 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'd feel pretty good about it, because she's going to do whatever it takes to save me, REGARDLESS of the obstacles, she'll get it done. 

Only if you have value to her. She might just as likely shoot you to keep you quiet!

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, the sloppiness isn't with Elizabeth in that moment, it's in the lead up. Usually they would have checked out the guy's love life before they sent Elizabeth to interview him personally. It was a big mistake that they didn't know this guy had a girlfriend in security. Had he not helpfully announced that Elizabeth would have let him walk out and he would have told his girlfriend who who would have revealed the scam.

Only if you have value to her. She might just as likely shoot you to keep you quiet!

Oh, I see about the prep work.  Ok.  I suppose so.  Of course, if dating was against policy, maybe it was on the downlow.  

I do think that E would follow orders though.  But, she would take you down, if duty calls for it. lol 

[Token]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎11 at 9:04 PM, kikaha said:

The most interesting part of the episode for me was when Philip and Elizabeth talked about Perestroika.  They couldn't see things more differently.  That made me wonder, again, how the two of them can stay together.  Philip wants to pursue the American dream; Elizabeth wants to bury it. 

This is what always cracks me up with these kinds of situations... Elizabeth is so hell bent on destroying the way of life in a country that she actually lives in.  I can't imagine her back in Russia living under oppression and having very little in the way of material possessions or luxury goods.  That woman likes her luxurious possessions and there's no way she could live without them.  The whole idea is just ridiculous.

[Erin9]

One thing that occurred to me when Philip talked about Paige having Elizabeth to talk to, like he did is.....it just won’t be the same. E and P were partners, equals. Paige is a trainee and Elizabeth’s daughter. Can’t be and won’t be the same. Not that Elizabeth is always the greatest listener anyway. Sometimes she does well. 

Having thought about it, I wanted to give E credit for finally telling Paige she’s screwed something up. Not to mention her own mistakes. And I do. But- really- her initial execution was lousy. Yelling and berating someone isn’t an effective means of communication. They hear the yelling more than what was said. It was pretty bad. 

I’ve been critical about Paige the Spy. But if we must go there, there are some things that work for me. Elizabeth is screwing up the training a lot. She’s too close to Paige. Paige, so far, doesn’t look like a good fit. She’s making a lot of errors in a short period of time.

Lastly- motivation. I haven’t bought that Paige- last season Paige- was ready to make this a life long vocation. I’m still not. BUT- maybe that’s the point. Maybe that’s what she’ll come to realize. I buy an interest in communist ideals, bonding with her mom, attachment to causes- but this is something you have to be truly dedicated to for life. But perhaps she’ll realize she doesn’t possess that quality.....

[sistermagpie]

44 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

One thing that occurred to me when Philip talked about Paige having Elizabeth to talk to, like he did is.....it just won’t be the same. E and P were partners, equals. Paige is a trainee and Elizabeth’s daughter. Can’t be and won’t be the same. Not that Elizabeth is always the greatest listener anyway. Sometimes she does well. 

 

Along those same lines, Philip and Elizabeth's partnership was built on them being different. Philip came to the table with just as much of an opinion as she had and he was able to argue it both from the perspective of a long-embedded spy and as a Russian. And even there it obviously took years before she'd respect his opinion on a lot of things. She also probably respected him more first as a parent, seeming to always define herself as the one who was less of a natural on that. 

Plus, she was in love with him. There were times where she had to be vulnerable to him because she really craved him.

Like you said, with Paige it's completely the opposite. Elizabeth is the One Who Knows Everything in that relationship. She's the trainer. She's the one with experience. She's the Russian. Everything Paige knows or thinks about the Cause or Russia and even the US maybe is coming second hand from Elizabeth and Claudia. Paige is letting her lecture her on everything and is erasing anything she herself brings to the table since Americans don't really know what's going on, according to Elizabeth. Philip's ironically more likely to defend the US than Paige is.

47 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Having thought about it, I wanted to give E credit for finally telling Paige she’s screwed something up. Not to mention her own mistakes. And I do. But- really- her initial execution was lousy. Yelling and berating someone isn’t an effective means of communication. They hear the yelling more than what was said. It was pretty bad. 

 

For me one of the biggest proofs of that is that the whole incident becomes about Mom being mad at Paige and Paige being sorry and then quickly impatient. Even when Elizabeth's yelling at her it doesn't, imo, seem to come across to Paige as her getting yelled at because she did something really dangerous that needs to get through to her. It's just that Mom was REALLY MAD. The next day when Elizabeth brings up the fact that she put other peoples' lives in danger Paige has lost interest and gotten to the "I GET IT, Mom! I did a BAD thing!" stage.

50 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Lastly- motivation. I haven’t bought that Paige- last season Paige- was ready to make this a life long vocation. I’m still not. BUT- maybe that’s the point. Maybe that’s what she’ll come to realize. I buy an interest in communist ideals, bonding with her mom, attachment to causes- but this is something you have to be truly dedicated to for life. But perhaps she’ll realize she doesn’t possess that quality.....

I really hope this and the previous paragraph is where they're going because I think it's a) interesting, b) honest and c) good for both characters. Especially because for me this part is exactly what seems is the biggest danger with Paige. It's not that she has problems memorizing names or isn't confrontational enough to think on her feet with a pushy guy--although those might be problems too. It's that she seems to so clearly not be on the same page as anyone else in the business. She's not actually afraid enough of anything.

She's not even a loose canon who's trying *too hard* to prove herself because she's on fire for Communism. She seems just clinging to her situation with Elizabeth.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Like you said, with Paige it's completely the opposite. Elizabeth is the One Who Knows Everything in that relationship. She's the trainer. She's the one with experience. She's the Russian. Everything Paige knows or thinks about the Cause or Russia and even the US maybe is coming second hand from Elizabeth and Claudia. Paige is letting her lecture her on everything and is erasing anything she herself brings to the table since Americans don't really know what's going on, according to Elizabeth. Philip's ironically more likely to defend the US than Paige is.

 

The Mischa arc was really screwed up, and pointless, it appears, and how he so easily ended up getting so close to dad pretty ridiculous. If it could have been developed better, however, it may have provided some interesting conflict. Imagine if Mischa had ever met with P and E (although I don't know how it could have been written in a credible fashion), and Mischa, upon hearing Liz go on one of her rants, had said, "Honey, if you think everybody is in it together, back in the country you haven't seen since you were barely out of childhood, you are clearly out of your class-conscious mind! Wake up and smell the beef stew!"

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The Mischa arc was really screwed up, and pointless, it appears, and how he so easily ended up getting so close to dad pretty ridiculous. If it could have been developed better, however, it may have provided some interesting conflict. Imagine if Mischa had ever met with P and E (although I don't know how it could have been written in a credible fashion), and Mischa, upon hearing Liz go on one of her rants, had said, "Honey, if you think everybody is in it together, back in the country you haven't seen since you were barely out of childhood, you are clearly out of your class-conscious mind! Wake up and smell the beef stew!"

There was someone on another site who was from the USSR at that time and they absolutely could not get past how Mischa made it as close to Philip as he did. They were like...you have no idea how completely disoriented that kid would have been. The idea that he could get himself to New York and the DC on buses etc., and then find his way anywhere was just ridiculous. The worlds would have just been so different.

But yes--and the fact that Mischa, the young originally loyal Russian, had been thrown into a mental hospital for principled criticism of the country. Would Elizabeth support that? That was the main reason they didn't want Philip to meet him, that Mischa, the actual young Russian character, basically validated everything Philip was saying and feeling already. That was an early sign (one of many) that it's Philip, not Elizabeth, who's more average.

It would be hilarious seeing Mischa have a conversation with Paige and her weird view of Russia. Maybe she'd try to impress him by telling him she really digs Tchaikovsky. He might also point out that it's not just sour cream that's hard to get where he comes from. 

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

There was someone on another site who was from the USSR at that time and they absolutely could not get past how Mischa made it as close to Philip as he did. They were like...you have no idea how completely disoriented that kid would have been. The idea that he could get himself to New York and the DC on buses etc., and then find his way anywhere was just ridiculous. The worlds would have just been so different.

But yes--and the fact that Mischa, the young originally loyal Russian, had been thrown into a mental hospital for principled criticism of the country. Would Elizabeth support that? That was the main reason they didn't want Philip to meet him, that Mischa, the actual young Russian character, basically validated everything Philip was saying and feeling already. That was an early sign (one of many) that it's Philip, not Elizabeth, who's more average.

It would be hilarious seeing Mischa have a conversation with Paige and her weird view of Russia. Maybe she'd try to impress him by telling him she really digs Tchaikovsky. He might also point out that it's not just sour cream that's hard to get where he comes from. 

Yeah, that arc was really poorly written and unlike some of the poorly written arcs, I don't know how it could have been improved. If somehow Mischa could have had a meeting with the Jennings in a credible fashion, however, it would have provided a setting for some genuine dramatic tension.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Bannon

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Lastly- motivation. I haven’t bought that Paige- last season Paige- was ready to make this a life long vocation. I’m still not. BUT- maybe that’s the point. Maybe that’s what she’ll come to realize. I buy an interest in communist ideals, bonding with her mom, attachment to causes- but this is something you have to be truly dedicated to for life. But perhaps she’ll realize she doesn’t possess that quality.....

As I was reading your post, a thought occurred to me. Paige's experiences as a "spy," stake outs excluded, is really about what Paige has wanted all along - a family that extends beyond the four of them.  A need to belong to something bigger than herself. Her sessions with Claudia are like visiting grandma. She hears stories of the old days, eats the old food, listens to music she doesn't like, and watches tv and movies together. Doing stakeouts, that's just another bit of bonding, as you said. I'm not sure she really grasps any of the seriousness of what she's doing.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

For me one of the biggest proofs of that is that the whole incident becomes about Mom being mad at Paige and Paige being sorry and then quickly impatient. Even when Elizabeth's yelling at her it doesn't, imo, seem to come across to Paige as her getting yelled at because she did something really dangerous that needs to get through to her. It's just that Mom was REALLY MAD. The next day when Elizabeth brings up the fact that she put other peoples' lives in danger Paige has lost interest and gotten to the "I GET IT, Mom! I did a BAD thing!" stage.

I really hope this and the previous paragraph is where they're going because I think it's a) interesting, b) honest and c) good for both characters. Especially because for me this part is exactly what seems is the biggest danger with Paige. It's not that she has problems memorizing names or isn't confrontational enough to think on her feet with a pushy guy--although those might be problems too. It's that she seems to so clearly not be on the same page as anyone else in the business. She's not actually afraid enough of anything.

She's not even a loose canon who's trying *too hard* to prove herself because she's on fire for Communism. She seems just clinging to her situation with Elizabeth.

Yes. I hope it goes that way too - and it kind of seems like it might.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Ellaria]

12 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

As I was reading your post, a thought occurred to me. Paige's experiences as a "spy," stake outs excluded, is really about what Paige has wanted all along - a family that extends beyond the four of them.  A need to belong to something bigger than herself. Her sessions with Claudia are like visiting grandma. She hears stories of the old days, eats the old food, listens to music she doesn't like, and watches tv and movies together. Doing stakeouts, that's just another bit of bonding, as you said. I'm not sure she really grasps any of the seriousness of what she's doing.

Bingo! This makes a great deal of sense and I agree that she may not quite understand what she is involved with.

[Cthulhudrew]

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He didn't know why he was there, who she was, or even that there was going to be an audit, she explained all of that to him when they arrived.

I thought he'd mentioned he had told his girlfriend about the interview before he got there, but maybe I misheard. Still seems pretty risky to kill him, either way.

[Umbelina]

34 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I thought he'd mentioned he had told his girlfriend about the interview before he got there, but maybe I misheard. Still seems pretty risky to kill him, either way.

Anyone know for sure?

Because I honestly don't think that happened, but I could have missed it.

I'm deep in the excellent Season One now, damn this show used to be so very, very, very good.

[MBayGal]

6 hours ago, Token said:

This is what always cracks me up with these kinds of situations... Elizabeth is so hell bent on destroying the way of life in a country that she actually lives in.  I can't imagine her back in Russia living under oppression and having very little in the way of material possessions or luxury goods.  That woman likes her luxurious possessions and there's no way she could live without them.  The whole idea is just ridiculous.

I think she believes that when she can go back to Russia (1) it won't be as bad as we know it is, and (2) that she will be among the elite who have nicer things and plenty of sour cream:-)

On the subject of Pizza Hut, in the late 80's or early 90's, my later-to-be-husband went to Russia and stayed with a family there.  He wanted to treat them to a nice dinner, but the place they most wanted to go to was PH.  What to him was just a level above fast food was a huge treat for them. 

[Anela]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:57 PM, jjj said:

Philip, if you want to know the moment your marriage stopped having any chance of recovering, it was the moment you declined to eat the stew that Elizabeth carried back in a drippy container in her good handbag and presented to you so shyly and proudly.  Then she looked at you with such hope in her eyes when you came over and took ONE BITE.  It was not really stew, Philip, it was a plastic container of the last chance at love. 

 

On 4/12/2018 at 2:52 AM, Bannon said:

 

Finally, somebody oughta tell Liz that millions of Americans eat and enjoy a stew made with beef, vegetables and herbs, so a Tupperware container of it in the fridge won't tip anybody off.

Thank you! I was wondering why they couldn't keep it. I didn't see anything there, that would tip off the FBI to them being Russian. 

Someone above mentioned Phillip being full of take-out food - of course that would probably bother Elizabeth. She'd just been talking about how they ate that stew for weeks at a time, and explained they weren't in a position to complain. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Anyone know for sure?

I remember him saying in response to her telling him not to tell anyone that his girlfriend was in security so she probably already knew about it. That's why Elizabeth had to pretend to know her. So he was telling her that he assumed his girlfriend knew about this totally legit audit, which she would, of course, if it was real. If he'd told her he'd already told his girlfriend about the audit Elizabeth would already be caught because the girlfriend would know it wasn't legit.

24 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

I think she believes that when she can go back to Russia (1) it won't be as bad as we know it is, and (2) that she will be among the elite who have nicer things and plenty of sour cream:-)

I don't think she wants to go back to Russia at all. She thinks she does, but she's always been the one to nix the idea. I think especially now she's got to have some unconscious fear that it wouldn't live up to her expectations. So she's happier to die in the US. Especially now that, as much as she denies it, there's all this evidence that home is changing in ways she doesn't like.

14 minutes ago, Anela said:

Someone above mentioned Phillip being full of take-out food - of course that would probably bother Elizabeth. She'd just been talking about how they ate that stew for weeks at a time, and explained they weren't in a position to complain. 

Of course, the real issue was that Philip had no reason to wait for her to eat. The first time she came home in the premiere he was eating a sandwich standing up in the kitchen when she walked in and didn't speak. So it's really more that she doesn't cook meals for anyone else anymore (except this one for work) and Philip had no way to know she'd bring anything home that night.

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

As I was reading your post, a thought occurred to me. Paige's experiences as a "spy," stake outs excluded, is really about what Paige has wanted all along - a family that extends beyond the four of them.

LOL--or the three of them it almost seems like, at least from Paige's pov. If the family's Russian, Henry isn't aware of it!

[Anela]

On 4/12/2018 at 11:34 AM, RedHawk said:

So Elizabeth was essentially calling the Washington Post “fake news”. Heh. That gave me a chuckle.

Of course she'd say that, if they're reporting what she doesn't want to hear. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Anela

[Anela]

2 hours ago, MBayGal said:

I think she believes that when she can go back to Russia (1) it won't be as bad as we know it is, and (2) that she will be among the elite who have nicer things and plenty of sour cream:-)

On the subject of Pizza Hut, in the late 80's or early 90's, my later-to-be-husband went to Russia and stayed with a family there.  He wanted to treat them to a nice dinner, but the place they most wanted to go to was PH.  What to him was just a level above fast food was a huge treat for them. 

It was a huge treat for us in England, too - we couldn't afford pizza regularly. When we moved back over here, it seemed like pizza was dinner at least once a week, and we went off it. I barely it now. 

[dubbel zout]

We lived in Holland for five years when I was a kid, and the first McDonald's there was national news. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I remember him saying in response to her telling him not to tell anyone that his girlfriend was in security so she probably already knew about it. That's why Elizabeth had to pretend to know her. So he was telling her that he assumed his girlfriend knew about this totally legit audit, which she would, of course, if it was real. If he'd told her he'd already told his girlfriend about the audit Elizabeth would already be caught because the girlfriend would know it wasn't legit.

Yes, but the poster was saying he mentioned telling his girlfriend where he would be right when he arrived.

I remember well the part you are describing, but not him telling Elizabeth he'd told his girlfriend where he'd be when they first started.

[Anela]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

We lived in Holland for five years when I was a kid, and the first McDonald's there was national news. 

I wasn't a fan of McDonalds. I didn't like their burgers, and would only get an apple pie, and maybe some fries. We met my American family members there (aside from Dad), in London, when they arrived for a visit, though. 

I would like to see how Elizabeth really likes Russia, after living in the US for so long. I can understand her being so protective of her homeland, though. I am of England, and I haven't lived there for almost twenty-eight years. 

[SoMuchTV]

Can someone help me out with this?  I feel like there must have been some explanation I missed.  What is Claudia's "story"?  It's oh-so-dangerous for Elizabeth and Philip to have beef stew in their house, but Elizabeth and Paige can hang out at Claudia's watching Russian movies and making Russian food and talking about their childhoods in Russia.  They don't seem to wear disguises to come and go, and Paige can just pop out to the store for sour cream (with no ball cap!)  - do they have some kind of cover story for the visits?  Does Claudia have an "American" identity?  (Although this question was triggered by the episode, it's really more about the season or series overall, but I couldn't figure out a more appropriate thread.)

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Can someone help me out with this?  I feel like there must have been some explanation I missed.  What is Claudia's "story"?  It's oh-so-dangerous for Elizabeth and Philip to have beef stew in their house, but Elizabeth and Paige can hang out at Claudia's watching Russian movies and making Russian food and talking about their childhoods in Russia. 

That's a safe house. They all come and go from safe houses without any disguises. They can change clothes there etc. It's not Claudia's actual house either. In a safe house they can basically talk about anything. It's probably completely generic when they're not there--they probably take everything they do there away when they're done.

Claudia would, presumably, have an American identity but we don't know it. We only see her meeting with Elizabeth and Philip either outside or at a safe house. We did once see Kate, their handler in season 2, at home and it looked like a suburban home where she actually lived.

Edited April 17, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SoMuchTV]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's a safe house. They all come and go from safe houses without any disguises. They can change clothes there etc. It's not Claudia's actual house either. In a safe house they can basically talk about anything. It's probably completely generic when they're not there--they probably take everything they do there away when they're done.

Claudia would, presumably, have an American identity but we don't know it. We only see her meeting with Elizabeth and Philip either outside or at a safe house. We did once see Kate, their handler in season 2, at home and it looked like a suburban home where she actually lived.

Thanks.  I'm probably overthinking it.  It just seems like even a "safe" house would have neighbors that are curious about the people who come and go, and if some authority became suspicious enough they could see who came and went.  I'm sure Elizabeth wouldn't let herself be followed, but I'm not so sure about Paige and her trip to the store.  I'll have to go read more about the real-life spies!

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, SoMuchTV said:

Thanks.  I'm probably overthinking it.  It just seems like even a "safe" house would have neighbors that are curious about the people who come and go, and if some authority became suspicious enough they could see who came and went.  I'm sure Elizabeth wouldn't let herself be followed, but I'm not so sure about Paige and her trip to the store.  I'll have to go read more about the real-life spies!

No, I think those questions do make sense. I don't know exactly how it works, but it seems like according to the rules of the show (and maybe this is just reality) safe houses are places where anything can happen. It's the place where you can hide Martha, eat Russian food (Gabriel would do that with them too), watch Russian movies. So this is the place they'd pick for Paige's Russia lessons, such as they are. I don't know what exactly makes something a safe house but they must do something about them so they know they really are safe.

[kokapetl]

On 14/04/2018 at 10:43 PM, Miles said:

I thought that stretched credibility a bit far and with a bit I mean to the point of breaking.

I know she has all that awesome spy training, but what is she, 55kg soaking wet? That guy on the other hand was massive and he didn't go down immediatly. I get he was surprised, but still, after a few seconds of somebody choking you, don't you just bodyslam them into the floor, especially when you have so much weight on them?

I could have easily bought it if she had taken out a knife and stabbed him in the back a few times. But strangeling him? Come on. Who filmed this and thought it made sense?

 

I mean if she is a spy she would never pass the backgroundcheck. But she might have known about the age limit for new recruits and is trying to work "her disappointment" to get a lower grade government job or at least to get Stan to open up more.

Or she is just a normal american who hates her jorb.

 

I mean that's nice and all, but he had just eaten a ton of chinese food. There are biological limits. I doubt it would have been very romantic had he eaten it and immediatly thrown up. The one bite was a nice enough gesture.

 

Eh, they think Paige is their next big asset. A second generation american who can deeply infiltrate the government. I'm sure they wouldn't risk that by killing her father. The pastor couple, who knows what happened to them after they left...

 

That is exactly what a russian spy would say...

Becoming a 600 lb American would be very beneficial to his cover. 

Claudia did briefly retired and co home to the USSR, but she discovered that she couldn’t relate to her own daughter. Things had changed too much. 

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Can someone help me out with this?  I feel like there must have been some explanation I missed.  What is Claudia's "story"?  It's oh-so-dangerous for Elizabeth and Philip to have beef stew in their house, but Elizabeth and Paige can hang out at Claudia's watching Russian movies and making Russian food and talking about their childhoods in Russia.  They don't seem to wear disguises to come and go, and Paige can just pop out to the store for sour cream (with no ball cap!)  - do they have some kind of cover story for the visits?  Does Claudia have an "American" identity?  (Although this question was triggered by the episode, it's really more about the season or series overall, but I couldn't figure out a more appropriate thread.)

 

10 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Thanks.  I'm probably overthinking it.  It just seems like even a "safe" house would have neighbors that are curious about the people who come and go, and if some authority became suspicious enough they could see who came and went.  I'm sure Elizabeth wouldn't let herself be followed, but I'm not so sure about Paige and her trip to the store.  I'll have to go read more about the real-life spies!

Claudia is pretty interesting.  As I mentioned in another thread, I'm watching old seasons again, and paying more attention to things like Claudia's backstory. 

She and Zhukov (Elizabeth's favorite trainer who was killed by the CIA in retaliation for the 3 FBI deaths in the bomb blast at the scientist's home) met in 1942 during the battle of Stalingrad.  (The battle there that eventually ended Hitler a couple of years later.)  She also mentions to Elizabeth that she was behind enemy lines there (so basically don't bore me with your cushy little experiences and think I've always just been "granny" honey.) 

Back to the "safe house."  There are many of them, rented or owned, and Granny or Gabriel move between them at will.  Granny may or may not live in the one where she is currently meeting Elizabeth and Paige.  Granny and Gabe were very mobile, they could conceivably have "safe houses" in several other states as well, and of course in Canada.  They handle more than just the Jennings, or did in the past.  In a safe house, they can take more risks, because leaving is easy, and for other reasons that are obvious.  The safe houses are well chosen (although that house Gabe was using during the whole Martha thing certainly looked more vulnerable to me than the others!)  Each house is equipped enough, food, appliances, beds, sheets, kitchen stuff for long or short term "safety."

In contrast, Elizabeth and Philip have ONE house, but access to, and knowledge of numerous other safe houses.  In their long term permanent house they are not allowed to have anything at all that would connect them to the USSR. 

ETA Granny and Gabe are primarily handlers now, but we've seen both of them participate in ops, including in disguises, so they will do that when needed.  For example, Granny posed as Philip's mother when he married Martha, and posed as a confused old woman when she murdered the CIA guy.  Gabe posed as Elizabeth's distraught and sickly father when they were in Young Hee's husband's office.  I'm pretty sure both have done lookout duty as well at times.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[Eulipian 5k]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:04 PM, JFParnell said:

That was just sad to witness. Philip has done some groveling tonight. Henry better not get too attached to that school.

Could Philip fake Don Draper's name on a bonus check? I hope this storyline has a better pay-off for Philip than the old Monty Python "Matching Tie and Hankerchief" album cover.

[kokapetl]

On 18/04/2018 at 6:30 AM, Umbelina said:

 

Claudia is pretty interesting.  As I mentioned in another thread, I'm watching old seasons again, and paying more attention to things like Claudia's backstory. 

She and Zhukov (Elizabeth's favorite trainer who was killed by the CIA in retaliation for the 3 FBI deaths in the bomb blast at the scientist's home) met in 1942 during the battle of Stalingrad.  (The battle there that eventually ended Hitler a couple of years later.)  She also mentions to Elizabeth that she was behind enemy lines there (so basically don't bore me with your cushy little experiences and think I've always just been "granny" honey.) 

Back to the "safe house."  There are many of them, rented or owned, and Granny or Gabriel move between them at will.  Granny may or may not live in the one where she is currently meeting Elizabeth and Paige.  Granny and Gabe were very mobile, they could conceivably have "safe houses" in several other states as well, and of course in Canada.  They handle more than just the Jennings, or did in the past.  In a safe house, they can take more risks, because leaving is easy, and for other reasons that are obvious.  The safe houses are well chosen (although that house Gabe was using during the whole Martha thing certainly looked more vulnerable to me than the others!)  Each house is equipped enough, food, appliances, beds, sheets, kitchen stuff for long or short term "safety."

In contrast, Elizabeth and Philip have ONE house, but access to, and knowledge of numerous other safe houses.  In their long term permanent house they are not allowed to have anything at all that would connect them to the USSR. 

ETA Granny and Gabe are primarily handlers now, but we've seen both of them participate in ops, including in disguises, so they will do that when needed.  For example, Granny posed as Philip's mother when he married Martha, and posed as a confused old woman when she murdered the CIA guy.  Gabe posed as Elizabeth's distraught and sickly father when they were in Young Hee's husband's office.  I'm pretty sure both have done lookout duty as well at times.

Yeah, I don’t think Claudia really lives at the USSR sisterly bonding house. 

[Umbelina]

She may have before the war, but who knows, she's a very good liar, like all good spies.

[sistermagpie]

53 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She may have before the war, but who knows, she's a very good liar, like all good spies.

I think they were referring to the place where they watching movies etc.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they were referring to the place where they watching movies etc.

I think it was the boarding house thing in the movie @Kokapetl was talking about.  Claudia said she used to live in a place like that.

[misstwpherecool]

I don't care how good one's disguises are. Eating pizza near her employer is extremely risky. If someone had accidentally  bumped into her or spilled something, those events alone could triggered a glance from her employer/negotiator-they draw attention even if momentary.

And another body, from a defense contractor no less and friend in security who won't miss him apparently.

The seeds laid for the commie family's financial troubles in a capitalist society. Wouldn't that be irony. Instead of bullets bills and bankruptcy could be their downfall.

[John Potts]

Funny seeing Philip putting his spy training to good use... in getting an extension on Henry's tuition fees! And I think he did push Elizabeth a bit into being a better trainer to Paige instead of just shouting at her. Of course, he's also working them for info (Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive...).

Did like the scene in the hotel, because no matter how good security is, people are (probably) going to be the weak link. I did think that Elizabeth might make it through the episode without killing anyone, and then moments before the end, she just couldn't kick the habit (like in Torchwood, there needs to be a Murderers Anonymous)!

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:23 AM, tennisgurl said:

Elizabeth's lecture to Paige the other day about how the world isn't black and white and is actually grey is seriously hilarious on every level coming from Elizabeth, who has the most black and white thinking of any person this entire show.

It's a shame Paige isn't talking to her dad, who seems to have a much clearer view of what people in both the US AND the USSR really want.

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:41 AM, Erin9 said:

Elizabeth really associates any change, especially any that the US applauds, as bad. That’s sad. Life is about change. Things do change.  Everything western doesn’t have to be bad. Truth is- as they both pointed out-neither one of them have a clue what the average Russian wants

...which is ironic, because the according to the Marxist dialectic, change is part of the historical progression toward the Communist Utopia, which Elizabeth (in theory) believes in.

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:09 PM, attica said:

Except it's not only food. It's decades of discipline and protocol.

Exactly. You don't survive decades in the spy game by being sloppy. There are numerous tales of spies being caught by the smallest of things - if Philip/Elizabeth/Paige don't keep an eye on them, they could wind up dead.

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:07 PM, sistermagpie said:

Regarding Philip's cringeworthy motivational speaking, it occurs to me that whenever he's dealing with someone that goes directly against his upbringing, it doesn't come naturally to him.

I don't know - I've listened to some pretty crappy "inspirational management speeches" (though not in travel agency - or espionage) and they mostly landed about as flat.

On ‎13‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 12:51 AM, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth was just fine with him being in that school. It was *Philip* who didn't want him there. Elizabeth didn't even understand why Philip even cared.

Except - wouldn't it fit the KGB view to assume that, in the decadent capitalist society, to get into a prestigious government job, you'd need to go to a fancy-pants school (rightly or wrongly)?

On ‎13‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 12:58 AM, Penman61 said:

I can't escape her.  She tasks me...she tasks me...

...and I suppose you shall have her! You'll chase her 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round perdition's flames before you give her up!

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, John Potts said:

Except - wouldn't it fit the KGB view to assume that, in the decadent capitalist society, to get into a prestigious government job, you'd need to go to a fancy-pants school (rightly or wrongly)?

Sure--but Elizabeth doesn't look at it that way either! She didn't care about him being truly indoctrinated into some Reagan-loving preppie school, but she also has never shown any sign that she sees the advantage of that. Paige is a sophomore with plans to get a job at some important government place and neither she nor Elizabeth nor Claudia seem to have any specific plans for that career.

[Umbelina]

One thing I thought was noteworthy that I didn't mention, and I don't think I saw anyone else mention.

That look Elizabeth has while she's busy yelling at Philip that Paige won't be a "her" or an "Annaliese stuffed in a suitcase?"  Either right before or right after her memorized speech about how Paige will just work in an office somewhere, which has become almost a mantra to Elizabeth, "if I say it enough maybe it will be true?"  There was focus on her face, and her eyes showed that she knows damn well that Philip is right, the worry was there, the moment of clarity was RIGHT THERE.  Including clarity about her own delusions...

Did anyone else catch that?

[kokapetl]

To clarify, I meant Claudia’s apartment where Paige watches Soviet movies. 

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:28 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I kind of get throwing the food away as a precaution. 

Or as symbolism.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

To clarify, I meant Claudia’s apartment where Paige watches Soviet movies. 

As I said, it's just one of the equipped safe houses I believe.  It's not more "hers" than Gabe's apartment or house was "his."  In contrast to that, Philip and Elizabeth have a real place they live.  They have access to safe houses if needed.

Quote

 

On 4/12/2018 at 6:28 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I kind of get throwing the food away as a precaution. 

 

10 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Or as symbolism.

They threw it away because that was a KGB rule, a rule they've followed since they've been in the USA.  Of course it's a precaution, which is why the KGB made it a rule.

I think it was also used as symbolism by the show, but not by the KGB.

[spaceghostess]

During Russian Cooking with Claudia! I couldn't help being sidetracked by the fact that Elizabeth's knife skills appear to be solely of the killing variety. Paige? Even worse. Yeesh. It'd be a miracle if those vegetables made it into the stewpot in less than three hours.

Edited April 23, 2018 by spaceghostess

[Clanstarling]

30 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

During Russian Cooking with Claudia! I couldn't help being sidetracked by the fact that Elizabeth's knife skills appear to be solely of the killing variety. Paige? Even worse. Yeesh. It'd be a miracle if those vegetables made it into the stewpot in less than three hours.

 

I always notice knife skills on TV shows.  And I sure noticed the lack thereof in the Claudia! show. I always wonder if it's an acting choice, or simply that the actor/actress doesn't have a clue. Given that Keri chops as expertly as she smokes, I think it's more that she doesn't have a clue.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Clanstarling