S06.E03: Urban Transport Planning

[Bannon]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

 

There's been a lot of talk about whether there's a way to justify Henry no longer having a full scholarship or if it's just a cheap retcon, but I went back and checked the transcripts from last season, and there's no indication he ever had a full scholarship to begin with. There are only two mentions of Henry getting scholarship funds: in "IHOP," Philip asks if the school is expensive, and Henry says. "Yeah, but at St. Edwards, I can probably get a scholarship." Then in "The Soviet Division" he just says, "I got in! To St. Edwards. And I got the scholarship."

To me that seems totally consistent with the idea that Henry got a partial scholarship that brought a school that was otherwise too expensive down into their upper-middle-class price range, until Philip blew all their money on expanding the family business.

I was also thinking about what I mentioned earlier, how the mechanics of the travel agency business would explain how Philip got himself into such a cash flow crunch. I realized that the exact timing of the expansion also accounts for why it was such a problem. Philip mentions that this is the first time he'll be late making a payment, on "this quarter's billing." If he's paying quarterly, and the last time he had no problem making good, it suggests that he didn't start dropping money on the expansion until around the spring of that year.

Why is that significant? Because as I mentioned in my earlier post, travel agencies don't get paid until people actually go on their trips, and people book their trips months in advance. They also mostly travel in the summer. So if Philip was stupid enough to expand his travel agency just before the summer travel season, it means he'd have to wait almost a year for most of the new business to pay out.

Come to think of it, that's why losing Jeremy's business was so significant. Phil specifically asks him, "Do we have you guys all set up for this year?" not ". . . for next summer?" or ". . . for next spring?" That means that his family were among the relatively rare fall or winter travelers, and Phil was counting on their money coming in sometime in the next three months. Missing a big winter sale while waiting for summer sales to come due could potentially fuck the company over very badly.

 

I'm sorry but the tuition squeeze still doesn't make sense. Star athletes at elite East Coast prep schools don't have to worry about leaving the school midway through their junior year, for failure of parents being able to pay tuition, absent academic failure or disciplinary issues. The conversation between the school administrator and Phil made no sense. Schools like that make special accommodations ALL THE TIME with regard to finances, for students they find desirable, and a hockey team star would be very desirable. The only impediments would be discipline issues or academics, and if that is what has happened, then, ya' know, the job of a writer is to write scenes which SHOW us the important stuff which happens with recurring characters. Perhaps at the expense of subplots that lead nowhere or illuminate very little.

Could Phillip and the school administrator have a conversation as to why a bill hasn't been paid? Sure, but the conversation would not go like the one these writers provided us.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Bannon

[Clanstarling]

Whew! Finally made it through 5 pages of comments. Thank goodness the multi-quote function lets me stack quotes up, and then delete them when I realize that more than one person has beat me to the punch.

Anyway, I enjoyed this episode, and got a little verklempt at Philip and Oleg's meeting. It's not going to end well, but it's good to see them together.

23 hours ago, RedHawk said:

How do you solve a problem like Renee? When chatting with Henry, Stan said that as an agent he couldn’t trust anyone, not even his own wife, or Henry his young neighbor-pal. Yet now Renée’s ridiculous sudden desire to be an FBI agent doesn’t ring one tiny alarm bell? Sigh. I hope it actually does and he’s playing cool and preparing to do some background check on her — which makes me think, wouldn’t he have done one anyway prior to marriage?

I hope the financial problem with Henry’s school will indeed be an excuse to bring him home, probably quite sullen. Henry will enter the Jennings household with fresh eyes and likely pick up on a lot of things that obtuse Paige (supersmart spy!) just can’t see.

After three years (or more, I forget how long he was with her last season) with her, I don't think he has any alarm bells to ring, after all she did marry him. It was an odd desire - I was expecting for her to say she wanted to get one of the support positions at the FBI, ala Martha.

23 hours ago, jjj said:

It was a big spoiler that last week's preview showed Elizabeth killing him.  No suspense at all in that meeting, just waiting for the weekly kill. 

Which is why I never watch them. Except for Mad Men's - which were edited in later seasons to be completely uninformative. They always made me laugh.

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I thought that was significant too. Philip didn't claim to be speaking for people back home but Elizabeth very clearly did. Also it's nice that at the end of the episode Philip actually was speaking with somebody from back home--that is, from back home now rather than another Illegal who's been here for years.

Poor Philip's always being accused of not liking Russian food--it would be great if part of the reason for that is that he grew up to poor to actually have memories of this stuff. I'll have to watch the scene again, but don't they start talking about Perestroika while he's eating it? I thought it was more just a metaphor for Philip's position in general, that he's "becoming Americanized" in the same way Russia is. That is, he doesn't need to revere all Russian food above all else.

When Elizabeth made her "you neither" comment, I had forgotten that Philip had actually, however brief the initial contact, talked to someone back home. So I thought "valid point."

I had a similar thought when he was presented with the food, after all, we'd only ever seen him eat that charcoal brick looking bread, or whatever it was. So it's not like meat was on his family's menu.

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

So much this. And it doesn't seem like a failure of Holly Taylor's performance or anything. The entire scene is written in such a way that it could just as easily be a slightly more mature Paige being confronted for going off on that bus trip back in S2. It's all, "I get it. I did a bad thing. I understand." And then back to philosophical musings about life. (She didn't even press Elizabeth on her story that the guy was "desperate" when Elizabeth was really talking about herself.) When it should have actually been a come to Jesus moment for both of them. Even right after it happened she was defending herself: I heard gunshots! I didn't know what had happened to you! That is still Paige's idea of common sense.

I find that generally when people say "I get it," (especially in that tone) they don't. Or at the least, like Paige, show no signs of actually absorbing the critique/lesson.

20 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Stavos at the travel agency looked like he wanted to crawl under his desk in embarrassment (for Phillip) during that motivational speech. He was also thinking, "Don't pick me, don't pick me!" so loud I could hear it. Poor Stavos, probably their first employee. I wonder if he will have a role in The End. I kind of hope so. Surely after all these years he's had some questions about P&E's unusual and often secretive behavior. Or maybe we'll find out he's a long-time recruit after all. I have always wanted to know a bit more about him.manageable payment plans. 

I'm enjoying the fact they're giving the actor a little more to do as Stavos, and I'd be happy if it ends up being significant at the end.

11 hours ago, jjj said:

I think the recap mentioned how low the peephole was on Oleg's hotel door.  I know he is tall, but for what short person was it built -- even if Oleg stooped down to look through it, all he would have seen is Stan's tie.  So, it needs a short person on both sides.  

Me, it was built for me. And still not low enough. There's a fisheye element, so you can usually look a little higher - but yeah, with a really tall guy it would be the tie.

10 hours ago, scrb said:

Not only that, she chokes the guy to death, with those burly arms of hers.

Ah, but they're tight and corded like ropes - so she's garrotting him. :)

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

The talk of the FBI absconding with a small child reminded me -- the kid who played Sofia's son looked familiar to me, but I couldn't figure out where I'd seen him before. Turns out he played the main character in the instant-classic SNL sketch from last season, "Wells for Boys":

OMG, thank you. I was trying to figure out who he was too and I could not be more pleased it was that kid. My main impression was that he looked so woeful and hapless and...he just needs to be by the well for a while.

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Phil and Liz have been a union (definitely a less than perfect one) for five seasons and, despite differences, they usually had the same goals. Now, they appear to be are on opposite sides of everything: interactions with their children, politics, even the concept of Pizza Hut in Moscow. Their marriage is at the heart of this show and it remains to be seen if it will survive intact at the end. (I doubt it.) They are lying to themselves and to others and moving further into their own corners. This is what will drive the end of the show.

But tbf, if that's the whole endgame it's already happened. Why start the show with them literally doing all that in the first episode? Here 2 episodes later Elizabeth is expressing that she misses Philip and Philip is gazing with deep melancholy at her while she sleeps. Elizabeth is, imo, showing some conflict about spying for Paige, even if she's not admitting it, and now Philip's struggling with the travel agency (and also not admitting it). At the end...Philip's back in on the spying. 

Doesn't mean they'd survive intact. Of course that's never been very hopeful just in a practical sense. But having the two of them shoot at each other, metaphorically or not, doesn't really seem in keeping with the story since as this episode reminds us, they haven't been to the USSR in 20 years. They're fighting for potential versions of the USSR but their actual life is with each other. Twenty years ago they were dropped together into the US as Illegals, the only two people they knew in that tiny, dangerous club. Now they're the two people picked out to fight a proxy war for the USSR in the USA, again the only two people in that tiny, dangerous club.

Quote

 

I find that generally when people say "I get it," (especially in that tone) they don't. Or at the least, like Paige, show no signs of actually absorbing the critique/lesson.

 

Yes, absolutely, the fact that she would even say "I get it" as if it's just a thing that should click in your mind doesn't really fit the situation. Paige was already at the stage where *she* was getting irritated at Elizabeth bringing the subject up again by saying she put everyone's life in danger. There was no moment where she showed an actual reaction to the understanding of what she had done. It was all reaction to her mother's reaction. This is really not something Elizabeth should have to scold or punish a 19 year old into.

Quote

 

I'm enjoying the fact they're giving the actor a little more to do as Stavos, and I'd be happy if it ends up being significant at the end.

 

It does seem like it's very possible they could use him for something. Not necessarily a big plot thing, but Stavos seems to be a little ambivalent about the "new" agency and they could totally throw in an unexpected private conversation between them, for instance. Even one of those conversations where it's significant without Stavos knowing what they're really talking about. Stavos is an immigrant, after all. They have that in common. Stavos just doesn't know it.

Stavos is somebody who would have a serious reaction to the truth coming out if he knew about it.

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, jjj said:

Oh, now I think she works for KAOS!

We all know she works for SPECTRE.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

We all know she works for SPECTRE.

The DVX.

[Ellaria]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But tbf, if that's the whole endgame it's already happened. Why start the show with them literally doing all that in the first episode? Here 2 episodes later Elizabeth is expressing that she misses Philip and Philip is gazing with deep melancholy at her while she sleeps. Elizabeth is, imo, showing some conflict about spying for Paige, even if she's not admitting it, and now Philip's struggling with the travel agency (and also not admitting it). At the end...Philip's back in on the spying. 

Doesn't mean they'd survive intact. Of course that's never been very hopeful just in a practical sense. But having the two of them shoot at each other, metaphorically or not, doesn't really seem in keeping with the story since as this episode reminds us, they haven't been to the USSR in 20 years. They're fighting for potential versions of the USSR but their actual life is with each other. Twenty years ago they were dropped together into the US as Illegals, the only two people they knew in that tiny, dangerous club. Now they're the two people picked out to fight a proxy war for the USSR in the USA, again the only two people in that tiny, dangerous club.

I didn't state that they end would end shooting "at each other, metaphorically or not." I said that they were in different corners now. 

If I had to guess, I would say that one "goes down" to protect the other. Perhaps not in a public way - perhaps in a way that will only be know to the two of them. And I say that because their relationship has been the core of the show.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I didn't state that they end would end shooting "at each other, metaphorically or not." I said that they were in different corners now. 

 

Oh, sorry. I thought you were saying you thought the trajectory was them moving further in that direction due to the plot. Many people do think that is the idea so it's not completely out of the question.

[Ellaria]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, sorry. I thought you were saying you thought the trajectory was them moving further in that direction due to the plot. Many people do think that is the idea so it's not completely out of the question.

But that could be the case. Or it could not. Their relationship is at a crossroads right now. And that's not unlike many married couples...even those not in the spy biz.

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I didn't state that they end would end shooting "at each other, metaphorically or not." I said that they were in different corners now. 

If I had to guess, I would say that one "goes down" to protect the other. Perhaps not in a public way - perhaps in a way that will only be know to the two of them. And I say that because their relationship has been the core of the show.

Yeah, that's been my guess for a while now as well, and I've always felt it will be Philip who goes down, probably protecting Elizabeth.  Now though?  I see it could happen with Philip trying to protect Oleg, or possible even Stan, and getting caught in the crossfire.  Could Elizabeth be holding the weapon?  Possibly.  I don't give that idea much of a chance though, maybe 25% she actually kills him, I know these writers could probably make it work, but...

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

But that could be the case. Or it could not. Their relationship is at a crossroads right now. And that's not unlike many married couples...even those not in the spy biz.

Absolutely it could. Right now it seems like there's stuff weighted on both sides. Lots of things pushing them apart but other things pushing them together. 

Of course there's also different ways to define whether or not they're "together." I'm realizing that for me there's a lot of situations where they would end up apart, especially with one of them dead, and I'd still consider them to have wound up together.  

[Ellaria]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Of course there's also different ways to define whether or not they're "together." I'm realizing that for me there's a lot of situations where they would end up apart, especially with one of them dead, and I'd still consider them to have wound up together.  

Well said. And I believe that will be the ultimate outcome: not physically together but emotionally, philosophically together.

[Erin9]

1 minute ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Well said. And I believe that will be the ultimate outcome: not physically together but emotionally, philosophically together.

That would be my best guess too. 

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, that's been my guess for a while now as well, and I've always felt it will be Philip who goes down, probably protecting Elizabeth.  Now though?  I see it could happen with Philip trying to protect Oleg, or possible even Stan, and getting caught in the crossfire.  Could Elizabeth be holding the weapon?  Possibly.  I don't give that idea much of a chance though, maybe 25% she actually kills him, I know these writers could probably make it work, but...

I think Philip is the logical and predictable one to die for someone else. Elizabeth, Paige, family in general.  Always has been. That’s why- if I had to pick between the 2 in that particular scenario- I’d pick Elizabeth. Because to get her to the point where she’d truly put family over everything would be huge. Especially if she sacrificed a mission to do it. 

[Pink-n-Green]

20 hours ago, shura said:

I am not sure she is the moron, actually. It was Stan's and Aderholt's idea to recruit her, she didn't even want to do it at first. Nor was it her idea to go into witness protection now.

Is that what happens to people who seek asylum in America; they're put into Witness Protection?  I'm honestly curious.  I had always assumed they're just given permission to live here and then they're on their own.  But Witness Protection does make sense, although I don't think Sophia will ever be able to pass for "Susie Smith from Buffalo"!

PS  I think it's terrible that Elizabeth won't share her snazzy wig collection with Paige. That lame "disguise" with the beret sucks.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Pink-n-Green
addition

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Well said. And I believe that will be the ultimate outcome: not physically together but emotionally, philosophically together.

Especially since we know how the whole war thing turns out. The only real stakes is their relationship and how they work it out. 

Though it is also interesting to think about it in terms of the USSR, since their split is mirroring things there. Not that I expect the show to just have P&E's story follow some interpretation of USSR society, but all Russians moved together into the future. There is no endgame to history. Even if Elizabeth got the victory she wanted it would have started changing the second it happened.

For me that's also the main thing about the Oleg plot. The reason I want to root for him, Arkady and Philip isn't because I think they're 100% right politically or Elizabeth is representing some obviously wrong moral idea in every way. The difference between them seem more about the motivation behind the choices that Oleg, Arkady and Philip are making, which have been led up to through the five previous seasons, vs. the ones that drive Elizabeth and Claudia. Not that I don't find Elizabeth's choices sympathetic at all, but I guess when it comes down to it the central issue almost seems to be choices built on fear. Elizabeth even had that whole speech to Paige about how this is her way of not having to be afraid, but that in itself reveals just how much it's driving her. Of course the other side is afraid as well, but they don't seem to be directed by it the same way. 

It's like...you need to get out of the bunker. 

It occurs to me that I'll bet if you went through the show there would be a lot of lines where this concept of fear came up in this way, including a fear of joy. Philip, by contrast, used to get a lot of people asking him "Who are you?" in different ways. EST just crystallized it into a self-help philosophy.

Quote

Is that what happens to people who seek asylum in America; they're put into Witness Protection?  I'm honestly curious.  I had always assumed they're just given permission to live here and then they're on their own.  But Witness Protection does make sense, although I don't think Sophia will ever be able to pass for "Susie Smith from Buffalo"!

I think most asylum seekers just get to live in the US as themselves.

Edited April 13, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Is that what happens to people who seek asylum in America; they're put into Witness Protection?  I'm honestly curious.  I had always assumed they're just given permission to live here and then they're on their own.  But Witness Protection does make sense, although I don't think Sophia will ever be able to pass for "Susie Smith from Buffalo"!

It would depend.

If they had betrayed secrets or something or someone important, or had been working secretly for the FBI or CIA against their own country?  Probably witness protection, new IDs, all of it.  If they are just some average person escaping who had no intelligence or propaganda value?  Probably just allowed to live here openly. 

Also, as I said above, back then, that didn't mean their relatives back in the USSR specifically, wouldn't be punished in various ways.  Perhaps not imprisoned or charged with trumped up charges, but they could be under suspicion, or in my friend's cases?  Simply removed from jobs and homes without their possessions and a young baby in midwinter.  At that point there, they would become "parasites" and anyone helping them could also be punished.  Basically, go freeze and/or starve to death, or impose on, and put in danger, any friends who tried to help.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[Pink-n-Green]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, as I said above, back then, that didn't mean their relatives back in the USSR specifically, wouldn't be punished in various ways.  Perhaps not imprisoned or charged with trumped up charges, but they could be under suspicion, or in my friend's cases?  Simply removed from jobs and homes without their possessions and a young baby in midwinter.  At that point there, they would become "parasites" and anyone helping them could also be punished.  Basically, go freeze and/or starve to death, or impose on, and put in danger, any friends who tried to help.

I hadn't thought of that but, yeah, that definitely makes sense about the danger to the family members still in the USSR.  I'm sorry that happened to your friends; that's terrible. Did things get better for them after the cold war ended?

[Umbelina]

21 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I hadn't thought of that but, yeah, that definitely makes sense about the danger to the family members still in the USSR.  I'm sorry that happened to your friends; that's terrible. Did things get better for them after the cold war ended?

I don't know.  That was in the seventies, and we lost touch when I moved away.  It was an older couple I met by contrived chance through work, I made it possible to meet them, simply because they spoke Russian, and I wanted a chance to speak in Russian.

We should take this to the small talk thread maybe, but briefly, at first they were terrified of me.  They were in their sixties, and there I was speaking perfect if extremely limited Russian, so of course their first thoughts probably were that I was there to do them harm.  (Was I an Elizabeth???)  After it became clear my Russian certainly wasn't native, and after the husband decided I was on the up and up, just some friendly American?  Suddenly I was invited in, tea and tons of food items were produced, and I was overwhelmingly welcomed.

The wife had no English, only the husband was learning.  So I just helped out with little things at first, helping her to not be overwhelmed or frightened about the huge grocery stores with SO much stuff she couldn't understand, things like that.  After I got involved (foolishly perhaps, but youth is so brave) in their issues with the Russian Embassy trying to help them get their packages through to their adult children and grandchild in Moscow.  Each was returned for some "violation" and honestly, after a short time, it was obvious the only reason they were not being allowed into the country was to punish the parents. 

It led to some interesting and enlightening conversations between Soviets at the embassy and me, while they listened, she terrified, him angry and also scared, while I tried to nail the embassy reps into examining the packages HERE before they were mailed, so they would be allowed, etc.  I offered to drive them up to San Francisco myself (the couple was much too afraid to walk into a Russian Embassy.)  They (embassy)  would say they spoke no English, so I'd switch to Russian, and I just wouldn't give up.  I think that was what completely shocked them the most, seeing me, a young girl to them, showing no fear (stupidity?) but not letting what I now realize was probably a minor KGB agent get off the hooks.

I do know their children and grandchild WERE helped by friends there, a coat, a hat, gloves, sometimes a place to get out of the cold, or even to sleep for a night, but it was fraught with danger for all involved.

So, this couple were refugees but not officially traitors.  They were not hidden.  Actually, they could have been some of the first traded in the whole Jewish trade thing (reminds me of that American's episode.)

Edited April 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[BingeyKohan]

I'm not terribly interested in the travel agency financials, but I thought it was telling that Stan expositioned to Renee (for our benefit really) that Elizabeth was off working with their corporate clients (as a way of explaining they're not exactly joined at the hip at work, like Renee wants to be with Stan). In his ra-ra speech to his staff, it sounded like Philip's motivation was really about selling to personal-travel customers, about things like where your cabin is on the cruise ship, etc. Maybe they're suggesting that the agency is struggling because she is not doing her part with corporate clients, while she is struggling because Philip is no longer her support in the field? Meaning they need each other in both directions? Although odd that Stan would be the deliverer of that detail. They did show her in the office vaguely looking through a file as if she is keeping up appearances but maybe nobody is actually carrying her weight at the agency in that regard.

[scowl]

On 4/12/2018 at 8:24 AM, benteen said:

Elizabeth complains about American stuff but she loves her closet full of boots...

When the show started I was curious how they could keep their agents indoctrinated while they're in America. That was a problem with everyone the Soviets sent to the west. Many Soviets defected not on political grounds but instead because they enjoyed the higher quality of life.

Six seasons later it seems like P & E are on some vague "protect our country!" mission and have no belief in the communist system of the Soviet Union.

[jjj]

15 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I'm not terribly interested in the travel agency financials, but I thought it was telling that Stan expositioned to Renee (for our benefit really) that Elizabeth was off working with their corporate clients (as a way of explaining they're not exactly joined at the hip at work, like Renee wants to be with Stan). In his ra-ra speech to his staff, it sounded like Philip's motivation was really about selling to personal-travel customers, about things like where your cabin is on the cruise ship, etc. Maybe they're suggesting that the agency is struggling because she is not doing her part with corporate clients, while she is struggling because Philip is no longer her support in the field? Meaning they need each other in both directions? Although odd that Stan would be the deliverer of that detail. They did show her in the office vaguely looking through a file as if she is keeping up appearances but maybe nobody is actually carrying her weight at the agency in that regard.

No, it is a cover story for Stan that Elizabeth is disappearing to deal with corporate clients, and therefore on a very different schedule from Philip, an getting home very late in the evening.  They need this cover story, because neighbors notice these things when they live across the street.  Especially when the noticing person is an FBI agent.  Remember, in past years, when they had to disappear on missions, their cover story was that they were dealing with some big client or some tour that they needed to travel to.  I thought once or twice that Stan thought they were seriously neglecting their children, and that would get them caught.  Being a travel agent is actually a great job for this kind of cover story; of course travel agents have to travel!  I have no idea how they explain Elizabeth's lack of involvement at the office, but maybe she is doing office cameos like we saw this week:  show up, move the files around on her desk, then head out.   I get no sense that Philip expects her to do anything at the agency.  Travel agency. 

[Umbelina]

I think Elizabeth passionately believes in the communist cause, still.  Honestly, I think Philip is torn because even though he may feel the cause is just, the ideals are obviously not being realized and many of the Russian people are still suffering, in some ways, much more than they did under the Czar.

I think they both see some of the incompetency and Phil even sees the corruption, but they both know that many of the issues in the USSR were, and are being caused by the West, specifically the USA.

For Philip, it's a matter of practicality more now.  Things don't work there, but they do here.  For Elizabeth it's more idealistic, more of a "we are suffering now, but if we defeat the big bad (USA) we can help make things better there, and around the world."

It's hard to underestimate how terrifying the nuclear threat was, which is why this summit is so very important.  After all, as Elizabeth once said, only one country on earth has ever used the nukes.  She's, in my opinion, understandably concerned that could happen again, this time to her homeland.  She doesn't want to leave them defenseless, and that is the stated mission of the people, mostly KGB against Gorbochev, that she's now working for.

She doesn't trust the USA at all.  Philip doesn't either, but I think he's much less frightened of America after living here for so long, and certainly no longer as committed as Elizabeth in this Cold War.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Elizabeth passionately believes in the communist cause, still.  Honestly, I think Philip is torn because even though he may feel the cause is just, the ideals are obviously not being realized and many of the Russian people are still suffering, in some ways, much more than they did under the Czar.

I think they both see some of the incompetency and Phil even sees the corruption, but they both know that many of the issues in the USSR were, and are being caused by the West, specifically the USA.

For Philip, it's a matter of practicality more now.  Things don't work there, but they do here.  For Elizabeth it's more idealistic, more of a "we are suffering now, but if we defeat the big bad (USA) we can help make things better there, and around the world."

It's hard to underestimate how terrifying the nuclear threat was, which is why this summit is so very important.  After all, as Elizabeth once said, only one country on earth has ever used the nukes.  She's, in my opinion, understandably concerned that could happen again, this time to her homeland.  She doesn't want to leave them defenseless, and that is the stated mission of the people, mostly KGB against Gorbochev, that she's now working for.

She doesn't trust the USA at all.  Philip doesn't either, but I think he's much less frightened of America after living her for so long, and certainly no longer as committed as Elizabeth in this Cold War.

What issues in the USSR were being caused by the US?

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, scowl said:

Six seasons later it seems like P & E are on some vague "protect our country!" mission and have no belief in the communist system of the Soviet Union.

But Elizabeth has total belief in the communist system of the Soviet Union. She thinks America's trying to attack it.

Philip it seems has opened his eyes to the many flaws of how the country's working, enough, certainly, to assume Gorbachev's reforms are a needed. He's not afraid of the kind of changes he reads about in the papers. I don't think this means he no longer believes in the ideals, he just isn't an ideologue. He's more about people and real-world results.

It kind of goes back to the religion storyline. Elizabeth acts on faith. It doesn't matter what's happening now, she has faith that things will happen the way they're supposed to, just like a religious person would have faith that God still loved them and that they would be rewarded in Heaven no matter what happened on Earth. Philip doesn't act on faith. He's looking at stuff being done and the results. Elizabeth was more hostile to religion, but that's probably because she instinctively gets it. 

But I think they believe in their system much the way that, say, Stan believes in the US system. He, too, basically operates on a "protect our country" basis. But that's mostly because he doesn't have to think about it any more than most people have to think about the system in which they grew up. 

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She doesn't trust the USA at all.  Philip doesn't either, but I think he's much less frightened of America after living her for so long, and certainly no longer as committed as Elizabeth in this Cold War.

Yeah, they're both acting on the idea that nuclear weapons are a threat and that their own country is being made more vulnerable by people within it. Elizabeth has been told that Gorbachev is making foolish decisions and might be handing over the safety of the USSR to the USA, making her people defenseless. She has never wavered from her belief that there's nothing so low to which the USA won't stoop. They should never trust them--they dropped the bomb.

Philip sees the summit as a genuine negotiation between two parties who both see the value of having fewer nukes, with this the only way to do it. They have to trust each other to a certain extent, even if it's only based on mutually assured destruction. He's also been told that there's a faction within his country that doesn't want this to happen. This is coming after several missions where Philip saw with his own eyes the USSR misjudging (or quite possibly misjudging) the USA and doing the wrong thing in response. He has learned from personal experience that the USA is capable of acting out of better intentions. Doesn't mean they are always doing that by a longshot, but then, neither is the USSR.

It kind of goes back to In Control where Philip argues against the idea that there's a coup going on. Elizabeth accuses him of thinking that way because he thinks America is "good." Philip says no, he thinks that way because he has observed how things work there. 

[scrb]

Thing is there was a huge anti-nuclear movement at the time.  Not just missiles but nuclear plants, because I believe the Chernobyl disaster in '86 would be fresh in the minds of everyone in 1987 and Three Mile Island ('79) wasn't too distant a memory either.

The China Syndrome movie had a big cultural influence on Americans, as was The Day After in 1983.

You'd think being on the ground in America, Philip and even Elizabeth would be aware of how strong the push was from the American public for disarmament.  And the people going to huge demonstrations weren't doing so to try to get the Soviet bloc to disarm so that the US could sneak attack them either.

In fact, why wasn't the illegals program trying to aid in these demonstrations and recruit, as Philip and Elizabeth recruited disaffected African Americans in the aftermath of the civil rights movement?

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

What issues in the USSR were being caused by the US?

That would be a very long answer and would probably need to be in a new thread "the history between the USA and Russia, from the time of the revolution against the Czar to the dissolution of the USSR and beyond."

It began with the USA backed blockade of the fledgling Soviet Union, and followed a long and twisted path to present day The Americans where Star Wars defensive measures bankrupted them completely.

There isn't a "white hat" and "black hat" simplicity here.  Both countries have done some seriously bad shit.  Elizabeth sees only the bad the USA has done, Stan sees only the bad the USSR has done.  The truth is more complicated than that.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That would be a very long answer and would probably need to be in a new thread "the history between the USA and Russia, from the time of the revolution against the Czar to the dissolution of the USSR and beyond."

It began with the USA backed blockade of the fledgling Soviet Union, and followed a long and twisted path to present day The Americans where Star Wars defensive measures bankrupted them completely.

There isn't a "white hat" and "black hat" simplicity here.  Both countries have done some seriously bad shit.  Elizabeth sees only the bad the USA has done, Stan sees only the bad the USSR has done.  The truth is more complicated than that.

Well, sure, but that isn't remotely the same thing as an assertion that "many issues were caused by the USA". 

I really try to avoid political or historical debate in these threads, but that sort of extraordinarily broad assertion really kind of begs for it.

[Bannon]

47 minutes ago, scrb said:

Thing is there was a huge anti-nuclear movement at the time.  Not just missiles but nuclear plants, because I believe the Chernobyl disaster in '86 would be fresh in the minds of everyone in 1987 and Three Mile Island ('79) wasn't too distant a memory either.

The China Syndrome movie had a big cultural influence on Americans, as was The Day After in 1983.

You'd think being on the ground in America, Philip and even Elizabeth would be aware of how strong the push was from the American public for disarmament.  And the people going to huge demonstrations weren't doing so to try to get the Soviet bloc to disarm so that the US could sneak attack them either.

In fact, why wasn't the illegals program trying to aid in these demonstrations and recruit, as Philip and Elizabeth recruited disaffected African Americans in the aftermath of the civil rights movement?

I can't speak for the real life illegals program, but the KGB of course really was heavily involved in supporting the American disarmament movement. I really gave the writers credit for accurately noting, in the somewhat mismanaged Pastor Tim arc, that the World Council of Churches was for decades a Stalinist front. I agree it would have been a good move if the writers had also worked in a more prominent subplot about the KGB lending support to the American disarmament movement.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, scrb said:

You'd think being on the ground in America, Philip and even Elizabeth would be aware of how strong the push was from the American public for disarmament.  And the people going to huge demonstrations weren't doing so to try to get the Soviet bloc to disarm so that the US could sneak attack them either.

 

I think Elizabeth would appreciate the goals of those protesters, but assume the people in the government would do the same as she thinks her government should do--arm up and assume the other guy's cheating. Remember she was pleased when Paige wanted to go to a protest against nukes. She just didn't think it was really doing anything significant.

She is willing to allow that some Americans have the right ideas. They just all work for the KGB. The others are at best weak-minded and useless and at worse greedy with ill-intent.

[calpurnia99]

On 4/12/2018 at 9:28 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I kind of get throwing the food away as a precaution.  I mean, in case they are raided. Recall how the FBI strained the ice cubes at Martha's apt.  So, a full sweep for evidence likely would have picked up on the special Russian treat. 

It has less to do with someone finding the stew in their refrigerator and figuring out they are Russian than that this is breaking a rule that was drilled into them. The rule is they are not to have anything Russian in their house, period. 

There are so many laws and rules that in certain situations are ridiculous if you examined what would happen in a specific circumstance but "the rule is the rule"  so god forbid the law is broken. F. We run into this kind of thing every single day and I wish there was a term for it: when people are sticklers for a rule or regulation that had a basis when it was put into place, but in a particular circumstance, doesn't make any sense, yet it must be abided by. 

[AllyB]

2 minutes ago, calpurnia99 said:

We run into this kind of thing every single day and I wish there was a term for it: when people are sticklers for a rule or regulation that had a basis when it was put into place, but in a particular circumstance, doesn't make any sense, yet it must be abided by. 

There is, it's "chickenshit." It originated in WW2 by soldiers who were sick of bureaucratic rules on petty issues. It was like "bullshit" but about matters so small and triflingly insignificant that a much smaller animal needed to be referenced. Though in the last few decades it's come to just mean a more insulting way to say coward.

[sistermagpie]

It's not really bureaucracy though. The rule still has a point. Psychologically their home is not a place where they're Russian. Just like they don't speak it in private.  They have broken the rules. But not just to put leftovers in the fridge. 

It sounds paranoid but to me it's just excellence. The person who demands less of themselves is less excellent all around. They don't look for reasons to loosen up.

Paige would never be that careful probably.

[Pink-n-Green]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm enjoying the fact they're giving the actor a little more to do as Stavos, and I'd be happy if it ends up being significant at the end.

Funny you should mention Stavos!  I don't think in any way that this could possibly be a spoiler, but I'm going to hide it anyway...

Spoiler

Has anyone seen an eighties movie called "No Way Out"?  Kevin Costner played a deep cover Russian spy but, of course, through 99% of the movie we thought he was just an American naval officer.  His landlord was a grandfatherly guy with an accent.  Turns out at the end of the movie, when Costner was outed as a spy, it turned out that said landlord was his handler.  Ok, so Stavros is Greek and not Russian...or IS he??? :)

Yeah, probably a dumb idea.  But then, I'm also the one who thought they could send Paige to USNA and she could spy on weekends and holidays.

[anonymiss]

20 hours ago, scrb said:

Not only that, she chokes the guy to death, with those burly arms of hers.

IRL, he'd easily throw KR off of him or flip her over his head.

In the previous episode, she wrestles a bigger man for the gun.

I can buy that she would know advanced fighting techniques, be quicker and more decisive in delivering blows.

Maybe because I am used to seeing women Elizabeth's weight class executing submissions like rear-naked chokes in mixed martial arts, this doesn't strain my credulity more than...say, mousy Paige wanting to be a spy or being taken seriously as a recruit. Submissions like in jujitsu are most effective when you have the element of surprise like she tends to and when you have the proper technique they can incapacitate someone who isn't able to defend (either because of lack of knowledge or lack of being ready because of the element of surprise) in a matter of seconds.

Edited April 14, 2018 by anonymiss

[wellread]

Some people wonder how Henry is doing academically at his prep school.  When he is talking to Philip, Henry says that he has to go study for his AP CALC exam.  If he is taking Advanced Placement Calculus as a junior, for which he can earn college credit, Henry is doing quite well academically.

[Sarah 103]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:16 PM, Tetraneutron said:

They FINALLY  addressed that in the show. That Paige has to be familiar with the stuff Elizabeth does and be OK with it. Even if she won't be doing that herself. Although you would think if the job is to get Paige secured in a high-ranking state department job, you would think they'd want her to study and make friends at Georgetown. 

Agreed on every level. Instead of learning to cook Russian food she should be hanging out with peers/classmates at local hangouts or on campus. In a few decades those classmates are going to have important roles in politics, government, and other careers that would make them good sources for information. 

On 4/11/2018 at 11:27 PM, chocolatine said:

The opening scene of Elizabeth washing the general's blood off her face had a Lady Macbeth quality about it - "out, damned spot!"

I had the exact same thought. 

On 4/11/2018 at 11:31 PM, Sader87 said:

Wouldn't Henry be a better potential asset to the Soviets down the line....ingratiating himself in American power circles etc by going to an elite prep school than Paige is? Just sayin'

I've thought since Henry saved himself and Paige from the hitchhiker, snuck into a neighbor's house to play video-games, and is now becoming freinds with the next generation of leaders. Henry is a better all around spy. Years ago someone here made a comparison to Godfather which works even better now. Henry is Michael. He never wanted that life, his parents never wanted that life for him, but we know from very early on in the story he would be amazing at it. 

On 4/12/2018 at 2:23 AM, tennisgurl said:

I really just want the show to know something. If Oleg gets killed off, I would scream. A lot. At you. I will find you, and I will yell at you. Really, his story is the best one as of now, and I want to see more of it. But, without shooting. Can you do that for me? Please? I think we`ve known each other long enough that I can ask a favor of you.

If that happens and I really hope it doesn't before you go yell at people, let me know the time and place. I'll be right there with you. Oleg is one of the best things about this show. 

On 4/12/2018 at 10:55 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I am not sure he truly understands how to run a business much less a successful one without the backing of the KGB.    This is the guy who gave freebies to his friend to keep him on  the hook. He passes off big accounts to his underlings because it is probably what he has always done because his “other job” came first.  Philip likes the trappings of capitalism but not the work.  

 

On 4/12/2018 at 11:16 AM, RedHawk said:

I’ve always assumed that the travel agency operated completely above board, maybe with beginning funding very indirectly from the KGB but afterward having no illicit connections whatsoever.

I'm not sure how much KGB backing the travel agency had. Although if the business was struggling there are probably some deep cover Soviet linked groups the Centre could send to the travel agency. 

On 4/12/2018 at 3:35 PM, RedHawk said:

This season we've been shown that he's a skilled hockey player, maybe a team star, and that some of his female fellow students dig him. We haven't heard anything about his academic performance, right? We still don't know if he maintained his interest in math (and computers) and has excelled in his studies or if he happily settled into being a popular student with a respectable B average he hasn't had to work very hard for.

At a private school you have to work hard to get good grades unless you are incredibly smart.  

On 4/12/2018 at 3:42 PM, jjj said:

I'm surprised they are not paying for Henry's school, as another potential second-gen recruit.  I mean, that is The Plan that Gabriel told E/P. 

 

On 4/12/2018 at 4:11 PM, benteen said:

Despite the KGB's lack of interest in him, you would think both they and Philip and Elizabeth would want keep Henry in that school.  It was noted that congressmen and businessmen sent their kids to it, which could open up all new avenues for them.  They would definitely provide Philip with the money.  But again, Henry had a scholarship. 

If the Centre found out, I am sure they would be willing to send some legal above board business to the agency to keep it afloat and Henry in the private school, not just for long term reasons. Just think about all of the information Philip could get at Parents' weekend, sporting events, and any other activity that involves parents interacting with each other. Philip might wonder about the sudden uptick in business but I am sure the Centre would be very careful and cover thier tracks. 

On 4/12/2018 at 4:02 PM, shura said:

Regarding sports teams in private schools, I saw our local middle school basketball team play a team from a private school this winter. We trounced them, they were pretty terrible (although some of their players were "stars" on that team, of course). And I got to wonder how the whole thing works in private schools.

I can't answer about boarding schools, but I would imagine it is fairly similar to the day school I went to. Private schools have fewer people, which means a smaller pool to draw from when picking athletes for teams. A student who at a public school might not make the team, may very well make the team at a private school. 

On 4/12/2018 at 9:11 PM, TVbitch said:

But I would prefer he grab Henry and run. 

Philip can now be part of my hypothetical spin-off with Henry, Stan, and Oleg. Philip is so good with disguides and covers, he could be the inside man, like Face from A-Team. 

[Mr. R0b0t]

On 4/12/2018 at 3:25 PM, jjj said:

That little smile of Oleg was everything.  Best seduction in the entire series.

Let's give credit where credit is due... Nina RIP.

[Darrenbrett]

I enjoyed this week's episode. A couple thoughts:

While I've argued that E has a real idealogical commitment to socialism, in this week's episode she was definitely showing some knee-jerk anti-Americanism that was more visceral than idealogical. I thought that was an interesting play by the writers. First, because people are never truly ONLY motivated by "pure" ideology. And secondly, because it showed P that E is not very likely to be reasoned with -- for the very reasons I just described: her anti-Americanism has become an emotional, non-negotiable disposition/commitment, not a conclusion drawn from a reasoned outlook on the present situation. Thirdly, I've seen people shift like this. They begin their activism with well-reasoned idealogical concerns, and then end up shadows of themselves: clinging to a one-dimensional perspective simply because they've already "picked a side". Elizabeth's Soviet story is her Prrreciousss!!! She's not giving it up. And yes, it's making her difficult to like as much. She's becoming a shell of a human being. Harder to like, but fascinating nevertheless! In terms of the end game, is suicide (or at least the commitment to an obviously suicidal future mission) her only way out? I'm beginning to think so. I'd put the odds of that happening at about 50% at this point.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Darrenbrett

[scrb]

2 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

I enjoyed this week's episode. A couple thoughts:

While I've argued that E has a real idealogical commitment to socialism, in this week's episode she was definitely showing some knee-jerk anti-Americanism that was more visceral than idealogical. I thought that was interesting play by the writers. First, because people are never truly ONLY motivated by "pure" ideology. And secondly, because it showed P that E is not very likely to be reasoned with -- for the very reasons I just described: her anti-Americanism has become an emotional, non-negotiable disposition/commitment, not a conclusion drawn from a reasoned outlook on the present situation. Thirdly, I've seen people shift like this. They begin their activism with well-reasoned idealogical concerns, and then end up shadows of themselves: clinging to a one-dimensional perspective simply because they've already "picked a side". Elizabeth's Soviet story is her Prrreciousss!!! She's not giving it up. And yes, it's making her difficult to like as much. She's becoming a shell of a human being. Harder to like, but fascinating nevertheless! In terms of the end game, is suicide (or at least the commitment to an obviously suicidal future mission) her only way out? I'm beginning to think so. I'd put the odds of that happening at about 50% at this point.

Yeah we see that now, the tribalism by a certain segment of the American populace.

[jjj]

3 hours ago, Mr. R0b0t said:

Let's give credit where credit is due... Nina RIP.

I stand corrected.  

Edited April 14, 2018 by jjj

[AllyB]

5 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

in this week's episode she was definitely showing some knee-jerk anti-Americanism that was more visceral than idealogical.

I wonder if her special Russian evenings with Claudia and Paige are doing Elizabeth a lot of harm. Stirring up in her a lot of nostalgia for a time and place she was more innocent in. Making her resentful of the 'need' to leave home and go to the US. She hates the US more than ever for 'making' her be there, for being responsible for the fact that she has to teach her child to be Russian instead of her children just being Russian because that's where they grew up. She's looking at the luxury and the stuff she has in America and resenting it more than ever because what does stuff matter when it comes at the price of true connection to her children. She's not consciously quite aware of it, but she described her hatred of America to Philip in the context of leaving her cosy Russian evenings and going back to her American life.

And to add to that, she has actually had contact with people from home in the last few days. She may not have spoken to them but she ensured she could hear the entire conversation between Glenn and the other delegates. The Russians were happy to be in America. Happy to partake in banter about food and sports. Some of the Russians spoke of their enjoyment of the Canada Cup despite Russia's defeat because of their enjoyment of Wayne Gretzky. (And while Gretzky has Russian ancestry it is that of a Czarist family.) They were open to learning more about baseball and happy to learn about and eat different kinds of pizza. I don't think it was a coincidence that the writers chose for Philip to mention Pizza Hut opening in Russia when Elizabeth had recently been witness to the Russian delegates enjoying pizza.

From what Elizabeth has first hand knowledge of, Russians from back home do in fact want to adopt some American lifestyle choices. But she has also been told by another Russian from back home that these people are traitors. So that coupled with seeing these delegates (as she sees it) reject the parts of home that she yearns for, it has created a massive contempt in her for everything American. She can see this growing possibility that Russia is going to become westernised and that's becoming her nightmare because it means she can never, ever go home because her Russia will no longer be the home she remembers.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, scrb said:

Yeah we see that now, the tribalism by a certain segment of the American populace.

As much as I agree with that observation, from what I've seen, heard, and read, that segment has triggered a reciprocal hardened position on the opposite side and a similar tendency by some to believe what suits their world view. This is not a sudden thing. It has been building for years. Nuanced discussions have given way to sound bite, talking point attacks. And yet, I believe we all love our country. But tend to think the other side does not because of x, y, and z.

I don't know much about the period of Glasnost in Russia, but I imagine there were similar divisions- if not as open - amongst the regular people, not just the people in power. Elizabeth and Phillip are on those two divides. Seeing different futures for the country they both love and sacrifice for. That's a terrible place to be, in terms of a relationship - even a common everyday one without the huge stakes. I don't see the ending of this being anything but a weep fest. And, oddly, I'm looking forward to it.

[jjj]

Maybe there will be multiple versions of "rip-the-mask-off" at the end. My main candidate had been Renee, but now I'm adding Henry and Stavos as submerged characters who might burst to the surface in the final scenes.  I have to think anyone getting regular air time right now could become significant in a new way in a few weeks.  

[Miles]

On 12.4.2018 at 5:46 AM, sistermagpie said:

These days when Elizabeth meets somebody I just assume he'll be her next victim. Here's a big, young guy. She'll have no trouble killing him with her tiny bare hands, I'm sure. [...]

Yup, there we go. She just had to literally jump up off the floor a little bit to get her arm around his neck. Even in the panic of his death thoes the guy had no instinct to even to twist his body in any inconvenient way.

I thought that stretched credibility a bit far and with a bit I mean to the point of breaking.

I know she has all that awesome spy training, but what is she, 55kg soaking wet? That guy on the other hand was massive and he didn't go down immediatly. I get he was surprised, but still, after a few seconds of somebody choking you, don't you just bodyslam them into the floor, especially when you have so much weight on them?

I could have easily bought it if she had taken out a knife and stabbed him in the back a few times. But strangeling him? Come on. Who filmed this and thought it made sense?

 

On 12.4.2018 at 5:03 AM, CaliCheeseSucks said:

And Stan's wife waits three years to make her sketchy (to suspicious viewers, who've suspected her of being a mole/spy from the outset), "I wish I did something that made me proud to be an American - say, can I join the FBI?" play. Uh, okay.

I mean if she is a spy she would never pass the backgroundcheck. But she might have known about the age limit for new recruits and is trying to work "her disappointment" to get a lower grade government job or at least to get Stan to open up more.

Or she is just a normal american who hates her jorb.

 

On 12.4.2018 at 5:57 AM, jjj said:

Philip, if you want to know the moment your marriage stopped having any chance of recovering, it was the moment you declined to eat the stew that Elizabeth carried back in a drippy container in her good handbag and presented to you so shyly and proudly.  Then she looked at you with such hope in her eyes when you came over and took ONE BITE.  It was not really stew, Philip, it was a plastic container of the last chance at love. 

I mean that's nice and all, but he had just eaten a ton of chinese food. There are biological limits. I doubt it would have been very romantic had he eaten it and immediatly thrown up. The one bite was a nice enough gesture.

 

On 12.4.2018 at 8:54 AM, Umbelina said:

I never EVER bought that the KGB would let Philip "retire" without being dead, and I still don't.  That's the most unbelievable part of all of this for me, really.  Philip and the Pastor couple?   Would all be dead.  Period.

Eh, they think Paige is their next big asset. A second generation american who can deeply infiltrate the government. I'm sure they wouldn't risk that by killing her father. The pastor couple, who knows what happened to them after they left...

 

On 12.4.2018 at 2:44 PM, Bannon said:

Again, it is just dumb to portray a dish, made with diced beef, vegetables, garlic, and herbs, as being a signifier of Russian heritage, and thus forbidden from the Jennings' fridge. Millions of Americans have this oh-so-exotic peasant food all the time, except they call it "beef stew".  I made it last week, yet managed to avoid being compelled to engage in Russian folk dance afterwords (face palm).

That is exactly what a russian spy would say...

Edited April 14, 2018 by Miles

[adam807]

Bless you for posting the link to the recipe. I want to make it right now!

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, wellread said:

If he is taking Advanced Placement Calculus as a junior, for which he can earn college credit, Henry is doing quite well academically.

Henry's talent for math was what triggered Philip and Elizabeth being called in to the principal's office at his local school, remember? They were all shocked he was gifted.

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

She may not have spoken to them but she ensured she could hear the entire conversation between Glenn and the other delegates.

Watching Elizabeth eat a slice of pizza while eavesdropping was everything.

29 minutes ago, Miles said:

I know she has all that awesome spy training, but what is she, 55kg soaking wet? That guy on the other hand was massive and he didn't go down immediatly. I get he was surprised, but still, after a few seconds of somebody choking you, don't you just bodyslam them into the floor, especially when you have so much weight on them?

I could have easily bought it if she had taken out a knife and stabbed him in the back a few times. But strangeling him? Come on. Who filmed this and thought it made sense?

I bought it. Elizabeth is a highly trained and highly experienced spy. She's killed before. Many times. That alone gives her an advantage. The guy was caught by surprise and from behind. It's easy to watch that and think he should have fought back harder, but fight-or-flight doesn't always kick in at the right time.

[Miles]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

I bought it. Elizabeth is a highly trained and highly experienced spy. She's killed before. Many times. That alone gives her an advantage. The guy was caught by surprise and from behind. It's easy to watch that and think he should have fought back harder, but fight-or-flight doesn't always kick in at the right time.

Hollywood movies and TV shows with kickass heroins make people seriously overestimate what people can do when there is a significant weight and strength difference, no matter how well they are trained. Usually I give it quite a bit of leeway, but this was just ridiculous. I doubt she could have even gotten enough leverage to choke him effectively. Not to mention his fight or flight instinct, which you correctly named, but of which he did neither. He didn't try to run and he didn't try to fight back. He just let himself get murdered.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

I wonder if her special Russian evenings with Claudia and Paige are doing Elizabeth a lot of harm. Stirring up in her a lot of nostalgia for a time and place she was more innocent in. Making her resentful of the 'need' to leave home and go to the US. She hates the US more than ever for 'making' her be there, for being responsible for the fact that she has to teach her child to be Russian instead of her children just being Russian because that's where they grew up.

Although what's ironic about that is that it's only because Paige is American that Elizabeth is able to control the Russian narrative so completely. If Paige was a Russian she'd be part of the younger generation and quite possibly be more like those kids Philip referred to. Even if she still devoted herself to being her mother's mini-me she still wouldn't be some blank slate where she saw a Russia that only existed in Elizabeth's childhood. Remember when Paige was 13 she used to have her own opinions and express them even when they disagreed with her mother's. Maybe it comes back to that clip they keep showing, where Philip says they deserve to have a life and Elizabeth says, "I can't." She doesn't have a life, so she's not really experiencing the passing of time as life. 

10 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

While I've argued that E has a real idealogical commitment to socialism, in this week's episode she was definitely showing some knee-jerk anti-Americanism that was more visceral than idealogical. I thought that was an interesting play by the writers. First, because people are never truly ONLY motivated by "pure" ideology. And secondly, because it showed P that E is not very likely to be reasoned with -- for the very reasons I just described: her anti-Americanism has become an emotional, non-negotiable disposition/commitment, not a conclusion drawn from a reasoned outlook on the present situation.

Yeah, I thought that was a great moment showing how much she's calcified. She has to make America as bad as possible due to her own bitterness. And she seems unaware that she can't really hate all things American without hating her previous life and her children--and not just all-American Henry.

Then there's the even sadder fact that even Elizabeth's longing for the old country is probably put on without her realizing it. I believe there's some real nostalgia, but even if Russia wasn't thinking of Pizza Hut she no longer has any family there. She's no longer 12. Everyone has nostalgia for their childhood,but that's not the same thing as wanting to live in the USSR. It would be the same if she was longing to live in 1960s USA in 1987. No place is the same. The country of her childhood doesn't exist and it's not because of Westernization or America winning the Cold War.

Quote

 

I bought it. Elizabeth is a highly trained and highly experienced spy. She's killed before. Many times. That alone gives her an advantage. The guy was caught by surprise and from behind. It's easy to watch that and think he should have fought back harder, but fight-or-flight doesn't always kick in at the right time.

 

In some ways that's part of the problem, because Elizabeth never ever has a problem killing anybody. Watching stuff like that in movies always makes it look easy in just this way, but in real life so many things can go wrong. I remember reading that Son of Sam originally tried to stab a woman and it's harder than he thought. That was a first time experience, but even with experience realistically stuff should go wrong. With Elizabeth it never does. It can't ever really be a struggle because she usually ought to lose that struggle. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 

 

In some ways that's part of the problem, because Elizabeth never ever has a problem killing anybody. Watching stuff like that in movies always makes it look easy in just this way, but in real life so many things can go wrong. I remember reading that Son of Sam originally tried to stab a woman and it's harder than he thought. That was a first time experience, but even with experience realistically stuff should go wrong. With Elizabeth it never does. It can't ever really be a struggle because she usually ought to lose that struggle. 

If she does end up getting captured or killed, fer' the love of physics, I hope it happens when she tries to put the muscle on some 200 pound guy, like a former hockey player who is the father of one of Henry's teammates, and he just chuckles, and turns her lights out with one punch.

[magemaud]

While we were watching the episode and Elizabeth was grilling  the warehouse guy, I said to my husband, “hmmm, less than five minutes left. He’s a dead man!” 

Edited April 14, 2018 by magemaud

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, Miles said:

I could have easily bought it if she had taken out a knife and stabbed him in the back a few times. But strangeling him? Come on. Who filmed this and thought it made sense?

It couldn't be a stabbing, though, because the symbolism of the kill required it to be intimate but tender. She was dancing him to the end of love.

Even casting someone less stocky, as someone suggested earlier, might be tricky. Would Liz hanging off the back of some little shrimpy guy still read as a romantic embrace with her in the feminine role? The whole point was to show her, essentially, strangling her own marriage, killing Evan because she's given up on the idea that you can trust a loving couple to keep their secrets between them. (As Philip proves her right by going off to share what she told him with Oleg.)