Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[calliope1975]

I watch with my friend/co-worker during lunch (who I pleaded with to watch this show). He told me today the only reason he's still watching is Felicity. And he always comments on how much of a dick Oliver is to everyone. We watched "The Calm" yesterday. His comments were that Diggle's arms are gigantic, it's stupid that Roy is suddenly a ninja, Oliver was a jerk to Felicity, and he really liked EBR in the boob window dress. He wasn't a huge Sara fan but does not like Laurel and thinks it'll be idiotic if Laurel becomes Insta!Canary. He brought up how both Oliver and Sara have had years and years of training. He doesn't seek out spoilers but reads them if I forward them and doesn't go on any message boards. Just a casual viewer.  

[BkWurm1]

She appears to be dead but is really only mostly dead.

 

We could really use a Miracle Max in Starling City.  :(

 

I kept up with spoilers up until about a week before the season opener but have been mostly spoiler free since then.  I've read the occasional cast or producer interview but those things are so packed with speculation and overhyped moments that I don't know if the count. 

 

I'm mostly still aware of what crossover episodes are coming and at one point I knew which episodes featured which characters but I've forgotten almost all of that.  (Except for the Felicity one) So I'm feeling kind of unspoiled.  Chances are I'll cave during the winter hiatus but for now all I can do is speculate...and worry...and hope...and dread. 

 

I originally thought that this would be the season where Oliver would figure out he can work to seek a balance between being the Arrow and Oliver but now I'm convinced it's too early for him to figure that out and am really leaning toward him trying to walk away cold at the end of the season and give up being Arrow.  Then season four would be him realizing he needs to be Arrow too and would be him trying to find balance.

 

Yes it's contrived but this show doesn't do subtle very well.   

 

In regards to the idea that Laurel dresses up as Canary to fool her father and make him think Sara is still alive, that idea popped into my head too.  Just Laurel not telling her dad seems telling, though maybe it's to keep Quentin from stealing Laurel's thunder.  A sister's grief and anger would not measure against what her father would feel. 

[statsgirl]

In regards to the idea that Laurel dresses up as Canary to fool her father and make him think Sara is still alive, that idea popped into my head too.  Just Laurel not telling her dad seems telling, though maybe it's to keep Quentin from stealing Laurel's thunder.  A sister's grief and anger would not measure against what her father would feel. 

I wouldn't put it past  her, but that's because I don't like the character.  Not telling her father  because he would steal her thunder is pretty small.  Maybe she didn't tell him because she didn't want Sara to steal her thunder again?

[foreverevolving]

But wouldn't Lance be able to tell the difference?! that's not Sara under the mask?

I mean the lips alone, and the body shape too, the height difference (i think CL is shorter).

 

I mean the guy was able to put 2+2=woman in black is sara. (I have hope he has done the same with Arrow/Oliver)

[Password]

I also think Oliver's journey has really only just begun. He's so unprepared for what he wants, he has to learn or unlearn his bad habits and make some hard choices. The more I watch the more I feel he needs this season and probably next before he and Felicity can get together. I don't want it to feel rushed, I fear they will. But I'm holding out for a real growth season for him.

 

Look I really don't care about Laurel's mission or journey. I'll just leave it at that.

[tv echo]

I think the viewers will be expected to handwave a lot of the training.  We've already seen how proficient Roy has become (esp. shooting arrows) after only several months' training.  Then at the end of the last episode, we saw Thea looking pretty good fighting after only five months' training.  Inevitably, we'll see Laurel taking some boxing lessons and then becoming battle-ready.  So what if Oliver had five years of training and Sara was trained by the LOA.  The EPs don't seem to care.  They probably believe that all viewers want to see are costumed super-heroes fighting bad guys, and all will be forgiven.

[AustenChick]

Since this is the hopes and fears thread -- here's my fear -- because of the Oliver/Felicity scene -- does that mean we're about to get a bunch of episodes where they're not connecting even as friends? Because that would be a bummer.

[ohjoy]

From the 3.02 episode thread:

 

So, I'm going to go ahead and call Sara's killer as Tommy for one very simple reason: he was in this episode.

The killer has to be someone we know, because Voice Changer. That means it is either a dead person or a person we'd be shocked was evil. They also obviously have to be an archer. I also believe we're to believe Oliver is correct that it isn't the LoA, who would only kill her if she was trying to leave again, and wouldn't do it secretly anyway. They have to be someone known to Sara. They also have to be someone Sara is surprised to see, but not shocked to see. And, crucially, they have to be *established*.

A new viewer has to be shown who they are, and if they aren't already on the show that means they have to be put on the table and explained so the eventual reveal is set up. It was nice to see Tommy, but what purpose did that really serve? He fits or can be made to fit all the requirements pretty easily, except Sara not being shocked. However...Sara has many secrets. It is not outside the realm of possibility that she would keep that sort of info to herself if she thought it best. There has always been, and continues to be, an awful lot of folks on this show deciding for others what info they are allowed to have, for their own good.

There would also have to be motive, but motive has to be addressed regardless.

I saw this and suddenly had a vision of Tommy

showing up in present day at the end of this season a la Batman's Jason Todd/Red Hood

, thus setting up Colin Donnell's return as a season regular for the 4th season as an antihero. And now I want that. Desperately.

[Danny Franks]

It'd be kind of funny if the show did resurrect Tommy, after already resurrecting Merlyn. Because then we could conclude that only women really die for good on the show. That'd be a wonderful message to send.

[KirkB]

It'd be kind of funny if the show did resurrect Tommy, after already resurrecting Merlyn. Because then we could conclude that only women really die for good on the show. That'd be a wonderful message to send.

 

Good point. Then if it wasn't Talia al Ghul (who is still my first choice) I'm going to say it was Shado.

[BkWurm1]

I wouldn't put it past her, but that's because I don't like the character. Not telling her father because he would steal her thunder is pretty small. Maybe she didn't tell him because she didn't want Sara to steal her thunder again?

I meant more in a meta sense than actually on screen but this IS Laurel. Who knows. ;)

But wouldn't Lance be able to tell the difference?! that's not Sara under the mask?

I mean the lips alone, and the body shape too, the height difference (i think CL is shorter).

I mean the guy was able to put 2+2=woman in black is sara. (I have hope he has done the same with Arrow/Oliver)

From a distance, woman in black, long flowing blond hair plus the show pushing a silly contrivance, yeah, I can see it happening. All he would get is a fleeting sighting if for some reason they can come up with a reason why he would need one.

In Batman, The Animated Series, that's Batgirl's origin story. Her dad gets framed and she thinks it would make a difference in public opinion if Batman made an appearance at some rally but of course he's too busy working the case so she dresses up as him in the hopes the crowd will from a distance mistake her for Bats. (Insert bad guys, Harvey Dent's origin story, a ripped cape and Batgirl made her debut)

The killer has to be someone we know, because Voice Changer. That means it is either a dead person or a person we'd be shocked was evil.

We might not have yet been introduced to this person yet, but will, so the voice changer would still have been needed.

I honestly am having a hard time caring about the big mystery since I doubt it's anyone I care about. It's not going to be Quentin or anyone on Team Arrow. She wouldn't have reacted that way to Sin nor would Sin have those skills or the desire to hurt Sara. It's not going to be Nyssa just because I don't think they would go there after she had her chance but didn't take it. It's not going to be Ray Palmer because he has his own world he inhabits and I have a hard time seeing him cross over as an arrow wielding assassin. Everyone else we know was either out of country or dead.

Well, Malcolm might not have an alibi but that or Ra's Al Guhl would be too easy and obvious so I'm going to rule them out.

So in the end, I don't care about the killer. And if I'm wrong and it is someone on the list from above, well I think that's illogical and it will only annoy me so I still won't so much care as be even more ticked off that Sara was killed for this nonsense.

[statsgirl]

It could be Tommy from the Lazarus Pit but she would have reacted more startled than that because she knew Tommy was dead.

 

It could be Roy suffering mirakuru after-effects because her voice was kind of 'hey, what are you doing up here?' but if they do that, if they trash both Sara and Roy to get Laurel in those fishnets, I'm going to be really angry.

 

As soon as Oliver said the LoA doesn't kill their own, that meant it probably is.

 

Basically the EPs have set the bar incredibly high to make this mystery work out well enough to justify killing off Sara.

[Danny Franks]

But does it even matter which character was used to kill Sara? We already know that it was done just so the writers can shove Laurel into the role of Black Canary. Trying to figure out who fired the arrows is like trying to figure out what sort of gun was used to shoot someone.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Danny Franks

[pootlus]

We could really use a Miracle Max in Starling City.  :(

 

Suspect Laurel already 'went through (her) pockets and looked for loose change' while she was dragging the body (by the hair) to the Arrowcave.

 

As an unspoiled viewer, I have nfi where this season is going. Presumably at some point Laurel will be insta-whammied into Fakanary and Felicity and Oliver will get back together again after Oliver sees Felicity flirting/being friends with Ray and realises what a monumental moron he's being.

 

Other than that, I got nothin.

[Pothunter]

Hopes: I'd like the show to do an episode along the lines of  Farscape's 'Out of Their Minds', or better yet, 'Liars, Guns and Money.' David Kemper needs to be a writer on this show. I miss Farscape.

 

Fears: I feel that there is a more than 50% possibility that Olicity won't be end game. This is based entirely on my cynical outlook and the direction the show seems to be taking. In the meantime, reading is my first love so I am immersed in the fanfic pool.

[Danny Franks]

 

As an unspoiled viewer, I have nfi where this season is going. Presumably at some point Laurel will be insta-whammied into Fakanary and Felicity and Oliver will get back together again after Oliver sees Felicity flirting/being friends with Ray and realises what a monumental moron he's being.

 

 

Doubt that happens until the end of the season. They'll drag the 'will they, won't they' out for as long as possible, and my guess is that the mid-season break is where Oliver finds out that Felicity has fallen for 50 Shades of Ray (thanks, io9). Plenty of time for angst and manpain and Oliver being self destructive to try and get Felicity's attention. All that mature stuff that guys on TV do.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Been reading the stuff over on the Bitterness thread about Laurel and I'm really starting to wonder whether "superhero" really is her trajectory. It may be Black Canary, but with Arrow showing at almost every turn how Laurel isn't quite good and honorable and is more than willing to use shady means to get what she wants, I wonder if she's being set up to be a bad guy (girl) instead. That would be more effective for the character, I think, and something KC would be able to pull off.

[KirkB]

At one point I could have easily seen Laurel going the Helena route. Not trying to kill her father, of course, but driven a little mad by the death of loved ones (Oliver and Sara on the Gambit) she gives into her inner darkness and starts taking it out on people she thinks deserves it, regardless of whether or not they actually did anything wrong. She could have already been a somewhat skilled fighter, pseudo-vigilante before Oliver got back, and the Hood's antics inspire her to up her game. Then the two of them meet, argue, fight, and eventually she sees the error of her ways. They could make her the Black Canary after that (although I still don't see this Laurel choosing as weak an animal name as a canary) or give her some new identity and bring Sara back as the Canary. But the EP's have made it pretty evident in their interviews that they see her as a hero and a good-doer, even if weirdly they don't SHOW her that way.

[Password]

Doubt that happens until the end of the season. They'll drag the 'will they, won't they' out for as long as possible, and my guess is that the mid-season break is where Oliver finds out that Felicity has fallen for 50 Shades of Ray (thanks, io9). Plenty of time for angst and manpain and Oliver being self destructive to try and get Felicity's attention. All that mature stuff that guys on TV do.

I've taken to calling him Mr. Smarms in my head but 50 shades of Ray works well too. I'm practically annoyed that the story so far seems fairly predictable. If they surprise me I'd slow clap.

[dtissagirl]

But the EP's have made it pretty evident in their interviews that they see her as a hero and a good-doer, even if weirdly they don't SHOW her that way.

 

Yeah. I have the [awful] feeling that they're going with a let's dump all the crappy things on Laurel's head so the audience can sympathize with her via pity. Since they tend to write Laurel more as reactive than active, they killed Sara, Quentin is apparently one piece of bad news away from his heart giving up on him, and in 3x02 they set Laurel up as someone ineffective in in bringing Sara's killer to justice due to the limits of her current skill set.

 

I'm afraid we're supposed to feel "aw, poor Laurel" feelings, and then directly correlate those feelings to Laurel's reaction being REVENGE!!!, because we're supposed to see that as her last resort.

 

And on paper that's probably not a bad plan, even, but in reality I can see the audience not falling for that trap. The writing is clearly going for emotional resonance here. But I'm not sure they ARE able to manipulate the audience into the correct emotional response -- which right now seems to be pity/sympathy. Because the inconsistent writing and subpar acting of the past two seasons -- on top of the resentment for losing Sara -- might just be bigger triggers for emotional reaction re: Laurel than what's actually on screen.

Edited October 17, 2014 by dancingnancy

[tv echo]

And if the EPs ever remember that Laurel still has a mother living in Central City, there'll probably be a throwaway line about Dinah Lance re-marrying and essentially abandoning Quentin and Laurel (even though that would be out of character for Dinah as portrayed in the show so far)...

Edited October 17, 2014 by tv echo

[SonofaBiscuit]

Gosh, I hope that Sara's murderer doesn't end up being resurrected Tommy.  I wasn't a Tommy fan, but I didn't actively hate the guy as I do Laurel.  But if he was resurrected so that he could kill Sara so that Laurel could become BC...well, I probably will start hating the guy. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

But the EP's have made it pretty evident in their interviews that they see her as a hero and a good-doer, even if weirdly they don't SHOW her that way.

 

Hmmm, so wishful thinking on my part then. *sigh* Because nothing they are showing us about her makes any sense for a good-doer and hero.

[Chaser]

Laurel has gotten the female lead CW treatment tenfold. For some reason whenever there is a perception problem with the female lead they pile on the pain. They try to kick her when she is down, hoping to garner sympathy with the audience and to be able to wax poetry about the character's strength. The problem with this, is that it becomes a cycle of making her a victim. And the character ends up drowning in it. Instead of the audience feeling for her, they start roll their eyes and point to supporting characters that go through pain but find a way to move on because they have too (and the airtime is never there for them). On almost every CW show, its the supporting female characters that are fan-favorites.

 

I can certainly see the EPs doing this with Laurel. Expect them to go out of their way to put Laurel in pain(by outside forces and 'friends') and have all the characters praising her for strength and grace. 

[Sakura12]

What is Laurel's excuse for not telling her mother? Is it she's too far away? 

 

Quentin will probably be dying this season, because once Sara's killer is caught Laurel will need another reason to keep being a hero. Since she can't have her own reason. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by Sakura12

[catrox14]

From the 3.02 episode thread:

 

I saw this and suddenly had a vision of Tommy

showing up in present day at the end of this season a la Batman's Jason Todd/Red Hood

, thus setting up Colin Donnell's return as a season regular for the 4th season as an antihero. And now I want that. Desperately.

 

If

anyone other than Jensen Ackles is the Red Hood I will spit nails, unless of course that makes way for Jensen to be Batman when he quits SPN...so conflicted. 

I want Tommy back but not as a villain. We need one person who doesn't want to be a villain or a hero. Just a good guy. That guy was Tommy. I want THAT Tommy back.

[ohjoy]

If

anyone other than Jensen Ackles is the Red Hood I will spit nails, unless of course that makes way for Jensen to be Batman when he quits SPN...so conflicted. 

I want Tommy back but not as a villain. We need one person who doesn't want to be a villain or a hero. Just a good guy. That guy was Tommy. I want THAT Tommy back.

Hee -- catrox14, I don't necessarily mean that I want Tommy

to really be Red Hood

, I just wouldn't necessarily mind if it turned out that Malcom tried to use the Lazarus Pits on him as well

, and unbeknownst to everybody it brought him back psycho and now he's just sort of indiscriminately killing off those he feels should have known better than to let that happen, until somebody figures out how to set his brain right again. So maybe I mean something more akin to The Winter Soldier. But ITA -- Jensen Ackles is the only true Red Hood I wanna see

.

 

And also, I too want THAT Tommy back. But at this point, I'll take just about any Tommy. Or really anyone that might be "crazy" enough to blame Laurel for his/her death and deal with her accordingly.

[fantique]

Just basing this on a hunch... I think for at least episodes 1-9, I think the Arrow team will be more divided than we've seen before. I think Felicity will routinely come help but not devote all her time as before, I hope there is still great story telling for her personal arc but I think Olicity will be growing further apart/put to rest (which I don't mind because to me Felicity is more important than Olicity). Diggle being a father will automatically detract him from being team arrow all day every day. Roy will be distracted by Thea's return and their issues with each other. Oliver is going to be stuck because now he knows that being the Arrow is not all he wants to be. Problem is he already made clear that "he made his choice" so trying to get on the path to being happy. It seems everyone's options and motivations are pointing them outside of the team which is interesting because my guess is in the back half it will be about the team being re-established, possibly with Laurel there as a member (*cringe*, I know...)

[SonofaBiscuit]

Just basing this on a hunch... I think for at least episodes 1-9, I think the Arrow team will be more divided than we've seen before. I think Felicity will routinely come help but not devote all her time as before, I hope there is still great story telling for her personal arc but I think Olicity will be growing further apart/put to rest (which I don't mind because to me Felicity is more important than Olicity). Diggle being a father will automatically detract him from being team arrow all day every day. Roy will be distracted by Thea's return and their issues with each other. Oliver is going to be stuck because now he knows that being the Arrow is not all he wants to be. Problem is he already made clear that "he made his choice" so trying to get on the path to being happy. It seems everyone's options and motivations are pointing them outside of the team which is interesting because my guess is in the back half it will be about the team being re-established, possibly with Laurel there as a member (*cringe*, I know...)

 

I think that you're right that Team Arrow is going to seem pretty fractured.  If Felicity is off working for Ray, I think more of her screentime will be devoted to that arc.  Diggle is supposed to be off the team or sidelined (not sure which), so he's probably not going to be helping out with bad guys.  It appears that it's going to be a lot of Oliver, Roy, and BC in training, Laurel.  That sucks because Original Team Arrow trio (O/F/D) is one of the main reasons I watch this show.  I suspect that Team Arrow Trio is a big draw for a lot of people, actually.   

 

It seems like a really bad idea to break up the team, kill or pause the Oliver/Felicity romance, and double-down on Laurel.  Actually, I'm pretty sure that these are the absolute worst things the EPs could do. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[calliope1975]

That sucks because Original Team Arrow trio (O/F/D) is one of the main reasons I watch this show.  I suspect that Team Arrow Trio is a big draw for a lot of people, actually.   

 

It seems like a really bad idea to break up the team, kill or pause the Oliver/Felicity romance, and double-down on Laurel. 

 

I suspect fantique is correct as well, and this might just push Arrow off my viewing list. I'll give this story line until the end of the year, but I will be pretty pissed if they keep TA broken up all year. If they want me to buy Insta!Canary and Insta!Arsenal, then they damn well can speed up Oliver's man pain resolution, too.

[AustenChick]

 

It appears that it's going to be a lot of Oliver, Roy, and BC in training, Laurel.

Er, that depresses me. A lot. I watch for the D/O/F dynamic. While I like/don't mind Roy in general, he's nowhere near as endearing as Dig and Felicity. And Laurel, well. I'm trying to like her.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, it's odd given the criticism the EPs acknowledged about S2--that the Foundry was getting crowded, that the original Team Arrow was the heart of the show and critics missed their interactions, etc.--that they would start Season 3 by taking that note and saying, "How can we exacerbate that problem?"

 

On the other hand, I always knew there would be periods of conflict between O/D and O/F, and I understand the need for them for dramatic reasons. Maybe that's why they had Dig say Oliver was right at the end of The Calm, and why Oliver didn't fight him on coming back to the team in Sara. Because they need O/D on the same page, firmly bonded, if O/F are not.

 

But at any rate, it doesn't solve the original problem, ongoing since 2B, that neglecting that particular O/D/F dynamic hurts the energy of the show. It's a tightrope--having conflict without sacrificing the best part of the show. And right now, my guess is that that dynamic will be basically nil for the next two episodes at least, as Felicity is separated from the team, so I'll just be over here feeling sad.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[SonofaBiscuit]

It's scary to think about Oliver spending most of his Arrowing time with Laurel and Roy.  Laurel seems to bring out the worst in him, so I hope that I'm not in for a season of Oliver being a gigantic dick.  It would be so exhausting at this point for him to lose all of the progress that he's made over the last two years. 

[Happy Harpy]

 

But at any rate, it doesn't solve the original problem, ongoing since 2B, that neglecting that particular O/D/F dynamic hurts the energy of the show. It's a tightrope--having conflict without sacrificing the best part of the show.

Oh! I just bitterly spouted my bitter rambles about this in the Bitterness Thread :)

The problem is also for me that so far, the O/D/F dynamic was organic. There were conflicts, and serious ones actually...the Diggle/Oliver association was quite chaotic in the beginning, and so were the former's reasons for leaving in S1, for example. But those conflicts were character-driven which helped in orienting the show's dynamic and contributed to interesting plots, and they were about Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity...

Whereas I feel that the conflicts and separation of the team since the beginning of the season are anything but. They're OOC - I won't believe in a million or even a billion years that Felicity could think that Oliver doesn't have feelings- they're not really about Oliver, Felicity and Diggle because they're articial and plot-driven, and imo aim at making place for other characters.

 

My fear, with the turn that the events took so far, is  for S3 to be Auld Lang Syne for Team Arrow.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[statsgirl]

And on paper that's probably not a bad plan, even, but in reality I can see the audience not falling for that trap. The writing is clearly going for emotional resonance here. But I'm not sure they ARE able to manipulate the audience into the correct emotional response -- which right now seems to be pity/sympathy. Because the inconsistent writing and subpar acting of the past two seasons -- on top of the resentment for losing Sara -- might just be bigger triggers for emotional reaction re: Laurel than what's actually on screen.

It they do that, I think it will fail because while KC is good in vengeance scenes, she's awful (IMO) in evoking pity and being vulnerable.  That's something Caity Lotz did so well, even while she was kicking ass as the Canary.  Cassidy can't do it, so I say, bring it on.

 

I think that you're right that Team Arrow is going to seem pretty fractured.  If Felicity is off working for Ray, I think more of her screentime will be devoted to that arc.  Diggle is supposed to be off the team or sidelined (not sure which), so he's probably not going to be helping out with bad guys.  It appears that it's going to be a lot of Oliver, Roy, and BC in training, Laurel.  That sucks because Original Team Arrow trio (O/F/D) is one of the main reasons I watch this show.  I suspect that Team Arrow Trio is a big draw for a lot of people, actually. 

Part of me wants this too because I think it will be reflected in the ratings.  The show is pretty much assured a season 4 so that it can be syndicated but I want a serious wake-up call for these EPs.

 

And if they think Ray/Felicity is going to make up for lack of Felicity in the lair.... hahahahahaha. 

[pootlus]

What is Laurel's excuse for not telling her mother? Is it she's too far away? 

 

Quentin will probably be dying this season, because once Sara's killer is caught Laurel will need another reason to keep being a hero. Since she can't have her own reason. 

 

Quentin dying is probably my big fear for this year.  Which may just push me to hit the metaphorical off button, as I don't know if I could stand another great character and actor killed to make way for Laurel.

[BkWurm1]

So far there is no one to fill Quentin's role on the show so that should keep him alive for awhile at least. The day the introduce a young up and comer on the police force, well then start worrying.

[Sakura12]

They don't need Quentin, Laurel can just replace him because she doesn't need the experience, she's that awesome. She's a warrior remember. 

[Carrie Ann]

I am a huge fan of Oliver already knowing about the kid, because that explains the core of this whole Maseo and Threatened Son of Maseo thing. Deadshot and his daughter provide an example as well. Waller would absolutely have threatened Oliver's child. Whether she told him about the kid as leverage, or whether he found out and stayed away to avoid giving her leverage, it all folds together perfectly. It is also what he would have done. He would have stayed away, then and now. He would've made sure the child was taken care of, but he could've funneled tens of millions of dollars to her over the years. And it would cause earned, specific conflict with Felicity, whose own dad abandoned her. Of every possible conflict other than finding out he really does have some connection to her from before the meet-cute that he has been concealing, that is the one that would hit the hardest. She would understand why he made the choice to not have a relationship with his son THEN, but NOW? It's the same thing he's doing with her. Really more than anything he could ever do or not do wrt her, that is what would actually make her be like ok, I'm done. It gets us all the benefits of the kid without actually having a child actor to deal with, so best of all worlds.

 

Bringing this over from the spoilers thread, because there aren't any actual spoilers about Oliver's lovechild--we're just speculating on the spectre of it. I will join others in saying that I have ZERO interest in Oliver's child having any real presence on the show. I've talked about this here somewhere this summer, so I won't rehash my thoughts on the inherent suckiness of a kid on a show like this.

 

But, obviously it will be addressed in some way, and if that has to happen this season, I would prefer it happen early on so that it can be resolved alongside the other inner conflicts Oliver is facing, as well as his conflicts with Felicity. I would also prefer it if he already knows, especially if Waller was using it against him, because then it doesn't need to be some big emotional revelation. And if that's the case, it would be great if the kid already had a father. A stepfather who adopted him/her, for example. No need for Oliver to come in there and eff everything up. He can keep an eye on the kid from afar, and let him/her live a normal life.

 

And yeah, I agree that it will bring up some difficult feelings for Felicity, and what I would hate is for them to get close again by the end of the season, and then for them to throw this kid in the mix and have her shut him out all over again. I think viewers--not just active shippers, but people who watch more casually and find the O/F dynamic appealing--already found the quick reversal in the premiere to be a clunky stall tactic. And if they do that again, people will really get to the point of rolling their eyes. Or at least this viewer will. There's only so much stalling you can do before a ship stalls out completely, and you can't recapture the magic.

[Danny Franks]

 

And yeah, I agree that it will bring up some difficult feelings for Felicity, and what I would hate is for them to get close again by the end of the season, and then for them to throw this kid in the mix and have her shut him out all over again. I think viewers--not just active shippers, but people who watch more casually and find the O/F dynamic appealing--already found the quick reversal in the premiere to be a clunky stall tactic. And if they do that again, people will really get to the point of rolling their eyes. Or at least this viewer will. There's only so much stalling you can do before a ship stalls out completely, and you can't recapture the magic.

 

You do know that's absolutely, totally going to happen, right? If Oliver and Felicity are the endgame romance, there's no way they'll be together and happy by the end of the third season. These writers aren't that creative. Nor, I would guess, are they confident enough in their own abilities to actually write healthy relationships without cheap drama.

[ohjoy]

You do know that's absolutely, totally going to happen, right? If Oliver and Felicity are the endgame romance, there's no way they'll be together and happy by the end of the third season. These writers aren't that creative. Nor, I would guess, are they confident enough in their own abilities to actually write healthy relationships without cheap drama.

Well, at least they aren't overestimating themselves in that regard, because based on the show's patterns, I'm not confident in their abilities in that area either.

 

ETA: But I really wish they hadn't pulled the gun on the kiss so soon then. We didn't really need to have Oliver and Felicity first date, first kiss, and first breakup all in the first episode of the second season. I didn't really need that to happen at the beginning of the season at all. That pendulum from emotionally close to very distant and back again could have swung much slower of the course of the season, rather than than kicking it all the way over in the premiere, and then having it be stuck there for the better part of the next 22 episodes.

Edited October 20, 2014 by RandomMe

[Password]

I've always thought it can go one of two ways. Depending on the level of abandonment from Oliver concerning the child, Felicity could react negatively because of her daddy issues or she could react in a supporting manner because she knows what it feels like. As in she'd encourage him to see his child if the outcome of season 3 is Oliver and she getting together properly. I sincerely hope it's the latter because my beloved characters aren't about that contrived i-hate-you ish.

[NumberCruncher]

I guess I just don't see why the kid would/should be a source of conflict between Oliver and Felicity since it really has nothing to do with them as a couple (unlike Oliver and Laurel).  His philandering happened years before they met so why would Felicity care?  She knows he's a different person from before Lian Yu because he flat-out told her he was.  To have the writers make the storyline contentious would make zero sense to me as a viewer.  There's nothing thus far to hint that Oliver even knows the child exists so if he were to find out, I would think Felicity would be supportive of him.  She has no reason not to.  Also if they write that Oliver has been concealing it all these years and ignoring the kid then that would just make Oliver an asshole.  Viewers are already having a hard time cheering him on with his moody, self-inflicted manpain so I can't imagine any scenario where the audience would forgive him for something infinitely more unseemly.

 

ITA with RandomMe regarding the season premiere Olicity scenes.  As with everything else in the first 2 episodes, the pacing was way off and I think it's a direct result of not allowing the audience to see what happened in the five months since the mansion scene.  I get that the showrunners are trying to keep the show exciting and fast-paced but they're losing character development in the process.  I love action and suspense as much as the next watcher, but if I don't care for the characters, then what's the point?  I can just go watch a Michael Bay movie.

Edited October 20, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Carrie Ann]

You do know that's absolutely, totally going to happen, right? If Oliver and Felicity are the endgame romance, there's no way they'll be together and happy by the end of the third season. These writers aren't that creative. Nor, I would guess, are they confident enough in their own abilities to actually write healthy relationships without cheap drama.

 

Oh, yeah, I don't expect them to get together and then stay together permanently. That's why if this kid thing has to happen this season, I'd prefer it happen sooner than later. If it comes out mid-season, when they aren't together, and it's just another conflict between them, then it can be resolved along with the rest. It would bother me more if they resolve the other issues, and then this one pops up right as they're getting together. Just not interested in being jerked around--and by not interested, I mean I would truly find it boring and tedious.

 

But as @NumberCruncher points out, it might not lead to a conflict between them. I agree that if Oliver doesn't know, then Felicity wouldn't have a problem with it. If he did know, and made a choice to stay away, it could go either way, but I just can't imagine the writers wasting any opportunity to create conflict between these two characters. Because they hate joy.

[Genki]

ITA with RandomMe regarding the season premiere Olicity scenes.  As with everything else in the first 2 episodes, the pacing was way off and I think it's a direct result of not allowing the audience to see what happened in the five months since the mansion scene.  I get that the showrunners are trying to keep the show exciting and fast-paced but they're losing character development in the process.  I love action and suspense as much as the next watcher, but if I don't care for the characters, then what's the point?  I can just go watch a Michael Bay movie.

 

Could not agree more. 

 

I resent S 2.5 because I've been suckered into buying them for not much, pay-off.

 

I'm glad Thea is coming back soon, at least we should see some Oliver/Thea development on-screen.

 

ETA: "Family" seem like a strong theme running throughout the season so far with Oliver's "nothing is more important to me than family" and Sarah being labelled as "family" in E3.02.

 

There is no way can resist the lost kid when it ties in so well, I'm hoping for a Nikita style storyline, find out drama, meet, send away for "their own protection", which gives all the emotional beats without having to deal with a child character every week.

 

I hope it doesn't produce too much drama for Oliver and Felicity…but could see how it would happen.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Genki

[AES13]

What I dread is Oliver and Felicity arguing over the level of his involvement with the kid and it being a deal breaker for them (until next season, of course)..  

 

I can see Felicity, once she knows about him, pushing Oliver to be more involved in his life and Oliver resisting due to a number of factors: the life he leads as Arrow, his notoriety as Oliver Queen, his lack of self confidence in himself as a father figure, his current level of poverty(!), etc.  I can see Felicity due to her abandonment issues and somewhat romantic leanings wanting Oliver to pick up the mantle of fatherhood, regardless of the practicalities and Oliver's trepidation.  

 

And if that's the case, it would be great if the kid already had a father. A stepfather who adopted him/her, for example. No need for Oliver to come in there and eff everything up. He can keep an eye on the kid from afar, and let him/her live a normal life.

 

I agree; it would lessen Oliver's responsibilities considerably if there was already a (beloved) father figure in the way.  Then Felicity could comfort him over his guilt at producing the kid, his relief that despite Oliver he is being taken care of, his guilt at that relief, his gratitude for Felicity's support, his guilt over not providing the same, and some more guilt!  ;)

[NumberCruncher]

I can see Felicity, once she knows about him, pushing Oliver to be more involved in his life and Oliver resisting due to a number of factors: the life he leads as Arrow, his notoriety as Oliver Queen, his lack of self confidence in himself as a father figure, his current level of poverty(!), etc.  I can see Felicity due to her abandonment issues and somewhat romantic leanings wanting Oliver to pick up the mantle of fatherhood, regardless of the practicalities and Oliver's trepidation.

 

 

I guess I could buy this scenario, but it still would come off as Oliver being rather selfish, so I wouldn't love it. Can't we just forget about the kid altogether? *sigh*

[dtissagirl]

I just keep thinking of the logistics of making this show work with a baby and a 5-6 year old kid having to be dealt with, even in a recurring basis. How does Oliver's kid fit into the narrative is my question. Diggle's kid has the advantage of being a newborn and frankly not needing much in terms of development. Plus, Diggle has Lyla, so we can always assume if Dig doesn't have the baby, Lyla does.

 

But for Oliver, for him to be involved in the kid's life, there has to be some monumental shift in storyline. Does he hang up the quiver like he's forcing Diggle to do? No, because then there's no show. Does he move Baby Mama and Kid back to Starling City and tries to make a go at a family with them? Again, all sorts of problems -- does he tell them about Arrow-ing? Does he suddenly think it's all right for him to have a family when he feels he can barely go out on a date? Hey, Felicity, I can't be with you specifically because reasons, but it's not you, it's the kid.

 

I guess that's why I hope that Oliver either already knows about the kid [via Amanda Waller/flashbacks], or that the Baby Mama simply does. not. want. Oliver in anyway involved in her life, or the kid's.

 

The kid can come looking for Oliver in the series finale [they can flashforward a few years so he's a teenager if the show doesn't run that long], and then in the very end Oliver promises to train him, but we won't have to watch it.

Edited October 20, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Ceylon5]

From the Spoilers thread (discussion speculating on how Oliver will react to Felicity working for Ray):

Oliver was pissy when he thought she was spending too much time with Barry and not working for him; he made her his EA so that she would be right there for him when he wanted her rather than down 18 floors in the job she trained for.  And now she walked out of the lair and took a job with Ray, one probably more fitting to her talents than the one Oliver gave her.  I can see him being seriously annoyed with that.

 

I hope this doesn't happen.  Oliver is supposed to be growing as a person and learning from his mistakes.  If he keeps doing the same petty crap over and over again, he's just going to look like a giant douche who's never going to get it together.  

 

Given that it was Oliver's fault Felicity lost her job at QC in the first place and that it's certainly not on her that he lost his job there, I don't really see why him losing his bid for the company has any bearing at all on her working there (a job she should never have lost in the first place).  In my opinion it's none of his business where or for whom she chooses to work and never has been.  It's her life and she can do what she wants with it.  It's bad enough that he screwed with her job last year with the whole EA thing, and then unintentionally lost her her job when he mucked up his job, but that he or anyone else thinks he has any say in what she does with her life/career/anything else just boggles my mind.  Sure, he'll have an opinion, but if it's negative then he really should keep it to himself and, if he's a halfway decent friend, he should try to be supportive and be happy for her getting a decent job again. 

 

Also, the chance that Ray might get interested in her after-hours activities is a risk everyone on Team Arrow runs with every single person they interact with, and it isn't a good enough reason for them to just stop having outside lives.

[ostentatious]

I think that conflict over the kid between Oliver and Felicity would not come from the fact that he has a child. It would come if she found out he knew about the child, chose not to be part of the child's life, and even if he explained that with a Deadshot and his daughter type explanation, why not develop a relationship with him now? It would hit close to home with Felicity on two levels. First, her own father abandoned her, so if she's going to be reactionary on any point, it would be this one. Second, choosing not to have a relationship with his child in the present maps to choosing to not have a relationship with *her* in the present. Not taking risks like that. So I think she would react much more emotionally to him refusing to have anything to do with the child than just about anything else she could learn about him.

Edited October 21, 2014 by thecatbastet