S28.E12: Straw That Broke the Camel's Back

[JustAlison]

 

 

I like that about her too.  That's her trial lawyer skill set. A female trial lawyer ( I was one) doesn't get far unless she develops a hard shell and learns how to deal with bullies.  Many male trial lawyers will try anything to bully, intimidate, loom over, and even physically dominate their female opponents.  Good female trial lawyers will act exactly like Kass-take no bullshit, don't back down, laugh at the bullyboy tactics, and be smarter than them.

That said, I don't think Kass can win because most people don't like hard-shell bitchy female trial lawyers.  Most people like cops, even asshole cops, better.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I am so tired of women being judged because they aren't nice. Men have gotten a pass for being assholes for centuries, but when a woman is not all sweet and nurturing, it's reprehensible. Please. Being 'nice' is overrated, unless your objective is to be popular. Being popular lost importance for Kass many moons ago. She has the chutzpah to be who she is. A tough, smart, strong, opinionated, fearless woman. 

 

No one left out there is more egregious than Tony, in my opinion. He represents everything I hate about cops, with his endless double talk and blame shifting. I find his personality so much more grating than even Trish. (and that's saying something).

[truthaboutluv]

I agree wholeheartedly. I am so tired of women being judged because they aren't nice. Men have gotten a pass for being assholes for centuries, but when a woman is not all sweet and nurturing, it's reprehensible. Please. Being 'nice' is overrated, unless your objective is to be popular. Being popular lost importance for Kass many moons ago. She has the chutzpah to be who she is. A tough, smart, strong, opinionated, fearless woman.

 

 

In that same vein, I get tired of accusations of people being anti-feminist or it's a gender issue when they call out a woman for being an asshole. I can't speak for anyone else but Tony has bugged me plenty because I think he talks too much and is obnoxious and have said so many times. But as much as I can acknowledge the things that bug me about Tony, I will do the same for Kass. Many people throughout the seasons have expressed hatred for Colton, Russell, Boston Rob, Rupert, Coach, etc. and Sandra was hardly "too nice" and many people liked her, same as Cirie. Not every accusation against a female player is some attack on women. Some people just come across as jerks, like Kass imo, and they get called out for it. 

 

The woman has been incredibly obnoxious and nasty, many times when there was no need to be. See her snide comments to Spencer the episode Jefra was blindsided. Okay, Spencer was leaving, she was in with the numbers, he was down already, what was the point of all the "bye Spencer, good riddance, etc." comments. And I am sorry, the woman's behavior at tribal council was crass and embarrassing. She's a big time lawyer with all her words yet she couldn't make her points without resorting another woman to a bitch and then flipping the bird at her like some fifth grader. You know you are embarrassing when a 21 year old is looking ashamed to be seating there observing this as Spencer did which is why Jeff told him he would think he would be enjoying it. But instead he just looked embarrassed for these people. 

Edited May 16, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[susannot]

JustAlison, I wish I could LOVE your post instead of merely liking it.

[Jal]

I've never hated Kass, and this episode actually made me like her more. Except for when she threw up the middle finger. That was a bit much. She confronts people and then everything goes into chaos. She starts a little something, and then everything goes nuts. Just like she plans. And a lot of the time, the chaos is actually the fault of the person she wants to go against. They lied. Too bad. Like Tony in this episode.

 

There are some really dumb people in the jury who think Kass is just making up plays randomly without thinking about them at all. I worry these people are too dumb to know who should win the million dollars. And I'm not saying it should be Kass, but ruling her out completely based on grudges is incredibly stupid. That goes for every other final jury in Survivor.

 

With all that being said, I really hope Spencer wins. Otherwise, I don't really care. Kass isn't going to win, but it'd be really interesting if she does. I hope she can make a case for herself in the final 2, if she makes it that far.

 

The rest of the tribe need to stop being so stupid and just vote Tony out already. Even if he threatens them with the special idol (which I still hate now that it's being fake used in the final 4 and now that Jeff didn't tell him he had to play it), I hope the contestants are smart enough to realize that it would be incredibly stupid and unfair if he got to keep the idol until the end, and that they should get rid of him immediately.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I worry these people are too dumb to know who should win the million dollars.

But those people who are "too dumb to know who should win" are the ones who determine the winner.  That is the game of Survivor. It's not just winning physical challenges, the way Probst thinks it ought to be.  It's the enitire social manipulation game you play for the whole time you're there.   There is no "bitter jury" defense.  You don't get to say you should have won, only you played with people who were too dumb to understand why you were the winner.  Getting the jurors to vote for you is a crucial part of the game.  If you don't win those jurors, dumb or smart, then you have proved yourself to be a bad player and too dumb to win Survivor. 

Edited May 16, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[Alapaki]

I agree that female contestants who are assertive and proactive are sometimes judged differently from male contestants.  However, my problem with Kass is not that she's assertive.  It's that her gameplay is absolutely awful.  Although I do think that people (men and women) who say "I'm just telling it like it is" (see also: "I'm just keeping it real") are just looking for a license to be assholes.

 

It started when right from the start when she told J'Tia point blank that she was voting for her.  That resulted in J'Tia scrambling and arguably screwed up the Brains Tribe from Day 1.  

 

I actually praised Kass for the way she rebounded from that, when she found herself on the wrong side of the numbers within the Brains Tribe after the Marlins guy was voted out.  

 

But ever since she flipped to vote out Sarah, it seems like she has no plan.  It doesn't even seem like an "anyone but me" strategy.  It seems to me like she's more interested in seeing particular people voted out than she is in winning the game.  

I worry these people are too dumb to know who should win the million dollars.

 

 

But who "should" win?  The jury gets to decide that very question.  For all of the screwed-up ways that Probst views this show, he at least has always made the correct point that the ultimate challenge is convincing people that you (most likely) had a hand in voting out to give you $1 million.  (hint, Kass, giving them the finger on the way out of TC is probably not the way to go).  

[JustAlison]

Kass' awful gameplay has landed her in the final four. 

So what adjective would one use for the fourteen who fell before her?

[ratgirlagogo]

 

But ever since she flipped to vote out Sarah, it seems like she has no plan.  It doesn't even seem like an "anyone but me" strategy.  It seems to me like she's more interested in seeing particular people voted out than she is in winning the game.

Also, the whole telling people directly to their face that they were being voted out, as a policy because she was "just being honest", is lame on the level of the doctor from season one who voted people out alphabetically.  And she doesn't have the excuse of being on season one.

 

Another question - if you make it to F2 or F3, whichever it turns out to be, and you get no votes - do you get the 100,00 dollars?  Because if she's shooting for goat in that way and she doesn't need any votes....

Edited May 16, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[Alapaki]

Kass' awful gameplay has landed her in the final four.

So what adjective would one use for the fourteen who fell before her?

 

 

Well, I call seven of them jurors.  Jurors who I don't believe would vote for Kass to win $1 million under any circumstances.  And winning $1 million is, ultimately, the name of the game (unless Kass is playing to get re-cast as a "villain" in subsequent seasons).

[Eggman]

Much as I dislike Kass' unnecessary bitchiness, I will give her one thing.  She doesn't cry. 

[KimberStormer]

 

There are some really dumb people in the jury who think Kass is just making up plays randomly without thinking about them at all. I worry these people are too dumb to know who should win the million dollars.

 

I'm afraid I'd be one of those dumb people.  Can you explain her move today to me?  I'm trying to, but I just don't get it, unless, as I said,

it is an F2 and she knows it and she feels everyone but Trish would take her and she can beat everyone, none of which makes much sense to me.

 

Kass' awful gameplay has landed her in the final four. 

So what adjective would one use for the fourteen who fell before her?

 

I really can't agree with this kind of statement at all.  Phillip is a better player than Cirie and Yau Man by this measure.  Being a goat can get you to the end but it is not skillful play regardless.

 

Tony at least says that Kass is probably a lovely person off the island.  Has Kass ever extended that kind of charity towards anyone?

 

Much as I dislike Kass' unnecessary bitchiness, I will give her one thing.  She doesn't cry. 

 

I understand this stuff even less than I understand Kass's gameplay.  I'll never get what's the problem with people crying.  It's OK for people to laugh, yeah?  Why not cry?

 

EDIT: I do want to say that I appreciate JustAlison et al for defending Kass the way you are.  I don't agree with you, but I've spent most of my vocal Survivor-fan life trying, insofar as the TWOP rules allowed me, to argue with what I saw as sexism against almost every female contestant I can think of.  I don't mind someone doing it to me.

Edited May 16, 2014 by KimberStormer

[StatMom]

I agree wholeheartedly. I am so tired of women being judged because they aren't nice. Being 'nice' is overrated, unless your objective is to be popular. Being popular lost importance for Kass many moons ago.

Yes, if she doesn't mind how the jurors see and evaluate her, then she should act however she wants. Unfortunately, the jury is likely to apply some of the same standards as the prevailing culture, which includes some of the double standards you reference.

[Joystickenvy]

My issue with Kass in this episode wasn't that she was an asshole, but rather that her assholery is not accomplishing anything and may be detrimental.

If Tony is the guy she thinks she can beat at the end, antagonizing him really only jeopardizes her chances of getting there with him. She could have handled the Woo thing better if she just wanted to target Trish. Tony came out looking like a jerk, but not enough more jerky than he already looked to be worth the fracas with Trish.

Calling Trish a psycho bitch & skeletor at tribal and then flipping her the bird serves no purpose at all and looks childish and petty to boot. Tony's llama noises were also incredibly childish, but at least he didn't kick anyone while they were down.

There is no way Trish votes for Kass after that display. If Kass had taken the high road, there is some hope that if it was a Kass/Tony F2 Trish would be mad enough at Tony for playing her to vote Kass, but Kass burned that bridge and then burned the ashes. I don't think a male player who made the same moves would fair any better.

Tony has been obnoxious and if he goes to F2 with anyone but Kass, he probably loses, unless Woo's lack of moves bites him. However, while Tony had made some bad moves, his good moves to bad moves ratio is higher than Kass and his slights against them have mostly been blindside related, while Kass got into pissing contests with Sarah, Morgan and Trish and alienated Tasha & Spencer by flip flopping multiple times.

If she wins the million dollars then I'll have my slice of humble pie, but otherwise I'm firmly in camp Kass is still in the game only for goaty purposes and not for smart gameplay.

[SVNBob]

Tony's llama noises were also incredibly childish, but at least he didn't kick anyone while they were down.

If anything, that might have helped him with the jury.  He was poking fun at Public Enemy #1, Kass.  Whatever ill-will Kass might have wanted to throw on Tony, doing that to her in front of them probably reversed it.

[ProfCrash]

I will agree that women on this show tend not to fair well. Parvati played a strong social and challenge game but is thought of as a flirt. Sandra is a two time winner who baffles many people even though she did a good job of staying true to her alliance, staying under the radar and in her second play telling everyone on the Hero tribe what Russell was planning only to be ignored. There are women who played a strong strategic game who are recognized for that, Kim, Cirie and Denise come to mind. Lisa and Dawn were skewered when they played a strong strategic game because they couldn't handle playing that type of game and spent a fair amount of time publicly doubting themselves and crying. They choose the wrong game for their personalities. They could not lie and blindside people in the game because it was too far a reach for who they were as people.

 

Kass is not Kim, Cirie, Denise or Parvati. She Is not building alliances and then blindsiding the suckers who were in her fake alliance, like Kim. She is not playing a good social game and winning challenges like Parvati (when she won). I suppose she is the successful underdog from the minority tribe to make it far in the game like Denise but without the challenge wins or social skills.

 

Kass intentionally stirs up shit like Russell. She states in confessionals that she is going to set Tony off so that people will see him as a bully and vote for her in the finals, which is acting the victim. She is very good at instegating crap. She is very good at reading people and pushing buttons but that is it. She is not quietly whispering crap up like Tasha and Spenser have. She is looking at the hornets nest with everyone around, screaming "I am going to poke the hornets net", smiling when the hornets come out and she looks good because she smiles while they swarm and sting everything in sight?

 

Yeah, no. The only difference I see between her and Russell is that Russell destroyed peoples stuff, hid crap around camp and could be physically intimidating. Kass is an emotional bully and she knows it. Emotional abuse is not better then physical and that is essentially what she is doing. "If I do this it will set off these different people and I will get this response and I will look like the victim as Trish/Tony/Spenser/Morgan yells at me. They will look bad, I will look good and they will vote for me."

 

I cannot respect that. She could have accomplished her goal by having her quiet conversations with Woo and Tony. Woo was questioning Tony without the blow up afterward. Tony had already decided to dump Woo. What was gained by what she did? Drama for the viewers, which I appreciate, but not much else. Trish went home instead of Woo, Kass is still in the game but would have been without the fight. She has pissed off two more jurors, Trish and Tony. Woo looked like he was ready to crawl into the fire rather then listen to what was happening so I would guess that he does not see the fall out as positive for Kass. The only person who benefited was Spenser.

 

Kass's behavior has alienated everyone in the game. That is not good game play.

[Alapaki]

Kass also acts as though she invented the concept of creating/exploiting cracks in the majority alliance.  And, not for nothing, but since her flip to vote out Sarah, Kass has been part of the majority alliance!

 

The play at that point is to subtly, behind the scenes, work on Woo and/or Trish; pointing out that both LJ and Jefra completely trusted Tony, and look where it got them.  Tony doesn't keep people around while they're "loyal".  He keeps them around while he thinks they're loyal.  And as long as Spencer is around and has an incentive to turn Tony on one of them, they're at great risk of becoming Tony's next target.

 

Or . . . you could blow things up publicly, very obviously alienating Tony, Trish and the entire jury, and end up with Tony still in the game.

 

And, by the way, calling Tony (whose actions amount to nothing more than what every other leader of a majority alliance has done) a "mafia Don" would be considered by many to be an ethnic slur.  

[ProfCrash]

Honestly, I think that Kass is just pissed that she is not the one running the game but has so misread everything that she doesn't realize that she has no chance in hell of winning this game.If she makes it to the FTC and loses with no votes we are going to hear her bitch about bitter juries who don't like strong women and see a complete lack of understanding that she alienated everyone with her behavior.

[dolphincorn]

I don't know why this has to be a feminist issue.  Kass has alienated almost everyone and intentionally caused chaos in the game.  It's a strategy that will not be rewarded.  The last time it led to a final-two scenario, the woman who didn't play it won against the man who did.

[Catronia]

ProfCrash -- I think your take on Kass is right on target. 

 

Personally, one of the things I dislike most in the world is people who SMILE while being rude or aggressive.  This is Kass's primary tactic, and I find it beyond obnoxious.  It is clearly button-pushing, and may work well for her in her career if she's up against inexperienced/bad lawyers.  Good lawyers can put crap like that down in a second, and I suspect the jury will see through her passive-aggressive gameplay too.

[radishcake]

Women's historical and current treatment on this show are a feminist issue because they are culturally relevant. Women's representation in the media and pop culture are part what shape our view of women in our daily lives, like it or not. So yes discussion of how women are treated in the criticism and editing of this show is a feminist issue and can be discussed as such.

[FineWashables]

Kass and her "just being honest" pushes my buttons.  Whenever anyone asks me if they can be honest with me, I immediately answer "No, thank you."  Because no one has ever followed that question by saying "I've always underestimated you, and I was wrong" or "I was too harsh in my initial judgement of you" or even "I just realized I've never taken the time to tell you how much I've really come to appreciate you."  The question "Can I be honest?" is a euphemism for "I'm going to be cruel now and because I'm honestly cruel, I'm entitled to take a shot at your self-esteem, and you should be grateful.  And if you're not, you're shallow.  You're welcome."

 

And this, I think, is Kass's idea of honesty.  I once saw an episode of Flava of Love (i know, I know, but I'm making a point here).  Flava Flave had just kicked some girl off his island and she was storming away, wailing and throwing a tantrum and shrieking about "You think I care!  I don't care!"  As this continued for several minutes, it was very apparent that she cared very much.  And this is how I interpret Kass's comments about her intent is to be unpopular.

 

Bottom line: being bitchy is way easier than making an effort to give a shit about other people.  Kass is doing the easy thing.  Hope it doesn't pay off for her.

[Blinkoshuman]

 

One of the funniest moments of the night, everytime Spencer said "so Woo, do you have any thoughts on this..." where you could tell he was thinking, "or any thoughts at all?"

And his reply was..."yes.  what are you thinking?"  That was funny.

 

I want so badly to be on team Kass, but she's got to calm down the bitterness.  She's smart about creating chaos, but she's so unpleasant about it.  The name calling really turns me off to her.  "Psycho-bitch"?  Really?  Uncalled for.

 

Loved Spencer's comeback in the challenge.  Get it, Spencer!  

 

I'm not a Tony fan, but he's playing a good game, and he's got a damn nice chest.

[Alapaki]

So yes discussion of how women are treated in the criticism and editing of this show is a feminist issue and can be discussed as such.

 

 

I agree.  

 

But I do think there needs to be a distinction between the way the show treats women, and they way women are treated within the show, by other players.  (Probst's disregard for strong female players and his incessant bromances and man-crushes on "alpha male" players is well documented).

 

By my count, there have been 15 male winners and 12 female winners, which is close enough to parity for me to conclude that the contestants don't share Probst's, (or TPTB's) view of the merits of male vs. female contestants.

 

As far as how Kass is being "portrayed", I think the most heinous things we've seen have come directly out of her own mouth (or her own fingers). 

[ProfCrash]

I think that Kass is getting the same mixed reaction from fans as Russell did. I can see the strategy used by both players but I do not appreciate the unnecessary drama and bullying that they both bring to the show. I don't care for that type of game play. I can understand why people appreciate the strategy and the ability to find the weak links but I don't appreciate the stick poking, annoying, show boating behavior and intentionally pissing people off behavior.

 

I can appreciate how hard Tony is behaving although I think he has made some serious mistakes. He has played the demonstrative, loud but strategic game. His strategy has not always been great but he has made an effort and I think he has mainly kept his moves impersonal. The only time I can think of him personally attacking someone was this episode with the Llama thing. He took out LJ because he was a threat in the final, Jefra because she had plotted against him and Trish because she is threat in the finals.

 

Spencer is playing a good game even though much of his plans have led no where. His initial alliance with Garrett was not well thought out. I think he went the strongest players route and did not count on Garrett being a bit of an idiot. He dug out of that by laying low and being a good tribemate in challenges and around camp. He was in a good alliance but didn't see how much love Kass needed to be kept happy. He is not great at reading people. He has played the underdog well, accepting offers when they were made and not ratting people out. This allowed people to approach him knowing that he is not going to run to others and stir up crap. So Tony could come to him and then Kass. One worked, the other didn't but he was approachable. He has done well in challenges.

 

I think that is what has been fun about this season. We have a bunch of people playing but no one is playing with Kim like dominance and the insanity has been pretty diverse.

[truthaboutluv]

Just watched Trish's Survivor Live interview. Two things, Trish is now probably the fourth person (Morgan, Tasha and Sarah being the other three) to confirm that Kass needed constant ego-stroking, attention or then she was suddenly throwing a fit and making threats or claiming no one liked her. Trish's comments were very in line with Tasha saying that they had no clue why Kass suddenly decided she wasn't liked and at the bottom when she, Tasha and Spencer did talk strategy all the time.

 

She stressed that she and Spencer never left Kass out of the conversations. As Tasha noted the only thing that happened was that yes they catered to Sarah when the merge happened because they were focused on that vote and making sure Sarah did not flip back to her old tribemates. And in that one incident, Kass decided enough attention wasn't being paid to her and flipped. And here was Trish basically saying she had to constantly feed and stroke Kass' ego. And it's like again, how old is Kass?

 

The other thing that stood out to me was Trish's comment about Spencer which further solidifies to me that if Spencer makes it to the end, he has that win in the bag. The only vote that might be close is if it comes down to him and Tony because I can see Tony getting some votes for his gameplay, probably from LJ and even Trish herself as much as she thinks the world of Spencer. But she and Tony were close and it's clear how much she still likes him. But yeah Spencer against Woo or Kass, he's going to win in a landslide. 

 

His initial alliance with Garrett was not well thought out. I think he went the strongest players route and did not count on Garrett being a bit of an idiot.

 

 

I actually don't think that alliance was really a conscious thing so much as going with the numbers and it kind of happening. It seemed like David and Kass bonded fairly quickly in the tribe and he and Garrett just got along and then Garrett was able to say to Tasha and J'Tia, hey stick with us and we'll get rid of the others and suddenly they were a four. So I definitely see how he saw this as a good thing. But yes, who knew Garrett would turn out to be an idiot who refused to give Tasha a private meeting thereby convincing her to get rid of him. 

 

He was in a good alliance but didn't see how much love Kass needed to be kept happy.

 

 

To be fair, I don't think anyone in the alliance saw that including Jeremiah who was right there while Kass and Sarah were sniping at each other and later Tasha as well. As I noted above, this was one thing Tasha acknowledged that she screwed up in her post-show interview. That they didn't realize how egotistical Kass was that she would get that upset that they were focusing on Sarah because they were trying to get past the first vote post-merge. And really, I find it hard to judge them too harshly.

 

I mean who would really think that the woman would be that insecure and egotistical that despite being with each other for how many days at that point, surviving a crappy tribe, sticking together, talking and strategizing together that one time attention wasn't given to her she would flip. Again sure if she was an 18 year old but you'd assume a woman Kass' age would be way more mature than that and see the big picture but apparently not so much. 

 

As for his being able to read people well, we definitely know he was able to do so with Tony, his frustrations with Woo are actually hilarious because as he noted, Woo is so blank that it's hard to read anything with him. I think many of his talking heads also showed that he had a good sense of what was happening in the game and with the players. It's hard to tell though because somethings editing didn't show. 

 

For example, we don't know who really pushed the Jefra vote for the first tribal council after the merge. We know Sarah was pushing hard at first for Tony and Woo wanting to get rid of a physical threat and Kass was focused on Trish. But at some point, someone had to have decided that actually Jefra is clearly the least important person there and no one will see the votes coming for her. Maybe that was him and maybe not but we don't know. And there was also the decision to get rid of Alexis over Jeremiah. Morgan said in her post-show interviews she told them all how close Alexis was with Jefra but we never saw the discussion of that vote either. I also think Spencer's never approaching Trish was telling because I think he did know she was tight with Tony and would never flip. 

Edited May 16, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Alapaki]

I was just looking back over Spencer's course in the game, and he's both benefited by some very good luck (which is nothing to discount and is usually a huge part of winning) and also some very good play.

 

Pre-tribal-consolidation, TC#1 he should've been safe since he was one of the stronger players on the Brains Tribe.  In fact, everyone but J'Tia should've been safe.  Thanks to Kass, though, Dave went home.  He was very much in jeopardy, though, when Kass decided to side with Tasha and J'Tia and get rid of Garrett.  Although he was helped there by Garrett being such a colossal doofus towards Tasha which put the target on Garrett's back.  After that, he was in great jeopardy because he was outnumbered 3-1 against Tasha/Kass/J'Tia.  Luckily for him, though, J'Tia's crazy knob went up to 11.

 

Once they shuffled down to 2 Tribes, Spencer found himself in a potentially tricky situation of 3 Brains (Spencer/Tasha/Kass), 3 Beauties (Alexis, Morgan, Jeremiah) and Sarah.  Once again, he seems to have gotten lucky in that the Beauties, rather than trying to pull Sarah in to form a majority within the new Tribe, decided to continue in-fighting.  That resulted in Alexis' elimination.  As far as I could tell, none of the Brains had much to do with that, other than to sit back and not get in the way.

 

In the meantime, the other Tribe threw the first post-shuffle challenge and voted out Cliff, and then had Lindsay quit.  So everyone got lucky and moved up two spots that they otherwise might not have.

 

Next, Spencer and Tasha failed to keep Kass in the fold, and Kass flipped to vote out Sarah.  I don't think Spencer was really a target of the other Tribe at that point.  The Sarah vote was the price of getting Kass to flip, and they probably figured they'd have time to get Spencer out later anyway.

 

Spencer won the next Immunity Challenge, but I don't think he was really at risk even at that point.  Although he did fail to bring Kass back around that week.

 

Spencer then got lucky in that Tony got paranoid about LJ.  I can't remember if Spencer had much to do with that.  I do recall that Tony wanted LJ out anyway, although I thought he might pulled the trigger a bit too soon on that.

 

From that point on, I think Spencer has really upped his game and played very well.  

 

He found a HII, which most likely saved him the week Jeremiah went home.  (although it would've been really ballsy, and paid off big time, had he held onto it).

 

He was fairly masterful in turning Tony on Jefra, which not only saved him and Tasha, but resulting forced Tony to stupidly eliminate someone who had little chance of winning.

 

Then he won the next two Individual Immunities.

 

For him to make the FTC, I believe he's going to have to win the next one (or two, if its a F2).  

 

So I think Spencer will have a pretty good FTC resume.

 

I'd really love to see him go against Tony in a F2.  It's been awhile since we've had two finalists with legitimate gameplay arguments for why they should win (other than "I'm not that guy")

[henripootel]

legitimate gameplay arguments

Not trying to pick a fight here, Alapaki, but I honestly don't know what people really mean when they use this phrase.  I can see how folks could use this argument to point out how their rivals at FTC just sat around and did nothing (which should make them look less worthy) but the idea that some folks are more worthy because they spent time running around, listening behind bushes, etc - I never quite got that.  I actually get the 'I never lied to you' thing as, even within the framework of the game, betrayal actually exists (and I was fool to believe you so you know sure as hell I'm gonna blame you for that) but 'gameplay' seems a much more slippery metric.

 

Besides, from our perspective, who was out there hustling and the impact it had on the game - highly filtered by the editors.  And yet some of the appeals to 'gameplay' seem to me to be as if they were made from the perspective of the audience.  I mean, who gives a crap if you make a 'big move' that delights Jeffy but has no real impact on the game at all?  Some of the arguments about gameplay that I've seen at FTC seem to amount to 'I pleased the shit out of the producers with my antics - I deserve your vote!'.  I'm almost hoping that Tony does get to the end as I'm looking forward to hearing his version of this.

Edited May 17, 2014 by henripootel

[JustAlison]

 

I do want to say that I appreciate JustAlison et al for defending Kass the way you are.  I don't agree with you, but I've spent most of my vocal Survivor-fan life trying, insofar as the TWOP rules allowed me, to argue with what I saw as sexism against almost every female contestant I can think of.  I don't mind someone doing it to me.

 

I don't intend to defend Kass, and from what I have learned of her from this show, the idea anyone would need to step in front of her is laughable. What I find perplexing is that simply stating that I like her seems to enrage so many. 

 

 

 

Trish is now probably the fourth person (Morgan, Tasha and Sarah being the other three) to confirm that Kass needed constant ego-stroking, attention or then she was suddenly throwing a fit and making threats or claiming no one liked her.

 

So that would make 4 jury members who are bitter against someone who made it further in the game than they did. I would hardly replace my judgement with that of Morgan, Tasha, Trish, or Sarah. They no doubt feel they should have gotten further in the game than Kass did, like every jury member ever in the history of survivor? An exaggeration, I know, but really-juries are often bitter and full of bile. I am not arguing that Kass was liked out there. It would seem she wasn't. Kass crying that 'no one likes her' seems completely out of character, and we haven't seen that needy side of her at all. That sounds more like something Trish would cry about. Maybe somewhere there is tape of Kass bawling and asking why no one likes her, but we haven't been shown anything like that. So, the bitter lamentations of jury members don't sway me much.

Edited May 16, 2014 by JustAlison

[Alapaki]

Kass crying that 'no one likes her' seems completely out of character, and we haven't seen that needy side of her at all. That sounds more like something Trish would cry about.

 

 

I think we did see that in the episode where she flipped to vote out Sarah.  I think she expressed resentment that Spencer and Tasha were giving too much attention to Sarah and ignoring her.  (I can't be 100% certain that didn't come from other player's confessionals, but I'm pretty sure we heard Kass herself say that). 

 

And I think what's being described as "neediness" or "needing to be stroked/reassured" is somewhat consistent with her telling everyone that she's "a free agent" (which, itself, I think it terrible gameplay).  

 

She never really tried to form any alliances (at least not after the tribal shuffle).  And she never really sought to join any alliance.  Rather, she seems to want to be wooed by an existing alliance when the only thing she has to offer them is her not joining the competing alliance.  

 

Players who consider themselves the "swing vote" (much less brag about it openly in the game) are typically roadkill.  They mistake being at the bottom of both alliances as a position of power.  The only reason Kass has made it this far is that she made herself into a goat who everyone wants to sit next to.

[ProfCrash]

In the episode that she flips, Kass says that she knew she was at the bottom of the 6 person alliance and that Tasha was taking Sarah's side confirmed that for her. We didn't see any discussion that indicated that Kass was at the bottom of the alliance and the only people to say that Kass as at the bottom were Sarah and Jeremiah who claimed a final three deal with Spenser. We did not see any evidence of said conversations between Sarah, Jeremiah, or Spenser. Nor did we see any conversations between Tasha and Spenser saying that Kass had to go. I would be shocked to find out that the Producers did not show any of that footage because it would have made Kass look like she was making a great move and undermine the alliance she was deserting.

 

We have seen Kass instegate fights with people, Sarah, Tony, and Trish. We have see Kass complain that specifically state that she wanted to make people dislike Tony by making him look like a bully. The fact that Kass had to instegate a fight to make Tony appear to be a bully sure makes it sound to me that Tony is not a bully and he is not seen as a bully and that she is trying to alter how people see Tony.

 

Kass has stated that she does not like Tony being in control.

 

I understand that people like the drama Kass brings, it sure does make the show more interesting. I understand that she is playing in a way that blows up other peoples stories and makes people question their alliances which can benefit her. I see the strategy. I dislike that style of play, I think it is unnecessarily confrontational and I don't think it does a darn thing to help some one win. Kass is going to make it to the finals and probably get the $100,000 pay out. Good for her. She has no shot at the million, just like Russell had no shot at the million, just like Philip had no shot at the million.

 

The thing that really irks me is that she is totally going to play a Russell and complain about a bitter jury who cannot see how brilliant she was and completly miss that bullying (the emotional crap she is pulling is a form of bullying) insured that she would not win. Russell and Philip still don't get that they were goats, Kass does not understand that she is a goat. The lack of self awareness is astonishing to me.

 

Her flipping Trish off after everything simply cemented my opinion of her. She is an instegator and a bully who thinks she is brilliant and doesn't understand why people don't like her.

[EC Amber]

I suppose I'm slow, but I find myself perpetually baffled by contestants who think that because they have gotten far into the game equates to playing well. Have they not watched this show? Do they not realize that people are often taken to the end because they have not played well??

And I'm also one of those people who gets frustrated that some card must be played (the race card, the gender card, the religion card) when someone is criticized. When it comes to Kass I have yet to see a harsh assessment that wasn't warranted based on her behavior as a human being, not her status as a woman. While some of her qualities would otherwise be considered positive attributes it's how she uses them that destroys her. It's one thing to be an independent, strong woman... but those qualities lose value when they are motivated by malice and insecurity. And when it comes down to it when she loses it won't be because she's a woman, it's because she's an asshole.

[truthaboutluv]

What I find perplexing is that simply stating that I like her seems to enrage so many.

 

 

I haven't seen anyone getting enraged but rather disagreeing with comments about her. 

 

I would hardly replace my judgement with that of Morgan, Tasha, Trish, or Sarah.

 

 

I wasn't asking anyone to replace their judgement and mine certainly wasn't influenced by that. I already didn't care for Kass before watching these women's interviews.

 

They no doubt feel they should have gotten further in the game than Kass did, like every jury member ever in the history of survivor? An exaggeration, I know, but really-juries are often bitter and full of bile.

 

 

Actually no, there was no expressing that they should have gotten further in the game than Kass and YMMV but I did not see their comments as bitterness or bile or even anger. With Tasha for example, Parvati asked clearly what happened and why did Kass think she was at the bottom and was she. Tasha stated that no, Kass wasn't and that she didn't know why Kass felt that way. She stated calmly that she and Spencer had always worked with Kass during that point, talked strategy with her, included her in the conversations. And then she said that yes, they catered to Sarah at that point because they were trying to secure that vote post the merge. 

 

And as others above have noted, we were shown the scene of Tasha, Kass and Sarah talking where all Tasha tried to do was diffuse the situation and Kass started going on about apparently no longer being in the alliance and being booted for Sarah and no longer being important. I'm sure no one was using crying literally when saying she would cry that she was no longer in the alliance or at the bottom, etc. 

 

As for Trish, her comment had nothing to do with thinking she would have gotten further than Kass. She simply stated that she never liked Kass but Tony made the point that she needed her ego stroked and that they had to keep doing that so she wouldn't go off the rails. Also if Trish was so bitter, I'd imagine she'd be more pissed at the guy she had the Final 3/2 deal with, who she stuck with the whole time and then voted her out. And instead she has nothing but good things to say about him. 

 

As for Morgan, again, like Tasha, Parvati asked flat out about comments Kass herself made on the show in her talking heads. And Morgan basically said that she had no clue what Kass was talking about, with regards to being at the bottom and no one liking her and Morgan being so awful to her. And as Morgan mentioned in her interview, there is the secret scene online of her right after the tribal swap saying how awesome and cool Kass was. So again YMMV but I didn't read bitterness from any of these people. I saw most of them saying "we don't know what she was talking about and a lot of it came down to her ego and once she felt she wasn't being worshiped or given enough attention, she flipped."

Edited May 16, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[KimberStormer]

 

I don't intend to defend Kass, and from what I have learned of her from this show, the idea anyone would need to step in front of her is laughable.

 

Well, I have no idea what that means?  But if you prefer, I retract my statement.

 

I do think taking boot order as an indicator of game skill is a huge mistake.

[JustAlison]

As much as I love a good debate, I really don't know what is left to say. I like her. I like her gameplay, and I think boot order is about the only indicator of skill in a game where the objective is to get as far as you can. YMMV. I will still think that.

 

I haven't seen anyone getting enraged but rather disagreeing with comments about her

 

I have, or I wouldn't have written it.

 

It's one thing to be an independent, strong woman... but those qualities lose value when they are motivated by malice and insecurity.

 

 

 

I agree. I simply don't find those qualities in Kass. I don't find her malicious, and I would never describe her as insecure. I find her to be very self-aware, with a healthy ego. 

 

Well, I have no idea what that means?  But if you prefer, I retract my statement.

 

 

No, that one's on me. I worded that poorly, and I apologize. 

[Joystickenvy]

If Kass' objective is to get to the end, with the exception of this week, where i think she ran a significant risk of getting herself voted off (unless the edit monkey's are hiding a deal with Tony), I agree that she has played a good game. The two best ways to get to the end is to play the goat or the non-threat and Kass has done both.

However, if the goal is to get to the end and win, I think Kass has made more bad moves than good. She seems to think she'll be the lesser of two evils if she goes with Tony or that the jury will let bygones be bygones and I think she's wrong on both counts.

[truthaboutluv]

I have, or I wouldn't have written it.

And I haven't, so we can agree to disagree. And I will say that it is one thing to say "I like her because of x, y and z" and another to suggest that those who feel differently are simply bothered by a strong woman.

[EC Amber]

...I would never describe her as insecure.

 

Which is fair. The thing is aside of clearly coming to different conclusions myself, the people who actually lived with her have all made comment regarding either a sense of neediness, or vindictiveness when not getting attention, the feather touch you have to take with her...

The malice - eh, that's just from the giddiness on her face when she's creating anxiety for all her campmates. On the face it's a good strategy, not knocking her on that. And effective as she's knocked more than a few people off their game. But does she need to be just one step away from a giggle the whole time? She's a pair of stilettos away from a sadist given the amount of pleasure she seems to have when really in the thick of things. 

 

[dolphincorn]

 

What I find perplexing is that simply stating that I like her seems to enrage so many.

 

I'm not enraged because I root for the villains all the time, and I never feel the need to explain myself.  I'm bothered because you continue to state (in this thread and a previous episode thread) that disliking Kass' strategy is indicative of a gender bias.

 

From above:

 

 

I am so tired of women being judged because they aren't nice

 

 

That never crossed my mind.  I like challenge monsters who can back up their strategy with self-preserving wins.  I was thrilled to see Monica do so well last season and I was rooting for Tasha this season.

 

You can believe what you want, but as I stated in that other thread, I'm not judging her because she's not nice.  I'm not judging her because of her gender.  I believe that she's playing with a strategy that will not be rewarded.  I don't think that she can win, so I find that her grandstanding is in vain.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Russell and Philip still don't get that they were goats, Kass does not understand that she is a goat.

Russell, yes (although he's probably more of an Ox).  I've always thought that Philip was deliberately playing for Goat in his initial season, since his second time around he was still nutty but nowhere near as cray-cray as the first time - meaning that he was able to dial it down once he felt he had a legit chance at winning. 

 

If Kass' objective is to get to the end, with the exception of this week, where i think she ran a significant risk of getting herself voted off (unless the edit monkey's are hiding a deal with Tony), I agree that she has played a good game. The two best ways to get to the end is to play the goat or the non-threat and Kass has done both.

However, if the goal is to get to the end and win, I think Kass has made more bad moves than good. She seems to think she'll be the lesser of two evils if she goes with Tony or that the jury will let bygones be bygones and I think she's wrong on both counts.

The way Kass has played has been such a good Goat strategy that it's still kind of disconcerting for me to see all the talking heads where she talks about winning votes.  Because otherwise if her version of "playing her own free-agent shit-stirring game" was intended to get her to the end  and the hundred grand, I would say it was brilliant,  the way I think Philip's goat gameplay was brilliant.   A hundred thousand dollars is a lot of money, the same as the grand prize on most reality shows.  Maybe she just doesn't want to admit on camera that's she's playing for Goat.   But based on what we've seen on the show, she seriously thinks she has a shot at winning the million, and that is just crazy.

[JustAlison]

I'm bothered because you continue to state (in this thread and a previous episode thread) that disliking Kass' strategy is indicative of a gender bias.

 

 

I think gender bias impacts everything in a woman's life, cradle to grave. That being said, I didn't say everyone who dislikes Kass has a gender bias. If it's not true for you, I am certainly not insisting it is.  I read all kinds of things on these boards that don't apply to me, but I do so with the  understanding that the poster is speaking in general terms, and not to me personally. If it's not true for you, I don't get why you'd be bothered. I continue to state it because I continue to believe it to be true. 

Edited May 17, 2014 by JustAlison

[dolphincorn]

I get what you're saying.  I actually like what Kass is doing for the show because it has made the season very unpredictable.  But as I've mentioned before, people are making plenty of logical arguments about why they believe Kass is playing a bad game, and you counter with arguments like "I am so tired of women being judged because they aren't nice."  I'm just trying to tell you that we (the people on this forum with whom you are discussing the game) are sometimes bothered by your generalizations.  You are "speaking" with us.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that Kass can win?

Edited May 17, 2014 by dolphincorn

[susannot]

It is interesting to think that maybe Kass really is deliberately playing the Goat strategy.  Apparently she is a successful lawyer and so may not need the money, so maybe she is just doing it for fun.  Clearly she is a button-pusher and a shit-stirrer.  Maybe she is doing it as an experiment to see whether she can do something that has never been done--get to the end as the Goat, and win!  I don't think she will and  I think she'd be fine with that.

 

ETA:I agree with Ratgirlagogo that Agent Shepherd pioneered the deliberate goat strategy. I remember watching the finale of that season with my son and Son saying incredulously: "that guy actually came in second?"

Edited May 17, 2014 by susannot

[EC Amber]

It is interesting to think that maybe Kass really is deliberately playing the Goat strategy.  Apparently she is a successful lawyer and so may not need the money, so maybe she is just doing it for fun.  Clearly she is a button-pusher and a shit-stirrer.  Maybe she is doing it as an experiment to see whether she can do something that has never been done--get to the end as the Goat, and win!  I don't think she will and  I think she'd be fine with that.

You know, I can really get behind this. She seems so deliberate in her behavior that this would clarify quite a bit. In a way I hope this is precisely what she is doing. I would think if she was asked back (presumably as a villain) she will be far more savvy next time around. Or, wishful thinking. 

[dolphincorn]

I wouldn't mind seeing Kass come back.  She'd had to have a Parvati-like turnaround, though, to get anywhere.  I suppose the "chaos" thing would make her an easy target early in the game.

[Hera]

I think that is what has been fun about this season. We have a bunch of people playing but no one is playing with Kim like dominance and the insanity has been pretty diverse.

I agree with this. No one has come close to playing a perfect game this season, and the result is much more interesting to watch than Boston Rob's or Kim Spradlin's wins (though to Kim's credit, she had not had three seasons during which to refine her game; she was just that good right out of the gate). While I don't love anyone this season, there is also no one I'd really hate to see brought back for an All Stars season—even Tony and Kass.

 

As for Kass, I can appreciate that she didn't allow herself to be fazed by Spencer ("Kass: no chance of winning this game.") or Tony and his various blow-ups in recent episodes, and I think she's probably a pretty awesome person to have in your corner in real life.  But in this game, she's not very good or very likeable. I thought Trish came off badly in their confrontation at camp, but then Kass decided to get personal too, and the result was that they both looked like assholes. However, after Tribal Council, Kass looked like the bigger one. Flipping someone off after they've just been voted out (and said, "Good luck," to everyone as their parting words) is poor sportsmanship. Trish could have done and said more stuff that we didn't see and which might justify Kass' behavior, but until I see that footage, I'm going to continue to believe that Kass was more unpleasant that Trish.

 

I also think there's enough love for Sandra and Denise—two women who are not "nice" and cuddly—to show that Kass' unpopularity is more complex than, "People hate it when women aren't 'nice'." She was my early favorite, but I ended up being put off by her Tysonesque attitude: "I'm awesome and everyone else sucks." I also don't care for players who lack self-awareness (the Russell Hantzes and the Abi Marias). By this point in his first season, Special Agent Phillip Sheppard knew he was the goat. Kass doesn't—or at least won't admit it out loud.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Kass come back.  She'd had to have a Parvati-like turnaround, though, to get anywhere.  I suppose the "chaos" thing would make her an easy target early in the game.

Or she'd be just as unpleasant as the exit interviews claim she is and she'd be dragged to the end as the goat again à la Russell Hantz.

[susannot]

I really am having trouble believing that Kass lacks self-awareness.  A successful trial lawyer constantly has to sell herself to clients, opponents, witnesses, judges, and juries.  She has to be aware of how she's presenting herself and coming across in all those situations, or else she will fail.  So I could be wrong, but IMO Kass is doing what she's doing on purpose.  I think her strategy is very flawed, but I think it is her strategy.

[KimberStormer]

Even as a goat, there's no way I'd keep someone who calls herself "Chaos Kass" around for a single tribal.  It's no surprise to me the Heroes got rid of Sugar immediately--someone who's truly unpredictable, who upends the game for no discernable reason and is self-confessedly not the slightest bit a team player, has to go.  It's no good keeping a goat who you can't count on, as Ken and Crystal learned to their sorrow.  Of course it would be great to sit next to someone who can't get a vote in the end, but you gotta get to the end first!  Phillip voted with Rob every time past the merge; that's the kind of goat you want.  I don't think it matters what kind of changes Kass makes, I think she's pretty much doomed from the start, unless maybe if she gets in tight with the Survivor cool kids like Cochran did so she has alliances coming in.  And I find it hard to imagine she would be into that.

 

I think Phillip was a self-aware goat in his first season, but I agreed with him when he said, with somewhat surprising humility, "I think I had a chance" at the Caramoan Ponderosa.  Had the 3 Amigos not done what they did, and Andrea or Cochran or whoever had taken Phillip to the end, I think they might have found him to be a much more difficult opponent than they expected.  I don't know if Kass thinks she's a goat, but I haven't seen anything to suggest it--she seems to know she's going to have some difficulty winning over the jury, but so did Todd and Kim and Parvati and everyone else who's not delusional (or JT).

 

I guess I'm the only person in the world but I enjoyed watching Kim dominate much more than this season.

[susannot]

You're not the only person in the world!  I loved Kim's season.

[picklesprite]

Just pretending to know what I'm talking about here, but I can imagine Kass's provocative style working well in a courtroom, but there's a judge there to keep her from going too far, and not to mention the opposing lawyers jumping to their feet to register objections. Maybe Kass has just never learned when enough is enough, and on Survivor there's nobody in black robes to bring the hammer/gavel down. Can you imagine her giving the finger, in front of a courtroom jury, to opposing counsel?!

[peachmangosteen]

I guess I'm the only person in the world but I enjoyed watching Kim dominate much more than this season.

I loved watching Kim dominate, too. Now, normally, I wouldn't like watching that, but I just really liked Kim, so it worked for me in that particular season.

 

But I love that this season isn't dominated by one player and that everyone is playing and that there are a few people who's gameplay provides me endless amusement.