S19.E15: In Loco Parentis

[Xeliou66]

Decided to go ahead and start the episode thread now. What’s everyone’s expectations for this episode?

[Willowsmom]

Whats the plot?

[wknt3]

19 minutes ago, Willowsmom said:

Whats the plot?

 

Quote

Carisi opens a police investigation when his niece reports a classmate for sexual assault; Stone learns there are no perfect witnesses when it comes to sex crimes.

[ForeverAlone]

I am HOPING for some good Carisi, because he has been sadly lacking this season (really since season 17- another casualty of Warren Leight's departure in my opinion). What I fear we will get is some over the top shouting and emoting, with Carisi crossing some sort of legal/ethical lines before Peter gets a conviction of some sort.

I really do hope the reason for his niece not reporting her assault to the police will be addressed. Her uncle is a freaking SVU detective. If anyone can guide a victim through the process, it's one of them. 

[ForeverAlone]

My thoughts of this episode as I was watching:

The opening scenes just highlights why I think universities have no business in dealing with sexual assault. How can Mia be so surprised that her attacker would be angry with her at being suspended? It's precisely why these cases should be handled in the criminal justice system, because a conviction there usually gets jail time. 

Of course unethical leader Olivia allowed Dominic to stay on this case, even though he should have been recused from the start. And if something goes south with regards to his involvement, it should be on Olivia for not being the leader she should be and allowed him to stay on the case. But if previews are any indication, she blames Dominic, when it is damn obvious he is not emotionally objective enough to handle this case.

Damn, Fin! That was a stone cold remark about Rafael pulling the plug on the baby. Granted, in the show's universe, it is true. But that just highlights how much the writers shafted Raul and the Rafael character, that six seasons worth of work has now devolved him into a punchline for some of the characters. It really makes me wonder about what the writers/producers were thinking when they chose such an exit for Rafael. 

I am glad to see Amanda in skeptical detective mode. Sure there are cases where she just flat out believes the victim regardless, but she usually can be counted on to not draw conclusions until the case is fully investigated. 

Of course Peter can't have ever prosecuted college age assaults and now he is following Olivia's lead. At least when Rafael came in, he had been prosecuting sex crimes in Brooklyn for a while and didn't need to be guided by a cop. But now, the new prosecutor (though certainly not new to prosecution) has to bow down to Olivia. 

And seeing Teresa's extremely angry reaction to Dominic (though understandable reaction as a mother) just reinforces why cops shouldn't investigate crimes against their own family members.

Damn! This case just got grayer with Mia admitting she actually said yes and lied in her testimony. I have to admit, I like this turn of events, just because it is different and casts the victim dynamic in a different light. 

Of course now Mia actually has to have been raped by Ethan (because the show couldn't just go there with a gray case and keep it there with a female who falsely cried rape). I think it would have been an interesting change of pace for this show to deal with the after effects of a false allegation/expulsion or what have you and how someone who was falsely accused recovers from something like that.

Now I can see how Uncle Dominic has gone fully down the well of unethical behavior. Let's see how this one plays out. Probably not well for anybody involved. Which brings up another thing. She is going to have to give SOME sort of explanation for why she invited Ethan to her bedroom. While I think it was good of her to try and make it right (though she should have gone through the university administration and not deal with Ethan directly), why would she not do this in a public place, even if just for safety's sake, since he had already threatened her? 

Nice to see Judy Heller again. She's always an interesting addition to this show as a defense attorney.

I see Olivia and Peter are continuing on the SVU LT/ADA tradition of having dinner with wine. But I am SOOOOO tired of Olivia being somehow the patron saint of the criminal justice system, and prosecutors are in awe of her knowledge. That speech made me just gag a bit, only because it continues to patronize seasoned prosecutors. Peter said he never prosecuted college age sexual assaults, but I imagine he has prosecuted some rapes. And I may take a legalistic view of prosecution (what a surprise), but prosecuting criminal cases aren't about the victim "telling their truth" (though they obviously get to tell their side of the story in open court). It is about prosecuting defendants who break the law and put them in jail. While I agree that prosecutors are the victim's advocate in the criminal justice system, their "client" is the state and not the complaining witness. Prosecutors absolutely have to weigh the evidence and the strength of each individual case before deciding to take it to trial. Olivia's speech just felt like an agenda piece from the Joyful Heart Foundation. 

I see Judy Heller came loaded for bear. I can't recall when a judge fined an attorney for contempt on this show. 

Damn! While I am glad to see that Dominic couldn't bring himself to commit perjury, that was damn reckless and irresponsible of him to think he wouldn't have been questioned about what Mia told him about the first rape. And I just love Stone's expression as he watched his case fall apart. He's probably inwardly thinking that EVERYONE in SVU is a bunch of liars and unethical fools who are out to tank all of his cases. It's a wonder why he doesn't high tail it back to Chicago (or at least request a transfer out of Sex Crimes). I wonder how this case would have played out with Rafael prosecuting it. I would just LOVE to see the interaction between Rafael and Dominic after that admission on the stand. 

While I agree that Dominic alone was responsible for his behavior and his choices, but again, that just shows why Olivia should have forced Dominic to recuse. She needs to take a little bit of responsibility for how this turned out. 

Peter is way too conciliatory about how this all turned out. Rafael had much more fire to him and those who lied. But at least Peter was able to get an admission of guilt from the defendant. Though let's be honest. No defense attorney of any caliber (and Judy Heller is a good one) would allow the defendant to take the stand and testify. Not after Dominic admitted Mia lied about the first rape. That alone would create enough reasonable doubt for him to be acquitted, and defendants are certainly not required to testify (and we have seen that happen many times in the past).

I didn't hate this episode by any stretch, but I think it would have been more interesting to go down a different route of dealing with a false allegation, rather than the standard college rape with a standard conviction.

Edited March 8, 2018 by ForeverAlone

[MrsRafaelBarba]

ADA Strike Back, I'm parked outside with the engine running.

 

Come jump in and we'll find a better show for you.

[CleoCaesar]

I made the mistake of being momentarily impressed that the show was actually showing a case of a deliberate false accusation. So of course they had to make the guy a real rapist.

[Fiero425]

4 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

I am HOPING for some good Carisi, because he has been sadly lacking this season (really since season 17- another casualty of Warren Leight's departure in my opinion). What I fear we will get is some over the top shouting and emoting, with Carisi crossing some sort of legal/ethical lines before Peter gets a conviction of some sort.

I really do hope the reason for his niece not reporting her assault to the police will be addressed. Her uncle is a freaking SVU detective. If anyone can guide a victim through the process, it's one of them. 

Which did happen! He was guiding her quite well until she confessed the truth and thought her lie wouldn't be found out! I'm very disappointed in all concerned! This is why rape cases are such a mess; someone pushes too hard for a conviction, we find out consent was given, and then lies perpetrated to cover it all up! Carisi's lucky to have a job and really paid no penalty! IRL he'd be gone! He shouldn't have even been involved with the case since he was related to the victim! Why was he even on the stand testifying? The writing truly sucks! ;-(

13 minutes ago, CleoCaesar said:

I made the mistake of being momentarily impressed that the show was actually showing a case of a deliberate false accusation. So of course they had to make the guy a real rapist.

He was suckered twice; once by the accuser, then by the ADA! He shouldn't have ever been on the stand if he's that much of a loose cannon! It should have been over when it was found and witnessed by Carisi that she lied the 1st time! I was shocked they continued the trial! ;-)

[ForeverAlone]

27 minutes ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

ADA Strike Back, I'm parked outside with the engine running.

 

Come jump in and we'll find a better show for you.

Hopefully that show has a rehabilitated Rafael and the two of them can kick ass together and put criminals in jail. I would have loved to have seen Rafael and Peter working side by side together, but alas, it was not to be. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by ForeverAlone

[dttruman]

I thought it was better than most of the other episodes this season, but they totally excluded the fallout when Carisi said there was no rape the first time. That should have led to a mistrial. The believe ability of Ethan Hartley going over to her dorm room after being invited is just totally ludicrous. I also thought the judge was very prejudicial during the trial. Stone was applying the same tactic on Ethan Hartley as the defense attorney was applying to the victim. The judge let Stone press Hart mercilessly yet levied a $2000 fine against Ethan's attorney for her treatment of the victim.

They also managed to fit in another person patronizing Benson for working a full-time job and being a single mother.

[Fiero425]

2 minutes ago, dttruman said:

I thought it was better than most of the other episodes this season, but they totally excluded the fallout when Carisi said there was no rape the first time. That should have led to a mistrial. The believe ability of Ethan Hartley going over to her dorm room after being invited is just totally ludicrous. I also thought the judge was very prejudicial during the trial. Stone was applying the same tactic on Ethan Hartley as the defense attorney was applying to the victim. The judge let Stone press Hart mercilessly yet levied a $2000 fine against Ethan's attorney for her treatment of the victim.

They also managed to fit in another person patronizing Benson for working a full-time job and being a single mother.

Just ridiculous in so many ways! I still can't believe Carisi was on the witness stand! He shouldn't have been on the case and definitely shouldn't have been interviewing ANYONE concerning this case; including his niece! ;-)

[dttruman]

14 minutes ago, Fiero425 said:

Carisi's lucky to have a job and really paid no penalty! IRL he'd be gone! He shouldn't have even been involved with the case since he was related to the victim! Why was he even on the stand testifying? The writing truly sucks! ;-(

Yeah, the chain of events used to set up this conflict were very ill conceived.

At least it wasn't an all Benson episode.

[ForeverAlone]

I was actually really surprised the defense attorney didn't make a big stink about Dominic being Mia's niece, since he was very biased. The only thing that sort of saved it for me was the fact that she then got him to admit there was no first rape. But still, I can't imagine why anyone would have allowed Dominic's continued public involvement in the case, to the point of testifying on the stand as a SVU detective of sorts. 

[dttruman]

10 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

Hopefully that show has a rehabilitated Rafael and the two of them can kick ass together and put criminals in jail. I would have loved to see Rafael and Peter working side by side together, but alas, it was not to be. 

I am not criticizing your comment, I am just wondering why it comes out as two comments?

2 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

to the point of testifying on the stand as a SVU detective of sorts. 

I was wondering why they didn't show the investigating officers testifying in the case and only Carisi.

[wknt3]

The Good:
An actual spotlight episode for a non-Benson character that delivered on the promise instead of being just a fakeout for yet another St. Benson story. Maybe next time they tell us we're getting a Fin story we'll actually get a Fin story?
Speaking of Fin, another good week for him. While it was a little light on the snark, he was still the voice of truth. His remark to Rollins about Barba was gold.
Carisi. They did a good job of spotlighting him and having him make mistakes/cross the line without going too far or behaving out of character. And it was nice seeing him show his legal knowledge without trying too hard (it probably helps that the legal writing in general has improved)
A solid and interesting premise well executed. It felt like a classic SVU story examining an issue where we didn't know everything from the beginning, but watched it unfold through an actual investigation and a well written trial.
Stone. Still enjoying the reset of the relationship between the squad and the DA to something more like it has been during the better seasons.
Good acting from the guest cast as usual.
They did a decent job with Benson this week. It probably helps that there was a really good story reason for her being hands on, but she was written as something resembling a believable CO and a professional investigator instead of an advocate.
No Noah in sight!

The Bad:
Not liking all the teasing of BenStone. Although if this is what is necessary to get Mariska to go along with an ADA who acts like an ADA and let them tell, not show, what a devoted perfect working single mother she is I guess I can live with that.
They could have fleshed the debate between where the line is between a mistake and a crime a little bit more beyond Rollins comments that didn't really lead anywhere.

Overall this is probably the best episode of the season so far and the first one that feels like it truly lived up to it's potential. It's nice to see the trend of improvement continue. I've felt since the beginning that Chernuchin wanted to go back to basics and this episode did just that. Even the flaws are pretty much hardwired into the show's DNA - if you have major problems with a squad member getting involved in case that they have no business working due to personal involvement or a CO chewing them out instead of taking more severe disciplinary action you probably should have bailed 10-15 years ago. Let's keep it up SVU.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Aw yeah, Benson and Stone are gonna be banging by the end of the season. They didn't have her get an eyeful of his chiseled torso for no reason. He's already trying to get in good with Noah. ?

[MrsRafaelBarba]

15 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Aw yeah, Benson and Stone are gonna be banging by the end of the season. They didn't have her get an eyeful of his chiseled torso for no reason. He's already trying to get in good with Noah. ?

Please don't put that out into the universe.

 

Mr. Winchester has nice body tho

[ForeverAlone]

Here's the thing about Olivia and Peter (for me, anyway). Since I rather like Peter, I don't want Olivia's mitts anywhere near him. But I am nowhere near as protective of him as I was of Rafael. And I would just love to see the fan outrage if they hooked up. Of course, I really don't think the show will go there, unless they want to lose their last shred of credibility. It would be so freaking unethical for Olivia and Peter to date, and while this show has flirted with crossing that line ( I mean, it seemed like they have been throwing red meat at the Barson shippers for the past two seasons), they never have actually crossed that in a way that would make it too unethical. But the writers seem to want to flirt with those ideas as much as they can.

[milner]

Another case decided by a witness losing their cool on the stand. And why did the boys lawyer even let him testify when they appeared to have already won. Regardless of the ending the niece caused it all to happen by lying in the first place. She ruined the boys life. I know he was guilty the second time but if she hadn’t lied in the beginning it never would have happened.  And why didn’t his apparently tough lawyer not object st the beginning of stone’s tirade 

[Xeliou66]

Pretty bad episode all around. 

Carisi came across as a moron, how did he not think the prior case would come up and that both him and Mia would have to testify about it? While it was nice to see him do the right thing and not become a criminal despite his emotions biasing his judgment, he still behaved like a moron, although Stone was right saying people are rational when family is involved. 

Which brings me to the fact that Carisi should’ve never investigated anything to do with this case. While Benson was right to chew him out at the end, it was partially her own fault as she never should’ve let him anywhere near the case, her not outright banning him from having anything to do with the case, it again shows why Benson is an unfit leader. 

I do not like the way they are going with Stone, he was too nice throughout the episode, he should’ve been harsher with Carisi although he made good points, and I can’t stand how they are having him be so nice to Benson. While he wasn’t nearly as weak as Barba was this season, he was still too nice and it didn’t feel like himself. Hopefully it was a one time thing done to placate Mariska’s Jupiter sized ego.

Speaking of MH’s ego, I was sickened by her PSA speech to Stone, it was clearly nothing more than Mariska, not Benson, giving a PSA for her fucking foundation, and I’m really goddamn sick of it being shoved into episodes, MH becoming an executive producer has weakened the show drastically. 

Fin was the only good part of the episode, he was rational as always as was the only one who came out looking good again, I loved how he told Rollins it wasn’t Stone’s fault Barba pulled the plug, it needed to be said, I like how Fin has been fair to Stone, Fin is a very reasonable guy and should be in charge of SVU. I liked the reference to Antonio Dawson as well, Antonio’s one of the best characters in the Chicago franchise and it’s cool to know him and Fin are friends. 

The reference to Ben Stone was nice as well.

It was beyond stupid of Heller to put her client on the stand, she already said he was a moron and she should’ve known it would backfire and that he might do something stupid. Had she not put on a case at all, her client might’ve walked or at least gotten a mistrial because Carisi’s testimony caused enough reasonable doubt. It was a deus ex machina ending, the episode would’ve been much better if justice wasn’t served, however the show is afraid to have an unhappy ending because Mariska’s influence has turned the show from a crime procedural into her delusional fantasy where justice is always served, the main purpose of the show now is to give Benson fangirls and SJW’s an orgasm.

I just have to say again, please don’t castrate Stone, he is a strong prosecutor, don’t make him Benson’s bitch. 

Weak episode with Fin as the only redeeming factor.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Xeliou66

[ForeverAlone]

You know, Olivia's speech to Peter about how it is the "truth that heals" is somewhat ironic considering Mia lied about rape in the first place. Granted, Olivia didn't know the full truth when she said that to him, but it is sort of humorous the writers put that in. Of course I don't think they were doing that to shade Olivia or Mia, but rather assert an agenda. It is still kind of funny when you think about it, though, and kind of undermines their message. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by ForeverAlone

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

The believe ability of Ethan Hartley going over to her dorm room after being invited is just totally ludicrous

et al. etc. etc. . . .
Dear L&O SVU writers and editors,
I get that in addition to covering topical issues that you want to be hip, relevant artistes with shades of gray characters and situations. But this is a procedural, not frickin' Fargo. We need things to make sense. 
So are you saying the wannabe neurosurgeon was really a rapist waiting to happen all along?
Because that's the only conclusion I can figure.
I look forward to your explanations in the Twitterverse.
Yours truly,
shapeshifter

[LittleIggy]

Mia’s rapist was an idiot. So was his attorney.

Edited March 8, 2018 by LittleIggy

[Xeliou66]

9 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Mia’s rapist was an idiot. So was his attorney.

Everyone in this episode was an idiot, Carisi, Mia, Benson, Heller, Rollins and the rapist. The only person who came out looking good was Fin.

[CelticBlackCat]

Hudson U should hand out a memo to all new students that drunk girls inviting drunk boys back into their dorm room (which is basically a bedroom) does not end well.  Why didn't Mia get in trouble for underage drinking?  Mia acted like a clueless idiot that bringing a rape charge against her roommate's wannabe boyfriend (Ethan was interested in Renata) to cover up her drunken indiscretion would not end well.  Ethan should have alerted the authorities right away that Mia sent him a text message wanting to meet with him instead of being a doofus and going over there.  That could have shown more entrapment intent.  Who in their right mind invites their rapist over for a little chin waggle?  Now his life is ruined with a 7-year detour behind bars and he'll never be that neurosurgeon he wanted to be.  Mia skates off with Uncle Sonny with a happy smile on her face.

[JyDanzig]

The morality of this show has become so grotesque.  This last scene, where Carisi and his niece are doing their cutesy banter, she's had the line where she blames herself, a sentiment which gets immediately and emphatically dismissed... it's absolutely sickening that they think this adorable ending is appropriate for this character!  Everything that has happened is her fault!  Morally, she comes off worse than the rapist!  To make an intentionally false rape report like that, then keep it going for months, then when she gets him punished because of these lies, to respond to his justifiable distress with such pure selfishness, and to escalate it to the police... the satisfying ending would have been her getting convicted of something, not him!

I really don't understand the purpose of these stories, where they go out of their way to make the victim as vile and loathesome as possible, but then attach it to a narrative structure where we have to view the victim as pure, saintly, and uncomplicated for the story to work.  This should not be so hard.  Just pick a lane!  If the show wants these simplistic climaxes, then stop presenting the victims as Evil Human Garbage, like this week's girl.  Or -- the better option, though one I don't think they are capable of implementing -- if they want the morally gray victims, carry the implications of that through to the rest of the show!  Within the basic contours of this arc, they could have done something very powerful.  But a story as morally complicated as "a girl who destroyed a man's life with a false rape allegation is raped for real" should not end with this kind of simplistic "white hat/black hat" conclusion.

Edited March 8, 2018 by JyDanzig

[Vicky8675309]

white male of the middle or upper class = obvious bad guy (sarcasm)

This show has been irritating me more and more lately. I get a propaganda vibe from it (hard to explain).

I think the colleges/universities should stay out of criminal justice and put it back into the hands of law enforcement. I'm against college tribunals. They shouldn't be dealing with sexual assault/rape cases.

[shapeshifter]

46 minutes ago, Vicky8675309 said:

I think the colleges/universities should stay out of criminal justice and put it back into the hands of law enforcement. I'm against college tribunals. They shouldn't be dealing with sexual assault/rape cases.

Reading this ^^ it just occurred to me that:
"colleges/universities should stay out of criminal justice and put it back into the hands of law enforcement. . . . college tribunals. . . . shouldn't be dealing with sexual assault/rape cases . . ."
—was supposed to be the moral of the story.
Maybe I'm just not sophisticated enough to get that on my own from what was shown?

Or maybe the PSA was: College tribunals may suck at rape cases, but SVU detectives investigating their own family members' rape cases are ten times worse because they can actually cause rapes??

oh. Wait. I think I've got the moral of the story now: False rape accusations will turn innocents into rapists. For reals.

Edited March 8, 2018 by shapeshifter

[ChristiKRN]

The rest of the unit has finally wore off on Carisi; I think a little piece of me died when he told his niece to continue to perpetuate the lie about the first rape.  He did redeem himself a little by telling the truth on the stand.  He should have been disciplined for not revealing that his niece was not raped in the first  place.  

I know people are going to say that the niece got her punishment when the guy did actually end up raping her, but she lied to the school tribunal and under oath.  It seems like she left the school on her own volition rather than being suspended for lying to the tribunal in the first place and there didn't seem to be any consequences for lying under oath.  

Benson once again showed bad judgement by allowing Carisi to participate in the case. What was she thinking? 

I was disappointed in Stone this week.  First of all, he should have chewed out Carisi for not disclosing that the original claim of rape did not occur.  Then, instead of chewing out Benson for allowing Carisi to participate in the case, he was starting to show signs of worshipping at the altar of Benson.   I can't handle it; I just can't.

How does Hudson U. have any students enrolled? Going to Hudson is like walking into an inner city gang territory. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by ChristiKRN

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, ChristiKRN said:

people are going to say that the niece got her punishment when the guy did actually end up raping her

That hadn't occurred to me, but now that you mention it, it must have been some writer's opinion, and then rather than Stone:

12 minutes ago, ChristiKRN said:

instead of chewing out Benson for allowing Carisi to participate in the case, he was starting to show signs of worshipping at the altar of Benson.

—it seemed more like Stone was punishing Benson with sexual harassment, because that is what exposing yourself to your subordinates is, right? Well, maybe not on TV. Even if it is an SVU show. At least not if the supervisor has great abs?

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Mia sent him a text message wanting to meet with him instead of being a doofus and going over there.  That could have shown more entrapment intent. 

Can't these writers and producers put together plausible plot lines. The producers probably come up with a simple outline for the episode and they expect the writers to come up logical events that are suppose to explain the basic outline. Is Rene Balcer still around? When he was involved or in charge, episodes were much more believable.

[dttruman]

13 hours ago, wknt3 said:

but she was written as something resembling a believable CO and a professional investigator instead of an advocate.

I started to think that and then I thought, wait a minute here. Benson's little speech to Carisi about credibility and honesty was a little too hypocritical, since just last week she failed to disclose that she knowingly harbored a murder suspect (Cassidy).

Edited March 8, 2018 by dttruman

[Gigi43]

Once again we see only the worst the younger generation has to offer go to Hudson. The guy was a moron for going over to the dorm. Since he hadn't done anything wrong until that point, she was someone who had ruined his life with a false claim, why the hell would he be alone with her again? And Mia? Forget that shit that she "Wants to please people." When you are 18 -hell when you're 15/16- you should know damn well to never accuse someone of rape unless you were actually violated. Letting someone get kicked out of school and have that on their record when you know they did nothing, so you don't look bad or whatever, is sociopathetic to me. Glad Carisi didn't purger himself for his dumbass niece. She did not deserve to then be raped, but, I did not like how this then turned to well the guy was a rapist waiting to happen anyway. The writing should have steered more towards (and its where his lawyer should have gone) the impact of what he'd been through being accused of something he wasn't, made him snap. It was mentioned but I don't think we really were suppose to give it real thought, because once this show starts making a character talk about "PC agendas", they're going to be in the wrong. Even though actions like Mia's is why people say those things, and it can't be said enough, every false accusation made then makes it harder for real victims to get believed because those cases are in peoples minds and in the minds of victims who may even decide to never come forward. I really despise people who make false claims and I hate this show for not making a bigger deal of it.

 

My favorite thing about the episode is that they didn't break my favorite thing about Carisi. If this were a family member of Stabler or Amaro, at some point episodes end, probably right in the beginning, they would beat the shit out of the guy or taunt him in hold up. Carisi's response was to work on getting him arrested and, again, he wouldn't purger himself. He shouldn't have been this involved and I hate that he did at first tell her to continue to lie. But thankfully he broke the lie. Doesn't Carisi have a big family? Where were all of them during the trial, etc. Mother Carisi would be there, no?

 

Of course Dawson is Fin's dude, they've both been partners of Munch! *wink* I loved Barba but Fin was, as usual, calling it as it is re: It not being Stone's fault. The casualness of which he said "pulled the plug on the baby"  was in character, but it as a fan of Barba in the first few seasons, it hurts that comment can be made as an accurate summary of his exit. I must get a Chicago PD reference at some point of Stone breaking it to Benson just how corrupt Voight is. I NEED it.

 

Why can't they write jury verdicts on this show anymore? Come on. Another breakdown confession?!

Edited March 8, 2018 by Gigi43

[TV Diva Queen]

I'm thinking its time for Lt Benson to retire.  As much as it pains me to admit, but I am over her, even more so because I watch all the USA reruns and she was so bad ass then.  Her acting style has changed, and I don't like it.  The concept of L&O was that they were supposed to be stand along episodes, which is why they probably did so well...this is becoming a police department soap opera.  I want to be able to miss a couple episodes and then jump right back in.  

[LittleIggy]

Why did Mia accuse the guy of rape anyway. Because he was her roommate’s boyfriend, and she didn’t want to look bad?

[MaryHedwig]

1 hour ago, Gigi43 said:

Once again we see only the worst the younger generation has to offer go to Hudson

"Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be Hudsons."

[Xeliou66]

This episode is tied with Info Wars for the worst of the season IMO, I hate the heavy handed PC-SJW agenda of the show now, they will never show false rape accusations anymore because the people the show is trying to appeal to don’t give a shit about false accusations, and it’s obvious Benson doesn’t care about a man having their life ruined, the same way she doesn’t care about males who are victims, this show has a massive double standard against straight white males. People like Mia from this episode are why there is such a strong backlash against the PC culture and the show’s writers/Mariska are just so extreme on the SJW side they don’t get it. 

I’m beyond sick of MH inserting her own agenda about victims’ advocacy into the episodes, and her whole sanctimonious preaching to Stone was painful and stupid. Prosecutors aren’t victims advocates, they don’t take cases to trial to help the victims, the take cases to trial only if they have evidence, I was hoping Stone would be the strong prosecutor that he is and put Benson in her place again but suddenly he changed into Mr Nice Guy, I don’t like how soft they are making him, and please don’t let Benson castrate him the way she did to Barba. We all know how that turned out. 

And it’s absurd how Stone and Benson are suddenly friends. 2 episodes ago (several months in universe but still) she treated him like dog shit, refusing to shake his hand and telling him “I hope you suck” and now they are suddenly close with Stone praising Benson’s skills as a mom (how would he know, he’s never met her fucking brat) and Benson telling Carisi what a good lawyer Stone is. 

There was a ton of bad writing also, especially why would Mia invite the guy she falsely accused of rape into her dorm? That couldn’t go well, and Carisi gave her terrible advice because leaving her to try to make things right on her own, Carisi should’ve gone to the suspect and his family with Mia and talked to them and then gone to the university, but he left her to fend for herself. Mia was one of the most unlikable victims ever and an idiot, Carisi was stupid, Benson was stupid, Rollins was stupid, the defense attorney was stupid and the perp was stupid. And the writers were stupid as well, also how did Carisi not think the first accusation would not come up at trial and both him and Mia would be grilled extensively about it?

Fin was the only redeeming thing about the episode, he was the only one who came out looking strong and I loved that he told Rollins that it wasn’t Stone’s fault Barba pulled the plug on the baby, I was sick of Rollins and Benson being unfair to Stone just because McCoy appointed him to prosecute Barba, it was unfair and I’m glad Fin said so. I also liked how Stone mentioned talking to Antonio and Antonio giving Fin his regards and I like that Fin and Stone are friendly, it’s much more natural than St Olivia and Stone suddenly being close.

[dttruman]

58 minutes ago, MaryHedwig said:

"Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be Hudsons."

I sort of got the feeling at the end that they both wronged each other and that we were going to get some kind of ending like "Romeo & Juliet".

[dttruman]

2 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

The writing should have steered more towards (and its where his lawyer should have gone) the impact of what he'd been through being accused of something he wasn't, made him snap

There was an episode a few years ago where a teacher was falsely accused of rape (or sexual assault) by some students (I think sisters) and at the end, he was vindicated. Unfortunately, the students got a slap on the wrist punishment and he said no school would ever hire him (even though he loved to teach). The episode ended with the SVU squad standing there saying something like "that's really too bad for him".  I thought they could have ended it better, by having him successfully suing the parents or the school, thereby giving him some sort of closure.

[Xeliou66]

15 minutes ago, dttruman said:

There was an episode a few years ago where a teacher was falsely accused of rape (or sexual assault) by some students (I think sisters) and at the end, he was vindicated. Unfortunately, the students got a slap on the wrist punishment and he said no school would ever hire him (even though he loved to teach). The episode ended with the SVU squad standing there saying something like "that's really too bad for him".  I thought they could have ended it better, by having him successfully suing the parents or the school, thereby giving him some sort of closure.

Yeah that one pissed me off, it was Dissonant Voices from season 15. Also the basketball star who was falsely accused in American Disgrace with the women having been put up to it by the Donald Sterling like racist, those women should’ve been arrested as well. 

[Corvino]

I didn't think Mia was a bad person, and I don't think she can accurately be described as deliberately and maliciously ruining a guy's life with a false rape accusation. What seems to have happened the first time is that she was brought up to please people and say what they wanted to hear; this guy was pressuring her to have sex and, indeed, lying on top of her (notice how small she was compared with him!); and she didn't want to have sex but said yes out of lifetime habit. He did, then, from her point of view, force sex on her when she didn't want it, so her emotional truth was that she had been raped. The only trouble was that he had no way of knowing that; his truth was that she had consented to what was in fact very aggressive pressure, but, in the way of some college boys, especially when they've been drinking, he didn't realize how aggressive he was being and how reluctant she was. (His style of seduction kind of sets him up as having it in his character to proceed to what he knows is rape later.) She then, full of regret and disgust that she had been used for sex when she didn't want it, talked to that other guy and other people and expressed her emotional truth, which was not a legal truth. It got into the hands of the college anti-assault machinery, and, again wanting to please people, she went along with the process. Then when she fully realized that her story had ruined his college career and, he said, his life, she tried (idiotically, yes; invite him to a public forum with witnesses and apologize there, girl!) to make it up to him. I think this is a pretty good picture of a gray-toned accuser.

I was relieved that they didn't ruin Carisi. Last week we had Cassidy completely melt down on the stand, and then we got the promo for this week which took all the fragments from this episode of Carisi acting furious, so that it looked as if he too was going to run amok. But no, the promo was deceptive and he was under emotional stress but retained his moral compass. (Apart from that one stupidity of telling Mia to conceal her oral consent.)

Why is Carisi's sister's last name Carisi? Did she never marry Mia's father, did she keep her maiden name when she did, or did she marry their cousin of the same name?

[TV Diva Queen]

9 minutes ago, Corvino said:

I didn't think Mia was a bad person, and I don't think she can accurately be described as deliberately and maliciously ruining a guy's life with a false rape accusation. What seems to have happened the first time is that she was brought up to please people and say what they wanted to hear; this guy was pressuring her to have sex and, indeed, lying on top of her (notice how small she was compared with him!); and she didn't want to have sex but said yes out of lifetime habit. He did, then, from her point of view, force sex on her when she didn't want it, so her emotional truth was that she had been raped. The only trouble was that he had no way of knowing that; his truth was that she had consented to what was in fact very aggressive pressure, but, in the way of some college boys, especially when they've been drinking, he didn't realize how aggressive he was being and how reluctant she was. (His style of seduction kind of sets him up as having it in his character to proceed to what he knows is rape later.) She then, full of regret and disgust that she had been used for sex when she didn't want it, talked to that other guy and other people and expressed her emotional truth, which was not a legal truth. It got into the hands of the college anti-assault machinery, and, again wanting to please people, she went along with the process. Then when she fully realized that her story had ruined his college career and, he said, his life, she tried (idiotically, yes; invite him to a public forum with witnesses and apologize there, girl!) to make it up to him. I think this is a pretty good picture of a gray-toned accuser.

I was relieved that they didn't ruin Carisi. Last week we had Cassidy completely melt down on the stand, and then we got the promo for this week which took all the fragments from this episode of Carisi acting furious, so that it looked as if he too was going to run amok. But no, the promo was deceptive and he was under emotional stress but retained his moral compass. (Apart from that one stupidity of telling Mia to conceal her oral consent.)

Why is Carisi's sister's last name Carisi? Did she never marry Mia's father, did she keep her maiden name when she did, or did she marry their cousin of the same name?

She must have changed it back, Mia's last name I believe was Marino

[JyDanzig]

1 hour ago, Corvino said:

I didn't think Mia was a bad person, and I don't think she can accurately be described as deliberately and maliciously ruining a guy's life with a false rape accusation. What seems to have happened the first time is that she was brought up to please people and say what they wanted to hear; this guy was pressuring her to have sex and, indeed, lying on top of her (notice how small she was compared with him!); and she didn't want to have sex but said yes out of lifetime habit. He did, then, from her point of view, force sex on her when she didn't want it, so her emotional truth was that she had been raped. The only trouble was that he had no way of knowing that; his truth was that she had consented to what was in fact very aggressive pressure, but, in the way of some college boys, especially when they've been drinking, he didn't realize how aggressive he was being and how reluctant she was. (His style of seduction kind of sets him up as having it in his character to proceed to what he knows is rape later.) She then, full of regret and disgust that she had been used for sex when she didn't want it, talked to that other guy and other people and expressed her emotional truth, which was not a legal truth. It got into the hands of the college anti-assault machinery, and, again wanting to please people, she went along with the process. Then when she fully realized that her story had ruined his college career and, he said, his life, she tried (idiotically, yes; invite him to a public forum with witnesses and apologize there, girl!) to make it up to him. I think this is a pretty good picture of a gray-toned accuser.

I would say you've crossed over and become a bad person once you start making concrete accusations and filing legal complaints off of something that is only an emotional truth, especially when you know that the nature of the accusations have a high likelihood of ruining the life of the accused.

But, of course, the episode is so poorly written that it makes it hard for any judgment of the characters to be "wrong."  Every character is so compromised by making unrealistic decisions to further the plot, thus none of them is plausible as a real human being, so as viewers we have to fill in the gaps ourselves, and we all make different filler assumptions and then render different verdicts accordingly.

I just wish this show would exhibit some awareness that a false accusation of rape can be as traumatizing and life-shattering as actually being raped.  There's a reason slander and libel and filing false reports and lying to the police are also crimes.

It really is depressing to contemplate the incredible episode this could have been.  Imagine they dropped the whole "and then he REALLY raped her!" twist and just did a story about Carisi being devastated when his niece is raped, getting overinvolved in the investigation, determined to get justice for her -- and then discovering she lied about it, and what that experience is for Carisi, and having to now choose between justice and family, now that his niece is the criminal, and at the end he comes around to believing what she has done is just too awful and she deserves punishment.

Or you keep the twist about her ultimately really being raped, just put some more time in between those story beats!  She realizes she has made a terrible mistake, she confesses publicly, she goes about the work of actually trying to make amends.  Then she might become some variety of likeable, sympathetic, relatable -- like the show clearly wants her to be, instead of this Reprehensible Garbage Human they actually presented us.  And THEN he rapes her, with the same justification: "my life is ruined anyway, even with you trying to make amends I'll still always be tainted by the accusation, so might as well take what everyone believes I took anyway..."  Then fighting that out in court actually holds some drama!

Edited March 8, 2018 by JyDanzig

[illdoc]

3 hours ago, MaryHedwig said:

"Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be Hudsons."

At least the original L&O used to mix it up a little (they had *two* colleges where crimes happened--Hudson and Styveson (something like that)). SVU seems to only have the one.

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, Corvino said:

Carisi acting furious, so that it looked as if he too was going to run amok. But no, the promo was deceptive and he was under emotional stress but retained his moral compass. (Apart from that one stupidity of telling Mia to conceal her oral consent.)

Thank you for reminding me of that. I did some heading banging, trying to figure out why he would tell her to keep it between them and then when he gets on the stand, he lets the secret out. Should Mia at most feel betrayed or at least feel be confused? I would have liked to have seen her return to the stand and tell the court it was his idea to stay silent. Well after all, if he going to tell the truth, she mind as well tell the truth too.

[JyDanzig]

14 minutes ago, illdoc said:

At least the original L&O used to mix it up a little (they had *two* colleges where crimes happened--Hudson and Styveson (something like that)). SVU seems to only have the one.

You might be thinking of Stuyvesant, which is a real high school that has gotten mentioned on L&O fairly regularly.  I think it's all geniuses there?  High achievers of some sort, it's a coveted school.  Maybe that's why they allow their real name to be used in this murder franchise -- they could actually do with less people hassling them for a spot.

I also have to reminisce on my favorite detail of Hudson, which is that it is so elite and competitive that large numbers of wealthy mothers are sleeping with the staff to get their kids in (as we learned last season).  Imagine with the rape & murder rates are at all the other universities, if Hudson is the prize!

Edited March 8, 2018 by JyDanzig

[ForeverAlone]

There is at least one other rapey university lurking around the SVU universe- Tompkins Square University. I don't know why they don't use that one more.

I agree that it would have been an interesting story if Mia's false allegation was more of the story, and we really saw Dominic wrestle with the dilemma of family vs justice. But the fact that Ethan eventually really did rape Mia shifted much of the blame for her irresponsible and frankly, illegal behavior. I think it could have been a more interesting, nuanced episode rather than the standard evil male rapist/blameless female victim with a conviction at the end, if Mia really had to take responsibility for her actions. Or even if they had left the rape in but have the defense attorney do her job like she would have in a better written episode, and refuse to put Ethan on the stand. His acquittal of an actual rape, because Mia lied about the first one, would be both a more realistic ending and one hell of a gut punch.

Edited March 8, 2018 by ForeverAlone

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, illdoc said:

At least the original L&O used to mix it up a little (they had *two* colleges where crimes happened--Hudson and Styveson (something like that)). SVU seems to only have the one.

56 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

You might be thinking of Stuyvesant, which is a real high school that has gotten mentioned on L&O fairly regularly.  I think it's all geniuses there?  High achievers of some sort, it's a coveted school.  Maybe that's why they allow their real name to be used in this murder franchise -- they could actually do with less people hassling them for a spot.

I also have to reminisce on my favorite detail of Hudson, which is that it is so elite and competitive that large numbers of wealthy mothers are sleeping with the staff to get their kids in (as we learned last season).  Imagine with the rape & murder rates are at all the other universities, if Hudson is the prize!

 

24 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

There is at least one other rapey university lurking around the SVU universe- Tompkins Square University. If don't know why they don't use that one more.

 

Law & Order loves to take place names and elevate them. Along with Stuyvesant High School, which is very prestigious, there is a Stuyvesant Town housing complex; Stuyvesant Square park; the neighborhood of Bedford–Stuyvesant in Brooklyn; and the hamlets of Stuyvesant and Stuyvesant Falls.

I don't recall Tompkins Square University, but there is a Tompkins Square Park. It wouldn't surprise me if they used it for another L&O university.

In the Cosby Show, Cliff Huxtable is a graduate of Hudson Medical School.

[ForeverAlone]

Tompkins Square University made appearances in season 14's "Girl Dishonored" and season 15's "Comic Perversion." There might be more episodes, but those two spring immediately to mind. 

[JyDanzig]

45 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

I agree that it would have been an interesting story if Mia's false allegation was more of the story, and we really saw Dominic wrestle with the dilemma of family vs justice. But the fact that Ethan eventually really did rape Mia shifted much of the blame for her irresponsible and frankly, illegal behavior. I think it could have been a more interesting, nuanced episode rather than the standard evil male rapist/blameless female victim with a conviction at the end, if Mia really had to take responsibility for her actions. Or even if they had left the rape in but have the defense attorney do her job like she would have in a better written episode, and refuse to put Ethan on the stand. His acquittal of an actual rape, because Mia lied about the first one, would be both a more realistic ending and one hell of a gut punch.

God, it could have been so good!  They could really have located an exceptional emotional climax of the story in her testimony, not his.  You would probably want to set it up that there was a ton of physical evidence with the real rape -- you would need that, to justify taking the case to trial at all, because only with a ton of physical evidence would there seem to be any chance of conviction.  (Let's say this is also taking place in the Mirror SVUniverse, in which the purpose of prosecutions is to convict the guilty, as opposed to the Actual SVUniverse, where the purpose is to obtain useless indictments for theft of dignity, and/or to allow people to Speak Their Truth, the less credible the better!)

But anyway, imagine what an incredible episode climax her testimony could have been, if they weren't afraid to actually deal with moral complexity in the victims!  She would be simultaneously reckoning with her extreme remorse for the first allegation, and getting racked over the coals for it, while also dealing with the trauma, and wondering how guilty she is for what happened... that's an incredible guest spot for some actress!

This idea they're pushing lately on this show, that by being raped everything you've ever done and every action you've ever taken is rendered benevolent and benign, once the mantle of victimhood descends it makes you forever noble and saintly... I think it's a corrosive, unhealthy worldview.  It does no favors to society or to rape victims, and I wish they'd stop deluding themselves that it does.

Edited March 8, 2018 by JyDanzig