S03.E13: Nathaniel is Irrelevant!

[Lebanna]

Well, ouch. That sucked. In fact, I feel like every moment after the time jump in which nobody was singing, has sucked.

After diagnosing Rebecca, this show needed to go darker and weirder, as has been said - we actually have no idea what her treatment plan has even been. This is someone who tried to kill herself and has a serious mental illness - I can't imagine that the psychological treatment you get after that isn't a goldmine of possibly comedy and touching sadness. I wish we had got that show.

There's a level of fear and avoidance here - we were working up to something for years, and it wasn't Rebecca in prison - it was how she got well, or how she got worse. But we don't even know how she would start doing either of those things, because fundamentally we have no idea what is going on with Rebecca anymore. We should have seen all those new experiences - why things could be different this time for her, or how she felt that actually, nothing had changed from her previous therapy experiences.

This huge part of her life, her treatment, is totally missing from the show except as a throwaway gag for two minutes an episode. The writers even said themselves that diagnosis is the beginning, not the end, but this season they got lazy and tried to skip the middle. Maybe they didn't know how to write that story because it's not in their life experience. That's what research is for. I didn't realize they had no time for that - it explains a lot. 

They've tried to change the show fundamentally while keeping it the same. And it has crashed and burned, because you can't do that. Plus, now they're in a world where shows like The Good Place are flipping the script all the time. They need to massively up their game. There was an opportunity for a giant brave leap. But they backed away.

That brave show they didn't make was the one I thought we would see this year. But the writers freaked out and dived for cover into complete irrelevancies like Daryl's baby - like anyone cares about that - they seem to have even forgotten that Daryl already has a child. Perhaps because that would just remind us how low the stakes are on this. He's already raised a kid who seemed to be fine (back when she existed) so now he has another one, who will probably also be ok. The end.

The entire story is a waste of time. He should have just got custody of his older daughter if they wanted to give him and WiJo child drama.

Oh no, wait, it isn't a waste of time because it gave Heather something to do. Because the management/Hector relationship story was so dull. Except that it didn't really as they skipped almost the whole ridiculous pregnancy (seriously, she was at the exact right moment of her cycle to conceive just when she volunteered to do it?). And what did this pregnancy story actually add to what we know about Heather? Nothing.

And Valencia is gay now. I think we may have even learned her girlfriend's name this episode. I can't remember. So that really made a difference. And they can argue that not making a difference is the point, but being viewed by everyone you know as different overnight is a huge deal. Being gay is normal. Coming out and saying that there's this whole part of you that is unknown to everyone including the most important people in your life could still be scary. They didn't do it because they'd already done it with Daryl. Because they don't want to point out that they are repeating themselves. Because they are repeating themselves.

And it's frankly insulting to suggest that there couldn't be another interesting coming out story that they could tell. Something being normal doesn't preclude it being interesting. And suddenly being an out gay woman would still fundamentally change a bunch of things for Valencia. She's suddenly become a minority in a whole new way. It would make her world a slightly different place. But we missed that whole experience for her and now that's a story they can't tell. Because they don't care about the character, but they think we do, so they throw us a tidbit of information here and there.

Nathaniel continues to be terrible. As in, so much worse than Trent, frankly. At least Trent can cook. And Josh is hopefully starring in something else next year, because he's not even really in this show anymore.

The stories we've seen in the second half of this season were safe and typical. No big surprises. (Come on, the big shock surrogate story? Friends literally did almost this exact story 20 years ago, and they did it better). 

The worst thing is, they've gone so far off track and wasted so much time, I don't really believe they can fix this now. It's a pity. About eight episodes ago, this show was on the verge of something new and amazing. And now we have Rebecca being set up by her own evil ex to go to prison for a ridiculously stupid crime. It's just so boring.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Lebanna

[wonderwoman]

On February 17, 2018 at 10:46 AM, DianeDobbler said:

 

The seasons don't have that many episodes, but as a former soap opera viewer, the entire back half of this season, and particularly the finale, has the feel of tapped out soap opera writers deconstructing everything and making overt what was only implicit, AND rushing things to shock value without earning them, because they're out of ideas. Trent was a brilliant character where there was the sense he could be dangerous, but also the idea that he was just on the spectrum, took advantage, but didn't have it in him to be the explicit cartoon monster he became in this finale. So they ruined that character. "I'm a sexy scary man?" Come on. Even Paula's reaction to Rebecca's lies felt overblown, because it came off one episode, with no season-long build up, so the whole thing felt over-acted and forced to me. It wasn't earned this time, not as far as building it up dramatically. I don't know, it felt both padded AND as if the writers were throwing every gimmick, cheap joke and cheap call back into the script they could.  

 

While you're correct that the story pacing hs been off this season, I'm not sure it's because the writers are tapped out (although I agree that's often the case with the daytime soaps). I actually think it's the opoposite problem: the writers have too much story they want to tell in too few episodes. because there's not enough time to build the story organically, things are rushed and forced,  which prevents viewers from experiencing the full emotional impact. 

[possibilities]

I'm really angry that they didn't do any research or make any plans for how to handle this season after diagnosis. That's just lazy BS. I wouldn't blame the CW if the show is cancelled.

[DianeDobbler]

6 hours ago, Lebanna said:

This huge part of her life, her treatment, is totally missing from the show except as a throwaway gag for two minutes an episode. The writers even said themselves that diagnosis is the beginning, not the end, but this season they got lazy and tried to skip the middle. Maybe they didn't know how to write that story because it's not in their life experience. That's what research is for. I didn't realize they had no time for that - it explains a lot. 

Yes! And we need it to ground and structure the character, and understand her and her behavior. I totally assumed the show would research this and make it integral to the second half of S3 - color me gobsmacked.

A lot of reviewers of the finale have pointed out that the past couple of episodes have been "set up/pay off" with no middle, but I really never expected this level of carelessness.

Quote

And Valencia is gay now. I think we may have even learned her girlfriend's name this episode. I can't remember. So that really made a difference. And they can argue that not making a difference is the point, but being viewed by everyone you know as different overnight is a huge deal. Being gay is normal. Coming out and saying that there's this whole part of you that is unknown to everyone including the most important people in your life could still be scary. They didn't do it because they'd already done it with Daryl. Because they don't want to point out that they are repeating themselves. Because they are repeating themselves.

Yeah. I also think they tried to make a bullshit virtue of their neglect. Valencia is bisexual - and we're not making a big deal because it's not a big deal!

Sorry, the tell for all shows is if a character gets airtime and writing. To pretend NOT writing for a character is some kind of virtue is the most self-serving kind of crap. They didn't have any material for her - and I don't know why - so they did this, didn't write it, and then patted themselves on the back because not writing it proved how inclusive they are. I got kind of worried about Valencia when her big song for the season was "This is my moment" and there was no comedic reason for the extended poop joke - usually a double meaning like that reverbs off something current with the character, but the poop joke had nothing to do with Valencia and didn't expand her nonexistent story. I remember also being irritated that CEG did nothing to disguise the fact that Valencia (Ruiz) obviously could not play the piano. They did so many shots of her very poorly faking it, and it's a show's job to cover up and finesse stuff like that. They didn't care enough, it was so obvious.

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I actually think it's the opoposite problem: the writers have too much story they want to tell in too few episodes. because there's not enough time to build the story organically, things are rushed and forced,  which prevents viewers from experiencing the full emotional impact. 

What story did CEG tell after her diagnosis? They failed to tell a lot of story - Valencia being bisexual, which nobody suspected if we go by Josh, and Darryl's baby, where they even blew right by Rebecca donating her egg? Darryl's plot defined: "The food is terrible and such small portions!" I'd bet anything that, like including Vinnie in "Fit Hot Guys" at the last minute, they made Valencia bi at the last minute because they had no ideas - too busy devoting the entire back half of the season to "Will Nathaniel and Rebecca ever get their act together and admit they're in love." 

There was also a whole bunch of  "Hey - viewers! Remember when we did this thing in one of the past seasons and it was really funny? We're visiting it again and telling the same jokes!"

In fairness, the show started doing one new thing at least, which was: "We think building up to a song is kind of a waste of time - let's just start launching right in instead!"

I should have known when "The First Penis I saw" was pretty much ALL the material Paula got in that weak episode where she ran into her former boyfriend, but it was really about Rebecca and Paula's dad, and then Paula realized she was happy w/how her life turned out. How much was that? Three scenes?

Edited February 19, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[txhorns79]

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That whole case was screwy. Where's the investigation? Don't these kind of things going through a process? Suddenly, Nathaniel is going to be representing her and the next scene is the court room? Shouldn't they be trying to find evidence? What about Trent's lawyer? It's not nearly as open-and-shut as this show would want us to believe. 

None of it makes sense.  Was there no investigation?  Did they just assume Rebecca went after Trent because they briefly dated?  Even if Rebecca was being arraigned the day after this all happened, is she really so dumb that she thinks taking responsibility is the same thing as pleading guilty to the most severe crime with which she could be charged?  Seriously, your friendship with Paula isn't worth that, Rebecca!   

And just to be clear on the timeline, was Heather really at court like a day after giving birth?    

[bleiby73]

There's a lot of negativity on this forum, so I'm not really enjoying reading it.  Crazy-ex Girlfriend brings me so much joy and I loved the finale and have enjoyed every episode of the three seasons (to varying degrees). It's a fairy tale and I have no problem going along with some of the farfetched plots. I love that Rebecca found required love with Nathaniel and yet has grown enough to realize that it isn't the answer to all her problems. She has to finally accept responsibility for her actions and will hopefully do so in Season 4. In related news, I just bought a ticket for the Crazy Ex Girlfriend live tour in Seattle on April 1st. I'm so excited! http://ew.com/tv/2018/02/12/crazy-ex-girlfriend-cast-tour/

[KingOfHearts]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

None of it makes sense.  Was there no investigation?  Did they just assume Rebecca went after Trent because they briefly dated?  Even if Rebecca was being arraigned the day after this all happened, is she really so dumb that she thinks taking responsibility is the same thing as pleading guilty to the most severe crime with which she could be charged?  Seriously, your friendship with Paula isn't worth that, Rebecca!   

Pleading guilty was just stupid. Did she really want to put that mark on her life just to prove to Paula she can take responsibility for her choices? That's totally in character for Rebecca, but I'm not sure if the show wanted us to see that as a good thing or not. It was very black and white - either plead guilty to accept responsibilities for your actions, or plead not guilty to say that "nothing was anybody's fault". They're two opposite extremes.

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  Was there no investigation?  Did they just assume Rebecca went after Trent because they briefly dated?

We were fed only by dialogue that we're expected to take as gospel truth from the characters, logic be damned.

What I would have preferred is something more elaborate from Trent that maybe went into S4, mirroring Rebecca's revenge from S3.

Edited February 19, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[AfterwardsTV]

I can't describe how happy I am that "Settle for Her" didn't make it to the screen. As if the Nathaniel/Mona dumpster fire of bad writing deserved to follow up one of Greg's most famous songs.

1. Why has he even been leading Mona on? When has Nathaniel been shown to have a problem being single? I could buy him being temporarily indecisive if it had not been EIGHT MONTHS.

2. Shouldn't Mona be the one singing to convince him away from Rebecca, like Greg was convincing Rebecca away from Josh?

3. "“Despite it all, if Rebecca called, I’d be there on bended knee.
Cause deep down I still hope that maybe she’d settle for…”

This is a trope CEG should be breaking. Wanting to run out on your girlfriend is not romantic.....

The other song that was almost the final of S3 "Everyone's Crazy" also feels like it would have missed the mark. "‘When you plead insanity, you’ll just be telling the truth. You’ve shown me I’m crazy. I’m in love with you, and that’s irrational, so I’m just as crazy as you".

Holy barf, this was dreck at first. The finale would be legit unsalvageable like this. Nathaniel has to be scrapped at the start of Season 4, he is effecting judgment in the writer's room. All I can think of is how much Josh should've remained relevant a little longer..for instance, swap it to Trent trying to kill Josh and a lot of this part of the story flows better. There were any number of reasons that Rebecca would've had a lot of blame for that. Trent could take her revenge quest too literally and try to win her over with that, or he could think eliminating Josh would lead to Rebecca's obsession turning to him. But Trent trying to kill a dude he's never met and never even been around to see Rebecca with, instead of just NOT handing Rebecca back the blackmail folder, was just nonsense from all payback standpoints. 

To those saying Rebecca had no responsibility for Trent's actions as they played out canonically, I disagree with that. She twisted an emotional knife into the mirror version of herself, and then just decided everything was going to be splendid despite escalating the situation. All she had to do was impart some therapy wisdom or compassion, but instead she resorted to treating him like he was less than a person and playing stupid scheme games with Paula. It's an example of her running from her problems by not dealing with them directly/maturely.

P.S. Naomi disappearing after that note Rebecca left still irritates me because everything we know about the character suggests she would've at least checked on Rebecca. Have a passing line of Rebecca saying she blocked Naomi from her life and/or that Paula filled her in. It's even more glaring when later on in the season the Garfunkel ring returns and out of nowhere becomes a fake without Rebecca seeking any explanation from her mother.

[txhorns79]

Quote

P.S. Naomi disappearing after that note Rebecca left still irritates me because everything we know about the character suggests she would've at least checked on Rebecca. Have a passing line of Rebecca saying she blocked Naomi from her life and/or that Paula filled her in.

I kept thinking: "Has Naomi even been told her daughter was charged with attempted murder?  What will she do when she finds out Rebecca pled guilty and will likely be going to jail?" 

[lexiexx]

I'm wondering if maybe the end of the show is that Rebecca is still in that mental institution and she has halluncinated/dreamed the whole show.  Or maybe Trent is imaginary, and she actually just shoved some random waiter over the wall.    It would be more entertaining than this--the show jumped the shark at the wedding episode IMO.   It would be hilarious if she was actually in court with Nathaniel because he was getting a restraining order against her.

[huahaha]

6 hours ago, AfterwardsTV said:

I can't describe how happy I am that "Settle for Her" didn't make it to the screen. As if the Nathaniel/Mona dumpster fire of bad writing deserved to follow up one of Greg's most famous songs.

1. Why has he even been leading Mona on? When has Nathaniel been shown to have a problem being single? I could buy him being temporarily indecisive if it had not been EIGHT MONTHS.

2. Shouldn't Mona be the one singing to convince him away from Rebecca, like Greg was convincing Rebecca away from Josh?

3. "“Despite it all, if Rebecca called, I’d be there on bended knee.
Cause deep down I still hope that maybe she’d settle for…”

This is a trope CEG should be breaking. Wanting to run out on your girlfriend is not romantic.....

The other song that was almost the final of S3 "Everyone's Crazy" also feels like it would have missed the mark. "‘When you plead insanity, you’ll just be telling the truth. You’ve shown me I’m crazy. I’m in love with you, and that’s irrational, so I’m just as crazy as you".

Where are you getting this? These weren't in the actual episode. Are they extras somewhere? As rough as this season has been, I hardly think it's fair to fault them for ideas they chose not to air.

[Eeksquire]

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Pleading guilty was just stupid.

Agreed.  The worst thing about this plot - for me - is that it undermines Rebecca's character.  Apparently, the writers want us to believe that Rebecca is going to plead guilty to murder as a way of taking responsibility for all the other things she's done wrong in her life.  That's not how anything works.  Worse, though, is that it takes one of the fundamental truths of the series - that Rebecca is a very good lawyer* - and makes her seem like she understands nothing at all about the legal system.  If you plead not guilty, you still have options, including the ability to mount a defense, which would be warranted because of Trent's threats.  Or even insanity if you decided to go that way later on.  If you plead guilty - without even a plea deal! - you're really stuck.  

And we're meant to believe that Paula, of all people, is looking on approvingly at this decision? Paula who justified and participated in all of the craziness with Josh for so long and wouldn't leave Rebecca alone post-suicide attempt, is ready to let her go to prison because she lied and then felt bad about it and confessed?  It just doesn't ring true.  Reading the interviews, it's clear that they really blew the second half of the season and then had to hastily cobble together something for the last couple of episodes to de-emphasize Nathaniel and get the Paula-Rebecca relationship back front and center. 

*I think the show has been pretty clear that Rebecca is both a very good lawyer AND terribly unsuited for the profession. 

[DianeDobbler]

13 hours ago, AfterwardsTV said:

Holy barf, this was dreck at first. The finale would be legit unsalvageable like this. Nathaniel has to be scrapped at the start of Season 4, he is effecting judgment in the writer's room.

I was actually a little worried about this during some of the live performances, when Brosh McKenna and Bloom would squeal at everything Scott Michael Thomas did and said. It's like they thought they hit the jackpot. Brosh McKenna even said he gave the best audition she'd ever seen in her career. WTF? Given the script, I don't think that's even possible. They also said that the only reason he didn't get Greg when he'd auditioned for THAT part was he was so hot it would be too obvious the character was a love interest. 

Setting aside that, no, he was not "too hot" for that role, something was askew. I think maybe they weren't sure how to play out Rebecca's post-diagnosis, and were so sold on SMT they just leaned in on him and overhyped him in their heads, and failed to realize that trope-wise, they were getting themselves into trouble.  His character, and the function he's supposed to play in the story, are just a big mess of contradictions. Again, that is a common soap opera pitfall. Writers who are tapped out grab onto some newbie and over-write them because coming up with fresh ideas for existing characters and relationships is too much like work.

None of this is on SMT. When asked about his audition for Greg, he has demurred and said that he believes they were looking for someone with a stronger singing voice than he had. (And besides, it was obvious from Greg's first line that he was a potential love interest!). He was asked if the Nathaniel audition called for a super hot guy, and he said no, it called for a WASP guy with a sense of superiority. 

I believe SMT, so I think the show runners were hyping him for some agenda of their own.

I also have come to believe the show needs Vincent Rodriguez III and Josh more than the writers and even maybe many viewers believe. He was really a great counterpart to Rebecca and made a lot of nonsense work that would have sunk another character.

I am also thinking the reason Josh punching Nathaniel was so satisfying to many people was a visceral reaction to the nasty and smug way Josh has been written all season. Like - this guy! Can you believe that's who Rebecca liked? He's a JOKE!

It was only in the "Trent" episode that the writers woke up and gave him a break via the comments made by Valencia's girlfriend. One would think that Josh had done all the shit to Rebecca, instead of Rebecca having done all the shit to Josh. I am sick and tired of hearing that he dumped her at the altar at a wedding that had no freaking business happening. Any less nice guy would have run away weeks prior, because she was out of her mind (and emotionally cheating on him). I'm sick of him getting dragged for running away when that's all Rebecca ever does, one way or the other, and a bit tired of his various odd jobs and gigs being played for a joke when Rebecca is, and remains, responsible for him losing a job he liked and was good at.

6 hours ago, huahaha said:

Where are you getting this? These weren't in the actual episode. Are they extras somewhere? As rough as this season has been, I hardly think it's fair to fault them for ideas they chose not to air.

These things that didn't make air were discussed extensively by the writers and Aline Brosh McKenna in a post-show article. Since a lot of this thread is discussing and critiquing the finale, that includes critiquing the mindset and ideas that led to this finale. A lot of that came to the fore in quotes from Brosh McKenna and the writers - revealing their perspective on the storyline. "Settle for her" was cut for time. The writers - correctly, IMO - felt it wasn't needed. It was also going to include a tap dance, but Scott Michael Thomas was too sick to really pull it off.  Still, the mindset that created the number is still the way the writers view Nathaniel and Mona.

AfterwardsTV, I actually think your idea of Trent trying to kill Josh WOULD have flowed better, for Trent, Rebecca, and the show. Rebecca single-mindedly going after Josh til Trent picks up the ball and thinks he can get in good with her by finishing him off. THAT's when she shoves Trent off the roof and has to reckon with the entire Josh thing (which she really hasn't done).  I think she would have borne more legitimate guilt that way. It would have played better than a lot of exposition delivered during Rebecca and Nathaniel's pillow-talk where Nathaniel has arranged to kill, deport, and ruin Josh's family, and Rebecca has to call it off. And we're left not knowing if it's a joke or a real thing, and the show is trying to make it both.

Man, dumpster fire is right. :(

Edited February 19, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[srpturtle80]

*Scott Michael Foster :)

[DianeDobbler]

On 2/18/2018 at 4:46 PM, Lebanna said:

 But we don't even know how she would start doing either of those things, because fundamentally we have no idea what is going on with Rebecca anymore.

I think that's why I dislike her now, and find her smug and nasty. Her vulnerability is nonexistent. There's no touchstone. We just don't know when she's doing something that's ok, and when she's doing something that's backsliding. Her attitude towards Trent, within the universe of the show, was total asshole. "Asshole" is also kind of an underpinning of the tone of the show since her diagnosis, frankly. Very self-satisfied.

I was on her team the entire first two and a half seasons. I never lost track of why she did what she did, no matter how terrible it might have been. I always saw the moment when she refused to deal with her inner life; I always saw what triggered her behavior. She was transparent, you could see how irresistible her feelings were, how things affected her.  

59 minutes ago, srpturtle80 said:

*Scott Michael Foster :)

Thanks! I keep thinking Scott Michael Thomas for some reason.

[txhorns79]

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Thanks! I keep thinking Scott Michael Thomas for some reason.

Kristin Scott Thomas?  C. Thomas Howell? 

Quote

And we're meant to believe that Paula, of all people, is looking on approvingly at this decision? Paula who justified and participated in all of the craziness with Josh for so long and wouldn't leave Rebecca alone post-suicide attempt, is ready to let her go to prison because she lied and then felt bad about it and confessed?  It just doesn't ring true. 

 

Yeah, I can't for a minute buy that Paula is fine with Rebecca pleading guilty to attempted murder as some kind of signal that Rebecca is accepting responsibility for her actions.  I mean, that truly would be insane that she'd be fine with Rebecca destroying her life for something she didn't even do. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Yeah, I can't for a minute buy that Paula is fine with Rebecca pleading guilty to attempted murder as some kind of signal that Rebecca is accepting responsibility for her actions.  I mean, that truly would be insane that she'd be fine with Rebecca destroying her life for something she didn't even do. 

Rebecca's speech made it quite explicit that she thought she should accept responsibility for her actions. Since Rachel Rebecca didn't confide in Paula about her motives before she attacked Trent, Paula could well believe that Rebecca is guilty of attempting to murder Trent and approve of her facing up to her guilt in that regard. I'm not sure we can really know at this point because it wasn't clear what happened or how much time had passed between the incident and the plea, and what Paula knows or believes she knows.

19 hours ago, AfterwardsTV said:

 Nathaniel has to be scrapped at the start of Season 4, he is effecting judgment in the writer's room. All I can think of is how much Josh should've remained relevant a little longer..for instance, swap it to Trent trying to kill Josh and a lot of this part of the story flows better. There were any number of reasons that Rebecca would've had a lot of blame for that. Trent could take her revenge quest too literally and try to win her over with that, or he could think eliminating Josh would lead to Rebecca's obsession turning to him. But Trent trying to kill a dude he's never met and never even been around to see Rebecca with, instead of just NOT handing Rebecca back the blackmail folder, was just nonsense from all payback standpoints.

I like the idea of Josh instead of Nathaniel as the victim, and toyed with the option of Nathaniel instead of Trent as the threat -- although I have difficulty imagining the circumstance in which Nathaniel would take action to try to kill Josh directly himself instead of ordering a hit.

I have been trying to figure out what it was about "Nothing is Ever Anyone's Fault" that didn't give me what it seems clear they were going for. At first I wondered if it was the music that undermined the idea that Rebecca and Nathaniel were obviously wrong, but now I am thinking that maybe they should have limited the title and the lyrics to justifying specific things that they had done themselves and not broadened it to cover everyone's behaviour ever, including John Wayne Gacy and Hitler. I mean I know those were in there to tip me off to the fact that they were being wrong, but it didn't really help me.

Edited February 20, 2018 by SomeTameGazelle
Mixed up actor name with character name

[Mockingbird]

I follow the show on Instagram, and I’m horrified at all of the comments on a clip from “Nothing Is Ever Anyone’s Fault” about how sweet and perfect Rebecca and Nathaniel are together. Oh man. 

[DianeDobbler]

1 minute ago, Mockingbird said:

I follow the show on Instagram, and I’m horrified at all of the comments on a clip from “Nothing Is Ever Anyone’s Fault” about how sweet and perfect Rebecca and Nathaniel are together. Oh man. 

 

Well, CEG wouldn't have changed the final two episodes if their research showed the fans were on board. The web is its own thing - most viewers aren't on the web. CEG has what - less than a million viewers? There are tracking programs - during this part of the show, how many were watching? Where did viewing spike? Etc. It's not simply a gut call.

Sure, Brosh McKenna describes reading the two final scripts to an exhausted Bloom, and Bloom having a negative reaction to everything, so that they re-set everything. It's a nice story, and I do believe it, but no matter what Bloom's reaction, if the data had reported something else, they'd have gone ahead with the two final episodes "as is."

I don't blame some fans for thinking Rebecca and Nathaniel are sweet and perfect. The relationship is a mess, and CEG has played both ends against the middle. Are Nathaniel's bad actions for real or just comedy? Were his OTT decisions re Josh's family who he really is (a monster, basically) or a joke? What about the poor little rich boy Nathaniel - is he getting validation from Rebecca for his brattiness or is his heart growing three times its size? What about the Nathaniel we're meant to equate with obvious good guy WhiJo? It's completely unclear. Viewers can choose what they want to believe - CEG hasn't made a choice.

Edited February 20, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[possibilities]

That's essentially the problem. On the one hand, they've been selling Nathanial and Rebecca as true love, and on the other hand, they're portraying them as sociopathic almost-murderers (Rebecca's hit on Mona, Nathanial's hit on Josh's grandfather-- and Nathanial never even expressed remorse for that or the idea of trying to get Josh's father deported). Which is it?? We always knew Rebecca's feelings for Josh were delusional, and that Greg's attraction to Rebecca was self-immolating. The writing for Nathanial is just really bizarre. I can imagine if you want to ignore the horrible stuff and just go for the romantic angle, the show has given you fodder for that point of view. Josh punched Nathanial, but he showed up for Rebecca's court date. Paula is angry because Rebecca lied to her and manipulated her, but she didn't seem to be phased by the more seriously horrible stuff. We see that Trent is clearly nuts. But they don't make it as obvious that they think Nathaniel is a crazy fucked up destructive person, they act like they just think he's kind of a woobie, a sad lovesick man whose parents were cold to him and who somehow was magically changed by meeting Rebecca, even though there's no evidence he feels at lal bad about any of his wrong behaviors.

[dubbel zout]

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

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Thanks! I keep thinking Scott Michael Thomas for some reason.

Kristin Scott Thomas?  C. Thomas Howell? 

Philip Michael Thomas, obviously. 

[Irlandesa]

On 2/19/2018 at 12:09 PM, DianeDobbler said:

They also said that the only reason he didn't get Greg when he'd auditioned for THAT part was he was so hot it would be too obvious the character was a love interest. 

Oh that's so frustrating.  First, mileage may vary about who people find more attractive but ultimately, Santino isn't exactly an ogre. Second, as you point out, he was a potential love interest from the very first episode.  Heck, I believe original pilot made for Showtime ended with her giving him a teary blow job.

[DianeDobbler]

Not only is Santino not exactly an ogre, but SMF isn't exactly the Adonis CEG insists he is either. 

I didn't consider until recently how problematic Nathaniel's character has been. I had an easier time dealing with Paula's crimes, since hers are pretty much all data manipulation via her apparently wizard-like mastery of all things digital. But when Rebecca put a hit out on Mona - and I can't remember why she wanted to do that - she was supposedly wacked out on hormones. When she wanted Nathaniel to help her get revenge on Josh, she was en route to a nervous breakdown/attempted suicide. What was Nathaniel's excuse, though? I took it as an extended joke when it aired, but since they've called back to it and made it an actual thing, I'm wondering why it's supposedly ok, and exactly what Rebecca's therapists would tell her about being in a relationship with this guy. 

Anyway, Rebecca's confession was far from heartfelt. She dealt out her list of transgressions and was very cavalier.

Edited February 20, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[possibilities]

Even the hormone excuse is BS, though. Yes, hormones affect mood. But plenty of people have fertility treatments without going the homicide route. It's like the twinkie defense.

[Blakeston]

They could have reached the same endpoint in a much more organic way.

At the end of the previous episode, Rebecca refused to give in to Trent's blackmail threats any longer. That would give him ample motive to tell the police about Rebecca hiring a hitman to kill Mona. And that would put Rebecca in a situation where it would make perfect sense for her to plead guilty to attempted murder. She'd actually be guilty - and it would be refreshing to hear her own up to it instead of making excuses

But instead of going with that plotline, which would actually make sense, they chose to have her plead guilty for...justifiably saving someone's life.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

Anyway, Rebecca's confession was far from heartfelt. She dealt out her list of transgressions and was very cavalier.

It was another instance of Rebecca selfishly attempting to assuage her guilt.  She goes about these artificial solutions instead of putting the work in to actually fix the problems in her relationships. 

This show is sending way too many mixed signals. Nathaniel's a nice guy, except he isn't. Rebecca's come so far, except she hasn't. Rebecca is taking responsibility for her actions, except she isn't really. If I'm not supposed to be rooting for her, what am I supposed to be rooting for? If she gets out of jail she's just back to where she was before this episode. There's this push for Nathaniel because even the writers realize this show needs some kind of grounded goal.

I'm not sure why this episode is titled, "Nathaniel is Irrelevant." He's clearly not.

Edited February 20, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[txhorns79]

Quote

If I'm not supposed to be rooting for her, what am I supposed to be rooting for?

At this point, maybe Heather or Valencia?  They seem to be the most stable out of all these people, and are doing well in their jobs and personal lives.     

[KingOfHearts]

42 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

At this point, maybe Heather or Valencia?  They seem to be the most stable out of all these people, and are doing well in their jobs and personal lives.     

They're not working to obtain anything significant, though. They have no real conflict. It's not so much that the goal needs to be stable or healthy, it just needs to be relatable and straight forward. With the Josh pursuit, even though it was foolish, it was still the standard, get-the-guy/get-the-girl story. 

[MilkMachine]

On 2/19/2018 at 6:56 AM, lexiexx said:

I'm wondering if maybe the end of the show is that Rebecca is still in that mental institution and she has halluncinated/dreamed the whole show.  Or maybe Trent is imaginary, and she actually just shoved some random waiter over the wall.    It would be more entertaining than this--the show jumped the shark at the wedding episode IMO.   It would be hilarious if she was actually in court with Nathaniel because he was getting a restraining order against her.

This is where I am right now, too. I feel a little silly, but it's almost the only thing that fits. I'm not sure the exact timeline of when she was supposed to have gone there--the whole thing? or did all of this start right after Josh left her at the altar?--but I'm thinking that what we're seeing is not linear. Maybe she's not in the mental institution, but she and Trent are actually the same person and the stuff that Trent is doing is actually stuff that Rebecca has done or tried to do. Maybe she was the one who was (supposedly?) trying to kill Nathaniel, or someone else, and that's why she plead guilty? If that even really happened?

The things from this episode that got me thinking about: the fact that Trent was appearing in mirrors and other weird places before he showed up in person later in the episode. The fact that Rebecca said she was having a disassociative episode. Then I started thinking about how foreboding it felt when they flashed to her in a mental institution at the end of S2, and how quickly they skipped past that at the start of S3. The fact that many of the other characters have seemed like cartoon characters of themselves this season. Nathaniel, for example--regardless of their chemistry, it has bugged me all season that he has been so unconditionally accepting of Rebecca. It seems sweet, but out of character. Valencia got an out-of-left-field happy ending. Josh got knocked down a few pegs but remains in Rebecca's corner despite their past together. Even Darryl and Heather have had semi-unexpected resolutions to their life probs, Darryl with the baby and Heather with moving on quickly from her "I'm a student" transition and finding happiness in a career. It also explains why none of Rebecca's care providers seem to notice that she's still not well. The male psychiatrist held Rebecca's feet to the fire a few times, but in a very gentle, low-stakes way. Dr. Akopian gave the really surprising (and confusing to me) advice that Rebecca pursue Nathaniel, which was exactly what Rebecca wanted to hear. Trent's cartoonishness and rapid escalation--it would make more sense if Rebecca was the one who was blackmailing and had a creepy storage unit, if she is truly untreated and in some kind of spiral.

In some ways it would be fun if this theory turns out to be true. In other ways, it would be disappointing because it would be a deviation from the show-runner's commitment to handling mental illness in a realistic and relatable way, although arguably they have already effed that up even if my ridiculous theory is completely off-base and this has all happened as it was shown on screen.

[DianeDobbler]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

This show is sending way too many mixed signals. Nathaniel's a nice guy, except he isn't. Rebecca's come so far, except she hasn't. Rebecca is taking responsibility for her actions, except she isn't really. If I'm not supposed to be rooting for her, what am I supposed to be rooting for? If she gets out of jail she's just back to where she was before this episode. There's this push for Nathaniel because even the writers realize this show needs some kind of grounded goal.

Did Rebecca even run her confession past either of her therapists, or was her decision made in the unmoderated gathering of the group?

From what I've read, the main idea CEG had for the post-diagnosis Rebecca was "backsliding." She'd be tempted by a lot of stuff, primarily the "Strong physical connection" they tell us she has with Nathaniel. So her getting better would be a slow process.

All of that is fine, but it also needs a framework. We can't just have a show of Rebecca acting out all over the place and it being, oh, they're using green light and nutty music - guess that means this isn't healthy! Or the whatever mess that is Nathan's character - it's a healthy relationship if she only had the courage to risk it, except for the parts where he doesn't care she put a hit out on his girlfriend because he was going to kill Josh's grandfather, deport his dad, and ruin his sister's academic career? We have no organizing principle anymore.

This thing they did at the end - Rebecca "Taking responsibility" for something she was more or less justified doing (forget the plot ridiculousness, just the math of the thing itself - Trent about to kill Nathaniel/Rebecca pushes Trent) is a common cop out and something I would have thought was completely beneath Crazy Ex Girlfriend. She needs to take responsibility for bad stuff she actually did, like when she sang her confession to Josh. Of course, she bore no consequences for that either, just managed to wreck his employment and trash his life so he'd look like the bad guy and she could CYA. The show has shuffled in a few moments of what we're meant to believe is guilty conscience, but the way Rebecca has responded to those moments of conscience has been so callous that her supposed guilty conscience seems like another facet of her illness, not something that's pulling her back to sanity.

Who do I root for? Honestly, it has become Josh. And Paula. Paula was mostly minding her business in the back half of the season - I think. After the o.d., we saw Rebecca work with George instead of Paula, and Paula more focused on her own life and job. I also root for Valencia but she's never on.

ETA, I have no idea whatsoever why Josh Chan was in the courtroom. He and Rebecca have not maintained a friendship. His actual friends, like WhiJo, are barely friends w/Rebecca themselves. Sure, Nathaniel quickly claiming responsibility for the various hits on Josh's family prevented Josh from absorbing that Nathaniel was following Rebecca's requests, but there is no relationship there.

Quote

I'm not sure why this episode is titled, "Nathaniel is Irrelevant." He's clearly not.

Me neither.

Edited February 20, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Who do I root for? Honestly, it has become Josh. And Paula. Paula was mostly minding her business in the back half of the season - I think. After the o.d., we saw Rebecca work with George instead of Paula, and Paula more focused on her own life and job. I also root for Valencia but she's never on.

I could root for these characters if they had stronger over-arching plots. Darryl was the only character with anything substantial, but it just wasn't interesting. Heather was very involved with it, but it doesn't necessarily add anything to her character's journey. Most of the side character stories were brought up and resolved within the same episode. (Paula being the office bitch, Heather going corporate, etc.)

Also - what the heck is going on with Paula's family? Is everything perfect at home now?

Edited February 20, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[AfterwardsTV]

6 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Not only is Santino not exactly an ogre, but SMF isn't exactly the Adonis CEG insists he is either. 

 What was Nathaniel's excuse, though? I took it as an extended joke when it aired, but since they've called back to it and made it an actual thing, I'm wondering why it's supposedly ok, and exactly what Rebecca's therapists would tell her about being in a relationship with this guy. 

Anyway, Rebecca's confession was far from heartfelt. She dealt out her list of transgressions and was very cavalier.

"To be fair, I was promised sex". 

How did Rebecca expect to manage 3 people's feelings at once? It wouldn't have been hard to arrange one-on-one contact, but then the show can't reduce the boy problems to being quick gags. She also could've made an awkward call to Greg and confessed the father banging. We didn't need to see or hear anything from Fontana, but at least we'd know the character knew.

3 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

ETA, I have no idea whatsoever why Josh Chan was in the courtroom. He and Rebecca have not maintained a friendship. His actual friends, like WhiJo, are barely friends w/Rebecca themselves. Sure, Nathaniel quickly claiming responsibility for the various hits on Josh's family prevented Josh from absorbing that Nathaniel was following Rebecca's requests, but there is no relationship there.

"I'm not sure why this episode is titled, "Nathaniel is Irrelevant." He's clearly not."

Me neither.

I don't understand why the show didn't keep Josh/Rebecca separated for the rest of the season. Wait until late into Season 4 to have that growth talk if you're going to do it. Josh's epiphany of gratitude was not natural writing at all(if he ever felt like she helped him, it wouldn't be until far into the future when things worked out for him. Why is he thanking her for putting him in the situation of having to move in with his friend's mother?). It was a rushed attempt at closure for the two used as a segue into Rebecca making a decision about Nathaniel (a decision she goes back on lol). 

The words "Nathaniel Is Irrelevant" are never spoken. Unlike its predecessor, I don't see how it makes that declarative statement in Rebecca's mind either. Nathaniel can visit her in prison or she can expect to go back to him after her sentence is carried out. Dismissing his legal advice (and his current moral views?) is not closing the book on him as a romantic partner. I don't want an arc in Season 4 about him trying to become a better man for her, but that's what they've left it most open as since they couldn't keep Nathaniel/Mona moved in together.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, AfterwardsTV said:

Dismissing his legal advice (and his current moral views?) is not closing the book on him as a romantic partner.

IIRC, she even apologized to him for not pleading not guilty.

[possibilities]

They really effed up. If I ran the network, I wouldn't renew this show if I didn't get a very detailed, well-planned map of what they planned to do to fix it. I don't think I've ever seen a show undermine it's entire premise and sow complete chaos in its third season. They were always tightly written and well-thought out. It's really a big fall.

You can do a swerve and still make sense (The Good Place does it all the time), but this was just sloppy, chaotic, and badly conceived.

[SmithW6079]

I dislike Paula most of the time, but her behaving as the most aggrieved "victim" of Rebecca was one of the most self-centered things I've seen the character do. Rebecca was the impetus for potential physical harm to Josh's grandfather, deportation of his father; she put out a hit on Nathaniel's girlfriend; but Paula's the one worst victim because Rebecca lied to her? Paula's committed felonies in the past, she was a despicable person to Greg, to anyone who "stood in the way" of Rebecca and Josh, but I'm supposed to feel bad for her now? Plus, the actress's acting was just so over the top it was hilariously bad. 

Even though they've made Josh even stupider than Dog Josh, he's still the character I like the most, plus Hector and maybe Heather. 

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, AfterwardsTV said:

I don't understand why the show didn't keep Josh/Rebecca separated for the rest of the season. Wait until late into Season 4 to have that growth talk if you're going to do it. Josh's epiphany of gratitude was not natural writing at all(if he ever felt like she helped him, it wouldn't be until far into the future when things worked out for him. Why is he thanking her for putting him in the situation of having to move in with his friend's mother?). It was a rushed attempt at closure for the two used as a segue into Rebecca making a decision about Nathaniel (a decision she goes back on lol). 

I agree with this. The show wants to deal with the consequences of Rebecca's awful behavior, and yet the truly horrific things she's done to Josh are just glossed over. Except for the things that were primarily someone else's fault (ie, Nathaniel's.)

And it isn't just a Rebecca issue either. The awful things that Paula did to Valencia were glossed over with Paula's "sorry Valencia, but a lot was going on in my life" explanation. And Valencia was okay with that? What the hell?

As for sleeping with Greg's father, I'm not sure why the show treats that as such a horribly low moment for Rebecca. It was pathetic, but she doesn't need anyone's forgiveness for doing it. and she's done much more lowly things in her time.

[MilkMachine]

8 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

As for sleeping with Greg's father, I'm not sure why the show treats that as such a horribly low moment for Rebecca. It was pathetic, but she doesn't need anyone's forgiveness for doing it. and she's done much more lowly things in her time.

My best guess is they're hoping to get Greg back in the 4th season and they don't want us to forget how Rebecca fucked that up. But it's true that they are hitting us over the head with it. It might have more impact if they let us forget for a second.

[DianeDobbler]

It's been mentioned that the first two and a half seasons had a goal - win Josh. It had two obstacles - one being he was in a relationship, the other being Rebecca was unraveling and didn't really want Josh. The obstacles sort of secured the story and reinforced each other - the narrative could go all over the map and remain coherent. 

It seems to me the goal for the half season and Season 4 is Rebecca wants to get better. CEG has failed to establish that in any way. She feels guilty and handles it like an ass, she does a lot of grandstanding, she tries to fast talk the people in her group when the therapist isn't around, she's still fast talking Akopian - and I don't recall a single moment other than the one with all the parallels between Nathaniel and Josh where Rebecca took her recovery seriously. And all of those parallels have evaporated since immediately after that we did an eight month time jump and her feelings for Nathaniel became real. 

You can't have a push without a pull. If Rebecca truly wanted to get better, then her backsliding would impact her. She'd feel distress and fear - two emotions that gave the first couple of seasons a lot of juice. But as far as I can tell, her recovery is a game to her, she's impatient with it, and it's just another angle to manipulate. Any time CEG has paid lip service to recovery, they've tied it into her relationship with Nathaniel. Worse, abruptly, her NOT being with Nathaniel was a sign of her either denying her recovery, or not feeling secure in it.  When previously, she SHOULDN'T be with him cause she was repeating her Josh pattern. Yeah, an 8 month jump, but there was no attempt to tie the two angles on Nathaniel together and justify the reversal. Further muddying the waters was he is as poorly written as everyone says he is, has no stance on Rebecca's horrific treatment of other people, including his own girlfriend, he's overly glib, and we don't know where the hell he's coming from except that as long as he has Rebecca, he doesn't give two shits. And where the hell does THAT come from? His reasons for wanting to be with her are inconsistent.

If Rebecca were invested in her recovery, which she certainly is not, any time she felt the pull towards backsliding, we should be able to see her Super Ego, informed by her new awareness, attempt to head her ID or her impulses or her dysfunctional needs/wants off at the pass. Emergency calls to the therapist even - heartfelt ones. Or to a supportive member of group. Not just cause she'd be backsliding, but because she knew she'd feel like crap if she gave in to old habits, and she dreads feeling that way. But then she gives in, and she does feel like crap. That's what we should be seeing.

Remember pre-diagnosis, how she'd crash after a manic episode? Out would come the wine, the living room would only be lit by the TV, she's in sweats, etc.? I don't mean do that again, but man, show something of the STRUGGLE to recover. Not this glib shit where they try to cue us with call backs to when the show had a heart, play "Stupid bitch" but have guilty Rebecca cleanse her guilt by calling three people into a conference room, blindsiding them with lists of stuff she's done to them (so she's also violating their individual privacy), and then having no cares about how anyone reacts except Paula. Well, Nathaniel literally didn't care - again, nothing affects him whatsoever where Rebecca is concerned, so her confession didn't matter. Paula had an OTT meltdown, and of course there was no point in confessing even more shit to Josh because Rebecca couldn't care less how he receives the news. 

I don't recall that the confession came with an apology either.

Edited February 21, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[DianeDobbler]

1 hour ago, SmithW6079 said:

I dislike Paula most of the time, but her behaving as the most aggrieved "victim" of Rebecca was one of the most self-centered things I've seen the character do. Rebecca was the impetus for potential physical harm to Josh's grandfather, deportation of his father; she put out a hit on Nathaniel's girlfriend; but Paula's the one worst victim because Rebecca lied to her? Paula's committed felonies in the past, she was a despicable person to Greg, to anyone who "stood in the way" of Rebecca and Josh, but I'm supposed to feel bad for her now? Plus, the actress's acting was just so over the top it was hilariously bad. 

Even though they've made Josh even stupider than Dog Josh, he's still the character I like the most, plus Hector and maybe Heather. 

I like Paula, but you've made good points, particularly her blowing off all of Rebecca's other heinous actions to focus on the least of Rebecca's crimes, the fact that she lied to Paula.

I found her outrage a bit OTT but I didn't put it on the acting but the script and direction. The show was desperately trying to inflate the importance of the Paula/Rebecca rift without having done the work to earn it, and I just think they played it up to let us know this was a big deal. The acting would have been fine with a build up. Given the script, the organic way to act it should have been lower key, but I have a feeling the show runners wanted it big because they were trying to get over and convince us of something they hadn't properly set up.

[possibilities]

Even Rebecca's occasional flashes of guilt and insight into herself are not new and therefore to me don't indicate recovery. She previously had those all the time: she's the villain in her own story, remember? She's a stupid bitch. She's always had moments of remorse and guilt and awareness of her dysfunctions. She's always apologized and confessed and made gestures toward doing the right thing. She's even made attempts at amends. Her entire relationship with Valencia is an example of that.

She has a label now, but I think she's more dysfunctional. She used to actually help people sometimes, as with the lawsuit over the water issue. Lately she's not working at all as far as I can tell, and she's ONLY been shown to be chasing or avoiding Nathanial, more or less.

[AllyB]

3 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I like Paula, but you've made good points, particularly her blowing off all of Rebecca's other heinous actions to focus on the least of Rebecca's crimes, the fact that she lied to Paula.

Just think about this but if I was Paula I'd have been very upset at having been lied to but while I was quietly digesting that confession I'd have taken in that Rebecca recently took out a hit on Mona and that she and Nathaniel planned to have Josh's grandfather killed and father deported. (The latter actually being all Nathaniel as Rebecca had no idea he'd go so dark and she told him to call it off immediately once she knew his plans.) But from Paula's perspective at that meeting they are all things Rebecca has just confessed to. Paula would have been totally justified in walking out and never speaking to Rebecca again. She'd have been justified in going to the police out of fear of what could happen to her and her family if Rebecca turned that darkness on her.

I don't think Paula was OTT for being upset, I'd have been truly upset and scared in Paula's shoes. But she was upset at the wrong thing as 'you lied to me' would have to totally faded in comparison to 'you are someone who has repeatedly come close to murder.' The worry at being lied to would be more, 'I've been complicit in so many of your escapades and you are still still desperate to involve me, what happens when I stop.'

[quangtran]

I didn't love this episode, but me ranking it a 7/10 means I'll dissagree with most of the complaints, starting with...

On 2/19/2018 at 12:11 PM, DianeDobbler said:

 I got kind of worried about Valencia when her big song for the season was "This is my moment" and there was no comedic reason for the extended poop joke - usually a double meaning like that reverbs off something current with the character, but the poop joke had nothing to do with Valencia and didn't expand her nonexistent story. I remember also being irritated that CEG did nothing to disguise the fact that Valencia (Ruiz) obviously could not play the piano. They did so many shots of her very poorly faking it, and it's a show's job to cover up and finesse stuff like that. They didn't care enough, it was so obvious.

I can't consider it an insult when the poop song sits comfortable next to Darryl's sperm song and Paula's songs about penises and the vagina. And I always thought the fake piano playing was part of the joke.

Quote

As for sleeping with Greg's father, I'm not sure why the show treats that as such a horribly low moment for Rebecca. It was pathetic, but she doesn't need anyone's forgiveness for doing it. and she's done much more lowly things in her time.

I think it was more about her unburdening all her wrong-doings, and writing that one on all three sheets to make up for Greg not being there.

Quote

But the writers freaked out and dived for cover into complete irrelevancies like Daryl's baby - like anyone cares about that - they seem to have even forgotten that Daryl already has a child. Perhaps because that would just remind us how low the stakes are on this. He's already raised a kid who seemed to be fine (back when she existed) so now he has another one, who will probably also be ok. The end.

Have to disagree with this whole paragraph. I didn't care for this storyline either, but how were they diving into irrelevancies when it was his main plot this entire season AND was set up last season? People already having one child has never precluded them from wanting another. No big reason is needed for Darryl wanting another kid, he just does. My brother is working on having another for the exact same reason as Darryl in that he loves being a dad. They haven't forgotten Madison, and she's has appeared in the same amount of episodes as previous seasons: one. 

Quote

Not only is Santino not exactly an ogre, but SMF isn't exactly the Adonis CEG insists he is either. 

SMF isn't a 10 (imo), but can play one for comedic purposes. Someone like Santino would not have been asked to participate in Fit Hot Guys Have Problems Too. Yes, people love his voice, find him charming and good looking in a non-threatening kind of way, but I read so many comments back in the day about how he is not conventionally handsome enough to play the Prince in the Broadway production of Cinderella.

Quote

I believe SMT, so I think the show runners were hyping him for some agenda of their own.

I see no agenda. They simply really like SMF and I believe it because I think he's been surprisingly strong since his debut. He's also been a huge supporter in a way that Santino never was, in that's he's participated in every event to promote the show, so of course they'd love him.

Quote

I'm not sure why this episode is titled, "Nathaniel is Irrelevant." He's clearly not.

Nathaniel's presence was mostly a fake-out, and I saw that sweeping ballad was a giant "up yours" to any potential shipping. 

[DianeDobbler]

7 minutes ago, quangtran said:

I can't consider it an insult when the poop song sits comfortable next to Darryl's sperm song and Paula's songs about penises and the vagina. And I always thought the fake piano playing was part of the joke.

Because their songs were relevant to their lives, their stories, and their roles on the show. Valencia's was a one-off that did nothing to serve her own character but deliver a poop joke.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I like Paula, but you've made good points, particularly her blowing off all of Rebecca's other heinous actions to focus on the least of Rebecca's crimes, the fact that she lied to Paula.

I think this wasn't earned, but Paula's reaction was totally in character.  She believes she is the most important person in Rebecca's life and has for almost as long as we've known her - we got the Mama Rose number when she felt personally insulted that Rebecca was with Greg instead of Josh.  Paula is just as self-centered as Rebecca, only it's expressed as her mother/savior issues with Rebecca.

[Blakeston]

21 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Not only is Santino not exactly an ogre, but SMF isn't exactly the Adonis CEG insists he is either. 

It honestly bothers me that they make such a huge deal about his looks when Josh and Hector are right there.

It's one thing to acknowledge that SMF is reasonably attractive. But to act like he's so much hotter than anyone else in the cast, when a lot of people just don't get his supposed gorgeousness, and there are some very attractive men of color in the cast? It's a bit much.

[quangtran]

It's no different to how Valencia is the only women acklowledged as "hot", yet it is Heather who betters fits to the ideal of model gorgeous. All of this is in service to the joke or their personalities.  I don't think Rachel and co are actually ranking anyone by looks.

[smartymarty]

Wow. Lots of criticisms, and all I've got is that I couldn't buy that Rebecca would plead guilty to the charge she did. I can't remember it exactly, but it was an intentional homicide. I thought that Trent went over the side of the building was accidental -- she meant only to push him away from Nathaniel. Thus she could still take responsibility for her actions, but that responsibility would have been to accept a plea of assault, not attempted homicide. She didn't have the intent to kill.

[whiporee]

17 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't think I've ever seen a show undermine it's entire premise and sow complete chaos in its third season. They were always tightly written and well-thought out. It's really a big fall.

What is the premise you think is being undermined? Rebecca is crazy and she's always been crazy, thus the title of the show, it's first scene and three theme songs. 

I don't think it's ever been established that Rebecca actually out a hit out on Mona. I think that's a lot harder to do than people are suggesting. Even she thinks she "may" have put a hit out on Mona -- and it might have been funny to see the kind of "hitman" who hangs out on the "dark web" try and hook up with her about negotiations and terms and such, but it's being thrown around here like things actually happened that may not have. Likewise with Nathaniel's actions towards Josh's family -- did any of them actually take place? Maybe I'm forgetting the arc about Josh's grandfather being deported and his father indicted and his sister kicked out of school -- did those things happen, or was it mostly pillow talk and hypotheses?  

The actual bad thing that was actually done was Rebecca lied to Paula and got her to commit an illegal act after she tried to beg out of it. And poop cupcakes. Beyond that, unless I'm forgetting or missing something, everything else was hypothetical.

[DianeDobbler]

6 hours ago, quangtran said:

It's no different to how Valencia is the only women acklowledged as "hot", yet it is Heather who betters fits to the ideal of model gorgeous. All of this is in service to the joke or their personalities.  I don't think Rachel and co are actually ranking anyone by looks.

Heather actually won that contest where all the women looked like mermaids with feet who went to Coachella. Valencia hasn't been acknowledged as hot recently, that was something that happened when she was Josh's girlfriend and Rebecca got obsessed with her weight, her skin, her look.

[AllyB]

46 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I don't think it's ever been established that Rebecca actually out a hit out on Mona. I think that's a lot harder to do than people are suggesting. Even she thinks she "may" have put a hit out on Mona -- and it might have been funny to see the kind of "hitman" who hangs out on the "dark web" try and hook up with her about negotiations and terms and such, but it's being thrown around here like things actually happened that may not have. Likewise with Nathaniel's actions towards Josh's family -- did any of them actually take place? Maybe I'm forgetting the arc about Josh's grandfather being deported and his father indicted and his sister kicked out of school -- did those things happen, or was it mostly pillow talk and hypotheses?  

They were all established as having happened. Trent had the evidence that Rebecca had taken a hit out on Mona. That's what he was using to blackmail her. And Nathaniel arranged for all those things to happen to Josh's family, that's what he was doing at the masquerade ball. Rebecca just demanded he cancel them as soon as she found out.