S13.E12: Various and Sundry Villains

[catrox14]

Dean falls victim to a couple of witches, sisters Jamie (guest star Jordan Clair Robbins) and Jennie Plum (guest star Elise Gatien), who manage to steal a powerful book of spells from the Winchester brothers. When Sam and Dean go after the book, they get help from a powerful and surprising ally when Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell), back from the dead, intervenes to assist them.

 

 

[Katy M]

The love spell was so cheesy that I think it might have achieved awesomeness in it.  But, maybe not.  I can't decide.  Those two witches may have been the most annoying MOTWs in the show's history.  Like for sure.  Valley girls?  really?  The Rowena-Sam moment was nice.  But, I fear it's going to come back and bite him in the butt.

I highly doub that Rowena really cares Crowley is dead.  She did bargain with Sam for him to kill Crowley. And the last time they saw each other Rowena was rubbing Gavin's death in. 

[Morrigan2575]

I caught the previouslies and said hey you can't sheep Rowena and  NOT being her back.  Oh hey, look Rowena's alive, yay! It's funny since I really hated her early on but, she's grown in me.

Didn't mind the Lucifer/Castiel side plot. 

[Jediknight]

I love Rowena.  Here's hoping she isn't going to go completely evil.  Let her be her over the top campy self, only on the Winchesters' side.  She should show up and just beat the living shit out of Lucifer.

Man, Speedy from Smallville took a dark turn.  Who knew she was going to turn into a witch, and try to kill the Winchesters?

Jack's going to be sad that he missed out on a zombie.

[MysteryGuest]

The episode definitely wasn't what I was expecting.  I thought they were going to go more for the humor.  Other than a few short moments, that wasn't the case.  It moved the plot lines along...Sam is still depressed and feeling hopeless, Rowena has returned, and Cas and Lucifer have escaped.  It certainly wasn't offensive, but it was sort of boring.

I agree, Katy, the witch sisters were obnoxious.  Oh well, I think this episode mainly just ushered in the 2nd half of the season.  

Edited February 2, 2018 by MysteryGuest
Edited because I used the word "episode" about a dozen times in 3 sentences...

[Pondlass1]

What bloody awful acting from the two witch girls, especially the opening scenes.  OMG!! 

So Rowena has blue eyes now? It's kind of interesting....hmmmm

[catrox14]

Of course, Sam and Lucifer are still on the menu. LOL Oh show.

[bettername2come]

Oh, no. I started shipping Sam with Rowena. Which probably means she's going to die again. But seriously, there was a bond and shared trauma there. I like Rowena. No idea how serious she was about missing Fergus, but she's said that thing about hating him so she won't love him, so there definitely something to the "opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference" for their relationship. The witches were lame. And next time, shoot before you tell them they're witch-killing bullets, Dean. Sam got to drive! Although I wish he would've run over the witches.

[Morrigan2575]

I liked the Sam/Rowena bonding scenes. I do believe her and, really hope she doesn't go full evil. I actually thought to myself they should keep the book and give her that 1 spell. Kind of glad Sam did just that.

The 2 girls were quite horrible and got everything they deserved.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Of course, Sam and Lucifer are still on the menu. LOL Oh show.

I thought for a moment that we were going to be revisiting that during the boys' conversation at the end, but I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't go there.  Yes, Sam is still depressed, but I really don't want Lucifer Part II.  Sam seemed perfectly fine around Lucifer while they were dealing with Amara.  By fine, I don't mean that he likes him, or that he's forgiven him, or that he's forgotten his time in hell, but we've seen no evidence that his thoughts of Lucifer still keep him up nights.  Anymore than Dean's memories of hell keep him up nights.  Both boys have plenty of reason never to sleep again, frankly.

I wish they were just better at writing some of these scenes.  Dean was depressed and hopeless for the first 4 or 5 episodes of the season, and now Sam is going through his own depression.  I just think that under normal circumstances, they would refer back to the time when Dean was depressed and talk about how this time in their lives has been particularly hard for both of them.  I don't need to revisit Dean's depression, but it would certainly be more organic for them to discuss something they've both very recently experienced, and have an actual conversation about how they move forward from here.  I don't know, I just think that brothers, especially brothers as close as these two are, would have more meaningful conversations.  

[BoxManLocke]

As someone who doesn't like Rowena, it's just rage-inducing to see how much the writers absolutely adore the character and will present the most ridiculous justifications for her continued presence even though she has absolutely no business being alive.

In this very episode she was responsible for the death of a least two innocent men (probably many, many more), but it's okay y'all, she's cool and vulnerable and stuff. No reason for the boys to kill her at all. And if she does get killed, she'll just come back, since death has zero meaning on this show (well, only for cool new characters. Those get killed early and don't get to come back).

Everything surrounding the sister witches was boring as hell, and both Sam and Dean were absolutely useless and dumb when dealing with the job at hand and got outsmarted every five minutes. And of course Rowena got to finish the job.

The only highlights for me were Sam POV and the funny cashier who gave Dean the sisters' address. The Castiel/Pellegrino scenes were tolerable too since there was some talk about Jack and Castiel was back to his older self (for how many episodes, that's the question).

The pacing this season is all over the place, as is the use of recurring characters. I don't know how I'm supposed to be invested in the search for Mary when we've seen her about 4 minutes in 12 episodes. And Jack, the only great thing about the season, has been criminally underused. It's been two months since episode 9 and we've gotten nowhere. I've completely lost interest in the main plot.

[Advance35]

I think I liked it and I definitely think it was an interesting character beat they gave to Rowena.  Something that is truly sympathetic, even after everything she's seen and done, the sheer brutality of the beating Lucifer gave Rowena has traumatized her.  I liked that we were seeing the results of a Rowena scheme gone wrong, she found two henchmen she thought would be easy to control and/or discard when it became necessary, but as usual, things took an unexpected turn and she would have been dead without Sam and Dean.

Her moment in the car with Sam was a very good scene.  Sam has always been very intuitive, he just doesn't always listen.  Him recognizing the fear that Rowena was running from and trying to guard herself against was a good way to remind the audience what Sam himself had been through.   

The Winchester's relationship with Supernatural beings is always so interesting because you never know what kind of dynamic will develop.  For the most part I don't think they care for beings that aren't human or I should say, I use to think that pre-Castiel.  Cas is someone both Dean and Sam have taken to heart and Jack (though to a much lesser extent).  Though there was a camaraderie on the part of Dean/Crowley, and Crowley was tagged onto Dean's list of things they lost, it was always clear Crowley connected with Dean more then Dean ever connected with Crowley.  I'm wondering if a similar dynamic might develop between Rowena and Sam.

[MysteryGuest]

24 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

The Castiel/Pellegrino scenes were tolerable too since there was some talk about Jack and Castiel was back to his older self (for how many episodes, that's the question).

Yes, I forgot about this.  I loved seeing a smart, strong Castiel.  He deliberately provoked Lucifer so they could escape (at least that's how I saw it), and he didn't fall for Lucifer's bullshit.  Of course, we don't know what happened after he stabbed Lucifer, but I'm hoping that Cas still has the upper hand.  I was afraid that Cas would buckle under and allow Lucifer to steal some of his grace.  Thankfully, that didn't happen.

Edited February 2, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[gonzosgirrl]

It was an okay? episode? The witches spelling the big dumb guy in the opener made no sense - if they wanted cash, why not just hex the cashier?  I was surprised that Sam and Rowena's commiserating over their Lucifer experiences touched me a little. I found it much more organic than some of the past references have been. Sometimes I wish the show did a little more remembering that both brothers have suffered years of trauma in Hell.

I was even more pleasantly surprised by Cas and Lucifer. This was the most interesting they've been in a long time. And bravo to Cas for 'learning from his mistakes'.

ETA: I'm guessing the spell made her immortal. The spell in her leg let her resurrect herself, but maybe now she can't die in the first place.

Edited February 2, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was an okay? episode? The witches spelling the big dumb guy in the opener made no sense - if they wanted cash, why not just hex the cashier?  I was surprised that Sam and Rowena's commiserating over their Lucifer experiences touched me a little. I found it much more organic than some of the past references have been. Sometimes I wish the show did a little more remembering that both brothers have suffered years of trauma in Hell.

I was even more pleasantly surprised by Cas and Lucifer. This was the most interesting they've been in a long time. And bravo to Cas for 'learning from his mistakes'.

I was wondering why they didn't just hex the cashier, too, but I figured it was because they wanted him dead, and if they killed him insdie, the cameras would see them. But, on the other hand, they could have just told him to come outside, so I guess that's not it.  Maybe, because he was behnd the counter, it would have made it more difficult for Jenny to get a hex bag in his pocket?  Or maybe he didn't have any pockets.

And nobody ever learns from their mistakes on this show for more than an episode or two. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I was wondering why they didn't just hex the cashier, too, but I figured it was because they wanted him dead, and if they killed him insdie, the cameras would see them. But, on the other hand, they could have just told him to come outside, so I guess that's not it.  Maybe, because he was behnd the counter, it would have made it more difficult for Jenny to get a hex bag in his pocket?  Or maybe he didn't have any pockets.

And nobody ever learns from their mistakes on this show for more than an episode or two. 

LOL, that's why I put it in quotes. He thinks he has, but yeah, doubtful it will last for long.

[Jeddah]

I am so glad that the burnt, stomped on body was not the end of Rowena. She deserved better, so I am looking forward to an even more badass Rowena. I liked her bonding with Sam. I say “Bless your heart” all the time, so I loved Rowena saying “Bless your precious heart” to Sam. 

I liked the feet stuck to the ground hex. That’s a convenient spell! The boys struggling to move was great. There has to be a lot of bloopers from that scene.

The boys fighting in the parking lot reminded me of their “Tall Tales” scuffle.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm so worried they are setting Sam up to have let a dangerous Rowena on the world.* And that Dean's going to have to fix that mess despite Sam vowing that he'll take care of it. Because now that Dean has taken over the optimism, I'm worried Sam's not going to have much of a role here at all - since that's usually Sam's role to be the one to have hope that they'll find a way.

Hopefully I'm worrying for nothing, but I guess we'll see.

* Because they already set up Dean questioning Sam's decision, and I'll be surprised if  - since Sam - so far - has been right about Jack, he'll also be right about Rowena. Sam's too close to it, and Dean's usually got a good instinct about these things.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Oh, no. I started shipping Sam with Rowena.

Join me. I've been shipping them since the Werther Project LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

As someone who doesn't like Rowena, it's just rage-inducing to see how much the writers absolutely adore the character and will present the most ridiculous justifications for her continued presence even though she has absolutely no business being alive.

In this very episode she was responsible for the death of a least two innocent men (probably many, many more), but it's okay y'all, she's cool and vulnerable and stuff. No reason for the boys to kill her at all. And if she does get killed, she'll just come back, since death has zero meaning on this show (well, only for cool new characters. Those get killed early and don't get to come back).

 

I don't dislike Rowena as a character, but I definitely think the bolded is too easily dismissed. Those guys weren't doing anything wrong at all, and they both died as a direct result of Rowena's scheming.

[catrox14]

I was super underwhelmed by that episode. Maybe upon rewatch I'll be at least whelmed. 

The only thing I am taking away is that Dean knows damn well what 5th base is. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was super underwhelmed by that episode. Maybe upon rewatch I'll be at least whelmed. 

The only thing I am taking away is that Dean knows damn well what 5th base is. LOL

I figure it's 3rd base, but with twins. :)

[belbar]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I figure it's 3rd base, but with twins. :)

Lol

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I figure it's 3rd base, but with twins. :)

It's realllly not. I mean it would still be 5th base with twins but yeah...Dean knows what it is LOL

[ahrtee]

How come no one mentioned Ketch, asked Rowena whythehell (and when!) she gave him the resurrection spell, and warned her (since they were feeling generous) that he was after her?

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm so worried they are setting Sam up to have let a dangerous Rowena on the world.* And that Dean's going to have to fix that mess despite Sam vowing that he'll take care of it

Taking to spec thread.  

[Bergamot]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Because now that Dean has taken over the optimism

I don't think that Dean is optimistic at all -- he admitted at the end  that he has no idea what to do. I think he is well aware of the hopelessness of the situation, but feels that he has to keep on trying anyway, for Sam and for Mary. There was a bleakness in his eyes there that looked familiar, and actually caught my attention more than most of the other things going on in the story. I am intrigued by the idea of Dean acting out of desperation, especially now that Michael is back on the show. Probably nothing will come of it, but such are the crumbs on which I live.

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Those guys weren't doing anything wrong at all, and they both died as a direct result of Rowena's scheming.

I actually missed this when watching the episode, but it's true. I guess it is lucky that the spell on the page Sam gave Rowena didn't also require the sacrifice of an innocent soul for its completion, because I don't think Rowena would have let that get in her way.

[Whodunnit]

I find it interesting that Sam knew specifically which spell to rip out of the book (since Rowena was being vague and was just saying that it would protect her from Lucifer) and hand over to Rowena.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Whodunnit
Verb

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

I find it interesting that Sam knew specifically which spell to rip out of the book (since Rowena was being vague and was just saying that it would protect her from Lucifer) and hand over to Rowena.

I'll bet Sam has been reading that book and knew about it and maybe was tempted to do it himself to free himself of his misery.

[Writing Wrongs]

I did laugh at Lucifer's exchange with the guard. "They call me Dipper." "And you let them."

I like Rowena.

[AwesomO4000]

17 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I actually missed this when watching the episode, but it's true. I guess it is lucky that the spell on the page Sam gave Rowena didn't also require the sacrifice of an innocent soul for its completion, because I don't think Rowena would have let that get in her way.

Yeah, I think that the show tends to forget that when they introduced Rowena to the show, she had dead and or tortured soon to be dead men on the ceiling while she had tea... and then in her second episode, she killed off a waiter just to enjoy a meal and a young girl as a diversion. Rowena thinks nothing of killing innocent people for her own ends... but sadly the show has made Sam and Dean tone deaf to that. Monsters don't get a second chance from them after killing people, but I guess Rowena does?

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'll bet Sam has been reading that book and knew about it and maybe was tempted to do it himself to free himself of his misery.

Wasn't Rowena already flipping through the pages? I thought Sam just shielded her with his 8ft tall body while she took it.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Wasn't Rowena already flipping through the pages? I thought Sam just shielded her with his 8ft tall body while she took it.

I'm saying that Sam might have been perusing the book for months now. So he didn't protest that much about her taking it.  I'm speculating he already knew about it. That's all I'm saying.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm saying that Sam might have been perusing the book for months now. So he didn't protest that much about her taking it.  I'm speculating he already knew about it. That's all I'm saying.

Sorry, I should've including the quote you were responding to, which is actually what I was responding to. So I don't think Sam ripped out the page, I think Rowena did.

38 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

I find it interesting that Sam knew specifically which spell to rip out of the book (since Rowena was being vague and was just saying that it would protect her from Lucifer) and hand over to Rowena.

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Wynne88]

I noticed that when Dean opened the book to show Sam the missing page, there was a bookmark there.  Not sure if he put it there or someone else did.

[catrox14]

I'm sorry but those actresses were BAD. They were not good. If they were playing "valley girls" they didn't do it well at all. Terribad acting.

[ahrtee]

I don't think Sam reads (or can understand) spell books, even if he knew there was a spell that might help him.  Even the Stupid Sisters weren't very clear on the spells, and they needed Rowena to read the Book of the Damned even after Charlie cracked the code.  And AFAIK, Rowena's spell wasn't to forget or help him get over his memories--it was to make her feel stronger because she thought that would help her PTSD.  

In between Dean's hell time (yes, I haven't forgotten!), Sam's cage time and Rowena's supposed (I don't completely believe her) trauma over her death, they really, *really* need a therapist who specializes in PTSD.  Drinking, ignoring or telling yourself you're fine doesn't really help.  

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

I don't think Sam reads (or can understand) spell books, even if he knew there was a spell that might help him.  Even the Stupid Sisters weren't very clear on the spells, and they needed Rowena to read the Book of the Damned even after Charlie cracked the code.  And AFAIK, Rowena's spell wasn't to forget or help him get over his memories--it was to make her feel stronger because she thought that would help her PTSD.  

Why do you think Sam can't read spell books?  Or might not have been trying to figure out something? I think it's entirely plausible.

My point is that I think there is a seed planted with Dean wondering about the page missing, Sam being mysterious yet relating his darkest secret to Rowena of all people.  I mean that's a pretty damn big thing to find out that he saw Lucifer's true face and that it's supposedly terrifying to him. I never knew he saw that. I just think there is way more to this than meets the eye. JMHO.  YMMB

[catrox14]

Hey, remember when Dean's Hell time was brought up, and I said Sam's Hell time/Lucifer stuff would come around again.  Just sayin.

[Myrelle]

Well that was a waste of an hour that I wish I could have back. Awful episode. I wish I'd skipped it.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Myrelle

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

My point is that I think there is a seed planted with Dean wondering about the page missing, Sam being mysterious yet relating his darkest secret to Rowena of all people.  I mean that's a pretty damn big thing to find out that he saw Lucifer's true face and that it's supposedly terrifying to him. I never knew he saw that. I just think there is way more to this than meets the eye. JMHO.  YMMB

I don't think there's any real mystery to Sam revealing his "darkest secret" to Rowena.  IMO it's just that he found someone that can understand what he's going through. (Remember Dean telling Sam that he couldn't explain hell, that he could never make him understand it and wouldn't *want* to?)  But if he had someone who'd been through it, so he wouldn't have to explain it, that's different.  That's the reasoning behind support groups.  

TBH, it sounded to me an awful lot like a writer pulling something out of his ass to make last week's reveal of Sam's depression make sense.  Not a retcon, but a "backwards-explainer," and I'm not sure it'll lead to anything fans on either side of the Sam/Dean divide would want.  But I guess I'll wait to see before I get mad at something that might never happen... :) 

[catrox14]

Brenda may have been my favorite part of the episode. She was fun. She appreciated seeing the Stupid Sisters getting taken down a peg by Dean.

Also, I don't believe Steve Yockey wrote this episode or he got notes.  Dean is all "I don't want anyone  to know I was beaten up by a girl" only to have Sam remind him that they get beat up by women all the time. Dean doesn't want to get beaten up by ANYONE. STOP IT SHOW. Stop it right now. Dean does not care if it's a woman or what. WHY DID YOU MAKE HIM SAY THAT??

I think Perez wrote the Sam and Dean stuff with the witches and Yockey wrote the Cas and Lucifer stuff. Don't @ me about this LOL

Edited February 2, 2018 by catrox14

[Bergamot]

Maybe I misheard this, since I was not paying much attention to the Lucifer scenes, but did I hear Lucifer say that the torture that was being inflicted on Mary was more awful than even anything he himself had ever seen? I guess that means Mary is the new champion of being tortured, eclipsing even Sam! I don't know why this strikes me as funny, but it does. "No one in the history of torture's been tortured with torture like the torture you'll be tortured with!"  Sometimes this show makes me laugh even though it is something I don't think they intended to be funny.  :-)

Edited February 2, 2018 by Bergamot

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Maybe I misheard this, since I was not paying much attention to the Lucifer scenes, but did I hear Lucifer say that the torture that was being inflicted on Mary was more awful than even anything he himself had ever seen? I guess that means Mary is the new champion of being tortured, eclipsing even Sam! I don't know why this strikes me as funny, but it does. "No one in the history of torture's been tortured with torture like the torture you'll be tortured with!"  Sometimes this show makes me laugh even though it is something I don't think they intended to be funny.  :-)

Cas called him out for lying. So I think Lucifer was full of crap.  That said, it would go along with all the talk of AU Michael being more cruel than Lucifer.  So who knows. It could be true, it could a lie or exaggeration. Either way, I just rolled my eyes at it. LOL

[bozodegama]

 Weird episode.  Cass was smiling strangely, he’s probably that empty Cass.  Is Lucifer really dead?  I doubt it. And what’s with Sammy.  He always falls for Deans speech, especially when they roll out Deans theme with his pep talk.  These guys have been through way worse.  Why get so frustrated now?  

[Wayward Son]

Hopefully I’ll have an opportunity to post more detailed thoughts later, but I really enjoyed that episode. Castiel’s characterisation was the best we’ve seen in ages and he was actually allowed to be a badass! I also enjoyed the Samwena scenes in particular the bond their shared trauma created between them. The only negative was the ridiculousness overpowering of Dean. He can take out Sam effortlessly with one punch and then later again in the street? Yeah, right. I’m happy to discuss the last more in bitch vs Jerk, but to be clear im not saying Dean couldn’t win in a fight against Sam. Just that it wouldn’t take one punch to do so. 

[companionenvy]

I liked the Sam and Rowena scenes. Jared's acting, which I'm usually not all that impressed with, was the best I'd seen from him in some time, and I thought it was an unusually subtle treatment of trauma for this show. Like WS, I also appreciated Cas being competent and assertive.

What continues to bug me is the show's inability to write a believable redemption arc (the late, lamented Meg being an exception).  Crowley, Lucifer and Rowena have all done and enjoyed doing too many genuinely horrific things to buy them as objects of admiration or sympathy, yet we've been asked to do so, to a greater or lesser extent, in all three cases. It isn't that I think it is impossible for even someone who has done horrific things to change, but the show hasn't, IMO, committed to the careful work of characterizing these people in ways that would make their transformations organic. Rowena mourning Crowley is a case in point; they've simply made her too consistently awful to Crowley, up to and including credible efforts to kill him and helping to send Gavin (her own grandson) to his death largely to get revenge on him, for this to make sense. 

Compare this to Meg. Meg had done absolutely evil things, and enjoyed doing them as much as most demons, but even in her first appearances, she had a kernel of potentially redemptive motivation in her ( however twisted) loyalty to and love for Azazel. When she began working on the same side as the Winchesters, it was a marriage of convenience borne out of her own sense of self-preservation and desire for revenge, and to some extent, it remained so. But given what we knew of Meg and her motivations, it was psychologically plausible that once she had lost the mission that had driven her and had to stay away from other demons for her own safety, she'd cling to anything else that gave her a sense of purpose. I also bought the idea that on some level, she was drawn to people who had an authentic version of the kind of relationship she had enjoyed only in a twisted and perverse way. Hence her genuine fondness, if not love for her "unicorn" Castiel, whose naivete had charmed and perhaps moved her even before he took on the hell memories. After that, the damaged Castiel, unlike people who knew and understood what she was and what she had done, could provide her with some of the affection and trust she so craved.  To me, that was a believable journey for her. I haven't seen anything comparable with Rowena.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

How come no one mentioned Ketch, asked Rowena whythehell (and when!) she gave him the resurrection spell, and warned her (since they were feeling generous) that he was after her?

Because with so much else going on they forgot?  I know I did.

 

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yeah, I think that the show tends to forget that when they introduced Rowena to the show, she had dead and or tortured soon to be dead men on the ceiling while she had tea... and then in her second episode, she killed off a waiter just to enjoy a meal and a young girl as a diversion. Rowena thinks nothing of killing innocent people for her own ends... but sadly the show has made Sam and Dean tone deaf to that. Monsters don't get a second chance from them after killing people, but I guess Rowena does?

Look at how long they buddied up with Crowley.  Sure, a lot of his stuff was just 100% hell related, but not all of it.  He killed a security guard in front of Dean in The Devil You Know. He kindapped Kevin's mother and held her captive for months.  He kidnapped and tortured Kevin, twice, I think.  He killed Kevin's girlfriend.  

Dean tried to stop Sam from killing Casey because they had a bonding moment, but she had killed Richie earlier in the epi in Sin city.

Heck, even Cas basically kidnapped Jimmy and got him killed.  And, they (or at least SAm) turned a blind eye to Gadreel at the end after he had killed Kevin.

This is totally not unprecedented.  Not that I'm saying that's a good thing.  I'm not.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is all "I don't want anyone  to know I was beaten up by a girl" only to have Sam remind him that they get beat up by women all the time. Dean doesn't want to get beaten up by ANYONE. STOP IT SHOW. Stop it right now. Dean does not care if it's a woman or what. WHY DID YOU MAKE HIM SAY THAT??

Because it's so much worse to get beaten up by a girl.  "You got sidelined by a 13 year old girl?"

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, I don't believe Steve Yockey wrote this episode or he got notes.

Yeah, it seems to  me as if they all drink Dabb's Kool-Aid eventually, if they want to keep their jobs or advance, that is.

Kudos to ILoveReading for predicting that Dean wouldn't be under the spell for very long-which felt like a blessing to me. Dean in thrall to those bimbos for any longer would have made this one even worse than it was, which was Awful. At least he called Sam out on giving the page to Rowena. And his little scene with the clerk was great. But he's clearly in the cheerleader role now even though Jensen is still trying so hard to maintain Dean's badassity. He shouldn't have to try so hard, but both brothers looked like absolute idiots when they didn't shoot the witches on first sight. My eyes rolled to the back of my head during that scene. But that's how Rowena got to be their Savior. God, I hate that type of writing, but apparently it's Dabb's specialty.

9 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I don't think that Dean is optimistic at all -- he admitted at the end  that he has no idea what to do. I think he is well aware of the hopelessness of the situation, but feels that he has to keep on trying anyway, for Sam and for Mary. There was a bleakness in his eyes there that looked familiar, and actually caught my attention more than most of the other things going on in the story. I am intrigued by the idea of Dean acting out of desperation, especially now that Michael is back on the show. Probably nothing will come of it, but such are the crumbs on which I live.

You and me both, but I have to also agree with you that nothing will probably come of it. I DID like Lucifer's description of his big brother, though. It sounded like Dean to me so, yeah, crumbs for me, too.

So over Sam and Lucifer. So over Lucifer period. I thought for a minute that he might have gone into Rowena when her eyes turned the same color as his, but maybe just a piece of him went into her, like in Harry Potter because I can't see them getting rid of Pellegrino that easily.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dean wouldn't be under the spell for very long-which felt like a blessing to me. Dean in thrall to those bimbos for any longer would have made this one even worse than it was, which was Awful.

I have mixed feelings, because at least Jensen to go stretch his comdeic skills for a hot minute.  After the love spell wore off, I'm not sure why he was in the rest of the episode.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I have mixed feelings, because at least Jensen to go stretch his comdeic skills for a hot minute.  After the love spell wore off, I'm not sure why he was in the rest of the episode.

I don't want see him as comic relief anymore, tbh. He's better than strictly and only that. Frankly, I'd rather he not be in an episode of this show at all if that's all they're going to use him for.