S01.E02: A Fruitful Partnership

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Sara finds a clue and Kreizler tries to connect the evidence left behind by the serial killer. Kreizler takes Moore, Sara, Marcus and Lucius to Delmonico's in New York and informs them they're working together to catch the killer.

[fauntleroy]

In which Moore doesn't take the most basic of precautions. Dumbass. 

[Neurochick]

I liked this episode better than last week’s.  Probably because it was closer to the book.  The ending was awesome too.  And I loved the scene at Delmonicos.

[eejm]

Watch your drink at all times, Moore!  All of the prostitutes climbing onto him at the end was really creepy.  I'm guessing that photos will be taken and he'll be blackmailed by the Mafia and the crooked cop.  

[Neurochick]

5 minutes ago, eejm said:

Watch your drink at all times, Moore!  All of the prostitutes climbing onto him at the end was really creepy.  I'm guessing that photos will be taken and he'll be blackmailed by the Mafia and the crooked cop.  

Cameras weren’t that easy to operate at that time also, don’t forget Dr. K. Asked Stevie to keep an eye on John.

[sjohnson]

Think Roosevelt realized Kreisler told him Sarah Howard had provided the information,. And Kreisler is correct that Roosevelt gave permission in a totally plausible deniability way. 

Stevie may save Moore's bacon. 

Socialist Labor Party was a real thing. Jack London was perhaps the most famous member. It may be like the Wobblies, still around, sort of. 

[tennisgurl]

I guess this is before everyone was taught that the number one rule of being in a club (especially a sketchy one) is that you always watch your drink at all times! The number one rule! That last sequence was quite disturbing. Very hard to watch the entire last sequence. This show clearly has a gift for not showing graphic things, but keeping up a disturbing, creepy atmosphere. 

I like the two detective brothers. Its kind of funny hearing them talking about how fingerprinting is practically a fringe science, as its now quite a standard part of all police procedurals. I am sure the one brother isn't the first person to get into communism to hit on a hot chick or guy. 

Another really good episode. I like the characters that are being established, and the story with the police possibly covering something about a serial killer is intriguing. Also, did I see the older brother of the dead boy in the brothel? His family seemed quite impoverished so it wouldn't be that surprising that he would go into that kind of business to make money. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by tennisgurl

[pezgirl7]

The end scene was super creepy and hard to watch. I knew I was going to have a hard time watching the boys at their job, but it was harder than I imagined. I felt bad for John when Laszlo told him that perhaps his work was done, and I just knew he was going to end up doing something stupid. I hope Stevie can save John, but I'm not sure how he'll manage it on his own.

This episode had some good, chummy dialogue between Laszlo and John that was missing from the first episode. And John is more witty and sarcastic than I thought. I loved his lines "Perhaps you should measure her skull" and then when he wakes up at the opera, "Is it over?". Also when he grabs two drinks, but Laszlo declines one so he says "I shall be forced to drink for two". I also enjoyed watching him draw.

Didn't really understand the point of the scenes with the one twin and the woman he picked up.

Edited January 30, 2018 by pezgirl7

[Trampolina]

The brothel scenes were amazing and disturbing and really brought the book to life.  I loved Sally and the boy singing in that grating falsetto.   I'm still really liking what they've done with the story and I hope they tell the backstories of Mary, Cyrus, and Stevie soon.

[sjohnson]

Further thoughts prompted by a Genevieve Valentine review. She was exercised over the portrait scene, badly misreading it. The point of the scene is not that John thought she was fat, or that the audience is supposed to think she was vain. The point was that the rich mother was ordering the lowly artist to idealize the portrait. Not all of us in the audience would think she was fat. And, of those who do, not all would seize upon an occasion for scorn.

This show is very much about gestures to modern sensibilities while indulging old ones. If that was inartistic in Mad Men for all those years, it’s inartistic here for ten weeks.

Lastly, as it happens Luke Evans is out, which gives some strange vibes to the final scene. John Moore is in a panic over being raped vs. John Moore is overwhelmed with feelings? The whole sequence plays a little fast and loose with ages, just enough younger boys, including some who may be prepubescent, to equate homosexuality and pedophilia (where have we heard that one before?) Whether the prostitutes are taking female persona as a kind of denialism of male/male sexuality, or as signifiers of (female) inferiority, rather than expressing their own transgender natures, doesn’t seem to be an issue. 

[Morrigan2575]

What was the deal with the housekeeper? There was some serious looks exchanged in that scene. 

[rove4]

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Lastly, as it happens Luke Evans is out, which gives some strange vibes to the final scene. John Moore is in a panic over being raped vs. John Moore is overwhelmed with feelings? 

He looked pretty terrified to me at the realization that he'd been drugged and was going to be subjected to something not of his own choosing.

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

What was the deal with the housekeeper? There was some serious looks exchanged in that scene. 

If this hews close to the books, this will be explored.

 

What was with the creepy guy at the beginning, a coroner/mortician(?), lighting flames to....what?  Gases expelled from corpses? 

[Kirsty]

All the city nightlife scenes, uptown and downtown, looked wonderful. I can see where production is spending the millions.

The Jewish brothers who are Ye Olde CSI or whatever are having fun, and they're enjoyable to watch. Laszlo and Sara are stiff and reserved characters, so the team -- and the show -- benefits from the presence of the young, lively Issacsons. Another reason they're needed is that they're not rich. Without them, this show would be poshos outdoing plebs at crime-solving, you know? Our three heroes appear to be upper-class, while the victims and (bad guy) Captain Connor are from poor backgrounds. The show needs some working-class heroes and this duo fit the bill.

I remember when I first watched the trailer for this show, I guessed that Dakota Fanning's character was on the autism spectrum. (I haven't read the book and this is one thing I'd like spoiled, if anyone can tell me?) If that's not the case, then Sara's flat affect is simply an acting choice of Fanning's. Or to be less generous, Fanning's idea of acting is staring blankly and unblinkingly. Speaking of acting choices, the guy playing Roosevelt is a problem.

I wonder if I'm supposed to think John has a drinking problem as well as a brothel problem, lol. And is Mary sleeping with Laszlo or does she just wish she were? Because this is Laszlo's show, I'm gonna guess that Mary is in love with him.

Half the time I find Dr. Laszlo Kreizler slightly ridiculous. They need to stop making him preach 21st century mores to 19th century people! And quite often his interaction with the other regular characters is so corny that I'm cringing.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Kirsty

[sjohnson]

Re Kreizler's 21st century mores instead of 19th century, consider Walt Whitman, Victoria Woodhull and the Oneida colony under Humphries just in the US. Further afield were Edward Carpenter in England. And John Addington Symonds had already published A Problem in Greek Ethics, and perished. As for the specifics of Kreizler's alienist practice, this was the period when Krafft-Ebbing, Albert Moll, Magnus Hirschfeld and Sigmund Freud either had established careers, or were coming into note. The phrasing of the dialogue tends to slip into 21st century. But it's the period sounding dialogue most people dislike, dismissing it as stilted. 

If anything I fear it is that people are overestimating the 21st century's attitudes. There seem to me to be millions of people who are not that sympathetic to a Kreizler now, even if they are too sophisticated technologically to try using leeches on their daughter.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

What was with the creepy guy at the beginning, a coroner/mortician(?), lighting flames to....what?  Gases expelled from corpses? 

I believe he was using a trocar, though I don't think I have ever heard of someone lighting up the gases!

[rove4]

2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I believe he was using a trocar, though I don't think I have ever heard of someone lighting up the gases!

Haha, maybe it's his own personal quirk. 

 

I never quite understand the complaints about characters in historical dramas acting with more modern sensibilities.  Throughout history there have always been those who have been ahead of their time in terms of the things they believed and wanted.  If not, society would be exactly where we were hundreds, thousands of years ago.  We advance specifically because of those forward thinking people in history who reached for more than what their peers said was their due or was possible or appropriate.

[tennisgurl]

18 minutes ago, rove4 said:

We advance specifically because of those forward thinking people in history who reached for more than what their peers said was their due or was possible or appropriate.

I agree, and I think people have a tendency to not give people in the past the credit that they deserve. Its not that people were aliens (heh) back then, they just had different societies, but they still had brains and their own opinions. There were certainly different cultural attitudes in the past that most people today would think were awful, but its not like everyone had a hive mind and thought the exact same things at all times. As far back as ancient Greece, some thinkers were talking about gender equality and such. They weren't the majority, of course, but they were around, and people like that are often the ones who advance society. And it goes through basically every society going further back then that. So, it is questionable if the entire cast is totally down with things that would never fly in a certain time period with no issues, but I have no problem believing that some people had different or more progressive ideas in the past than what we might assume. 

[libgirl2]

19 hours ago, fauntleroy said:

In which Moore doesn't take the most basic of precautions. Dumbass. 

I agree! What an idiot! You go to that place drunk, you drink more and look at what you got yourself into. 

18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I liked this episode better than last week’s.  Probably because it was closer to the book.  The ending was awesome too.  And I loved the scene at Delmonicos.

That was neat! 

15 hours ago, Trampolina said:

The brothel scenes were amazing and disturbing and really brought the book to life.  I loved Sally and the boy singing in that grating falsetto.   I'm still really liking what they've done with the story and I hope they tell the backstories of Mary, Cyrus, and Stevie soon.

I was quite disturbed by it and then the ending.... 

Edited January 30, 2018 by libgirl2

[pezgirl7]

13 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Lastly, as it happens Luke Evans is out, which gives some strange vibes to the final scene. John Moore is in a panic over being raped vs. John Moore is overwhelmed with feelings? The whole sequence plays a little fast and loose with ages, just enough younger boys, including some who may be prepubescent, to equate homosexuality and pedophilia (where have we heard that one before?) Whether the prostitutes are taking female persona as a kind of denialism of male/male sexuality, or as signifiers of (female) inferiority, rather than expressing their own transgender natures, doesn’t seem to be an issue. 

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're saying that because Luke is gay in real life, you think he was playing the final scene as if he was overwhelmed with feelings of attraction towards the boys? And therefore the show is saying gay men are pedophiles? I don't think Luke's sexuality should have anything to do with the scene or the interpretation. That's why he's an actor. I also don't think the show is implying that homosexuality=pedophilia.  I think John looked terrified and sickened the entire time he was there, and that's pretty much how Luke said it was to film that sequence.

I think Sara showed a little more warmth toward John in this episode, but she seems more tolerable of Laszlo at this point. I'm not really sure what to make of their scene in the carriage. They seemed to be flirting, which I really didn't want to see.

Edited January 31, 2018 by pezgirl7

[sjohnson]

55 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

It sounds like you're saying that because Luke is gay in real life, you think he was playing the final scene as if he was overwhelmed with feelings of attraction towards the boys? And therefore the show is saying gay men are pedophiles? I don't think Luke's sexuality should have anything to do with the scene or the interpretation. That's why he's an actor. I also don't think the show is implying that homosexuality=pedophilia.  I think John look terrified and sickened the entire time he was there, and that's pretty much how Luke said it was to film that sequence.

No, I think the writers are well aware that many viewers know Evans is out, and they mean this to make Evans' portrayal of a man with sexual hangups more compelling. People can't unknow these things while they watch TV. It's why every homicide isn't a trauma, we know they're actors. I don't know exactly how Evans was playing the final scene because I'm not clever enough to interpret an eyeball. I'm afraid I do think the show is conflating pedophilia and homosexuality in the visuals, which has nothing to do with Evans' performance. I don't know why John Moore would be terrified throughout the entire sequence (as opposed to after he collapses and the men come in.) I do think John Moore was supposed to be sickened because it was pedophilia. 

[Kirsty]

5 hours ago, rove4 said:

I never quite understand the complaints about characters in historical dramas acting with more modern sensibilities.

If this is an allusion to my criticism, I meant that it's a cheap trick. The writer is giving the hero the benefit of more than a hundred years of scientific advancement, to make his hero look good and to make the other people of the time look bad. It's cheesy, so the writers should try not to lean on it too hard. And in my case, I was criticizing not the fact that Laszlo's living the way he chooses, but that he's preaching at others about how they should live, which makes it more pointed.

It's a bit like... Have you seen the Titanic movie from the nineties? When the bad guy criticizes the heroine's collection of paintings, he says the painter, Picasso, won't amount to anything. It's a line that deserves an eye-roll.

Edited to add:

Quote

As for Titanic, I'm sure many people thought Picasso never would amount to anything, so that scene didn't make my eyes roll.

I'm not claiming it's eye-roll-worthy because it's inconceivable or unrealistic, but because it's a cheap way to score points off the villain. That's the point of the line: to put him in the wrong. That's why the twentieth century screenwriter chose the name of a world-famous painter that the movie-goers would be familiar with: to ensure we know the character is wrong in his prediction. Which character? The villain. Which character likes Picasso's paintings? The heroine.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Kirsty

[fellini]

The pace of the show is very slow and they continue to focus on things that have nothing to do with the plot of the show. Why did they spend a minute showing Miss Howard helping a lady pickup dishes from the floor. I think the sex scene was random as well.

[Neurochick]

I don't think John was afraid of being raped, I think he was more afraid of being murdered.  I have read the book, so I won't say any more.

I agree that the pace is slow, but I think the problem is many people today are used to networks like Amazon, Hulu, Netflix, that release the entire series at once so people can binge watch.  I think most shows on TV today are really made for binge watching, and that's the issue.

In history, just like today, there have always been people who were ahead of the pack.  We'd still be in the dark ages if it were not for forward thinking people.

As for Titanic, I'm sure many people thought Picasso never would amount to anything, so that scene didn't make my eyes roll.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Neurochick

[Hazel55]

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

What was the deal with the housekeeper? There was some serious looks exchanged in that scene. 

I believe it was to indicate that Mary clearly either dislikes or is uncomfortable with Sarah (or both.) This could be due to a number of reasons: perhaps the working class Mary resents the clearly wealthy Sarah's unearned privilege; perhaps Mary feels that Sarah was out of line in trying to do Mary's job for her; perhaps Mary is jealous of the time Sarah is spending with Kreitzler. Or maybe some combination of all these factors. 

19 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

Didn't really understand the point of the scenes with the one twin and the woman he picked up.

 

Well, if nothing else, it was good to see a young man insert himself with such fervor into the socialist cause! He was able to penetrate right to the heart of socialism!

But all horrendous jokes aside, I believe it was meant to indicate that Marcus was the more free spirited andsexually adventurous of the twins, perhaps a bit on the promiscuous side. Perhaps it the girl is going to stick around a love interest/ hookup for a while. I'd personally like that--she struck me as pretty interesting. She was apparently a socialist, in stark contrast to the beliefs of most of our privileged protagonists. And her sexual behavior definitely suggests some rather bold flouting of the sexual norms for women of the time. Of course, rules were a bit loser for working class girls than they were for upper class girls like Sarah Howard; but hooking up shortly after meeting a guy is still a pretty bold move on her part. Sarah, in working at the police station, is definitely flouting some of the norms of the time, but in other ways (such as her romantic and sexual behavior) she strikes me as (thus far) fairly conventional. It would be interesting to have a female character who is actively claiming the same sexual rights that John, Marcus, and others take for granted. 

If nothing else, at least we got a sex scene that wasn't joyless and utterly saddo (I'm looking at you, John Moore!)

Anyway... I enjoyed this episode, though not quite as much as the first. Perhaps this is because with the first one, there was a ton of excitement for me with a much-enjoyed book finally reaching the screen. Throughout the course of this episode it occurred to me that overall, this show seems like it is going to be pretty good, rather than really good or great. It's fast paced and enjoyable while I'm watching it; its only after contemplating it afterwards that the number of clichés and recycled tropes that the writing is filled with. (The costumes, cinematography, direction, and acting are, on the other hand, first rate.) Thus far, the show hasn't managed to saw anything original or profound; much less create one of a kind characters or situations; but as popcorn entertainment it succeeds. 

On to the good. Watching the police beat down Georgio's father was brutal. Hearing about the police corruption that is rampant is one thing; but seeing it taken out on the most powerless members of society was another. Creepy officer Murphy attempting to touch Sarah's face with blood sodden fingers was also effectively horrifying.

I enjoyed Sarah Howard a lot this week. It was great to see her use her detective skills to make connections, and further develop the case without being asked. At this point I believe she's contributed far more to the investigation than any of the men, including Kreitzler (who could stand to be about a billion times subtler in his interactions with Roosevelt.) Hell, poor John Moore clearly realized this, and had to go and get roofied in an attempt to assuage his wounded vanity.

I know I'm going to be in the minority, but I'm loathing John Moore at this point. What happened to him at the end was, of course, tragic and totally undeserved. But I still can't stand him. I realize that most viewers will probably sympathize with him as a social outsider forced to do portraits for dull high society, deal with his unrequited love for Sarah Howard, and grapple with whatever heartbreaks continue to send him to the tavern and the brothel. But I just... can't with him. Last episode he was fine; this episode he struck me as snobbish, hypocritical, prissy, sexist, and generally overall useless. Golden moment of (dis) honor: when he told Sarah not to touch the poor, crying baby. ("Careful Sarah! These babies of the lower classes are often diseased!" Oh, and also: "All those low folks from the tenements beat their children!") And yes, I know this attitude was typical for the time, and maybe that Moore has a good heart buried somewhere. I just personally can't friggen stand him. 

However, the truth is that others interpretation of John as a noble, wounded, Byronic outsider is every bit as accurate as my own interpretation of him as a sleazy, cold, bloodless, joyless snob, so that's probably to the writer’s credit. 

The Isaacsons are great fun, and its wonderful to get a little levity. Stevie and Cyrus were also great. More of them, and of Mary, please. 

I'm pretty "meh" on the whole Kreitzler/ John/ Sarah love triangle. Nothing wrong with it, just wake me when its over. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Hazel55

[walnutqueen]

Sorry/not sorry.  My gut reaction to this show is "what  the fuckety fuck am I watching, and why the fuckety fuck am I watching it?"

Shortlisted.

[pezgirl7]

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

No, I think the writers are well aware that many viewers know Evans is out, and they mean this to make Evans' portrayal of a man with sexual hangups more compelling. People can't unknow these things while they watch TV. It's why every homicide isn't a trauma, we know they're actors. I don't know exactly how Evans was playing the final scene because I'm not clever enough to interpret an eyeball. I'm afraid I do think the show is conflating pedophilia and homosexuality in the visuals, which has nothing to do with Evans' performance. I don't know why John Moore would be terrified throughout the entire sequence (as opposed to after he collapses and the men come in.) I do think John Moore was supposed to be sickened because it was pedophilia. 

I'm pretty sure the script was written well before Luke was cast, and I still don't understand what him being gay in real life has anything to do with his character's sexual hangups. Guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. And maybe he wasn't so much as terrified the whole time as shocked, uneasy and unsure of what he was going to see. Although for me, seeing children (which is what I would call them) behave the way they were would certainly terrify me.

[Hazel55]

25 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

 And maybe he wasn't so much as terrified the whole time as shocked, uneasy and unsure of what he was going to see. 

Yeah, and I think his biggest issues was not the gender, but the age of the boys. With one exception, those boys looked extremely young, between the ages of 12 and 15. To Moore's (and the show's) credit, I believe he would have been every bit as uncomfortable if it had been a bunch of girls that age surrounding him and being solicited for sex acts by grown men. 

Random question: how old is Sarah supposed to be? 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Hazel55

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, walnutqueen said:

Sorry/not sorry.  My gut reaction to this show is "what  the fuckety fuck am I watching, and why the fuckety fuck am I watching it?"

Shortlisted.

Because it’s a fuckety fuck good show.  That’s why I’m watching it.

I think John was afraid he was going to get killed in the last scene.

[pezgirl7]

10 minutes ago, Hazel55 said:

Yeah, and I think his biggest issues was not the gender, but the age of the boys. With one exception, those boys looked extremely young, between the ages of 12 and 14. (Seriously, a few looked about 15 but that was the very oldest.) To Moore's (and the show's) credit, I believe he would have been every bit as uncomfortable if it had been a bunch of girls that age surrounding him and being solicited for sex acts by grown men. 

Though I read in one review that "The prostitute John Moore meets with in the beginning looks like a teenager!", I'd say that the woman in that scene was clearly in her mid to late 20's. 

The boy at the end looked especially young. I'm surprised someone thought Flora looked like a teenager.  The actress is 26 but I actually think she looks older.

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Because it’s a fuckety fuck good show.  That’s why I’m watching it.

I think John was afraid he was going to get killed in the last scene.

If you say so ....

I shall watch - again.  And will try to find a semblance of a fuckety. fuck good show, amidst all the fuckery.  -

[Calamity Jane]

4 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

Sorry/not sorry.  My gut reaction to this show is "what  the fuckety fuck am I watching, and why the fuckety fuck am I watching it?"

Shortlisted.

So happy to know someone else says fuckety fuck. 

[Lilly77]

I actually liked Moore better in this episode than in the first one.  I thought they gave him some more layers, and also a bit more explanation about why he would be friends with someone like Kreizler, which I had initially wondered about.  I felt quite sorry for him, even before the super creepy ending and his obvious terror at being powerless and at the mercy of gangsters, whereas in the first episode he seemed to me to be a bit slick and smarmy.

I was intreagued with Kreizler in the first episode but actually am a bit hesitant about him now.  That thing when the two women were picking up the broken dish and he was watching them - he seemed delighted about something, and I'm really hoping that it wasn't the fact that his housekeeper was visibly upset and kept looking heart-brokenly at Sarah.  Then he just destroyed John by saying he had no use in the group, provoked him by speculating he was interested in Sarah (does Kreizler relish the idea of competing in a love triangle with his friend?) and watched him walk off at night.  It might just be the bits I focused on particularly during my first viewing - I will have to rewatch - but Kreizler seemed a bit sadistic or at least carelessly cruel to those who are supposed to matter to him during the episode.

I continue to be heartily thankful that I was not born in that time period.  Life was tough for the upper and lower classes, particularly for women.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Lilly77

[thuganomics85]

Sleuthing 1.0., Moore!  If your in a shady club/brothel, always, always keep your eye on your drink!  Certainly looks like he's in a bad spot now.  Also, I just realize that the mafia guy or whatever is being by the same actor that played Carter/Hawkman in Legends of Tomorrow.  He seems way more comfortable in this role (that's suppose to be a compliment, I swear.)

Michael Ironside as J.P. Morgan and Peter McRobbie as a shady mayor.  I can dig it!

I'm pretty sure Connor saw Sara leaving his office, so I hope she watches her back going forward.  That guy is dangerous.

Liked seeing more of Laszio and Moore getting on each other's nerves.  Although, if they try a love triangle with Sara, it might get way less friendly very quickly.

Hope we get more of Cyrus and Mary soon.

[tessathereaper]

42 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Sleuthing 1.0., Moore!  If your in a shady club/brothel, always, always keep your eye on your drink!  Certainly looks like he's in a bad spot now.  Also, I just realize that the mafia guy or whatever is being by the same actor that played Carter/Hawkman in Legends of Tomorrow.  He seems way more comfortable in this role (that's suppose to be a compliment, I swear.)

Michael Ironside as J.P. Morgan and Peter McRobbie as a shady mayor.  I can dig it!

I'm pretty sure Connor saw Sara leaving his office, so I hope she watches her back going forward.  That guy is dangerous.

Liked seeing more of Laszio and Moore getting on each other's nerves.  Although, if they try a love triangle with Sara, it might get way less friendly very quickly.

Hope we get more of Cyrus and Mary soon.

oh my god thank you!  I was trying to figure out who the mafia guy was reminding me of and that's it. Carter/Hawkman.  (I mean yes I could have looked it up myself but I forgot lol). 

 

And I mean to be fair to poor John Moore(our "damsel in distress" by doing something stupid while trying to "help":)), while slipping a mickey was a thing(although it wasn't called slipping someone a mickey until a few years later) I'm pretty sure they didn't have PSA's and helpful posters talking about it.  He's a bit of an idiot but I like John, I get the feeling that he's very sensitive.  Not all the time about everything, obviously he can be insensitive about stuff as we've seen, but just in general.  I wonder if the real reason he's always asking them not talk about certain things in front of Sara is because HE finds them very disturbing(he definitely seemed so the day after Lazslo asked him to draw the first body), so he projects that onto her because it isn't really the thing for a man to be squeamish like that whereas it would be more acceptable for a woman.  He just needs to own it and stop projecting it on her.  His reaction is probably more normal to be honest, everyone around him is like "ooh cool dead bodies" whereas he's more like "right in front of my salad?"...sorry wrong meme, but you get the idea.  lol

I didn't get recognize Michael Ironside at first, I still think of him as a bit younger, and thinner, than that.  :)  

I hope there is no love triangle.

[walnutqueen]

4 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

So happy to know someone else says fuckety fuck. 

I have an entire repertoire of not so nice sayings; fuckety fuck is one of my favorites.  ;-D

[Haleth]

Now I remember why I couldn't finish the book.  Not only are the scenes of murdered and mutilated children disturbing, but the brothel scenes are too.  I'll keep watching though.  Or try to.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Haleth

[BonnieD]

Fingerprints! Whenever characters in a historical movie or show use cutting edge things like fingerprints, they always act like it will solve everything, But without a fingerprint database to compare to, the bloody fingerprint on the pocket watch would be of little use. That is all. Otherwise I really enjoyed the show, much better than the pilot. 

Agreed that the sex scene with the forensic guy and the socialist girl was very obligatory. Gotta put in a sex scene you know. I loved the line about the (non) difference between capitalism and socialism. It made me LOL. Either way man exploits man. There's always some ass who wants to be top dog and push others down no matter what social construct is in place in any given society.

[Morrigan2575]

Wait, what? Where the hell was Michael Ironside in this episode? I seriously missed him and I've been a fan since "V"

Going to have to rewatch

Edited January 31, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[sugarbaker design]

I missed Michael Ironside too, IMDB has him listed as J.P. Morgan.

[NaughtyKitty]

We saw JP Morgan with a quick hello at the opera

[pezgirl7]

58 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Wait, what? Where the hell was Michael Ironside in this episode? I seriously missed him and I've been a fan since "V"

Going to have to rewatch

 

41 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

I missed Michael Ironside too, IMDB has him listed as J.P. Morgan.

They saw him at the opera, sitting in his opera box, and Laszlo comments that every young women he shows up with is his "niece". Then later they run into him when talking to Teddy. J.P. says "TR" while he walks by, and Teddy replies "JP". I actually liked that little exchange. Here's a publicity photo from the episode where you can see him in the middle.

[sugarbaker design]

Now that I know MI is playing JP Morgan, I can see it, but there's no way I could have seen it before.

Edited January 31, 2018 by sugarbaker design

[libgirl2]

18 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're saying that because Luke is gay in real life, you think he was playing the final scene as if he was overwhelmed with feelings of attraction towards the boys? And therefore the show is saying gay men are pedophiles? I don't think Luke's sexuality should have anything to do with the scene or the interpretation. That's why he's an actor. I also don't think the show is implying that homosexuality=pedophilia.  I think John looked terrified and sickened the entire time he was there, and that's pretty much how Luke said it was to film that sequence.

I think Sara showed a little more warmth toward John in this episode, but she seems more tolerable of Laszlo at this point. I'm not really sure what to make of their scene in the carriage. They seemed to be flirting, which I really didn't want to see.

I saw it more as he was fearful because he was helpless as well as being repulsed knowing what was going to happen. 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

Now that I know MI is playing JP Morgan, I can see it, but there's no way I could have seen it before.

Agreed, looking at that photo and being told it's MI I "see" it, if no one told me I never would have placed it. Maybe the voice would have done it if I was paying attention, he does (or did) have a very distinctive voice.

[88Keys]

Agree that this was a much better episode (or at least, more enjoyable to me).  The premiere seemed to drag, but this time, the hour flew by.  I feel like we got to know the characters a bit more.  I enjoyed the banter between Moore and Dr. K- it made them seem like old friends, which they are supposed to be.  in the first episode, their relationship didn't make much sense to me. 

That sex scene was gratuitous and really didn't seem to serve much purpose. 

The ending brothel scene...damn.  That was uncomfortable.  Luke Evans played that very well.

On 1/29/2018 at 10:42 PM, pezgirl7 said:

The end scene was super creepy and hard to watch. I knew I was going to have a hard time watching the boys at their job, but it was harder than I imagined. I felt bad for John when Laszlo told him that perhaps his work was done, and I just knew he was going to end up doing something stupid. I hope Stevie can save John, but I'm not sure how he'll manage it on his own.

 

Didn't really understand the point of the scenes with the one twin and the woman he picked up.

I think Laszlo told him that to see what he would do.  Same thing with his jabs about John and Sarah.  He seems to be pushing John's buttons a bit.

On 1/30/2018 at 9:08 AM, rove4 said:

 

What was with the creepy guy at the beginning, a coroner/mortician(?), lighting flames to....what?  Gases expelled from corpses? 

I asked my husband what that was, and he said yes, they have to expel the gasses from the bodies.  I have no idea why he was lighting them, though, unless it was just to give more light to the room.

 

23 hours ago, rove4 said:

 

I never quite understand the complaints about characters in historical dramas acting with more modern sensibilities.  Throughout history there have always been those who have been ahead of their time in terms of the things they believed and wanted.  If not, society would be exactly where we were hundreds, thousands of years ago.  We advance specifically because of those forward thinking people in history who reached for more than what their peers said was their due or was possible or appropriate.

Sure, there are always people who are ahead of their time.  But I think sometimes, modern books/shows/etc will try to white-wash history a bit by making people with sensibilities that were perfectly normal at the time out to be the villains, and making those with "modern" ideas out to be heroes.  It's become almost a cliche, and as someone else said, it's kind of lazy writing at times. 

 

20 hours ago, sjohnson said:

 I'm afraid I do think the show is conflating pedophilia and homosexuality in the visuals, which has nothing to do with Evans' performance. I don't know why John Moore would be terrified throughout the entire sequence (as opposed to after he collapses and the men come in.) I do think John Moore was supposed to be sickened because it was pedophilia. 

Why wouldn't he be terrified?  He's suddenly really weak and sick and he's at the mercy of everyone else in the brothel.  He doesn't know what's happening to him, or what they will do to him.  Also, even before he goes back in the room with the boy, he's in a place where young boys are being sexualized  and exploited.  Of course he would be sickened.  It's not like this was a brothel full of adults expressing their sexuality willingly. 

[pezgirl7]

12 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

He's a bit of an idiot but I like John, I get the feeling that he's very sensitive.  Not all the time about everything, obviously he can be insensitive about stuff as we've seen, but just in general.  I wonder if the real reason he's always asking them not talk about certain things in front of Sara is because HE finds them very disturbing(he definitely seemed so the day after Lazslo asked him to draw the first body), so he projects that onto her because it isn't really the thing for a man to be squeamish like that whereas it would be more acceptable for a woman.  He just needs to own it and stop projecting it on her.  His reaction is probably more normal to be honest, everyone around him is like "ooh cool dead bodies" whereas he's more like "right in front of my salad?"...sorry wrong meme, but you get the idea.  lol

That actually makes perfect sense and I'm annoyed I didn't think of it myself! :) We've already seen that he seems to be more sensitive to the killings. He's mentioned on three occasions now, I think, that the image of the dead boy will stay with him forever. And Laszlo called him "delicate" while Sara said he's not as strong as he'd like you to think. I do think some of him wanting to shield Sara from everything does have to do with the way women were viewed back then, but I think he also is thinking of her well-being and not wanting her to have to experience something that will cause her distress, like it has him.

There was a Q&A with the actors where they talked about their characters, and Luke said that John is old school and thinks he's doing the right thing to Sara, but quite often it's completely the opposite of what she wants or what she requires from him.

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, 88Keys said:

Why wouldn't he be terrified?  He's suddenly really weak and sick and he's at the mercy of everyone else in the brothel.  He doesn't know what's happening to him, or what they will do to him.  Also, even before he goes back in the room with the boy, he's in a place where young boys are being sexualized  and exploited.  Of course he would be sickened.  It's not like this was a brothel full of adults expressing their sexuality willingly. 

I agree with others he was terrified before he was drugged. John Moore has been in brothels many times, there's no obvious reason this one should be so traumatic from the moment he sees the shoes hanging. 

As for being sickened, the notion that Moore hasn't seen girls of a suspicious youth strikes me as highly unlikely. Nor does it seem likely to me that even Moore is so gullible as to think the women  he's seen were free from compulsion of some sort or other. I think the show has skipped showing the young girls and showing the exploitation so obviously because it is conflating pedophilia and homosexuality. 

And, really, if this were supposed to be such an unusual establishment in purveying very young children, I don't think it would limit itself to one sex. 

As to Kreizler being an ass all the time? When Sarah Howard said John wasn't as strong as he wanted Kreizler to think, Kreizler snorted. Sarah Howard pointedly asked him if he thought she was funny. Keeping Moore's confidence, Kreizler said nothing...seeming to Sarah Howard to just be dicking around. On reflection though I think Kreizler this was more admirable than blabbing what Moore said. 

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, 88Keys said:

Sure, there are always people who are ahead of their time.  But I think sometimes, modern books/shows/etc will try to white-wash history a bit by making people with sensibilities that were perfectly normal at the time out to be the villains, and making those with "modern" ideas out to be heroes.  It's become almost a cliche, and as someone else said, it's kind of lazy writing at times. 

I don't see it as making these people as villains but more like, people who don't think critically, who just parrot what their parents and everybody else says, even if it makes zero sense.  

[Hazel55]

17 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

And I mean to be fair to poor John Moore(our "damsel in distress" by doing something stupid while trying to "help":)), 

That's an excellent point-- John Moore does seem to be playing the role of the "damsel in distress" or "the girl" thus far in the show, far more so than Sarah. He is the one who is the most sensitive; he has the strongest aversion to violence; he is by far the most emotionally driven; he is the weakest fighter; and he seems to also have a way of getting himself kidnapped and threatened by numerous dangerous men. In comparison, Sarah Howard is positively macho. 

10 hours ago, NaughtyKitty said:

We saw JP Morgan with a quick hello at the opera

Indeed, and it was so sweet to see he brought his "niece" along with him! Such a family man!

8 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I saw it more as he was fearful because he was helpless as well as being repulsed knowing what was going to happen. 

Also, I think Moore's reaction was meant to mirror that of the viewers. His face was like, "What? This isn't a male brothel, this is a straight up child brothel! These boys are all 13 and 14 years old, and all these grown men are here to have sex with them!" In a way, I suspect he's supposed to be our audience surrogate, in this scene and in others. Kreitlzer is certainly lacking in the "normal human reactions" as well as the "normal human emotions" category. 

19 hours ago, Lilly77 said:

II was intreagued with Kreizler in the first episode but actually am a bit hesitant about him now.  That thing when the two women were picking up the broken dish and he was watching them - he seemed delighted about something, and I'm really hoping that it wasn't the fact that his housekeeper was visibly upset and kept looking heart-brokenly at Sarah.  Then he just destroyed John by saying he had no use in the group, provoked him by speculating he was interested in Sarah (does Kreizler relish the idea of competing in a love triangle with his friend?) and watched him walk off at night.

Yes, he was clearly manipulating Moore, in an effort to make him determined to be of more use in the investigation, and thus of more use to Kreitzler. Regarding the John/ Sarah/ Lazlo love triangle:  I think Kreitzler is paying blatant attention to Sarah for his own manipulative reasons. It is not that Kreitzler wants Sarah for himself or wants to compete with John for her attentions; it's that Kreitzler knows that creating that drama will depress, and thus motivate, John. But he's pretty shady, yeah. First intentionally manipulating John's vulnerbilities, then sending him off into the night in that state. Furthermore, the questions he asked of John in the carriage about Sarah (digging around her father's suicide, and whatnot) struck me not as casual or motivated by concern for John, but as very conscious and deliberate, as though Kreitlzer were trying to find out info to further manipulate Sarah in the future. Pretty shady. 

Lazlo's interaction with Sarah in the carriage at the end also struck me as rather deliberate, perhaps manipulative. He was sure to turn on the flattery and the charm at just the right time, just to get Sarah to do as he wanted--even though he didn't need to do so, and Sarah would have been happy to take part in the investigation regardless. It was as though he's buttering her up to do something else for him she wouldn't necessarily want to do at some point in the future. Furthermore, he was clearly flirting with her, but I can't help but feel he has no real romantic interest in her. Of course, he finds her beautiful and sexually attractive, but once again, it seemed as though his sweet talk in the carriage was largely manipulation, intended to spur both Sarah and John into the kind of behavior that he wanted from them. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Hazel55

[Calamity Jane]

20 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

I have an entire repertoire of not so nice sayings; fuckety fuck is one of my favorites.  ;-D

When I'm good and agitated, it's fuckety fuckety fuck fuck fuck.