Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[Mari]

True, but it's over the top enough that she can say "Kidding!  Totally kidding!  You thought I was serious?  Really?"  later.

[Rumsy4]

No, I don't mean that they'll show it having been disguised as the Grail, just that it'll play some part.  If not, then Jane just made it up because she has Greek mythology on the brain due to the current story arc being written.  Even so, the sheer WEIRDNESS of it kills me.  A heart?  Really?  Of ALL things to make look like the Grail?  A still-beating Titan heart!?

 

I know! She makes up this completely bizarre scenario on twitter to explain away a storytelling inconsistency. It's not even that big a deal, IMO. The mind boggles...

[YaddaYadda]

I don't even know if it's continuity or retcon...

 

Emma was told she needed to basically push down the darkness to be able to light the ember, she wouldn't have been able to do it as the Dark One. But she did just that in Storybrooke.

 

What gives?

[HoodlumSheep]

I think there's a fan theory that it means she's ready to douse out the Darkness. Like, how she couldn't light it in Camelot until she got over her fear of the future in that moment with Hook. She was ready to move forward. As shown in Storybrooke, she's trying to end the darkness (just her tactics are a little screwy).

So is the screwy DO mechanics and the mysterious snow globe (assuming it'll be forgotten about) the only two major Continuity Errors of the Week? Only on Once would we have to deal with such a thing. Although the DO stuff could probably be talked about in the Magic thread.

I guess the major question (until we learn more, I guess), is whether memory magic is strong enough to suppress Dark Oneness? No

one has tried to explain it away on twitter yet, have they? It doesn't bug me as much as it seems to others, but there's definitely some confusing stuff.

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[scarynikki12]

I think the memory removal was enough to prevent True Love's Kiss from taking effect but that the sword being returned to the stone was what prevented Hook from going full Dark One after they returned to Storybrooke.  It's only been a day, max, since Rumpel pulled it (this show and its timeline, I swear) which is why I think we hadn't yet seen any Dark One behavior.  I think we would have even if his memories hadn't been returned, it just would have been more gradual and given Emma enough time to complete her mission.

[HoodlumSheep]

I think the memory removal was enough to prevent True Love's Kiss from taking effect but that the sword being returned to the stone was what prevented Hook from going full Dark One after they returned to Storybrooke. It's only been a day, max, since Rumpel pulled it (this show and its timeline, I swear) which is why I think we hadn't yet seen any Dark One behavior. I think we would have even if his memories hadn't been returned, it just would have been more gradual and given Emma enough time to complete her mission.

Ooh, I agree to this entire post. Or at least I'm content fanwanking about this. I would be fine with this if this explains why Killian hasn't noticed he's slept, etc. his DO tendencies got sealed when the sword went back into the sword. And Dark Swan pretty much acts as his Clippy!Rumple instead (concerning being haunted by a "previous" Dark One).

I so hope by the end of this, the time lines match up. When the gang had returned to the diner at the end of 5x01, Zelena and Killian are in their regular Camelot clothes. So unless Emma was involved with the curse and made it a condition to put everyone back in their Camelot clothes so they wouldn't question why Zelena wasn't in her witch outfit or something, this means stuff has to have happened and Killian probably didn't go full Dark One.

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Serena]

So wouldn't taking the darkness out of Killian and Emma make Killian mortal again, and thus he would die? Or would they still be "Dark Ones", except without the "dark" part, but still immortal?

[Rumsy4]

Maybe someone/Emma commanded him to not use his DO powers using the broken Excalibur in Camelot. Once Excalibur was reforged, Emma said it couldn't control anyone.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ maybe there was a condition in the curse? Like, no magic powers for you, but it's totally cool if you get your memories back + all the evilness. You just can't use your powers (except the immortality doesn't cancel out).

We'll see if Darth Killy uses magic in the next episode. I have a crazy theory that with the reforged blade and with 2 dark ones, there's a power imbalance of sorts that allows Emma to channel all of Killy's possible magic powers. Therefore, Killian wouldn't really think something was different about himself.

Maybe the idea of putting excalibur back in the stone and putting Killy's powers on hold actually could be legit?

Yep, it's a weird theory.

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[snarkastic]

So, that 2 years earlier bit with Merida and Mulan was actually supposed to be 30 years earlier, the same way they did those flashbacks for Lancelot, Gwen, and Arthur being only 5 years earlier, right? They just don't seem to like including those 28 timeless years.

[LizaD]

 

So wouldn't taking the darkness out of Killian and Emma make Killian mortal again, and thus he would die? Or would they still be "Dark Ones", except without the "dark" part, but still immortal?

 

Yeah I didn't get that whole put the darkness in Zelena plan. Makes no damn sense cause Hook would be dead. Why would they be immortal without the dark part? The magic which is dark is the only thing that makes them immortal. Get rid of the magic, the immortality is gone too. That's what Merlin was saying when he created Excalibur to cut away his magic, that he would now be mortal like Nimue was.

 

That's how much thought they put into DS's plans. Zero. They just wanted Dark Hook and DS.

 

 

Emma was told she needed to basically push down the darkness to be able to light the ember, she wouldn't have been able to do it as the Dark One. But she did just that in Storybrooke.

I think it was already lit. She didn't have to relight it in the cave.

Edited November 16, 2015 by LizaD

[InsertWordHere]

So, that 2 years earlier bit with Merida and Mulan was actually supposed to be 30 years earlier, the same way they did those flashbacks for Lancelot, Gwen, and Arthur being only 5 years earlier, right? They just don't seem to like including those 28 timeless years.

No, it was after Ruby took the bean back to Fairytale Land in 3.22. Two years is still too long because Neal is not a toddler.

 

Edit: nevermind, I was confused about timestamps. Again.

Edited November 16, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[snarkastic]

No, it was after Ruby took the bean back to Fairytale Land in 3.22. Two years is still too long because Neal is not a toddler.

No not the part with Red. When Mulan trains Merida and Arthur killed Fergus. It was "2 years" before the "3 weeks earlier" quest for the helmet team up. So it has to be before Mulan met Belle and Phillip. Which was 30 years ago.

[Delphi]

They should really stop trying to give a linear timeline. It would make way more sense to just say, "before the first curse" or what have you. It would still be convoluted but it would be better than what we have now.

[MaiLuna]

How Dark is Hook anyway? Emma has all the DO darkness plus Rumpel's individual darkness. Killian only has Merlin's darkness and he didn't have many. He was only forced to tie up the Nevengers, push Emma to the floor and tried to choke Snow but stopped himself. I think Hook had more darkness in himself before the tethering than what he received from Merlin. I guess finding out what Emma did made him a bit darker, but there's no much new darkness anyway.

 

ETA: I forgot Merlin said tethering Hook would "multiply" the darkness. This doesn't make any sense.

Edited November 16, 2015 by MaiLuna

[Curio]

So is the screwy DO mechanics and the mysterious snow globe (assuming it'll be forgotten about) the only two major Continuity Errors of the Week? Only on Once would we have to deal with such a thing.

 

Nope, there was also a continuity error with one of Hook's rings. He said he took his big ring from a man named Barnaby who called him "One Hand Jones," but we've seen Killian wear that ring in front of Milah when he had two hands.

 

Why do the writers always insist on giving Hook all the continuity errors? First he messes up in front of Rumple about Belle telling Hook, Emma, and Elsa about her past with Anna, then he forgets that he saw Regina hold the Dark One dagger during the fairy spell, then he screws up the history with how his hook got enchanted by Regina to take a heart, and now he messes up about how he got his pirate ring. Either Hook is a habitual liar at this point, or he's been concussed so many times throughout his long life that he's blurring the events in his past.

 

Or, the writers just suck.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Curio

[kili]

He was only forced to tie up the Nevengers, push Emma to the floor and tried to choke Snow but stopped himself.

 

The darkness is lame-o with its blame-o. Why should Merlin collect dark points for doing things magic makes him do? Shouldn't that be darkening Arthur not Merlin? If I use inanimate objects to do my dark magic, does that mean that nobody turns dark?

 

ETA: I forgot Merlin said tethering Hook would "multiply" the darkness.

 

It looks like it's actually using a logathmic scale. Hook was looking some scary dark for the amount of darkness he got from one tied to a tree and choking episode.

 

This doesn't make any sense.

 

Calvinball!

Edited November 16, 2015 by kili

[HoodlumSheep]

Well there was one Dark One, and now there's 2. It seems multiplied to me??

Maye Emma plans to rid only the darkness part and keep the immortality? Most likely they figured the wound would be no more after de-magic-ing, but forgot it can't be healed. I'm sure someone on twitter will think of something. Or, there could be spoilery stuff surrounding it too, possibly.

Maybe the piratey guy was also a college frat-boy like character and his calling him "one-handed jones" had a different meaning. And could therefore not mess with the continuity. :P

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

When Mulan trains Merida and Arthur killed Fergus. It was "2 years" before the "3 weeks earlier" quest for the helmet team up. So it has to be before Mulan met Belle and Phillip. Which was 30 years ago.

 

This confused me too.  If this was before Mulan met Belle and Philip, why was she so expressive and fancy-free?  She was awfully uptight and lacking in any sense of humor in her adventures with Belle, and when we first saw her in 2A.   Here, she was completely relaxed with Merida of all people.  How far did Mulan spread her business card to be giving fighting lessons in Merida's land.

[Curio]

Maybe the piratey guy was also a college frat-boy like character and his calling him "one-handed jones" had a different meaning. And could therefore not mess with the continuity. :P

 

I really hope his favorite wasn't his left.

 

Wait! I think I've got it. So we've seen Killian wear that large, red ring on his finger in front of Milah during his two-hand days, so let's just say he stole it from some random treasure chest before he met Milah and really liked it. In comes Dark One Rumple and he chops off Hook's hand. Hook immediately becomes "One Hand Jones" and sails off to Neverland. During one of his grocery runs for Pan during the 100-200 years he's on the island, Hook gets into a poker match against a man named Barnaby. He thinks he has the winning hand and bets his favorite ring, but Barnaby pulls out a straight flush and takes the ring from Hook. Years later, on another Pan grocery run, Hook runs into this Barnaby fellow and his wife. Barnaby makes the grave mistake of mocking his gambling win against "One Hand Jones," Hook offs him, takes the ring, and boom! Continuity restored.

 

Something, something, "isn't it fun to fill in the blanks"...

Edited November 17, 2015 by Curio

[HoodlumSheep]

^ Problem solved :D

[Faemonic]

^^ Bwahaha, Killian and his grocery runs. "Pan said chips, not crisps! Go back and I hope you kept the receipt!"

 

I got this quote from the Morality and Social Issues thread, which got it from here, but I can't find it:

Why should Merlin collect dark points for doing things magic makes him do? Shouldn't that be darkening Arthur not Merlin? If I use inanimate objects to do my dark magic, does that mean that nobody turns dark?

I thought the Price of magic had to be paid by the person requesting stuff of the Dark One to do? Doesn't that work the same with the Grail One? So, as Arthur is the one doing the things, using Merlin's Grail One powers, so yes it should be Arthur going dark...

[Mari]

It should be, but if Arthur was collecting the evil points, where did the Dark One goop that Emma vacuumed out of Merlin come from?

[Rumsy4]

Unless that was Emma's Dark Magic untethering Merlin from Excalibur. 

[HoodlumSheep]

^ could be.

[Rumsy4]

So if Regina enchanted Zelena's cuff so she couldn't cut off her hand and Hook had to use magic to get it off her, how did Arthur remove the cuff in Camelot?

[Camera One]

Apparently, Arthur is really good at magic, and Merlin's spells are like those easy-bake cake mixes in the supermarket that anyone can use.  Which makes you wonder why he didn't just brew enough magic to fill all his inadequacies as King.  His subjects think he has the sword and is a legitimate king, he glamorized for himself a great kingdom, what more can the whole Excalibur give him?  I know he was obsessed but you need a little more than that to believe why he's acting the way he is.  I sympathesized with him a little in his centric, but since then, he has become a caricature of epic proportions.

[Mari]

Maybe the spell was Zelena specific? Any one else could tamper with it, but it wouldn't let Zelena?

[Writing Wrongs]

Why would Dark Killian still have his hook? I love this pic:

http://kissthemgoodbye.net/onceuponatime/albums/SEASON%205/8/Once_Upon_a_Time_S05E08_1080p__2840.jpg

[Curio]

Why would Dark Killian still have his hook? I love this pic:

http://kissthemgoodbye.net/onceuponatime/albums/SEASON%205/8/Once_Upon_a_Time_S05E08_1080p__2840.jpg

 

(Embarrassing Fan Moment: I actually clapped at this reveal the first time I watched it. It just looks so freaking epic.)

Edited November 17, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Why would Dark Killian still have his hook? I love this pic:

http://kissthemgoodbye.net/onceuponatime/albums/SEASON%205/8/Once_Upon_a_Time_S05E08_1080p__2840.jpg

Because it would be horrible not to have it once he's not the Dark One anymore?

 

This isn't a limp, it's a missing limb at the end of the day.

 

That cloak looks like weighs a 100 pounds.

[Serena]

It looks like it's 50 sizes too big.

[InsertWordHere]

Hang on, didn't they mean "3 weeks ago" as in 3 weeks before the specific day it was in Storybrooke that we saw in the episode? If they were counting from the day everyone arrives back in Storybrooke, then it would be 3 weeks, but it's been a significant amount of time since then. The question is, how long has passed since they arrived back in Stroybrooke? How long Hook was the Dark One in Camelot for will depend on the answer. If they've been back a week, then he would have become the Dark One at the 4-week mark in Camelot, which would be "3 weeks ago". I'm going to stop now before this convoluted timeline gives me a headache.

I think it's been at least a week since they returned from Camelot and Hook wasn't the Dark One in Camelot for three weeks. Mostly because you don't throw a street fair for disheartened people two days after they get transported to another land. Okay, you shouldn't throw a street fair for these people anyway when there are other things to be doing, but I feel like it would take the Camelot people at least four days to reach the point where they need a street fair.

 

Is it possible that Emma used the Camelot illusion powder on Hook and that's why he couldn't tell he has magic?

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I guess we'll see. Maybe the next episode will help connect the dots, and we won't have to fanwank about stuff quite as hard.

[Shanna Marie]

I've been trying to reconcile the timeline again (yeah, I know, but it beats what I really should be doing), trying to see how the "two years ago" might fit in, and I almost had it all worked out that it could just have squeaked in right before the curse if "two years ago" is plus or minus about five months, since they're not going to do a "two years and three months ago" caption. But then I remembered where Mulan's story intersects Belle's, and where Belle's story intersects Grumpy's, and where Grumpy's story intersects Snow's, so the Mulan and Belle adventure where they freed Philip had to have been at least a year before the curse, since it was before Grumpy met Snow, which means that after those events Snow and Charming went through all their back-and-forth including the poisoned apple, they fought the war to get back their kingdom(s), and then there was an entire pregnancy. So, the only way the Mulan and Merida backstory could have been two years ago (minus the 28 years of the curse -- and I'm still irked about how that now applies to everything, everywhere, even those who didn't get sent to Storybrooke, and even though they came up with a clever way to have frozen Arendelle all this time -- boy, did Regina screw up everyone's lives) was if Mulan had her adventure with Belle, then went her separate way from Philip, picked up a few odd jobs, including this one, and then ran into Philip again right before the curse or right after time started moving again. That could explain her different demeanor. I don't remember, did he specifically talk about Aurora to Mulan after his curse was broken? Because if she met a cute guy and liked him and things were going well with her, then she might have been cheerier, as she was here, but then she ran into him again and learned that he was engaged, but she helped him hunt for his fiancee to save her, so she might have been a bit grumpier about helping the guy she liked find the woman he loved. And then she fell in love with that woman and got grumpier still when she felt she missed out by not saying anything.

[Camera One]

What's more sickening is that Hook could have Rumple's memories of killing Milah. Yes, Hook was there, but now he'd have a different set of memories and emotions from her death. I suppose he could even "remember" almost crushing his own heart. That could get complicated. LOL

 

Is the Shared Dark One Memory thing going to bite the Writers in the butt?  Would Emma and Hook hereafter know all of Rumple's little secrets and know of every magical spell and object?  Plus is the memories only of their lives AFTER becoming the Dark One, or it will surely become awkward as both Emma and Hook would have Nimue's memories of sleeping with Merlin.

[InsertWordHere]

And if it's their entire life before and after darkening, then Emma would have Rumple's memories of changing Bae's nappies. Weird.

[pezgirl7]

Will Hook and Emma be able to share memories? Or does it only work for past DOs? I really hope that Hook and Emma share some kind of magical DO bond, even if it's just sensing when the other is near.

[Shanna Marie]

Potentially having access to the memories doesn't necessarily mean they automatically remember everything every prior Dark One experienced. After all, we don't go around all the time remembering everything that ever happened to us. Memories come up when something triggers them. So it might be possible that, say, encountering real Rumple might trigger Dark One Rumple's memories of past encounters with Hook for Hook, making him see it from his perspective. But neither he nor Emma is likely to spend all the time watching the "This is your life, Rumplestilstkin!" show. Emma, at least, seems to be pretty compartmentalized. She has the nagging Clippy Rumple in her head, but we don't know if that means she's actually accessing his memories or if that's just the way she's hearing the inner darkness. It seems to be able to nag at her, but does it work the other way, where she can try to access specific memories to get information?

 

My guess is that only memories from the time the prior personas were Dark Ones would transfer, because that's all the Dark One was present for. There might be wisps of memories of memories -- remembering the prior host remembering something from earlier in life -- but I doubt that means Emma's going to be getting vivid Technicolor playback of changing Bae's diapers.

 

However, if Hook gets a Clippy Rumple, he might be getting Milah's death from Rumple's perspective on a loop because that's a guaranteed way to drive Hook deeper into darkness.

[Camera One]

but does it work the other way, where she can try to access specific memories to get information?

 

She did know that Rumple had Squid Ink and she knew where he hid it.  But then again, Rumple only has a single safe and everything that anyone ever needs is in there.

[KingOfHearts]

So how the heck did August enter Storybrooke while the town was cursed? Ingrid needed a scroll to get into it. I can give Henry a slide because Regina probably adjusted the curse to allow him inside the barrier after she adopted him.

Edited November 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Emma's movers got into town somehow too. I think Emma's presence and time moving again, even without the curse being broken, was enough to let people who were looking for it find the town.

Edited November 24, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Camera One]

I think InsertWordHere might be right.  Regina wasn't that surprised a stranger got in.

 

So how the heck did August enter Storybrooke while the town was cursed? Ingrid needed a scroll to get into it. I can give Henry a slide because Regina probably adjusted the curse to allow him inside the barrier after she adopted him.

 

The Apprentice probably slipped him a Scroll too.  Since he's helpful like that.

[YaddaYadda]

I've been wondering about something.

 

The Dark One's dagger, and Excalibur. Excalibur as a whole can cut away immortal ties. Excalibur as a broken sword does nothing. If someone is cut by it, they're basically living on a prayer that the sword never gets put back together.

 

What about the Dark One's dagger? We know it's been used to commit murder, likely ended the lives of several Dark Ones in the past, plus it took Pan out.

 

What's up with that?

[InsertWordHere]

The Dark One's dagger, and Excalibur. Excalibur as a whole can cut away immortal ties. Excalibur as a broken sword does nothing. If someone is cut by it, they're basically living on a prayer that the sword never gets put back together.

But broken Excalibur does cause fatal wounds. That's what happened to Hook. Maybe the magic being used on the sword when Emma was about to connect it to the dagger aggravated his wound but he was going to die anyway, with or without the sword being put together.

[YaddaYadda]

But broken Excalibur does cause fatal wounds. That's what happened to Hook. Maybe the magic being used on the sword when Emma was about to connect it to the dagger aggravated his wound but he was going to die anyway, with or without the sword being put together.

 

See, this is where my disconnect is with the story is. The way I understood it is that a cut is a cut, and nothing more when the blade isn't whole. But then the cut kills the person when the swords are being put together. It's a death sentence when the sword is reforged, but not before.

 

I blame the writing for the half-assed explanations.

[Shanna Marie]

The way I understood it is that a cut is a cut, and nothing more when the blade isn't whole. But then the cut kills the person when the swords are being put together. It's a death sentence when the sword is reforged, but not before.

That was my read, as well. Hook had what looked like a scratch, Emma healed it, and he was fine for quite some time. Then they started reforging the sword and he collapsed from a gaping wound on his neck. Though I wasn't entirely clear on whether it was that wounds from Excalibur don't heal (I thought that's what Merlin said) and so if the wound was potentially fatal, you were doomed, or whether it was that even the tiniest scratch from Excalibur was fatal.

 

Either way, you'd think Merlin would have warned them before they went to get the sword. What happened if someone was clumsy while grabbing it?

[Rumsy4]

So, a wound from broken Excalibur is retroactively fatal if it is forged into a whole sword? My head is spinning...

[Shanna Marie]

So, a wound from broken Excalibur is retroactively fatal if it is forged into a whole sword? My head is spinning...

I wonder how many people keeled over as soon as the sword was reforged. I'm actually surprised it didn't kill Arthur, as much time as he spent playing with that sword. It's a miracle he never cut himself.

[regularlyleaded]

But broken Excalibur does cause fatal wounds. That's what happened to Hook. Maybe the magic being used on the sword when Emma was about to connect it to the dagger aggravated his wound but he was going to die anyway, with or without the sword being put together.

IA with this. Hook would have fallen over dead whether the sword got reforged or not. And the sword wasn't reforged. Emma only started the process but it was never completed. I would think that if reforging the sword made scratches lethal then the whole process would have needed to be completed to actually have an effect, not just kinda, sorta started then the whole process stopped before even the two pieces even touched. The sword was never actually reforged.

 

I think the reason Hook dropped when he did was done merely for dramatic effect. He could've keeled over while Emma and he were speaking about their future and he was trying to help her get the spark to turn into the flame. He was already mortally wounded and dying but it wasn't evident. But the writers just decided it would be more dramatic to have him fall over just as it appeared that Emma was going to finally succeed where Merlin had failed, and successfully reforge the sword and get rid of the darkness. It was for their love of "twists" that the writers had it happen at that moment.

 

The writers had Hook keel over when Emma was in the process of starting to reunite the two halves of the sword because it made it ten times more dramatic that Emma was just one act away from freeing herself from the darkness, and instead, in an attempt to save Hook, she fell dramatically further into the darkness, taking her "final step into the dark" as it were.

Edited November 24, 2015 by regularlyleaded