Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[Camera One]

With the news that there will be a live action Mulan movie, just expect that no one will be leaving Storybrooke in Season 5 because of The Great Wall of China.

[Camera One]

New clue about the real continuity fairy who knows all. Or maybe it's the discontinuity fairy.

 

Jessica Williams ‏@CaptNonchalant Mar 29

@JaneEspenson Cool. Is it hard to keep track of past storylines and make sure nothing contradicts them or is it all engrained in your head?

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson

@CaptNonchalant it's incredibly hard. @AndrewChambliss has it all in his head. I certainly don't.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

Then somebody needs to tell Chambliss to speak up more during writer meetings.

[snarkastic]

While it's been pointed out that Ursula and Cruella didn't age over the last 30 years (for unknown reasons that I actually think they'll try to be clever and explain away), I don't know the explanation as to why Cruella, Ursula, and Lily didn't get sucked back to Fairy Tale Land when the First Dark Curse was destroyed? If Hook, Neal, Tinkerbell, Pinocchio, Alexandra, (supposed to have) Emma, and (likely) Ingrid were all sent back, even though none of them came with the curse, why weren't these new characters? If the explanation is that 'they weren't in Storybrooke when the curse was destroyed' I'm going to throw something, because that means all those people could have just crossed the town line and gotten the heck away from all that mayhem.

[Rumsy4]

I don't know the explanation as to why Cruella, Ursula, and Lily didn't get sucked back to Fairy Tale Land when the First Dark Curse was destroyed? If Hook, Neal, Tinkerbell, Pinocchio, Alexandra, (supposed to have) Emma, and (likely) Ingrid were all sent back, even though none of them came with the curse, why weren't these new characters? If the explanation is that 'they weren't in Storybrooke when the curse was destroyed' I'm going to throw something, because that means all those people could have just crossed the town line and gotten the heck away from all that mayhem.

 

OMG!! That's just dreadful... 

[Curio]

Jessica Williams ‏@CaptNonchalant Mar 29

@JaneEspenson Cool. Is it hard to keep track of past storylines and make sure nothing contradicts them or is it all engrained in your head?

 

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson

@CaptNonchalant it's incredibly hard. @AndrewChambliss has it all in his head. I certainly don't.

 

Why don't you have it in your head, Jane? Isn't that your job as a writer to know as much about your show as possible? I understand not remembering every minute detail and quote in your head, but on a show as complicated as this, if I were a writer, I'd be going back and rewatching old episodes constantly and I would have a show bible that I'd look at every day to make sure I wasn't screwing something up.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Curio

[pezgirl7]

If the explanation is that 'they weren't in Storybrooke when the curse was destroyed' I'm going to throw something, because that means all those people could have just crossed the town line and gotten the heck away from all that mayhem.

 

I thought they would lose their memories if they crossed the town line? That's why Regina had to give Emma and Henry fake memories. Unless you're talking about a different curse, I can't keep them straight!

[Zuleikha]

don't know the explanation as to why Cruella, Ursula, and Lily didn't get sucked back to Fairy Tale Land when the First Dark Curse was destroyed?

 

Because the writers hadn't decided they existed yet. :) 

 

I think what how they'd wank that one is to say that fairy-tale land residents who hadn't been brought by the curse needed to step foot in Storybrooke to be registered by it. So if they'd ever entered Storybrooke and left, they would have been brought sucked back along with everyone else. Since they didn't, they were left in New York or wherever. But IMHO, they really should have been brought back and it's a continuity error that they weren't. (Except maybe Lily since she has part of Emma's savior essence transferred into her)

[Rumsy4]

I thought they would lose their memories if they crossed the town line? That's why Regina had to give Emma and Henry fake memories. 

 

Regina said everyone originally not from the Real World would go back to their respective magical lands when she reversed the Dark Curse Prime. If Neal and Hook could also have stayed behind, Regina would just need to have doled out false memories to them in addition to Emma and Henry, and made it so they all knew each other in the Real World. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[snarkastic]

I thought they would lose their memories if they crossed the town line? That's why Regina had to give Emma and Henry fake memories. Unless you're talking about a different curse, I can't keep them straight!

 

Well, she said it would be like Storybrooke never existed, so any memories of being in Storybrooke would be erased. The big issue there would be with Henry having zero memories, hence the substitutes.

 

I think what how they'd wank that one is to say that fairy-tale land residents who hadn't been brought by the curse needed to step foot in Storybrooke to be registered by it. So if they'd ever entered Storybrooke and left, they would have been brought sucked back along with everyone else. Since they didn't, they were left in New York or wherever. But IMHO, they really should have been brought back and it's a continuity error that they weren't. (Except maybe Lily since she has part of Emma's savior essence transferred into her)

 

Yeah, I'm sure that's the 'explanation' they'll go with.

 

Personally, I'm just getting real tired of having to head canon every single thing that happens on this show because they give no explanations, and when they do, it's on twitter and still doesn't make much sense, or creates additional problems.

Edited April 8, 2015 by snarkastic

[KAOS Agent]

 

Why don't you have it in your head, Jane? Isn't that your job as a writer to know as much about your show as possible? I understand not remembering every minute detail and quote in your head, but on a show as complicated as this, if I were a writer, I'd be going back and rewatching old episodes constantly and I would have a show bible that I'd look at every day to make sure I wasn't screwing something up.

 

While I think it is very important that all of the writers watch every episode of the show and actually rewatch as a refresher before the planning for the new season, I have to cut them a little slack because the scripts are written to provide sixty minutes of material and a lot gets cut. Now often it's a lot of filler and unimportant stuff, but we've seen several cases where they've filmed things in an episode and it turns out that it's not only removed from the episode, but that the idea is completely changed and used for a plot in a different way. 

 

For example, there was a scene of Regina and Archie giving Henry the storybook very early in 3B that was filmed. We know this because it was included in the episode stills for the episode. If I am the writer of that episode, I probably spent some time working through that scene and how it would develop. It being removed from the final product and ultimately changed completely is going to be hard to change in my mind because I created the initial story and most likely had little input on the later development. [As an aside, I think this particular example goes to show how little time is spent on what should be major details of the plot (restoring Henry's memory) when they initially plot out the half season arc which is a whole 'nother discussion]

 

On a separate level, there are also scenes that include dialogue that is eventually cut for time. This is one case where it would be extremely hard to expect a writer to remember that some important detail was cut out because they see a part of that scene on screen. For example. people rag on Belle for selling stolen goods in the pawn shop, but there was an extended scene released where Zelena came in to shop and Belle said she couldn't really sell her anything because she's still trying to catalog what belongs to whom to get it back to them. If I'm the writer of that episode and I later see people attacking Belle, I'd be confused because I know that I covered the issue of Belle selling stolen goods and I can even remember seeing the scene where that dialogue should have occurred in the episode. The writers are too close to the source to be able to separate out things that were written and what appeared onscreen.

 

There is also an issue of things needing to be written long before other episodes are filmed/edited which can make things hard on the writers to cover for. Even having a bible can't help you there when the finished product doesn't exist. It doesn't excuse so many of the gaping plot holes and retcons in this show, but they do deserve some understanding for getting things mixed up.

[OnceUponAJen]

Even having a bible can't help you there when the finished product doesn't exist. It doesn't excuse so many of the gaping plot holes and retcons in this show, but they do deserve some understanding for getting things mixed up.

I think so too. I've often wondered how much of the problem is the editing (and leaving out important scenes and dialogue) rather than just the writing.

[Delphi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Emma was going to be sucked back to the enchanted forest as well, but Henry wasn't. And I was under the impression that they needed someone to watch Henry. But I think Emma escaped going back buy going over the town line.

[Rumsy4]

You are right, Delphi. As the "savior", she could escape.

[KingOfHearts]

So according to Once, Dorothy Gale went to Oz in the early 1980s. Isn't it strange that, in a country with such a popularized movie, that a girl with the same name, location and looks went to Oz without anyone realizing the connection?

[Shanna Marie]

Isn't it strange that, in a country with such a popularized movie, that a girl with the same name, location and looks went to Oz without anyone realizing the connection?

Wow, the meta could have been glorious. Either she felt stuck with that name and was so over all the jokes, so her reaction to landing in Oz would have been, "Yeah, of course this would happen to me," or she embraced the identity and spent her life essentially cosplaying as the movie Dorothy, so her reaction would have been, "Yes! I knew it had to be real!"

 

Or I wonder if her "Kansas" was supposed to really be our world or maybe was like Alice's "Not Really Our Victorian England."

[orza]

So according to Once, Dorothy Gale went to Oz in the early 1980s. Isn't it strange that, in a country with such a popularized movie, that a girl with the same name, location and looks went to Oz without anyone realizing the connection?

Adam said in an interview that they had to base the Oz story arc on the books, not on the movie because they didn't have the rights to any of the MGM material, hence the silver shoes and instead of ruby slippers, casting a youngish, attractive actress to play the wicked witch and a skinny wizard instead of a chubby older man. As far as the OUAT universe is concerned, the movie didn't exist because in the real world either MGM didn't grant the rights or they didn't have budget for the license fees.. This was disclosed up front before 3b was filmed.

Edited April 10, 2015 by orza

[Shanna Marie]

As far as the OUAT universe is concerned, the movie didn't exist because in the real world either MGM didn't grant the rights or they didn't have budget for the license fees.

But the books existed. Something existed because Grumpy was able to make the wisecrack about which witch it was and how to deal with her based on whether you dropped a house on her or dumped water on her. And didn't they talk about whether it would be easy to recognize the Wicked Witch in Storybrooke based on her being green? The characters seemed to be aware of the pop-culture reference. They may have based their Oz stuff on the books rather than the movie, but the characters with cursed identities from our world seemed to be well aware of either the movie or the books.

 

And while they did use the silver slippers (from the book) rather than the MGM-trademarked ruby slippers, their Dorothy still looked a lot more like Judy Garland than like the original illustrations in the book.

[orza]

The movie was off limits and the more such meta references they add to the show the more they open themselves up to possible legal issues if MGM cared to challenge them whether some book detail was made iconic through the movie or not. This is really not hard to understand. The show is a business that has to operate in the real world with all the same constraints of copyright infringement, trademark dilution and intellectual property rights that other businesses face. Adding a few meta references that a miniscule minority of viewers might find interesting is not worth it from a business perspective. Besides, it sounds like pretty boring stuff to throw in when it doesn't add anything to the story and would only waste screen time that could be be better put to use in other ways.

Edited April 10, 2015 by orza

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. The point was that the characters who have experience in our world were culturally aware of The Wizard of Oz. But Dorothy as shown here had to have been from the 1980s in our world and seemingly had no cultural awareness of anything relating to Oz. It has nothing to do with trademark issues.

 

Really, it comes back to the usual worldbuilding issue, where they don't seem to have considered the link between the real people that exist in these other worlds and the fact that there are stories about them as fictional characters in our world. The Author plot only explains some of it but doesn't help with the timeline discrepancies. There have been stories about Snow White in our world for centuries, but she was born only maybe 50 years ago. On the other hand, Hook and Pan were around long before JM Barrie wrote about them. And then there's Dorothy from the 1980s (unless it was a time traveling tornado), decades after her story was told.

[pezgirl7]

I don't think we can assume that Dorothy was from the 1980s. I think she very well could have time traveled with the tornado, especially since her outfit did not look like it was from the 80s, and we've seen time-traveling portals before. But that doesn't explain why other stories were written before certain characters were born. Either the authors can time travel, or time passes different in all the realms. Although the one missing year spent in the EF seemed to match up with one year for Emma and Henry in NYC.

[Zuleikha]

Heck, how could Grumpy have made the crack about the way to kill the Wicked Witch when in the Oz we saw, the Witch of the East was good and not evil, Dorothy's house didn't land on her, and the events that turned Zelena green and wicked had happened what? a year or two ago?

 

Zelena could have been a Wicked Witch of the West, but she couldn't have been THE Wicked Witch of the West whose story somehow made it to Baum as the Wizard of Oz. That must have either been some kind of prophecy about Zelena that got twisted as it drifted its way through time and space into Baum's imagination or it's the tale of a different Wicked Witch of the West.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina mentioned the Lollipop Guild, which from what I recall was only in the movie. As far as Dorothy's outfit goes, I doubt rural Kansas kept up with 80s fashions.

Edited April 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[snarkastic]

I just always assumed Dorothy was from the Land Without Colour, like Dr. Frankenstein, so she wouldn't have any reference to the Oz books or movies.

[Shanna Marie]

As far as Dorothy's outfit goes, I doubt rural Kansas kept up with 80s fashions.

Sadly, c1981-1982, the "prairie" look was actually pretty big -- gingham, calico, pinafores, puff-sleeve blouses, flounces, etc. Dorothy would have fit right in at my junior high school.

 

The whole "new wave" thing with ultramodern asymmetry, color blocks, etc., that we now think of as "80s" fashion came about a year later, probably as backlash to the prairie look, though the puff-sleeve blouses hung around for a while before morphing into giant shoulder pads.

 

But yeah, all the references they made to Oz-related stuff came from either book or movie and not the "real" Oz, so the book/movie does exist in the Once reality. For the sake of sanity, let's assume that Dorothy was either from another world, the Kansas version of Alice's not!London or perhaps the sepia-tinted version of the World Without Color, or else the tornado that took her from one world to another threw her forward in time and the silver slippers took her home back in time.

[Delphi]

I don't think we can assume that Dorothy was from the 1980s. I think she very well could have time traveled with the tornado, especially since her outfit did not look like it was from the 80s, and we've seen time-traveling portals before. But that doesn't explain why other stories were written before certain characters were born. Either the authors can time travel, or time passes different in all the realms. Although the one missing year spent in the EF seemed to match up with one year for Emma and Henry in NYC.

Time in the enchanted forest could always be like Narnia time, sometimes it syncs up with ours, other times years or decades could pass.

[KingOfHearts]

I just always assumed Dorothy was from the Land Without Colour, like Dr. Frankenstein, so she wouldn't have any reference to the Oz books or movies.

That would be neat. Unfortunately the show didn't care about non-Zelena Oz characters enough to write that in. I fully expected Dorothy to be integral to the plot somehow.

Edited April 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

You're forgetting a very important character - The Author's Best Friend.  This individual can time travel, and bring stories from anytime to Earth.  He's in Storybrooke right now and regularly travels back to the medieval times to spread these tales.  It was he who went back in time and told Baum about the Wizard of Oz.  By the way, he was Snow White's long lost brother who married Ariel's stepsister while board the ship of Hook's half-uncle who dated Cora, yet he's as old as time and christened Rumple as a child.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Camera One

[ilovefairytales]

I know that Rumple is Gold and Gold is Rumple, but I'm curious as to why we've seen other villains like The Wicked Witch in her full on green skin in Storybrooke, but Mr. Gold or Regina has never done so. 

 

Ursula, Maleficent and Cruella either looked the same or could transform in both storybook and the other realm. 

Why haven't we seen Full On RumpleStiltskin in Storybrooke? 

 

Is it because of the curse?

[dr pepper]

The curse is long gone. The reason we can't get glitter, "Tee Hee Hee" and "Dearie" in Storybrooke is probably a writer oops.

[ParadoxLost]

This probably belongs in the magic thread, but....

 

We've hade Evil Queen in Storybrooke during the glass in your eyes curse.  I fanwank that extraordinary measures must be taken to strip the Storybrooke alter egos enough to make glitter Rumpel show up.

[KingOfHearts]

 

but I'm curious as to why we've seen other villains like The Wicked Witch in her full on green skin in Storybrooke

Zelena never had green skin in Storybrooke.

[FormerMod-a1]

Merged the last few posts into this existing Questions thread.

[Rumsy4]

None of the people with cursed personas reverted to their EF selves in Storybrooke. For example, Archie didn't turn back into a cricket. The dwarfs are all human here, etc.. And as KoH said, Zelena had normal skin in Storybrooke. The "Evil Queen" is merely Regina in a royal (and form-fitting, I may add) costume and does not involve any physical changes. So, it's no wonder that Rumple doesn't have his reptilian skin in Storybrooke.

 

Ursula and Cruella never had cursed personas. As for Mal, Regina brought her to Storybrooke in dragon form. That's probably why she can change back and forth in both realms. 

[FormerMod-a1]

Originally I thought that Archie and the Fairies, etc stayed human because even though the Curse broke, they were still in the Land Without Magic, so they just couldn't revert.  But then Rumple brought back magic and now we're several similar-but-different curses later and who knows.  I just "go with it" and don't think about it.

[Amerilla]

Emerging briefly from Lurker Mode:

 

From what we've seen, Rumpel, Archie, Blue and the Fairies and the like can only manifest their "enchanted" forms in Fairy Tale Land and some adjacent magical realms.

 

Under Regina's vision, the original Dark Curse was potent enough to create a hybrid "island" within the Land Without Magic. She could control the parameters of her victims' existence and the movement of time, but since Storybrooke is technically in the Land Without Magic, the physical forms of the characters remain constrained by the "rules" of this land, both during and after the curse.

 

When Gold "brings magic back" at the end of S1, it's his personal artisanel recipe that oh-so-conveniently allows those who can practice magic to let it fly, but it doesn't transform Storybrooke back into an enchanted realm.  

 

Like most things involving This Show, These Writers, most of it doesn't make much sense if you think about any of it for more than a few seconds, but even they recognize that a little of Imp!Rumpel goes a long way, and CGI-ing the Boob Fairy is expensive.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Amerilla

[Writing Wrongs]

Why did Ingrid decide to unfreeze everyone in Arendelle?

 

Maybe that happened automatically when she crossed over to Our World?

[Camera One]

We still don't know how the Regina/Robin kiss outside the Tavern page appeared out of nowhere, right?  With the reveal of the Rogue Writer trapped in the book, I thought maybe the Rogue Author could have produced that page to get someone to set him free.  But the page with the Door was in August's satchel until a few episodes ago, so that couldn't have been the reason for the Regina/Robin page, since that appeared in 4A.  

Edited April 25, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Wasn't the door actually part of the book?  I thought August took it out.

 

Actually, Gold made it sound like no other author took over the one who was trapped inside the book for the Apprentice.  If that's the case, then how did the story continue being recorded?

 

The story about Snowing doing what they did to Maleficent was also recorded in the book, was it not?  Then how did no one know about it since Emma and Henry especially knows that book and the stories in it like the back of his hand?

 

Was the story removed?  This happens after Snowing have taken the kingdom back, after they get married, after Regina shows up to threaten their happiness...

[Mari]

Since according to the Cruella episode, it doesn't matter whether something is in the book or not--it only matters what pen and ink are used--how does any of it fit together?  What's the point of something being in the book or not?

[Camera One]

Yes, the Door was in the book until August took it out.  The page with the Door (thus the Rogue Author) was in August's satchel all along, so it couldn't have anything to do with the appearing page with Robin/Regina kissing that appeared in 4A.  

 

The story about Snowing doing what they did to Maleficent was also recorded in the book, was it not?  Then how did no one know about it since Emma and Henry especially knows that book and the stories in it like the back of his hand?

 

Good point.  Though A&E could say the Sorcerer's Apprentice removed that story when he fired the Rogue Writer.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes, the Door was in the book until August took it out.

I'm surprised Henry didn't notice it was missing. I wonder what story it was attached to and why it was one of the Mad Hatter's doors.

[Camera One]

Henry didn't notice a lot of things in the supposed all-encompassing book.  What about the story of Evil Eva and what she did to Cora.  What about Zelena's sob story?  Shouldn't Henry have recognized Peter Pan's face from the book?  What about Anna's adventures in the Enchanted Forest?   

[KingOfHearts]

 

Henry didn't notice a lot of things in the supposed all-encompassing book.  What about the story of Evil Eva and what she did to Cora.  What about Zelena's sob story?  Shouldn't Henry have recognized Peter Pan's face from the book?  What about Anna's adventures in the Enchanted Forest?

And that proposes another question... what's in the book? What's not? I know Snow and Charming's mishap was in there because we saw Isaac writing it in the same book as the door was in. Wouldn't Henry know about Lily? Wouldn't Emma? I'm pretty that incident had to come up somewhere in Operation Cobra or Operation Mongoose or whatever crap Henry is pulling these days.

[Rumsy4]

I don't think all those stories were in Henry's book. It probably runs into multiple volumes. We saw tons of blank books in the Sorcerer's mansion (where is he btw?).

The Author was trapped in the book--not in the door. It probably was him who made that page appear in Robin's satchel.

[YaddaYadda]

The Author was trapped in the book--not in the door.

 

But the Apprentice trapped him the book he was currently writing which turned out to be Henry's book, correct?  This whole thing with Maleficent happens while Snow is pregnant a few months before the dark curse, weeks after Regina has crashed the wedding.

 

Either there's a whole chunk missing or A&E are terrible storytellers.

 

Honestly, I don't even know why I bother with this, because seriously...

[Joenigma]

 

The Author was trapped in the book--not in the door.

But the Apprentice trapped him the book he was currently writing which turned out to be Henry's book, correct?  This whole thing with Maleficent happens while Snow is pregnant a few months before the dark curse, weeks after Regina has crashed the wedding.

 

Either there's a whole chunk missing or A&E are terrible storytellers.

 

Honestly, I don't even know why I bother with this, because seriously...

 

And since those stories appear in the book even when the Author was trapped it means someone wrote those "pages." We saw Rumple with the Author's pen. Is it possible he wrote the pages from the time the Author was trapped to when Regina enacted the curse?

[Rumsy4]

But the Apprentice trapped him the book he was currently writing which turned out to be Henry's book, correct?  This whole thing with Maleficent happens while Snow is pregnant a few months before the dark curse, weeks after Regina has crashed the wedding.

 

Maybe the Apprentice got rid of the baby napping story after he trapped the Author in it because he didn't want it generally known. Or the Dragon somehow had those pages along with the page of the Door. How else would August have known about the Apprentice trapping Isaac inside the book? 

 

This still doesn't explain who wrote the events that happened after the Author was trapped inside. 

 

 

 

Either there's a whole chunk missing or A&E are terrible storytellers.

 

There's that of course... :-p

Edited April 25, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

This still doesn't explain who wrote the events that happened after the Author was trapped inside.

 

Unless I completely misunderstood, apparently no one, according to Rumple.  Maybe the Apprentice or the Sorcerer took over until they could find someone deemed trustworthy?  When the book changed in last year's finale, does it mean that the Author added Hook and Emma in there?

 

This plot is so baaaad!

[Curio]

I'm still trying to figure out why some pages would appear outside the book (the door, the kiss between Robin and Regina) and others appear in the book (Emma and Hook dancing in the past).

 

It seems like the show wants us to believe Isaac is the only author around right now, which would mean that he's the one who was making those pages appear out of thin air even though he was trapped inside the book. But the whole reason The Apprentice put him in the book was to prevent him from writing, right? So could the author still write things from inside the book, but his only punishment was that he was stuck in a claustrophobic area for a while? I don't get it.

 

And that proposes another question... what's in the book? What's not?

 

If Adam, Eddy, and the writers actually had a well-thought-out plan of the series and knew where they wanted to go and paid attention to details, there would be a PDF version of Henry's story book online that the fans could look at. But since these writers like to retcon anything at a moment's notice or bring in a random villain for funzies, then we'll never actually know what's in the story book and what isn't.