S03.E10: Oh, Nathaniel, It's On!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Rebecca navigates major changes in her professional life and Heather gets a new opportunity.

Promo:

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[atomic]

You can watch one of the songs from this upcoming episode here.

Edited January 24, 2018 by atomic

[Spartan Girl]

No good ever comes out of sleeping with your boss.

Nathaniel and Rebecca were both acting like immature assholes, but Nathaniel firing Rebecca just because she dumped him could count as workplace harassment. Then again, so was Rebecca becoming his supervisor just to mess with him.

That being said, I loved the Horny Angry Tango. And I liked that they were calmly and sensibly able to air out their feelings at the end. Until they started having sex again.

LOL at waiting until 30 minutes in the have the theme song. 

Only Rebecca would inject hormones in public. Also, using Heather's vibrator? Ewwwwwwwww.

Did NOT see Dr. Phil coming. She really gets around with stalking...

[tennisgurl]

B.J. Novak, Audra Levine's husband, AND Doctor Phil are Rebecca's rich friends! I just love the call backs to minor characters and events, at the most random times. I am still waiting for "Friend of Friend From Law School" guy to show up! 

Loved the Horny Angry Tango, and the reprise of Whos the New Guy. "Whats a reprise? Darrel shut up!" 

[Roccos Brother]

I still find Nathaniel's character extremely boring and cliche, and Rebecca x Nathaniel is way too predictable. I really hope this show throws in another twist soon. They've been so good at that in the past.

[Rinaldo]

The YouTube "Mashable" channel has a video segment in which Kathryn Burns talks about choreographing all the numbers in the show, with special emphasis on "Horny Angry Tango."

[piperkat]

 I was actually kind of hoping Trent would show up and give Rebecca the money.  You know he’s just crazy enough that he has to have millions of dollars behind him. 

[possibilities]

On the one hand, it's good that they aren't pretending Rebecca will be magically different than she always has been, as though getting diagnosed is in itself a silver bullet.

On the other hand, maybe they need to do a repetitive dysfunction tango, a tap dancing in place routine, and a stagnation swing dance number, followed by a treading water waltz.

I liked a lot of this episode, I'm just really struggling with the number of intractable problems everywhere, in life and in art.

[Yeah No]

I was never convinced that Rebecca's new-found health would last.  She was bound to have some backsliding.  What I don't understand is how matter-of-factly she dumped Nathaniel without making it clear to him that her feelings hadn't changed and it wasn't permanent.  Then when she finds out he's dating someone else she (on the surface at least) doesn't flip out completely but acts like it's OK.  Huh?  Then her attempts to make him know it wasn't because of any change in her feelings for him her were weak at best.  It's exhausting trying to figure her out.  I did actually like it that the firm is not under Nathaniel's ownership anymore but don't love how that came about.  Oh well.

I thought the horny angry tango was the best song/dance this season so far.  I split my sides!  And Heather - I'm so glad they didn't forget about her.  I loved how art imitated life in making that guy think she was Indian.  And her being the unlikely wunderkind of the business world was hysterical.  She looked great in that suit!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Horny Angry Tango:

 

He's the New Guy:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved how casually Heather said she would be the surrogate for Darryl and Rebecca's baby. Poor Hector's reaction was hilarious.

I was afraid that Rebecca forgetting one of her hormone treatments would result in not being able to retrieve eggs this time around. A friend of mine donated eggs when she was in college and I'm pretty sure it takes more than a week of shots between deciding to donate and getting the eggs. Maybe things are different now, but if not I'm okay with the show fudging the timeline a little bit to keep that particular storyline moving.

I thought that Nathaniel would try to appeal to Rebecca to stop her lawsuit by reminding her what a cold and disapproving father he has. You know that daddy dearest is not going to take this development well.

Yay, Hector finally moved out! I'm fine with him having a good relationship with his mom, but I think they both needed a little bit of space/separation.

[theatremouse]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Nathaniel and Rebecca were both acting like immature assholes

Nathaniel and Rebecca are both immature assholes. They're more complicated than just that, but they are that.

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Loved how casually Heather said she would be the surrogate for Darryl and Rebecca's baby. Poor Hector's reaction was hilarious.

I was afraid that Rebecca forgetting one of her hormone treatments would result in not being able to retrieve eggs this time around. A friend of mine donated eggs when she was in college and I'm pretty sure it takes more than a week of shots between deciding to donate and getting the eggs. Maybe things are different now, but if not I'm okay with the show fudging the timeline a little bit to keep that particular storyline moving.

I thought you had to have successfully given birth before to be a surrogate, although I suppose there's still time for the characters to find that out after this and have it be a short-term gag.

I'm also assuming more than one in-show week passed between the last episode and this one. Heck, I'm not completely convinced more than one week didn't pass during the course of this episode. Heather steamrolled that training. Rebecca not only brought the suit about the shares but got a court date and a decision. They're moving things along but they're also not making it clear how much time is passing.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Rebecca apologized to Nathaniel at the end of the episode, she said that she was a jerk to him last week while on all the hormones so at the very least we know that! It’s hard to keep track of how much time passes in a lot of shows so I’ll take any specific mentions like that I can get!

[DianeDobbler]

14 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

I still find Nathaniel's character extremely boring and cliche, and Rebecca x Nathaniel is way too predictable. I really hope this show throws in another twist soon. They've been so good at that in the past.

I have mixed feelings. I think the actor is a good fit for the show, understands the comic rhythms, and works well with the rest of the cast. BUT, IMO they are pushing him too hard. Why even have Josh there at this point? I know they try to keep the actors they like working, but I feel that Nathaniel has end game vibes the show is pushing hard. Oh he's so hot, so nice underneath, so smart, but also vulnerable, he's her perfect match! Hit me over the head why don't you. The show has become this will they or won't they Cheers bullshit and I don't care enough. I like Nathaniel, but one way to ruin it is to force even someone you like. He IS the new guy and now he's the lead guy more than Josh or Greg ever were, and it's overkill. (And I never liked Greg, but still.) The show has said it's not a love story or about putting the guy and girl together at the end, but I don't believe them, not with Nathaniel. Bloom and Josh McKenna have always seemed completely infatuated when the topic of Scott Michael Thomas comes up. I suspect because Santino Fontano wasn't precisely a good fit in some ways, not just in acting, and they're like "THIS guy! He gets it! We love him! and he's hot! Look at him!" and it's OTT to me. The Nathaniel/Rebecca thing isn't achored the way Josh/Rebecca was, so we have to view it as an end game deal. Josh was clearly just a deflection from Rebecca's internal chaos - it could have been anyone. Greg was the fallback position/staging area where she'd go to lick her wounds until a new Josh opportunity came about - Greg knew this, but fell for her and hated himself for it. They were two sides of the same coin. Despite Rebecca's decision to break up, the show is not really portraying Nathaniel as a facet of her "issues" so they're selling him as her true match.

It was also too conspicuous that the actor playing Dr. Shin wasn't there for this episode.

Another thing - I thought there would be some overarching reason for why Kevin got hot and sweaty in the scene before Rebecca got hot and sweaty, because it made no sense why that happened with Kevin. Whatsoever. He's never been like that. But nope. Just a joke? Didn't land for me.

Weakest songs of the three years, IMO. The tango was overly on the nose, so the song was redundant, instead of expanding on or opening up the dynamic between Nathaniel and Rebecca.

13 hours ago, piperkat said:

 I was actually kind of hoping Trent would show up and give Rebecca the money.  You know he’s just crazy enough that he has to have millions of dollars behind him. 

That would have been much better than what actually happened. Lots of magical events moving people forward in this episode. At least Trent is established. We could rationalize that she didn't want to stir up the hornet's nest of Trent, but OTOH, that is also an unfinished threat. Trent wanted to break up the wedding to Josh. For all Trent knows, his secret info on Rebecca was the reason Josh left Rebecca at the altar. So why no follow through from Trent? Maybe most women would steer clear of their quasi-stalker, but Rebecca wouldn't if she needed his money, and she did.

I like how much Rachel Bloom showed her flabby stomach in this. I suspect she did it in solidarity with Donna Lynne Champlin, for these reasons. Donna Lynne gave an interview talking about how a director, and then a producer, on CEG told her to sit up straighter in a scene because her stomach was showing "And you'll be happier if you sit up." She took issue with that - this is her body. She also explained that she HAS a stomach, the show is supposed to be body positive, and if the old saw about "People don't want to see that" or "It's distracting" holds true, it's because we're never allowed to see it, and that's why it's distracting. Boobs we see all the time - oh, another set of boobs - yawn. So show it (the stomach). That was her point. She took her concern to one of the show runners who finally said 'sit however you want."

Bloom has been wearing spanx on the show ALL THE TIME. In "California Xmas Time" you can see the spanx covering her entire midsection every time her loose button down flies up, and you can see it in many other shots. So for her to forgo it and just lift her shirt was interesting to me, and I wonder if she ran with it because of what Donna Lynne had said. She showed her bare stomach so much in this episode.

They have to find something for Valencia to do. I feel it's almost not fair. The poop song of a few episodes ago wasn't anchored to anything real for her character or life.

Edited January 27, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[alrightokay]

I enjoyed the songs this week, especially "He's the New Guy," which was so clever, and the Heather storyline was excellent.  I thought she (and the show) handled the awkward diversity conversations with Kevin and with the Home Base bigwigs with an empathetic firmness.  I didn't like Rebecca's storyline, however, and she's starting to veer back to early S2-levels of selfishness/unlikability for me.   I've said this before, but all of her friends are so supportive of her, but she so often fails to see their needs.  Granted, she was there for Darryl and went through a lot to donate an egg for him.  But she couldn't help Heather with her career worries, and her plot to take back control of Whitefeather seemed more self-serving than genuinely beneficial to her colleagues or "the little guy."  Rebecca's all about grand gestures; sometimes they work out (like in this episode with the egg donation and winning back the shares), but most of the time, they end up creating huge messes that people have to keep forgiving her for.  I've wanted Rebecca to do something that takes her out of herself, and helping others is definitely a way for her to do that; but she's got to start small.  Making thoughtful small decisions will help her to see that she is a good person who can make wise big decisions later.  Simply listening to her friends, really being present for them, would be an important step.

[msani19]

I'm still SO disturbed that Rebecca just used Heather's vibrator like that and then to say oh you should wash it....effing GROSS!! Who DOES something like that? Oh, Rebecca. 

I'm not looking forward to the Nathaniel and Rebecca storyline coming up. I agree that they are immature and they are assholes and I have no interest in their pairing. 

I liked Heather's storyline. When she was asking Rebecca for her advice on her career and Rebecca could only talk about her own problems, I thought once again, how does Rebecca have any friends. She could be a good friend and seems to have a good heart, but she can't get out of her own way to be truly supportive and caring. 

[DianeDobbler]

Nathaniel and Rebecca's storyline coming UP? I thought the entire season has been Nathaniel and Rebecca's story, and that's not a good thing, IMO.

I wouldn't even describe Rebecca as "there for Darryl." Her donating an egg was completely impulsive, she gave it no thought at all, and was about her, not him. 

When the two leading men were Josh and Greg, I don't recall Greg getting shoved on the back burner for Josh, and vice versa. I think everything and everyone has been shoved off the table for Nathaniel/Rebecca, and the show runners are infatuated.  Yes, they give individual characters a special episode, although I've lost hope of Valencia getting one that isn't half assed, but the show is a two-hander at this point, without telling us much, IMO. Ok, yes, I get that Rebecca gets obsessive with men, but Josh was more than that. She was truly having an extended nervous breakdown, she had avoided getting help for years, she felt terrible, and that internal deconstruction was mirrored in her escalating behavior with Josh. And of course there was the tension of - would he find out everything she did and was doing? Would Greg find out? Would Greg ignore what he knew to be true about Rebecca and insist on putting on blinders because he wanted her himself? would he find out how far she'd gone? Would Rebecca have any realization about herself?

There's no tension with Nathaniel/Rebecca. Rebecca is self-aware, if she let herself focus she would know what she's doing, which is why she's avoiding her therapist. Nathaniel knows her entire story and apparently isn't much interested in her "getting well." so there's no tension that he'll find out she's obsessive. There's no stakes, IOW, so it definitely feels like a generic push pull where we want them to get together.  We know she's not supposed to, but they're so great together! (or that's the message I get from CEG, which to me means it's gone off track) Her "This isn't what your therapist would approve." isn't enough.

Long story short, Nathaniel closes down the show instead of opening it up. Josh gave material to Paula - Rebecca needed a partner in crime. To Valencia, as the obstacle and then as almost Rebecca's rebound friend. The Nathaniel story doesn't have a structure that feeds the rest of the cast, so it comes off as, come on, isn't he just so great? Let's see more of him! That's what you're waiting for! 

And yes, about the vibrator. Come on, show.

Edited January 27, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[seacliffsal]

I wish that there was some healing or growth that we could see in Rebecca.  I am just so tired of her need to control everything and then when someone acts contrary to her wishes, she goes into revenge mode.  I will continue to watch and will finish out the season, but a lot of my enjoyment of the show is gone.

Heather's plot line was the highlight for me.

[DianeDobbler]

Just now, seacliffsal said:

I wish that there was some healing or growth that we could see in Rebecca.  I am just so tired of her need to control everything and then when someone acts contrary to her wishes, she goes into revenge mode.  I will continue to watch and will finish out the season, but a lot of my enjoyment of the show is gone.

Heather's plot line was the highlight for me.

It's kind of like having it both ways. The step forward is, she has a diagnosis and is in therapy. I get that she's going to backslide, but the entire show since her diagnosis has been ALL backsliding, played for comedy, so I don't get the point of her getting a diagnosis. A little forward motion is also necessary. How long was she actually broken up w/Nathaniel? Half an episode? So it's a big hamster wheel now. I always felt the show was moving forward before. The first and second seasons were pushing towards her getting Josh, and when she got him, that was the worst thing that could ever happen - actually marrying him without acknowledging she "has issues to address". It was clear that, one way or another, the wedding would push her to the brink, and then what? (literally illustrated by taking place cliffside).  Here I don't think the show is taking her backsliding seriously.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of the awkward "What are you? Where are you from? Where are your parents from?" conversation more times than I can count (and 99% of the time with way less compassion than Heather got from her boss), I was definitely nodding my head along during that entire scene. At least her boss was trying to find out so that he could get her into the training program. In real life, the reason people usually ask is plain nosiness and they tend to be pretty fucking persistent to the point where it's really rude. A typical conversation goes like this:

Nosy stranger: Where are you from?
ElectricBoogaloo: Oh, I live here.
NS: No, where are you REALLY from?
EB: I grew up in San Diego.
NS: But where are you ORIGINALLY from?
EB: Oh, I was born in Chicago.
NS: ...so where are your parents from?
EB: Chicago.
NS: Where were they born?

I'm not ashamed of my race or ethnicity. I just get really annoyed when total strangers ask about it because what are they going to do with that information? Go home and say, "Hey, I saw this random girl on the street today and guess where she's from?" If you got asked the same nosy question by strangers at least once a week, it might start to annoy you too.

[possibilities]

People have no manners. I've had total strangers quiz me insistently me about my disability, why I use a wheelchair sometimes, etc-- and get highly offended when I say I don't want to talk about it, that I consider that to be a very personal question and not a casual conversation. I've never had anyone apologize for asking. They often just double down on their questions. If I ask them why they want to know, it's always about how they're just curious, and they never accept it when I explain that it isn't really small talk for me and I'd rather change the subject. 

I just realized why they made Kevin suddenly start taking his shirt off, though. They had Rebecca showing a tiny bit of her stomach, and everyone was all "ew, gross" about it. But guys take off their shirts all the time, including guys who aren't sculpted like we saw last week during the "guys have problems" dance, and it's considered acceptable. I think having Kevin take his entire shirt off was to highlight the reaction to Rebecca's little bit of flesh and show that comparatively it was not nearly as much of a social violationfor her to do that as what men get away with all the time-- or shouldn't be. Or, if it is, then guys need to keep themselves spanxed and covered, too.

Edited January 28, 2018 by possibilities

[theatremouse]

Now I feel like I missed the boat. I didn't think the "eewing" was about her showing her abdomen. I thought it was about her jabbing a needle into it.

[DianeDobbler]

Not only do I think Bloom showing her un-spanxed stomach a lot in this episode was a reaction to Donna Lynne Champlin's interview about HER stomach, I think Heather saying she  "gets that a lot" (about people thinking she's Indian) was straight from questions about Vera Lovell. I saw this whole thing on twitter last year arguing about whether or not she was Indian, and then Lovell herself finally stepped in.  I was a bit confused about the Kevin angle in this episode. What did the corporate training program have to do w/diversity? If Heather's trainee group were representative of Home Base's cultural competency, that would be one thing, but she was the only PoC there. Kevin's entire awkward approach appeared to be a response to some initiative from corporate about promoting PoC in the organization, so he wanted to be sure Heather ticked the boxes - or he wanted to know what boxes on the forms he should check. However, it turned out to be irrelevant to the program, and Heather's presence was an unexpected influence, versus one corporate had appeared to purposefully seek. So what was that all about from Kevin? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

People have no manners. I've had total strangers quiz me insistently me about my disability, why I use a wheelchair sometimes, etc-- and get highly offended when I say I don't want to talk about it, that I consider that to be a very personal question and not a casual conversation. I've never had anyone apologize for asking. They often just double down on their questions. If I ask them why they want to know, it's always about how they're just curious, and they never accept it when I explain that it isn't really small talk for me and I'd rather change the subject. 

Yes, “people have no manners” sums it up pretty well. When my sister broke her neck, just about every person she encountered in public would say, “What happened to you?” I got really offended on her behalf because in a completely separate situation, a friend of a friend was badly injured in a car accident. She was the only survivor. I can’t imagine how painful it must have been for this other girl to hear “What happened to you?” from strangers and constantly be reminded that her friend and fiancé died in the same accident. My sister was lucky because the accident that caused her broken neck wasn’t super traumatic, but the point is that people don’t know tha yet they’re nosy and rude enough to ask because they think they’re ENTITLED to an answer. I always think about that quote from Alice in Wonderland: “Don’t ask personal questions. It’s rude.” I wouldn’t walk up to a stranger and ask, “How much money do you make?” or “How big is your penis?”

What made Heather’s situation slightly better was that he was clearly uncomfortable asking AND he was only trying to find out to offer her an opportunity. He was trying to do something nice and he knew he was being inappropriate. 

[Iseut]

10 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

When the two leading men were Josh and Greg, I don't recall Greg getting shoved on the back burner for Josh, and vice versa. I think everything and everyone has been shoved off the table for Nathaniel/Rebecca, and the show runners are infatuated.  Yes, they give individual characters a special episode, although I've lost hope of Valencia getting one that isn't half assed, but the show is a two-hander at this point, without telling us much, IMO. Ok, yes, I get that Rebecca gets obsessive with men, but Josh was more than that. She was truly having an extended nervous breakdown, she had avoided getting help for years, she felt terrible, and that internal deconstruction was mirrored in her escalating behavior with Josh. And of course there was the tension of - would he find out everything she did and was doing? Would Greg find out? Would Greg ignore what he knew to be true about Rebecca and insist on putting on blinders because he wanted her himself? would he find out how far she'd gone? Would Rebecca have any realization about herself?

There's no tension with Nathaniel/Rebecca. Rebecca is self-aware, if she let herself focus she would know what she's doing, which is why she's avoiding her therapist. Nathaniel knows her entire story and apparently isn't much interested in her "getting well." so there's no tension that he'll find out she's obsessive. There's no stakes, IOW, so it definitely feels like a generic push pull where we want them to get together.  We know she's not supposed to, but they're so great together! (or that's the message I get from CEG, which to me means it's gone off track) Her "This isn't what your therapist would approve." isn't enough.

Long story short, Nathaniel closes down the show instead of opening it up. Josh gave material to Paula - Rebecca needed a partner in crime. To Valencia, as the obstacle and then as almost Rebecca's rebound friend. The Nathaniel story doesn't have a structure that feeds the rest of the cast, so it comes off as, come on, isn't he just so great? Let's see more of him! That's what you're waiting for! 

I still love and adore this show, but this is a GREAT analysis of why I find it hard to get excited about Rebecca and Nathaniel. There really is a "tell, don't show" quality we're supposed to pick up on for their greatness as a couple that I've never liked, even though I really enjoy both actors and their chemistry.

I did agree that Heather and Hector's stories felt rushed. I wonder if they would have drawn them out over a few more episodes of they had been guaranteed a 4th season when plotting this storyline.

I've been missing the Paula/Rebecca partnership these last few episodes. Donna Lynne Champlin needs another big number soon. I also actually missed Josh and Valencia...I know they can't highlight every character each week, but I hope they get some meatier moments on the upcoming episodes. I still feel like Rebecca and Josh need some sort of reckoning...they still share so many of the same friends that they are bound to cross paths.

Nitpicks aside, the singing and dancing on this ep were amazing, as was the writing/acting.

I plan to show the convo between Heather and Kevin at our work Equity and Diversity Committee. Each month we share a discussion started from pop culture, and this is perfect.

[possibilities]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Nathaniel is taking up too much space on the show and interfering with more interesting characters and stories. I get that they wanted to show that Rebecca's obsessiveness is about her illness and not about Josh specifically, but they've been acting like they really do think Nathanial is a worthy partner and would be a good match "if only Rebecca were healthy enough for a relationship," which they never really did with Josh or Greg, and it annoys me because it's every leading man romantic trope all rolled into one. Please, please, PLEASE knock it off, show! Subvert it and move on already.

I like that they foreshadowed a little bit that Heather would be good at managing Home Base, when she had that scene where she didn't let WhiJo and Darryl get away with blaming their server for serving them food they'd actually ordered.

I think Kevin was trying to figure out how to check the boxes on the application to the training program, but I agree it was not well-explained. On the other hand, people do behave like that for no reason, so I didn't have a lot of trouble with there being no real explanation for his behavior.

The training program may not have been specifically "for diversity" but often that kind of data is tracked to make sure that they are in fact including a diverse mix of people, and not accidentally or deliberately favoring white males in the selection process.

Edited January 28, 2018 by possibilities

[Kirsty]

I'm not usually a big fan of baby or pregnancy stories on tv shows, and this one is no exception. Rebecca broke up with Nathaniel, even though she really likes him, because she doesn't think she's ready to be in a relationship with someone. But she's ready to create a new person?! She's ready to have a son or daughter, who might look like Rebecca's mother, act like Rebecca's father, and sound like Rebecca?!

This show could be called "Rebecca, Nooooo!", so I'm accustomed to head-desking at her terrible ideas. But the stakes aren't usually so high, the consequences aren't usually so far-reaching, especially not for other people.

Earlier this season, when Rebecca was making a series of bad decisions, it was clear that the show and the viewers were all on the same page. It was clear that stalking Josh was not good or healthy, for example. But this time, it's very unclear. The way the show has told the story of Darryl, Rebecca, and now Heather having a child has not been framed as a mistake, the way Rebecca sleeping with Greg's father was, say. Even though having a child is a far graver decision than consensual sex with your ex's parent. And it's a more frustrating viewing experience when no character on the show is voicing my dismay about this development. Paula knows that Rebecca isn't ready to have a child; why hasn't she said so? Heather seems like exactly the person who would immediately list off the reasons why now is not a good time for Rebecca to procreate; why hasn't she said so instead of jumping on board the Bad Decision Express?

This storyline feels like it's being pushed through at top speed with a destination in mind. Does anyone know what that destination might be? Is it simply Darryl raising a child next season who takes after Rebecca?

Edited January 28, 2018 by Kirsty

[dubbel zout]

24 minutes ago, Kirsty said:

Paula knows that Rebecca isn't ready to have a child; why hasn't she said so?

She did say so, as did Heather and Valencia. But Rebecca is gonna Rebecca.

[Kirsty]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

She did say so, as did Heather and Valencia. But Rebecca is gonna Rebecca.

No one has said so. If I recall correctly, Paula (in the previous episode) and Heather (in this episode) expressed their concern about the process Rebecca would put herself through to donate the eggs. They rightly suggested that this wasn't a good time to inject hormones and they were concerned about how it would affect her therapy. But no one tried to confront her with the reality of a mini-Rebecca walking around. The larger question of the *result* of the egg donation process -- the child, the new person, the new generation of her family -- hasn't been raised. I'm sure Naomi will have something to say about it, but only when it's too late to do anything about it!

[dubbel zout]

Oh, I wasn’t thinking that far ahead.

[possibilities]

It won't be her child. She's an egg donor, not a parent. I agree it's a terrible idea, but I don't think it's as bad as if she was planning to be the child's mother. I think she will have trouble with boundaries, because that's what she does. It will trigger all her stalkery interfering insanity. Darryl will probably have to move away and get a restraining order at some point, unless she really does get a lot farther in her progress and really, really fast. But if she was actually planning to coparent with Darryl (or anyone else), I would be hoping someone would intervene way more than just saying it's a bad idea, and start a legal proceeding to call her custody of the child into question and monitor her every second.

[huahaha]

19 minutes ago, possibilities said:

It won't be her child. She's an egg donor, not a parent.

I think reasonable people could disagree on this. I don't personally consider egg donation any different from giving a baby up for adoption. Many kids want/expect a relationship with their bio parents at some point.

[DianeDobbler]

11 hours ago, possibilities said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Nathaniel is taking up too much space on the show and interfering with more interesting characters and stories. I get that they wanted to show that Rebecca's obsessiveness is about her illness and not about Josh specifically, but they've been acting like they really do think Nathanial is a worthy partner and would be a good match "if only Rebecca were healthy enough for a relationship," which they never really did with Josh or Greg, and it annoys me because it's every leading man romantic trope all rolled into one. Please, please, PLEASE knock it off, show! Subvert it and move on already.

 

Yes, it's really annoying. They're subverting their own "subversion" of romantic tropes by signalling all over the place that this is the guy if only Rebecca were healthy for a relationship. That he's for real - her being into him really isn't a manifestation of her illness the way Josh and Greg were. IOW, her illness is being treated as a freaking obstacle for this great couple getting together.

It really is tell, don't show. We're supposed to believe they have great chemistry, and Rebecca not being well is a way to satiate the audience with a whole bunch of sex scenes the show runners obviously think we are gagging to see.  I like Scott Michael Thomas but I don't find him as irresistibly sexy as CEG seems to think we do, and I don't watch CEG to get off on him and Rachel Bloom making out and panting.

I have all kinds of objections, beginning with "it's every leading man trope all rolled into one." This show is going to lose its trope desconstruction bragging rights if it keeps it up. Throwing in that Nathaniel has a troubled background doesn't mitigate the trope. Oh, guess what - he's human, not a cartoon. I get it. He's still a trope. On a show that's all about diversity I also have to object that the straight white hunky guy is getting such a massive push. At least Trent was "off".  And actually did have great chemistry with Rebecca. I could watch them talk over dinner for hours. :)

Predictions (not spoilers) - Rebecca decides to get an abortion, but changes her mind. If that happens, I'm done. 

P.S. - I also agree that Josh and Rebecca are due for a reckoning that CEG goes out of its way to avoid. Josh's little visit to Rebecca to "thank her" ducked all the issues. CEG likes to air things out but they obviously have no interest in these two having a conversation. I don't even know why Vincent Rodriguez III is still on CEG (OR Gabrielle Ruiz) except that the show runners like both actors personally. The best way to show that love would be to write for them, not just slot them in so they get a paycheck.

[Irlandesa]

21 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I was a bit confused about the Kevin angle in this episode. What did the corporate training program have to do w/diversity? If Heather's trainee group were representative of Home Base's cultural competency, that would be one thing, but she was the only PoC there.

He said that diverse populations were being encouraged to apply.  Heather hasn't worked very long at Home Base so it's possible it wouldn't have occurred to him to recommend her had they not mentioned diverse applicants. 

13 hours ago, Kirsty said:

The way the show has told the story of Darryl, Rebecca, and now Heather having a child has not been framed as a mistake, the way Rebecca sleeping with Greg's father was, say. Even though having a child is a far graver decision than consensual sex with your ex's parent. And it's a more frustrating viewing experience when no character on the show is voicing my dismay about this development. Paula knows that Rebecca isn't ready to have a child; why hasn't she said so? Heather seems like exactly the person who would immediately list off the reasons why now is not a good time for Rebecca to procreate; why hasn't she said so instead of jumping on board the Bad Decision Express?

I do think Heather volunteering to carry Darryl's baby was out of left field and didn't feel authentic for her character.  But I don't entirely agree that the show is framing Rebecca's decision to donate an egg as a good idea. I think the simple fact that they had one of the characters ask Rebecca if she had talked this over with her therapist and learning that she hadn't signaled to the audience that this was not a great path she's on.  The complicating factor is that, for Darryl, it might be fine.

As for whether or not they're writing Nathaniel as end game.  I do agree that there has been so much Nathan screen time.  Now that Josh is no longer Rebecca's obsession, he's barely on.  Perhaps this is my bias, but I don't know that Nathaniel is being written as some kind of soul mate end game if only because I don't feel like he recognizes when she's being unhealthy. 

[Empress1]

On 1/27/2018 at 10:12 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As someone who has been on the receiving end of the awkward "What are you? Where are you from? Where are your parents from?" conversation more times than I can count (and 99% of the time with way less compassion than Heather got from her boss), I was definitely nodding my head along during that entire scene. At least her boss was trying to find out so that he could get her into the training program. In real life, the reason people usually ask is plain nosiness and they tend to be pretty fucking persistent to the point where it's really rude. A typical conversation goes like this:

Nosy stranger: Where are you from?
ElectricBoogaloo: Oh, I live here.
NS: No, where are you REALLY from?
EB: I grew up in San Diego.
NS: But where are you ORIGINALLY from?
EB: Oh, I was born in Chicago.
NS: ...so where are your parents from?
EB: Chicago.
NS: Where were they born?

I'm not ashamed of my race or ethnicity. I just get really annoyed when total strangers ask about it because what are they going to do with that information? Go home and say, "Hey, I saw this random girl on the street today and guess where she's from?" If you got asked the same nosy question by strangers at least once a week, it might start to annoy you too.

Rachel Bloom tweeted about that scene and the vast majority of the replies to her were anti-Semitic, so yeah, people are trash. (I, too, have been on the receiving end of that conversation, and I'm just like "My mom's from Brooklyn, my dad is from Philly, I was raised in Philly." I know what people are tackily asking; I choose not to engage with it.)

Also trash is a) borrowing your roommate's sex toy and b) not washing it. Fucking disgusting. And Rebecca, inject yourself with hormones in private.

18 hours ago, Kirsty said:

No one has said so. If I recall correctly, Paula (in the previous episode) and Heather (in this episode) expressed their concern about the process Rebecca would put herself through to donate the eggs. They rightly suggested that this wasn't a good time to inject hormones and they were concerned about how it would affect her therapy. But no one tried to confront her with the reality of a mini-Rebecca walking around. The larger question of the *result* of the egg donation process -- the child, the new person, the new generation of her family -- hasn't been raised. I'm sure Naomi will have something to say about it, but only when it's too late to do anything about it!

I agree, and I don't like the way the Darryl baby storyline is being treated at all. Like, this is a whole baby. No one is asking any important questions - or ANY questions. Is Rebecca prepared to terminate her parental rights? We know Rebecca gets unhealthily obsessive about things (I liked that someone pointed out that she could just go get another job rather than trying to take down Whitefeather); I would have major, major concerns about her having access to the baby. Her therapist knows nothing about this because she knows he'd say it was a bad idea. (It is.) HUGE red flag. Is Darryl at all concerned about Rebecca's medical history and what that might mean for the baby?  I am trying to be sympathetic to Rebecca but she is REALLY getting on my nerves.

[Otherkate]

This Darryl story is such a turn off that I'm having trouble hanging on to this show that I so adored for two seasons. Honestly, this whole season has been a bummer for me, but this storyline is the absolute worst part. And, sorry, injecting yourself with hormones is not the same as breastfeeding a human being, Rebecca. 

[Kirsty]

18 hours ago, possibilities said:

Darryl will probably have to move away and get a restraining order at some point,

But assuming the show goes through with this pregnancy storyline, don't you think that Rebecca looking to co-parent is a far more likely outcome than Darryl leaving the show? I do. And given how the story has gone so far, I'm not optimistic about the chances of seeing a wise and successful intervention to prevent her from doing so.

 

14 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Predictions (not spoilers) - Rebecca decides to get an abortion, but changes her mind. If that happens, I'm done. 

Huh. Do you think it's possible that avoiding that trope could be the entire reason for this plot with Darryl wanting another baby, Rebecca donating her eggs, and Heather volunteering to be the surrogate?

What I mean is: Say the writers want Rebecca to have a kid. Realistically, Rebecca is not going to choose to start a family any time soon. And if she had an unplanned pregnancy, she would get an abortion.

The most straightforward way to write in a child for Rebecca is an unplanned pregnancy storyline where she decides against an abortion. But if the writers shared your feelings about that particular tv plot... Then this Darryl storyline is a way to avoid it that produces the same result ie. a biological child of Rebecca's. And it would explain why it feels a bit plotty and forced, instead of character-driven.

Or maybe I'm simply over-thinking this storyline because I don't like it. :)

Edited to add that I love all the analysis here of Nathaniel's role on the show.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Kirsty

[DianeDobbler]

4 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I agree, and I don't like the way the Darryl baby storyline is being treated at all. Like, this is a whole baby. No one is asking any important questions - or ANY questions. Is Rebecca prepared to terminate her parental rights? We know Rebecca gets unhealthily obsessive about things (I liked that someone pointed out that she could just go get another job rather than trying to take down Whitefeather); I would have major, major concerns about her having access to the baby. Her therapist knows nothing about this because she knows he'd say it was a bad idea. (It is.) HUGE red flag. Is Darryl at all concerned about Rebecca's medical history and what that might mean for the baby?  I am trying to be sympathetic to Rebecca but she is REALLY getting on my nerves.

I hesitate to agree, but I agree. Not so much because I think the show needs to take it more seriously, but because I just don't buy into Darryl wanting a baby this much, so I don't care. I find it annoying. I don't care how it comes out. It doesn't feel in any way organic. 

I loved the first half of this season. It's the post-diagnosis second half that's tripping over itself. All the Nathaniel stuff already brought up. And Empress1, absolutely - Rebecca's medical history is bad news for a baby, or at least a "proceed with caution." Let's have some psa about that. It does feel "too plotty", and, as well, I think they lean way too hard on already established aspects of Rebecca's personality to leap into a plot point, instead of taking any time to build it. I felt that the time she stalked Nathaniel's dad was like that. "Oh, remember how she used to do it with Josh? It's still there!" Ok, but it's all tell, don't show, as someone else said. Way way way to much tell don't show, and the "Tell" part goes like "Oh we've seen her do this before, so we don't have to put any work into it now. We can just remind you and then - GO!"

Edited January 29, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[Empress1]

2 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

I hesitate to agree, but I agree. Not so much because I think the show needs to take it more seriously, but because I just don't buy into Darryl wanting a baby this much, so I don't care. I find it annoying. I don't care how it comes out. It doesn't feel in any way organic. 

I loved the first half of this season. It's the post-diagnosis second half that's tripping over itself. All the Nathaniel stuff already brought up. And Empress1, absolutely - Rebecca's medical history is bad news for a baby, or at least a "proceed with caution. Let's have some psa about that. It does feel "too plotty", and, as well, I think they lean way too hard on already established aspects of Rebecca's personality to leap into a plot point, instead of taking any time to build it. I felt that the time she stalked Nathaniel's dad was like that. "Oh, remember how she used to do it with Josh? It's still there!" Ok, but it's all tell, don't show, as someone else said. Way way way to much tell don't show, and the "Tell" part goes like "Oh we've seen her do this before, so we don't have to put any work into it now. We can just remind you and then - GO!"

Right - they can't show Darryl Googling "is BPD genetic" or something? It's just not plausible that there would be no discussion about it. (I think Rebecca's medical history might disqualify her from being an egg donor, were she to go a more traditional route.) It's even less plausible that he and Rebecca are lawyers and have apparently had no conversations about what Rebecca's role will be in parenting this child, if any, and that's something that needs to be legally squared away before said child gets here - in fact, I think reputable fertility clinics require contracts to be in place before egg retrieval happens. All the discussion around this process has been about how it will affect Rebecca and about how much Darryl wants this, but there's been no discussion about the baby itself.

[DianeDobbler]

You know what, it wasn't until this discussion angle developed in this thread that it registered with me - Darryl's quest for a baby is supposed to be a major story arc this season! I just saw it as kind of an annoyance and ignored it when I could. I'm accustomed to Rebecca's love interests playing every episode, and the "parents" of the show (Paula and Darryl) playing every episode, while the rest of the cast might miss a show or two. So until now, I had kind of automatically put the baby story in the "Give Pete Gardner something to do" category. When of course it can't be - it pulled in Paula, it pulled in Rebecca, and now it's pulled in Heather, and I still don't care. But now I realize - it's a lynchpin of S3. It's NOT this side thing. Damn it.

It's a horrible plot point, I am not invested, and I now have to jump on board the train that thinks a little Darryl goes a long way. Yes, Pete Gardner is a sketch comic genius, which means he's huge in Bloom's world. I can see he's a pro, he's endearing, blah blah, but the character is really not up to all the air time he's gotten, particularly not the emotional stakes.

[plurie]

Why is Nathaniel still working there? Once his father's firm lost the shares, wouldn't they recall him to one of their other offices?

[DianeDobbler]

Nathaniel's father's firm just lost the ex-wife's shares. When Nathaniel first came in, he was equal partners w/Darryl. Very quickly he acquired the ex-wife's shares, which made him majority partner. Now the sale of those shares has been voided, I guess that makes Rebecca/Darryl majority. My question is what was the percentage the ex-wife had? I guess originally, after Darryl first brought in Nathaniel, Darryl could have had 48% and Nathaniel 48%, and the ex-wife as a very minority shareholder at 4% until Nathaniel bought her out and became majority owner. Now that key percentage has switched hands and "Darryl's" faction of the office owns the majority.

While I understand the whole point was to get Rebecca and Nathaniel into a shared office, and banging away, it made no sense to me. Rebecca had her own nice, large office when she worked there before, without needing to share with Nathaniel or Darryl.

And what is it the "rest of the office" chose Rebecca to do again? Why does she need to be in that role? Darryl still has his large number of shares, Nathaniel his, and Rebecca only "represents" the minority they were able to buy back. Why would the office vote her as the controlling representative instead of Darryl? That, also, made no sense. None of it did. Again, it feels like CEG thinks we'll over look it because they are banking the entire back half of this season on being gaga over Nathaniel Rebecca sexual tension and sex. I think they overinvested.

Edited January 30, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[dubbel zout]

12 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

While I understand the whole point was to get Rebecca and Nathaniel into a shared office, and banging away, it made no sense to me. Rebecca had her own nice, large office when she worked there before, without needing to share with Nathaniel or Darryl.

Rebecca chose to share Nathaniel's office so she could bother/bang him. It was absolutely deliberate on her part. Need had nothing to do with it.

[DianeDobbler]

Did they acknowledge that in the writing? Otherwise it's not good writing. MMV.

[Eeksquire]

IIRC, when Nathaniel moved in, he took Daryl's office, and Daryl took Rebecca's office, bumping her down to a cubicle.  It's never been addressed whether the other lawyers in the firm (who I think are just the other two dudes?) have offices or cubicles. I think even the temporary attorney we saw earlier in the season who replaced Rebecca sat in a cubicle rather than an office.

Regardless: I think the whole Daryl's ex-wife owning shares of the firm thing was super contrived from the beginning - in most states in the US, non-attorneys cannot have an ownership stake in a law firm.  That's a nitpick that most lawyers probably wouldn't know or think of.  Most of the time I have been able to hand wave the more unrealistic parts of this show because it's a comedy and a musical and it's otherwise been so well done that it didn't bother me, but the latter half of this season isn't really living up to what's come before, which makes the unrealistic parts more glaring and bothersome.

[msani19]

5 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I think they overinvested.

They did.

[theatremouse]

I assumed Darryl's ex-wife got her shares in the divorce. If she as a non-lawyer isn't allowed...no idea how that happened, but I sort of figured she got half because community property state? Which makes the original sale confusing AF since if Darryl originally sold Nathaniel's father "half" that'd be half of HIS half, which would make them both way minority owners. So Darryl and Nathaniel's father could be equal to each other, but never 50/50 partners. Until then got the ex-wife shares making him 75% to Darryl's 25%. But I could be totally wrong on what number the wife had since they didn't say and there's not a good reason for her to have any particular number.

[DianeDobbler]

7 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

IIRC, when Nathaniel moved in, he took Daryl's office, and Daryl took Rebecca's office, bumping her down to a cubicle.  It's never been addressed whether the other lawyers in the firm (who I think are just the other two dudes?) have offices or cubicles. I think even the temporary attorney we saw earlier in the season who replaced Rebecca sat in a cubicle rather than an office.

 

Thanks Eeksquire. Well, at least that part of the contrivance was addressed. That just leaves the annoyance of having Rebecca and not Darryl representing the ... majority? shares? But Rebecca's not majority, she just helped acquire the tiny differential that gave DARRYL the majority.

[AllyB]

I think some of the problems with the episodes since the diagnosis have been because massive breakdown and diagnosis came too soon. I loooooved the Swimfan episode but I remember when it was over thinking, what next? There are nearly two whole series to go. What can possibly fill all of those episodes. I'd assumed Rebecca hating Josh and tormenting him would be more of a slow boil across the season and would culminate in her breakdown with season 4 being where she and everyone around her realised the extent of her issues and she worked on them. But the Josh Groban song subverted that expectation because it would have been too neat a narrative. So even though I was worried by what would fill nearly 2 seasons of post breakdown Rebecca, I trusted that it was all part of the master plan. But I'm less convinced now.
 

On 29/01/2018 at 2:12 PM, Empress1 said:

HUGE red flag. Is Darryl at all concerned about Rebecca's medical history and what that might mean for the baby? 

That's something I've been wondering about since Rebecca first suggested being a donor. I had assumed we'd have a story where Darryl decides he doesn't want a baby from her egg due to the possibility of BPD having a genetic link. That he'd be afraid of discussing that aspect with her and turn her down citing her own mental health due to the hormones. Hi-jinks would ensue eventually culminating in Darryl confessing his real fears. And Rebecca would be left with questions about whether she ever wants to be a mother and if so, if she should. That would have been a storyline with potential for fun, sadness and drama in a realistic way, that shows that life doesn't tie up in a neat narrative bow. That getting better can still come with long-term implications that takes coming to terms with. 

On 27/01/2018 at 6:15 PM, alrightokay said:

I've said this before, but all of her friends are so supportive of her, but she so often fails to see their needs.  Granted, she was there for Darryl and went through a lot to donate an egg for him.  But she couldn't help Heather with her career worries, and her plot to take back control of Whitefeather seemed more self-serving than genuinely beneficial to her colleagues or "the little guy."  Rebecca's all about grand gestures; sometimes they work out (like in this episode with the egg donation and winning back the shares), but most of the time, they end up creating huge messes that people have to keep forgiving her for.  I've wanted Rebecca to do something that takes her out of herself, and helping others is definitely a way for her to do that; but she's got to start small.  Making thoughtful small decisions will help her to see that she is a good person who can make wise big decisions later.  Simply listening to her friends, really being present for them, would be an important step.

I noticed this too. I also noticed how despite how she's never really there for Heather as her friend she is the one paying Heather's share of the rent on their apartment. It's not that she's a selfish person who doesn't care about her friends. It's just that she is only willing to be generous in ways that she finds easy to be generous. I've known people like that, people who are interested in making you welcome in their lives but don't care at all about being part of yours. Rebecca will give and give and give as long as what she is giving fits in with how she thinks everything should be. And eventually that alienates people. They will appreciate who you are and love you but eventually realise that the love is only reciprocated on very selfish terms, even if it doesn't initially feel like that. Over time that will either make the other person end the friendship or have them realise that they too need to only make room for the friendship in ways that suit them, leaving the friendship a small part of their lives. 

 

[Empress1]

18 minutes ago, AllyB said:

... I noticed this too. I also noticed how despite how she's never really there for Heather as her friend she is the one paying Heather's share of the rent on their apartment. It's not that she's a selfish person who doesn't care about her friends. It's just that she is only willing to be generous in ways that she finds easy to be generous. I've known people like that, people who are interested in making you welcome in their lives but don't care at all about being part of yours. Rebecca will give and give and give as long as what she is giving fits in with how she thinks everything should be. And eventually that alienates people. They will appreciate who you are and love you but eventually realise that the love is only reciprocated on very selfish terms, even if it doesn't initially feel like that. Over time that will either make the other person end the friendship or have them realise that they too need to only make room for the friendship in ways that suit them, leaving the friendship a small part of their lives. 

Yes! Rebecca basically said this when she was trying to figure out what she should do to volunteer. Teaching adult literacy was too hard, sorting clothes at the Salvation Army was potentially too gross, etc. She's not really into doing good for its own sake - she's into making HERSELF feel good and if others benefit, cool. Same with announcing that the guy was being cheated on at his engagement party and messing up Valencia's business. That was about her, not the couple. Same with this Whitefeather shares case this episode - otherwise, as someone pointed out to her, she could have dusted off her impressive resume and gotten another job. That was all about her. Rebecca reminds me of a former boss who was effusive in his praise of me very early on, in a way that made me uncomfortable (he was very public about it, which I didn't - and don't - care for. If you want to reward me professionally, give me a raise). I told him this. He kept doing it because the praise wasn't about my good work, it was about how good I made him look. Rebecca's motivations are self-serving, even when other people benefit from her actions.