S00.E154: Twice Upon a Time

[Bruinsfan]

Quote

“Actually, the very very last thing I shot of Doctor Who was in fact Jenna’s bit,” Moffat said. “So many times have I killed that girl off, and she was right there in my last shot! It’s absolutely extraordinary. The unkillable Coleman!”

"Unflushable" is more the adjective I'd use, though it's really the character I despise and not the actress. My impression is Coleman herself is a delightful person and it was just the writing that's to blame. (I finally watched "Asylum of the Daleks" over the holidays and was flabbergasted to find myself enjoying her as Oswin, when my reaction to Clara is generally that of vampires to a crucifix.)

[benteen]

That's my thoughts as well.  I like Jenna Coleman a lot as both a person and an actress.  I'm a fan of her work on Victoria.  But I couldn't stand Clara and I blame Moffat's writing for that.  12 and Clara was a toxic relationship that brought the worst out of both characters, something that Moffat at least recognized in Hell Bent.  I think I would have liked the 12th Doctor a lot better if he had a companion like Bill a lot sooner instead of inheriting the 11th Doctor's companion.

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, darkestboy said:

Murray Gold threw out his greatest hits as well.

 

I didn't hear Amy's theme, or else, I missed it.  Maybe it was only the themes from Capaldi's era?  

[Eneya]

Hm, as usual, Moffat wrote something that has multiple plot-holes and looks cool and flashy with lots of confused and wrong bits thrown around with pointless and unneeded sexism.

-sigh-

Good riddance!

As a person who saw OldWho, I cringed. A lot. The actor who played 1 was super but the writing of the character was abysmal. I have never felt the feeling that I would like to smack 1 behind the ears but knocking the glasses to the floor was so bad manners, it irked me to no end. I am pretending I didn't hear any of the comments about cleaning the TARDIS, because it clashes with his personality too badly, I prefer to imagine that never happened.

Capaldi had a very nice send-off, I liked it and his comments about being nice and being kind. :) I was reminded of "Just this one, everybody lives!" by 9 with the "there is no evil plan"? :)

Poor Jenna Coleman... she deserved better writing than the one she got from Moffat. He wrote Amy badly and... he did the same with Clara. Too bad. (I am not even going to mention Irene Adler or Molly... or Mary, it only shows he CAN'T write female characters for shit)... I think only Bill was handled OK? I am a bit surprised by that. :)

Also, they recycled the ending of Clara and used it for Bill too. I mean... come the fuck on... it was not a bad resolution but... too similar, to soon.

The TARDIS throwing 13 out made me think something was not OK with the TARDIS, because I saw something like flames in the middle? Also, so many incarnations have started with a crash, I was not surprised in the least. :) I never got the impression of "har hard bad driver, 'cause she is a woman"??? Like, who came up with it?

I can't wait for the new season. :)

[Lantern7]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

I think the First Doctor was thrown in as a gift for Capaldi, because that was his Doctor as a child, and remains his favourite to this day.

 

4 hours ago, benteen said:

Although Capaldi watched the show from its earliest days, the Third Doctor was actually his favorite.

I agree with the former. Was Matt Smith even alive by the time Hartnell left in 1966? Or Tennant? Eccleston? Tennant coming on board was nice because he was a Whovian, with Peter Davison being his fave. That's how we got the "Time Crash" short. Also, he married Davison's daughter, Georgia Moffat.

As for the latter? I can see that. Look back at Jon Pertwee's stories. How many of them could've had his Doctor calling people "pudding brains"? The closest shoutout I can think of was Capaldi's Doctor performing Venusian Aikido on a schmuck near the end of the season. I can see an influence, and it gives credence to my "every third Doctor is cranky" theory, which would apply to Colin Baker and Christopher Eccleston. And now I wonder if Sean Pertwee would have popped up in Capaldi's run if he wasn't busy on Gotham.

[benteen]

I don't think Matt Smith even watched the show before he was hired.  I do recall though that he was really impressed with Patrick Troughton's performance in Tomb of the Cybermen, which he watched shortly thereafter and passed some of his Doctor on Troughton's Second Doctor.

[AudienceofOne]

God that was boring. And now I can look forward to a female Doctor conceived by The Chib. I think I might be done.

I've seen all the early Who episodes and, I hate to break it to Moffatt, but he is far more misogynistic than any of those writers. He really pissed me off with this. Yes the first Doctor was arrogant and paternalistic but he was just as much so to the male characters. None of the blunt sexism in this episode was in this show in the early days. Moffatt is far worse than 1960s Who in this respect, Bill notwithstanding.

7 hours ago, Eneya said:

Hm, as usual, Moffat wrote something that has multiple plot-holes and looks cool and flashy with lots of confused and wrong bits thrown around with pointless and unneeded sexism.

-sigh-

Good riddance!

As a person who saw OldWho, I cringed. A lot. The actor who played 1 was super but the writing of the character was abysmal. I have never felt the feeling that I would like to smack 1 behind the ears but knocking the glasses to the floor was so bad manners, it irked me to no end. I am pretending I didn't hear any of the comments about cleaning the TARDIS, because it clashes with his personality too badly, I prefer to imagine that never happened.

Has Moffatt even seen Original Who?

[Bruinsfan]

5 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I agree with the former. Was Matt Smith even alive by the time Hartnell left in 1966? Or Tennant? Eccleston?

Eccleston was, by a couple of years. Smith wasn't even alive when Tom Baker left!

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Has Moffatt even seen Original Who?

He is on record as disliking the First Doctor era and resenting the fact that the early companions are portrayed with such equality to the Doctor - so here, apparently, he has taken the opportunity to over-write that part of the show's history with the way he feels it should have been. At least that's how it comes across. Bah.

Moffat belongs to that generation of middle aged men who watched and loved Doctor Who as children in the 1970s, and remained fans of the show as young adults in the 1980s while simultaneously becoming deeply embarrassed by it, so that when they came through and took control of the show (as script writers in the mid-late 80s, as novelists for the EDAs, and then again as script writers for Big Finish and now New Who) they felt the urge to 'fix' various details their adolescent and young adult selves were embarrassed by in an attempt to make it 'edgy' and 'cool', rather than remembering what their child selves loved about it and focusing on that. It was also that generation who formed the backbone of what we might term the received wisdom of collective memory - which grew out of the flawed memories of 10-year-old boys, in essence, in the absence of re-runs or any other means of re-watching and re-assessing old episodes. And 10-year-old boys are not exactly noted for their character insight. That generation is the reason 'everyone knows' that the First Doctor was just a grumpy old man and his companions were useless screaming girls - that was all the 10-year-old boys saw because they weren't interested in the characters as people, they cared only about cool monsters and exciting adventures. Even now that we have DVDs of every surviving episode and are able to re-assess those old adventures and characters, that distorted collective memory refuses to let go of its false impressions, which I see regularly reinforced rather than challenged. And today, when I watch the show as made by Steven Moffat, all I can see is the 10-year-old boy he once was jumping up and down with glee over being given the power to re-make the show in his own image - a 10-year-old fanboy so overcome with that excitement that he loses the ability to apply any form of critical restraint his adult self might have learned. He has some fantastic ideas and is capable of writing some truly beautiful scenes, but taken as a whole his era is so incoherent and sloppy, its been really painful to watch at times.

And seriously, presenting the First Doctor as such a raging sexist not only undermines the character of the Doctor himself, but also gives a false impression to new viewers unfamiliar with his era that his female companions actually were completely useless and did nothing more than hang around cleaning his TARDIS while he went on adventures, which is both completely not the case and massively disrespectful to his actual companions and everything they experienced and achieved (also makes me wonder if Moffat is basing his interpretation of it on the Cushing films rather than the show itself). Surely half the point of re-visiting old characters like this is to whet the appetite of new viewers and make them want to see more, inspiring them to dip their toes into the Classic era for the first time, not to put them off ever wanting to see any of it! It makes me rage when I think of fabulous Barbara facing down Daleks or holding a knife to the throat of an Aztec priest to save Ian's life - or badass space agent Sara Kingdom giving her life to help save the universe, or adventurous Vicki rushing off to explore a strange new planet while the Doctor hung around by the TARDIS sunbathing! Heck, Steven Taylor was more of a damsel in distress than Vicki or Dodo ever were, while Moffat's Doctors send their female companions back to the TARDIS for safekeeping far more frequently than Hartnell's Doctor ever did (in fact, I can't think of a single occasion when One ever did that). Hartnell's Doctor delighted in exploration and investigation and loved it when his companions entered into the spirit of things with him, and hadn't learned yet to be fearful on their behalf, the way Twelve tends to be. Even when he was travelling with a sheltered little handmaiden from the Fall of Troy who had no frame of reference for anything she was experiencing and actually did need gentle handling, he never for a moment presumed that she was fragile or incapable, either because she was a woman or became she was primitive - Katarina didn't have a clue what was going on, but she still played a full part in proceedings during her brief little time with the Doctor. The only time he ever looked down on any of his companions as inferior was when he first met Ian and Barbara, at a time when he believed all humans were inferior - he was species-ist, not sexist, and having learned his lesson he never made that mistake again, treating all companions thereafter with love and respect, regardless of age, sex, or time of origin.

I'm actually getting more and more angry about his mis-characterisation here the more I think about it. Grr.

Well anyway, there it is. Moffat's era is over at last – and good riddance, says I. Only time will tell what the Chibnall era brings. Will it be better? Will it be worse? All we can say with  certainty is that it will be different…and I am more than ready for that!

[benteen]

13 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I've seen all the early Who episodes and, I hate to break it to Moffatt, but he is far more misogynistic than any of those writers. He really pissed me off with this. Yes the first Doctor was arrogant and paternalistic but he was just as much so to the male characters. None of the blunt sexism in this episode was in this show in the early days. Moffatt is far worse than 1960s Who in this respect, Bill notwithstanding.

Well said.  Moffat's thought on Molly Hooper from Sherlock alone show how sexist and misogynistic he really is.

In An Unearthly Child, Barbara is hysterical and screaming but that's understandable considering that was her first time traveling with the Doctor and the experience they go through.  But a year later in The Dalek Invasion of Earth, Barbara is actively and aggressively fighting against the Daleks.  They didn't exactly have characters arcs in Classic Who but when I got a chance to watch it, Barbara's progression was something that impressed me about the show.  Barbara could more than hold her own and pull her weight with the Tardis team and the show today would benefit from a companion such as her.

There are plenty of things to criticize the First Doctor (the initial three storylines of Doctor Who have plenty) about but not his treatment of women.  If Moffat wanted to criticize sexism in Who, he could have gone with comments made by the Brigadier and Harry Sullivan and I love both characters.  Especially the Brig.

 

On the subject of the Brig, it's been remarked that Jodie Whittaker as a blonde looks a lot like Jenna Redgrave.  I joked that he was probably trying to regenerate into the Brigadier and turned into his daughter instead.  This special proved he did have the Brigadier on the mind.

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

He is on record as disliking the First Doctor era and resenting the fact that the early companions are portrayed with such equality to the Doctor

And so he made the Doctor secondary to the companions as if that is better? UGH! One of the worst things about Moffett's era was how every companion had to be better than the last, more important, more special, just the most important, specialist snowflake to ever fall from the sky.

The only three I really liked were the most down to earth ones, Martha, Donna and Bill. hmmm, the three who weren't pretty, white twenty-somethings. Yep, Moffatt's not sexist at all, he just thinks that pretty young things are the most special creatures in all the universe. Yep, nothing sexist about his need to make pretty young things more important then the older, more ethnic, or gayer women *dies from sarcasm overload! Regenerates because I don't want to miss what someone else, ANYONE else can do with the Doctor*

I still cannot wrap my head around the fact that this is the guy who has written some of my favorite Who eps. It just doesn't make sense. How can the same person be one of the best Who writers and worst Who show runners? Did the power go to his head? Did someone else actually write his eps? Does he have the best editor in the universe and fired that person as soon as he took over?

Edited December 29, 2017 by Mabinogia

[LadyArcadia]

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

He is on record as disliking the First Doctor era and resenting the fact that the early companions are portrayed with such equality to the Doctor ...

I'm sorry I couldn't even read past this I was laughing so hard.  I almost have to repeat it to be sure I understand it. Moffat has the nerve to criticize the First Doctor's era because the companions were written as equals to the Doctor?  Moffat literally wrote three female companions who put themselves as equals or above the doctor in every way.  

In an effort to appreciate Peter's Doctor more than I did the first time round I'm rewatching his seasons. Last night I watched the Danny turns into a Cyberman episode. In that episode, Clara turns to the Doctor, demands he hand her his screwdriver and scolds him with "Do as you're told!"  In response, the Doctor hands her his screwdriver.

I was so angry I turned it off.  Moffat doesn't have any right to speak on the subject. STFU Moffat.

[Bruinsfan]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

One of the worst things about Moffett's era was how every companion had to be better than the last, more important, more special, just the most important, specialist snowflake to ever fall from the sky.

When I actually got around to seeing the Matt Smith episodes, Amy turned out to somehow work for me whereas reading synopses had led me to believe she would be a precious, snotty Mary Sue who treated the Doctor as a pet. I give most of the credit for making those scripts into watchable television to Karen Gillan, who must surely be some kind of miracle worker. (The remainder goes to Arthur Darvill, who made a compelling character out of what was a pining milksop in text form. I love Alex Kingston, but couldn't stand River Song until "The Angels Take Manhattan" when her run on the show was almost over.) I don't know if Gillan is just a better actress than Coleman or if Moffat achieved a new quantum level of special snowflake writing for Clara and no one could have done more than occasionally rise above the material. Thankfully Bill broke that mold at least to me—she was a return to the idea of a companion being a normal person who's awesome because of their courage and kindness rather than some unique high concept wrinkle in their backstory.

[Occasional Hope]

Loved the episode as  whole - funny and moving.  I did guess the Lethbridge-Stewart reveal fairly early on. 

 

I'm … still not quite sure about JW as the new doctor.  The mascara and bleach didm;t seem right for a newly regenerated doctor.  We shall see.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

When I actually got around to seeing the Matt Smith episodes, Amy turned out to somehow work for me whereas reading synopses had led me to believe she would be a precious, snotty Mary Sue who treated the Doctor as a pet. I give most of the credit for making those scripts into watchable television to Karen Gillan, who must surely be some kind of miracle worker.

I actually quite liked Amy despite her "girl who waited" status. Because of course she had to be something with a title, since she's a pretty, young, white girl. I think Karen has a different more down to Earth type of charm than Jenna, at least to me. Jenna comes off a bit more refined which makes her character a bit more uptight. Amy seemed fun. Amy came off as a bit more of a screw up where Clara was a know it all.

Amy also benefited from having Rory, who owns my heart forever. Rory helped ground her in a way Clara never had with whoever that guy was she kind of had a possible thing with for ten seconds before Moffatt decided she was too special for some normal human mate. One of Moffatt's worst traits is a constant need to outdo himself, so by the time he got to Clara, she had to be practically a god to be better than all the companions who came before her. Jenna Coleman could have been the greatest actress to ever live and she wouldn't have been able to rise above the albatross of that character.

[Bruinsfan]

Good point about the titles. I know it's an echo of J. K. Rowling, but all those "The Girl Who..." and "The Impossible..." monikers really started to rankle after a while, and I find myself skeptical that Moffat learned from his mistakes rather than it just never occurring to him to assign larger significance to a character of color like Bill. She may have ironically benefited from subconscious racism and not having so much narrative weight placed on her shoulders.

[beanyk]

I only got around to finishing the last season a few weeks ago, so it's pretty fresh in my mind (though most of the actual episodes were pretty meh). While I agree that the "comedic" sexism of the First Doctor was annoying and unsubtle (I've never actually watched that far back in the original series, so I don't know about his character or companions), I still thought the Christmas finale was good fun.

Except the speechifying. I hate the speechifying. The long, drawn-out shouts to the void, with Big Emotional Sweeping Statements that Tell You Nothing of Value. All the NuWho Doctors have done it to some extent, but Capaldi seems to have done it more than most. His memo to the Next Iteration was just painful to me. Was the TARDIS taking notes? Is #13 going to sit down to see if #12 left a message for her? Imagine her disappointment when she hears such gems as "Be kind." and "Loving is always wise."

[festivus]

3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Good point about the titles. I know it's an echo of J. K. Rowling, but all those "The Girl Who..." and "The Impossible..." monikers really started to rankle after a while, and I find myself skeptical that Moffat learned from his mistakes rather than it just never occurring to him to assign larger significance to a character of color like Bill. She may have ironically benefited from subconscious racism and not having so much narrative weight placed on her shoulders.

I've had that thought too because I really did think Bill was going to be connected to Susan in some way given Moffat's penchant for each companion having to outdo the last. I remember the the episode when she told her flatmates that he was her grandfather and I was like Aha! but nothing ever came of it. Oh, and the picture of Susan on the desk in Bill's first episode.

I've haven't seen much of the first doctor's era but after reading what y'all have to say about him in the thread I find myself angry on his behalf. That was honestly the only thing I really disliked about the Christmas special, the sexism, it just rang so false to me. I didn't even mind seeing Clara because we got that lovely smile from Twelve. I'm going to miss him. I was pretty tired when I was watching so it didn't even occur to me that the Tardis was trying to eject Thirteen.  Just seemed like the usual Who shenanigans. I'll have to watch again.

[Bruinsfan]

As everything's going to hell the monitor display briefly flashes a warning that reads "Systems Crisis Multiple Operations Failures" and then the glass of the console central column cracks before stuff starts exploding. So I'm going with the theory that the regeneration energy backlash fried something vitally important rather than the TARDIS throwing a hissyfit because she can't connect to Twitter to post on #NotMyDoctor.

[Llywela]

16 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

As everything's going to hell the monitor display briefly flashes a warning that reads "Systems Crisis Multiple Operations Failures" and then the glass of the console central column cracks before stuff starts exploding. So I'm going with the theory that the regeneration energy backlash fried something vitally important rather than the TARDIS throwing a hissyfit because she can't connect to Twitter to post on #NotMyDoctor.

That's my take on it, too - and Thirteen is hardly the first Doctor to crash the TARDIS after it's been blown up by regeneration. (Speaking of which, it infuriates me every time they have that happen, because regeneration energy should not blow up the surroundings! It never did before Ten regenerated, and there was absolutely no reason for it, either then or since, beyond sheer unbridled Melodrama) The TARDIS was very clearly badly damaged and spinning out of control, before she pressed any button - whatever she pressed would probably have been just fine if the circuits behind it hadn't been fried!

20 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I still cannot wrap my head around the fact that this is the guy who has written some of my favorite Who eps. It just doesn't make sense. How can the same person be one of the best Who writers and worst Who show runners? Did the power go to his head? Did someone else actually write his eps? Does he have the best editor in the universe and fired that person as soon as he took over?

The answer to that question is: yes! Yes, when he was writing one-off episodes in the Davies era, he did have a tight editorial team to keep him in check and his writing was much improved by operating within those constraints - which, yes, were removed once he became the showrunner himself. I've got the season one script book and in it Moffat admits himself that the scripts he turned in were much improved by having someone to rein in his wilder impulses and keep him honest. But becoming showrunner meant he was himself that editorial force - and the evidence speaks for itself that he was unable to apply such restraint to himself. He needed someone else to do it for him, but there was no one with that authority within his production team because he was the boss.

[KirkB]

Ten's regeneration was supposed to have been particularly explosive because he held back too long, it built up, and when finally released caused damage to the TARDIS it took all of 11's first episode to repair. When 11 turned into 12 it was just a flash and then it was over, since he had used so much of the regeneration energy on the Daleks. But now 12 was holding back, refusing to change and I think what probably happened was his excess regeneration energy caused damage to some of the TARDIS's vital components. 13, having just woken up and probably distracted by the fact she still was not ginger, hit the wrong button and triggered a catastrophic failure that the TARDIS needed to save the Doctor from so it did its best to get her out. Depending on how long it takes to fix the TARDIS may catch her before she lands or it may have to catch up to her later.

[benteen]

Quote

He is on record as disliking the First Doctor era and resenting the fact that the early companions are portrayed with such equality to the Doctor  

This comment by Moffat is particularly bizarre as he's said that the companion is basically the main character on Doctor Who or at least the most important.

[KirkB]

6 hours ago, benteen said:

This comment by Moffat is particularly bizarre as he's said that the companion is basically the main character on Doctor Who or at least the most important.

I remember reading his said this, and as I recall it kind of makes sense, though I didn't entirely agree. His point, I think, was that the Doctor was essentially an unknowable force of nature and we just follow along in his or her wake. The companion, a human from Earth (who presumably everyone watching also is) is the one we are supposed to understand and empathize with. The flaw with this reasoning, of course, is the way it's actually executed. It's almost always a woman (which unlike the human thing is not going to be true of the entire audience) though there are obviously exceptions like Jack, Mickie and of course Rory, and if the actor isn't very good or the character doesn't appeal to a large percentage of the audience for some reason the companion, as the viewpoint character, can drag the whole show down. This seems to be what happened for some people with Clara, for example. More to the point, and this where he and I diverge, is that I don't know about anyone else but I don't generally watch the show to see someone just like me, I am there for that unknowable force of nature who may change their face but will always be the actual center of the show.

[Terrafamilia]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Quote

He is on record as disliking the First Doctor era and resenting the fact that the early companions are portrayed with such equality to the Doctor  

This comment by Moffat is particularly bizarre as he's said that the companion is basically the main character on Doctor Who or at least the most important.

Which is quite paradoxical given that they've come to insist that the Doctor is the most important, most crucial person in the history of the universe and all of space and time would fall apart if it weren't for him tooling around and randomly fixing things.

[Lantern7]

I know this is a bit of a reach . . . in the final shot, as the Doctor is plummeting to her death, you can see land below her, even through what I'm guessing are clouds. I'm curious if anybody has made out a location where Chibnall will be kicking off

[SVNBob]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

I'm curious if anybody has made out a location where Chibnall will be kicking off

Given the series, slightly more important than the where is the when.  But even money on "England" in "the present".

 

On 12/30/2017 at 7:55 AM, KirkB said:

Ten's regeneration was supposed to have been particularly explosive because he held back too long, it built up, and when finally released caused damage to the TARDIS it took all of 11's first episode to repair. When 11 turned into 12 it was just a flash and then it was over, since he had used so much of the regeneration energy on the Daleks. But now 12 was holding back, refusing to change and I think what probably happened was his excess regeneration energy caused damage to some of the TARDIS's vital components.

While all true, I noticed a different pattern.

Both Rusty and the Moff each created two main* Doctors.  The first of each pair regenerated comparatively quietly in the presence of a companion (Nine and Rose, Eleven and Clara).  The second of each regenerated explosively, damaging the TARDIS in the process, but also otherwise alone.  While the holding back on regeneration might cause a dangerous buildup, the presence of another person that the Doctor likes might also be a factor as to how violent the regeneration is.  We'll have to see if the pattern holds with the bookends of the eventual 14th Doctor.

*War Doctor not included, but he probably also fits the pattern.  Ohila of the Sisterhood of Karn was present (but respectfully not watching) when Eight became the War Doctor.  But the War Doctor himself was alone in his TARDIS as he became Nine.  It's probable that the TARDIS was damaged then too, as the organic-y interior for Nine was different from the throwback classical look for the War Doctor.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

I know this is a bit of a reach . . . in the final shot, as the Doctor is plummeting to her death, you can see land below her, even through what I'm guessing are clouds. I'm curious if anybody has made out a location where Chibnall will be kicking off

Looked like London to me, the shape and pattern of the river and city lights - but only time will tell!

[KirkB]

Rewatching the scene, I'm not entirely sure my supposition is correct. When 12 regenerates the energy does shoot out from his hands and head, but unlike with Ten it doesn't hit anything or cause any apparent damage. The TARDIS in fact seems perfectly fine until Thirteen says her line and then presses what appears to be a random button, at which point the error message pops up on the screen and the TARDIS starts to freak out. Then as she is falling out she sees the pillar in the middle of the TARDIS exploding. So while it's certainly still possible her regeneration caused damage it wasn't immediately obvious, it looks more like the TARDIS didn't like her pushing that button or maybe it was just in a bad mood for some reason.

[libgirl2]

On 12/28/2017 at 10:02 AM, benteen said:

That's my thoughts as well.  I like Jenna Coleman a lot as both a person and an actress.  I'm a fan of her work on Victoria.  But I couldn't stand Clara and I blame Moffat's writing for that.  12 and Clara was a toxic relationship that brought the worst out of both characters, something that Moffat at least recognized in Hell Bent.  I think I would have liked the 12th Doctor a lot better if he had a companion like Bill a lot sooner instead of inheriting the 11th Doctor's companion.

Clara overstayed her welcome. I would have liked her to leave during PC's first series (or at the end of MS's) and then have someone like Bill for the rest of the time. Clara became too much of a focus of the show. I also never forgave her for all of a sudden (knowing the Doctor regenerates) being uncomfortable because he was no longer cute and cuddly. Bill was so refreshing because she enjoyed learning from him and seeing the universe. And most importantly, no romantic interest in him. 

[Mabinogia]

2 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

And most importantly, no romantic interest in him. 

That was so refreshing. I loved the more father/daughter style relationship they had. He was her teacher and she loved learning from him. Even with Capaldi I didn't get father/daughter, I got old guy and his caretaker. She felt more like his nurse, telling him what to do and when to do it, acting like he was a doddering old man she had to put up with. 

I prefer the companion to be in awe of the Doctor. I would be in awe of a 900+ or whatever he is now, year old alien from a planet I'd never heard of who travels in a time machine/space ship. And I know people hate the constant questions, but I would be asking him about EVERYTHING! I would be Bill. I related most to her and Donna as far as the companions go, which is why they are my favorites. 

I am hopeful and terrified of what the new companions will be. I just hope none of them fall for the Doctor. I've had enough of that to last a lifetime. And I really hope the Doctor doesn't fall for them. BLECH! I just want them to be mates. I think Jodie is old enough to not be  just a pretty girl all guys fall for, and she is more average pretty than Hollywood pretty so that, too, should help. I would hate to see how the show would have handled a very pretty young girl like Clara or Amy as the Doctor. If I couldn't get my beloved Olivia Coleman, I think Jodie is a good choice. 

[libgirl2]

18 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

That was so refreshing. I loved the more father/daughter style relationship they had. He was her teacher and she loved learning from him. Even with Capaldi I didn't get father/daughter, I got old guy and his caretaker. She felt more like his nurse, telling him what to do and when to do it, acting like he was a doddering old man she had to put up with. 

I prefer the companion to be in awe of the Doctor. I would be in awe of a 900+ or whatever he is now, year old alien from a planet I'd never heard of who travels in a time machine/space ship. And I know people hate the constant questions, but I would be asking him about EVERYTHING! I would be Bill. I related most to her and Donna as far as the companions go, which is why they are my favorites. 

I am hopeful and terrified of what the new companions will be. I just hope none of them fall for the Doctor. I've had enough of that to last a lifetime. And I really hope the Doctor doesn't fall for them. BLECH! I just want them to be mates. I think Jodie is old enough to not be  just a pretty girl all guys fall for, and she is more average pretty than Hollywood pretty so that, too, should help. I would hate to see how the show would have handled a very pretty young girl like Clara or Amy as the Doctor. If I couldn't get my beloved Olivia Coleman, I think Jodie is a good choice. 

I know, I would feel the same way. I mean my gosh how often does one meet a 900+ year old alien! I also loved Donna. She argued with the Doctor but they were "mates". I didn't have an issue with romance with a companion, but it got to the point that The Doctor was kissing everyone in sight! 

[Lantern7]

55 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

And most importantly, no romantic interest in him. 

Once again, I'm bummed that we only had the one special with him and River, because Capaldi looked more age-appropriate than Matt Smith. I know that they wound up spending 27 years together (or however long it was), but it still feels disappointing.

 

11 hours ago, Llywela said:

Looked like London to me, the shape and pattern of the river and city lights - but only time will tell!

I figured as much. Not that most everybody on the show having an English accent bothers me. How funny would it be if the Doctor landed right on top of a car, wrecking it completely? Then Osgood comes out, dismayed that she had put down the last payment. Later, she's bummed that the Doctor had regenerated once again just as she was incorporating bits of Twelve into her wardrobe.

[Mabinogia]

2 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Once again, I'm bummed that we only had the one special with him and River, because Capaldi looked more age-appropriate than Matt Smith.

I think I would have liked River a lot more with Capaldi than I did with Matt. 

 

4 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Later, she's bummed that the Doctor had regenerated once again just as she was incorporating bits of Twelve into her wardrobe.

I think she'd be more bummed about having to incorporate those suspendered high waters into her wardrobe. Or maybe that's just me. LOL

[benteen]

Capaldi's Doctor was a much better fit with River, I agree.  Also agree that while Jodie is attractive, she's not a young knockout like Amy or Clara.  I cringe to think how Moffat would have handled that.

[cardigirl]

I loved River with Matt's doctor, the age difference didn't bother me at all. I thought River with Capaldi's doctor was great too.  I wish Captain Jack Harkness had shown up during Moffat's tenure, not sure why he was never brought back. But Captain Jack and River would have been fun. 

I just recently rewatched The Eleventh Hour, and it remains my favorite regeneration episode. The scene at the end when the Doctor asks the Atraxi to review if Earth is a threat and who protects it still stirs me!  It will be interesting to see how Jodie's first episode goes. Here's hoping it's not a frenzied loud mess. 

[libgirl2]

I think River had chemistry with both Doctors.... heck, she could have chemistry with a chair. 

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

It will be interesting to see how Jodie's first episode goes. Here's hoping it's not a frenzied loud mess. 

Frenzied loud mess was Moffat's signature - only time will tell what Chibnall's style is going to be! Let us all keep our fingers crossed for it.

[cardigirl]

2 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Frenzied loud mess was Moffat's signature - only time will tell what Chibnall's style is going to be! Let us all keep our fingers crossed for it.

Well, ya can't get more frenzied than John Simm's Master during RTD's tenure.  I sure hope Chibnall is more into telling a great story than special effects, stunts, etc. 

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, cardigirl said:

Well, ya can't get more frenzied than John Simm's Master during RTD's tenure.  I sure hope Chibnall is more into telling a great story than special effects, stunts, etc. 

True. Davies and Moffat had in common that they tended to believe bigger was always better and had a bad habit of over-egging the pudding as a result. Since I tend to lean more toward the less is more philosophy, I'm hoping for a more understated approach from Chibnall! I just hope he doesn't follow in the footsteps of the last two, believing that style precedents established in their eras must be adhered to because fans will expect it. We don't expect it, Mr Chibnall - in fact we are longing for something fresh to get the show out of its rut!

[Mabinogia]

6 minutes ago, Llywela said:

We don't expect it, Mr Chibnall - in fact we are longing for something fresh to get the show out of its rut!

OMG how do we get this message out to him! I am on bended knee, begging for something other than the frenzied, over stylized, ADD Doctor we've gotten the past few rounds. I would like something more thoughtful and yes, understated for a while. And less preachy would be nice. While Capaldi totally commanded his big speech, I could do with a Doctor who doesn't give big speeches for a while. 

[Rhetorica]

I think this episode brought a nice conclusion to the 12th Doctor.  The first episode of his tenure has him asking Clara,  "Am I a good man or a bad man?" Then Rusty tells him a few episodes later,  "You make a good Daleck, Doctor." The episodes leading up to the finale, we hear the Doctor's speech about kindness and doing something because it is the right thing to do; and that was reiterated again in this episode. He is a good man. 

[truther]

I thought this was a fitting end to the Moffatt/Capaldi era -- plodding, pointless, and fairly forgettable.  Sure there were some wonderful individual moments, especially with Bill, but overall it was yet another episode that I watched, out of some loyalty to the larger show, and don't need to see again.  Others have already made so many good comments I won't repeat them.  I'll just say that the storyline seemed recycled -- yes, we know people think the Doctor is bad -- and the Testimony concept was again one of those nifty ideas that, when you think about it, doesn't really make any sense.  And why hadn't Twelve heard of them?  Why didn't he know about any of what had happened to One?  

And speaking of One, obviously he was mischaracterized for the purpose of clumsily bolstering Thirteen's street cred, but the side effect of such silliness is he came across as the Gallifreyan least likely to ever want to explore the universe in the first place.   

[SVNBob]

13 hours ago, truther said:

And why hadn't Twelve heard of them?  Why didn't he know about any of what had happened to One?  

It's a regular thing when a Time Lord crosses their own timeline.  The latest regeneration is the only one to fully remember the events of the crossing.  The older ones may remember things subconsciously (hence the Lethbridge-Stewart name-check in this episode) or in some other limited fashion.  See every other multi-Doctor episode going all the way back, or what happened with the Master and Missy.

[Lantern7]

1 minute ago, SVNBob said:

It's a regular thing when a Time Lord crosses their own timeline.  The latest regeneration is the only one to fully remember the events of the crossing.  The older ones may remember things subconsciously (hence the Lethbridge-Stewart name-check in this episode) or in some other limited fashion.  See every other multi-Doctor episode going all the way back, or what happened with the Master and Missy.

Right. My headcanon says that when Doctors meet, only the "oldest" one fully remembers. Also, there can be physical changes . . . like Five looking a but paunchy when he meets Ten in "Time Crash." Or Two greying at the temples in "The Two Doctors." Actually, that one is problematic to cram into the timeline . . . . he's running an errand for the Time Lords with Jamie, and Jamie was supposed to be returned to his home after "The War Games" with no memories of his adventures with the Doctor (same with Zoe). Then there's the thing with the Androgum and Six craving cat meat and . . . like I said, oldest one remembers, and I'm sticking with that. I'd like to see a new "Five Doctors" story with Thirteen taking lead among the "modern" Doctors, but since Eccleston would never go for it (a decision I can understand and respect), that might be confined to licensed comics.

Funny thought: what if Thirteen runs into UNIT first, and she gets her outfit from Osgood? Circle of life!

[libgirl2]

All this talk of crossing time lines makes me remember the time they were trying to keep the two Brigadiers apart! 

[BetterButter]

[Locutus]

I just always assumed that the tardis being damaged at the regeneration was simply an excuse to redecorate. Do they still even refer to it as "the console room"?

[KirkB]

I'm pretty sure the regeneration doing damage IS an excuse to change the set, but it's only happened the once until now. When 9 turned into 10 it was big and flashy and that was it. 10 turning into 11 trashed the TARDIS. 11 turned into 12 with a flash. And technically even 12 turning into 13 didn't do it, the damage didn't happen until a few moments after.

The only name I have heard anyone use for the "console room" recently is referring to it as the desktop.

[call me ishmael]

I just assumed that in this case it was because Moffat couldn't leave without one more big bang.   Although it is possible that it was the TARDIS itself making a meta-commentary on what Moffat has done to the show.

[starri]

I don't think anything after the regeneration was anything to do with Moffat.  I had the impression from a comment that the director made that Jodie Whittaker and Capaldi weren't on set at the same time.  I believe he said that he didn't even know who was going to be playing 13.  So I think the scenes of her speaking and then getting tossed out of the TARDIS were an insert after the main episode had wrapped.  Capaldi filmed his eyebrow cameo in "The Day of the Doctor" months after the rest of the episode was filmed.