Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

To me it's like he does love her until something better comes along and he just forgets about her or doesn't consider her at all and the show just glosses over it. But I watch Flash and seperate Barry from the writing so often I don't blame Barry but I blame the writers. It's all very odd but it's probably why I still like Barry quite a bit. I assume some invisible force (the bad writing) makes him do the crap he does because the GG portrayal of Barry is a nice guy whom I really like.

Are just talking about Flashpoint? What "better" thing has come along for Barry? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, raven said:

It seems to me that Barry shouldn't be in a relationship now.  He's got way too much going on to be serious and proposing. 

Debateable... but then no superhero ever would be able to have any relationship. I thought they would wait a little longer, but it was clear they were going to get Barry and Iris together eventually, so I'm glad there wasn't another contrived stall.

[raven]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

Debateable... but then no superhero ever would be able to have any relationship. I thought they would wait a little longer, but it was clear they were going to get Barry and Iris together eventually, so I'm glad there wasn't another contrived stall.

Well, he has been in a relationship (however briefly with Patty) so I would have preferred they remain friends for a bit longer.  To clarify, I felt that emotionally he wasn't ready, not all the superhero stuff getting in the way.

[Mellowyellow]

21 minutes ago, Trini said:

Are just talking about Flashpoint? What "better" thing has come along for Barry? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

*S1 he has this big crush on her and it was pretty cute until everyone cheered him on his crusade to find his mummy again. Then it was like Iris who?

*Flashpoint 

*Savitar - Any half of the OTP hellbent on kill the other half just doesn't do it for me

*He proposes to Iris, sings her a lovely song and then runs off into the speedforce to take Jay's place without so much as a consult or discussion with her. Or heck don't propose again if things are unstable and you're not sure what the speedforce has in store for you.

To me and I reiterate this is my view of the show he is always "OMG YAY IRIS!!! LOVE IRIS!!! TOTES LOVE IRIS!!!!!!!!4EVA" until something else comes up.

But you may think they are the bestest OTP of all OTPs which I respect and I am sure you have your reasons for it.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

You said Kreisberg "never mentions" Iris "at all ever" -- that's not true.

How much have the Arrow EPs said about Felicity so far?

1. It's a hyperbole 
2. This board has been upset about about the lack of promo material for Felicity and Diggle so my point remains...
3. They've also talked about Felicity's company, Felicity having her own storyline in 6B and not wanting her to be boxed in as LI, they've talked a bit about her and Oliver. And considering they're pretending she's dead, I'd say that's a lot.

I went all numbered tweet Steve. Lord help me.

Edited September 14, 2017 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

You said Kreisberg "never mentions" Iris "at all ever" -- that's not true.

How much have the Arrow EPs said about Felicity so far?

I'm sure @Wonderwall was just being hyperbolic but it's true that it seems like Iris is being shunted aside for just about any other talking point now when she was supposed to be once again given a story line front and center to address how they side line her so often.  I mean, they couldn't even keep Barry out of the trailer.  The Arrow EP's may have kept talking about Felicity's upcoming storylines and what they'd like to also do with her in 6B that would be separate from Oliver and the Team's storyline, but that's stuff in the future.  They are keeping her, Diggle, Thea, Rene, and Curtis's IMMEDIATE storyline under wraps and talking up other stuff.  Their outcomes are supposed to be up in the air just like Barry's.  It feels really kind of insulting that they don't think talking about Iris is good enough and even though it sounds like Barry won't be a big part of the first episode, he's now getting all the focus again.  And to clarify,  I'm sure he's not getting ALL the focus but it sure seems that way when he's supposed to be trapped forever in the Speed Force.  

I didn't expect The Flash to keep Iris in charge (though I'll be happy to be wrong) but I mistakenly thought they'd at LEAST keep talking her up until the season premiere.  But nope, she's already back to the damsel.  Sigh.   

 

Edited:  @Wonderwall  JINX!!

Edited September 14, 2017 by BkWurm1

[raven]

Remember to keep the convo civil, make your point, move on and

[Chaser]

I miss cute baby animals. 

[apinknightmare]

19 minutes ago, raven said:

To clarify, I felt that emotionally he wasn't ready, not all the superhero stuff getting in the way.

He has a beard now - he's ready. 

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I miss cute baby animals. 

hehe I think the scary zombie face is designed to punish us for being norty! 

[BkWurm1]

Less scary than angry baby!  

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, raven said:

Remember to keep the convo civil, make your point, move on and

When you don't expect to see SPN Lucifer in the Mind Your Surroundings Thread. This is giving me cognitive dissonance. Also, Lucifer is THE WORST I'm just saying. LOL

Edited September 14, 2017 by catrox14

[Trini]

26 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

*He proposes to Iris, sings her a lovely song and then runs off into the speedforce to take Jay's place without so much as a consult or discussion with her. Or heck don't propose again if things are unstable and you're not sure what the speedforce has in store for you.

To me and I reiterate this is my view of the show he is always "OMG YAY IRIS!!! LOVE IRIS!!! TOTES LOVE IRIS!!!!!!!!4EVA" until something else comes up.

The entire opening scene of that episode was Barry discussing his plan with the team, including a conversation with just him and Iris. Everyone knew the risks. I get your point, but I don't agree that just because he has to deal with a crisis that means he doesn't love Iris during those times. (Especially when several "I love you"s were exchanged in that episode.)

Besides, no superhero ever has a sit-down with his/her significant other at every catastrophe or when every major decision needs to be made, I don't see how this is the standard for Barry.

 

31 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

But you may think they are the bestest OTP of all OTPs which I respect and I am sure you have your reasons for it.

Ha! Nope.
 

31 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm sure @Wonderwall was just being hyperbolic but it's true that it seems like Iris is being shunted aside for just about any other talking point now when she was supposed to be once again given a story line front and center to address how they side line her so often.  <...> It feels really kind of insulting that they don't think talking about Iris is good enough and even though it sounds like Barry won't be a big part of the first episode, he's now getting all the focus again.  And to clarify,  I'm sure he's not getting ALL the focus but it sure seems that way when he's supposed to be trapped forever in the Speed Force.  

I didn't expect The Flash to keep Iris in charge (though I'll be happy to be wrong) but I mistakenly thought they'd at LEAST keep talking her up until the season premiere.  But nope, she's already back to the damsel.  Sigh.  

I guess I don't see how one interview means she's been "damselled". There have been several talking points for Iris starting from before Comic Con, and she's been front-and-center in the marketing this year (so much more than previous seasons!); so I'd rather not view every news bit as negative.

[BkWurm1]

28 minutes ago, Trini said:

I guess I don't see how one interview means she's been "damselled". There have been several talking points for Iris starting from before Comic Con, and she's been front-and-center in the marketing this year (so much more than previous seasons!); so I'd rather not view every news bit as negative.

I find assuming the worst keeps me from being disappointed when watching The Flash, lol.  

[statsgirl]

I haven't seen the interview yet. I"m basing my thoughts on the promo.  There's one scene of Iris looking around scared and two of what seems like  samurai warrior grabbing her and making off with her while Joe shouts "Iris!".  There are no scenes of Iris being a strong team leader and running things although there are a couple of Cisco being competent and doing engineering type things. 

That makes it look like Iris is being the 'damsel in distress'  yet again.

Edited September 14, 2017 by statsgirl

[tofutan]

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I think Kreisberg just isn't aware of female characters at all, especially ones who don't wear masks.  Even if they are supposed to be the leading lady of the show.

 

That seems like an odd thing to say since this very page has quotes from an interview where AK talk about Sam/Reign. I remember him talking extensively talking about Alex too in the past. By comparison I remember very little in regards to spoilers for James or Winn from their point of view, even though it seems likely that James love interest will be Reign. This is something that could very easily already be teased at from James point of view. Like him putting his heart out there again, but will it be with the right person. Winn could have been teased as him reacting to Kara's darker lease on life and being among the people who fight to connect her to her humanity. 

If Reign ends up being a somewhat close copy of the Davis story (with James as the Chloe), that would fit in with the speculations about Mon-El being connected to the Legion of Superheroes, who on Smallville also appeared to warn Clark of Doomsday. So I'm betting Mon-El comes back to earth, sent by the Legion with future information that he is not allowed to share. Either to warn people that a big threat it coming, but they don't know who yet, they don't know that the threat will be Sam, or they can't believe it is Sam and Supergirl & Friends have to investigate to prove it. Or to argue in favor of Reign having to be killed and Supergirl and friends refusing to accept that. 

If it is like Davis/Doomsday it would be like that Sam is essentially clueless and something has to trigger her into becoming Reign/being taken over by Reign. It would be an interesting dynamic if they figure out what's what before she is being triggered into it. So they KNOW she will turn evil, but it hasn't happened it, so at this point she is still totally innocent and it wouldn't really be moral to do something against her yet. They might use it to parallel Lena Luthor, everybody walking on eggshells because they all expect her to be evil and to what extent them treating her like a bomb waiting to explore will contribute to her descent.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

That seems like an odd thing to say since this very page has quotes from an interview where AK talk about Sam/Reign. I remember him talking extensively talking about Alex too in the past. 

I do think that the mindset behind Supergirl is different but at the same time, Alex and eventually this Sam character are ACTION! characters, masks or no masks.  So sure, they'll get brought up sometimes, but Alex did actually suffer from some of the stuff we've seen done to Iris and Caitlin on The Flash, reducing them to love interest or cheerleader.  And I really worry that Sam will end up going bad pretty much because of biology which means she will have no agency in her storyline.

[statsgirl]

I should have said that AK doesn't seem to care about female characters who don't wear costumes, although he isn't doing Caitlin any favours since she is the only meta who is in danger of being unable to cope with her meta powers.  Barry, Cisco and Wally seem to be handling their just fine.  Alex may not wear a mask but she's a fighter with a costume and she punches aliens. 

Or what @BkWurm1 said while I was looking up Reign on wikipedia to see if she ever wore a mask.

It feels like James had to get a costume and a mask to get any time at all on the show. They could have done a good story arc about Kara dealing with reporter-type dilemmas but the show doesn't care about that. Winn is mostly filler and tech support for the fighters.

I am 100% sure Mon El will return to Earth to be a hero.

[tofutan]

Quote

I do think that the mindset behind Supergirl is different but at the same time, Alex and eventually this Sam character are ACTION! characters, masks or no masks.

But that means that the original statement was still incorrect, since neither of them wear a mask. A statement like "AK doesn't talk much about (or presumably even dislikes) non-action characters" (which in this case would include male characters like James or Winn) is a very, very different statement and insinuation than "Ak doesn't talk about female characters" or "Ak doesn't talk about non-Mask female characters". 

 

Quote

 So sure, they'll get brought up sometimes, but Alex did actually suffer from some of the stuff we've seen done to Iris and Caitlin on The Flash, reducing them to love interest or cheerleader. 

The original topic was promotion. And I disagree that Alex didn't get to do any action stuff last season and I don't like that just because she got a love story that automatically means that she is "reduced". I would argue that Alex getting a love story and breaking away from Kara for a bit, to have a character who is in HER corner first and foremost, not Kara's was an important step in Alex development. I don't think Alex being all about Kara in season 1 was any more healthy than Alex in the end headlining her own story in season 2. 

It seems very weird to me to relate this back to the complaints people have about Flash, because most complaints about Flash that I see are about Barry being the center of the universe. To me that is something that is MUCH more true about Supergirl season 1 where all and every story looped back to Kara. While season 2 of Supergirl was the show where characters got to have their own stories and character development away from Kara. And for those people complaining that was because Mon-El was taking over, I'm sorry, nobody can stretch that far to believably argue that Alex/Maggie, J'onn/M'Gann, Winn/Lyra, The Guardian storyline, Lena/Lillian were all about Mon-El. 

Supergirl season 2 complaints are usually the opposite of "on Flash everything is about Barry and only Barry's point of view matters", that there were too many stories that weren't enough about Kara. 

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And I really worry that Sam will end up going bad pretty much because of biology which means she will have no agency in her storyline.

Yes, I would hate that too. I think writers like doing the story where a character struggles against their biology/their urges because they think it makes the character less morally culpable and hence more innocent. Even though I'm not the greatest fan of Reign turning evil to protect her daughter or as revenge for her daughter, to me that would still be preferable, if she walks into evilness with her eyes open, because she values her daughter that high. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by tofutan

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I find assuming the worst keeps me from being disappointed when watching The Flash, lol.  

?
I mean, I'm not going to ignore the good just to focus on might turn out bad in what looks like a promising season. Keeping expectations low is a good way to go, though!

[tofutan]

Quote

Or what @BKWURM1 said while I was looking up Reign on wikipedia to see if she ever wore a mask.

She doesn't. And even if she did it seems they have said they will not go for the comic costume. Which I think is sad, I think her comic book look is very interesting. OA talked about being relieved because that means that she won't have to run around in makeup and also Reign's costume in the comics is essentially a black bra and shoulderpads, which seemed to make OA uncomfortable. I think they could have easily tweaked the costume to give her a proper armor, warrior breastplate. But I like Reign's alien look. So I'm still hoping that if Reign's powers actually trigger there will be a physical component to it too, because I fear otherwise she'll just look like just another Kryptonian badguy, which we already had in season 1 in Astra and in season 2 we had Rhea who essentially was just like a Kryptonian, just with another name. 

So I would prefer it if she actually had a different look for the final confrontations, even though I understand that they need to have her look "normal" for all the stories about bonding with Supergirl & friends. 

Quote

I am 100% sure Mon El will return to Earth to be a hero.

He'll still need some sort of central conflict. And if Reign is the core villain and the core story of the season,I would expect him to have a opinion on that subject. I vaguely remember there being a comic con interview spoilers which hinted that even if Mon-El comes back that doesn't mean that he'll and Kara will get back together immediately and it might have something to do with the position he is in. 

If he comes from the future with information on Reign he must not tell people or if he and Kara are on different sides in regards to what to do with Reign, that would provide that conflict.

If they say here that people will have different opinions on how to handle with Reign, they need people to argue the different positions. So far Reign has mostly been linked to Lena and James (some people speculate that Sam will work for Lena, I don't know if this has been officially confirmed yet?). So the question is how they will connect Reign to the DEO characters, most notably Alex. 

I'm not sure though how Mon-El arguing the tough stance will fit with his arc as a hero, but I still think him having the tough stance makes more sense than the other way around. Maybe the show thinks that revealing that he is doing heroic stuff with the Legion off screen is enough to complete his hero arc. 

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, tofutan said:

But that means that the original statement was still incorrect, since neither of them wear a mask. A statement like "AK doesn't talk much about (or presumably even dislikes) non-action characters" (which in this case would include male characters like James or Winn) is a very, very different statement and insinuation than "Ak doesn't talk about female characters" or "Ak doesn't talk about non-Mask female characters". 

 

 

Sorry for any confusion.  Quite often around these boards people kind of use "masks" as shorthand for the action characters vs the ones that are either civilians like Cat Grant or on the Team but not usually in the field like Felicity.  

 

And i agree, a love interest or a romantic storyline does not mean the character is "reduced" but how Alex's time on Supergirl was proportioned changed and while she did still do action stuff, I'd say she did it at least fifty percent less this year than last year and her relationship with J'onn was greatly reduced.  I liked her storyline last season but I also did note that she not longer seemed to be in as much a position of authority as she had been.  And of course she and Kara didn't have as much time together which is why they are pushing that fix this year so much, lol.  

Edited September 14, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

New Legends trailer, posted by @Proteus in the Legends forum:

[LolaRuns]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Sorry for any confusion.  Quite often around these boards people kind of use "masks" as shorthand for the action characters vs the ones that are either civilians like Cat Grant or on the Team but not usually in the field like Felicity.  

 

And i agree, a love interest or a romantic storyline does not mean the character is "reduced" but how Alex's time on Supergirl was proportioned changed and while she did still do action stuff, I'd say she did it at least fifty percent less this year than last year and her relationship with J'onn was greatly reduced.  I liked her storyline last season but I also did note that she not longer seemed to be in as much a position of authority as she had been.  And of course she and Kara didn't have as much time together which is why they are pushing that fix this year so much, lol.  

I argue us getting to see Alex in more private settings and relationships greatly fleshed her out as a character. And Kara took charge more in season 2, culminating with her upstaging Superman in the finale, while in season 1 she was still insecure and had to be shown the ropes by Alex. Which is okay for an opening season, but on the long run, I want Supergirl to be able to stand on her own. Alex upstaging Supergirl on a show called Supergirl really isn't that much better than Supergirl being threated to be upstaged by Mon-El. 

Supergirl should be allowed to grow up and not be forced to alyways act like the hapless little sister just so Alex can seem more important and more competent. Just like with a child, you have to let people grow up and find new relationship modes. 

People's desires to see fluffy sister moments shouldn't be used to stunt the growth of both characters by forcing them to stay in exactly those modes. So Alex having personal problems in season 2 and Kara supporting her in those made a ton of sense for their character development. Role reversal. Kara growing up and being the caretaker while Alex doesn't know how to deal with her feelings. 

I look forward to the sisters getting a more screen intense storyline  in season 3, but I wouldn't mind at all if it was based on conflict. Like Alex and Kara disagreeing over how to deal with Reign or Alex disapproving of how Kara wants to go into things alone more. I could easily picture Alex and Kara both being at the Westallen wedding and making up there, but for that to work they would need to be in conflict before that, so a making up can feel satisfying. 

I also wouldn't mind if Alex was put more into a position of authority, I was kinda hoping that maybe J'onn would leave with M'gann for a while and Alex would take over as leader of the DEO, just like she was in charge when J'onn was passed out in the finale. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by LolaRuns

[Starfish35]

And so we have the full set, here's the Arrow trailer, already posted by @Primal Slayer in the Spoilers thread:

Is it just me, or is the Arrow trailer rather, um, lacking, compared to the other three? 

Their insistence on maintaining this whole "who survived?" thing is really hurting their promotion IMO.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

Their insistence on maintaining this whole "who survived?" thing is really hurting their promotion IMO.

They aren't even teasing that anyone survived - they're teasing that they all died given no one who's been a regular the past six years apart from Oliver is in the trailer and "everything has changed" is the theme they're going for. So unbelievably stupid. 

[Starfish35]

Yeah it's pretty dumb.  They have Oliver, Oliver's son, Slade, and BS.  And unnamed extras.  Wow.  I'm....underwhelmed.

ETA:  Yeah if they want to do the "who lives and who dies" thing, lean into it.  Play that up in your promo.  Do the whole "find out who survives when Arrow returns". Build up the suspense.  Don't just ignore it.  So dumb. :(

Edited September 14, 2017 by Starfish35

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

*S1 he has this big crush on her and it was pretty cute until everyone cheered him on his crusade to find his mummy again. Then it was like Iris who?

<snip>

To me and I reiterate this is my view of the show he is always "OMG YAY IRIS!!! LOVE IRIS!!! TOTES LOVE IRIS!!!!!!!!4EVA" until something else comes up.

But you may think they are the bestest OTP of all OTPs which I respect and I am sure you have your reasons for it.

Regarding the first--no, Barry wasn't crushing on Iris--He was and still is, very much in love with her. And he was too late to the party to let her know of his feelings. It was never, "Iris, who?" in Season one, because she was still with Eddie. Even when he tried to tell her she had feelings for him too, based on the first going back in time to prevent the tsunami and Weather Wizard, he was wrong.

Whatever else comes up, Barry has always been steadfast in his love for Iris. That has never wavered; even when he was dating Patty.

Do I think Barry and Iris are the BEST of a One True Pairing? No. No one, on any of these shows that have the comics pairing (Superman/Lois, Ollie/Black Canary, etc.) have done justice to the comic counterparts. Except for Clark and Lois in Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman.

9 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I haven't seen the interview yet. I"m basing my thoughts on the promo.  There's one scene of Iris looking around scared and two of what seems like  samurai warrior grabbing her and making off with her while Joe shouts "Iris!".  There are no scenes of Iris being a strong team leader and running things although there are a couple of Cisco being competent and doing engineering type things. 

That makes it look like Iris is being the 'damsel in distress'  yet again.

This is where Kreisberg and his "team" of writers have failed utterly. Again and again and again. Why they couldn't respect the character and kept her as the great journalist she is, I'll never understand. Yeah, yeah, otherwise she wouldn't be in the scenes at S.T.A.R. labs. This may be unpopular, but I want her to go back to those roots and fucking do something with that. And I try to remain spoiler-free, but since Kreisberg as proven himself to be the lying liar he is, I wouldn't be surprised if the "butting heads" is done in a comedic style, rather than drama, and that their couples therapy won't be played for laughs. As in, it will be funny, like that "interview" of Jamie and Claire (from Outlander) in couples therapy that is making the rounds.

[Cleanqueen]

13 hours ago, Trini said:

You said Kreisberg "never mentions" Iris "at all ever" -- that's not true.

How much have the Arrow EPs said about Felicity so far?

AK could've discussed ONE single thing about Iris in the 6 minute long preview but he didnt mention anything at all all the while knowing she is supposed to have a major role in the season premiere.

And while promo likes to ignore felicity/diggle, we know plenty about what is coming up for her in season 6.

[tv echo]

Interesting...

EXCLUSIVE: Villain Revealed For ‘TITANS’ TV Show 
Braxter Timberlake  September 11, 2017
http://thathashtagshow.com/2017/09/exclusive-titans-tv-show-villain-revealed/

Creator Salim Akil Explains Why ‘Black Lightning’ Starts With A Retired Superhero
SEPTEMBER 13TH, 2017 BY JASON MOTES
http://sciencefiction.com/2017/09/13/salim-akil-black-lightning-retired-superhero/

Edited September 14, 2017 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

32 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

AK could've discussed ONE single thing about Iris in the 6 minute long preview but he didnt mention anything at all all the while knowing she is supposed to have a major role in the season premiere.

I really hope that Iris being set up as the leader in the premiere is leading to an eventual equal partnership at STAR Labs and isn't just the impetus for her and Barry's ~comedic clashing that leads to them going to couples counseling and ultimately doesn't result in any changes with the team.

[Cleanqueen]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I really hope that Iris being set up as the leader in the premiere is leading to an eventual equal partnership at STAR Labs and isn't just the impetus for her and Barry's ~comedic clashing that leads to them going to couples counseling and ultimately doesn't result in any changes with the team.

I doubt it, I haven't heard anything for Iris beyond the premiere other than her and Barry romantic relationship. So unfortunately I can't say what they plan for her will elevate her character in any way this season.

[statsgirl]

The change that needs to be made is the way the show looks at Barry and how the female characters overall are treated and I doubt that's going to happen. 

At this point, Iris should have much more influence with Barry than Joe or Wells or Cisco do.

3 hours ago, LolaRuns said:

People's desires to see fluffy sister moments shouldn't be used to stunt the growth of both characters by forcing them to stay in exactly those modes. So Alex having personal problems in season 2 and Kara supporting her in those made a ton of sense for their character development. Role reversal. Kara growing up and being the caretaker while Alex doesn't know how to deal with her feelings.

I don't understand how having sister moments on the show meant Kara was kept in a lesser position. From what I saw, it was Mon El keeping Kara down in season 2 because almost all her storytime was about him and those writers can't help making the male characters stronger than the female ones.  For most of the season, Mon El was a millstone dragging Kara down and then suddenly he became this wonderful hero.

I think Alex also got shortchanged in the relationship with Maggie because it was so poorly written.  It's like the writers wanted a same sex relationship because they're so cool but there was never enough time spent on it to write it as the complex relationship it would have been in real life. The Valentine's Day episode was the worst for me.  Maggie had an excellent reason for not wanting to celebrate Valentine's Day (because that's when she told her parents she was gay and they kicked her out)  but that was brushed over as Kara told Maggie she needed to let Alex celebrate it because Alex always liked celebrating Valentines Day so Maggie did.  WTF? Talk about papering over a chasm. 

We complain about MG and Arrow a lot on this board but I don't think Supergirl has one quarter the depth of looking at the relationships Arrow got into even in its first two season.

39 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Whatever else comes up, Barry has always been steadfast in his love for Iris. That has never wavered; even when he was dating Patty.[snip]

And I try to remain spoiler-free, but since Kreisberg as proven himself to be the lying liar he is, I wouldn't be surprised if the "butting heads" is done in a comedic style, rather than drama, and that their couples therapy won't be played for laughs. As in, it will be funny, like that "interview" of Jamie and Claire (from Outlander) in couples therapy that is making the rounds.

I completely agree that Barry believes that he loves Iris.  And he probably does to the best of his ability.  It just comes off as a very immature kind of love since Barry himself remains an immature person.  To paraphrase Jessica Rabbit "I'm not self-centred, I'm just written that way."    (And the loss of his parents isn't really enough justifications since he had Joe as soon as he lost his father.)

Kreisburg has already said that the butting heads and couples therapy will be done as comedy but (and I acknowledge it may play different when I see it) that seems even worse to me because Iris took over when Barry made his decision to leave and it sounds like she's doing a good job so it makes Barry look worse that he can't step back and let the love of his life run things.

[apinknightmare]

29 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

I doubt it, I haven't heard anything for Iris beyond the premiere other than her and Barry romantic relationship. So unfortunately I can't say what they plan for her will elevate her character in any way this season.

I hope it does, even though I don't watch anymore. I like Iris (and Candice) and want great things for her that don't involve her awful significant other. ::prays::

Edited September 14, 2017 by apinknightmare

[LolaRuns]

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I don't understand how having sister moments on the show meant Kara was kept in a lesser position. 

In season 1 they repeatedly set up situations where Alex could sweep in to save Kara. In season 2 a lot of the sister moments showed Kara as the caretaker most notably Kara saving Alex in the middle of the season when she was about to be blown to space in an alien ship, Kara comforting Alex when Alex came out to her and was upset that Maggie rejected her and of course when Alex was abducted by a stalker. 

This is a reverse of the season 1 dynamic which repeatedly portrayed Alex as badass BY SAVING KARA. For this to work Kara has to be weak. Alex being badass was directly linked to Kara being damselled or out of control or to weak to achieve something. In season 2, there were still sister moments, but they didn't have this element of making Alex look cool at the expense of Kara. Instead Kara got to take care of Alex who was allowed to show vulnerability. 

That's why I hope that they move Alex into a more organizing type of position, because so far portraying Alex strenght is heavily dependant on keeping Kara weak. But if they moved her more to a different type of role then they could both be strong, but in different areas (just like Cat was strong and cool and powerful without having to punch people). Because otherwise, unless they give Alex superpowers too, they will artificially keep Kara weaker because they have to keep her up against the type of badguys that Alex can also be effective against. 

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 those writers can't help making the male characters stronger than the female ones

And yet the show went out of their way to make sure to confirm that Mon-El is still weaker than Kara and I don't think that he had any hand in defeating any of the notable villains. That glory was always very firmly reserved for Kara while Mon-El was mostly around for moral support. The villain might have been his mother, but it was KARA who took her out, not him. He didn't take out Metallo, he didn't take out Cyborg Superman, he didn't take out Myxy, he didn't take out Livewire, he didn't take out Roulette. From an action POV he actually got to do very little other than being thrown around. So far it seems like the main contribution to his super strength is that he can go with Kara into these dangerous situations and get kicked around without it always being considered an immediate danger to his life, compared to how it would be if it was Iris or Lana or some other human love interest being there with her. 

Go through the show, he hardly ever successfully fights anybody other than a goon. 

They even severely depowered him compared to what his namesake character is like in the comics, where he has flight and heatvision just like Superman. 

Maybe that will change in the future, but as far as season 2 is concerned, Mon-El is was still very carefully always kept below Kara when it came to competence. Heck, Winn took out more high profile badguys in season 2. 

Personally, I think the moment Mon-El actually becomes competent at anything will be the point where he will have to leave the show. Because the show dynamic wouldn't work otherwise. 

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I doubt it, I haven't heard anything for Iris beyond the premiere other than her and Barry romantic relationship. So unfortunately I can't say what they plan for her will elevate her character in any way this season.

I have the crazy hope that Iris will at least have to be allowed to be competent for a bit because otherwise Barry woudn't have a reason to be insecure enough for couple's therapy. But yeah, I also worry it won't last. In the trailer, Iris face when up against the Samurai, for a short second I thought that maybe Iris is tricking the badguy. 

I also hope the couple therapy will at least end up being cute in some way, like they start out bickering but end up talking how much both of them are looking forward to the wedding. Other than that my hopes for Iris couldn't be lower. 

[Miss Dee]

1 hour ago, Cleanqueen said:

I doubt it, I haven't heard anything for Iris beyond the premiere other than her and Barry romantic relationship. So unfortunately I can't say what they plan for her will elevate her character in any way this season.

In all fairness, this is true for a lot of characters. I haven't heard a single thing about Mick after episode three. At this point I'm assuming Ray kills him in a fit of rage during Episode 4.

[Cleanqueen]

51 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I hope it does, even though I don't watch anymore. I like Iris (and Candice) and want great things for her that don't involve her awful significant other. ::prays::

I hope so too because as an Iris fan it is becoming beyond frustrating that the supposed female lead hasn't had any substantial story arcs other than her romance with relationship and almost dying at the hands of an evil version of her boyfriend.

It seems like the show only knew how to write Iris when she wasnt with Barry, her job actually got focus in season 1/2 and she had a budding friendship with Linda and now she only exists as Barry's lightning rod.

[Velocity23]

The Flash: Barry returns scrambled, but reborn

http://ew.com/tv/2017/09/14/flash-season-4-spoilers/

Quote

“Initially, Barry is pretty scrambled when he comes out of the Speed Force,” Gustin tells EW. “He’s not himself, he’s talking nonsense. The way I see it, when he was in the Speed Force, he experienced his whole life laid out in front of him from start to finish. So in some sense, he comes out very wise, kind of knowing everything, but he has no understanding of what he’s seen, so he comes out very jumbled and talking what he thinks makes complete sense, but just nonsense to the rest of the crew.”

Fear not, Barry won’t be like that all season, as executive producer Andrew Kreisberg explains that his time in the Speed Force has actually had a really positive effect on him as well. “The most important thing about Barry this year is that the experience of being in the Speed Force was a bit of a baptism for him. The premiere episode is called ‘The Flash Reborn’ and Barry, in a way, has been born again,” Kreisberg says, noting that the title doesn’t mean the show is following the The Flash: Rebirth story line from the comics. “His experience in there has really washed away a lot of his sins and cleansed him of a lot of his doubts, his fears, and his guilts, and it really is leaving him free and clear to just have an open road and a fresh start. He really loves being The Flash again.”

Gustin concurs: “A huge weight has been lifted and he’s forgiven himself again of all the mistakes he made the last couple years and people that he’s hurt. He’s ready to move forward with the team and move forward with Iris [Candice Patton] and be happy Barry again and save Central City.”

Barry’s new outlook is part and parcel of the show leaning back into lighter, more comedic tones after traveling down a dark path the last two seasons. “I’m having fun with it, just getting to laugh things off a little bit more again as the character,” Gustin says. “When we see a bad guy that rolls around, a villain of the week, it’s not such a daunting task. We can have a little bit of fun taking down these guys now.”

Barry’s ability to forgive himself is also the next step in the superhero’s evolution. “It’s not in the titles, but every one of these shows — whether it’s Supergirl, Arrow, or Flash — it really is like Arrow Begins, Flash Begins, and Supergirl Begins,” Kreisberg says. “Now it’s season 4 and he’s really become The Flash in the comic books, the one who really is in full mastery of his skills and has the emotional maturity that he has in the comics.”

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

“A huge weight has been lifted and he’s forgiven himself again of all the mistakes he made the last couple years and people that he’s hurt.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I think I'm partly right in the Speed Force pretty much washing away Barry's sins.

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Gustin concurs: “A huge weight has been lifted and he’s forgiven himself again of all the mistakes he made the last couple years and people that he’s hurt. He’s ready to move forward with the team and move forward with Iris [Candice Patton] and be happy Barry again and save Central City.”

Oh, I'm so glad he's ready to be happy again. You really do have to give yourself a break after not feeling much remorse for literally erasing people from existence. Ah, well. Gotta move on with your life I guess!

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Why they couldn't respect the character and kept her as the great journalist she is, I'll never understand. Yeah, yeah, otherwise she wouldn't be in the scenes at S.T.A.R. labs. This may be unpopular, but I want her to go back to those roots and fucking do something with that.

I'm going to be opposite (sorry!), but likely also unpopular (ha!), and say I wish they'd done away with the journalism angle altogether.  

It worked on Lois & Clark (and I loved that show) because the Daily Planet was the core of the show.  Clark and Lois were partners, working together.  On this show, Iris needed a job where she and Barry could be partners, working together to save the day.  The journalism angle, while true to the comics, just isn't useful for that.  They should have somehow positioned her in a job where she could have been part of Team Flash from early on, not being outside the circle so often.  It's great that they're giving her more to do with the team, but giving her a spot on the team early on would have fixed a lot of problems, I think.  

Just my two fractions of cents. :(

[lemotomato]

42 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Gustin concurs: “A huge weight has been lifted and he’s forgiven himself again of all the mistakes he made the last couple years and people that he’s hurt. He’s ready to move forward with the team and move forward with Iris [Candice Patton] and be happy Barry again and save Central City.”

Wow, it's like they lifted this section from Arrow season 4 and just searched and replaced Oliver/Felicity/Star City. When the heck did Barry feel guilty for anything and wasn't immediately absolved and reassured by everyone around him?

[SmallScreenDiva]

The journalism angle could have worked, IMO, if they actually had Iris bring "cases," information relevant to fighting the bad guy to the team. I didn't see that during the two seasons I watched the show but it sounds like that hasn't changed.

Arrow had something similar in the first season, when it had Laurel bring information to Oliver about cases. Except in her case the situation made her inept at her job. I think it was brought up on this board a few years back how for Oliver to be able to do his job, Laurel had to be awful at her job. Which made the entire partnership a failure. Contrast this with the partnership between Oliver and Felicity where Oliver got information from Felicity to do his job — both of them had to be good at what they do. 

Barry and Iris had the foundation to have the kind of partnership Felicity and Oliver have, where their jobs/skills would work together, but for some reason Flash didn't make much use of Iris' skills other than to write about Barry himself. 

[Velocity23]

Quote

“When we meet Reign, she’s just a woman,” executive producer Andrew Kreisberg tells EW. “Her name is Samantha and she’s a single mom, and she has no idea that she is Reign; she has no idea that she was the baby in the pod at the end of last season, so the journey that she takes this season is watching her realize her heritage and see how it manifests.”

Samantha’s transformation into Reign will really speak to the show’s theme this year. “The thing that everybody is struggling with on Supergirl this season is What does it mean to be human?” Kreisberg says, stressing that Supergirl needed to shake things up with its choice of big bad. “I’m not only competing with myself on Supergirl, but I’m competing with myself on all the other shows that I’ve done, and by that I mean I don’t want to repeat what I’ve done on Supergirl, nor do I want to repeat what I’ve done on Arrow and Flash.”

“Usually on these shows,” Kreisberg continues, “you either meet the big bad at the end of episode 1 or you meet them at episode 7 or 9, and you realize that they’ve been pulling the strings the whole time, and were out there working with their multi-year plan to take down the heroes or destroy the city. When we were figuring out Reign, one thing we’ve never really seen on any of these shows is we’ve never seen the big bad become the big bad.”

http://ew.com/tv/2017/09/14/supergirl-reign-season-3-spoilers/

[Angel12d]

Quote

“His experience in there has really washed away a lot of his sins and cleansed him of a lot of his doubts, his fears, and his guilts, and it really is leaving him free and clear to just have an open road and a fresh start.

So he just gets away with everything? Hahahahaha.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Is Reign a comics character and is her name really Samantha? Because that's a lot of Samantha, Samantha, Samanda going on in the Arrowverse.

[Starfish35]

10 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Is Reign a comics character and is her name really Samantha? Because that's a lot of Samantha, Samantha, Samanda going on in the Arrowverse.

Reign is a comics character, but from what I can find, I think the Samantha identity is invented by the Supergirl writers.  It doesn't look like Reign had another identity.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Regarding the first--no, Barry wasn't crushing on Iris--He was and still is, very much in love with her. And he was too late to the party to let her know of his feelings. It was never, "Iris, who?" in Season one, because she was still with Eddie. Even when he tried to tell her she had feelings for him too, based on the first going back in time to prevent the tsunami and Weather Wizard, he was wrong.

Whatever else comes up, Barry has always been steadfast in his love for Iris. That has never wavered; even when he was dating Patty.

 

 

 

I have to say, I personally found the transition from Barry being very open about being in love with Iris at the end of season 1 to him not even acting like her friend for the first half of season 2 VERY jarring and yeah, I DID think he was acting like he'd forgotten she existed.  They didn't frame it as Barry giving her space or trying to give her time to grieve, they just didn't interact and then here he was, moving on with his life when last year when she had been with Eddie, Barry had done just the opposite and so it seemed extra weird that now when she was alone, Barry was off doing his own thing.  Eventually, they wrote back to them but it took too long to address and made Barry seem like he honestly had put his feelings for Iris in the past for a while.  Very frustrating.  

Plus, at the end of season two after Iris had made it very clear that she was ready for them to start a romantic relationship, Barry running off to reset the time line seemed extremely cavalier, like risking what he had with Iris wasn't that big of a deal to him.  And then he spent what, 6 months basking in his new happy life with his parents BEFORE he even started trying to bring Iris back into his life again.  At best one could say he was so confident they were meant to be together that everything would work out but given how close Iris came to marrying Eddie, I don't understand WHY he would have thought he could play with the universe and still get the girl.  

It came off to me that he traded what he had with Iris for getting his parents back.  And that's a valid choice, but then the show needs to stop trying to tell me that Barry loves Iris more than anything else in his world.  I mean, sure, I completely buy into it, except for all the times I don't, lol.  

Edited September 14, 2017 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Oh, I'm so glad he's ready to be happy again. You really do have to give yourself a break after not feeling much remorse for literally erasing people from existence. Ah, well. Gotta move on with your life I guess!

Never change, @apinknightmare

[LeighAn]

OMFG they are just going to erase all the supremely shitty things Barry did/does with speed force. This is why people hate you Barry and actually think your the villain of the show- even entertainment reporters. 

 

Like Oliver spent five years making up for or dealing with his sins and guilt and actually evolving and growing as a person but Barry spends five minutes in the speed force in decides "yeah nah I'm not doing that- I'm super awesome already". This is why you need better standards Iris.