Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[wonderwall]

10 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I hate to say it, but I might get this version of Hooded Green Arrow just because the eyes are black. I don't like the current one with the white eyes. White eyes are creepy.

Having watched Supernatural it just makes him look like a demon haha

A cute demon nonetheless

[kismet]

2 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Shit - I'm really more pissed about this than I should be.

I think that is a reasonable response. I was stuck in traffic and got thinking about BA's behavior and how the Flash treats it as a noble choice. It literally crawled so far under my skin I started talking to the stereo. Of course, i forgot most of what I said, but here are some of my thoughts.

BA's behavior & choices since Fs1b are emotionally unhealthy. There is no way about it. I have two health degrees and years of therapy under me belt to identify it as emotionally unhealthy. Everyone has tragic or life-altering events in their lives (some worse than others), we all can pinpoint an event or a choice that set forth unhappy events. It's part of the human experience. But no matter how hard we try we cannot go back in time and change these events. And even if we could change these events it does not mean things would change, or changing it would make everything for the better. What we can do is learn to deal with the fallout and consequences of our life events and choices. That is the emotionally healthy thing to do to. To process what happened and try to make the best out of the situation. Perhaps learn better coping strategies or thought processes. There is no reset button on life, to constantly try for one or preach it as a good thing is just naive or emotionally reckless.

I can understand the temptation of going back in time and changing things. I can understand the writers desire to have the fairytale basically come true. That going back in time can fix everything. Which is why when BA did it last season, I gave him a pass. He did what so many of us, wish we could do. What I couldn't understand was why basically no one on this season of Flash ever bothered to help him see some of the errors of his choices. Especially after people died and continue to dies as a result. They just made him a Hero and gave him week after week of speeches that approved his choices and negated any of the blame. It was enabling an unhealthy thought process and behavior.

Losing a loved one is hard. It is emotionally scarring. Losing them tragically in front of you, I can only increases the trauma. But that does not mean that you jeopardize the entire universe to get them back. It's ok to think or desire it, it's a bad thing to actually try to do it twice. Clearly, I underestimated BAs emotional health in Fs1. Say what you will about OQ or Rips behaviors & choices, but they at least seem to learn from their mistakes. They are learning to deal with their tragedies in healthier ways. And the people around them both support them and keep them in check. Very few on the Arrow/LoT teams enable their emotionally unhealthy behavior and maybe that is the difference. On Flash, everyone is ok with BA & his choices. Heck they almost brought snacks & pom-poms to watch him this time around. Why would BA ever think that what he did in s1 finale was ever wrong? There is no check & balance system to tell him that he made a mistake. He did it for good reasons, but he endangered millions of lives to save one. No wonder this season endangering billions of lives just seemed like the next step.

I truly hope that the Flash deals with the consequences of BA's actions. And helps him get back on the track of the emotionally healthy (or at least trying to be). He wasn't perfect when we met him, but he was trying to do right. He was a little obsessed with solving his Mom's case and helping prove his father's innocence, but that was logical. And in someways a noble path that many people follow. How many people who suffer tragedies go into law enforcement or healthcare to help other families avoid or resolve their tragedies. The sad part, is I don't think the writers will get BA back on the journey towards emotionally healthy. I wonder if they even recognize that what he did was problematic. I think they are living out their childhood fantasies of the Flash and their adulthood escapism. Unless something dramatically happens, I think we will see BA crowned a Hero again next year.

Part of the reason, I think I became so disconnected from the Flash this season was because they just excuse BA's behavior all the time. It wasn't depressing and dark because of the subject matter. For me it was depressing and dark because I never saw BA in any healthy or productive way grow from what happened to him or the choices he made. He just either buried them or got a pat on the back. Everything was brushed under the rug. Arrow may never be considered a light show, but at least everyone deals with their shit. For good or for bad, consequences are addressed. The characters make mistakes, they may have some regressions - but never are they just told everything is OK because you never meant to hurt anybody. A lot of people in the Flarrowverse & IRL do things that turn out badly with good intentions, however, most adults learn that they then have to find a way to make amends for their actions when things go badly.

Run Barry Run that can take on so many meanings. I guess at the end of the day, I am not surprised BA made the same selfish and idiotic choice again this season only this time with possibly bigger consequences. Looking over the season, it was only a matter of time.

[Guest]

I was on the side of Flash finale being somewhat isolated from Arrow.  But Arrow's finale is one of the endings more likely to set up a new time line for at least a while.  It wasn't an Easter Egg that continuity changed but they tied it up in a little bow and didn't set up much for next season.  That would be the best strategy if they wanted to minimize how pissed the audience would be that something set up in the finale did pay of in the premiere.

I'm thinking that all four shows may start with a crossover reboots and then rapidly restore the timelines by the second or third episode.

[benteen]

4 hours ago, kismet said:

I think that is a reasonable response. I was stuck in traffic and got thinking about BA's behavior and how the Flash treats it as a noble choice. It literally crawled so far under my skin I started talking to the stereo. Of course, i forgot most of what I said, but here are some of my thoughts.

BA's behavior & choices since Fs1b are emotionally unhealthy. There is no way about it. I have two health degrees and years of therapy under me belt to identify it as emotionally unhealthy. Everyone has tragic or life-altering events in their lives (some worse than others), we all can pinpoint an event or a choice that set forth unhappy events. It's part of the human experience. But no matter how hard we try we cannot go back in time and change these events. And even if we could change these events it does not mean things would change, or changing it would make everything for the better. What we can do is learn to deal with the fallout and consequences of our life events and choices. That is the emotionally healthy thing to do to. To process what happened and try to make the best out of the situation. Perhaps learn better coping strategies or thought processes. There is no reset button on life, to constantly try for one or preach it as a good thing is just naive or emotionally reckless.

I can understand the temptation of going back in time and changing things. I can understand the writers desire to have the fairytale basically come true. That going back in time can fix everything. Which is why when BA did it last season, I gave him a pass. He did what so many of us, wish we could do. What I couldn't understand was why basically no one on this season of Flash ever bothered to help him see some of the errors of his choices. Especially after people died and continue to dies as a result. They just made him a Hero and gave him week after week of speeches that approved his choices and negated any of the blame. It was enabling an unhealthy thought process and behavior.

Losing a loved one is hard. It is emotionally scarring. Losing them tragically in front of you, I can only increases the trauma. But that does not mean that you jeopardize the entire universe to get them back. It's ok to think or desire it, it's a bad thing to actually try to do it twice. Clearly, I underestimated BAs emotional health in Fs1. Say what you will about OQ or Rips behaviors & choices, but they at least seem to learn from their mistakes. They are learning to deal with their tragedies in healthier ways. And the people around them both support them and keep them in check. Very few on the Arrow/LoT teams enable their emotionally unhealthy behavior and maybe that is the difference. On Flash, everyone is ok with BA & his choices. Heck they almost brought snacks & pom-poms to watch him this time around. Why would BA ever think that what he did in s1 finale was ever wrong? There is no check & balance system to tell him that he made a mistake. He did it for good reasons, but he endangered millions of lives to save one. No wonder this season endangering billions of lives just seemed like the next step.

I truly hope that the Flash deals with the consequences of BA's actions. And helps him get back on the track of the emotionally healthy (or at least trying to be). He wasn't perfect when we met him, but he was trying to do right. He was a little obsessed with solving his Mom's case and helping prove his father's innocence, but that was logical. And in someways a noble path that many people follow. How many people who suffer tragedies go into law enforcement or healthcare to help other families avoid or resolve their tragedies. The sad part, is I don't think the writers will get BA back on the journey towards emotionally healthy. I wonder if they even recognize that what he did was problematic. I think they are living out their childhood fantasies of the Flash and their adulthood escapism. Unless something dramatically happens, I think we will see BA crowned a Hero again next year.

Part of the reason, I think I became so disconnected from the Flash this season was because they just excuse BA's behavior all the time. It wasn't depressing and dark because of the subject matter. For me it was depressing and dark because I never saw BA in any healthy or productive way grow from what happened to him or the choices he made. He just either buried them or got a pat on the back. Everything was brushed under the rug. Arrow may never be considered a light show, but at least everyone deals with their shit. For good or for bad, consequences are addressed. The characters make mistakes, they may have some regressions - but never are they just told everything is OK because you never meant to hurt anybody. A lot of people in the Flarrowverse & IRL do things that turn out badly with good intentions, however, most adults learn that they then have to find a way to make amends for their actions when things go badly.

Run Barry Run that can take on so many meanings. I guess at the end of the day, I am not surprised BA made the same selfish and idiotic choice again this season only this time with possibly bigger consequences. Looking over the season, it was only a matter of time.

Great post.  Barry is definitely an emotionally unhealthy individual.  The damage that Barry causes with his decisions is a serious problem.

I would have had no problem with the time travel thing from last season if it wasn't for the fact that Barry was told and knew that there was a chance that going back in time could create a possible planet-destroying event and he STILL went ahead with it.  He showed an absolutely horrifying disregard for human life with that decision.  Barry is all "ME ME ME" when it comes to his pain and cares nothing about the collateral damage he causes with his actions.  Part of the reason is his friends act like enablers, excusing his behavior and throwing their support behind one bad decision after another.

This was the first episode that his enablers actually stood up to him and told him no.  It didn't last long but at least it's a start.

Edited May 26, 2016 by benteen

[nksarmi]

And it was because Barry was literally willing to risk not only destroying one world - but ALL worlds! Sorry - still bothered by this. I wonder if it will fade by October? Probably not.

[kismet]

5 minutes ago, benteen said:

This was the first episode that his enablers actually stood up to him and told him no.  It didn't last long but at least it's a start.

There was that brief shining moment! And then they went for the Grease Finale Race off, only without the singing & dancing - but the CHEER SQUAD was present. I really want him to spend tons of time in the paradox, come back and have his enablers refuse to talk to him.

[Password]

I think part of the reason why I've felt so disconnected with The Flash this season is because they didn't deal with the fallout of the season 1 finale very well. In fact, Barry was hailed a hero with a special Flash day and a hot beverage named after him.

WHEN HE WAS THE CAUSE OF THE GIANT WORM HOLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Genki]

Barry's behaviour in the finale reminded me of the HIVE cultist from last week, both willing to destroy the world(s) because things weren't working out the way they wanted. 

[benteen]

8 hours ago, nksarmi said:

And it was because Barry was literally willing to risk not only destroying one world - but ALL worlds! Sorry - still bothered by this. I wonder if it will fade by October? Probably not.

THIS.  Barry's disregard for human life when it comes to what he wants is monstrous and it makes him as evil as any villain out there.

How is Barry considered to be a hero?

Edited May 26, 2016 by benteen

[dtissagirl]

7 minutes ago, benteen said:

How is Barry considered to be a hero?

A bunch of middle-aged men tell him he is a hero all the time, so he is? That's all I got.

[Sakura12]

Barry suddenly got powers and declared himself a hero. 

Malcolm wanted to wipe out part of a city, Ra's wanted to infect the city with some disease, Darhk wanted to nuke a city. Barry almost destroyed the entire world by opening a wormhole, then might have changed the entire universe and everyone in it, just to save his mommy.  

Savage who was supposed to be the biggest bad of them all (the actor was miscast but that is what he was supposed to be) wanted to go back into the past to change the world to be the way he wanted it to be. If they are doing Flashpoint then that is exactly what Barry did making Barry the biggest bad of them all. 

[hogwash]

He's a hero because comics. The last time he botched this mom thing the 52 (heh) breaches opened. Daredevil had the best line about this crap. 'You don't get to create danger and then protect us from that danger.' Then he goes and does it again. At least he went behind his cheerleaders backs this time.

All the Flarrowverse shows basically ignored each other this season and a good chunk of the mini crossovers didn't make sense within the other show's timeline the season before that so I have no idea how this Flashpoint is gonna work. Arrow didn't setup anything big so it's doable? I think.

[benteen]

The public didn't know better but it was sickening that they gave him the key to the city at the beginning of the year when he was the one who put the city in danger in the first place.

[Belinea]

Just a logical question: If Barry hadn't saved Oliver in S2, we can assume Oliver would have died, right? So if Barry messes with the timeline, Oliver should be dead because Barry never came to Starling to figure out his mother's murder. Or is that taking it too far? I really consider timeline changes to be so stupid because you need to pay attention to so so many details and they rarely can explain it well themselves, so you are mostly just very confused. 

[AyChihuahua]

1 hour ago, Belinea said:

Just a logical question: If Barry hadn't saved Oliver in S2, we can assume Oliver would have died, right? So if Barry messes with the timeline, Oliver should be dead because Barry never came to Starling to figure out his mother's murder. Or is that taking it too far? I really consider timeline changes to be so stupid because you need to pay attention to so so many details and they rarely can explain it well themselves, so you are mostly just very confused. 

I've said this a bunch of times now, so those who have already seen it, please forgive me, but the answer is not necessarily. If Barry hadn't come in the first place he wouldn't have used his forensic skills to find the sugar, leading to the refinery truck, leading to the blood bank robberies, leading to getting a sample of Gold's blood, leading to the ketamine, leading to ARGUS's warehouse o'drugs, leading to Oliver getting stabbed with the coagulant. Felicity still would have tracked Gold down, but likely in a different way, and Oliver's confrontation with him would have happened in a different place and manner.

[arjumand]

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I was on the side of Flash finale being somewhat isolated from Arrow.  But Arrow's finale is one of the endings more likely to set up a new time line for at least a while.  It wasn't an Easter Egg that continuity changed but they tied it up in a little bow and didn't set up much for next season.  That would be the best strategy if they wanted to minimize how pissed the audience would be that something set up in the finale did pay of in the premiere.

I'm thinking that all four shows may start with a crossover reboots and then rapidly restore the timelines by the second or third episode.

I would so love it if the only effect on Arrow would be Barry going to talk to Oliver (because now they're bestest buddies, I guess), and both Oliver and Felicity fix him with quizzical looks. There could be a wonderful exchange of "Who did you say you were?" "Barry Allen, the fastest man alive," "Sure, friend." There could even be a quip by Felicity, to the tune of "I don't think that's something to boast about, Benny." "It's Barry." "Whatever."

Please make it so, tv gods. Also, in Flashpoint Paradox, Barry gets beaten up a lot. I mean, not that I want that. Maybe? It's just that he never, fricking, learns! That's why I keep losing interest in the show - it's like my day job (dealing with stroppy teens), and I watch tv to escape.

Ugh. I'm still annoyed about the Flash finale. Do not mess with Arrow, Barry.

[FurryFury]

I don't even mind that Barry fucks up all the time - it's that the show never admits that he fucked up what's bothering me. I like flawed heroes, but please, don't sweep this under the rug. I did have a similar issue with Oliver's constant lies (way before the BMD) and hypocrisy, but it was never as pronounced as Barry just being colossally dumb and nobody ever calling him out.

[Genki]

After watching 4.23 of Arrow, I immediately watched 2.23 of the The Flash an boy was that terrible, I was tempted to switch it off because I was bored, Barry was annoying and lots of things were not making any sense and that was before the selfish time travel which I was spoiled about.

Regardless, they have done what they have done. Considering this it would make sense to me, to have the cross-over at 3.01 Flash, 5.01 Arrow, 2.01 LoT. I'm not sure how to incorporate Supergirl, since I'm not up to date but maybe she could kick it off by going to look for Barry in E1find an unpowered Barry who hasn't yet been made into The Flash...I dunno. But also as a marketing ploy and a way to introduce Supergirl to the CW's line-up I think it would be interesting. They would generate and shitload press and interest, and it's something that other shows don't tend to do. Also it could make it  clear to all those non internet viewers that Supergirl has moved to the CW...I digress.

If the Flashpoint Paradox is going to affect the rest of the Flarrowverse I guess I would prefer this than waiting for the shoe to drop in the x-over episode (Ep8) of each show. And while I don't mind an alternate universe for an episode of Arrow, I don't want Flash to affect it too much, who wants to invest that much time in something that could be reset anyway, who know what level stupid they can do. 

This would also have the added bonus of Arrow's 100th episode being about Arrow and not anything else. 

[ruby24]

I still don't believe there's any way that the Flashpoint story won't be 1) contained within The Flash only, and 2) wrapped up within 1-2 episodes, tops. I imagine it as an alternate universe two part opener or something, kinda like the Earth-2 episodes, before Barry inevitably fixes the timeline and makes it back to the old one, but now, finally with all his appreciation for it because the alt timeline turned out to be so horrible.

I just don't buy that they're going to make it last all the way into the crossover episodes.

[KirkB]

I agree with Ruby24. I don't see it reaching outside of Flash or lasting very long.

I know it's going to be connected somehow, but I still really do not want Supergirl to be a part of the Flarrowverse. At least, not in the sense she is suddenly on the same Earth as them. Because I have a hard enough time wondering why Oliver doesn't call Barry half the time, no way can I ignore how useful Supergirl, her cousin, and J'onn would have been against Zoom or the near nuclear disaster. 

[tv echo]

The 15 Most Insane Moments From The Superhero TV Season, Ranked
BY LAURA HURLEY   MAY 26 2016
http://www.cinemablend.com/television/15-Most-Insane-Moments-From-Superhero-TV-Season-Ranked-140877.html

Quote

10. Central City's Destruction (Arrow/The Flash)
The second crossover extravaganza between Arrow and The Flash raised the stakes of the entire universe when it introduced immortal Vandal Savage, whose quest to murder Kendra Saunders and Carter Hall put him in the path of Oliver Queen and Barry Allen. The foursome concocted a scheme to take down Savage, but their plan immediately went south when Carter and Kendra were killed. Vandal Savage then set his sights on Barry and Oliver, and only Barry was fast enough to escape his wrath. Oliver was almost immediately incinerated, and the rest of Central City soon followed as Barry raced to survive. Luckily, he went fast enough to go back in time, but seeing the Green Arrow die and a city destroyed was a huge shock.  
*  *  *
8. Vandal Savage's Takedown (Legends of Tomorrow)
Vandal Savage survived the Flarrow crossover to become the main villain in Legends of Tomorrow Season 1, and Rip Hunter’s band of misfits spent sixteen episodes trying to figure out how to take him down for good. Finally, they discovered that they needed to kill three versions of Vandal Savage at different points in the timeline if they wanted to stop him from destroying the world as it was. Heatwave burnt one Vandal Savage to a crisp, Sara snapped the neck of another Vandal Savage, and Kendra and Rip teamed up to kill the last Vandal Savage. It was a triple death that took a toll, but it ended Savage for good. 
*  *  *
7. When Havenrock Went Bye Bye (Arrow)
Damien Darhk spent most of Season 4 of Arrow thwarting Oliver and Co. with his magic, but he took a major technological turn in the final episodes. He stole the ARGUS Rubicon protocol so that he could take control nuclear arsenals all over the world. His first attempt at destroying the planet via nuclear apocalypse was stopped by a hacking teamup of Felicity Smoak and her dad, but one nuke got through. Although Felicity was able to divert the bomb away from the millions of people in Monument Point, tens of thousands were killed in the town of Havenrock. Arrow dropped a nuclear bomb, and it was huge. 
*  *  *
4. Barry's Decision To Save His Mom (The Flash)
The last few episodes of Season 2 of The Flash put Barry through a physical and emotional wringer, and he was lucky to emerge from his final showdown with Zoom alive. The rest of the population of the world is not so lucky, considering what Barry did next. Overwhelmed with grief at the murder of his father, Barry broke approximately a bajillion rules about time travel, went back in time, and stopped his mother from being killed by Reverse-Flash. He changed his own timeline in a big way, and very bad things are likely on the way for Season 3.
*  *  *
3. Team Arrow's Capture (Arrow)
The midseason finale was arguably the biggest episode of Season 4 of Arrow. Oliver finally paid for his public opposition to Damien Darhk when Darhk and the forces of H.I.V.E. kidnapped Felicity, Diggle, and Thea and locked them in a chamber that would gas the life out of them. In order to get them back, Oliver had to give himself up, Laurel had to show up as Black Canary to use her Canary Cry to break the walls of the chamber, and Malcolm had to wear Oliver’s leathers to play the part of the Green Arrow. The good guys won that battle, but the victory came at the cost of Felicity and Oliver’s limo being shot to shreds in the final moments. 
*  *  *
2. When Zoom Broke Barry (The Flash)
Good guys can never beat their bad guys early in TV seasons, but Barry took losing to a whole new low in his first major showdown against Zoom in Season 2 of The Flash. Barry proved that he was definitely not the fastest man alive when Zoom easily beat the stuffing out of him, broke his back, and dragged him all around Central City to show the citizens that their hero had fallen. It was a violent, ugly, and epic way to raise the stakes about Zoom.  

FYI for LoT fans...

Legends of Tomorrow - Warner's Details, Final Package in their Press Release for 'The Complete 1st Season'
Blu-ray Disc and DVD versions will both be in stores by late August
Posted by David Lambert  5/26/2016
http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Legends-Tomorrow-Season-1-Press-Release/22305

Edited May 27, 2016 by tv echo

[nksarmi]

I have no desire to buy Arrow or Flash, but I will totally pick up the Legends DVD. I'm so happy for a second season!

Edited May 27, 2016 by nksarmi

[SonofaBiscuit]

From the Schism episode thread:

Quote

Regarding "The Flash", why isn't anyone excited that they're doing "Flashpoint Paradox"?  Barry's always been an idiot, but the potential changes are amazing.

Nope. I can't be excited about another show (one that I very rarely watch) fucking up everything that's happened in the last four years on a show that I actually tune into every week.  Also, I was forced to sit through an entire season of Arrow setting up Ray Palmer's spinoff, a portion of another season bringing Sara back to life so she could be shipped off to a show not named Arrow, and the most recent season introducing some magical bullshit (with the dumbest most useless flashbacks ever) because Barry Allen's wonderful reception over on The Flash convinced the producers that Arrow no longer needed to be grounded in reality.  Fuck off, Barry, you're not welcome here anymore.    

[Sakura12]

6 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I have no desire to buy Arrow or Flash, but I will totally pick up the Legends DVD. I'm so happy for a second season!

I'd pick it up for the extras. 

[Trini]

If they do Flashpoint, I agree it would be mostly contained on The Flash. If anything, the 4-way crossover is where they could tie it into the other shows.

I've been trying to think of what would replace the Amazonian/Atlantean War in the 'Flarrow-verse'. Best bet I think would be Ra's al Ghul and the League of Assassins vs. ... Darkh and Hive? or Deathstroke and his Mirakuru army?

[Delphi]

32 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'd pick it up for the extras. 

Eh,  I'd wait for the extras to pop up on YouTube.   I'm so cheap. 

[Sakura12]

True, I mostly want to see the gag reel. Especially from an comic con panel with Arthur Darvill and Caity Lotz where they said that they acted like little kids sometimes during filming and Victor Garber would get mad at them.

I recently bought Deadpool on DVD and that's the first DVD I bought in over 2 years. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Everything is so easily available on Netflix, especially the CW shows. I just wait for the extras to hit youtube, I'm cheap ?

[Morrigan2575]

Sorry for jumping threads, I forgot that Daredevil goes in this thread and not Quiver. 

4 episodes into S2 and I am loving it. I was a fan of Barenthal on The Walking Dead and I'm really enjoying him as The Punisher. 

It's only been 4 episodes but I kind of like S2 better than S1 (so far).  I have to give props to that stairway fight, that was pretty awesome and the camera technique reminded me of watching a cut scene from a video game. Pretty cool effect.

[Sakura12]

Saw X-Men Apocalypse, I enjoyed it. It wasn't as bad as the critics made out to be. It wasn't the best X-Men movie but it wasn't the worst. Quicksilver's scenes once again stole the movie. Fassbender and McAvoy were great as well. The ending had a little too much CGI, some characters could've been utilized better, other than that I liked it. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

Another Marvel dubsmash...

[Velocity23]

i am gonna get me some ice cream.

[Primal Slayer]

Meh, all he says is that they'd be a good match. Nothing to exciting.

[NorthstarATL]

On 5/26/2016 at 0:42 PM, FurryFury said:

I don't even mind that Barry fucks up all the time - it's that the show never admits that he fucked up what's bothering me. I like flawed heroes, but please, don't sweep this under the rug. I did have a similar issue with Oliver's constant lies (way before the BMD) and hypocrisy, but it was never as pronounced as Barry just being colossally dumb and nobody ever calling him out.

Who is going to call him out on any of it? All he has to do is stick his fingers in his ears, run really fast, and change the timeline to one where no one knows what has changed. The BEST thing they could do is have Rip Hunter and his team target Flash as the Big Bad of the next season and show him that his selfishness has actually made the universe worse for people who are not related to him, and see if he even cares.

 Playing around with the timeline does give the powers that be a bit of wiggle room, though. Particularly where Supergirl is concerned, the move might not be so easy to do between countries (aren't they going to be filming in Canada?), and maybe they need to make some changes that could be explained as Barry messing things up.

[FurryFury]

1 hour ago, NorthstarATL said:

The BEST thing they could do is have Rip Hunter and his team target Flash as the Big Bad of the next season and show him that his selfishness has actually made the universe worse for people who are not related to him, and see if he even cares.

So that The Flash fanboys who think it's the best show ever would start hating on Legends? No thanks. Narratively, I'd love that, but I cringe just thinking about the fan reaction if Barry's ever presented as a screw up that he is. The fans are often willing to cut the male leads all kinds of slack. I mean, Felicity got more hate for her (totally justifiable) reaction to BMD than Oliver. 'Nuff said.

[bijoux]

What I'm getting from all these comments is that the giant crossover should really be an extended therapy session for everyone, but primarily Barry and it should feature a lot of tough love, i.e. verbal smackdowns and possibly a phyical one as well.

On 27.05.2016. at 4:56 AM, KirkB said:

no way can I ignore how useful Supergirl, her cousin, and J'onn would have been against Zoom or the near nuclear disaster. 

Not to mention both these threats would affect them as well if they were on the same earth.

[Trini]

'All of This Year’s Superhero TV Shows, Ranked' -- It seems they've factored in previous seasons, though.

#1 - Daredevil, #2 - The Flash
#3 - Jessica Jones
#4 - Arrow
#5 - Agent Carter
#6 - Constantine (shouldn't be in this list...)
#7 - Agents of SHIELD
#8 - Supergirl
#9 - Gotham
#10 - Legends of Tomorrow
#11 - Powers
#12 - Heroes Reborn
 

[Sakura12]

I'm catching up on Gotham, and are we supposed to like Jim Gordon? I find him to be a bad tempered idiot. I don't see how he'll ever be the commissioner. Batman will need to protect the city from him. 

Bruce is a single minded idiot as well, but he's a sheltered rich kid. Jim's an adult. 

[nksarmi]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

'All of This Year’s Superhero TV Shows, Ranked' -- It seems they've factored in previous seasons, though.

#1 - Daredevil, #2 - The Flash
#3 - Jessica Jones
#4 - Arrow
#5 - Agent Carter
#6 - Constantine (shouldn't be in this list...)
#7 - Agents of SHIELD
#8 - Supergirl
#9 - Gotham
#10 - Legends of Tomorrow
#11 - Powers
#12 - Heroes Reborn
 

Jessica Jones should easily top that list. I'd rank Flash below Arrow, Supergirl, and Legends. I don't watch any of the others (could not get through season two of Daredevil and I was bored silly in season one, but I'm just the wrong audience for that show).

[Starfish35]

It's hard for me to separate out what's objectively "best" from what I personally enjoyed.  But I only watch six shows on that list.  I only watched two episodes of Daredevil, and maybe an episode and a half of Jessica Jones, and had no interest in any of the others. 

Agent Carter would be #1 on my list.  After that it gets murkier.  Legends is my #2 favorite, but I can't in good conscience call it second best. So....let me do it this way. This is how I see them. And of course this is all just my opinion, in case it needed to be said. :)

Agent Carter - Points for: Peggy Carter.  I love Peggy. :) She's one of my favorite characters ever.  Jarvis.  Ana, who grew on me in spite of the odd accent.  Howard Stark.  Rose.  Dottie Underwood.  The whole noir feel. Points off for: the love triangle(s).  I also wasn't a huge fan of the Peggy/Daniel ship, though obviously that's a matter of personal taste.  I also wasn't sure Whitney Frost and the whole Zero Matter storyline ended up being as interesting as Dottie and Leviathan. 

Agents of SHIELD - points for having probably the most well developed female characters on any of the shows, other than Agent Carter.  Also the best action scenes. Also points for cutting loose two of the show's weaker links (Lincoln and Ward).  Points off for general blandness, for special-snowflaking Skye Daisy, and for getting rid of Bobbi.

Arrow - points for trying to fix some of the problems of last season with a more interesting actor playing the Big Bad.  Also for having Laurel be the one in the grave.  Points off for....wow.  Worst flashbacks yet.  Baby mama drama.  Keeping Malcolm.  Throwing away a potentially interesting storyline for Thea for more Malcolm and the League drama. Botched handling of Felicity's paralysis storyline.  Squandering all the potential of a better villain.  Retconning the Lauriver relationship to make Laurel look even worse.  I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

Supergirl - points for having some of the best female characters and relationships in the Berlanti-verse.   For mostly maintaining an upbeat sunny tone.  For Martin Manhunter. Points off for that optimistic tone veering too far into outright cheesy cheese at times.  For the Kara/James will they/won't they. For James Olson who got hit with the Berlanti-verse love interest curse.  For the whole Superman bit.  For a very weak villain.

The Flash - points for....a great cast. :)  No seriously they're great.  I'm struggling to find good things to say about this season.  Ok.  Umm.  Zoom was really scary before they screwed it all up once we found out who he was.   Points off for a serious sophomore slump.  For being the worst show out of the six in its treatment of its female characters.  For "time remnants".  For making its hero look like a selfish terrible person.  For the repetitive storylines.  For continually undermining the Barry/Iris relationship.

Legends - points for the team.  (I enjoy team shows, but that might not be a selling point for everyone.) For letting Sara be badass, for a great character arc for Mick Rory, and to a lesser extent Leonard Snart.  For time and space ship travel fun.   For cutting loose their weak links at the end of the first season unlike another show I could name.  Major points off for Vandal Savage, for some really stupid writing, for the Hawks in general, and for never letting Kendra have any kind of storyline beyond who she was in love with. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Starfish35

[kismet]

Oh the Berlanti-verse love interest curse, so funny and yet so true!

That list is hard because I don't feel like Jessica Jones and Daredevil should be on the list. They are streaming shows that have to comply to absolutely no FCC or TV standards, they don't even have Cable rules to follow. SO they are special shows, of course they should be great they are unburdened, I would be very sad for them if they were not near the top of any lists.

As for the rest, I only watch some live so in that regard for me after this season 1. Arrow; 2. LoT; 3. Agent Carter 4. Supergirl 5. Flash. 6. Heroes Reborn. LoT eeks just over AC for truly bringing the team dynamic to the screen and basically making it up as they go along. I don't generally go for shows with teams & no principal character/duo, so the fact that they got me invested in the whole team was definitely a plus. Also AC lost a little steam for me by under utilizing Angie & Dottie in the 2nd season.

The other ones I binge so its different. I absolutely cannot wait to get my hands on Gotham. So it would probably get a high ranking. As for AoS, I'm kinda Meh about watching it this season. It doesn't pull me in as much as the others.

Constantine was cancelled, so shouldn't be on the list - but I did love the guy in his cameo on Arrow.

Powers - never heard of it.

[FurryFury]

I think overall, I'd rank Agent Carter s1 and JJ s1 as the best, closely followed by DD s2. They weren't *perfect* (OK, Agent Carter s1 pretty much was), but it was pretty damn good TV which had me emotionally invested and didn't insult me (other than The Hand's endless disposable mooks on Daredevil).

After that, it gets murkier. Agent Carter was still not exactly bad in season 2, but nowhere as good as the first one, and I almost wish it ended there. I liked what they did on Arrow in the beginning of season 4 (although I haven't seen all episodes), they've almost redeemed Oliver to me, but then they had to go and do BMD. They've also botched Sara's resurrection, making it all about Laurel. The flashbacks (again, from what I've seen) were just a clusterfuck of awful. The Flash is probably one of the worst comic book shows I watch ATM. Or maybe of all shows I watch. I can't in good conscience call Legends good, but I think it has a lot of promise and I genuinely enjoyed half of its episodes (although when it was bad, it was BAD, and even when it was good, plot and mythology made zero sense). Supergirl, eh, has promise, but please ditch Jimmy/Kara (although I could say this about all main "predestined" romances on all superhero shows, although, while I don't care about Jessica/Luke Cage or Matt/Karen, at least they didn't make me want to claw my eyes out like others do).

[tv echo]

Arrow's Willa Holland hits out at Suicide Squad and Justice League plans saying DC could learn from Marvel
29 MAY 2016   BY JO-ANNE ROWNEY
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/arrows-willa-holland-hits-out-8079268

Quote

She said at MCM London Comic Con : "Marvel does it in their own weird way - the mash between Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D and the movies and stuff.

"So it's a little upsetting because you know it is possible and it can be done and how good it would be if it was done."
*  *  *
Harley Quinn appeared back in season two of Arrow, before it was announced Margot Robbie would be playing the villain on the big screen.
*  *  *
Holland admitted the show had plans for the much loved villain but DC had clamped down.

She added: "We get it, we're not going to fight about it anymore."

She added the show had already created it's own Arkham Aslyum, but it all came to an abrupt end.

"When DC found out they were going to be doing their own movie we had to axe all of the characters before we even got to show them.

"It was annoying at first and then when Stephen found out there was going to be a Justice League movie it only seemed, rightly so, he would be playing Green Arrow on it as well as Grant playing the Flash. It just seemed like the right normal answer.
*  *  *
"Once they said no, you can't really fight against them for it, because they are the people that gave us a job in the first place.

"You just have to sit there on your hands, like okay, I get it!"
*  *  *
The Flash star Tom Cavanagh seemed to agree in his latest interview with Nerdist.

He called out Zack Synder who said the universes didn't fit together and had a different feel.

Cavanagh said Grant Gustin as an actor could have carried it off and he would back him for any big screen role as the Flash.

Edited May 31, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Legends of Tomorrow Season One Arrives from the Future August 23
ComicMix Staff May 29, 2016
http://www.comicmix.com/2016/05/29/legends-of-tomorrow-season-one-arrives-from-the-future-august-23/

Quote

BLU-RAY & DVD FEATURES

• DC’s Legends of Tomorrow: 2015 Comic-Con Panel – Warner Bros. Television Presents a Night of DC Entertainment at Comic-Con 2015: DC’s Legends of Tomorrow
• Jonah Hex: Hex Marks the Spot – Journey behind the scenes of “The Magnificent Eight” as producers bring the legend of Jonah Hex and the ways of the Old West to life.
• A Fantastic Voyage: Touring the Waverider Set – Journey behind the scenes with the production design team responsible for bringing the Waverider to life.  From the origin of the time traveling ship, to the VFX that completes the illusion, a complete look.
• History in the Making – Explore the cross over between fact and fiction, as the Legends team makes contact with a variety of eras thought the series.  Time travel with the heroes and villains of DC’s Legends of Tomorrow.
• Gag Reel

[Sakura12]

My list would be. 

1 -  Agent Carter S1
2 - Jessica Jones
3 - Daredevil S2
3 - Legends of Tomorrow
4 - Daredevil S1
5 - Agent Carter S2
6 - Agents of SHIELD
7 -  Arrow
8 - Gotham
9 - Supergirl
10 - The Flash

I never watched Powers or Heroes Reborn, I can't comment on those. 
 

It's hard to choose between Agent Carter and Jessica Jones. Both had amazing first seasons for a female led hero show. Agent Carter only slightly edged out Jessica Jones because of quickly I fell in love with Peggy Carter. The first CA movie became Agent Carter's Adventures with Captain America.

I loved Daredevil Season 2, more for the introduction of The Punisher and Elektra.  

Legends of Tomorrow while stupid was one of the more enjoyable shows this season. I loved the team dynamics. And of course everyone knows who  my favorite Flarrowverse character is. 

It took me awhile to get into DD Season 1, once I did I liked it. 

Agent Carter S2 wasn't as good as S1, but it had a lot of things I did like. The first being a compelling female villain that I did see as a formidable adversary for Peggy. Her arc kind of floundered at the end, she was enjoyable until then. Seeing Dottie again was also great. Wasn't so interested in the love story because it's hard to see Peggy with anyone other than Steve. Even though I know she had to move on. I'll just hope that it was with someone better than Sousa. 

I loved the first half of Agents of Shield this season. The second half was meh

I only watched a few episodes of Arrow this season and I enjoyed the eps I watched because they brought Sara back and killed Laurel.

Gotham I'm just now finishing and I'm really only enjoying seeing Baby Bat and Baby Cat. It's weird to have them friends as children but it does make it more interesting if we add that to their history when they become adults. 

Supergirl was just way too cheesy for me and The Flash is just way to childlike. I did enjoy the entertainment value of their team up. However it just showcased how Supergirl and The Flash are like children compared to the rest of the Flarrowverse heroes. 

[Delphi]

15 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm catching up on Gotham, and are we supposed to like Jim Gordon? I find him to be a bad tempered idiot. I don't see how he'll ever be the commissioner. Batman will need to protect the city from him. 

I think you're supposed to like him.  I don't.   I've mentioned in the Gotham forum that Jim is not a protagonist I can root for,  I mostly wait for him to get off the screen so I can watch all the other characters who are actually interesting. 

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

Arrow's Willa Holland hits out at Suicide Squad and Justice League plans saying DC could learn from Marvel
29 MAY 2016   BY JO-ANNE ROWNEY
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/arrows-willa-holland-hits-out-8079268

I mean,  she's not wrong.   DC pretty much had the chance to catch up with what Marvel was doing with their cinematic universe but kinda missed the entire point of what Marvel was doing.   Like the bratty kid you played with as a kid who took all their toys home because the game wasn't going the way they wanted.   Dc had this huge chance for this huge universe and they squandered it.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Delphi

[nksarmi]

If we rank just by seasons - I'd put Arrow season one and two higher than anything else in the Flarrowverse and I LOVE Legends and Supergirl (despite the cheesiness). But the first two seasons of Arrow were just so great to me. Here's hoping season five is a rebound lol.

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Delphi said:

I think you're supposed to like him.  I don't.   I've mentioned in the Gotham forum that Jim is not a protagonist I can root for,  I mostly wait for him to get off the screen so I can watch all the other characters who are actually interesting. 

Binge watching him is not helping. Every time I see him I want someone to punch him in the face so he's unconscious for the rest of episode. The prison episode was so hard to get through. 

[BkWurm1]

14 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm catching up on Gotham, and are we supposed to like Jim Gordon? I find him to be a bad tempered idiot. I don't see how he'll ever be the commissioner. Batman will need to protect the city from him. 

Bruce is a single minded idiot as well, but he's a sheltered rich kid. Jim's an adult. 

I think we are supposed to see Jim as a man that’s lost his way and gotten in over his head.  He wants to do what it right but the lines have blurred so badly.  I also think that guilt for crossing lines he never wanted to go near has him trying to make up for his past.  He’s being shaped to be the man that he will become.  He in the beginning was in some ways closer to who we’d recognize but his ideals were untested in the real world of Gotham. And he did falter.  I think Jim is a mess for most of the season but at his heart, he’s worthy of rooting for. I liked where he ended the season at. 

[Sakura12]

Yet another superhero show joins the ranks. This time on FX. It's from Marvel and in the comics David Haller is Professor X's son. 

Quote

FX Networks has ordered the first season of "Legion," the story of a troubled young man who may be more than human, it was announced today by Nick Grad and Eric Schrier, Presidents of Original Programming, FX Networks and FX Productions. Production on the eight-episode first season will begin this summer in Vancouver and the new series from FX Productions and Marvel Television will debut on FX in early 2017.

"Legion" introduces the story of David Haller: Since he was a teenager, David has struggled with mental illness. Diagnosed as schizophrenic, David has been in and out of psychiatric hospitals for years. But after a strange encounter with a fellow patient, he’s confronted with the possibility that the voices he hears and the visions he sees might be real.

Dan Stevens ("The Guest"), Rachel Keller ("Fargo"), Aubrey Plaza ("Parks and Recreation") and Jean Smart ("Fargo")

http://marvel.com/news/tv/26239/fx_networks_picks_up_legion_to_series?linkId=25044909

Edited May 31, 2016 by Sakura12