Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Guest]

Lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll Felicity being compliant to men :p 

 

Right? I LOL'd so hard. ;P

Edited March 2, 2016 by Guest

[tarotx]

Wait-what? Felicity has her own voice from the beginning. She even gets called horrible names on the internet for showing emotion and speaking her mind.

Probably Berlanti wants all women like that, sweet, compliant, don't argue with men, just like Felicity.

[Delphi]

I care. People watching Supergirl makes it less enjoyable for me because it messes up my indie, 'I like things no one else does' vibe.

[dtissagirl]

I care. People watching Supergirl makes it less enjoyable for me because it messes up my indie, 'I like things no one else does' vibe.

#NoNewFriends

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm not getting it.  Berlanti is a "misogynist" who wants his women characters sweet and compliant.  But the only place this seems to apply is on Arrow, since apparently things are totally cool with Kara, Iris, and Patterson over on Supergirl, The Flash, and Blindspot (also Berlanti productions)?  Huh?

[Guest]

This is hilarious to me but Felicity talk should probably go in the Felicity character thread. Or maybe the bitterness thread by the sounds of some posts. LMAO.

[AyChihuahua]

Haven't watched it recently so maybe she's change she was a regular Kathy Seldon when I watch.

She quit on her first day in the lair in S1. She told him to get his head out of his ass in S1. She argued with him about him letting Digg quit in S1. She went behind his back to try to get Digg back herself in S1. She argued with him about going undercover in the casino in S1. She told him he could pick someone better to have lunch with than his ex-girlfriend who was then his ex-best friend's girlfriend in S1. She argued with him about leaving the Foundry in S1. There's probably more...oh, even before she knew he was the Arrow she made fun of his cover stories and was quite judgy about his father canning all those steelworkers without pensions.

 

So really, how has she ever been "compliant"?

I care. People watching Supergirl makes it less enjoyable for me because it messes up my indie, 'I like things no one else does' vibe.

I'm in your corner, then. I think it's boring as hell. The only person I had any interest from the few episodes I watched was the Martian Manhunter.

Edited March 2, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

She quit on her first day in the lair in S1. She told him to get his head out of his ass in S1. She argued with him about him letting Digg quit in S1. She argued with him about going undercover in the casino in S1. She argued with him about leaving the Foundry in S1. There's probably more...oh, even before she knew he was the Arrow she made fun of his cover stories and was quite judgy about his father canning all those steelworkers without pensions.

So really, how has she ever been "compliant"?

 

The only one time I think she was compliant was when she was with Ray and I hated the show for doing that to her character. But other than that, I can't think of anything. And calling her complaint is like saying Malcolm is a good guy. Completely wrong. 

[AyChihuahua]

The only one time I think she was compliant was when she was with Ray and I hated the show for doing that to her character. But other than that, I can't think of anything. And calling her complaint is like saying Malcolm is a good guy. Completely wrong. 

Yeah, the Cane Toad stuff is forever horrifying. If I had my druthers she would have nut-punched him in 3.2 and we'd have never seen him again unless it was bc he was in the hospital having his testes untangled.

 

But that was one or two episodes long after we spent 2+ years seeing how NOT compliant she is.

[statsgirl]

Nope, no resemblance at all. Not even superficially.

 

I like how even the hair part is on the same side.

 

AK said in his interview with Kevin Smith that while The Flash was pretty much the same in the season finale as the season opener, both Arrow and Supergirl had to develop in order for the shows to jell.  So I can see that the initial Kara was very much like Felicity, smart and strong but with little belief in her own abilities and strengths.  It's a good starting point, and not coincidentally, it's much like Clark Kent when he first arrives at the Daily Planet.

 

Is Kara still like Felicity? I don't know, I just know she's not like Iris who seems to barely have a place in her own show any more.

 

I'll stop watching Supergirl and The Flash, there is nothing for me to enjoy, especially as a karolsen and Westfalen shipper.

Kara/James?  That anvil couldn't have hit harder if it had been powered by the missile.  I like them but I'm worried that it's happening too soon, which means bad things before the end of the season.

 

Westallen is the ostensible endgame on The Flash but AK will do everything in his power to delay it as long as possible, including numerous roadblocks and intermediate relationships (that I think would have been better for the characters like Iris/Eddie)..

Edited March 2, 2016 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

Lol Blonde terror :p I guess for me, I'd rather focus on my own shows first before complaining about other characters in other shows because in the end, the likelihood of a guest star like felicity is to the flash making so much of an impact on that show is very slim to none.... If I still watched the flash I'd prioritize criticizing how Iris is getting the short end of the stick repeatedly instead of talking about guest stars (like Felicity) ad nauseum..

Edited March 2, 2016 by wonderwall

[bijoux]

She quit on her first day in the lair in S1. She told him to get his head out of his ass in S1. She argued with him about him letting Digg quit in S1. She went behind his back to try to get Digg back herself in S1. She argued with him about going undercover in the casino in S1. She told him he could pick someone better to have lunch with than his ex-girlfriend who was then his ex-best friend's girlfriend in S1. She argued with him about leaving the Foundry in S1. There's probably more...oh, even before she knew he was the Arrow she made fun of his cover stories and was quite judgy about his father canning all those steelworkers without pensions.

 

The "right after you get yours out of your ass" came in S2, after Felicity came back from CC where she was visiting comatose Barry. I feel it's important to keep this straight because that argument is near and dear to my heart.

[BkWurm1]

So in the recent episodes of Peggy Carter, Jarvis's wife was shot and I couldn't help compare and contrast it with Arrow and Felicity getting shot.  I was very envious that on Agent Carter we got to see Jarvis completely broken and sitting by her bedside hoping she'd wake up, making her all these mundane promises, like making her an apple torte every week.  So much more emotionally satisfying.  But then when she was well enough, Jarvis slipped right into revenge mode and off he went hoping to get blood. 

 

What made it better for me than Oliver out there fruitlessly bashing heads, was the real conversation/argument Peggy and Jarvis had over his behavior (and her actions).  Really excellent and real.  Felt for both of them, both were truly angry and both in the end were sorry.  So I was feeling sorry for myself until I realized that temporary paralysis is a much better get than yup, complications from her injury preventing his wife from ever having children. 

 

So I guess you take the bad with the good. 

 

Side note:  Jarvis talks about how Anna his wife was so strong, far stronger than he is and Peggy said Jarvis was selling himself short and may be the strongest of them all.  Not quite the same as Arrow but really close (since Jarvis is also not a fighter)  So who do you think wrote it first, lol, Arrow, Peggy Carter or just the kind of thing everyone always says? 

Edited March 3, 2016 by BkWurm1

[lemotomato]

Side note:  Jarvis talks about how strong Anna his wife, far stronger than he is and Peggy said Jarvis was selling himself short and may be the strongest of them all.  So who do you think wrote it first? 

Tara Butters, because MG wasn't involved in writing episode 410 :P

[nksarmi]

I don't think MB could pull off smart alec.

 

The more I watch Supergirl. The less I see the similarities between FS & Kara. They were there at the beginning superficially. But I think now the writers are writing Kara as her own person. If anything, I think they do borrow heavily from the Clark Kent clumsy adorkable barrel a lot. And like I've said before, if there is anyone that Kara reminds me of its Barry Allen. It often feels like those shows are too similar imo. They repeat a lot of the same themes.

 

Well I kind of think Kara is made of stronger stuff than Barry and she doesn't really need pep talks as much as he does (morality talks sure - but that's not the same thing lol). Oh and she cries less than Barry.  Actually, there are tons of differences but I still kind of get what you mean. :)

[BkWurm1]

she doesn't really need pep talks as much as he does (morality talks sure - but that's not the same thing lol).

 

 

Yeah, she doesn't need the "believe in yourself, you can do it," speeches anymore.  Kara actually needs her peeps to hold her back from being too violent, I kind of adore that.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

 

 

Guys, tap the brakes on the arguing.  

 

[kismet]

Well I kind of think Kara is made of stronger stuff than Barry and she doesn't really need pep talks as much as he does (morality talks sure - but that's not the same thing lol). Oh and she cries less than Barry. Actually, there are tons of differences but I still kind of get what you mean. :)

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But it kinda feels the same perhaps its their age, similar personalities & similar circumstances (super powers, secret ids, adopted orphans). I appreciate that Kara doesn't need as many pep talks, but it still feels like every week she needs some type of talk or support from her team. I would just like to see them both be able to be independent one day. Not turning their support away, but breaking off the codependence.

[way2interested]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But it kinda feels the same perhaps its their age, similar personalities & similar circumstances (super powers, secret ids, adopted orphans). I appreciate that Kara doesn't need as many pep talks, but it still feels like every week she needs some type of talk or support from her team. I would just like to see them both be able to be independent one day. Not turning their support away, but breaking off the codependence.

Maybe we'll see something come 118 for Supergirl? They can't both need pep talks/ support talks in that one if they want to actually win, although that kind of frames it as setting it up for a possible pep talk from Barry.

[nksarmi]

Maybe we'll see something come 118 for Supergirl? They can't both need pep talks/ support talks in that one if they want to actually win, although that kind of frames it as setting it up for a possible pep talk from Barry.

 

Earth 2 Barry gave Earth 1 Barry a pep talk - I will shocked, like totally floored - if Barry is actually on the giving end this time.  He's had some nice speeches for Oliver - but I think he usually ignores them.

[statsgirl]

I'd like to see Supergirl and Barry have enough self-confidence that they don't need pep talks. Failing that, I'd like to see them pep talk each other.  Or Alex can pep talk Barry for a change and Hank can pep talk Supergirl.

 

The combinations seem infinite.

[kismet]

If they both need talks so much, I would love to see them start talking into mirrors like Stuart Smalley. Cut out the middle man. Doggone it :)

All joking aside, I think the whole Flarrowverse is in need of some therapy. Maybe next crossover can be a retreat somewhere.

[jaytee1812]

Earth 2 Barry gave Earth 1 Barry a pep talk - I will shocked, like totally floored - if Barry is actually on the giving end this time.  He's had some nice speeches for Oliver - but I think he usually ignores them.

If Barry gives Supergirl a pep talk I think that would be it for me. The one thing I can give the show credit for, is they have avoid her being able to do what she does without some white dude explaining to her.

I say that would be it for me if I tolerated Glee for Melissa, I'll probably carry on with Supergirl. I'll just be more annoyed with it.

[nksarmi]

If Barry gives Supergirl a pep talk I think that would be it for me. The one thing I can give the show credit for, is they have avoid her being able to do what she does without some white dude explaining to her.

I say that would be it for me if I tolerated Glee for Melissa, I'll probably carry on with Supergirl. I'll just be more annoyed with it.

 

Well given Barry's history, I don't think he can talk to her about morality much and she seems pretty damn confident (she had Alex to help her when she wasn't).  I haven't seen the most recent episode yet so the best I can think of is Barry helping her with Alex if the truth of what happened with her aunt comes out by then.  Otherwise, Barry can talk to her about what it feels like to watch your crush be with another person.  That's about all I got that would feel natural lol.

[KirkB]

Barry doesn't seem to have much of an issue with taking a life when it's to protect others. Probably because he was raised by a cop. And by the fact one of his mentors was a supervillain. Kara, being one of the two most powerful beings on Earth, probably has a whole different view of morality. Considering her strength and speed and virtual invulnerability it's almost never necessary for her to kill. Had she been there when Astra was threatening Hank she could have sped over and grabbed her arm, Alex had no other way to stop her.

[bijoux]

How many people has Barry killed? I don't watch the show so I only know of Savage in this year's crossover.

[KirkB]

I mostly meant with the concept more than specifically killing anyone, but I seem to recall at least one of his opponents got frozen or something and he shattered him.

[lexicon]

So in the recent episodes of Peggy Carter, Jarvis's wife was shot and I couldn't help compare and contrast it with Arrow and Felicity getting shot.  I was very envious that on Agent Carter we got to see Jarvis completely broken and sitting by her bedside hoping she'd wake up, making her all these mundane promises, like making her an apple torte every week.  So much more emotionally satisfying.  But then when she was well enough, Jarvis slipped right into revenge mode and off he went hoping to get blood. 

 

I saw that scene and was so close to whipping out my phone and tweeting MG to ask if he'd let the good Mrs MG vet his scenes from now on because Jarvis was a broken man at Anna's bedside and I loved it. Then I calmed down and realised that I was acting like an insane person but for a second there I was so sad that we were getting the short end of the stick when it came to the Guggenheim/Butters showrunning empire.

[nksarmi]

How many people has Barry killed? I don't watch the show so I only know of Savage in this year's crossover.

 

It sure seems like a couple of his metahuman opponents have died while he was fighting them.  I don't think he's deliberately killed anyone, but stuff happens.

[Trini]

Barry has killed people, starting this season. (One of the problems I'm having with Season 2.) At least two; and I'd count Sand Demon as deliberate. I could go into it more in the Flash forum.

[jaytee1812]

I saw that scene and was so close to whipping out my phone and tweeting MG to ask if he'd let the good Mrs MG vet his scenes from now on because Jarvis was a broken man at Anna's bedside and I loved it. Then I calmed down and realised that I was acting like an insane person but for a second there I was so sad that we were getting the short end of the stick when it came to the Guggenheim/Butters showrunning empire.

But Agent Carter has James D'arcy who has that in his locker, Amell, not so much. He's fine as a monosyllabic tough guy but nuance is well beyond him.

[BkWurm1]

But Agent Carter has James D'arcy who has that in his locker, Amell, not so much. He's fine as a monosyllabic tough guy but nuance is well beyond him.

SA can do frantic and broken, we've seen it, they just didn't let him.

[statsgirl]

 Kara, being one of the two most powerful beings on Earth, probably has a whole different view of morality. Considering her strength and speed and virtual invulnerability it's almost never necessary for her to kill. Had she been there when Astra was threatening Hank she could have sped over and grabbed her arm, Alex had no other way to stop her.

They kind of addressed this in James' speech to her in ep 14 Truth Justice and the American Way when he said that Max Lord is afraid of her because she's so powerful. And being that powerful is the reason she has to be held accountable for what she does.

 

 

It is a great statement on the much of the current thinking of certain politicians in America today.  "Stronger together, but this is not strength."

[kismet]

I saw that scene and was so close to whipping out my phone and tweeting MG to ask if he'd let the good Mrs MG vet his scenes from now on because Jarvis was a broken man at Anna's bedside and I loved it. Then I calmed down and realised that I was acting like an insane person but for a second there I was so sad that we were getting the short end of the stick when it came to the Guggenheim/Butters showrunning empire.

I really loved that scene. I also loved that for a little bit he tried to keep the truth from her while he was dealing with the rawness of the situation. It was well written and well acted.

 

I honestly thing the reason why it never crossed the writers mind to have OQ torn up over FS's paralysis is because they knew they were going to undo it in 4 episodes. I bet its the same reason they didn't have him feel all that guilty about the secret keeping, in 5-6 episodes they were going to undo it.  Because for the writers room both events were plot points and not character moments. No need to to bother with the emotional beats, we were gonna fix it 5. It's really disappointing that both the Arrow writers room & showrunners are so narrow minded when designing their storylines, that they forget about the human and character component of their storylines. They are so eager to hit their point or get their big game twist that they miss great opportunities with their storylines. If it weren't for some of the actors on the show, their storylines would probably crash a lot harder under the weight of their plottiness.

 

On a show like ARROW, whose default to plot twist. I really feel like for some storylines or emotional plot points, it would almost serve the script better to not tell the writers that they are going to undo whatever they write. Storyboard some major destinations, but wait to reveal certain game twists. Imagine what both storylines would have been like from a written perspective, if the writers knew there was no quick fix coming down the pike. I bet OQ/SA would have fought harder to prioritize being at FS's side. I also bet there would have been more nuance or emotional depth to the break-up. Instead everyone from the audience, actors and writers know that they really don't have to invest too many emotions in either outcome, because we are just waiting for the show to play out it's plot until the inevitable epic conclusion/reconciliation.

 

I feel like a show like Agent Carter written with both an equal emphasis on character and plot points because it's a more condensed show. More importantly because it is always nearing cancellation. So the writers feel obliged to do a well rounded story because there is no guarantee they can pull out the magic wand and fix whatever self-induced errors they made. I often believe shows are written better when there is no confirmation/expectation of renewal or at least when the stakes are a little higher like they were in Arrow s1. There are advantages & disadvantages to knowing how much time the show has left. But, I really wonder what ARROW would be like if it was shaky ground. It never really needs to fight for an audience or a network timeslot. It's ratings and its place on the CW is pretty stable. I wonder if that comfort level gives them false security to write very plotty plots as opposed to character driven stories, because they know they always have time to tell a character angle later. It's probably why Roy's character role got progressively better last season, because the writers knew it was their last chance to tell a story with him the character and not just a plot.

 

Agent Carter does not have that luxury, every season could be their last - so they have to tell the character stories they want to tell and ones that get the audience invested. It's why I think there is more emphasis on the characters and not the plotty plot. At the end of the day, most people I think will fight to have the characters they love return rather than a plotline that blew them away. So if the network needs to decide who to give another chance to, they probably pick the ones with the characters that resonate. There is always a new show with a new gimmick in the pipeline to replace a plotty plot show.

[AyChihuahua]

There's nothing on except LoT, and man, it's bad. And Ray is still terrible. Plus I think they're still pushing him and Kendra, which ain't pretty. 

[Delphi]

I'm loving this episode. I'm wondering if the AIS are all gender named or if they all have different names and Rip has the AI originally made by Barry.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Delphi

[AyChihuahua]

Okay, well, Sara's still awesome.

 

Why do people always have to walk all cool when their asses should be running?

 

Instead of doing Time Pirates they should have done Ice Pirates. Best movie EVAH!

Edited March 4, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Primal Slayer]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I feel like LoT gets so much done within an episode with basically everyone getting something to do. 

[AyChihuahua]

Oh god, EWWWWWWWWWW!

 

That was eww to the power of eww and then something logarithmic? 

Edited March 4, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Delphi]

Wow. Poor Lenny. :/ And ugh, there goes my Ray/Lenny ship. But yay Sara, still badass.

[apinknightmare]

What happened?

[AyChihuahua]

What happened?

Mick, the firebug guy, betrayed them to Time Pirates (WTF ever those are) and then Snart seemingly killed him.

 

Also, the main time guy told Mick he has the IQ of meat. Which I enjoyed, and may use to describe Oliver in the future.

 

Oh, and the Cane Toad and the talentless hawk lady made out. It was icky.

Edited March 4, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Sakura12]

I'm loving LoT. It's the only Flarrowverse show I look forward to watching every week. Arrow's sucked since season 2 ended and I didn't even watched the last episode of Flash, because I heard that they made the most boring man in the world Zoom. That actor is so wooden I don't need to see more than one of him. I suppose it's a good thing they are using Tony Todd's voice to make Zoom at least sound threatening. 

 

I don't mind Ray, he's a giant dork that doesn't do much. It's pretty much Sara, Len, Stein (sometimes with Jax) that save the day all the time. The rest of the team is the JV team. Ray can get with Kendra because that keeps him away from Sara. 

[foreverevolving]

Wow. Poor Lenny. :/ And ugh, there goes my Ray/Lenny ship. But yay Sara, still badass.

Never lose hope!! EVER!

Think about it.. before season 2 we were all always sure "no way would Arrow do Olicity as long term" and now... lesson to be learned: don't lose hope.. we will one day get our coldatom ship!

I mean seriously go onto AO3 LOT page and a good portion of the fics there are coldatom! with some captain canary and some cold canary throw in for good measure.

 

Any way.. Kendra and Ray kissing happened.. i'm gonna go scrub my brain.

Edited March 4, 2016 by foreverevolving

[apinknightmare]

Mick, the firebug guy, betrayed them to Time Pirates (WTF ever those are) and then Snart seemingly killed him.

Also, the main time guy told Mick he has the IQ of meat. Which I enjoyed, and may use to describe Oliver in the future.

Oh, and the Cane Toad and the talentless hawk lady made out. It was icky.

Haha, thank you!

[jay741982]

Ugh at Ray and Kendra making out I'd rather Jax had gotten her.

I can't get sad about Clexa on the 100 cause I remember what she did to Clarke and her crew

[BunsenBurner]

Didn't like that Hawkgirl literally breaks the front off Ray's ATOM suit and then a second or two later comes walking out to beat up the bad guys. She broke his suit. Continuity fails again in the DC universe.

[foreverevolving]

By the way I just remembered that they confirmed that the Time Masters names are not their real ones!!

So Rip is not really Rip.. Shell we restart the: Rip is Oliver descendent guessing game?. I mean if Oliver and Felicity had any kids and one of them escaped Star City after the siege they may have ended up in London and.. Just sayin.

Edited March 4, 2016 by foreverevolving

[way2interested]

By the way I just remembered that they confirmed that the Time Masters names are not their real ones!!

So Rip is not really Rip.. Shall we restart the: Rip is Oliver descendent guessing game?

Ngl, that theory popping up again was the first thing that I thought of when they were talking about that in the episode. I'm not on board the theory, but I've got to know who he really is now just because things like this on shows bother me.

[foreverevolving]

Ngl, that theory popping up again was the first thing that I thought of when they were talking about that in the episode. I'm not on board the theory, but I've got to know who he really is now just because things like this on shows bother me.

Since, to my recollection anyway, neither one of the EPs has debunked this theory I will continue to believe Rip is related to someone on Arrow, and the only ones who makes sense are Oliver and Felicity.