Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[quarks]

The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA) just nominated Wonder Woman and Logan for Outstanding Dramatic Presentation:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/20/17032222/2018-nebula-awards-nominations-best-science-fiction-fantasy-books-movies-read-online

[statsgirl]

I accidentally caught the end of tonight's The Flash. Barry was all sadz because he was about to be sentenced.

Iris: Barry,  you're strong because of your mother and father. I'm strong because I've got you

Me: Seriously? What is this, 1918? No, wait,  in 1918 no woman would have said that because the men were at war and the women has to hold down the home front. Same with 1818. What century is this show in?

[thegirlsleuth]

I'm finally watching Agents of Shield.  I'm up to season two, and Adrianne Palicki just showed up.  I've loved her since Friday Night Lights, but I kept thinking that she would have been an awesome Black Canary.  Sharp, loyal, and great with battle staves, I'm really liking her.

[WindofChange]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Iris: Barry,  you're strong because of your mother and father. I'm strong because I've got you

The sad thing is that she only became a part of the team because she knew that was what BARRY would've wanted.

Apparently everything about Iris revolves around Barry.

• Non existent career is because she's hanging around Star labs which is revolved around Barry
• Her strength is because of Barry
• She says that all she needs is Barry

Basically putting all of this together The Flash in season 3-4 implies that Iris is and has nothing without Barry and quite honestly I find that to be incredibly sad. She has zero self-motivation to do anything with her life because lately only Barry seemed to have motivated her to do anything, she has zero life (I mean all of her friends are Barry's friends), and she has zero interests outside of Barry.

Quite sad and pathetic and shame on The Flash for misusing this character in such a gross way.

[Trini]

Diggle and Felicity aren't pathetic because their lives revolve around Oliver and Green Arrow, so I wonder why it's so bad for Iris in particular. However, she's the one who is able to keep everyone working together as team leader, and the 'glue' that keeps her family and friends connected.

I like how The Flash has shown that Barry & Iris complete and complement each other. He needs her as much as (or more than) she needs him.

[Trini]

Has there been any more info on Arrow's Black Lives Matter episode? Or has it been dropped?

[Starfish35]

A Closer Look at 'Black Panther's Record Smashing Opening

Quote

Actual grosses for the weekend are in and Black Panther continues to break more and more records after becoming only the fifth film to ever deliver over $200 million in its first three days of release and the second largest four-day gross in history. Those, however, are just some of the highlights from this past weekend and we'll begin by taking a look at the film's performance, beginning with the charts where Black Panther sits at #1. 

LARGEST FEBRUARY OPENING WEEKEND - $202,003,951
PREVIOUS RECORD HOLDER: Deadpool ($132,434,639)

LARGEST WINTER SEASON OPENING WEEKEND - $202,003,951
PREVIOUS RECORD HOLDER: Deadpool ($132,434,639)

LARGEST PRESIDENT'S DAY WEEKEND OPENING - $242,155,680
PREVIOUS RECORD HOLDER: Deadpool ($152,193,853)

LARGEST MONDAY - $40,151,729
PREVIOUS RECORD HOLDER: Star Wars: The Force Awakens ($40,109,742)

LARGEST THURSDAY PREVIEW GROSS IN THE MONTH OF FEBRUARY - $25.2 million
PREVIOUS RECORD HOLDER: Deadpool ($12.7 million)

Beyond those charts, Black Panther places second only to Star Wars: The Force Awakens, as the second highest four-day gross of all-time and the second largest Sunday of all-time by just $485,750. 

Black Panther also places second only to The Avengers on several charts, including the second highest opening for a comic book adaptation, for a film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, for a Marvel Comic adaptation and for a superhero movie. For that matter, within the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Black Panther has already outgrossed the lifetime domestic totals for Doctor Strange($232.6m), Thor: The Dark World ($206.3m), Thor ($181m), Ant-Man ($180.2m), Captain America: The First Avenger ($176.6m) and The Incredible Hulk ($134.8m) and will top Captain America: The Winter Soldier ($259.7m) once Tuesday grosses arrive.

[Miss Dee]

I live four hours away from a decent theater and I'm SO DREADING getting spoiled for this movie before I have a chance to see it. It's not going to be for at least 2 weekends yet.

[WindofChange]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Diggle and Felicity aren't pathetic because their lives revolve around Oliver and Green Arrow, so I wonder why it's so bad for Iris in particular. However, she's the one who is able to keep everyone working together as team leader, and the 'glue' that keeps her family and friends connected.

I like how The Flash has shown that Barry & Iris complete and complement each other. He needs her as much as (or more than) she needs him.

Uh Diggle and Felicity have lives outside of Oliver, their entire lives aren't entirely about Oliver. 

In season 3 both Diggle and Felicity realized that helping the city was not just Oliver's mission, it was theirs because they also believed in the cause. They'd be helping people with or without Oliver. Also, Diggle and Felicity don't think they're the Arrow unlike Iris who thinks she is also the flash. They both have their own identities as heroes. 

Not only that but Diggle and Felicity  have lives outside of Oliver. Diggle has his own family and Felicity has her own job and over the years have had friends who aren't really Oliver's friends (Alena, Curtis in S4, Ray in S3, Caitlin/Cisco in S2). We also saw that while she loved being with Oliver in S4, she didn't feel fulfilled just with being with him and doing nothing else with her life, which means Felicity doesn't only want Oliver in her life to be truly happy and fulfilled. 

Diggle nor Felicity get their strength from Oliver, they aren't motivated because of him, and while they do spend a lot of time with Oliver and would die for him, they have lives outside of Oliver and Team Arrow. 

So the situations aren't comparable at all. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by WindofChange

[Sakura12]

13 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I accidentally caught the end of tonight's The Flash. Barry was all sadz because he was about to be sentenced.

Iris: Barry,  you're strong because of your mother and father. I'm strong because I've got you

Me: Seriously? What is this, 1918? No, wait,  in 1918 no woman would have said that because the men were at war and the women has to hold down the home front. Same with 1818. What century is this show in?

Well Barry did grow up with Joe, "you can make decisions for Iris when you are her husband" as a father. They must be in the century where the woman's job is to support their man no matter what. yeah, they can get angry and not agree but they will always end up falling in line at the end. 

I waited for 3 years for Iris to get her own storyline and finally realized she wasn't going to get one that didn't involve Barry. The wedding really showed that Iris had no real friends of her own. Her bridal party consisted of Felicity (Barry's friend), Cecile (her dad's girlfriend) and Caitlin (a co-worker that she's never hung out with outside of work, also Barry's friend) and Felicity and Caitlin have actually made out with her fiance. That's really kind of sad. The Iris as the leader of Team Flash seemed shoehorned in to give her something to do since they didn't care to write anything else for her.  Even then it didn't seem like much of a storyline for her other then keeping her involved in the hero stuff. 

[insomniadreams88]

I think the problem is that I wouldn't be surprised if in an upcoming episode, the writers decide, "hey, let's just mention these other friends of Iris', say she also has this job outside of STAR Labs, etc." and expect viewers to go, "oh, okay, it must've been that way this entire time" and think there's nothing wrong with that when there definitely is. Look at how they dropped her journalism career. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah the comparison between Iris and Felicity/Diggle makes really no sense to me..they aren’t doing what I’d like them to do with Felicity this year but still she decided to start her own company and when Oliver quit the team she was still Overwatch because Oliver or not Oliver that is her mission. So much that between them it was Oliver that wanted to give up being a vigilante in season 3-4 and Felicity still helped the team. Exactly because her life doesn’t revolve around Oliver.

Even more with Diggle that has his own family and like Felicity has cared about the mission despite what Oliver chose to do during the years.

[SmallScreenDiva]

This reminded me of that stupid Geek Vibes Nation interview asking Guggenheim about a GA/BC romance despite Oliver being married ?

[Primal Slayer]

That was funny. But the two don't even share the same universe at the moment and by the time they do BP would probably be in his 3rd movie and itd be to rushed to even make happen. 

[Starfish35]

29 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

This reminded me of that stupid Geek Vibes Nation interview asking Guggenheim about a GA/BC romance despite Oliver being married ?

What do they say? I can't watch video at the moment.

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

What do they say? I can't watch video at the moment.

 They just joke around "are you trying to break me and Nakia up? Are you going to ask Lupita  that question?" 

Lupita "I don't want to talk about this. I'm very territorial, that's my king"

[quarks]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Diggle and Felicity aren't pathetic because their lives revolve around Oliver and Green Arrow, so I wonder why it's so bad for Iris in particular. However, she's the one who is able to keep everyone working together as team leader, and the 'glue' that keeps her family and friends connected.

I like how The Flash has shown that Barry & Iris complete and complement each other. He needs her as much as (or more than) she needs him.

For me at least, it's a script thing. Diggle and Felicity call themselves members of Team Arrow, and are recognized as part of a team.

Iris, on the other hand, doesn't describe herself as part of a team. Cisco, Julian and now Ralph have all described themselves as members of Team Flash. Iris, on the other hand, says, "We're the Flash." That is, she doesn't describe herself as a part of a team, but as part of Barry. And worse, once that happened, the already rare individual plot lines Flash had for her - her relationship with her father's partner, the journalism career, dealing with her mother - vanished. And since season one, when she chose to be with Eddie instead of Barry, Iris has never left Team Flash. And even then she didn't really leave Team Flash - she just said she was going to marry Eddie, not Barry.

And apart from occasionally getting to investigate stuff, her role on Team Flash is to basically be Barry - that is, the leader/motivator/etc. And this isn't because - as in Legends of Tomorrow - the rest of Team Flash recognizes her competence/comparative competence, or because - as in Arrow - she was either paying them/recruiting them - but because, as she herself has said, "We're the Flash." She doesn't take on her own role; she takes on Barry's.  And to an unfortunate large extent, this is because despite setting her up as the potential team investigator/interrogator, Flash really hasn't given Iris her own role on the team. Just Barry's.

Meanwhile, over on Arrow, yeah, Diggle and Felicity tend to revolve around Oliver and Team Arrow, but - both of them have left the team, both of them have their own supporting casts somewhat to largely separate from Oliver (as did Laurel back in season one), and both of them have their separate, well defined roles on Team Arrow. Yeah, Diggle steps into Oliver's place as team leader from time to time, but Diggle also functions as a mentor/info source/strategist/backup, and Felicity functions as the tech person.  The same is true for Team Not Arrow, even when they were on Team Arrow - Rene, apart from being the Team Rebel, had a job in the mayor's office and has a kid; Dinah is also a cop and had the whole Vigilante thing going on; Curtis had his husband and has the start up tech company.

Plus, when Team Arrow and Team Legends contact Team Flash for help, they generally reach out to Barry and Cisco, and occasionally Harry or Caitllin - but so far, never Iris. When Team Flash contacts Team Arrow for help, they generally reach out to Felicity and Diggle and Oliver, and occasionally Curtis and Lyla. And yeah, there's "science" and superpower reasons for this - Team Flash isn't asking Rene for help either - but it's another way where Iris kinda gets submerged into Barry, even this season after she's become the leader.

[lemotomato]

6 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

What do they say? I can't watch video at the moment.

The interviewer talks about how "comicbook fans" are excited to see "the Storm and Black Panther thing" and asks what Chad thinks. Chad asks him if he's trying to break up him and Nakia. ComicBook guy admits he "ships T'Challa/Ororo" and Chad laughs and dares him to ask Lupita that question. Lupita shuts ComicBook guy down.

Incidentally, the interviewer was also the moderator at Stephen Amell's panel in HVFF Nashville last year and asked SA about Oliver getting the comics!GA goatee.

[Starfish35]

16 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

 They just joke around "are you trying to break me and Nakia up? Are you going to ask Lupita  that question?" 

Lupita "I don't want to talk about this. I'm very territorial, that's my king"

Lol, that's great.  Thanks!

[SmallScreenDiva]

28 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

What do they say? I can't watch video at the moment.

Here's the link to the story that goes with the video. It has the exchanges. These are part of it:

Quote

 

ComicBook.com first asked Boseman if he wants to see the Ororo and T'Challa relationship fans are so very fond of. "Are you trying to break up my relationship with Nakia?" Boseman asked in response. "It sounds like that's what you're doing right now."

Nyong'o was a territorial about her character's man as can be! "I'm not happy to talk about this, at all! I feel very territorial," Nyong'o said. "That's my king!"

 

[Sakura12]

28 minutes ago, quarks said:

her relationship with her father's partner, the journalism career, dealing with her mother - vanished. 

Even when she had those storylines they still seemed to service other characters, her journalism plot was there to introduce Barry to Linda Park, then it pretty much disappeared when she did. Her mother storyline which I was hoping would be a good storyline for her became more about Joe getting the son he was always wanted which he talked about with Barry.  Iris's storyline in that was to get Wally and her dad together, she barely interacted with her mother until her deathbed scene.  The Eddie storyline is probably the last time Iris had something that was slightly more about her even then he was Joe's partner and listened and took advice about Iris from him.  

I wonder how Candice feels watching Black Lightning and seeing Black women have actual storylines about their characters and wondering if she could've been on that show. 

[Morrigan2575]

Ororo and T'Challa are divorced.

When I was reading a year or so ago, Ororo was with Logan (up till his death) and having Flashbacks to 'feels' for Kurt (they were bringing him back from the dead).

I have no idea if Ororo hooked up with Old Man Logan or went back to Forge or what but, I don't think (who really knows with comics) she's back with T'Challa.

[Velocity23]

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

Diggle and Felicity aren't pathetic because their lives revolve around Oliver and Green Arrow, so I wonder why it's so bad for Iris in particular. However, she's the one who is able to keep everyone working together as team leader, and the 'glue' that keeps her family and friends connected.

I like how The Flash has shown that Barry & Iris complete and complement each other. He needs her as much as (or more than) she needs him.

 

For me, my issue with Iris is that she isn't doing what she is passionate about except in the context of loving Barry.  What she personally is passionate about and brought her fulfillment, her career in journalism, has been set aside in order to support everything Barry.  She tried to take up the position of team leader because that is what she thought Barry would have wanted but even that was an illusion since, in the season opener, we saw the rest of the team were just letting her think she was in charge but actually cut her out of the real decision making.  She's not in charge because she rose to the position or was so great at it, but because there was nothing else for her to do to help.  She's leader until they disagree and then do their own thing.  

Barry doesn't even discuss or ask her opinion when he's around.     

It just feels that Iris sublimated all of her own plans and wants to what Barry wants and that she's only a token member of his team, there because she's the girlfriend/fiance/wife, not because the team needs her.  And that's an awful thing to have done to Iris who does come with a slew of talents and abilities, but the stuff that was uniquely hers, that stuff has been discarded except for what is there to support Barry. 

[Sakura12]

Episode 15 sounds like a busy episode with Jesse Quick and Constantine. 

What I find more interesting is she's teaming up with Barry and Jay on the Flash. They can find reasons for her but not for Wally to team up with the other Flash's? Or is she going to get knocked out early so Barry has to face stop the bomb alone. Like they have been doing with Wally. 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Episode 15 sounds like a busy episode with Jesse Quick and Constantine. 

What I find more interesting is she's teaming up with Barry and Jay on the Flash. They can find reasons for her but not for Wally to team up with the other Flash's? Or is she going to get knocked out early so Barry has to face stop the bomb alone. Like they have been doing with Wally. 

1

Or maybe she will be too busy looking at Iris's wedding ring to have time to go on the mission.  

[tv echo]

All the DC Superheroes Appearing on TV in 2018
By RUSS BURLINGAME - February 20, 2018
http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/01/02/all-the-dc-superheroes-appearing-on-tv-in-2018/

Quote

SLIDE 3/38 – GREEN ARROW

Oliver Queen is arguably the hero who started it all at this point. Following the success of Arrow, executive producer Greg Berlanti convinced DC Entertainment, Warner Bros. TV and The CW to roll the dice on the expensive and effects-heavy The Flash, which not only expanded the DC lineup in primetime but also fundamentally altered the chemistry of Arrow forever.

Oliver Queen, after five years on a desert island (ish) during which he taught himself survival, combat, and archery skills, returned to Star(ling) City with a plan to clean up the streets and make it safe for everyday people.
*  *  *
SLIDE 26/38 – SPARTAN
...
John Diggle, a character created for Arrow, was first Oliver Queen's bodyguard and later his closest confidant.

Eventually he became Oliver's backup in the field, and when that became a full-time gig, Diggle got a costume, a helmet, some cool gadgets, and a name -- Spartan.
*  *  *
SLIDE 33/38 – OVERWATCH/WINN SCHOTT

These two are getting lumped together not because they are not a huge asset to their super-teams -- but because they are original-ish creations (Felicity existed in the comics, but was nothing like her TV version) who do not suit up and go out to fight bad guys.

They are the technical support, the problem solvers, and often the only reason the good guy can stop villains who are at least in theory more powerful than they are. Team Arrow wouldn't be Team Arrow without Felicity -- something she and Oliver knew even when they were on the rocks. Now that they are married, that hopefully won't be a problem again.

Winn, meanwhile, is married only to his job, where he takes care of Guardian and Supergirl, depending on who's in the field that day.

Edited February 21, 2018 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

With Iris they could've gone with Iris finding out she was adopted and from the far future. Around the same time as Eobard's from and he could've been the one to tell her that and connected her to the main villain a bit. Her storyline could've been where she said she always felt out of place and didn't belong so finding out she's from a different time would've been interesting to see her deal with.  It would've been a good story for Joe and Iris and Barry being that Joe took in and raised two kids that were not his own. 

[statsgirl]

The idea of two people being in it together as a unit is a lovely romantic idea.  The problem with it on The Flash is that Iris is giving up her own identity (what there is of it) to join Barry in his.  It's every minority group there is, propping the status quo as the norm.  Also terrible for any woman to do.  Without Iris there would still be The Flash.  Without Barry, there would be nothing.

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I wonder how Candice feels watching Black Lightning and seeing Black women have actual storylines about their characters and wondering if she could've been on that show. 

She says in interviews how proud she is of playing an African-American leading lady in the Arrowverse.  But she has to hurt a bit when she sees how strong the characters on BL are, as opposed to everyone in interviews saying Iris is strong but it not being on screen.

[Starry]

Hi everyone! This is my first time posting here. I haven’t watched Arrow in a while so I won’t comment on Diggle and Felicity and their current role within Team Arrow. On the other hand, I love Iris and Westallen so I feel like adding my two cents…

I don’t think Iris as a character is sad and pathetic because she’s no friends outside of Team Flash or because she’s no job outside of Team Flash. It’s the writing that it’s sad and pathetic because there are no stories that don’t end up being centered around STAR Labs and what happens in there (nothing interesting imo…). This has been a problem I have had with the show since s1 but it has become more apparent in the following seasons. That’s not on Iris the character. It’s on the writers. They’ve decided not to show Iris as a journalist or cast guest stars whose main role is to be her friends. That doesn’t mean that Iris has no job (or even other friends considering how many extras were present at the Westallen church wedding…), it’s just not a part of the current narrative. Iris worked as a reporter at CCPN as late as s3. No mention has been made about her quitting or being fired so I assume she still works there. Just like Barry can be the Flash and work as a CSI she can be a reporter and the team leader. Unless they make a specific mention of her being without a job I can’t fault the character for what is a writing problem. The world of the Flash is limited in a way that Arrows wasn’t (at least when I still watched the show the writers were better at showing the city as a whole and how the various characters used to function within it, not just Team Arrow and the lair). The other Flash characters fall victim to this as well, it’s just that it is less noticeable because most of them have the luck to have originated in STAR Labs (Harry, Cisco and Caitlin). Even someone like Ralph, who’s getting plenty of screen time, has no role as a PI agent rather as the newest superhero. When Wally was still on the show he was just another Flash. If something doesn’t connect not to Barry, but to the STAR Labs team, it’s not worth a mention from the writers. Iris’ journalism is currently one of those things.

6 hours ago, WindofChange said:

In season 3 both Diggle and Felicity realized that helping the city was not just Oliver's mission, it was theirs because they also believed in the cause. They'd be helping people with or without Oliver. Also, Diggle and Felicity don't think they're the Arrow unlike Iris who thinks she is also the flash. They both have their own identities as heroes.

 

Iris has always believed in the cause. She started her blog because of what happened to Barry but then it became much bigger than that. It became about the city, something that she had in common with Barry and made them very compatible as a potential couple. It was Iris who kept the team together when Barry quit at the beginning of s2. She told him point blank that they (she and the team) were going to keep fighting to help the city whether he wanted them to or not. She is not taking over Barry’s identity at all. “We are the Flash” is not about Iris becoming Barry or taking over his identity because she has none of her own. It’s about communicating, sharing his burdens and becoming a unit. I don’t see how Barry and Iris being strong together and each other’s rock is a bad thing.

Also, I think Iris is completely different than Barry as a leader (has Barry ever been a real leader? He seems to ask “Guys what do I do?” too many times for my liking) because she’s level-headed, less impulsive and able to keep her emotions in check, something that Barry struggles with a lot of the times. No matter how much she loves Barry she thought about the risks of bringing him back in the season premiere and she was right, it was Cisco’s rush decision that created this season problem.

In conclusion, I wish The Flash were more like Black Lightning, which I love, not because Iris is a horrible character but because no Black Lightning character is defined in terms of “What can I do for Team Black Lightning?”. There’s no team. Gambi does on Black Lightning what Wells, Cisco, Caitlin and all the scientists they keep adding to Team Flash do on The Flash. On Black Lightning the city has more of a presence, the villains are much more layered and more time is spent on the family dynamics.

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Well Barry did grow up with Joe, "you can make decisions for Iris when you are her husband" as a father. They must be in the century where the woman's job is to support their man no matter what. yeah, they can get angry and not agree but they will always end up falling in line at the end. 

I waited for 3 years for Iris to get her own storyline and finally realized she wasn't going to get one that didn't involve Barry. The wedding really showed that Iris had no real friends of her own. Her bridal party consisted of Felicity (Barry's friend), Cecile (her dad's girlfriend) and Caitlin (a co-worker that she's never hung out with outside of work, also Barry's friend) and Felicity and Caitlin have actually made out with her fiance. That's really kind of sad. The Iris as the leader of Team Flash seemed shoehorned in to give her something to do since they didn't care to write anything else for her.  Even then it didn't seem like much of a storyline for her other then keeping her involved in the hero stuff. 

Sorry to be nitpicky but Barry never made out with Caitlin. That was an imposter wearing Barry's face.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Starry

[Sakura12]

Didn't they kiss when she was drunk and they sang karaoke? 

[Morrigan2575]

6 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Didn't they kiss when she was drunk and they sang karaoke? 

I think so

[way2interested]

No, I don't think they did

[apinknightmare]

I hope they didn’t saddle poor Caitlin with kissing that bag of trash or his lookalike more than once. 

[Sakura12]

I don't even remember the imposter scene. I must not have watched that episode. I was only thinking of whatever happened during the drunken karaoke one. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Sakura12

[WindofChange]

2 minutes ago, Starry said:

Hi everyone! This is my first time posting here.

Welcome to the board!

2 minutes ago, Starry said:

I don’t think Iris as a character is sad and pathetic because she’s no friends outside of Team Flash or because she’s no job outside of Team Flash. It’s the writing that it’s sad and pathetic because there are no stories that don’t end up being centered around STAR Labs and what happens in there (nothing interesting imo…).

The problem here is that the characters are the writing. They're defined by it. Having no friends and no job is incredibly sad regardless of how you see it. And if there are no stories that the writers think is important for Iris as well as the show then maybe she just doesn't belong on the show.

It's not that hard to have Iris say that she is working on an article, or meeting with a few friends once in a while, it takes the least amount of effort so it's difficult to say that she has a life outside of Barry because the show has never alluded to it. Also the fact that Candice Patton said that all Iris needs in her life is Barry is pretty indicative that she has nothing else going on in her life, nor does she need anything to be going on in her life... which again is kind of pathetic and can be easily rectified with a few changes in dialogue.

10 minutes ago, Starry said:

Iris has always believed in the cause. She started her blog because of what happened to Barry but then it became much bigger than that. It became about the city, something that she had in common with Barry and made them very compatible as a potential couple.

I honestly don't think I can buy that Iris believes in the cause. If Iris believed that her blog was genuinely helping, why did she stop? It's not like she doesn't have time.

The only time we saw Iris talk about why she's now a member of Team Flash is because she thought that's what Barry would've wanted in 401, that she kept running because of him. She never voiced this season that she wants to help people by helping Team Flash, that she wants to do something with her life, that being a part of the team gives her life meaning. So it's hard to really believe she believes in the cause when she never voiced it.

17 minutes ago, Starry said:

“We are the Flash” is not about Iris becoming Barry or taking over his identity because she has none of her own. It’s about communicating, sharing his burdens and becoming a unit. I don’t know how Barry and Iris being strong together and each other’s rock is a bad thing.

Iris makes a good point about wanting to communicate and share burdens, but the thing is, is that there are better ways to put this. The way she puts it now is that her only value on the show is her connection to Barry... Which is pretty much exactly what's happening. It's not bad that Barry/Iris are each others rocks, what's bad is that Iris' identity/passions/motivations gets lost because she's Barry's rock.

25 minutes ago, Starry said:

No matter how much she loves Barry she thought about the risks of bringing him back in the season premiere and she was right, it was Cisco’s rush decision that created this season problem.

Which is really another problem the show created in her validity as team leader. Cisco/Caitlin/Wally/Joe didn't listen to her even though she's team leader. The show did a massive disservice to Iris taking on the role as team leader because it's not really believable that this is what she wants to do when she's never shown any interest in it in prior seasons. They should've primed her for this role in season 3, built that respect between her and the team members... but instead they just damseled her most of the season while everyone else tried to find ways to save her.

No doubt Iris is smart and level-headed. This role is just not believable for her because there was no build up to her taking on that role.

[Lady Calypso]

15 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Didn't they kiss when she was drunk and they sang karaoke? 

No, they did not. I remember this because I paid specific attention to this, as the Caitlin vs Iris "war" was the strongest right at the beginning of the series and I was annoyed with the supposed love triangle that they were supposedly setting up (luckily that never came into fruition). They teased, but it never went farther than Barry helping Caitlin home. I think it was shortly after that episode that Ronnie appeared, anyway. 

Caitlin HAS kissed a guy that pretended to be Barry, and Killer Frost kissed Barry to try to kill him, though. 

[Sakura12]

Okay, so Caitlin hasn't made out with Barry. Either way she is Barry's friend that Iris met through Barry and just recently decided to be friends with. 

As for the job Candice was the one that said that the writers dropped that storyline, to me that implies that Iris is no longer a journalist.  Iris is the character so what they write for her is what I see. She deserves so much better then what she gets and what she gets is very little character development that is not about Barry. Even her own father talks more to Barry then he does to her. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah unfortunately what counts is what is on screen or we are no longer talking about the actual character but the version we as fans make up in our head..that’s why I’m annoyed with how they are handling Felicity starting her company..what we had so far isn’t enough for me and I’m not satisfied filling the blanks until when they get back to it (probably when they resolve the situation with the newbies).

[GHScorpiosRule]

32 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Didn't they kiss when she was drunk and they sang karaoke? 

No, they didn't. He took a drunk Caitlin home after she made our my ears bleed with her horrible, horrible singing. And I remember wanting to hear Barry/Grant sing MORE!

15 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

No, they did not. I remember this because I paid specific attention to this, as the Caitlin vs Iris "war" was the strongest right at the beginning of the series and I was annoyed with the supposed love triangle that they were supposedly setting up (luckily that never came into fruition). They teased, but it never went farther than Barry helping Caitlin home. I think it was shortly after that episode that Ronnie appeared, anyway. 

Caitlin HAS kissed a guy that pretended to be Barry, and Killer Frost kissed Barry to try to kill him, though. 

You beat me to it.

[Lady Calypso]

I basically stopped watching The Flash right when the trial stuff started last month. I just find the writing for the show piss poor, especially when it comes to women characters. Jesse got the worst send off and was made to look like an ice cold bitch with the way she broke up with Wally. Caitlin's finally gotten a season where there's no random love interest taking away from her story, but it took a while for that to happen. And the show didn't bother to write for Iris until this season, in which it's way too late to write for a main character without making it not fit. Maybe the show should have written a role on Team Flash for Iris BEFORE season 4. They had two full seasons to do so, and they didn't. And now, for her role on the team, her journalism is being erased. It's like they simply don't care about Iris enough to even attempt to give her a full fledged personality. She wasn't even able to participate in the crossovers until halfway last season. 

Iris should have a life outside of STAR Labs and outside of Barry. But because the last two seasons are basically Iris as Barry's love interest, rather than the first two seasons where they at least allowed her to live outside STAR Labs and outside of her apartment with Barry, of course Candice would feel obligated to say that Iris and Barry are basically one person. It's stupid as hell, don't get me wrong, but I don't put the blame on Candice on any of it. I feel bad for her, because Candice is a very competent actress. She's just been given a horribly written character with no backstory and very little voice until this season, so I wouldn't be surprised if Candice is confused on how to play her now. Iris is saying and doing things this season that she never did previously.

Well, either way, I'm not really planning to watch The Flash anymore, not unless something interesting actually happens. What a shame, because I thoroughly love every single actor and actress. But if they're going to treat Iris like crap, and if they're just going to ship off Wally with barely a line about his disappearance, then I'm not going to stick around for Ralph becoming the new hero. From what I've seen, they might as well change the name of the show from The Flash to Elongated Man. 

I'll stick to Legends, Black Lightning, Supergirl, and Arrow, pretty much in that order now. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Okay, so Caitlin hasn't made out with Barry. Either way she is Barry's friend that Iris met through Barry and just recently decided to be friends with.

No, not even Barry's friend. She was one of the people taking care of him while he was in the coma.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No, not even Barry's friend. She was one of the people taking care of him while he was in the coma.

Pretty much. Only the men can be friends. The women can sit by and cheer for the men.

(Though I really do enjoy Caitlin/Cisco's friendship).

[lemotomato]

There was an EOnline article in January where Candice talked about Iris and her place on the show. Some choice quotes:

Quote

Patton also liked Iris as a reporter, but she understands the constraints of the show.

"In the comic books, she is a reporter, and that's kind of how we started on the show, and I think it's ultimately how we should have continued," she says. "But for whatever reason I think it was complicated to integrate the two storylines—the STAR Labs side of things and the ‘Iris being a reporter' side of things. It was easier, I think, to have us all in STAR Labs, and it took a while for us to find a place for Iris to have agency."

"I think she should go back to being a reporter at some point," she continues, acknowledging that we've seen that future article written by Iris West-Allen. "So we'll see. I mean, Iris has done a lot. She was a barista, a reporter, and a leader at STAR Labs. She's got an impressive resumé."

Quote

"I mean everyone is so cerebral. Iris is more heart," Patton says. "She's good at rallying and cheerleading everyone and keeping everyone focused on moving forward and being a team. I mean she really is, in a lot of ways, a coach for a lot of people. She keeps the morale together and she encourages a lot of the team members."

Quote

On The Flash and across the whole of the Arrowverse (including Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, and Legends of Tomorrow), Iris is one of the few main characters without a superpower or super-skill. She's also not a scientist, or a cop with a licensed gun like her dad, and she's not a skilled archer like Arrow's Oliver or Diggle. She's also not a computer expert like Felicity, and she doesn't have a particularly fancy gun. Of every hero across the four shows, she's probably the most like a regular person, and the importance of the fact that she's so important—and not just as personal motivation for other characters—to the success of Team Flash can't be oversold.  

"I mean, it's great to have smart people, but if they can't get along or remember why they're there doing it, it's going to be difficult," Patton says.

We can talk all about what Iris should have, but it sounds like CP is perfectly fine with the show writing Iris as just the cheerleader for the team and Barry and whatever role the writers feel like putting her at the moment.

Edited February 21, 2018 by lemotomato

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

"But for whatever reason I think it was complicated to integrate the two storylines—the STAR Labs side of things and the ‘Iris being a reporter' side of things. It was easier, I think, to have us all in STAR Labs, and it took a while for us to find a place for Iris to have agency."

Yeah, I think I've said this before, but I think it was a mistake from the beginning not to set Iris up with a role in either STAR Labs or the police department (this was also a problem with Laurel).  I often see comparisons made to Lois & Clark (the TV show), but in that case, they both worked at the Daily Planet, which was kind of the center of the storytelling, and they were partners besides.  

They've apparently tried to fix it in an awkward fashion (I haven't watched since season two), but it would have been better if they'd had her in Team Flash from the beginning. *shrug* In my opinion anyway.

[Primal Slayer]

Some new Black Lightning promo

 

[Mellowyellow]

How is Comic Iris? Does she have a career and skills or is she mainly a love interest as well?

[Starry]

1 hour ago, WindofChange said:

Welcome to the board!

Thanks :)

1 hour ago, WindofChange said:

The problem here is that the characters are the writing. They're defined by it. Having no friends and no job is incredibly sad regardless of how you see it. And if there are no stories that the writers think is important for Iris as well as the show then maybe she just doesn't belong on the show.

It's not that hard to have Iris say that she is working on an article, or meeting with a few friends once in a while, it takes the least amount of effort so it's difficult to say that she has a life outside of Barry because the show has never alluded to it. Also the fact that Candice Patton said that all Iris needs in her life is Barry is pretty indicative that she has nothing else going on in her life, nor does she need anything to be going on in her life... which again is kind of pathetic and can be easily rectified with a few changes in dialogue.

 

I disagree. If Iris doesn't belong on the show then the show can be canceled for all I care. I too want more for Iris but this is The Flash. It's Barry's story. If the most important person in the Flash's life doesn't belong in there then I don't know what to say about the revolving door of redundant scientists and metas.

Nowhere was it said that Iris has no job. I think she also mentioned CCPN in one of the latest episodes but I have to go back and check to be 100% sure. The fact is that "Iris has no job", "Why is she always at STAR Labs?" have been the talking points of her detractors long before s4. Iris saying "I am working on an article" won't change anything because her job still wouldn't push forward the narrative. Having her say that she quit would take no effort either so why didn't the script mention it if that is what we are supposed take away from the story?

Candice never said that? If you are talking about the interview she gave at the DC in D.C. event the question was about the wedding, not Iris' life in general. She said that it didn't matter how the wedding went down (interrupted, impromptu...), marrying Barry was what mattered. Unless you mean a different interview? Candice also headcanoned that Iris is still a reporter and that she hopes journalism can become a part of the story again.

As for the friends thing, I agree that it's sad but Iris married her BFF. She's also not the only one who suffers from this. If she's sad and pathetic so are the other Flash characters. If Barry had married Caitlin who would be at her bachelorette party? Barry's friend Iris? Barry's friend Felicity*? Joe's girlfriend Cecile? Amunet?

* I don't buy that Felicity and Caitlin are friends when we've seen them talk two times.

1 hour ago, WindofChange said:

I honestly don't think I can buy that Iris believes in the cause. If Iris believed that her blog was genuinely helping, why did she stop? It's not like she doesn't have time.

The only time we saw Iris talk about why she's now a member of Team Flash is because she thought that's what Barry would've wanted in 401, that she kept running because of him. She never voiced this season that she wants to help people by helping Team Flash, that she wants to do something with her life, that being a part of the team gives her life meaning. So it's hard to really believe she believes in the cause when she never voiced it.

She didn't stop writing. It was her blog that gave her the job at CCPN. The point is that certain things aren't mentioned if they aren't plot-relevant. Right now, Iris' journalism isn't plot-relevant. What she mentioned in the past seasons doesn't become less valid because she isn't reiterating the same point in s4. Iris mentioned Barry as her motivation in the premiere because he was gone, that was the plot. As I have said in my previous post, Iris had kept the team together even when Barry was alive and well and had gone solo at the start of s2.

1 hour ago, WindofChange said:

Which is really another problem the show created in her validity as team leader. Cisco/Caitlin/Wally/Joe didn't listen to her even though she's team leader. The show did a massive disservice to Iris taking on the role as team leader because it's not really believable that this is what she wants to do when she's never shown any interest in it in prior seasons. They should've primed her for this role in season 3, built that respect between her and the team members... but instead they just damseled her most of the season while everyone else tried to find ways to save her.

No doubt Iris is smart and level-headed. This role is just not believable for her because there was no build up to her taking on that role.

I disagree that she hasn't shown any interest. She has shown interest in the cause. However, I do agree that team leader is not the ideal role for her character. She's not the wrong person to lead the team but I would rather see a change of scenery. The writers need to do better than what they did in the past seasons though. Because team leader is definitely better than sidelined reporter.

Edit:

Okay in the interview posted Candice states:

Quote

"In the comic books, she is a reporter, and that's kind of how we started on the show, and I think it's ultimately how we should have continued,".

and

Quote

"I think she should go back to being a reporter at some point,".

How does that prove that she's fine with being just a "cheerleader" for the team and Barry?? Of course, she's never going to say "The writers suck. I hate this role!!", but she's made it clear what she wants Iris to be, and it's reporter.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Starry

[Primal Slayer]

Krypton bringing in Brainiac right off the bat

[Starfish35]

DCLegendsTV has pics for Legends #313 "No Country For Old Dads", including first pics of Wally on the Waverider.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Starfish35
Removing stray apostrophe