Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[LeighAn]

Hey Oliver had her prozethetic arm and all her creations so I'm going with it being his hood. 

It looked like it in side by side comparisons I saw.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

... But seeing Felicity killed before the credits just turned me off entirely.  Even when MG gives me what I want, he has the ability to ruin in as I get it.  ...

Like I said, Guggenheim's gotta Guggenheim.

[Mellowyellow]

oh the fanfic this will spawn! Someone please sift through it and recommend if anything good comes up!

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

 

Did Thea show up or was she just mentioned?

Just a mention.

I love Felicity.  But even I knew that this wasn't going to be more than a cameo, and that she would probably die. At least she died a fucking hero and it was quick.

I had no issues with it. Well other than I saw more of how she looked in her costume in the artwork than in the actual episode.

And it can't be said or emphasized enough: Guggenheim is a douchetastic-rat bastard prick of a dickish ASSHOLE FUCKTARD. ????

[bijoux]

If anyone finds her scene, would they post them here?

[SmallScreenDiva]

34 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Aw, they put in Rory there. 

Did Thea show up or was she just mentioned?

Just mentioned. In this reality, everything is hunky-dory between her and Malcolm (ugh!)

[catrox14]

Damn. That was disturbing :(. I didn't like it Sara killing Felicity:(. 

What pisses me off is that she jumped and broke her ankle which is the only reason they caught her. I was surprised she didn't have another trick up her sleeve.

Also Felicity's hood looked remarkably like Oliver's. My head canon is that she was the Purple Arrow.

[Thundercatmary]

Will/Does Sara remember anything that happened in this world?

Im ok with it since I know it's not real and Felicity is fine, but I would feel bad for Sara if she has that memory of killing "Felicity."

I haven't watched it yet but I will. :)

[EmilyBettFan]

46 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

oh the fanfic this will spawn! Someone please sift through it and recommend if anything good comes up!

I can't wait for Fan art Friday! 

[bijoux]

I found Felicity's scenes on Twitter and my one complaint is that I wish there had actually been a fight.

[Proteus]

32 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

Will/Does Sara remember anything that happened in this world?

Im ok with it since I know it's not real and Felicity is fine, but I would feel bad for Sara if she has that memory of killing "Felicity."

I haven't watched it yet but I will. :)

They remember everything.

[bijoux]

Oh hell. That's gonna be awkward come next year's crossover.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Marc is sexist. It's no news to anyone except him that still thinks of himself as a ally to women and minorities.

I'm still watching Arrow because I got attached to the show but I wouldn't start watching another show I knew was produced by people I don't consider particularly talented. 

[BkWurm1]

I really hope people don't actually hold a grudge against LoT.  Felicity got to be awesome and set the tone for the whole episode.   It's not like she was singled out.  ALL the other heroes were killed.  Only the Legends were kept around so Eobard could mess with them. And as much a Dick as MG might be, they didn't even specifically write it for Felicity to die, per the article they had the sequence written (Amaya and Sara chasing down the hero and killing on DD's command) before they ever thought of Felicity.  So there's no malice behind any of it.

I did laugh at how perceptive Caity was about people being upset.  MG would have done well to listen to her there and at least not be surprised about the ire likely to come his way.  But except for that dig about "a character like her"   (Which you know he won't even understand why it's a dig) I really can't be upset about any of it.  It totally works for the episode.  Context is everything.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

Oh I don't hold a grudge against that show..just seeing how things are going on Arrow I wouldn't choose to start a new show produced by the same people. I'm in too deep with Arrow now but I can learn from my mistake, LOL.

[ladylaw99]

It is too bad MG opened his big mouth, I quite enjoyed the episode.  I really miss Sara on Arrow but I am glad she can be the kick-ass fighter that she always was on Arrow.  This is the type of fighter Arrow let slip away because of a stupid comic-book name. I will forever be bitter.

[strikera0]

19 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

It is too bad MG opened his big mouth, I quite enjoyed the episode.  I really miss Sara on Arrow but I am glad she can be the kick-ass fighter that she always was on Arrow.  This is the type of fighter Arrow let slip away because of a stupid comic-book name. I will forever be bitter.

She is a much better fighter on LOT than she ever was on Arrow. On LOT, she's actually allowed to win fights. On Arrow, she always ended up getting knocked down because she wasn't allowed to upstage Oliver. Nobody is! Just look at what this show has done to Nyssa Al Ghul. Nyssa is a brilliant and lethal criminal mastermind in the comics (she gained control of the LOA by killing her own father) but on Arrow, they turned her into a wuss who had to beg Oliver to fight her battles for her. It's a joke. 

[JenMD]

4 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Oh I don't hold a grudge against that show..just seeing how things are going on Arrow I wouldn't choose to start a new show produced by the same people. I'm in too deep with Arrow now but I can learn from my mistake, LOL.

Same.  I actually vowed back before LOT was even announced that I would never again watch a project that MG was attached to.  I think he is that terrible a writer/producer/showrunner.  Although, I will always be glad that Sara is alive and well out there the in the Flarrowverse, even if I don't watch the show.

[statsgirl]

Yes, I think they took DD from a time before he got married and had a child so he didn't have the weakness of mourning them.

So in just over one hour, they killed Caitlin, Felicity and Amaya.  (I'm not saying fridged because it was for my pain, not a man's.)  Is this a new record for killing women who matter?

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Really, they shouldn't have hyped Felicity's cameo up so much. It would have worked better if her being there was a surprise, so Felicity fans didn't come over just to watch their favorite die. That's pretty shitty, but I blame MG, not LoT.  His constant need to piss off his own fans is just baffling.

To quote Felicity on Oliver's need to invite people to dinner parties "Oh my god, it's like a thing with you. You just can't help yourself'.

(I may have got the wording wrong but the idea fits.)

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Hey Oliver had her prozethetic arm and all her creations so I'm going with it being his hood.

It may be she's wearing his hood to honour him (sad fanfic!) but this is a completely different world than the episode last season.

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

Quote

They remember everything.

Oh hell. That's gonna be awkward come next year's crossover.

Sara may remember, but the writers will forget. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by statsgirl

[Guest]

I'd love it if Felicity was wearing Oliver's hood. I have to admit it does look like it in the pictures and it's totally something Felicity would do. She knew how important it was to Oliver. *cries a little*

I'm still annoyed by MG's comments yesterday though. Like, this is a universe where there's a shark with abs running around Central City wearing pants and where both a lawyer and tech inventor (or whatever the hell Curtis does) suited up with no training whatsoever but suddenly Felicity suiting up is silly? LOL Marc, check yourself! 

I saw on twitter someone ask why Felicity is defined by "nevers" and I completely agree. Why is Felicity the only one with limitations on what she can do? Comic canon can choke!

Edited March 29, 2017 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I saw on twitter someone ask why Felicity is defined by "nevers" and I completely agree. Why is Felicity the only one with limitations on what she can do? Comic canon can choke!

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show's own canon all it takes to start the journey is the desire to help and a willingness to do whatever it takes to do that. Ray had no skills, but built a suit. Laurel was a lawyer with a few self-defense classes, and she decided to get the training. Curtis sat behind a desk just like Felicity does - he had some Olympic athletic ability, but that hasn't proven particularly useful in not getting his ass beat, but he's still considered a "hero." Evelyn was A FREAKING HIGH-SCHOOL STUDENT. Seriously, explain to me why Felicity  donning a suit would be the one to make it look silly. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show's own canon all it takes to start the journey is the desire to help and a willingness to do whatever it takes to do that. Ray had no skills, but built a suit. Laurel was a lawyer with a few self-defense classes, and she decided to get the training. Curtis sat behind a desk just like Felicity does - he had some Olympic athletic ability, but that hasn't proven particularly useful in not getting his ass beat, but he's still considered a "hero." Evelyn was A FREAKING HIGH-SCHOOL STUDENT. Seriously, explain to me why Felicity  donning a suit would be the one to make it look silly. 

Yeah, same. Maybe my outrage seems a bit dumb considering I've never needed Felicity to mask up but I'm annoyed by what his comments represent. It seems like everyone else can mask up except Felicity. And the only difference I'm seeing is that she's not comic canon so she's not allowed. RAGE.

[Chaser]

I didn't have a problem with her cameo, I didn't have a problem with MG saying a suit would diminish Felicity, but Holy Hell Batman that last line pissed me off.

That And the whole narrative of Felicity being a SuperHero on LOT, implying she wasn't one in Arrow just UGH. Shut up.

[Cleanqueen]

I liked it and I liked her dying even more because she was literally the last hero standing, can you get any more epic than that. Her dignity was still in tact and she wasnt begging for mercy.

I do think we will see this version of her again, I never even thought it was possible in the first place but it will certainly make an appearance in the future.

I don't want the Felicity Smoak on Arrow to wear this costume but I still want her out on the field on missions and kick some ass. It's established that she can do it so it will be fun to see her do it.

I get what Marc's point but as usual their wordings are so damn annoying.

[ladylaw99]

1 hour ago, strikera0 said:

She is a much better fighter on LOT than she ever was on Arrow. On LOT, she's actually allowed to win fights. On Arrow, she always ended up getting knocked down because she wasn't allowed to upstage Oliver. Nobody is! Just look at what this show has done to Nyssa Al Ghul. Nyssa is a brilliant and lethal criminal mastermind in the comics (she gained control of the LOA by killing her own father) but on Arrow, they turned her into a wuss who had to beg Oliver to fight her battles for her. It's a joke. 

I agree.  I just miss Sara on Arrow because of what we were left with but you are right she was allowed to hold her own.

[Delphi]

I watched and it wasn't as bad as I thought,  though I admit to closing my eyes at the snap part because I did not need to see that. 

Honestly though,  the line really pisses me off,  not because I want Felicity in a mask,  I don't,  but her mask looks better than most.   It's more because Felicity is so capable.   I'm reasonably sure that she could best Team Flash if they didn't have powers (or Cisco currently).  She could have taken pre training Thea or Rory.   She's a highly intelligent,  highly capable woman and I don't think MG appreciates her nearly enough. 

[Hiveminder]

If MG, WM, anyone involved with the writing/producing of this show could just shut the hell up and leave the promotion to the actors things would go so much better for them. 

[Velocity23]

Wow .... Tuesday ratings

Edited March 29, 2017 by Velocity23

[statsgirl]

Interesting that for The Flash, the 18 - 49 is 0,8 while the 25 - 54 is 1.0  Flash is skewing to the oldsters.

[wonderwall]

:)

[apinknightmare]

No soda for you, Flash!

[Cleanqueen]

I think Arrow season 4 might have been getting these ratings post hiatus as well...that must suck for flash since they were always between 1.3-1.4 last year

[leopardprint]

Question for those of you keeping track of the ratings across the shows. It seems like the two major arguments for the cause of Arrow ratings drop are the Olicity breakup or LL's death. My (tenuous) understanding is you guys are saying that Flash is displaying a similar downward trend. Could there be a more general explanation that people just get sick of comic book shows around mid S4 especially since these production teams love to reuse storylines and there is general oversaturation of superhero shows anyway? Thanks!

Edited March 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, leopardprint said:

Could there be a more general explanation that people just get sick of comic book shows around mid S4 especially since these production teams love to reuse storylines and there is general oversaturation of superhero shows anyway? Thanks!

Honestly I feel like the reason why Arrow/Flash dropped was because of bad writing. The vibe I've been getting from reviewers/other comment sections is that Flash this season has been underwhelming/nonsensical/overall badly written. It's the same vibe I got for Arrow in 4B.

[leopardprint]

I wonder if they write to attract more general audience S1/S2 then go full throttle comic book nonsense and that's bleeding everyone but the diehards. Thanks for answering.

Edited March 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[way2interested]

Just now, leopardprint said:

I wonder if they write to attract more general audience S1/S2 then go full throttle comic book nonsense and that's bleeding everyone but the diehards. Thanks for answering.

I mean, that could be said for any show really, attracting general audience in s1/s2 and then try to "shake things up" in s3 that audiences don't respond to, although I think I think a factor might be a diminishing marginal utility on all of the shows together, which even the Marvel Netflix shows are starting to suffer/are suffering from this.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I agree. I think it's more likely viewers get tired of a show because it stops entertaining them in general, not for a factor in particular. Anyway until last year The Flash was really stable. It returned a bit down and keeps dropping this season..

For Arrow it's true there was a big drop between 15 and 16, right after the break up, but it's also true that there was a long break between the two episodes. It also went up a bit the episode after LL's death but then it went down again, then up again..after episode 15 it seems they weren't able to get part of their audience back but who knows what the main reason might be.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm no expert, but I'd say the drop in Flash could be a result of the show runners lying Quelle Surprise! NOT! about how season three would return to the lighter, fun show it was in the first season, instead of gloom and doom and perpetual angst. Yet, here we are, with Barry, Joe, Wally, Cisco, Caitlin, trying to change the future because Iris is murdered in front of Barry by Savitar. Yep, that's sunshine and rainbows all right. Then there was the statement LIES that Kreisberg made about wanting to do Flash because it was a contrast to Arrow--a light to its darkness, a much brighter/lighter show. Yeah, sure. For the first half of the first season, maybe.

There was just no need for it to become this dark and gloomy, angsty show. No need for death to be hanging over a co-lead's head. The show could have still have Flash fight crime, but still be a light-hearted, funny show. Especially since Kreisberg cherry picked Comic!Wally West's personality traits to put into Grant Gustin's Barry Allen.

[JJ928]

In my mind they're dropping because of the misuse and mistreatment of Iris.

and yes, I know that's not how ratings work but that's my fan brain reasoning. lol

[lemotomato]

What was weird to me about Arrow's ratings drop in season 4 was that it premiered with higher ratings than season 3, maintained them, came back from winter hiatus (6 weeks off) with ratings equal to the midwinter finale, and held steady right up until episode 16, when the bottom fell out. Flash this season has hit series lows several times even in the fall, when ratings tend to be higher. So I don't think that the ratings situation for Flash season 3 and Arrow season 4 are all that similar.

Also: as bad as the drop was in 4B, Arrow's average ratings were only 8% lower than season 3. Flash is currently 22% lower than last year.

Edited March 29, 2017 by lemotomato

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

In my mind they're dropping because of the misuse and mistreatment of Iris.

and yes, I know that's not how ratings work but that's my fan brain reasoning. lol

That too.

[leopardprint]

Haha, I also tried to watch Flash solely because of Iris but I gave up in S1. 

[tv echo]

Felicity's costume and mask look green to me - in fact, that does look like Oliver's GA hood and her costume kinda looks like a female version of his suit (a regular girl wears an ex's old shirt, but Felicity wears an ex's superhero costume)...

 

Larger version of above tweeted pic...

Dead superheroes - Ragman, Black Canary, Wild Dog, Vigilante, Green Arrow, The Flash, Spartan...

Video of Felicity's entire appearance in LoT 216 last night (posted by Dc Plus Marvel on youtube)...

Edited March 29, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I assume the same is true for the related Flash novel...

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, JJ928 said:

In my mind they're dropping because of the misuse and mistreatment of Iris.

 

I'd think this too but that'd mean they'd have had to changed how they've written Iris and I'm not sure they really have?

[tv echo]

FWIW - this is in regard to MG's comment in that EW article (posted upthread)...

Quote

Some seem to think Marc is calling Felicity as a superhero silly and are upset by it. That was not my impression. There are two separate thoughts in that sentence. First, Marc is saying Felicity Smoak doesn’t need to wear a mask to be a hero. It diminishes the character to think so because she already is a hero.
The second thought is where the word “silly” comes into play. Marc is saying if they put every character in a mask then it makes the concept of superheroes silly. (Or sillier wink wink). 
So, he was NOT saying Felicity Smoak as a masked superhero is silly. I did run my impression of the article past Marc, because I didn’t want to speak for him, and he said I was correct. That’s exactly what he meant. 

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/158969008378/legends-of-tomorrow-boss-cast-on-that-shocking

I think that ship sailed in Arrow S3. It also doesn't explain Evelyn, Curtis, Cisco, etc. in masks.

[SleepDeprived]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Dead superheroes - Ragman, Black Canary, Wild Dog, Vigilante, Green Arrow, The Flash, Spartan...

 

Uh, maybe it's just the lighting tricking me but why does Ragman's head gear kinda look like there are actual eyes and a mouth on it? Is his rags just on a bust that Darhk, for some reason, put googly eyes on and drew a lip over or is that Ragman's actual head? I've forgotten but wasn't Ragman's costume "bonded" to the wearer? Does that mean no one can use/remove the rags except the person it was bonded to, ergo, that might be his actual... head?

Also, Starling City should really look into Darhk's misuse of funds for that Dead Superhero Shrine of his. He's going to need to buy a new head bust for Felicity's mask, too, since that's just an empty stand next to Diggle's Spartan helmet.

[tangerine95]

Well they already made it silly by putting everyone in costumes, Felicity and Lance are basically the only ones left that aren't masked fighters. And they have unbelievably low standards for what it takes to be a mask, I mean Curtis is a horrible fighter, they make note of that on the show but he keeps going because comics, Laurel was a 30 year old lawyer with self defense classes who took boxing lessons and a few months to be LoA level, Ray sucks at fighting but it was okay for him to build a suit to be in the field. So I don't see why that's not silly and Felicity is the limit if the reason isn't because comics which they swear they don't go by. 

I actually agree they shouldn't make Felicity another mask and take away what makes her unique so I'm glad they won't do that. But the way MG talks about it is annoying. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by tangerine95

[Midnight Lullaby]

53 minutes ago, tv echo said:

FWIW - this is in regard to MG's comment in that EW article (posted upthread)...

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/158969008378/legends-of-tomorrow-boss-cast-on-that-shocking

I think that ship sailed in Arrow S3. It also doesn't explain Evelyn, Curtis, Cisco, etc. in masks.

That's exactly what she did with the spoilers she got for the beginning of the season. She told him a bunch of stuff, all her ideas, he said "yeah" and it became MG's original thoughts. More than that. She said he confirmed the wedding! LOL.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby