Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[calliope1975]

It appears there are no doppelgangers on Kara's Earth, but I would have loved a throwaway line that her Felicity Smoak is the head of an international biomedical company or Oliver Queen is a frequently shirtless actor on the WC. 

[wonderwall]

This is an interesting review by Alan Sepinwall

The Flash Invasion Crossover Review

Quote

So this led to the Barry/Oliver scene at the Hall of Justice where Oliver suggested that any superhero would have given into the temptation to do what Barry did, and that because the world is full of people who make choices that affect other people, Barry’s no more to blame for the death of Cisco’s brother or the non-existence of Sara Diggle than if he hadn’t gone back in time at all. Which is all nonsense. Barry screwed up. Barry’s an idiot. He’s been an idiot for a long time now, and the way for The Flash to move past that isn’t by trying to handwave away his idiocy as ultimately harmless, but by having him stop behaving idiotically and/or by having him do something so brave, so noble, and so self-sacrificing that it allows Cisco, Caitlin, and the audience to move past the dumb things he’s done in the past. I want to like Barry, because he’s a good character and Grant Gustin is so inherently likable, but there’s work to be done, and not exactly the kind we got tonight from Oliver.

http://uproxx.com/sepinwall/the-flash-invasion-crossover-review/

[Starfish35]

Uproxx? Is Sepinwall not writing for Hitfix anymore?

ETA:  Never mind, apparently Hitfix is part of Uproxx. Not sure if this is a new development or whether it's always been that way.

Anyway, yes, I agree.  But this is the same thing they did with Oliver and lying to Felicity, having other characters excuse the hero for the choices he's made.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

My personal favorite was Freaking Supergirl just standing there when the aliens killed the President. WTF?!

 

She barely managed to save the President on her earth when she was under attack (the Secret Service did NOT have a good day though) so wasn't too surprised here, lol, though, yes, please next time save first, chit chat later.  

22 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

So this led to the Barry/Oliver scene at the Hall of Justice where Oliver suggested that any superhero would have given into the temptation to do what Barry did, and that because the world is full of people who make choices that affect other people, Barry’s no more to blame for the death of Cisco’s brother or the non-existence of Sara Diggle than if he hadn’t gone back in time at all. Which is all nonsense.

One correction, it was back at Star Labs, not the Hanger of Justice (I did enjoy seeing it each time though) but Oliver's speech equating normal choices with Barry choosing to abuse his huge amount of power is nonsense.

 Yes, anyone would be TEMPTED to go back and save their loved ones no matter the cost and if they thought they could do it with no obvious harm, I think anyone would go through with it, but Barry already knew time travel caused a heap of a lot of problems so for him to do it was way bigger than any other average choice, BUT I honestly felt that Oliver's defense of Barry and even his overly simplified view in the pep talk was about getting the whole team back on the same page since last time when they were fighting Vandal Savage, it took a united team with no distractions to accomplish there mission.

Oliver seemed just as upset as everyone else was later when he first heard what Barry did but it was not the time so he wanted it kept secret.  That seemed to me his driving force behind trying to keep the team from splintering and then trying to get Barry from slipping into a  pit of pity and self doubt.  They needed Barry and they needed each other so Oliver was going to say what he needed to say to fix it.  

I mean, he probably wasn't lying about the risks he'd be willing to take to save his family but Oliver has always weighed the risks and he'll risk himself every time, but he doesn't do that to others so easily, so no I don't believe Oliver would have made the same choice as Barry, but he has made other really stupid choices with far reaching consequences and yeah, he's had to live with them and again, now was not the time to fall apart, no matter what mistake was made.  So that's the viewpoint that I took.  That Oliver just didn't have time to worry about the details of wrong or right, it just was and Barry had to find a way to let the guilt go.  

At least right now.  

Quote

First 30 minutes sucked, 2nd half was pretty good.

I personally enjoyed the whole thing, the first half almost more actually.  I had avoided the preview clips so all that stuff was just candy covered delight for me. It moved so fast though that I had to rewatch several scenes immediately because I was missing stuff.  Blink and the show flipped to something else but using the rewind, I was able to appreciate all the nuances.  I could watch a whole hour of three shows worth of people reacting to stuff a few of them say or do.    

Edited November 30, 2016 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

I think if Flashpoint had been the first time Barry had gone back in time, I would cut him so much more slack. The mistake was the multiple people who told him not to do it - including his own freaking self - and his previous experience he had with time travel. He already knew it was wrong and would have consequences, and he did it anyway. That's what I can't get over. Fingers crossed he really has learned his lesson and doesn't do it again. 

[popgoesculture]

This was my first time watching the Arrow characters in a couple of weeks, and it was oddly delightful to see them minus their baggage (I'm sure I'll change my mind tomorrow night). It reminded me for a hot minute why I liked some of these characters in the first place, particularly with them away from the dour, nonsensical plot machinations of Arrow. (Not that the plot in the crossover was much better -- Barry, you're the worst, and if Oliver is trying to tell you everyone makes mistakes, that's a BIG sign you messed up -- but still.) 

I wish there could be a crossover of just the women of all these shows. Maybe we'd have some character progression without them having to prop the men around them up. 

Random: I was greatly amused by Felicity holding an umbrella over herself and Mick in the last scene. I wish we had some interaction between Kara, Mick, and Felicity as they try to parse each other's intentions/histories. 

[tarotx]

My favorite part of the Flash tonight was a small background moment. Sara going up and talking to Felicity. It's because Sara wasn't allowed to talk to anyone other than Laurel last season on Arrow and I remember that Sara and Felicity were friend(ly)s. 

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Did I miss Mick getting knocked out during that final fight or did he just disappear at one point? Because didn't Barry lure away Firestorm, Atom and Kara, while Oliver fought Thea, Diggle and Sara? 

Didn't Barry actually make off with him and then the flying team members followed them to the roof? I just assumed Heatwave was puking his guts out during the fighting.

40 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

Random: I was greatly amused by Felicity holding an umbrella over herself and Mick in the last scene. I wish we had some interaction between Kara, Mick, and Felicity as they try to parse each other's intentions/histories. 

This was one of my favorite random moments as well. Also Sara turning into an embarassed mom when Mick was mouthing off Supergirl. Were my eyes deceiving me or was she wearing a crap ton of rings in that scene? Commemorating Laurel? Keeping to the sartorial note, Iris' outfit was giving me real Pretty Woman flashbacks.

I thought it was heaps of fun even if parts of it were dumb. 

[looptab]

Yeah, Sara is overdoing the rings too.

By the  way, I didn't watch ep 7 of Flash, so how come Cisco is all pissed again at Barry when he had gotten over his brother's death after ep 2?

[Starfish35]

I think maybe I just had my expectations up too high. :(  But I didn't end up enjoying it as much as I'd hoped to. It seemed like most of the fun parts were already out there in promos and clips. 

I think part of it also is that it just highlighted for me all the reasons I'm not watching The Flash this season.  I'm just not here for Team Flash and brooding angst.  Yes, theoretically I'm glad Barry isn't getting off scott free for what he did in Flashpoint (and I don't agree with Oliver trying to absolve him).  But that doesn't make it enjoyable to watch depressed Barry and angry bitter Cisco (and then there's whoever the hell Tom Cavanaugh is playing this year, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with Flashpoint).  So....yeah.  That kinda pulled the whole thing down for me.  

Iris really didn't have anything to do except play scolding mom to Wally, and what is up with lying to him to "protect" him? I would think after being on the other side of that situation in season one, she wouldn't want to be doing the same thing herself. 

And Sara!  Sara I love you, but after your actions toward Darhk, you have no room to be throwing any stones.  

And maybe I would understand this better if I'd been watching The Flash this season, but I don't understand why Caitlin getting powers has resulted in this apparent split personality issue.  

I guess I was just really excited about this and now I just feel kind of let down. :(

[tarotx]

Sara hasn't killed Damian and when she had a real chance she didn't kill him. And the reason she hasn't is she had her team to back her up because they care about her. Barry's friends have encouraged him to time travel and chance the past. Yes that was season one but still Barry has reason to believe his friends would go with the flow. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by tarotx
This small little post was loaded with errors >.<

[Starfish35]

No she didn't kill him, but she told him his future, and we have yet to see what the consequences of that will be.   I mean, I'm not angry at Sara.  I understood why she did what she did.  But that said, I still don't think her getting her back up in self-righteous indignation was a good look on her.  Barry was wrong, but Sara's moral high ground is rather shaky for her to be the one calling Barry out on it.

[yellowfred]

Yeah, I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I felt like a lot of the reactions to finding out about Flashpoint were driven more by the plot (i.e. needing Oliver to be the only one really in Barry's corner) than by realistic characterizations.  Even Diggle, who I think had every right to be angry with Barry, isn't usually the type to let something like that distract him from the task at hand.

[tarotx]

7 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

No she didn't kill him, but she told him his future, and we have yet to see what the consequences of that will be.   I mean, I'm not angry at Sara.  I understood why she did what she did.  But that said, I still don't think her getting her back up in self-righteous indignation was a good look on her.  Barry was wrong, but Sara's moral high ground is rather shaky for her to be the one calling Barry out on it.

 

 

 

I think the fact that she has been where he is makes what she said understandable, Maybe not the passion she said it but Barry got to change his past and Laurel is still dead. Sara was hurt and angry. Plus someone had to mention Laurel cause if it would have been Oliver twitter would have been annoyed....

My issue with Sara going at Barry wasn't about her being a hypocrite - it's that Barry is pretty much (or completely) a stranger to Sara so it felt odd. While, Stein, Jax and Ray are not. It felt rude of her. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by tarotx

[bijoux]

24 minutes ago, yellowfred said:

Yeah, I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I felt like a lot of the reactions to finding out about Flashpoint were driven more by the plot (i.e. needing Oliver to be the only one really in Barry's corner) than by realistic characterizations.  Even Diggle, who I think had every right to be angry with Barry, isn't usually the type to let something like that distract him from the task at hand.

Plus, they needed set up for tonight's part of the crossover. That's why Sara also needed to mention Laurel.

[BkWurm1]

58 minutes ago, looptab said:

Yeah, Sara is overdoing the rings too.

By the  way, I didn't watch ep 7 of Flash, so how come Cisco is all pissed again at Barry when he had gotten over his brother's death after ep 2?

Cisco finally forgave Barry for not being willing to go back in time and save Dante , but now he found out that before Barry went back in time, his brother was not dead.  Thus he's back to hating Barry.  He's also pissed that Barry didn't tell them about all the changes in the timeline despite all of them telling Barry they didn't want to know.  I'm not really feeling Cisco's viewpoint this time around.  

50 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

 

And maybe I would understand this better if I'd been watching The Flash this season, but I don't understand why Caitlin getting powers has resulted in this apparent split personality issue.  

I guess I was just really excited about this and now I just feel kind of let down. :(

Caitlin getting powers that make her evil has come with ZERO explanation.  Watching would not have helped.  

Quote

 Keeping to the sartorial note, Iris' outfit was giving me real Pretty Woman flashbacks

Ha!  I had the same reaction.  A rather odd outfit choice for the setting.  

Edited November 30, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Caitlin getting powers that make her evil has come with ZERO explanation.  Watching would not have helped.  

Greaaaaat. :(  

[Mellowyellow]

Was Ray carrying a sandwich in the introduction scene. So cute!

[BkWurm1]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

Was Ray carrying a sandwich in the introduction scene. So cute!

Felicity had one in her hand and Mick was actually eating his, lol.  I wonder if Ray packed lunch again.  

[looptab]

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Cisco finally forgave Barry for not being willing to go back in time and save Dante , but now he found out that before Barry went back in time, his brother was not dead.  Thus he's back to hating Barry.  He's also pissed that Barry didn't tell them about all the changes in the timeline despite all of them telling Barry they didn't want to know.  I'm not really feeling Cisco's viewpoint this time around.  

Thank you. I thought both he and Caitlin knew what was different already.

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Felicity had one in her hand and Mick was actually eating his, lol.  I wonder if Ray packed lunch again.  

I feel like they cut a scene I'd  rather they had left in instead of Wally's bitching.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I feel like they cut a scene I'd  rather they had left in instead of Wally's bitching.

Lol. There are probably a lot of extras on the cutting room floor.  

 I wish that they'd drop the attempt to make the crossover episodes still take on current story lines when they don't actually move the crossover story line forward.  They always feel out of place and always leave some characters out of the fun of the crossover.  Nods to ongoing stuff should be limited to a couple lines at most, like Caitlin not using her powers.  

They should have written it as Wally agreeing (insincerely) that it was too soon to go out in the field and then the entire West family would have been free to participate in other ways during the crossover.  He still could have run out to help and gotten knocked out, thus proving he really shouldn't be out there, but at least it wouldn't have eaten up as much time and I wouldn't have to be annoyed that Iris was sidelined to parenting her brother.   

[bijoux]

On the other hand, what would they have had Iris doing if she wasn't parenting Wally? Honest question, because nothing comes to mind.

Tumblr just reminded me of this excellent moment.

[EmilyBettFan]

LOL Diggle! 

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I wish that they'd drop the attempt to make the crossover episodes still take on current story lines when they don't actually move the crossover story line forward.  They always feel out of place and always leave some characters out of the fun of the crossover.  Nods to ongoing stuff should be limited to a couple lines at most, like Caitlin not using her powers.   

I completely 100% agree with this.  The Flashpoint drama, Stein finding out he has a daughter now.... I just think all that stuff is better served on the individual shows.  Like sticking Oliver's baby mama drama in the middle of last year's crossover.  It was far from the only thing wrong with it, but it certainly didn't help.

Of course, as far as Flashpoint goes, as far as I'm concerned that has just ruined a good (albeit far from flawless) show.  They've written themselves into a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation, and it's their own fault.  No one wants to see Barry continue to get away with selfishly and thoughtlessly screwing up other people's lives, but where is the fun in watching him continually get flogged for it, or walk around all depressed?  Or Cisco, who was one of the light spots of the show, being all angry and bitter?  Not that he doesn't have reason, but I don't want to watch that. *shrugs*  I don't know what they were thinking.   

[bijoux]

  

  

  

  

[looptab]

Couple things: the introduction of Thea was weirdly set up. One moment Felicity says she called her, the next she says she had come to drop some documents - and why at the loft, I wonder. Does Thea know Oliver doesn't live there anymore?

Felicity's pout when she finds out that Caitlin has powers is the best, haha.

[bijoux]

22 minutes ago, looptab said:

Couple things: the introduction of Thea was weirdly set up. One moment Felicity says she called her, the next she says she had come to drop some documents - and why at the loft, I wonder. Does Thea know Oliver doesn't live there anymore?

It's best not to think about it too much. If you do, you realize they take her up on her offer too lightly. She's been out of commission for half a year now, meaning she's not at her best, making her a liability.

 

Storyboards for The Flash: https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/803846959178117120

[doesntworkonwood]

I think it was an okay episode. I only watch Arrow and I therefore only care about the characters on Arrow, I didn't care for much of the story. This is my only meeting with Wally and I could have done without his whinging. I think that was the worst part of the episode, and it really made me glad I stopped watching The Flash since halfway through season 1. 

[Sakura12]

I really wish we didn't waste time on Wally's whining since he's been doing it all season. First it was because he wanted powers really really badly, then it's now that he powers no one wants his help. Probably because you suck Wally, having powers doesn't suddenly make you a great person. The message these shows are trying to tell are horrible. Real heroes do things because it's right not because they want everyone to adore them and chant hero at them. 

Caitlin being the only one with a split personality associated with her powers is also dumb. Especially when they have an actual comic story that makes sense. In the comics Caitlin becomes Killer Frost because she needs the heat of others to keep her body temperature normal, she needs to kill to survive almost like a vampire. Then because they have science magic they could've brought her back to their side by making some kind of heat tech she can wear that gives her the heat she craves or something. 

I really think they didn't think the whole Flashpoint storyline through and just went with because it happened in the comics. There storyline is a mess now and the repetitiveness of some people mad at Barry like they should be and the others telling Barry it's not his fault and everyone should love him is getting annoying. I know people are saying GG being adorable helps them, but that doesn't do anything for me. A person's actions and how they they handle responsibility can make them very unattractive. Barry's a terrible leader, I don't know why anyone would choose him. How does getting people together mean you should lead? That just means you had one good idea. I hope Arrow's episode is better (although having to see Laurel again taints it) because so far this Crossover is very much for because comics and not for regular fans. 

[Morrigan2575]

I didn't have a problem with Wally last night. However, I found Iris both annoying and pointless. Is that all she does now? Give Barry pep talks and mother's Wally?

[Chaser]

I was bored. I tuned out normal Flash stuff so I basically tuned out a lot of stuff. 

Bigger is not always better. I think what made the first crossover successful was the character interactions. The different personalities working together. Watching the crews work with the others vibe. There was no baggage, no spin offs to prop. Fun. 

The next crossover got bigger but suffered from having to set up LOT and BMD. 

This one... I'm not encouraged by this episode. It's big and loud but it's not gelling. I have a feeling it's going to be like watching six episodes instead of three. Each episode divided into crossover and regular viewing. I don't want to have to tune out half of every episode. 

[Cleanqueen]

I liked the episode, it did feel like a crossover however I did miss the small intimate moments the previous crossovers especially the first one offered. 

And since it was a flash episode, I found it odd Barry and Iris didn't even share a single moment. A kiss a hug, anything. These two haven't been intimate since episode 3 it seems.

[ladylaw99]

I have't watched the Flash since season 1 and I don't miss it at all.

49 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I didn't have a problem with Wally last night. However, I found Iris both annoying and pointless. Is that all she does now? Give Barry pep talks and mother's Wally?

I tuned out Wally but, Iris just bothered me and I like CP.  I don't know what the purpose of her, Joe and Caitlin were last night.  Either make them important to the ep or don't put them in at all. 

[bethy]

3 hours ago, looptab said:

Couple things: the introduction of Thea was weirdly set up. One moment Felicity says she called her, the next she says she had come to drop some documents - and why at the loft, I wonder. Does Thea know Oliver doesn't live there anymore?

Right? Do none of them even listen to what the characters are saying? Or pay attention to what their (and by "their" I mean writers'/producers'/actors') characters are doing? 

21 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

I don't know what the purpose of [Iris], Joe and Caitlin were last night.  Either make them important to the ep or don't put them in at all. 

They're not masks, so they obviously can't have anything important to do. [/sarcasm] But I'm betting TPTB knew if they excluded the three of them completely people would be pissed, so stuck them in.

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I didn't have a problem with Wally last night. However, I found Iris both annoying and pointless. Is that all she does now? Give Barry pep talks and mother's Wally?

Yep, that's been her purpose this season. Cheer Barry up and worry about Wally. She basically waits around in the background for her cue to do either of those. I feel bad for CP, she tries but it's such a thankless role. 

Wally's been whining about his powers since the beginning of this season. I am done with him. Either help or don't just stop whining about it. 

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, looptab said:

Couple things: the introduction of Thea was weirdly set up. One moment Felicity says she called her, the next she says she had come to drop some documents - and why at the loft, I wonder. Does Thea know Oliver doesn't live there anymore?

Felicity's pout when she finds out that Caitlin has powers is the best, haha.

Remember when Felicity and Caitlin were good friends and spoke on the phone to each other between episodes?  AK & MG don't.

Thea has apparently developed super speed because there wasn't time between Barry showing up and Thea's arrival to make a phone call much less for Thea to travel to the loft.

I guess Barry doesn't know that Oliver doesn't live there any more either.

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I really think they didn't think the whole Flashpoint storyline through and just went with because it happened in the comics. There storyline is a mess now and the repetitiveness of some people mad at Barry like they should be and the others telling Barry it's not his fault and everyone should love him is getting annoying. I know people are saying GG being adorable helps them, but that doesn't do anything for me. A person's actions and how they they handle responsibility can make them very unattractive. Barry's a terrible leader, I don't know why anyone would choose him. How does getting people together mean you should lead? That just means you had one good idea. I hope Arrow's episode is better (although having to see Laurel again taints it) because so far this Crossover is very much for because comics and not for regular fans. 

I can only assume that Barry got to lead because it's his show since he's the worst  leader of them all.  He thinks it's all about him (not unexpected since everyone is propping him all the time) and his only team is his tech support, unlike Oliver or Sara who have actual people in the field with them.

I guess it was Barry's organization for that V formation in the promo picture that puts the non-superpowered members of the team in the front and the ones with powers hanging to the back.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Preliminary Flash Ratings:

[Chaser]

Damn.

[bethy]

Rudolph was on last night?! Dang it!

[Starfish35]

Wow.  I really underestimated. :)

ETA:  Checked Spotted Ratings. These are of course preliminary, but pending adjustments,  best demo numbers since 02/16/16, and best viewership since 01/27/15 12/09/14 (I rounded down).

Edited November 30, 2016 by Starfish35
Correcting date

[Morrigan2575]

Supergirl jumped 2 tenths. Flash jumped 3 tenths. Does Arrow and LoT get a 2-3 tenth jump or do they massively benefit from the crossover (continued story) by matching Flash in the 1.4 - 1.5 range?

[Starfish35]

Actually Flash jumped 0.4, assuming it doesn't adjust down.  It was 1.1 last week.

[Chaser]

Crossovers are going to start being a bi-annual thing.

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Supergirl jumped 2 tenths. Flash jumped 3 tenths. Does Arrow and LoT get a 2-3 tenth jump or do they massively benefit from the crossover (continued story) by matching Flash in the 1.4 - 1.5 range?

Flash 2.08 and Arrow 4.08 both got 1.4 in demo last season. Flash only nudged up 0.1 from episode 2.07; Arrow improved 0.3 from 4.07 (1.1). If Arrow gets a 1.4 for 5.08, they'll need to jump 0.7 in demo-- that's a 100% increase over 5.07. I don't recall ever hearing about that happening to any show.

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Supergirl jumped 2 tenths. Flash jumped 3 tenths. Does Arrow and LoT get a 2-3 tenth jump or do they massively benefit from the crossover (continued story) by matching Flash in the 1.4 - 1.5 range?

I suspect so. I think they're going to be very happy with tonight's ratings. 

[Starfish35]

For the first crossover, Arrow jumped from a 0.9 for 3.07 to a 1.4 for 3.08. 

It will be interesting to see what happens.

[Sakura12]

Isn't it more important to retain the viewers for the next episode? Of course this crossover is going to get a jump in viewers, you kind of have to watch in order to watch the other shows.  I can't just watch LoT this week, since it's the final act of a 3 parter.  Although from this Crossover event Supergirl's episode felt like an season one episode which is not a good thing and I will probably stop watching the Flash since I hate the direction they are taking all the characters. 

[Chaser]

Crossovers are all outliers. I'm going to guess that Arrow is going to hit 1.2, cause that looks like a good number.

I don't see a bunch of viewers hanging out after the episode.

[Morrigan2575]

IIRC they did in S3 (9-12) and S4 for episode 9-10. I'd have to actually open my computer to find the exact numbers

[Chaser]

I know that S3 enjoyed a ratings boost for longer than S4.