S13.E04: The Big Empty

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

They blow out lights and cause TVs and radios to flicker, just like ghosts and demons. I'd think angels would register something on an EMF detector since they are pure light and light is energy.

EMF detectors never picked up angels AFAIK. Maybe that was for plot convenience or the energy is different for angels and is not detectable by EMF. Maybe it's because they are multidimensional waves of celestial intent so they can't register on the EMF.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

EMF detectors never picked up angels AFAIK. Maybe that was for plot convenience or the energy is different for angels and is not detectable by EMF. Maybe it's because they are multidimensional waves of celestial intent so they can't register on the EMF.

I don't recall an EMF detector being used in the presence of an angel before?

[SueB]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, maybe Cass wasn't yet in the Empty when he was brought back before? Or, maybe it's not so much that God pulled him out, but asked the Empty to release him? 

I dunno, when big powerful beings start taking about how they're top dog and no one can top them, I tend to think it's just hubris on their part. There's always someone or something bigger.

Me too.  Especially if they are asleep.

And whatever 'transfers' their essence to the Empty may have been on standing order to not transfer Cas.  And maybe that changed after Cas killed Billie?  

IDK.  But I completely agree aabout powerful beings and overstatements.  Chuck actually was "lordly" because he was "the Lord". He was borderline smug on occaision but generally not like these others.  Now he had his Chuck "schtick" going on ... so that was generally less hubris... but he never seemed to act like he NEEDED to prove anything.  The ONLY time he acted like he needed to prove something was 1) when he justified being absent and 2) when he begged Amara to see that the universe needed to be born.  j

Still... if I stick with my entropy theory... Chuck couldn't stop his own demise.  And unless Amara restored Chuck, she would have gone out of existance as well.  Which implies the sleeping Entropy is the state of existence without entities. 

And I like that they portrayed him as "I just want to go back to sleep."  I mean, he's like most people -- REALLY GRUMPY  when woken.  But it doesn't DO anything accept sleep.  

And then when Cas woke up, IT woke up.  And wanted to go back to sleep.  I wonder if Cas waking up was waking a sleeping giant ... and something more bad will happen because it woke up? 

But.. if the Empty spit Cas out, it won't go looking to get him back.  He's annoying.  So maybe it'll be okay.  

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

EMF detectors never picked up angels AFAIK. Maybe that was for plot convenience or the energy is different for angels and is not detectable by EMF. Maybe it's because they are multidimensional waves of celestial intent so they can't register on the EMF.

I suspect that Cas and other Angels who bust lights are just need to adjust their power & frequencies to not disrupt.  Maybe those who don't have experience bust lights easier.  Or they can do so upon demand.

So they could or could not show up on the EMF depending on where they have the 'volume' set.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

And whatever 'transfers' their essence to the Empty may have been on standing order to not transfer Cas.  And maybe that changed after Cas killed Billie?  

Or, perhaps with Death's death? 

[Mulva]

4 hours ago, Ria said:

Dean continuing to be such a complete douche ruined most of the episode for me. I’ve lost all patience with his constant moody moping self pitying anger. I think it’s obvious he’s mentally ill, which is not his fault. But he needs some meds fast. Abilify worked wonders for my cousin with similar symptoms. He needs to go get some help. Because this is not enjoyable to watch. I’d rather watch Sam and Jack team up and leave Dean behind to sulk. 

The Empty said God had no authority but since Cas has died a few times already and been brought back, wouldn’t God have pulled him out of there before? 

Dean has every right to be angry, sad, bitter and grief stricken.  He does not have the right to take his feelings out on anyone else.  I find the defense of that behavior by excusing it as that's just the way he is, to be reprehensible.  Behavior is a choice.  Dean using Sam and Jack as his emotional punching bags is completely wrong and undeserved.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Tht makes sense, but haven't they turned on the EMF around Cas before?  I just can't remember EMF ever pinging for an angel before on this show.  For that matter, what about when Sam was possessed by Gadreel?  Did he never use an EMF that whole half a season?

They have the EMF with them most all the time. So if Cas is in the car with them it must be turned off or it doesn't pick him up.

[Myrelle]

56 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Dean has every right to be angry, sad, bitter and grief stricken.

Apparently he doesn't have that right. Not according to the text of this episode, anyway.

And Sam forcing Dean to shoulder a burden that only Sam wants/wanted to take on is completely wrong and undeserved also-and very John-like too, btw-and if I were Dean you can bet I'd be pushing back against that just as much as he was shown to be in the first three episodes-so if Sam and Jack appeared to  be emotional punching bags for Dean, from where I sit he was only punching back in response to Sam's often used manipulation of people(even his loved ones) and circumstances to get his own way again-and again, as John used to practice quite often on Dean, too.

But Dean was not allowed to voice that thought nor anything even close to it. And please correct me if I'm wrong in believing that only Dean was made to apologize for his "wrong" feelings and behaviors in this one; and only Dean was berated and frowned upon by the "therapist".

I think the writers made it perfectly clear through the script that they believed Dean had no right whatsoever to be angry, sad, bitter or grief stricken over anything that's happened so far-because Sam wants him and needs him to drop everything and stow any bad feelings he might have toward Jack away, just like that, so that Dean can yet again help and support Sam do something that is obviously too much for Sam to handle on his own and that Sam has pretty much known all along was going to be too much for him to handle on his own, no matter what Dean's feelings/ thoughts on that might be.

Sam wanting what he wants(Dean's help and support) without considering what his brother might want or is able to give at the moment is completely wrong and undeserved, too, but again, Sam wasn't called out on these/his "wrong" feelings and behavior in this episode; only Dean was.

I'm going to chance leaving this comment here as I don't think that it's Bitch vs Jerk but simply what happened in the episode.

But please let me know if it's deemed to be in the wrong thread and I will move it to the appropriate one, mods. Thank you.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Myrelle

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, Mulva said:

Dean has every right to be angry, sad, bitter and grief stricken.  He does not have the right to take his feelings out on anyone else.  I find the defense of that behavior by excusing it as that's just the way he is, to be reprehensible.  Behavior is a choice.  Dean using Sam and Jack as his emotional punching bags is completely wrong and undeserved.

Is it the defense of the behavior that you find reprehensible or the behavior itself? 

I personally get very upset to hear anyone make statements that sound so judgmental and intolerant.  I've been angry and hurt and lashed out at people I love.  Pretty much everyone I know has had a time when they did or said something they shouldn't have because they weren't thinking clearly--either from anger, grief, bitterness, or whatever.  That's being human.   And you can't tell me that Sam and Dean have never said hurtful things to each other.  Have never deliberately said things they knew were going to give an emotional blow to the other.  This isn't BvJ, so I'm not going into specifics but I think everyone can think of some examples from the past episodes from *both* of them.  

Actions may be a choice, but reactions are not, and emotional behavior can't always be boxed up neatly.   Just ask anyone who's been through depression, anxiety or bouts of rage.  So if Dean had run someone off the road in a fit of road rage, that's horrible.  If he lashes out verbally at someone, especially if he's actually expressing his true emotions, IMO that's nowhere even close to being "reprehensible," even if the other person doesn't like what's being said.  Even if it hurts them.  That's not making someone an "emotional punching bag" unless done consistently and when *not* under the influence of stress/grief/trauma/something supernatural.  

Humans aren't Vulcans, who can repress emotions and behave logically at all times.  Sometimes negative emotions come out in inappropriate ways.  As long as it's just words, we can understand the reasons behind it, even if we don't like what's being said.  JMO.  

Edited November 4, 2017 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

32 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I personally get very upset to hear anyone make statements that sound so judgmental and intolerant.  I've been angry and hurt and lashed out at people I love.  Pretty much everyone I know has had a time when they did or said something they shouldn't have because they weren't thinking clearly--either from anger, grief, bitterness, or whatever. 

Agree so much with this.

[millennium]

On 11/2/2017 at 9:06 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I really liked this episode. I thought it was pretty good because it focused on characters I actually care about. It dealt with Sam, Dean, and Jack's different ways of grieving, and I understood all of them. I love that they got to mention Sam's loss of a relationship with Mary, even last season. I think the show often forgets about this because of Dean's baggage with Mary, so when they do mention it, which feels rare, I enjoy it. But we also got to look at Dean's grief. He's responding through anger. He might be reasonable in not trusting Jack, but he also has been cruel toward him, even by him just existing, which is wrong. I've said this on another forum this week about another character, but I can empathize, sympathize, and understand completely with a character, but also acknowledge that some of their actions are wrong and that they're being a dick. 

So, in this sense, I can see Dean's point of view and also see that him and Sam have been wrong in their actions with their grief. Sam has thrown himself into basically using Jack but also somewhat saving him, because he reminds him of himself. His needs for Jack are mostly to bring back their mother and he hasn't actually sat down to talk with Dean about what's happened in the last couple of weeks. It's a short amount of time to go through losing their mom and not knowing if she's alive, as well as losing Cas and thinking that he's not coming back. So, each boy is throwing themselves into distractions and avoiding their issues. 

Honestly, I was wondering when Dean and Sam would find a different way to deal with their issues, even a temporary one. I can't recall if they've ever tried therapy; it's been 13 seasons so I can't remember all.

Though, after 13 seasons, you'd think we wouldn't be going through this. 

Jack is also dealing with a lot, so I don't mind he got his own opportunity to deal with his issues, like seeing his mother. I like that his powers didn't activate just because of Dean, as that relationship is strained still, but it was a combination of Dean's speech and Sam's life being in danger. I am hoping for Jack/Dean to talk things out.

I liked the Cas subplot. Evil British DoppelCas was a lot of fun, even if I wasn't fond of the accent. I'd really like it to be Real!Cas, but obviously they'll pull a lame twist like it being the doppelganger. 

I agree with you right up until the end -- I sorely want a Castiel-free universe.  But otherwise a good episode, especially because it probed a layer or two deeper than usual into Sam's feelings and motivations.

I wanted to dislike Jack from the beginning but he's okay.   More Commander Data than Spock in my opinion, but maybe Dean's not a Next Generation fan.    It was nice to see Sam in a mentoring role and laying all his cards out on the table with Jack.   

I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying these (mostly) Castiel/Crowley-free episodes.  I know it won't last but I'll take it as long as it does.   

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, millennium said:

More Commander Data than Spock in my opinion,

I knew he reminded me of somebody.  I think that's it.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I knew he reminded me of somebody.  I think that's it.

I see Star Man

[Jeddah]

I'm rewatching this, and now I'm annoyed that Sam and Dean don't keep their own journals. They know more than anyone else! Write it down!

[Simba122504]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:05 PM, Hanahope said:

Guess Cas is back.  That didn’t take long and we didn’t see anything of the great nothing. Seemed too easy too.  Maybe it is the doppelgänger.

That was nice for Jack to get some closure.  Yes, some monsters can do good.  Maybe Dean is finally learning that.  

The writers will do something about Jack and his powers or it’ll be too easy for the boys.

Did TPTB forget about Dean's vampire friend Benny?

[MysteryGuest]

I just watched the episode again, and now I'm thinking that maybe Cas is "Empty" Cas.  Whatever this entity was, it read Cas' mind, and made a point of telling him that it knew everything about him.  He could return to earth, and would know all that Cas knows.  We have no way of knowing whether this entity is good or evil, he just appeared cranky to have been woken up.  I don't know, but something about the way Cas was looking up and feeling the sun on himself made me think it might be the other entity experiencing sunshine for the first time.  Of course, it could just be our Cas, happy to be back, but I'm thinking there has to be a twist somewhere.  So we get our Cas' memories but with this other entity tagging along.  If it's just regular Cas, then what was the point of all of it?

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

If it's just regular Cas, then what was the point of all of it?

That’s my question too. There was no reason to put him in the Empty if they were just going to take him right back out again. They could’ve tossed him into the AU with all the other regulars. 

I suppose it’s possible that the Empty will play some plotline role at some point. I think it’s more likely that the thing that is now out of the Empty is not Cas. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Bessie

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I don't know, but something about the way Cas was looking up and feeling the sun on himself made me think it might be the other entity experiencing sunshine for the first time.  

I thought the same thing and I didn't think his face looked like Cas' expressions. He just didn't seem like our!Cas.  Maybe he hitched a ride with Cas?

[Affogato]

On 11/3/2017 at 10:54 AM, strippedhalo said:

I know this is a dumb thing to complain about, especially on Supernatural, but... so Jack heals instantly from stab wounds to the chest, but can be taken out for a significant period of time by a blow to the head?  Convenient!

Also... not!Castiel's excuse for looking like Cas was that its true form would cause him to go insane.  But Castiel's true form is not Jimmy.  Do all angels and demons go to the Empty in their vessels for all eternity?

I think the jimmy vessel may be Cas’s Self image at this point. He’s worked hard to be human. That may not make sense but it feels right for the character. 

[Affogato]

On 11/3/2017 at 6:06 PM, catrox14 said:

 Maybe Jack is far more powerful than anyone ever thought. Maybe he has God powers.

Yeah. My prediction is he goes off and creates another world. He needed to learn about humanity first, of course. 

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I'm rewatching this, and now I'm annoyed that Sam and Dean don't keep their own journals. They know more than anyone else! Write it down!

I think they both do keep journals. I know it's been mentioned that Dean does once or twice and I always imagined Sam's journal was probably digital. However, I think the therapist was asking about a different kind of journal, though. One full of their daily thoughts and feelings, not so much detailed accounts of killing monsters.

7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Yeah. My prediction is he goes off and creates another world. He needed to learn about humanity first, of course. 

I've been predicting that he'll end up fixing the Alternate.

[Affogato]

On 11/3/2017 at 7:11 PM, Bergamot said:

My favorite line of this episode was when Sam burst in to warn them that the therapist was actually a shapeshifter, and Dean said, "Oh, I thought she was just annoying." LOL! Because let's face it, that therapist did a terrible job.

First of all, I loved the way she blithely brushed aside the question  as to whether her grieving patients were ... well, maybe a little disturbed, let's say, when they suddenly encounter their dead loved one. They didn't care, she asserted, because they got to say good-bye. Sure, because of course someone who is struggling enough with grief to seek out therapy, is not going to be at all traumatized by having a shapeshifter appear before them in the form of the dead person, even if they have no experience with the supernatural. As long as they get "closure", it's all good, right?

Second, I couldn't help noticing that her little therapy session with Jack was pretty self-serving. After all, she admits that she is using her patients to help assuage her guilt for her own past actions.  In addition, she knows very little about Jack and even less about Kelly, but somehow she is able to assure him that his mother believed that monsters can be good! Of course his mother did, since as she then tells Jack, this is something that it is important to herself to believe. So telling Jack that this is true and getting his smile and hug in return is exactly what she needs; she doesn't know enough to know if it is what Jack needs.

Third, I disliked how judgmental she was of Dean. Sure, Jack was doing his sad little woobie thing, and Sam was so hurt and overcome by his emotions that he had to walk out of the room, and they both got the therapist's sympathy and smiles. But then there was Dean: rude, angry, striking out at people, even (gasp - the horror!) taking a drink from his flask! And so naturally she was rude and belligerent to him in turn - I mean, how dare he come in and bleed out his trauma all over her nice white room!

Because make no mistake about it, Dean's grieving and trauma were no less deep than anyone's in that room, and all those things that she reacted to with her annoyed little disapproving expressions were signs of it. Something that would be obvious to anyone, not just a therapist. I can't think of anything more traumatizing than to lose your mother at age 4 in a horrible way that totally destroys your chances for a normal life, only to, unbelievably, get her back, then feel rejected by her, and then have her presumably horribly killed again. It would not have been easy or maybe even possible to help Dean, but she definitely didn't want to be bothered. 

I remember the episodes in earlier seasons when Dean and Sam were dealing with their grief over the death of their father, and how I felt both of their reactions were presented sympathetically and in such an authentic way on the show. It is a storyline which remains one of the high points of the whole series for me. But if the current writers can't do a better job of handling such subjects than this poorly written episode, I wish they would stop trying, and just stick to something more simplistic.
 

Look, in general I prefer Dean too and find Sam often annoying.

But this was a brief session when she addressed Dean’s anger and denial which is manifesting as abusive to jack and Sam.

Since his anger endangers the universe as we know it when Jack is frightened....this should be addressed on the show.

Dean has been being a prick and should apologize. Sam needs more coherent characterization. Jack is a freaking baby. He needs to be hugged all the time. 

I thought the talking to dead people brand of therapy really unlikely in a world where she keeps her nature secret. Creepy and ineffective but oddly something jack needed. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Affogato
Something weird happened with quote

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Yeah. My prediction is he goes off and creates another world. He needed to learn about humanity first, of course. 

I'm thinking that's also spoilers for S13 ep16

 

Spoiler

how we get the Scooby-Doo ep Since he was shown watching Scooby-Doo and the The Clone Wars he may just decide that some kind of animated world is Paradise so he creates that construct either on purpose or inadvertently. So he somehow gets them all into his own version of Scooby-Doo. Even though Dean shut off Scooby-Doo he clearly enjoyed it for a moment and maybe Jack picked up on that and decides that is how he will make Dean happy, or safe by taking them all  to Scooby-Doo land.

[companionenvy]

I am slightly afraid that the Cas we see at the end is Empty!Cas, but I still think he's our Cas. Even if the writers weren't pulling the old switcheroo, there were still a couple of reasons for the keeper of the empty to appear in Cas form:

1. Parallelism with the shifter storyline, in which the shifter can impersonate people, and briefly appears as not!Dean.

2. A metaphorical "wrestling with yourself" effect. After the keeper of the empty gets inside Cas's head, he taunts him with some ideas that Cas himself has had before. Having the being wearing Cas's face as he says it makes it more powerful that Cas doesn't accept that and insists on returning to Earth. 

[Aeryn13]

I think it`s gonna be Cas instead of the Empty-keeper but somehow not all there Cas. Either Empty-guy hitched a ride or some part of Cas stayed behind or him coming back will have some supernatural consequences later on. Otherwise, those scenes are really just filler. Unless it is supposed to simply introduce the concept of the Empty-keeper for further use as a villain. 

[Commando Cody]

If Cas can wake up in the empty, that leaves it open for other angels to wake up in the empty.   If fake Cas exits, leaving real Cas alone, there might be a story there.  The entity originally just wanted to go back to sleep.  However, being the person Jack has bonded with most, fake Cas could wield a lot of power using him.  

I was hoping for Apocalypse Cas to show up this season. I really miss full-powered, 4th season attitude Cas. 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Commando Cody said:

If Cas can wake up in the empty, that leaves it open for other angels to wake up in the empty.   If fake Cas exits, leaving real Cas alone, there might be a story there.  The entity originally just wanted to go back to sleep.  However, being the person Jack has bonded with most, fake Cas could wield a lot of power using him.  

I was hoping for Apocalypse Cas to show up this season. I really miss full-powered, 4th season attitude Cas. 

If other angels wake up that would mean that Jack woke them up for some reason.  I am thinking the reason why Cas was in his S4 outfit is because he is going to be full powered S4  Apocalypse Castiel...at least I hope so.

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

If other angels wake up that would mean that Jack woke them up for some reason.  I am thinking the reason why Cas was in his S4 outfit is because he is going to be full powered S4  Apocalypse Castiel...at least I hope so.

Am I the only one who can't tell the difference between Cas's trench coats?

[Casseiopeia]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Am I the only one who can't tell the difference between Cas's trench coats?

Old Cas had a longer  trench coat.  Recent Cas's coat was much shorter.  The original tie is back too.  Although the coat in the Big Empty looks like a heavier material.  And I can't believe I know anything about Castiels coats.

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Casseiopeia

[DittyDotDot]

52 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

If other angels wake up that would mean that Jack woke them up for some reason.  I am thinking the reason why Cas was in his S4 outfit is because he is going to be full powered S4  Apocalypse Castiel...at least I hope so.

Oops, taking to spoilers thread... .

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Am I the only one who can't tell the difference between Cas's trench coats?

Heh, your comment made me think of the fan spoof Misha and the cast made a few years ago where spoof Misha is insisting all his trench coats are different and the wardrobe gal is standing there shaking her head saying they're all identical. It's pretty cute. ;)

Edited November 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

59 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Heh, your comment made me think of the fan spoof Misha and the cast made a few years ago where spoof Misha is insisting all his trench coats are different and the wardrobe gal is standing there shaking her head saying they're all identical. It's pretty cute. ;)

I'm with wardrobe lady.  All trench coats are exactly the same.  that's why spies wear them.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Am I the only one who can't tell the difference between Cas's trench coats?

No, you can count me among the ones who obviously hasn't been paying attention.  I don't really even know why Cas still wears the same clothes.  He's been on earth for years now...he's allowed to shop.  When he was working in the store he wore different clothes.  I know it's part of his schtick, but I wouldn't mind seeing him in something else once in a while.

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

No, you can count me among the ones who obviously hasn't been paying attention.  I don't really even know why Cas still wears the same clothes.  He's been on earth for years now...he's allowed to shop.  When he was working in the store he wore different clothes.  I know it's part of his schtick, but I wouldn't mind seeing him in something else once in a while.

Yeah, it made sense back when he first took over Jimmy and even through S7, but I thought after he left his old trench coat in the washer when he was "human" was a sign we'd not see him all trenched out anymore. Apparently I was wrong. 

[gonzosgirrl]

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎02 at 9:05 PM, Hanahope said:

Guess Cas is back.  That didn’t take long and we didn’t see anything of the great nothing. Seemed too easy too.  Maybe it is the doppelgänger.

That was nice for Jack to get some closure.  Yes, some monsters can do good.  Maybe Dean is finally learning that.  

The writers will do something about Jack and his powers or it’ll be too easy for the boys.

Dean learned it a long time ago. The writers forgot/don't care/go with whatever meets the plot of the day.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean learned it a long time ago. The writers forgot/don't care/go with whatever meets the plot of the day.

True indeed. Dean learned it with Lenore and with Benny.

[catrox14]

Holy crap. I didn't notice this until I saw this Tumblr post.

Is there some kind of intentional revisionist history happening in this show right now? I mean there has been some weird ass things that Sam has said about his life.....but this is pretty bad and I feel bad that I didn't notice it before. I mean couldn't Sam have said..."Dean, Cas, me and another friend who died, closed that rift".

Damn.

I mean I get that Jack doesn't know who Crowley is but they could have had Sam acknowledge his help in some way. Hell, he could have even used Crowley as an example of a bad guy doing a good thing, you know? Eeep.
 

Quote

 

frozen-delight

13x04 | The Big Empty

Sorry, Andrew Dabb, you can’t make us forget Crowley that easily!

Source: frozen-delight

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean learned it a long time ago. The writers forgot/don't care/go with whatever meets the plot of the day.

I don't think Dean thinking they should kill Jack shows that the writers forgot that Dean knows that not everything supernatural is evil, but Jack is a special case. Jack represents everything they lost to Dean and he's the Devil's spawn, so Dean is projecting all his grief on Jack right now. If Dean really believed they should kill everything supernatural, he would've killed the therapist when Sam outed her rather than giving her the chance to plead her case. 

[catrox14]

That post reminds me that Crowley must be in the Empty now.

[Jeddah]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That post reminds me that Crowley must be in the Empty now.

Hmmm. This could lead down a rabbit hole. Is there a separate Empty for each universe? What if someone from our World, like Crowley, dies in the AU? Which Empty do they go to? Since Lucifer in that AU was killed by Michael, is there already one Lucifer in the Empty? I'm sure I'm putting way more thought into this than the writers did.

[catrox14]

Just now, Jeddah said:

Hmmm. This could lead down a rabbit hole. Is there a separate Empty for each universe? What if someone from our World, like Crowley, dies in the AU? Which Empty do they go to? Since Lucifer in that AU was killed by Michael, is there already one Lucifer in the Empty? I'm sure I'm putting way more thought into this than the writers did.

That's a good question. I've just presumed that Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and the Empty are all multi-dimensional. I don't know why I thought that but I just figured they were accessible by our Earth, the other Earth etc. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That's a good question. I've just presumed that Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and the Empty are all multi-dimensional. I don't know why I thought that but I just figured they were accessible by our Earth, the other Earth etc. 

That's what I would think too. I don't know how it exactly works though, but there could've been hundreds of different Cass-es in the Empty...interesting that Jack found the right one...or did he? ;)

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Holy crap. I didn't notice this until I saw this Tumblr post.

Is there some kind of intentional revisionist history happening in this show right now? I mean there has been some weird ass things that Sam has said about his life.....but this is pretty bad and I feel bad that I didn't notice it before. I mean couldn't Sam have said..."Dean, Cas, me and another friend who died, closed that rift".

Damn.

I mean I get that Jack doesn't know who Crowley is but they could have had Sam acknowledge his help in some way. Hell, he could have even used Crowley as an example of a bad guy doing a good thing, you know? Eeep.
 

Yeah, I wouldn't expect Sam to say that though. His disdain for Crowley has been pretty consistent, so it's not surprising they wouldn't have him mention Crowley - though you're so right, it would've been an object lesson for Jack.

At least Dean remembered him in his prayer/plea to Chuck, and included him in the goodbye at the funeral pyre. I guess they explained who the third name was to Jack offscreen?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Hmmm. This could lead down a rabbit hole. Is there a separate Empty for each universe? What if someone from our World, like Crowley, dies in the AU? Which Empty do they go to? Since Lucifer in that AU was killed by Michael, is there already one Lucifer in the Empty? I'm sure I'm putting way more thought into this than the writers did.

This makes me think about how Lucifer couldn't be killed by Bobby's gun nor Cas' blade in the AU. Maybe someone from "our" side can't die in the AU. Of course, Cas used apparently his own angel blade and not an archangel blade but maybe he did and it just doesn't work. Maybe Crowley didn't really die at all in the AU? I wouldn't put it past Dabb to re-cast Crowley in a new meatsuit, or at least Fergus MacCleod.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That post reminds me that Crowley must be in the Empty now.

How can it be Empty with so many souls (or whatever) in there?  Maybe before the demon-killing knife (and the easy access to angel/archangel blades) there were just a few in a vast space, but think how many demons and angels have been killed just in the last few years.  (I forget--did they say the Empty also includes all the salted-and-burned ghosts and the monsters Dean and Benny killed in Purgatory?)   I'd say the Winchesters (and Cas) are probably responsible for filling up vast tracts in there, so maybe  now it's "The Half-Empty." :)  (Maybe that was the meaning of the half-filled glass tweet the other day?)  

Edited November 6, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, I wouldn't expect Sam to say that though. His disdain for Crowley has been pretty consistent, so it's not surprising they wouldn't have him mention Crowley - though you're so right, it would've been an object lesson for Jack.

At least Dean remembered him in his prayer/plea to Chuck, and included him in the goodbye at the funeral pyre. I guess they explained who the third name was to Jack offscreen?

Oh I forgot Dean said his name at the funeral pyre. That kind of makes it worse.

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I would think too. I don't know how it exactly works though, but there could've been hundreds of different Cass-es in the Empty...interesting that Jack found the right one...or did he? ;)

Good question. That would be interesting if woke up a dead one from the AU.

[SueB]

On 11/3/2017 at 11:54 AM, catrox14 said:

Castiel's true form is an angel so I wonder if that creature is something that is more powerful than angels.

I've decided that Misha was going for a Jackie Kennedy/Katherine Hepburn mid atlantic kind of accent. Misha can do accents quite adeptly as seen in cons etc, so if he was going to do an English or Welsh or Norhern English accents then that's what we would have heard. Misha is a great actor and I think his entire body was different.

I saw on Tumblr or Twitter they were calling him "Qstiel" as a reference to "Q" from Star Trek and that kind of fits as well.

I'm fine with what he did there upon a re-watch. To me he was nothing like Castiel, Emmanuel, Jimmy, God or Leviathan Cas.

And I'd just like to once more be annoying and  toot my own horn that I called it back in the summer that Cas would be seeing himself solely based on Misha's sense of humor and saying it was a very handsome, talented actor LOL.  I love Misha.

You are correct about that accent @catrox14  

For those who don't know the backstory, mid-atlantic is a 'taught' American aristocrat dialect popular in the 30's.  
Academic:

 

Katherine Hepburn & Cary Grant speaking with that accent: 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 11/3/2017 at 6:16 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I recently subscribed to this podcast, but haven't listened to it yet, but considering the above comment...are you sure you aren't in some elaborate and coincidental dream? ;)

You mean like a djinn thing?  I would hope that dream world would be a lot nicer!  ;)  The rest is going to need to go in the "You know you watch too much SPN" thread. 

On 11/3/2017 at 7:47 PM, MysteryGuest said:

As long as I'm apparently in dissecting mode, this is one more thing that bothered me.  The woman is a Shape Shifter, so just how rock solid would her alibi be that she was "seen" by other people at a meeting?  For all Sam and Dean know, the real doctor's body could be shoved in a closet somewhere.  I'm glad I focused more on the A story when watching this because the B story really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, IMO.

Oh, well, if you're going to start dissecting it.... 

And now I'm confused. 

On 11/4/2017 at 9:03 AM, DittyDotDot said:

On rewatch I realized I forgot that apparently Jack doesn't give off EMF? Interesting. Granted it very well could be that no one thought about this, but interesting, none-the-less.

On 11/4/2017 at 11:16 AM, Katy M said:

Do angels give off EMF?  I thought the only things that gave off EMF were ghosts and demons.

Weighing in on the EMF thing, because this is actually something I know a little about.  Not a lot, mind you - electromagnetics was not one of my favorite classes back in college.  ?  But...EMF is caused by differences in voltage.  The earth itself has a natural electromagnetic field.  Frequencies, or wavelength, affect the characteristics of the field.  So, Castiel and other angels being a multi-dimensional wavelength of celestial intent, might not set off EMF detectors - which are tuned specifically to detect higher than normal EMF fields on earth - because of the multi-dimensional part.  At least that's my pseudo-scientific explanation and I'm sticking to it!  ?

[Katy M]

11 hours ago, Jeddah said:

Hmmm. This could lead down a rabbit hole. Is there a separate Empty for each universe? What if someone from our World, like Crowley, dies in the AU? Which Empty do they go to? Since Lucifer in that AU was killed by Michael, is there already one Lucifer in the Empty? I'm sure I'm putting way more thought into this than the writers did.

And that is one of the reasons I HATE AUs.

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

How can it be Empty with so many souls (or whatever) in there?  Maybe before the demon-killing knife (and the easy access to angel/archangel blades) there were just a few in a vast space, but think how many demons and angels have been killed just in the last few years.  (I forget--did they say the Empty also includes all the salted-and-burned ghosts and the monsters Dean and Benny killed in Purgatory?)   I'd say the Winchesters (and Cas) are probably responsible for filling up vast tracts in there, so maybe  now it's "The Half-Empty." :)  (Maybe that was the meaning of the half-filled glass tweet the other day?)  

 

Here's my latest spec. No spoilers.

I think the Empty is actually the entity that lives in that watery space and formed itself into Cas' doppelganger. 

IMO, it's the first "nothingness".  I think it "lives" off the inert energy of the dead demons and angels  and it has to "sleep" to keep them quiet or it goes crazy. I think when Empty!Cas said he would throw Cas so far into the Empty he couldn't bother him again, it was really him saying he would shove down Cas energy to the bottom of the energy pool. But he couldn't because Cas' energy was too strong.

And maybe it's also a lonely entity whose wanted to come to Earth forever and now is able to use Cas to do  it. I dunno, just a thought.

[Jonesy]

I enjoyed the episode a lot--I for one thought Misha did an excellent job as EmptyCas...loved the voice.  Nice seeing Cas back on Earth with him facing the sun--nice touch.  Really like Jack, Calvert is doing an excellent job--glad that Dean warmed to him some at end of the episode.

[catrox14]

So....here's a question.

Was Mia in her born shifter body? Or did she take another person's form? Aren't shifters basically born from..well sketchy means. Even the shifter babies in s6, were a result of shifter using a body. Like there was the Alpha shifter so is Mia a child of shifters and she didn't take another person?