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S06.E04: Reversal


formerlyfreedom
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9 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

As much as I like Alena, I don't think she would necessarily be a good judge of whether Cayden James only became bad after ARGUS - she didn't seem too bothered by killing the person in the elevator last season so it's hazy where she would draw that line.

Like I said above, we really can't be sure that Alena is good as she could easily be working for Cayden James.  For that matter can we really know for sure that Cayden James is "bad?"  He seems to be, what with employing Black Siren and trying to destroy the internet.  Except that he wasn't trying to destroy the internet after all and he seemed to disapprove of BS murdering the wounded guard.  First season Oliver murdered guards for his targets all the time and he was the "good guy."  Perhaps Cayden James is similar, employing dark means and darker people to achieve a bright end. 

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2 hours ago, johntfs said:

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a good bit of Chase's "preternatural foresight and planning skills" actually came from Cayden James and Helix.

 

He could easily have known both of those things if Alena was actually his agent in this business.  Alena and Cayden James both know Felicity Smoak works for/with Team Arrow so they were likely counting on Team Arrow's involvement.  Meanwhile, the henchman was probably not ordered to fire until Team Arrow was right outside and ready to strike.  It's very likely that Black Siren was involved to kill/get the fingerprints because she'd be a further lure for Team Arrow to get involved.  As for Alena, that whole bit is just hinky to me.  She comes to Felicity's home with a nasty bruised and a scary story about Cayden James being a Bad Person who wants to do Bad Things.  If Cayden James was close enough to Alena to punch her, he was close enough to shoot her - or have her shot/killed/put down.  So why was Alena allowed to get to Felicity?  Because that puts her close to Felicity, who was likely going to get onto the "break the internet" plot anyway because of the corpses.  With Alena closely involved, Caden James has a mole/intelligence source very close to Felicity (who are probably thinks is the only real threat to his plans) and the rest of Team Arrow, not to mention Felicity's start-up.

I’m not saying that it won’t turn out in the show that Alena was following Cayden James’s orders and he knew Team Arrow was going to burst in just in time to save Felicity and Alena. I’m saying that if that is the case, it’s poor writing. Maybe lazy writing would be a better description. 

Could Cayden have known that Team Arrow was on their trail and on their way to Helix? Sure. But getting the timing right on that is a stretch. It requires more of the all knowing villain shtick we saw with Chase last season. That kind of character needs to be done right and used sparingly. Arrow’s not good at that. 

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40 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Could Cayden have known that Team Arrow was on their trail and on their way to Helix? Sure. But getting the timing right on that is a stretch. It requires more of the all knowing villain shtick we saw with Chase last season. That kind of character needs to be done right and used sparingly. Arrow’s not good at that.

Sure, but let's face it, Evil Harold Finch is far more believable as somebody who's 10 moves ahead than Adrian Chase ever was.  For that matter he's far more believable as somebody other people would want to work with/for than Adrian Chase.  It still boggles my mind that a fruitbat like Chase was able to get even Black Siren to work with him, much less Talia al'Ghul.  I can believe that Talia would come after Oliver for killing her father.  It's much harder for me to believe that she'd work with or for damaged goods like Chase.  I would have thought after he told her what happened with Ra's that she'd have thanked him, killed his would-be serial killing ass right there and then moved to work her own revenge in her way. 

Edited by johntfs
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31 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Sure, but let's face it, Evil Harold Finch is far more believable as somebody who's 10 moves ahead than Adrian Chase ever was.  For that matter he's far more believable as somebody other people would want to work with/for than Adrian Chase.  It still boggles my mind that a fruitbat like Chase was able to get even Black Siren to work with him, much less Talia al'Ghul.  I can believe that Talia would come after Oliver for killing her father.  It's much harder for me to believe that she'd work with or for damaged goods like Chase.  I would have thought after he told her what happened with Ra's that she'd have thanked him, killed his would-be serial killing ass right there and then moved to work her own revenge in her way. 

On that, we can agree. 

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I feel like the dialogue this season has gotten really bad...either that or the actors’ deliveries, or both. I don’t think it’s necessary to have Felicity or Curtis or anyone for that matter give three paragraphs of dialogue before getting to the point, especially in times of danger, etc.  It just doesn’t work for me. A lot of it seems lazy, too.

 

I agree about the poor sound mixing or editing, half the time I couldn’t understand it but didn’t bother to rewind. This has been a problem with Arrow for a while. And I also don’t get the deal with Curtis’ hair..is it a net?

 

Glad to see Michael Emerson, I hadn’t been spoiled on casting..was his name in opening credits? I must have missed it.

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10 hours ago, johntfs said:

Like I said above, we really can't be sure that Alena is good as she could easily be working for Cayden James.  For that matter can we really know for sure that Cayden James is "bad?"  He seems to be, what with employing Black Siren and trying to destroy the internet.  Except that he wasn't trying to destroy the internet after all and he seemed to disapprove of BS murdering the wounded guard.  First season Oliver murdered guards for his targets all the time and he was the "good guy."  Perhaps Cayden James is similar, employing dark means and darker people to achieve a bright end. 

I really do not think Alena is anything other than we've been shown.  The bruise Cayden James gave Alena was given while she was still useful to him.  The order to kill but to "do it as humanely as possible" came after he felt she'd betrayed him. 

Given that he'd lied to her about where he was, I'd say he was testing her or using her to lure Felicity in but Alena is out of the game now.  By the timeline given to us, maybe in a year or two she'd show up and be a part of Felicity's company but in the meantime, she said she was going to go off and get her head together after getting mixed up in Helix.  

I'm confident that Alena IS Felicity's friend if for no other reason than she won't be around to cause any problems this season so I don't' think she could be working with CJ.  

Edited by BkWurm1
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Holy crap, if someone had told me last season that season six would have an episode that would end up being one of my favourite episodes,  I would have laughed in their face.   But everything about this was great.   Felicity.   Ota without actually having ITS.  Oliver bring both supportive and dumb,  but in a believable dumb way. 

Keep it up writers,  just kidding,  I know they can't possibly keep it up. 

Edited by Delphi
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I read about Felicity having a storyline  for realz. So of course, I watched this one. I loved the Oliver/Felicity, and the Oliver/Felicity/Diggle, and let me get this straight:

1) Oliver/Felicity are  in a mature and loving relationship where they support and respect each other in between witty banter and making out sessions (wow, they didn't lose an ounce of chemistry).

2)Diggle, Felicity and Oliver are somehow the central characters* again.

3)Katie Cassidy plays a villain.

4)Slade is back and isn't a Mirakuru'd psycho, but kind of Oliver's frenemy (right?).

And I thought, wasn't that what many many many people in this forum and elsewhere were kind of asking & screaming for BACK IN SEASON TWO? So now they do it, after they lost half of their audience (me included) to [self-censored for fandom talk]. Nice job breaking it, writers.

I wish TPTB had a wicked sense of humor and put Green Arrow/Diggle with the nu-nu-nu-BC. They sure have the chemistry, they kind of click even during filler or combat scenes. YMMV.

K.Cassidy still can't act on this show imo but it doesn't matter, she's a villain. Michael Emerson can balance it with his rather sober portrayal of a Big Bad (no magic! no superpowers!). He reminds me of Malcolm S1, when he was grounded in reality, which bodes well.

I laughed out loud at "I made a promise" in Oliver's monologue, after mentally adding "to a one-night stand whom I mistakenly impregnated". Yeah, I'm evil like that. God I hated that storyline back then.

*Now  Original Team Arrow  wasn't fully back and there was nowhere near enough Felicity/Diggle either. Plus the newbies from S4-5 can't compare to Thea, Roy and Quentin in my eyes. And as an OTA fan first, I was baited before so...we'll see.

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58 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

 

I wish TPTB had a wicked sense of humor and put Green Arrow/Diggle with the nu-nu-nu-BC. They sure have the chemistry, they kind of click even during filler or combat scenes. YMMV.

 

If it weren’t for Lyla, I’d be all for that. 

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1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I wish TPTB had a wicked sense of humor and put Green Arrow/Diggle with the nu-nu-nu-BC. They sure have the chemistry, they kind of click even during filler or combat scenes. YMMV.

I'm with you on the rest, but, dude. Them's fighting words. Even if there was no Lyla (and there will always be Lyla), Diggle deserves better.

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11 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I wish TPTB had a wicked sense of humor and put Green Arrow/Diggle with the nu-nu-nu-BC. They sure have the chemistry, they kind of click even during filler or combat scenes. YMMV.

Lol, and you didn't even see the episodes where she's really smoldering at him.  It's been an ongoing issue with the show runners promising they aren't trying to go there but with Diggle and Dinah's scenes again and again looking like she's about to jump him.    

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On 11/2/2017 at 9:17 PM, Lantern7 said:

Seriously, I know the shit will hit the fan soon. Michael Emerson and Siren will fuck things up, William will be kidnapped at least three times by the finale, Diggle will portray Old-School Roy Harper from the "Hard Traveling Heroes" arc, and Thea will probably be reborn as a pale, bulky hobo zombie or something. It's best to cherish episodes like these while we can.

You know, aside from the whole "William getting kidnapped at least three times" part, that actually sounds pretty awesome or at least hilarious. Thea as a bulky hobo zombie especially, I can just imagine her in some ratty old clothes singing zombie hobo songs. "Too late to feel sorrow... too late to feel pain... too late to eat brains..."

On 11/2/2017 at 9:25 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Great seeing Alena again too and I do hope she comes back once she takes some time.  Kacey Rohl really shines in her scenes.

I can just hear the shippers now. "FELICTY DROP OLIVER! FELENA FOREVER!" "FELICITY DROP OLIVER! FELENA FOREVER!"

On 11/2/2017 at 9:23 PM, tennisgurl said:

Michael Emerson is going to be a great bad guy. He is so creepy, but a classy kind of creepy. Like whenever you see him, you feel like he`s sizing up ways to best kill you and make it look like an accident. Even when he plays good guys (like on POI) he can really channel the creepy.

Exactly. Even when Michael Emerson was a good guy on POI, with this "awkward nerd" persona, limp, and very quiet voice that almost always stayed at the same level he somehow managed to sound so menacing, like he was one bad comment away from snapping and slaughtering everybody in the room.

I could easily imagine Black Siren asking Cayden James what Arclight (or whatever that thing is) and him turning to her and saying "it's a machine, a secret system that spies on you ever hour of every day..."

Edited by immortalfrieza
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13 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

I could easily imagine Black Siren asking Cayden James what Arclight (or whatever that thing is) and him turning to her and saying "it's a machine, a secret system that spies on you ever hour of every day..."

Would be kind of awesome if that happened. Though Helix was already a step away from that.

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7 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

It's like she just keeps thinking I'm evil...I'm evil...I'm evil. And the only way she knows how to project that is to stare really intensely and walk with one foot in front of the other. 

It was especially noticeable this week because naturally, I did a number of rewinds to study (for science) the Oliver/Felicity hallway make out session. (SOOOO much science) and at first I kept going too far back and so I had to watch the drunken step cross, step cross, step cross, over and over and over as well.  

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14 hours ago, bijoux said:

I'm with you on the rest, but, dude. Them's fighting words. Even if there was no Lyla (and there will always be Lyla), Diggle deserves better.

I thought Lyla was gone, like Thea. They kind of broke the Diggles when they retconned baby Sara for a version with a penis, and they never made Ms. Anderson a regular (I could have missed it, though) so I imagined she was/is expendable in their eyes.

I saw two episodes with BC 4.0 -I've seen like two episodes since 4x07, IIRC- and she gets the good amount of airtime for a BC for this show imo (= not much) although she shouldn't be on Team Arrow but a satellite. I can't really say  if I like or dislike her or if she deserves Diggle or not. I just noticed the yowza vibe, plus OK acting and no black of hole of anti-chemistry, which is an improvement over Laurel.

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lol, and you didn't even see the episodes where she's really smoldering at him.  It's been an ongoing issue with the show runners promising they aren't trying to go there but with Diggle and Dinah's scenes again and again looking like she's about to jump him.    

Reminds me of their S1 protests about Oliver/Felicity, LOL. I can't blame the girl for appreciating David Ramsey or Diggle...I should try to find a YT video of those scenes, if only for the lulz.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I thought Lyla was gone, like Thea. They kind of broke the Diggles when they retconned baby Sara for a version with a penis, and they never made Ms. Anderson a regular (I could have missed it, though) so I imagined she was/is expendable in their eyes.

I'm not sure where you're getting this, but they never broke up the Diggles. Last season, Lyla broke Diggle out of jail with Oliver early on, and then later in the season she and Dig had their annual disagreement over her work with ARGUS, while they were first trying and failing to stop Felicity and Helix from breaking out Cayden James, and then rescuing Oliver and Felicity from the bunker. So no, Audrey has never been made into a regular, but while her appearances are more sparse than I'd like, she's not inconsequential.

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25 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I'm not sure where you're getting this, but they never broke up the Diggles. Last season, Lyla broke Diggle out of jail with Oliver early on, and then later in the season she and Dig had their annual disagreement over her work with ARGUS, while they were first trying and failing to stop Felicity and Helix from breaking out Cayden James, and then rescuing Oliver and Felicity from the bunker. So no, Audrey has never been made into a regular, but while her appearances are more sparse than I'd like, she's not inconsequential.

Damn Straight. 

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4 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

There's no nuance. It's like she just keeps thinking I'm evil...I'm evil...I'm evil. And the only way she knows how to project that is to stare really intensely and walk with one foot in front of the other. 

I finally got to watch Thor last night and when Cate Blanchett was walking I started laughing. I wanted to take a clip and send it to KC and say, see, you can be "badass" evil and still walk straight. But then again, I mean, that's Cate freakin' Blanchett. She exuded menace just standing still, with one eyebrow raised. 

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2 hours ago, bijoux said:

I'm not sure where you're getting this, but they never broke up the Diggles. Last season, Lyla broke Diggle out of jail with Oliver early on, and then later in the season she and Dig had their annual disagreement over her work with ARGUS, while they were first trying and failing to stop Felicity and Helix from breaking out Cayden James, and then rescuing Oliver and Felicity from the bunker. So no, Audrey has never been made into a regular, but while her appearances are more sparse than I'd like, she's not inconsequential.

It wasn't a typo, I didn't mean "break up". I meant they broke the Diggles for me, as in "ruined", but it would be way, way, way too strong of a word. I loved them, but during the little I saw of them after the most gratuitous sexist move baby change, somehow it wasn't the same for me. Now I still love them but they wouldn't be a deal-breaker like they used to be (even though I wasn't quite serious about that BC thing).

I'm not saying Lyla's inconsequential, as I said I watched two episodes in two years so I wouldn't know what's her place on the show. I didn't see her but in the previouslies whereas Diggle has just been made Green Arrow, so I imagined she was gone or retconned. I don't want her to be inconsequential either, TV needs good female characters and this show in particular needs to keep its veterans, give them storylines and stop with the newbies.

Nevertheless, I'm under the impression that she's expendable in the eyes of TPTB because showrunners usually secure the actors they absolutely want, even for a small number of episodes and especially in the DC universe. The track record of the show when it comes to female characters sacrificed for Green Arrow's manpain isn't good. *jinx* Hopefully, the writers truly changed their ways.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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11 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Nevertheless, I'm under the impression that she's expendable in the eyes of TPTB because showrunners usually secure the actors they absolutely want, even for a small number of episodes and especially in the DC universe. The track record of the show when it comes to female characters sacrificed for Green Arrow's manpain isn't good. *jinx* Hopefully, the writers truly changed their ways.

I don't think that's true at all. Arrow has gone out of its way not to secure talent they had legit plans for (Summer Glau, Katrina Law, Dude that played WildCat, and all the way back in S1 when they lost Colin Salmon).

Audrey typically gets 1 early season appearance, a crossover appearance (big episode) and then 1 or 2 episodes later in the season plus 1 Flash episode.

Last season she was in 503 cameo, 504, the big crossover and then 519/520.

Spoiler

This year she shows up in either 605 or 606 she's in the big crossover (at least that looks like her in the promo) and will probably show up 1-2 episodes in the backhalf of the show. She might even be in the MSF).

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26 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Nevertheless, I'm under the impression that she's expendable in the eyes of TPTB because showrunners usually secure the actors they absolutely want, even for a small number of episodes and especially in the DC universe. The track record of the show when it comes to female characters sacrificed for Green Arrow's manpain isn't good. *jinx* Hopefully, the writers truly changed their ways.

If she was expendable then I feel like the writers would've just written her off completely by now after seeing people respond to Digg/Dinah's chemistry. But instead we're seeing the EPs go out of their way to assure everyone nothing is happening between Digg/Dinah and that Digg is married to Lyla and nothing is happening with that.

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39 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Nevertheless, I'm under the impression that she's expendable in the eyes of TPTB because showrunners usually secure the actors they absolutely want, even for a small number of episodes and especially in the DC universe. The track record of the show when it comes to female characters sacrificed for Green Arrow's manpain isn't good. *jinx* Hopefully, the writers truly changed their ways.

I have to agree that Arrow has a history of killing off women to create manpain/drama for Oliver. Otherwise, though, I'd argue the opposite, that Lyla is one of the least expendable characters in the Arrowverse, and certainly the least expendable minor character in the Arrowverse. Not because of the Lyla/Diggle relationship, but because:

1. ARGUS is one of the few groups that can and does easily work on all three Arrowverse shows, functioning as the convenient shady government entity that the shows can call upon whenever they need a convenient shady government entity.  They've been a part of Arrow's shadowy corporate/government crime and fighting against/imprisoning dangerous metahumans on Flash, something that Legends of Tomorrow just confirmed this season became a major component of their future mission.

2. And, thanks to the Suicide Squad movie, Lyla is really the only ARGUS character around to represent that convenient shady government entity.

Sure, they could always introduce yet another ARGUS leader, but that leader would then have to be introduced on all three shows. And sure, that could be done during the crossover episodes - but the crossover episodes are already jam packed with characters as it is, with this season presumably also needing to at least briefly introduce Ralph Dibny, Dinah/Black Canary, and Zari during Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow respectively as viewers - in theory - watch all four shows. That really doesn't give a lot of time to introduce another ARGUS leader or shady government character. 

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3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

It wasn't a typo, I didn't mean "break up". I meant they broke the Diggles for me, as in "ruined", but it would be way, way, way too strong of a word. I loved them, but during the little I saw of them after the most gratuitous sexist move baby change, somehow it wasn't the same for me. Now I still love them but they wouldn't be a deal-breaker like they used to be (even though I wasn't quite serious about that BC thing).

Are you holding it against Dyla that the showrunners swapped out their child? They didn't trade in their girl for a boy. Guggenheim/Kreisberg did that. It seems to me that if a character is to be blamed/punished for that shenanigan it's Barry Allen. Or am I just getting the wrong end of the stick here?

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13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Are you holding it against Dyla that the showrunners swapped out their child? They didn't trade in their girl for a boy. Guggenheim/Kreisberg did that. It seems to me that if a character is to be blamed/punished for that shenanigan it's Barry Allen. Or am I just getting the wrong end of the stick here?

I said quite clearly that "they" (as in the writers) broke the Diggles. So yeah, completely the wrong end. And for the record, I blame Barry Allen for everything that went awry with the Arrowverse, namely introducing superpowers and metahumans.

The writers didn't care enough about the Diggles to respect their family as it was, so I probably disengaged at some level. It's very had to explain an impression based on couple of scenes I saw months ago, but the spark was gone and Lyla felt different to me (that's why I supposed she could have been retconned somehow).

2 hours ago, quarks said:

I have to agree that Arrow has a history of killing off women to create manpain/drama for Oliver. Otherwise, though, I'd argue the opposite, that Lyla is one of the least expendable characters in the Arrowverse, and certainly the least expendable minor character in the Arrowverse. Not because of the Lyla/Diggle relationship, but because:

Your reasoning makes sense. So did keeping Sara as the Black Canary and getting rid of dead weight Laurel back in S2. Not what happened. I also agree that Lyla's satellite status might save her and again, I hope so.

3 hours ago, WindofChange said:

If she was expendable then I feel like the writers would've just written her off completely by now after seeing people respond to Digg/Dinah's chemistry. But instead we're seeing the EPs go out of their way to assure everyone nothing is happening between Digg/Dinah and that Digg is married to Lyla and nothing is happening with that.

Exactly like they did with Felicity/Oliver vs Laurel/Oliver during S1-B, and a good chunk of S2. Remember when even the biggest Olicity shippers weren't sure it would happen, and didn't even dare to dream about an end game because Word of God was "Laurel + Oliver = Destiny!"? Gregory House would have a field trip with showrunners and TV writers, they lie even more than politicians.  Although TPTB might still hold on to the idea of doing Oliver/Dinah at one point, in which case the Diggles are entirely safe from the GA/BC destineeee.

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think that's true at all. Arrow has gone out of its way not to secure talent they had legit plans for (Summer Glau, Katrina Law, Dude that played WildCat, and all the way back in S1 when they lost Colin Salmon).

I think they changed their minds and dropped those plans, or the character was rather a flop (Summer Glau) so they didn't secure those actors. Moreover, most of those characters didn't last a season. Lyla has been around since S1, she's one of the lead characters's wife. I didn't know she regularly recurred on the Flash/crossovers and it seems more, and more regular, than those who got a DC multi-show pass. So it's extremely weird to me that the actress doesn't have a contract (unless she's bound to another much more successful show). I deduce they don't care enough. I'll happily be wrong.

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3 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I think they changed their minds and dropped those plans, or the character was rather a flop (Summer Glau) so they didn't secure those actors. 

They flat out said they lost Summer Glau, WildCat and Colin Salmon to other contracts. Katrina Law was a blatant where the fuck did she go, oh shucks she's too busy now.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Although TPTB might still hold on to the idea of doing Oliver/Dinah at one point, in which case the Diggles are entirely safe from the GA/BC destineeee.

Why not both? I mean, if the writers were going to pair up Dinah with a married man, why would they rule out pairing her up with his best friend afterwards?

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5 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Why not both? I mean, if the writers were going to pair up Dinah with a married man, why would they rule out pairing her up with his best friend afterwards?

You're right, I underestimated them. Although in my defense, it came  to my mind that they might pair her with a divorced/widowed man only. Because of the manpain bonus and all.

15 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They flat out said they lost Summer Glau, WildCat and Colin Salmon to other contracts. Katrina Law was a blatant where the fuck did she go, oh shucks she's too busy now.

They said. Maybe it wasn't just PR talk, but if so they should have learned by now, and I think they did with the DC multi-pass. But still, they seemingly didn't ensure that a character like Lyla stays on board.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

Exactly like they did with Felicity/Oliver vs Laurel/Oliver during S1-B, and a good chunk of S2. Remember when even the biggest Olicity shippers weren't sure it would happen, and didn't even dare to dream about an end game because Word of God was "Laurel + Oliver = Destiny!"? Gregory House would have a field trip with showrunners and TV writers, they lie even more than politicians.  Although TPTB might still hold on to the idea of doing Oliver/Dinah at one point, in which case the Diggles are entirely safe from the GA/BC destineeee.

If I recall correctly they never ever flat out said Oliver/Felicity won't happen. Not only that but you're comparing 2 wildly different cases. Oliver was single at the time. Diggle is now married and has a daughter with Lyla.

Olicity shippers not knowing whether it would happen imo isn't because of the writers - it's because they knew comic canon. 

Not only that, but Oliver/Dinah won't ever be happening and I'm pretty certain on this based on 3 things. The fact that they're putting so much effort into showing that Oliver/Felicity are such a healthy couple, the fact that they're giving Felicity episodes to bond with William, and 

Spoiler

 that they're putting a lot of effort into Oliver/Felicity getting married during the crossover and basically dedicating it to Oliver figuring out the meaning of true love.

None of that screams that the writers are holding onto the idea of Dinah/Oliver especially when you also consider they've pretty much carefully avoided scenes between Dinah/Oliver to the point where it really doesn't seem that they're friends, they're just colleagues. 

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50 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

But still, they seemingly didn't ensure that a character like Lyla stays on board.

The issue is Lyla is a supporting character of a supporting character.  The show can't give the actress enough work for her to be willing to sign a contract that would secure her for Arrow's use. She's been a regular on at least two shows since Arrow and had she been secured by Arrow, she wouldn't have been able to do that.  Unless they wanted Lyla in 13 episodes or more, a contract of that kind just doesn't make business sense from either side.  

I'm sure it has meant not being able to have her sometimes when they really wished they could but both Arrow and Audrey have gone out of their way to make her appearances happen.  

I'll never rule anything out forever, but it would fundamentally change who Diggle is as a character if they lost Lyla as an option.  If she died, I don't think they could justify Diggle still being on the team.  If they broke up, it would alter what he represented to Oliver as someone that has work/family life balance figured out.  Plus in addition to how handy it is to have access to ARGUS through her, she's the convenient reason JJ isn't always a topic.  

Right now Dinah is being taken and explored as a character in a direction away from hooking her up with Diggle and so I'm confident that what TPTB are saying is accurate for now.  And for now, that's good enough for me.  The disadvantages to putting them together outweigh any chemistry.  

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1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I said quite clearly that "they" (as in the writers) broke the Diggles. So yeah, completely the wrong end. And for the record, I blame Barry Allen for everything that went awry with the Arrowverse, namely introducing superpowers and metahumans.

I'm sorry. I quite clearly did not see that part. Apologies.

I will say I'm still not seeing how that switch makes you not like Dyla as a couple. But thanks for answering.

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1 hour ago, WindofChange said:

If I recall correctly they never ever flat out said Oliver/Felicity won't happen. Not only that but you're comparing 2 wildly different cases. Oliver was single at the time. Diggle is now married and has a daughter with Lyla.

Olicity shippers not knowing whether it would happen imo isn't because of the writers - it's because they knew comic canon. 

Not only that, but Oliver/Dinah won't ever be happening and I'm pretty certain on this based on 3 things. The fact that they're putting so much effort into showing that Oliver/Felicity are such a healthy couple, the fact that they're giving Felicity episodes to bond with William, and 

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 that they're putting a lot of effort into Oliver/Felicity getting married during the crossover and basically dedicating it to Oliver figuring out the meaning of true love.

None of that screams that the writers are holding onto the idea of Dinah/Oliver especially when you also consider they've pretty much carefully avoided scenes between Dinah/Oliver to the point where it really doesn't seem that they're friends, they're just colleagues. 

They swore that a couple was destined to be together, and another couple happened instead. In this perspective, that would pretty much be the same case of figure.

I'd say "don't shoot the messenger", but I'm not even the messenger. I'm now a veeeery casual viewer, I made a few observations about this episode. My uninformed  impressions (I don't, and don't intend to read spoilers since I probably won't even watch this week's outing) aren't theories or predictions. I meant to say, TPTB hurt the show in its earlier seasons by trying to make GA/BC happen, they ruined Oliver/Felicity's steady relationship in one episode in S4-A. So an attempt at GA/BC is still a possibility. I'm the first to regret it, but "won't ever happen" doesn't work 99.99% of the time on ongoing TV shows.

50 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Right now Dinah is being taken and explored as a character in a direction away from hooking her up with Diggle and so I'm confident that what TPTB are saying is accurate for now.  And for now, that's good enough for me.  The disadvantages to putting them together outweigh any chemistry.  

I hope for good female characters that they'll keep on working out her appearances. And I don't know how it came across as that, but I'm not advocating a Dinah and Diggle pairing. In the two episodes I watched, including this one, I noticed they have chemistry. I don't dislike her. That's it.

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm sorry. I quite clearly did not see that part. Apologies.

I will say I'm still not seeing how that switch makes you not like Dyla as a couple. But thanks for answering.

No prob :) Obviously, I triggered something. It wasn't my intention. I'm not involved emotionally in Arrow anymore so I tend to forget how it is to be.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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39 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I meant to say, TPTB hurt the show in its earlier seasons by trying to make GA/BC happen, they ruined Oliver/Felicity's steady relationship in one episode in S4-A. So an attempt at GA/BC is still a possibility

Agreed. That one episode they had GA/BC have sex- even though she technically wasn't Black Canary at the time- back in season one before promptly dropping the relationship forever has definitely hurt Arrow 6 years later. I'm surprised it's made it this far to be honest. 

 

But to bring the topic back to the episode, I'm still not over how amazing this episode was and how balanced they can make everyone's roles now that they aren't burdened by the flash  backs. It's freed them up so much. 

 

Also underrated moment of the episode I'm giving to this:

 

I love Oliver's I'm watching you b***h in his inflection when he says they sure are back together. Plus Alena was so cute in that moment. It's like Oliver why you want to fight such a cute face? Ha. 

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1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

The more I watch this episode the more I adore Oliver for breezing around Star City in a gas mask and blending right in!

That was such a weird Arrowish romantic comedy moment when he took the mask off! 

Some guys stand out side in the rain with a boom box some guys walk around the city in a gas mask and beat the crap out of three dudes. ?

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I didn't realize the guy in the gas mask was Oliver at first because of the way he walked. It must've been SA's stunt double. It wasn't until he started to fight those guys that I was like "Ohhhh." Haha.

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1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

But to bring the topic back to the episode, I'm still not over how amazing this episode was and how balanced they can make everyone's roles now that they aren't burdened by the flash  backs. It's freed them up so much. 

To me, it feels balanced because Original Team Arrow had most of the screen time. It's when other characters get the spotlight that the episode feels odd. I think that's why I didn't like the first two episodes. The extra screen time for Dinah just make the episodes feel out of whack. I have a feeling this will continue throughout the season if she keeps getting more storyline.

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I found it hard to believe that a KC episode could be as great as everyone said it was but damn it turned out to be awesome. I loved everything about this even if Black Siren was superfluous and annoying. This was Arrow at its best. 

 

On 08/11/2017 at 7:14 AM, Happy Harpy said:

I said quite clearly that "they" (as in the writers) broke the Diggles. So yeah, completely the wrong end. And for the record, I blame Barry Allen for everything that went awry with the Arrowverse, namely introducing superpowers and metahumans.

On 08/11/2017 at 8:56 AM, catrox14 said:

I'm sorry. I quite clearly did not see that part. Apologies.

I will say I'm still not seeing how that switch makes you not like Dyla as a couple. But thanks for answering.

 

I feel exactly the same way.  Him reuniting with Lyla and having a baby girl and naming it Sara was this hugely important thing. To me "oh, now the baby is a boy called JJ" was the writers basically saying they couldn't really give a shit about these characters. The fact that Diggle has a family is just this thing he says in passing these days. He's never seen knocking off early to see them, he's never shown talking to Lyla about their ridiculous schedules (and you don't need the other actor to do that) and he's never seen with his son or talking about his son. I regularly forget that Diggle is supposed to have this family. The writers clearly don't care about it or they wouldn't have pulled something like that. Can you imagine if Thea had become Theo and Oliver had a brother instead of a sister? People would be outraged.

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1 minute ago, AudienceofOne said:

The writers clearly don't care about it or they wouldn't have pulled something like that. Can you imagine if Thea had become Theo and Oliver had a brother instead of a sister? People would be outraged.

If you are so inclined to seek them out, I made quite a few posts here in which I pitched a shit fit over them swapping baby Sara for John Jr.  The difference for me is that John and Lyla didn't swap the child voluntarily. Barry's actions (and the producers caused that to happen). I hold it against the showrunners not the characters.

On 11/7/2017 at 3:23 PM, LeighAn said:

Agreed. That one episode they had GA/BC have sex- even though she technically wasn't Black Canary at the time- back in season one before promptly dropping the relationship forever has definitely hurt Arrow 6 years later. I'm surprised it's made it this far to be honest. 

 

But to bring the topic back to the episode, I'm still not over how amazing this episode was and how balanced they can make everyone's roles now that they aren't burdened by the flash  backs. It's freed them up so much. 

 

Also underrated moment of the episode I'm giving to this:

 

I love Oliver's I'm watching you b***h in his inflection when he says they sure are back together. Plus Alena was so cute in that moment. It's like Oliver why you want to fight such a cute face? Ha. 

Oliver is so not having anyone fuck with Felicity. It's beautiful.

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6 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I found it hard to believe that a KC episode could be as great as everyone said it was but damn it turned out to be awesome. I loved everything about this even if Black Siren was superfluous and annoying. This was Arrow at its best. 

 

 

I feel exactly the same way.  Him reuniting with Lyla and having a baby girl and naming it Sara was this hugely important thing. To me "oh, now the baby is a boy called JJ" was the writers basically saying they couldn't really give a shit about these characters. The fact that Diggle has a family is just this thing he says in passing these days. He's never seen knocking off early to see them, he's never shown talking to Lyla about their ridiculous schedules (and you don't need the other actor to do that) and he's never seen with his son or talking about his son. I regularly forget that Diggle is supposed to have this family. The writers clearly don't care about it or they wouldn't have pulled something like that. Can you imagine if Thea had become Theo and Oliver had a brother instead of a sister? People would be outraged.

It wasn't a KC episode. Emily Bett had the most screentime. They just don't know how to promote episodes. That's why at first people were apprehensive to watch because of the unbalanced undeserved promotion of it.

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I watched this episode again today. The most I've ever re-watched an episode in full is twice. Usually I tend to re-watch only the parts I enjoy and FF the rest. 

But I didn't just enjoy this episode because it was a Felicity one, with a great dose of Olicity. It's because it was actually fun? The pacing was right so it didn't drag and everything worked, IMO. Even the BS stuff. (Though I would prefer it if they eased up on BC/BS screeching at each other, it was only one scene this time so I can mostly ignore it.) The fact that we got to see Oliver's growth as a character was the cherry on top! ☺️

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Oliver and Felicity switch roles - while Black Siren increases her body count in Star City...

604 (Reversal) – Oliver Queen’s voiceover intro:
Oliver: “My name is Oliver Queen. After five years in hell, I returned home with only one goal - to save my city. But I couldn't honor that commitment and honor the promise I made to the mother of my son. So I asked the best man I know to help. His name is John Diggle, and he is the Green Arrow.”

604-Reversal – Black Siren kills a married accountant, who she meets and hooks up with at a bar:
(Black Siren, wearing a short black wig, enters a bar.)
Man: “Buy you a drink?”
Black Siren: “Whiskey, neat.”
Man: “Are you waiting for someone?”
Black Siren: “Is it too cheesy if I say you?”
Man: “I'll let it slide this time.”
Black Siren: “What about you? Let me guess. You're a numbers guy. You sit in front of a computer all day, and you came here to blow off some steam.”
Man: “You got me pegged. I think the bartender forgot your order.”
Black Siren: “I have a better idea.”
(Cut to outside bar, where Black Siren is kissing the man against an exterior wall. She sees his wedding ring.)
Black Siren: “Uh-oh. Looks like I know your dirty, little secret.”
Man: Oh, it's –“
Black Siren: “Shh. I won't tell if you won't tell.”
Man: “All right. You know my secret. Now… tell me one of yours.”
Black Siren: “Okay. Only if you promise not to tell anyone.”
Man: “Cross my heart and hope to die.”
(They continue to kiss. Then we hear a sonic scream.)

604 (Reversal) – Oliver and Felicity go on a date at a fancy restaurant:
Felicity: "Well, William did an excellent job picking out your tie."
Oliver: "Yeah. He was very excited. He wanted to come to dinner. I told him that Raisa was his date tonight."
Felicity: "Oh. Well, she's a lucky woman."
Oliver: "Has it, um, really been three years since the first time we did this?"
Felicity: "Yeah. Let's just hope that this date goes better than that one."
Oliver: "I think it will."
Felicity: "Don't jinx it."
Oliver: "Masked gunmen could come through the door, and it would have been better than our first dinner."
Felicity: "Only because we were not being blown up."
Oliver: "Well, you know, also because I wasn't ready, not the way I am now."
Felicity: "Well, now the time is right."
Oliver: "Yeah."
Woman: "Mr. Mayor."
Oliver: "Yes?"
Woman: "I--I'm sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to say that I'm voting against that awful anti-vigilante referendum."
Oliver: "Oh, that's very nice to hear.”
Woman: “Are you two back together? (Gasps) Such a sweet couple. Uh, well, enjoy your dinner."
Oliver: "Thank you. Don't forget to vote, okay?"
Felicity (softly laughing): "You pay her to say that?"
Oliver: "I had absolutely nothing to do with that."
Felicity: "Hmm. Well, I am the mayor's girlfriend now, so does that get me a break on my taxes, or maybe a pass on jury duty?"
Oliver: "I mean, I - I was gonna offer to bring you to a fundraiser."
Felicity: "Ehn."
Oliver: "I cannot tell you what it is if you're gonna keep making that face."
Felicity: "No. Sorry. It's just, you know... (Whispers) With Overwatch and the startup with Curtis and, you know, our old but new relationship, maybe we could... ease into some of the things."
Oliver: "Of course, of course. I love rolling to those things solo."
Felicity: "Yeah, you're lying."
Oliver: "I'm kidding. I'm - I'm really happy that you're busy, and I'm especially excited for - for this thing with Curtis because it - truth be told, it is important that you have something in your life that is not just the -"
(Felicity's phone beeps.)
Felicity: "The team."
Oliver: "Yes.
Felicity: "No. I mean - (Whispers) the team."
Oliver: "This is how it felt to be you, isn't it?"
Felicity: "Oh, yeah. I'm sorry."
Oliver: "Go."
(Felicity kisses Oliver all over his face and then leaves.)

604 (Reversal) – Team Arrow figures out that Black Siren is behind the recent murder; and Curtis tells Felicity to return to her date with Oliver:
Felicity (entering): "What's going on?"
Diggle: "Body dropped outside of a bar. Dinah's on the scene with S.C.P.D."
Dinah (over comms): "The vic was dead on arrival. (Siren sounds in the background) Paramedics are calling it internal hemorrhaging, but I'd recognize this kill from a mile away. Sonic scream did this an inch from his ear."
Felicity: "Ouch."
Diggle: "Laurel."
Dinah (over comms): "Witnesses saw the vic leaving with a woman - a brunette."
Curtis: "Maybe Laurel got a wig."
Dinah (over comms): "According to witnesses, they were very handsy with each other on the way out."
Curtis: "What do you guys think? Black Siren turned black widow? You know, because she mates and then kills."
Diggle: "Dinah, thanks. We'll take it from here."
Felicity: "Victim was an accountant named Jackson Klimavich."
Curtis: "No criminal record, boring job, really boring UpSwipes profile."
Felicity: "Well, he was married, so maybe not so boring."
Curtis: "Boring and scummy."
Rene (entering): "Sorry. Had to help Lance finish up the polling analysis. Star City stands at 70% against the anti-vigilante legislation."
Curtis: "That's 70% for us, accounting for the double negative you just used."
Felicity: "Yeah, but after everything this team has done for the city--"
Diggle: "You'd think it'd be higher."
Felicity: "Yeah."
Rene: "What'd I miss?"
Curtis: "Evil Laurel seduced a guy and then killed him."
Rene: "Why?"
Diggle: "That's what we have to figure out, but first, we have to find her. Laurel's been in the wind way too long."
Felicity: "We're on it."
Curtis: "Speaking of being on it, did you mail out our articles of incorporation?"
Felicity: "Heh."
Curtis: "For our startup. The documents required to, you know, start it up."
Felicity: "Oh, my God. They are in a manila envelope on my countertop. I had every intention of mailing them. I was just telling Oliver how I'm being stretched too thin."
Curtis: "Wait a minute. What do you mean by 'just'?"
Felicity: "We were at dinner, and then I got your text."
Curtis: "Felicity."
Felicity: "No. It's the job. It's okay."
Curtis: "No, no, no. This is all on me. I 9-1-1-ed you over one dead body. Can you still make it out to dessert?"
Felicity: "Well, no. We have to find Evil Laurel."
Curtis: "No, no, no. I will find Evil Laurel. You go out there and take your ass back and get your man."
Felicity: "Are you sure?"
Curtis: "Are you kidding me? I was, like, you guys' biggest shipper. I feel like the reconciliation taking effect is, like, kind of on me."
Felicity: "You're amazing."
Curtis: "Right. I'm terrific."
Felicity: "Well -"
Curtis: "Is that getting old?"
Felicity: "I kind of like it."
Curtis: "You like?"
Felicity: "Yeah. Oh, I need this."
Curtis: "Still cool."
Felicity: "All right."
Curtis: "Go, go."

604 (Reversal) – Alena is waiting for Felicity in her loft and asks for Felicity's help in stopping Cayden James:
Felicity (on phone): "I'm so sorry that I had to bail on dinner, but I'm - I'm home now if you want to, uh, come by for some dessert... (Laughs) Yes. Yes. That was intentionally suggestive... Okay. Uh, well, good. I'll see you soon." (Ends call)
(Felicity sees someone's reflection in the knives in the knife stand and picks up a knife.)
Felicity: "Nice try, but I wasn't born - Alena."
Alena: "You always announce your attacks like that?"
Felicity: "What are you doing in my apartment?!"
Alena: "You'd think a computer hacker would know better than to install a smart-lock on her door."
Felicity: "I mean, what are you doing here?"
Alena: "I need your help."
Felicity: "You you or - or Helix you?"
Alena: "Does it matter?"
Felicity: "Let's pretend for a second that it does. (Sees bruise on Alena's face) Who gave you that?"
Alena: "Cayden James. He's working on something terrible - something that will hurt the entire world, and I need your help to stop him."
*  *  *
Felicity: "I helped you break Cayden James out of A.R.G.U.S. custody. I went against my friends, I went against my team, because you told me that Cayden James was a good man."
Alena: "You did it because Cayden could help you find Adrian Chase, and he delivered."
Felicity: "So at what point did he become a criminal mastermind?"
Alena: "I don't know. At some point during his eight months in A.R.G.U.S. custody. They held him in a glorified shipping container, Felicity. Nutrition withholding. Sensory deprivation. They broke him."
Felicity: "Well, in that case, he should be in a funny farm somewhere. He shouldn't be planning the end of the world. Actually, how do I know that you being here isn't part of his plan?"
Alena: "Because I could never go along with what I suspect he's planning, Felicity. I am a hacktivist, not a monster."
Felicity: "You say he has plans to hurt the world? How?"
Alena: "I don't know exactly what he is planning, but I saw a casualty estimate, and the most conservative estimate is 4% collateral damage."
Felicity: "4% of what?"
Alena: "The world population."
Felicity: "That's almost 300 million people."
Alena: "If we try and hack his servers, we might be able to figure out what he's planning."
Felicity: "Okay. Where is he now?"
Alena: "Corto Maltese, but I came here because I didn't know who else to reach out to. Will you help me?"
Felicity: "We set Cayden James loose, Alena. Of course I'm helping."

604-Reversal – Diggle, Dinah, Curtis and Rene find out that Black Siren killed a college librarian:
Diggle: “Looks like the same M. O.”
Rene: “Did Laurel also make out with this one first? It's a legitimate investigatory question.”
Dinah: “Cause of death was the same. This was definitely Laurel.”
Curtis: “Yeah. Victimology was similar, too, insofar that this woman is just as boring as the first guy.”
Diggle: “College librarian may even be more boring.”
Rene: “Maybe Laurel's killing for sport.”
Diggle: “Doesn't sound like her.”
Dinah: “Black Siren's not the Laurel you remember, remember?”
Diggle: “Any word on tracking her down?”
Curtis: “Nothing useable from the CCTV cams we found on either crime scene.”
Dinah: “Forensics is a dead end, as well.”
Diggle: “And Felicity?”
Curtis: “I tried texting her, but she hasn't hit me back.”
Diggle: “Fine. Let's hit the streets. Someone has to be able to help us find Laurel.”
Curtis: “What about me? Um, I want to hit the streets, too, and maybe a couple of bad guys.”
Diggle: “Curtis, with Felicity AWOL, we need tech. Keep working that angle.”
Curtis: “I--I've been working that angle.”

604 (Reversal) – Felicity and Alena unsuccessfully try to hack Cayden's servers from the loft:
Felicity: "Another dead end."
Alena: "Did you try spoofing the subarray?"
Felicity: "Yeah."
Alena: "Okay. What about the -"
Felicity: "Yeah, but these firewalls are crafted. I mean, the protection protocols are just - "
Alena: "Art."
Felicity: "Well, I was gonna say impenetrable, but yeah, that, too."
Alena: "Cayden'd be the only one who could get onto Cayden's system."
Felicity: "Oh, my God. You're a genius. You're a genius. We need to convince Cayden's system that we're him."
Alena: "That's like saying all we need is a trillion dollars."
Felicity: "No, no, no. We have to work off Cayden's system."
Alena: "I told you he's in Corto Maltese."
Felicity: "Yeah, but Helix is right here."
Alena: "We cleared the place out, Felicity. It's sanitized."
Felicity: "But what about the wiring, the digital infrastructure?"
Alena: "That's proprietary, Cayden's own design. We left that in place."
Felicity: "That'll work. Let's get the gear."
Alena: "Does that include a ghost drive because we're gonna need that to get into Cayden's system. I know a guy. Whoa! What's all this?"
Felicity: "Oh, just some stuff for a startup that Curtis and I are trying to start up."
Alena: "Oh, good for you. You guys are funded?"
Felicity: "Well, seed money from our reputation of being geniuses at Palmer Tech, though I'd feel more like a genius if I knew what we were starting up. We're thinking something in the smart home area."
Alena: "You're joking."
Felicity: "No."
Alena: "You left Helix -"
Felicity: "I was kicked out of Helix by you."
Alena: "To make home appliances? I thought you wanted to change the world."
Felicity: "I thought you wanted to change the world, and look where you ended up. Sorry. That's - I didn't -"
Alena: "No. We should go."
Felicity: "We should go. Okay. We good?"
Alena: "Mm-hmm."
(Felicity opens the door to leave, and Oliver is standing there about to knock on the door.)
Felicity: "Oliver! Hey! Hi. What are you doing here?"
Oliver: "You invited me."
Felicity: "That's right."
Oliver: "What is she doing here?"
Alena: "Hi. I'm just gonna go over there."
Felicity: "Okay. Come in. I know how much you love to say, 'I told you so' -"
Oliver: "No, that's you."
Felicity: "So consider this an early Christmas gift. Cayden James is a bad person, and he's planning on doing a bad thing."
Oliver: "Are you sure that you can trust her?"
Felicity: "I wouldn't exactly use the word 'trust.'"
Oliver: "Then wherever you're going, I'm going, too."
Felicity: "No. This isn't your life anymore. No."
Oliver: "At least tell the team what you're doing."
Felicity: "I will tell them. I will call them on my way. And then, when I am done, we can finish dinner, starting with dessert. Alena!"
Alena: "Uhm. Didn't know you guys were back together."
Oliver: "Sure are."

604-Reversal – Black Siren kills a girl in an underground parking garage and steals the dead girl’s shoes:
(Girl is walking to her car in an underground parking garage and drops her keys.)
Black Siren (in casual clothes): “Excuse me.”
Girl: “Ohh!”
Black Siren (holding out the car keys): “Here you go.”
Girl: “Oh, thanks. I'm such a klutz.”
Black Siren: “Don't worry. Me, too. I love your shoes. They're so cute.”
Girl: “Custom-designed. Girls can rock limited edition kicks, too, right?”
Black Siren: “Absolutely. I'm Dinah, by the way.”
Girl: “Jenny.”
Black Siren: “It's really nice to meet you.”
*  *  *
Curtis: “I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. Laurel's cry resonates in the terahertz range, which can be triangulated according to geography.”
Dinah: “Was I supposed to understand a single word of that, or are you talking to yourself?”
Curtis: “Sorry. Short version is, I think I figured out a way to find Evil Laurel by tracking her sonic cry.”
Dinah: “Meaning if she uses it, we can find her.”
Curtis: “Yeah, only problem being, it means someone's probably in trouble – whoa! (Computer beeping) Talk about timing.”
Dinah: “Yeah. So that means she just used it, right?”
Curtis: “Mm-hmm.”
Dinah: “Where?”
Curtis: “A parking garage between Marleau and Hainesly.”
Dinah: “I'll tell John and Rene.”
*  *  *
Diggle: “Nothing on Level C.”
Rene: “D is clear.”
Curtis: “A is empty, except for a sweet-ass Corvette someone left overnight.”
(Dinah finds the girl’s dead body in the parking garage.)
Dinah: “Guys. We're too late.”
Black Siren (wearing the dead girl’s shoes): “Actually, you're right on time. (Sonic screams Dinah off her feet) My mistake for dawdling, I guess. It's just - it's just she's so, so pretty. I really wanted to hold her hand until the end came.”
Dinah: “You are one twisted bitch.”
Black Siren: “That really hurts my feelings.”
(Dinah sonic screams at Black Siren, who flees the garage.)

604 (Reversal) – Felicity and Alena go to a night club to talk to Amnesiac about getting a ghost mirror drive:
Felicity: "Okay. You couldn't have told me to change?"
Alena: "Well, you look great."
Felicity: "We here for a GMD or an acid trip-techno freak show?"
Alena: "Both if you want. Okay. So the dealer's name is Amnesiac, but I have no idea how to find him. Well -"
(Felicity gets bumped.)
Felicity: "Whoa! Okay. Rude. Maybe that door guarded by the three scary dudes with chains for brains. They look friendly. Hello."
Chains: "You lost?"
Felicity: "No. We're here to see -"
Alena: "Amnesiac."
Felicity: "Mm-hmm. Yep. Now!"
(Goons grab Felicity and Alena and hustle them into an office.)
Felicity: "Oh! Okay! That turned!"
Alena: "I don't think we should go in here."
Felicity: "Hands off! Easy, chrome dome!"
Amnesiac: "Forgive my thuggish compatriots. I pay them to uphold a certain aesthetic."
Felicity: "You're Amnesiac?"
Amnesiac: "Your shock is exactly what this establishment aims to cultivate. Now what brings you here?"
Alena: "We need a ghost mirror drive."
Amnesiac: "What for?"
Felicity: "That's our business."
Amnesiac: "And selling illegal tech is mine, and I only get to stay in business by avoiding legal entanglements. Everything about you two screams narc."
Felicity: "Well -"
(Masked man bursts through the door and takes down all the men, including Amnesiac.)
Oliver (unmasking as the masked man): "No, no, no! Don't shoot. It's me!"
Felicity: "Oliver?"
Oliver: "Are you okay?"
Felicity: "No! What the hell are you doing here?"
Oliver: "Trying to keep you safe. I saw the guys take you!"
Felicity: "Yeah. Those guys were taking me to this guy, who was gonna give us what we needed to stop Cayden James. But now they won't because you kicked the crap out of them. God. You screwed up everything."
*  *  *
Oliver: "He said he thought you were police."
Felicity: "You know, me not wanting your help tonight doesn't have to do with me just needing to do this alone. It has to do with me wanting to protect you. I was trying to protect you. You are under 24/7 surveillance from the FBI right now. What if somebody saw you?"
Oliver: "I can handle it! What I cannot handle and will not stand for is you going off after a criminal without backup."
Felicity: "I get that, but I don't need that right now. What I need - what I need is a ghost mirror drive, and I need to get Alena out of here before they all come to."
Oliver: "Felicity."
Felicity: "We will talk about this later."

604 (Reversal) – Diggle, Dinah, Curtis and Rene discuss Black Siren’s three seemingly random killings:
Curtis: “Another boring person.”
Rene: “Disrespect the dead much?”
Diggle: “He's right. No connections, no money to speak of, no apparent benefit to killing three different people at random.”
Dinah (entering): “They weren't random. Autopsies finally came back on all three victims. Apart from all three being thoroughly unremarkable, they had one other thing in common.” (Hands file to Curtis)
Curtis (looking at file): “All three had traces of Dimotex 75 on their hands.”
Dinah: “Dimotex is an adhesive polymer. It's used on the streets to rip off fingerprints.“
Diggle: “Laurel was stealing fingerprints.”
Rene: “Why would somebody want to collect the fingerprints of three nobodies?”
Curtis: “And I disrespect the dead?”
(Monitor shows the profiles of the three vicitms, Veronica Medina, a librarian at Star City University; Jackson Klimavich, an accountant in downtown Star City; and Jenny Johnson, a freelance IT person.)
Diggle: “They're not nobodies. They're invisible. Boring jobs, no connection to community. What makes them remarkable is just how unremarkable they are.”
Rene: “What are you saying, Hoss - I mean, Boss?”
Diggle: “What if these people's backgrounds are just a cover? They're boring by design to be invisible.”
Dinah: “So you're saying they're all some kind of covert operatives?”
Diggle: “They could be anything, but whatever they're dealing with is big enough that they needed a cover.”
Rene: “Be nice to know. Then we could figure out who Laurel's going after next.”
Dinah: “Anybody got a crystal ball?”
Curtis: “I might not be able to figure out where she's headed, but I might be able to figure out where she was. Now, sonic cries leave ripples in the air. I might be able to backtrace where Laurel's been and maybe even find out a pattern, maybe even determine where she's operating out of.”
Diggle: “I heard two ‘mights’ and two ‘maybes’, but I'll take it. In the meantime, I'll try to raise Felicity. If anyone can hack through these covers to these people's real identities, it's her.”

604 (Reversal) – Felicity and Alena go to the old Helix headquarters to try to hack into Cayden's servers, but they are ambushed by Cayden James, Black Siren and other minions:
Felicity: "Wow. Love what you haven't done with the place."
Alena: "The Cat-5 hookups are there and back there."
Felicity: "Yeah. (Phone rings) One sec. (On phone) Hey, John."
Diggle (on phone): "Hey. Did you decide to take a vacation?"
Felicity (on phone): "Uh, no. Sorry. I just have a situation here."
Diggle (on phone): "Yeah. Well, Curtis told me about the startup."
Felicity (on phone): "No. This isn't about the company. This is about Cayden James, and I don't have time to talk to you about it right now, but you were right and I was wrong about breaking him out of A.R.G.U.S."
Diggle (on phone): "Felicity, listen."
Felicity (on phone): "I'm in Helix right now. I'm just gonna clear up the situation real quick. I will be back at the Bunker before you know it, I promise."
Diggle (on phone): "All right, but get back here soon. We need you."
Felicity (on phone): "I'm on it." (Hangs up) 
*  *  *
Felicity: "Every file in here is labeled Arclight."
Alena: "Must be a code name for whatever James is planning."
Felicity: "Now the question is, what is the plan?"
(Black Siren appears and screams. Then Cayden James and his minions are there.)
Alena: "You're supposed to be in Corto Maltese."
Felicity: "This is Cayden James?"
Cayden: "No, Miss Smoak. I'm Cayden James. Very nice to finally make your acquaintance."
*  *  *
Cayden: "In case you're curious about why I'm here, it's not nostalgia. (To Alena) It's you. We never finished our conversation in Corto Maltese, which is where you thought I was, because you've been pinging my cell. I was hurt. Truly. Not the betrayal so much as the naiveté of someone I thought had potential. I'm sorry, Miss Smoak. I'm afraid you're what's known as collateral damage. Horrible waste of talent. (To his minion) Make it as humane as possible." (Leaves)
Minion (“Boots”): "One shot. You won't even know."
(Team Arrow enters to rescue them.)
Felicity: "Get down! Get down."
(Fight ensues.)
Felicity: How'd you guys know we needed you - not that I'm complaining."
Diggle: "Felicity."
Felicity (seeing Alena's bullet wound): "Oh! Alena!"
Diggle: "Call an ambulance!"
Felicity: "Stay with me. Stay with me. Stay with me. Alena. It's bad. It's really bad. Alena!"

604 (Reversal) – Felicity finds the connection between Black Siren’s three victims:
Dinah: "How is she?"
Felicity: "Stabilized. The next couple hours will tell her story. Um, I air-gapped her IC room just in case. If Cayden tried to kill her by hacking her hospital equipment, he can't."
Diggle: "Hey. You all right?"
Felicity: "Am I all right... that I broke a genius madman out of prison who's apparently working with the psychopath version of Laurel? Am I okay that I didn't see what was right in front of my face and now Alena might die? What the hell do you think? Sorry. It's not you I'm mad at."
Diggle: "I know that, but right now, we need you."
Felicity: "I know. Curtis."
Curtis: "All set. Did everything just like you told me. I softened the beach, so now you can, you know, do your thing."
Felicity: "Well, I couldn't do that before because of Cayden. (Works on computer) All right. I'm in. Oh, John was right. They were hiding their identities because they are really important."
Rene: "John thought they were some kind of spies or something."
Curtis: "More like 'something.' All three are access managers to the IDND, International Domain Name Directory."
Dinah: "Let's just pretend for a second only you and Felicity know what that is."
Felicity: "The Internet is run on domain names. You start messing with them, and you start collapsing whole parts of the Internet."
Diggle: "So Laurel's stealing fingerprints?"
Felicity: "To gain access, I guess."
Rene: "But why steal three sets of fingerprints? Wouldn't one do the job?"
Felicity: "No. The Internet is divided into sections so not one person can take it down all at once, and each manager controls a section."
Curtis: "And all three would be needed to access the master vault, which oversees all sections."
Diggle: "All right. So Cayden James wants to take down the Internet. Can he actually do that?"
Felicity: "If you destroy the vault, yes."
Dinah: "And then what, I can't send an e-mail? I mean, so what?"
Felicity: "No. The Internet controls everything now-- electricity, water supply, hospital equipment."
Curtis: "Also planes, trains, and automobiles."
Felicity: "Alena said that Cayden's casualty estimate was 300 million people."
Curtis: "Actually, that sounds low."
Felicity: "Yeah. I don't disagree. This is all my fault."
Diggle: "All right. Let's keep our focus here. So James and his people want to hit this vault. Do we have a location on it?"
Curtis: "The location is so classified that they don't even have a word for how classified it is."
Felicity: "Be that as it may, I have a hack running that will give us the location soon."
Diggle: "Good, which means you can get home, take a shower, clear your head maybe."
Felicity: "I'm fine."
Diggle: "It's not a request, Felicity."

604 (Reversal) – Oliver and Felicity have a heart-to-heart talk where their roles are reversed from past conversations:
(Oliver knocks on Felicity's door.)
Felicity: "Hi."
Oliver: "Hey. John told me what happened."
Felicity: "Hmm. So I'm guessing this little visit is his idea of therapy."
Oliver: "Actually, I'm thinking that he probably wanted you to speak to one of the world's leading experts in guilt and regret."
Felicity: "Hmm."
Oliver: "What's happening now is not your fault."
Felicity: "Is that what I sounded like all these years?"
Oliver: "No. You sounded smarter."
Felicity: "How did you do it? How did you balance being the Green Arrow, the mayor, a boyfriend, a brother? How did - how did you... do it all by yourself?"
Oliver: "I - I didn't do it all by myself. I had you."
Felicity: "Yeah. Well, I know you're just saying that to get boyfriend points, and it's working."
Oliver: "I'm being serious, Felicity. Even if we weren't together, you were always there with me, always there to talk me out of stuff, to help me be the Green Arrow. You were literally in my ear every second that I was in the field. And that's why I followed you to the club tonight. Because I - I wanted the chance to be there for you the way that you've been there for me."
Felicity: "Well, then what would I say to you in this situation?"
Oliver: "You would tell me that when I - you - ahem - freed Cayden James, 'I did it' because, at the moment, at that time, in your heart, you thought it was right."
Felicity: "Yeah."
Oliver: "But you would tell me not to live in the past. You would tell me to make it right in the present. You would tell me to trust myself."
Felicity: "Well, I am very smart, apparently."
Oliver: "So smart."
(Felicity phone rings. Curtis' name appears on phone.)
Felicity: "Sorry. This is becoming a habit."
Oliver: "It is, and I am incredibly proud."

604-Reversal – Black Siren kills a building guard at the International Domain Name Directory (IDND) vault:
(An injured and bleeding guard tries to drag himself on the floor down the hallway, away from Black Siren, Cayden James and his minions.)
Guard: “Please. I have a wife… and two little girls.”
Black Siren: “Shh. I know. I had a family once.” (Snaps guard’s neck, killing him)

604 (Reversal) – Team Arrow, including Felicity, go to the master vault to stop Cayden from taking down the internet; Oliver provides backup from the Arrow Bunker:
Dinah: "He's gone."
Curtis: "Biometric hand scanners. So cool - except for the dead body part."
Diggle: "Stay sharp."
Rene: "This place is huge."
Felicity: "Yeah. Well, it has to be big to hold, you know, the whole Internet. This way. Cayden's overclocking the vault CPU."
Diggle: "English, Felicity."
Felicity: "He put a virus in the system that's gonna make the whole thing explode."
Rene: "That's a bit too much English."
Curtis: "How much time do we have before the vault goes boom?"
Felicity: "Six minutes. I think I can stop the virus. I just need - I just need one - I just need one minute."
Diggle: "There's no way Cayden James and Laurel are gonna let you just stand there and do that."
(Gunfire erupts.)
Diggle: "Get down!"
Dinah: "You weren't wrong."
*  *  *
(Cayden and Black Siren are in the processor control room.)
Black Siren: "Your men have engaged the targets."
Cayden: "Our men, Miss Lance. This partnership is a democracy after all. (Computer buzzes) Oh. Miss Smoak just appeared on the server. Clever girl. Her ingenuity never disappoints. I'm coding a little something to occupy her while I take my leave. Do the same for her friends, would you?"
*  *  *
Felicity: "No, no, no, no, no."
Rene: "'No' is not what we want to hear right now."
Felicity: "Cayden just used the processor's firewall to block me out. I can't take down the virus remotely now. I'm gonna have to do it on site before he turns this whole place into an ashtray, not to mention, you know, the Internet."
Curtis: "Where's the processor?"
Felicity: "Northwest quadrant."
Diggle: "Fine. We'll cover you. Delta formation."
(Team Arrow moves forward surrounding Felicity.)
Diggle: "Fall back!"
Rene: "We're outgunned here."
Diggle: "We've got you covered. Can you handle this?"
Felicity: "I can handle it. Just keep them off me for four minutes."
Diggle: "Go, go, go, go, go!"
(Felicity takes off on her own for the processor control room, trying to avoid Cayden's armed minions.)
Felicity: "Oh! Maybe doing this solo wasn't such a good idea."
Oliver (over comms): "Good thing you're not alone."
Felicity: "Oliver?"
Oliver (over comms): "Well, technically, if I'm in this chair, that makes me Overwatch."
Felicity: "You're in the Bunker?"
Oliver (over comms): "I am. You okay with that?"
Felicity: "I am all right with that. I am so all right with that. I'm epically all right with that, especially if you have eyes on this complex."
Oliver (over comms): "I think, I do. You've automated the system to the point that William could basically operate it."
Felicity: "Do you see the room in the far northwest quadrant?"
Oliver (over comms): "I do, but I also see 10 hostiles between you and it, so let me put you on the safest path. Take the corridor to your left."
Felicity (whispering): "Are you sure about that?"
Oliver (over comms): "Sorry. Right. Right. My left. Your right. There's a little bit of a learning curve here."
Diggle (over comms): "Overwatch, sitrep. Overwatch, what's your situation?"
Oliver (over comms): "She's fine. Stop... Go right... Under the door. 3, 2, 1."
Felicity: "Coast is clear."
Oliver (over comms): "Good."
Felicity: "I'm in. Cayden's not here. Time to get to work."
*  *  *
(Oliver remotely closes the door to the processor control room.)
Felicity: "Ohh! Oh! Thank you for that!"
Oliver (over comms): "Just wanted to give you a little time."
Felicity: "Yeah. Well, I'm gonna need it. I have to break through the processor's protective firewall to stop Cayden's virus, and the fact that the processor is exponentially overclocking and he's disabled the cooling system."
Oliver (over comms): "I did not understand a single word that you just said."
(Lights suddenly go out and are replaced by red lights and blaring sounds.)
Felicity: "Oh, well, you understand blaring noises and really scary lights, right?"
Oliver (over comms): "I know this. You can do it. I believe in you."
*  *  *
Diggle (over comms): "Overwatch, how we doing? Overwatch? (Regular lights come back on) Good job."
Felicity: "And we're not dead."
Oliver (over comms): "Told you."
(Felicity collapses in relief with her head on the computer counter)
Felicity: "You know, if this whole role reversal thing sticks around, you're really gonna have to adopt my saying of not saying 'I told you so.'"
Oliver (over comms): "You tell me you told me so."
Felicity: "Yeah, but not all the time. Heh. Thank you."
Oliver (over comms): "Well, I'm just glad I found a way to help."
Felicity: "Heh. You always do."
techno-babble.jpg?w=398&h=496

604 (Reversal) – Oliver makes it clear to the team that his help was a one-time thing:
Rene: "Thank God we saved the Internet. My fantasy football team was killing it this year."
Diggle: "So this new partnership - is it permanent?"
Oliver: "Certainly hope not."
Felicity: "I think Mayor Queen's probably too busy to be moonlighting as tech support. Besides, after all those years in the field, it'd be a shame if you went down for carpal tunnel."
Oliver: "All kidding aside - ahem - we need to focus on why Laurel has aligned herself with Cayden James. Those operatives, they were the same ones that we took out last month. (Silence) Sorry. Old habits. I will leave you to it."
Felicity: "I'll come with you. Gonna go tell Alena the good news."

604 (Reversal) – Felicity visits the injured Alena in the hospital:
Alena: "Thank you."
Felicity: "No, no. No need to thank me. Saving the world is kind of what we do, that and fixing our mistakes."
Alena: "None of this is on you, Felicity. I vouched for Cayden. You were just backing my play."
Felicity: "Yeah. Well, like you said, he changed."
Alena: "Yeah."
Felicity: "Now that you're no longer working for an evil uberhacker - I'm just assuming -"
Alena: "Mm-hmm."
Felicity: "Do you know what you're gonna do when you get out of here?"
Alena: "Hmm. I'm gonna take some time and gain some much needed perspective and then maybe, if you'll have me, come work for you at your startup."
Felicity: "Yeah. That'd be great."
Alena: "Yeah?"
Felicity: "Yeah, you should. I mean, maybe in a year or two, Curtis and I will actually have an idea of what to develop."
Alena: "Oh, I actually - I have a pitch for you on that."
Felicity: "Yeah?"
Alena: "Mm-hmm. Why did you get fired from Palmer Tech?"
Felicity: "Well, besides me being lousy at balancing my time and working with the team, the board actually violently resisted my -"
Alena: "Efforts to replicate your spinal implant."
Felicity: "Yeah."
Alena: "You've been looking for something to work on, something that would change the world, and you've literally been sitting on the right idea this whole time."
Felicity: "I couldn't figure out a way to affordably mass produce the implant at Palmer Tech."
Alena: "Now you have Curtis and no board oversight."
Felicity: "You know, Curtis and I have actually had a really hard time coming up with a name for the company, almost as hard of a time as we've had for a concept, so I was wondering how you would feel about me appropriating the name 'Helix'?"
Alena: "Well, I think you don't generally need to worry about criminal hackers coming after you for trademark infringement."
Felicity: "That's true."
Alena: "And I think it would be really nice to see something good come out of that name."
Felicity: "Helix Dynamics."
Alena: "That rolls off the tongue nicely. Cool logo possibilities, easily engravable on a Nobel medal."
Felicity: "Funny. Those are Curtis' criteria, too."
Alena: "Heh heh. It's possible."

604 (Reversal) – Oliver and Felicity's make-out session is again interrupted by a phone call:
(Oliver and Felicity are kissing.)
Oliver: "Mmm. Dinner went better than expected."
Felicity: "Can't believe we got through the whole thing, no interruptions... no armed assassins."
Oliver: "I, um, I still have room for dessert."
Felicity: "So do I."
(They collapse onto the sofa, still kissing, when a cell phone starts vibrating.)
Felicity: "Ah, sorry."
Oliver: "It's okay."
Felicity: "Sorry."
Oliver: "That's okay."
Felicity: "Sorry."
Oliver: "Oh!"
Felicity: "Not mine." (Hands phone to Oliver)
Oliver: "Thank you."
Felicity: "Hmph!"
Oliver: "One sec."
Felicity: "Yep. Okay."
Oliver: "Hello... Hi... Okay... I'll be there. Uh-uh. All right." (Ends call)
Felicity: "That didn't sound like John or the team."
Oliver: "It wasn't."
Felicity: "What's going on?"
Oliver: "That was Slade Wilson. He needs my help."

Edited by tv echo
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(edited)

Black Siren's 604 murders...

Black Siren deliberately lures and murders an accountant outside a bar (first half of this video):

(Legends-SuperFlarrow 423)

Black Siren deliberately murders a girl in an underground parking garage and wears the dead girl’s shoes:

(Legends-SuperFlarrow 423)

Black Siren deliberately murders a building guard at the International Domain Name Directory vault:

(Legends-SuperFlarrow 423)

Edited by tv echo
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