S08.E07: Jenelle vs Barb

[citychic]

It really hurts my heart to hear Jenelle treat Barb the way that she does, I haven't even watched this one yet.

This is personal to me because in another world I could be Barb.

My oldest son has special needs. It has been exhausting caring for him since he was born 24 years ago, and I've been a single mom since he was five. The last seven years I've had to spend 24/7 caring for his every need from feeding to bathing without help.

I see everyone bashing Barb on here for the way Jenelle turned out but remember Barb is just a person too. She's not a regular doctor, a mental doctor, a therapist, a dentist, or a finance manager, she's a mom. But when her kids needed extra help she had to become all of these things for all of these kids that she felt responsible for because she created them and her marriage dissolved and their dad took off.

She did the best that she could, we all do. And if my daughter was in that situation I would more than likely take on an additional grandchild too instead of letting the child go up for adoption...Talk about a heartwrenching decision for a grandma. No Barb sure isn't perfect, most of us aren't. I truly do have bi-polar disorder, been on a disability myself since 1998. It's hard when you're a little messed up yourself but you do what you have to do to make it work because you feel a responsibility to your kids.

I know it's hard and exhausting for me and I can't even work outside the home full time because of my full time job inside the home so I know Barb must be so tired. Remember she also has to handle banking and things for her son who's in a home plus she also has the other grandkids. 

I had to give up my entire life because of my son. I was never able to attend college or hold a full time job because when he was in trouble at school or needed help it was always my phone they called and he was my priority. My life has never been my own to enjoy. I've been accused of a lot of horrible things over the years in my care of my son  and been told I was a horrible mother many, many times because my son is not normal and I must have done something wrong. It hurts so hard to hear people say it's your fault as the mother that your kids turned out bad.  Don't judge until you've been in the situation, you have no idea what people are going through.

[CofCinci]

21 hours ago, Brooklynista said:

I hate how Janelle's abusive and now absentee father manages to escape so much of the blame for Janelle's behavior. It can't fall 100% on Barb.

Janelle idealized her father. He played for Steely Dan, y’all. She believes Barb ruined his dream just like Barb ruined hers. 

[BXD]

There is a very clear pattern here with Jenelle. When she has a guy in her life, she is unable to get along with her mother at all. When she is single, she manages to at least  have moments where she truly does seem like she appreciates and cares about her mom. It's really heartbreaking to see how easily manipulated she is by the guys she chooses to have in her life, especially David. He really is the worst of the bunch. #TeamKieffer 

[alexa]

14 minutes ago, BXD said:

There is a very clear pattern here with Jenelle. When she has a guy in her life, she is unable to get along with her mother at all. When she is single, she manages to at least  have moments where she truly does seem like she appreciates and cares about her mom. It's really heartbreaking to see how easily manipulated she is by the guys she chooses to have in her life, especially David. He really is the worst of the bunch. #TeamKieffer 

I know...it was amazing how every time she left the "guy", she would go back to Barb and be civil, and somewhat admit her faults--and try to start their relationship over.  Then another guy, and she is back at the same old behaviors.  Really does show how little influence Barb has compared to the guys.   I also agree about David versus Kieffer... Kieffer seemed almost super sweet compared to the rest....lol.  I loved that group hug thing and how Barb even chuckled at that.

Edited October 27, 2017 by alexa

[SmashleyMcSlayin]

12 hours ago, neenyah said:

 

I have to disagree on some points presented in this thread.

1) It was acceptable for young children to play outside by the road in an apartment complex.

I absolutely think it is not ok for a 6 and 8 year old to be totally unsupervised in a public area alongside the road. Not only are there physical hazards (playing by the road!) but in this sort of publicly trafficked area, who knows what could happen to them or what sort of predator could happen upon them? Not only was this not likely their first time outside alone, but they could easily be grabbed and driven off the main road with no one the wiser for quite a long time. By then they could be out of state, raped, sold into sex trafficking, or even murdered. 

Yeah, it's not ok to have little children to play outside unsupervised along the road in the public eye.  Wrong. Do we even believe this is the first time? No way. It's not even like they are on The Land playing in their own secluded space. Anyone can see and grab them.

2) Barb is 100% to blame for Jenelle's behavior. 

Since when is one parent the only one responsible for a child? And since when is a 25 year old adult and willing parent of MULTIPLE children not responsible for their own behavior. Yeah, Barb may be histrionic and a yeller and everything else, but she is not responsible for the impact that the absentee, abusive father had on their children, nor is she responsible for genetic predispositions of which she was not aware (or that possibly didn't come from her). She is also not responsible for the willing choices that Jenelle made to leave her child, steal from Barb, become a heroin addict, or deal with, become pregnant by, and marry various abusive men.

Two parents were involved with creating Jenelle, and she is now a grown woman responsible for herself. To blame Barb only is IMO, very short sighted, revisionist, and absolving jenelle of blame in all her fucked up ways. 

 

I will say in my uneducated yet personally experienced opinion, Jenelle suffers with Borderline Personality Disorder, which while really fucked up, doesn't absolve you from being a piece of shit asshole.

 

I’m a therapist and also believe she is borderline (obviously I’m not diagnosing someone I’ve never met, just my opinion). People with BPD are one of my favorite populations to work with because they can make huge progress when they really try. I wish Jenelle was motivated to make some changes. I think she could do really well in life if she would get some real help and take responsibility for herself.

[BXD]

8 minutes ago, alexa said:

I know...it was amazing how every time she left the "guy", she would go back to Barb and be civil, and somewhat admit her faults--and try to start their relationship over.  Then another guy, and she is back at the same old behaviors.  Really does show how little influence Barb has compared to the guys.   I also agree about David versus Kieffer... Kieffer seemed almost super sweet compared to the rest....lol.  I loved that group hug thing and how Barb even chuckled at that.

I always thought besides the drugs Kieffer wasn't really that terrible. (at least compared to the others) He treated her well, wasn't violent, and didn't force her to have a kid. And who really knows who was leading who into the hard drugs. Although I suppose not having a place to live or a job is kind of a deal breaker for me, personally...

[TresGatos]

4 hours ago, Fosca said:

For what it's worth (probably not much), Jenelle gave birth to Jace four months before she turned 18.  So when Barb kicked her out, Jenelle was legally an adult. 

And yes, no longer enabling a user by kicking them out might cause the person to have to re-evaluate the way they are living their life.

I had a horrible mother who brought horrible men into our lives. I became pregnant at 16 and on my 18th birthday my mother threw me out of the house with nothing but the clothes on my back and the baby in my arms but you know what? I am 100% responsible for my own life. I am responsible for maintaining employment, and earning a college degree from a 4 year university, and maintaining a marriage for 35 years, and for raining my own children, as flawed as I was at it. The way I was raised certainly influenced my (bad) choices and left me with issues I still deal with to this day but, bottom line, my mother was 100% responsible for her own life and I am 100% responsible for mine.

[GreatKazu]

7 hours ago, Booted said:

I am pretty sure Jenelle is trying to have very little interaction with Barb and there for will not be blaming Barb for what is going on in her life since Barb won't be in it. 

 

Really? Jenelle has continued to blame Barb for plenty of things. She took to social media recently to blame Barb because Doris, Nathan's mother, filed for custody of Kaiser. As if Doris, a retired social worker who specialized in abuse cases, doesn't have a reason or her own brain to make a decision to file a case concerning her own grandchild. Jenelle still blames her mother for the custody matter. Jenelle wasn't able to acquire full custody of Jace. Jenelle only received visitation. Jenelle blames her mother for not being in her wedding even though we all heard Jenelle say and post that Barb was not going to be invited. Her "whoa is me" because her mother wasn't going to be there to help her with her dress and her abusive dad wasn't there to walk her down the aisle. When CPS visited Jenelle recently she put the blame on Barb. Forget the fact Jenelle and David give CPS plenty of reasons to visit them. There are way more, but that is the gist of it. Jenelle will always blame Barb because that is how she operates. She will also continue to bash her mother because she has to parrot whatever David has to say about Barb, and he has plenty to say about her all the time. Jenelle blasted her mother recently at the reunion taping for daring to say "hi" to Nathan's girlfriend and acknowledging her. Jenelle's words were, "As my mother, she shouldn't be wanting to know Nathan's girlfriend."  Excuse me, bitch?  If I remember correctly, she said she has no mother. Her mother is dead to her. She hates her mother. So, why then is she flying off the handle over who that woman named Barb chooses to acknowledge? Clearly, Jenelle has not severed anything in her mind about Barb. Jenelle may not have as much PHYSICAL interaction with her mother, but she is never far from her mind. 

Quote

For what it's worth (probably not much), Jenelle gave birth to Jace four months before she turned 18.  So when Barb kicked her out, Jenelle was legally an adult. 

And yes, no longer enabling a user by kicking them out might cause the person to have to re-evaluate the way they are living their life.

Exactly. Anyone who knows about addiction (I do, and plenty others here as well) knows that the enabling has to stop. You must hold the person accountable for their actions and behavior. It wasn't as if Jenelle wasn't warned and it wasn't as if Barb asked much of her. Jenelle was also, as Fosca pointed out, a legal adult. What was Barb supposed to do? Continue to enable her behavior? Put her up in an apartment? Put her in a homeless shelter? Let the adult figure that dilemma out. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by GreatKazu

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Ya'll....I'm more of a "free-range" style parent myself (although my kids are way too young now to go outside even in our yard alone), but I don't see the problem as Jace & Maryssa were playing out front by themselves. It was that they were playing out front by themselves for seemingly all day before Barb got there because they'd likely been kicked out of inside of the house so Jenelle could be "left alone" and their "parents" were inside the house, locked in their room/bathroom sleeping....not checking on them every once in a while, not listening to make sure the sounds were those of happy playing & the kids were still within earshot, not folding laundry while watching the kids play from the window.  

I'm not bothered that Jenelle lets her older kids play outside by themselves. I'm bothered because I doubt Jenelle & David gave any thought to periodically checking on them, sent them out there to get them away, and then locked themselves inside. And because it's David and Jenelle....and we know they've locked Jace and Kaiser outside for hours at a time....

[AirQuotes]

I've mentioned my bi-polar sister before and there are so many similarities between her and Jen-yell.  I feel for Barb and I'm not going to blame Barb for how Jen-yell turned out.

The main similarity (other than bi-polar disorder) is an abandoned child.  When my sister was 19 she got pregnant and hid the pregnancy until about 2 weeks before the baby was born.  Total lack of reality bordering on delusional.  Baby was born and my sister ran around partying and neglecting the baby while my parents did all the parenting.  I was younger and even I had to participate in caring for the baby.  My parents were smarter than Barb though and they legally adopted the baby when she was 2 or 3.

Like Jen-yell, my sister totally rewrote history and she tells a sick and twisted delusional tale of how our parents (both have passed away now) "stole" her baby from her.  My sister and I were raised by the same parents in the same house, and we are nothing alike.  My sister is crazier than a sack of rats and she even brags about being bipolar.  She doesn't want to be mentally healthy; she wallows in her diagnosis and uses it as an excuse to victimize people while she pretends to be the victim.  It is a bizarre mindset.  I've distanced myself and haven't spoken to her since our mom died last summer.

Jen-yell's bullshit makes me grind my teeth because it just hits too close to home.   Long story short, I'm related to a "Jenelle" and they are impossible to have a healthy relationship with.  You cannot reason with unreasonable people and Barb needs to stop trying.   Everytime Barb tells Jen-yell that her behavior has hurt her feeling I want to shake some sense into Barb!  You never ever, ever let Jen-yell types know their behavior has affected you negatively because they thrive on that.  They love to hear that.  They don't think and feel like normal people do.  Their perceptions are skewed in a direction we will never understand.  Letting them know they hurt you only leads to more of the same bullshit from them.

Edited October 27, 2017 by AirQuotes

[Christina87]

39 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

Ya'll....I'm more of a "free-range" style parent myself (although my kids are way too young now to go outside even in our yard alone), but I don't see the problem as Jace & Maryssa were playing out front by themselves. It was that they were playing out front by themselves for seemingly all day before Barb got there because they'd likely been kicked out of inside of the house so Jenelle could be "left alone" and their "parents" were inside the house, locked in their room/bathroom sleeping....not checking on them every once in a while, not listening to make sure the sounds were those of happy playing & the kids were still within earshot, not folding laundry while watching the kids play from the window.  

I'm not bothered that Jenelle lets her older kids play outside by themselves. I'm bothered because I doubt Jenelle & David gave any thought to periodically checking on them, sent them out there to get them away, and then locked themselves inside. And because it's David and Jenelle....and we know they've locked Jace and Kaiser outside for hours at a time....

This is how I feel! My parents let us play outside by ourselves, but:

1. We were given clear boundaries and could not go anywhere near the street, or there was big trouble 

2. They were ACTIVE in the house, cooking and doing laundry, where they could see and at least hear us

3. They often checked on us

4. They were not doing activities where one could easily pass out or become unresponsive

5. They never forced us out just to get rid of us

i think that if jenelle and David were doing those things, it would be ok. However, jenelle just wanted them out so she could lock herself in her room and inject like a single woman! It's the equivalent of locking Kaiser in his room with a bottle. I've never seen somebody in all my life with fewer maternal instincts. 

Also, maybe I'm biased, but there is absolutely no way I could watch this special and feel anything but hatred for jenelle and sympathy for Barb. 

[AmandaUnbidden]

11 hours ago, Booted said:

I am pretty sure Jenelle is trying to have very little interaction with Barb and there for will not be blaming Barb for what is going on in her life since Barb won't be in it. 

What Jenelle seems to blame Barb for is refusal to let Jenelle have her son. I remember and it was shown in this show how Barb used Jace and his custody to try to control Jenelle by continued promises of her being on the right track and saying she never said Jenelle couldn't have him until Jenelle felt she had done what she should long enough to be able to have him - Barb then changed her tune. 

Jenelle is 25 yrs old now - but she was not for most of this show. She was Barbs teenaged daughter - I wonder if she will throw Jace out if he's a troubled teen too? Or are we suppose to understand that Barb loves him more than she did Jenelle and so won't treat him the same if he's anything like Jenelle? Also why is it acceptable to throw your daughter out if you are worried about her ? You think she is going to suddenly start to make good decisions on her own? No she  will keep making bad choices until she at least matures a bit. Barb was the adult parent with control for most the show we saw and so yes I only blame her for most of the ridiculous mess their lives were which by the way have improved majorly and for a lot of it IT IS Jenelle who has shown a lot of growth. 

Why does Barb get a pass like she does? She chose to get custody of Jace and obviously wants to keep him but she does not put his feelings first - just like when he was crying mommy and clearly wanted her but Barb wouldn't let him as she had just kicked her to curb. All I hear is how Jenelle hurts Barb feelings- what about all the times Barb hurts hers ? 

Also saying that mental conditions are genetic is not placing blame. It is just a fact 

I think it seems like Barb gets a pass because Jenelle's behavior makes Barb look like Mother Theresa. 

Obviously, Barb isn't perfect and has her own set of issues but when compared to Jenelle, well, there is no comparison. It's all already been said.

Barb shows compassion and love for other people, something I've yet to see from Jenelle. Barb has shown some improvement with the yelling and fighting. I mean she did walk away from Jenelle at the bday party instead of going at it with her. She works a full time job even though she gets money from the show. And I think the biggest reason she deserves to keep custody of Jace permanently is when they both discussed the issue, Jenelle only talked about how not having Jace affected her and how she felt and how Barb was being mean to her. Barb said she loved Jenelle and Jace and didn't want to hurt Jenelle but had to think about what is best for Jace. That right there, even if I hadn't seen the show would make me side with Barb in regards to Jace. Every time, hands down. 

7 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Up to two 8-balls a day. 

Oh my god! lmao This gave me a much needed laugh. ???

[AmandaUnbidden]

@citychic I agree with your whole post! Barb is just a flawed human being, as well, at the end of the day but I do believe she has worked really hard to help her children and has done her best. Whether her best was good enough is irrelevant because, she really probably couldn't have done anything more given her own situation and problems. You can't give more than your best. And your best and my best can be two very different things. 

7 hours ago, citychic said:

It really hurts my heart to hear Jenelle treat Barb the way that she does, I haven't even watched this one yet.

This is personal to me because in another world I could be Barb.

My oldest son has special needs. It has been exhausting caring for him since he was born 24 years ago, and I've been a single mom since he was five. The last seven years I've had to spend 24/7 caring for his every need from feeding to bathing without help.

I see everyone bashing Barb on here for the way Jenelle turned out but remember Barb is just a person too. She's not a regular doctor, a mental doctor, a therapist, a dentist, or a finance manager, she's a mom. But when her kids needed extra help she had to become all of these things for all of these kids that she felt responsible for because she created them and her marriage dissolved and their dad took off.

She did the best that she could, we all do. And if my daughter was in that situation I would more than likely take on an additional grandchild too instead of letting the child go up for adoption...Talk about a heartwrenching decision for a grandma. No Barb sure isn't perfect, most of us aren't. I truly do have bi-polar disorder, been on a disability myself since 1998. It's hard when you're a little messed up yourself but you do what you have to do to make it work because you feel a responsibility to your kids.

I know it's hard and exhausting for me and I can't even work outside the home full time because of my full time job inside the home so I know Barb must be so tired. Remember she also has to handle banking and things for her son who's in a home plus she also has the other grandkids. 

I had to give up my entire life because of my son. I was never able to attend college or hold a full time job because when he was in trouble at school or needed help it was always my phone they called and he was my priority. My life has never been my own to enjoy. I've been accused of a lot of horrible things over the years in my care of my son  and been told I was a horrible mother many, many times because my son is not normal and I must have done something wrong. It hurts so hard to hear people say it's your fault as the mother that your kids turned out bad.  Don't judge until you've been in the situation, you have no idea what people are going through.

 

6 hours ago, SmashleyMcSlayin said:

I’m a therapist and also believe she is borderline (obviously I’m not diagnosing someone I’ve never met, just my opinion). People with BPD are one of my favorite populations to work with because they can make huge progress when they really try. I wish Jenelle was motivated to make some changes. I think she could do really well in life if she would get some real help and take responsibility for herself.

I agree. I'm not a therapist but am studying to be one (not that that makes me anywhere near an expert or highly knowledgeable) but from what I have learned about BPD, it seems like the whole pattern with men and the interactions she has with them and her mother just screams BPD.

I really think she would have to be single and stay single to get any work done on her life though, and that just doesn't seem like that will ever be a possibility for Jenelle.

She would also have to be willing to do the work like you said, which I don't think she would ever be willing to do that while she is involved with this show.

The show would have to end for her to ever seek the help she needs to get better. Right now, she is surrounded by enablers and people telling her she is right and perfectly rational. With that kind of support, she'll never become self aware enough to work on herself. It's sad. 

[TimeToCancelTM]

7 hours ago, BXD said:

There is a very clear pattern here with Jenelle. When she has a guy in her life, she is unable to get along with her mother at all. When she is single, she manages to at least  have moments where she truly does seem like she appreciates and cares about her mom. It's really heartbreaking to see how easily manipulated she is by the guys she chooses to have in her life, especially David. He really is the worst of the bunch. #TeamKieffer 

You know its bad when everyone is now rooting for kieffahh (including me)...lol i knew david was a piece of shit when barb said to him "youre THE WORST boyyyyfreeend shes evah had" lol 

I picture kieffer somewhere on a beach in some dirty little hippie shack, living it up with his "homies", making pipes and thanking the Lord above for the bullet he dodged with this bitch....

[TimeToCancelTM]

7 hours ago, SmashleyMcSlayin said:

I’m a therapist and also believe she is borderline (obviously I’m not diagnosing someone I’ve never met, just my opinion). People with BPD are one of my favorite populations to work with because they can make huge progress when they really try. I wish Jenelle was motivated to make some changes. I think she could do really well in life if she would get some real help and take responsibility for herself.

Id love to agree, but i think its too late for jenelle... shes passed the point of no return. Even if we take david out of the picture, theres a million other davids in line out there....and shes JUST the right idiot to pick em'. I think jenelle is purely driven by the "fame" that the show has brought her, including all the negativity not even the money....jmo

[lovesnark]

2 hours ago, JuliesMommy said:

You know its bad when everyone is now rooting for kieffahh (including me)...lol i knew david was a piece of shit when barb said to him "youre THE WORST boyyyyfreeend shes evah had" lol 

I picture kieffer somewhere on a beach in some dirty little hippie shack, living it up with his "homies", making pipes and thanking the Lord above for the bullet he dodged with this bitch....

Kieffer probably thanks his lucky stars every day that he didn't wind up with a kid with her. As I remember, he wasn't a violent, screaming asshole. Jenelle was the violent, screaming asshole when they were together. I remember him peeling out in his car to get away from her when she was shrieking and chasing him.

[HeySandyStrange]

25 minutes ago, lovesnark said:

Kieffer probably thanks his lucky stars every day that he didn't wind up with a kid with her. As I remember, he wasn't a violent, screaming asshole. Jenelle was the violent, screaming asshole when they were together. I remember him peeling out in his car to get away from her when she was shrieking and chasing him.

Personally I firmly believe if Jenelle wasn't with a David, she would be the David in the relationship. Maybe a tad less violent and much more emotionally abusive, though. I shutter to think what she would do to a Corey type. She'd destroy a good guy. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by HeySandyStrange

[SmashleyMcSlayin]

3 hours ago, JuliesMommy said:

Id love to agree, but i think its too late for jenelle... shes passed the point of no return. Even if we take david out of the picture, theres a million other davids in line out there....and shes JUST the right idiot to pick em'. I think jenelle is purely driven by the "fame" that the show has brought her, including all the negativity not even the money....jmo

I definitely think that, as things stand now, you’re correct. My point is moreso that I think she’s an intelligent girl in a lot of ways, so if she was more self aware, she could make some major changes. But she’s not, so she won’t.

[citychic]

15 hours ago, AmandaUnbidden said:

@citychic I agree with your whole post! Barb is just a flawed human being, as well, at the end of the day but I do believe she has worked really hard to help her children and has done her best. Whether her best was good enough is irrelevant because, she really probably couldn't have done anything more given her own situation and problems. You can't give more than your best. And your best and my best can be two very different things. 

 

I agree. I'm not a therapist but am studying to be one (not that that makes me anywhere near an expert or highly knowledgeable) but from what I have learned about BPD, it seems like the whole pattern with men and the interactions she has with them and her mother just screams BPD.

I really think she would have to be single and stay single to get any work done on her life though, and that just doesn't seem like that will ever be a possibility for Jenelle.

She would also have to be willing to do the work like you said, which I don't think she would ever be willing to do that while she is involved with this show.

The show would have to end for her to ever seek the help she needs to get better. Right now, she is surrounded by enablers and people telling her she is right and perfectly rational. With that kind of support, she'll never become self aware enough to work on herself. It's sad. 

Thanks! Barb does a fine job with what she has to deal with. She's going to be just fine.

You are spot on about Jenelle's interactions with men being a symptom of bipolar, I never made that connection until you said it but I sure did live it in my late teens/early twenties. It's a daddy issue mixed with a submissive and David being a large person physically. He tells her what to do, what to say and how to think and in Jenelle's mind that's security and being taken care of which is why we see that pleased smirk on her face all the time. He fights her battles both mentally and physically.

Since I have bipolar I love to read about mental illness and how they shape the people around us. I came across this article and I thought it explained David and Jenelle really well. What I found most fascinating is how clearly it's explained why they are drawn to each other.

 

DSM-5 lists ten personality disorders, and allocates each to one of three groups or ‘clusters’: A, B, or C  

Cluster A (Odd, bizarre, eccentric)

Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD

Cluster B (Dramatic, erratic)

Antisocial PD, Borderline PD, Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD

Cluster C (Anxious, fearful)

Avoidant PD, Dependent PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD

 

David -

7. Narcissistic personality disorder

In narcissistic PD, the person has an extreme feeling of self-importance, a sense of entitlement, and a need to be admired. He is envious of others and expects them to be the same of him. He lacks empathy and readily lies and exploits others to achieve his aims. To others, he may seem self-absorbed, controlling, intolerant, selfish, or insensitive. If he feels obstructed or ridiculed, he can fly into a fit of destructive anger and revenge. Such a reaction is sometimes called ‘narcissistic rage’, and can have disastrous consequences for all those involved. 

Jenelle -

9. Dependent personality disorder

Dependent PD is characterized by a lack of self-confidence and an excessive need to be looked after. The person needs a lot of help in making everyday decisions and surrenders important life decisions to the care of others. He greatly fears abandonment and may go through considerable lengths to secure and maintain relationships. A person with dependent PD sees himself as inadequate and helpless, and so surrenders personal responsibility and submits himself to one or more protective others. He imagines that he is at one with these protective other(s), whom he idealizes as competent and powerful, and towards whom he behaves in a manner that is ingratiating and self-effacing. People with dependent PD often end up with people with a cluster B personality disorder, who feed on the unconditional high regard in which they are held. Overall, people with dependent PD maintain a naïve and child-like perspective, and have limited insight into themselves and others. This entrenches their dependency, and leaves them vulnerable to abuse and exploitation. 

David is cluster B and Jenelle is dependent. I'm not diagnosing them, but if the shoe fits lace that bitch up and wear it.

Here is a link to the whole article

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

Edited October 28, 2017 by citychic
Added a link

[DangerousMinds]

23 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Janelle idealized her father. He played for Steely Dan, y’all. She believes Barb ruined his dream just like Barb ruined hers. 

And where is he now???

Yes, Barb has shortcomings. Don't we all?

[GreatKazu]

To @citychic and the others who have experience and knowledge (thank you for posting the link above, btw), it reads above how Jenelle's personality type requires constant attention and needs guidance to making everyday decisions. Help me to understand something. Why is it Jenelle avoided her mother's guidance for so long growing up and yet, demands her mother's attention when she feels threatened such as when Jenelle threw a fit over Barb helping out Jenelle's sibling out of town and most recently when Jenelle blew up at the reunion because Barb gave a hug to Nathan's girlfriend? Those are just two examples, but there are a lot more. 

[hoosiermom]

When my husband died of cancer at age 42 twenty years ago, my daughters were 7 and 8. When we discussed the subject of dating, they asked me not to because they saw the behavior of some of the men their friends divorced mothers brought home. I still have never dated so I guess I’m a born again virgin.lol My daughters were always and still are my main concern. Janelle disgusts me with the men she has exposed her children to. Janelles main concern will always be Janelle.

[TimeToCancelTM]

18 hours ago, lovesnark said:

Kieffer probably thanks his lucky stars every day that he didn't wind up with a kid with her. As I remember, he wasn't a violent, screaming asshole. Jenelle was the violent, screaming asshole when they were together. I remember him peeling out in his car to get away from her when she was shrieking and chasing him.

That episode was epic! He had his friend pick him up because she was hitting him and being her usual psycho self...when the friend picked him up, she ran out there, tried to hang on the door, (all while he was laughing at her dumbass) and he had to tell his friend "just drive dude.." lol...ahhh kieffah memories lol

[ReadMeLattice]

On 10/26/2017 at 8:12 AM, Pepper Mostly said:

Her default is always "I just want to be with my son!" as she sobs into his hair. That child is nothing but a prop to her, and he always has been.

This. I've learned as I've gotten older that people who say things like "my wife" or "my son" instead of calling people by their names usually don't actually care about the person. They care about themselves & their own egos. Jenelle doesn't ever say, "I just want Jace here," she says she wants HERRRRR son there. It's always about possession.

[ReadMeLattice]

I don't think Jenelle is mentally ill, though I used to when I was giving her more of the benefit of the doubt. Usually mental illness indicates some sort of past trauma or abuse. I think she is evil. Sorry to be dramatic. To be blunt: some people are just evil and I think she's one of them. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Lm2162

[AmandaUnbidden]

@citychic I was referring to borderline personality disorder but you got the dependent personality right because it is a symptom of that. 

2 hours ago, JuliesMommy said:

That episode was epic! He had his friend pick him up because she was hitting him and being her usual psycho self...when the friend picked him up, she ran out there, tried to hang on the door, (all while he was laughing at her dumbass) and he had to tell his friend "just drive dude.." lol...ahhh kieffah memories lol

That scene right there is textbook borderline personality disorder. 

11 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I don't think Jenelle is mentally ill, though I used to when I was giving her more of the benefit of the doubt. Usually mental illness indicates some sort of past trauma or abuse. I think she is evil. Sorry to be dramatic. To be blunt: some people are just evil and I think she's one of them. 

Actually, I read a book that documented several parents' struggles with raising a child with borderline personality disorder.

Many of the families could not understand why their child turned out this way because there was no evidence of major trauma in their lives. The book went on to say that they think there is a genetic component to BPD, but most of the time, it is caused by trauma in childhood. Jenelle witnessing domestic violence in her home is trauma.

So my takeaway was that it's a combination of a certain predisposition to having it combined with the trauma. It also said if one parent has it, it is more likely for the child to inherit it even if there is no trauma.

Also, while borderline personality disorder is most common in females, men can have it too. So maybe Jenelle's dad has it. Could explain the domestic violence. When a professor I had introduced the topic to us she said, "Have you ever seen the movie Fatal Attraction? Meryl Streep's character definitely had borderline personality disorder."

People with untreated BPD can be dangerous and violent. It depends on their personality. Some will take out their feelings in violence on others, and some will just hurt themselves i.e. self harm, or attempted suicide. They are also known to threaten someone with committing suicide or hurting themselves if that person tries to leave them. 

Oh, and BPD is also often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder, which is interesting since Jenelle was diagnosed with bipolar at one point. 

[GreatKazu]

19 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I don't think Jenelle is mentally ill, though I used to when I was giving her more of the benefit of the doubt. Usually mental illness indicates some sort of past trauma or abuse. I think she is evil. Sorry to be dramatic. To be blunt: some people are just evil and I think she's one of them. 

It could be three factors - mental disorders through genetics, trauma from growing up with an abusive father, AND being an asshole with no heart. I think she has mental issues that have been passed on genetically, which of course, is no one's fault. She most certainly endured trauma due to the fact she grew up with an abusive father. Many children come out of those situations scarred for life. This is why we have so much sympathy for the kids on this show because we know they are not responsible for what the adults are doing in their presence and we can see it in their eyes the pain and the trauma that is already causing damage. We see Jace and Maryssa and how they respond to the abuse that is going on around them. We talk at length about what Jace will be like when he is older. 

I hate that word "fault" being used about Barb because the word implies intent. Barb, or any loving parent, doesn't have fault or blame when it comes to mental disorders that their children suffer from. Barb is certainly not at fault for the dv situation she and her children were exposed to. People don't choose to be mentally ill.  People can be aware they need help. When they have resources at their disposal, like Jenelle, I will hold THEM responsible for not doing anything about it.  

[StatisticalOutlier]

10 hours ago, citychic said:

Thanks! Barb does a fine job with what she has to deal with. She's going to be just fine.

I wish we could say the same for Jace, being raised in this environment.

I don't really care about Barb or Jenelle, but I do care that both of them continue to let Jace be in the middle of all their "drama," as Barb calls it.  He's not seeing drama, he's experiencing abuse by his mother and his grandmother, who can't control themselves enough to see to it that he doesn't witness it.  Y'all wanna fight?  Have at it, but in what universe is it even remotely okay to do it in front of Jace?

A theoretical:  If CPS showed up at Barb's house and said, "If you even raise your voice to Jenelle in front of Jace one more time, we're taking him away from you," would she be able to comply?  I actually think she could.  Maybe only by making sure she and Jenelle don't even see each other and never talk on the phone when Jace is around, but I think she'd figure something out because she doesn't want to lose Jace.  So I'm distressed that she hasn't done this already, because it means that protecting Jace alone isn't enough incentive for her to stop fighting with Jenelle.

Maybe that's why I'm not content that she tries.  I think she could succeed if the stakes involved her, and not just Jace, and considering the mess that kid's going to be, that's just not good enough.

[hoosiermom]

One of my favorite books about BPD “I hate you,don’t leave me” says it all in the title. Another good one is “Walking on eggshells”. We often have our BPD patients read them.

[GreatKazu]

15 minutes ago, hoosiermom said:

One of my favorite books about BPD “I hate you,don’t leave me” says it all in the title. Another good one is “Walking on eggshells”. We often have our BPD patients read them.

I will check those out. Thanks for sharing. 

[AmandaUnbidden]

I think at the end of the day, Jenelle is still responsible for her actions. Is she mentally ill? I believe she is. But that does not excuse her abusing or hurting someone else. It's not like she has schizophrenia, which I could probably see an argument there for the person not being fully responsible for something they did while untreated. 

She has been to rehab. She knows she has issues but she doesn't seem to be self aware enough or maybe sympathetic enough to see or care how her actions are affecting anyone else.

I suffered with BPD when I was younger, and through years of counseling and work on myself, I feel I've overcome the worst of it. But I was only able to get to that place through self awareness and an ability to care about others and feel sympathy for them.                        

 I got to the point that I was so miserable that I would do anything to feel better, including exploring the idea that maybe I was the problem, not everyone else. 

I think it's really hard to come to that point for people with BPD because we often find ourselves in relationships with real dirtbags and have had tough childhoods, so it's easy to just feel sorry for ourselves and see ourselves as the victim of everyone else.

I often wallowed in self-pity and had a why me attitude. It took me forever to get it through my head that no one else could be responsible for my happiness and how wrong it was to place that kind of burden on someone else. 

And one more thing, I think the show is keeping Jenelle in this messed up place in her head. They feed her ego, they tell her she's right to feel the way she does, that she's a good mother, etc. As long as she continues this show, there is no way she will ever get better. 

Edited to add:  That everyone with BPD or any other mental illness are not exactly the same. We all have our own personalities. I would like to think that I am a generally kind person that cares about others. I think those qualities helped me to overcome the BPD.

On the flip side you can have an asshole personality (Jenelle) and suffer the same illness, but it will look different and people will be less inclined to be sympathetic because, well, you're an asshole. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by AmandaUnbidden

[SmashleyMcSlayin]

On 10/28/2017 at 1:47 PM, GreatKazu said:

To @citychic and the others who have experience and knowledge (thank you for posting the link above, btw), it reads above how Jenelle's personality type requires constant attention and needs guidance to making everyday decisions. Help me to understand something. Why is it Jenelle avoided her mother's guidance for so long growing up and yet, demands her mother's attention when she feels threatened such as when Jenelle threw a fit over Barb helping out Jenelle's sibling out of town and most recently when Jenelle blew up at the reunion because Barb gave a hug to Nathan's girlfriend? Those are just two examples, but there are a lot more. 

I would disagree with the poster above who describes Jenelle as dependent PD. Certainly she has features of that diagnosis, but her behavior is better explained by a diagnosis of borderline, which is characterized by idealization and devaluation of others (viewing them as either all good or all bad with little in between). Notice how there are times when she gets along fine with Barb and her boyfriends but can so quickly flip the switch to fighting with them and hating them.

Other BPD symptoms:

Impulsive/risky behavior, angry outbursts, identity confusion, mood swings. Sound familiar?

Most people with personality disorders exhibit features of more than one, so again, Jenelle does have dependent PD features but it’s really not the best explanation for her behavior.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I have only ever taken two undergrad psych classes, but have a family member with Narcissistic personality disorder (like diagnosed when the family member was institutionalized, not just I "think" she has it)....and Jenelle reminds me of that family member SO much. I also have a borderline in-law, and I definitely see that in Jenelle, too....and I think I've read the two are often co-morbid together. So I guess my input is with my completely inadequate ability to diagnosis, I think she's NPD and BPD. 

[SmashleyMcSlayin]

50 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I have only ever taken two undergrad psych classes, but have a family member with Narcissistic personality disorder (like diagnosed when the family member was institutionalized, not just I "think" she has it)....and Jenelle reminds me of that family member SO much. I also have a borderline in-law, and I definitely see that in Jenelle, too....and I think I've read the two are often co-morbid together. So I guess my input is with my completely inadequate ability to diagnosis, I think she's NPD and BPD. 

That’s true, they often occur together, or as I said above, the person may qualify for a diagnosis of one PD and also demonstrate features of others. As another poster said, PDs are grouped into clusters A, B, and C based on similarities between the diagnoses. NPD and BPD are both cluster B and thus can have a lot of similarity and overlap.

Edited October 30, 2017 by SmashleyMcSlayin
Spelling error

[hoosiermom]

On 10/28/2017 at 8:07 PM, AmandaUnbidden said:

I think at the end of the day, Jenelle is still responsible for her actions. Is she mentally ill? I believe she is. But that does not excuse her abusing or hurting someone else. It's not like she has schizophrenia, which I could probably see an argument there for the person not being fully responsible for something they did while untreated. 

She has been to rehab. She knows she has issues but she doesn't seem to be self aware enough or maybe sympathetic enough to see or care how her actions are affecting anyone else.

I suffered with BPD when I was younger, and through years of counseling and work on myself, I feel I've overcome the worst of it. But I was only able to get to that place through self awareness and an ability to care about others and feel sympathy for them.                        

 I got to the point that I was so miserable that I would do anything to feel better, including exploring the idea that maybe I was the problem, not everyone else. 

I think it's really hard to come to that point for people with BPD because we often find ourselves in relationships with real dirtbags and have had tough childhoods, so it's easy to just feel sorry for ourselves and see ourselves as the victim of everyone else.

I often wallowed in self-pity and had a why me attitude. It took me forever to get it through my head that no one else could be responsible for my happiness and how wrong it was to place that kind of burden on someone else. 

And one more thing, I think the show is keeping Jenelle in this messed up place in her head. They feed her ego, they tell her she's right to feel the way she does, that she's a good mother, etc. As long as she continues this show, there is no way she will ever get better. 

Edited to add:  That everyone with BPD or any other mental illness are not exactly the same. We all have our own personalities. I would like to think that I am a generally kind person that cares about others. I think those qualities helped me to overcome the BPD.

On the flip side you can have an asshole personality (Jenelle) and suffer the same illness, but it will look different and people will be less inclined to be sympathetic because, well, you're an asshole. 

Thank you for sharing your experience. You sound like a wonderful person and I bet you have a lot of people who are proud of you. Heck, I don’t even know you but I am proud of you because I know how much work you had to have done to turn your life around! Kudos to you!

[AmandaUnbidden]

@hoosiermom Thanks a bunch! I think my family, specifically my mother, never thought I was going to get it together but luckily I did. 

[ReadMeLattice]

On 10/28/2017 at 6:57 PM, AmandaUnbidden said:

@citychic

Responding to the "it's more common  in women" thing-- Interestingly enough, it's actually just as common in men according to the most recent research, just less commonly diagnosed because it looks different in men (like autism and ADHD in women). Men with BPD are likelier to be seriously violent rather than dependent on a series of partners. 

Something like 85% of women with BPD were sexually or seriously physically and psychologically abused as children. That's why I'm dubious that Jenelle has it, unless of course she's part of the other 15% (or maybe I just don't have any sympathy left for her and I'm overlooking too much of her past because of my hate-bias). I do know she has had trauma in her life, of course. I just don't see any empathy or vulnerability; even if severely mentally ill to the point of extreme debilitation, there would be moments of vulnerability and kindness. The statistical majority of people with BPD actually do get "cured" or "better," contrary to popular belief/media stereotypes. I just don't see that possibility in Jenelle. Of course, as you say, that could just be because she's an asshole and the mental issues are layered on top of that. 

I could also just hate her so much that I'm not seeing things clearly anymore, lol. I got like that with Amber too.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Lm2162

[SmashleyMcSlayin]

15 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Responding to the "it's more common  in women" thing-- Interestingly enough, it's actually just as common in men according to the most recent research, just less commonly diagnosed because it looks different in men (like autism and ADHD in women). Men with BPD are likelier to be seriously violent rather than dependent on a series of partners. 

Something like 85% of women with BPD were sexually or seriously physically and psychologically abused as children. That's why I'm dubious that Jenelle has it, unless of course she's part of the other 15% (or maybe I just don't have any sympathy left for her and I'm overlooking too much of her past because of my hate-bias). I do know she has had trauma in her life, of course. I just don't see any empathy or vulnerability; even if severely mentally ill to the point of extreme debilitation, there would be moments of vulnerability and kindness. The statistical majority of people with BPD actually do get "cured" or "better," contrary to popular belief/media stereotypes. I just don't see that possibility in Jenelle. Of course, as you say, that could just be because she's an asshole and the mental issues are layered on top of that. 

I could also just hate her so much that I'm not seeing things clearly anymore, lol. I got like that with Amber too.

Abuse is certainly one pathway by which people can come by BPD, but not the only way. What we refer to as an “invalidating environment” is the main pathway, and what this means is that the individual’s feelings and beliefs are made to feel untrue or questionable as a result of their environment and the people in it. Abuse can fall under that umbrella of an invalidating environment (e.g., sexual abuse by a family member - “I’m supposed to feel safe with this person but he hurt me”). Same with abandonment, and remember that Jenelle’s father left when she was young (“he’s supposed to love me but he left”). The invalidating environment can take other forms, such as a parent reacting badly when the child expresses emotions (e.g., “man up,” “stop crying or I’ll give you something to cry about”). I could believe that Barb might have created an invalidating environment for Jenelle in some ways.

So you’re correct that most individuals with BPD have suffered abuse, but even if Jenelle experienced no physical or sexual abuse, I’m not dubious at all about her probably meeting criteria for the diagnosis. I have seen more than a few patients in my practice who have BPD and report no abuse background.

[GreatKazu]

16 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Responding to the "it's more common  in women" thing-- Interestingly enough, it's actually just as common in men according to the most recent research, just less commonly diagnosed because it looks different in men (like autism and ADHD in women). Men with BPD are likelier to be seriously violent rather than dependent on a series of partners. 

Something like 85% of women with BPD were sexually or seriously physically and psychologically abused as children. That's why I'm dubious that Jenelle has it, unless of course she's part of the other 15% (or maybe I just don't have any sympathy left for her and I'm overlooking too much of her past because of my hate-bias). I do know she has had trauma in her life, of course. I just don't see any empathy or vulnerability; even if severely mentally ill to the point of extreme debilitation, there would be moments of vulnerability and kindness. The statistical majority of people with BPD actually do get "cured" or "better," contrary to popular belief/media stereotypes. I just don't see that possibility in Jenelle. Of course, as you say, that could just be because she's an asshole and the mental issues are layered on top of that. 

I could also just hate her so much that I'm not seeing things clearly anymore, lol. I got like that with Amber too.

I "liked" your post because like you, I just can't muster sympathy for Jenelle. None. Whatever mental disorders she may suffer from doesn't change the fact she is aware of her problems, but does nothing about those issues. Sure there are reasons and explanations for her behavior and I hate that she and Barb endured DV and all the abuse that was dished out. But Jenelle is responsible for her damn self and only cares about her needs and wants while pissing on the welfare of her children. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by GreatKazu

[ReadMeLattice]

26 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

I "liked" your post because like you, I just can't muster sympathy for Jenelle. None. Whatever mental disorders she may suffer from doesn't change the fact she is aware of her problems, but does nothing about those issues. Sure there are reasons and explanations for her behavior and I hate that she and Barb endured DV and all the abuse that was dished out. But Jenelle is responsible for her damn self and only cares about her needs and wants while pissing on the welfare of her children. 

Yeah, I used to facilitate a trauma group-- most had PTSD but a few had BPD and all of them were molested and/or rape survivors. Several had children and all were kind and compassionate, but I guess that's self-selecting because they were all working on themselves, which she would never do. 

I guess it's just hard for me to see her having the same thing and that being the cause of her behavior. She is seriously one of the worst people I've ever seen. So again I think it might be my severe hatred for her clouding my judgment because I just don't like to think she's "suffering" from anything or a victim like the folks I worked with. 

I think my hatred for her might not even be healthy, lol. 

[AmandaUnbidden]

@Lm2162 I feel you about getting to the point with Jenelle where you have no sympathy left for her. Also, it makes sense that men are just as likely to have BPD but it's just under diagnosed. 

Interestingly enough, there was domestic violence in my home and my father sexually abused me so I guess I fit the typical criteria for BPD. I just know that it can occur even if there was no abuse. 

I'm 37 now, and have had lots of therapy and have worked through most of my issues so I'm comfortable sharing what has happened to me in the past as well as my mental health issues I had from it. I don't share for sympathy or anything like that. I just refuse to feel ashamed of what happened to me, and for me, staying silent is equivalent to shame. 

Also, I think due to my own experiences, I tend to feel a lot of sympathy for Jenelle in certain situations, especially when she runs after her men and screams for them to love her. And when she pushes everyone away like Barb and her family but then still doesn't understand why they don't read her mind and realize what she really wants is their unconditional love.

I kind of understood completely when Jenelle disinvited her mother to the wedding and then cried when she wasn't there. She wanted her mother to somehow read her mind and see that she needed her and for her to come over there, tell her she loves her no matter what, hold her even if she physically pushes her away and then fight for Jenelle's love. 

Now, of course, this is crazy thinking, thus the BPD. But I feel her because I spent my teens and all the way into my twenties feeling the same way and reacting irrationally like her. I did not, however, ever assault anyone or neglect or abuse my child. Well, I think my child probably witnessed a lot more of my emotional break downs than she ever should have but I did my best to shield her from what I could. Also, I only had one long term boyfriend while she was growing up. He wasn't great. He was a user and a liar but he wasn't physically abusive and wasn't abusive to my child. And, I never had anymore kids. So in those ways, I can't relate to Jenelle. She's done so many things that I never would've done in a million years like get in her mom's face and threaten to hit her, neglect/ignore her children, steal money from her mom, etc, etc. 

Anyway, sorry for writing a novel there. Got a little carried away but Jenelle's issues both make me feel for her and abhor her at the same time. 

[FairyDusted]

I totally get where you are coming from @AmandaUnbidden. I unfortunately get where you are coming from with the unforgivable childhood abuse. I was that kid. I also still have a very arms length with my Mother yet my Father now lives in my home! And let me tell you that took decades of therapy and personal forgiveness and honest, hard conversations with him. 

That's where it ends though. I would never give my lil Fairy to my Mother under any circumstances.She still refuses to speak on and Dog forbid admit her grizzly part. Living states away since I was a teen helps;) I also think there's an age limit on crimes against parents in a way. At some point it became my responsibility for my life. I had to do all the work for me.   

Sorry for the off topic..Feel free to move it.

[TeenMomAngerMgmt]

Finally caught up on TM and saw this special. Add me to the list of folks yearning for the simpler times on Kieffer’s grassy knoll. 

[kokapetl]

My God, so much screaming.