S13.E03: Patience

[MysteryGuest]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

. Again, TO ME that's a writing choice that doesn't give either one the chance to actually explain their logical just to set up a big fight that is largely a false equivalency.

Exactly.  I think we're all in agreement that both Sam and Dean have valid arguments where Jack is concerned.  It's just how the writers have them going about expressing those opinions that's bothersome to me.  They have a lot more common ground than is being acknowledged, and it's frustrating to watch.  I know we, as viewers, have the advantage of seeing both sides, and each brother doesn't necessarily have that in this fight, but I still think that after all of this time, and all of the misunderstandings, it would be easier for Sam and Dean to talk to each other.  Basically, their positions are fine, but the writing isn't nuanced enough to make either one of them look great at this point.  

It was the same last year when Sam opted to work with the BMOL, and then didn't bother to actually discuss it with Dean.  It made Sam look bad, and there was no reason to do that.  The end result would have been the same if the writers had taken the time to have Sam actually explain his position rather than sneaking around.  I'm just tired of the contrived drama between the brothers.  Let the drama come from the monsters.

[Myrelle]

22 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Actually, he did.  He told Dean that Jack said Dean told him he would kill him, and Dean said 'It wasn't exactly like that.'  Sam replied 'Then how was it?' which is when Dean really let loose on how he feels.  Doesn't change anything, just thought I'd mention it.

 

And this was right after Sam told Dean that he(Dean) is the reason that Jack is messed up-that pesky Fallen Idols argument all over again from Sam, only this time he(or the writers, I can't actually tell which anymore) is trying to push it through the Jack storyline instead. Geez, will they ever give up on that nonsense? 

When Sam said that, *I* about blew a gasket, so I'm not surprised that Dean did also. And I'm glad that he did because those words should be a hot button issue for Dean at this point; and every bit as much as the term freak is for Sam. JMO, of course.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Myrelle

[SueB]

20 hours ago, Bessie said:

Has Dean worked on finding a way to kill Jack?  He wasn't shown to be doing that this week, but I didn't watch last week's episode. I'm wondering how committed Dean really is to his position if he isn't even trying to figure out how to kill Jack. 

I didn’t get a chance to comment on this yesterday but again you and I are on the same wavelength.  

Dean is not actively search lore to kill Jack.  He might be pondering options in his head but he’s not treating Jack as the active threat he first thought he was.  He seems to have gone to ‘eventually’ it will happen.  As an example is the Golem.  They started talking about means of neutralizing him pretty quickly.  Now Dean knows he can’t discuss it with Sam but he’s not looking either. 

Of course what he’s looking for is not how to kill a run-of-the -mill Nephilim but one from an archangel.  That’s a clearerly a bigger deal.  Still, it’s possible he’s not pushing because he needs to figure it how ‘at the right time’ versus preemptively. 

As for grace extraction- I’m pretty sure Jack’s instincts will stop that.  I’m not sure trying is even safe with Jack’s permission.  

[SueB]

On a different note: I disagree this is ‘manufactured drama’ or ‘inorganic’.  Sam and Dean are coming at the issue from well-established character traits.  The issue is obvious and part of the plot. 

Usually the sense of manufacturered or inorganic comes from the characters failing to take normal steps that they would have (in character). In this case, the issue is Dean not telling Sam about the standby mcstaberson moment Jack had and Dean’s ‘promise’.  Well, this seems in character under the circumstances.  Dean is no dummy.  All that info about self-harm would have made Sam’s case for saving Jack stronger. And Dean isn’t interested in that.  Plus Jack has done a lot of ‘fish out of water’ things so he didn’t necessarily feel compelled to tell Sam about this.  Finally, Dean is pissed at Sam. Dean feels helping Jack is a betrayal of Cas (and he may have thrown Mary in there in his mind).  Dean had already had enough of Sam being rational on the trip home.  He needed space to chew on stuff and he didn’t necessarily want to get Sam’s opinion on it. He probably feels he knows what Sam would think.  And no, he didn’t consider a Jack relaying what Dean said to Sam.  In Dean’s mind the caveat (if you go dark side) was a sufficient mitigator.  

So, the argument stemmed from Dean not telling Sam about his promise.  From Dean’s perspective, his promise was already publicly stated.  And he’s not in the mood to keep Sam 100% in the loop with everything he’s experiencing right now.  So... to me, argument was pretty natural fall-out of where each of these characters are at. 

[shang yiet]

How could Dean think Sam is betraying Cas? Cas is Sam's friend too. I don't think this is the case. I hope not cuz that would be a case of crossed wires for sure.

 

 And keeping secrets is not helping Sam handle the situation.

Edited October 30, 2017 by shang yiet

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

How could Dean think Sam is betraying Cas? Cas is Sam's friend too. I don't think this is the case. I hope not cuz that would be a case of crossed wires for sure.

 

 And keeping secrets is not helping Sam handle the situation.

We don't know the timeline for sure, but it seemed like the episode picked up the next day after the stabby scene, going by Sam saying Jack hadn't been out of his room and it looked like Dean was seeing Sam for the first time (that day at least). The conversation immediately went to Missouri and Sam turning down her plea for help on their behalf, and the first argument ensued. So there really wasn't opportunity for Dean to tell Sam about it, even if he was so inclined.

I don't see where or how Dean said or even implied Sam was betraying Cas. He stated (emphatically) how he felt about Jack's existence, and said more than once that Sam was free to do what he wanted, but [he] couldn't.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

And keeping secrets is not helping Sam handle the situation.

I don't know that I'd categorize it as Dean was keeping secrets--assuming you're talking about him not telling Sam he told Jack he'd be the one to kill him. That's not really a secret, Dean told Sam the same thing. To Dean, it was just a statement of fact and, quite frankly, he probably forgot about it until Sam brought it up later. I don't think it was something Dean was hold back from telling Sam as much as he didn't see it as a big deal.

[shang yiet]

I admit we don't know whether Dean would have told Sam about the stabbing and kill threat eventually. Maybe he would have.or maybe not. I was merely referring to another poster's theory that Dean was in no mood to share info. Because keeping secrets is bad, right?

Also, I was merely referring to the poster's theory that helping Jack might be seen as a betrayal by Dean. I really hope that's not true.

DittyDotDot  --- you mean Dean told Sam already that he would kill Jack before this ep? I can't recall. Still, that's not the same as threatening Jack to his face and spooking him.

 

Not that I care about Jack's tender feelings but you know, since he has the power to bring back Mary and I assume Dean mght want her back

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, shang yiet said:

DittyDotDot  --- you mean Dean told Sam already that he would kill Jack before this ep? I can't recall. Still, that's not the same as threatening Jack to his face and spooking him.

No it's not the same, but I think to Dean it wasn't new information. To Dean, Jack is no different than any of the other supernatural things he's told he would kill over the years. 

And, yes, at the end of Lost and Found, Dean says they should take Jack to the bunker until he finds a way to kill him. And then again in the next episode he's talking about how they should just kill him with Jack in the same room...so, yeah, I'm pretty sure Dean didn't think it was information Sam didn't already have.

It's just that Sam had been trying so hard to help the kid and he was sitting and stewing about how he was failing and then Dean comes in and asks him if the kid has gone darkside yet...and Sam is now pissed off and starts a fight. If you ask me, it was a classic homemaker/breadwinner setup.

[shang yiet]

Jack is different because they need a big favour from him. The other supernatural beings you can afford to anger, mock snd enrage.

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I admit we don't know whether Dean would have told Sam about the stabbing and kill threat eventually. Maybe he would have.or maybe not. I was merely referring to another poster's theory that Dean was in no mood to share info. Because keeping secrets is bad, right?

Also, I was merely referring to the poster's theory that helping Jack might be seen as a betrayal by Dean. I really hope that's not true.

DittyDotDot  --- you mean Dean told Sam already that he would kill Jack before this ep? I can't recall. Still, that's not the same as threatening Jack to his face and spooking him.

 

Not that I care about Jack's tender feelings but you know, since he has the power to bring back Mary and I assume Dean mght want her back

Dean didn't really threaten Jack, either. At least not in the stabby scene. When Jack repeated it to Sam, he made it sound like a threat though, and that's what Sam assumed to be true. Whether that was just poor writing, or Jack misunderstanding, or Jack intentionally relating it to Sam that way for.... reasons, remains to be seen.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean didn't really threaten Jack, either. At least not in the stabby scene. When Jack repeated it to Sam, he made it sound like a threat though, and that's what Sam assumed to be true. Whether that was just poor writing, or Jack misunderstanding, or Jack intentionally relating it to Sam that way for.... reasons, remains to be seen.

I think it was most likely Jack's interpretation. Jack is only a few days old still, so no matter how much his mother talked to him when he was in the womb, he won't understand subtext and tone the way that we would. So, for Jack, it seemed like a threat. And for Sam, when Jack told him, he's already heard Dean say that he'll kill the kid, so it's not out of the realm that he'd tell Jack that exact thing. 

Could Dean have worded it better to Jack? Absolutely. Do I blame Dean for telling Jack? Not at all. He's still grieving, and now there's this powerful Son of Satan who could easily kill them at any moment. Telling Jack outright is giving him a heads up, so that he's not keeping anything from Jack so it can't be used against him. He also saw Jack try to find a way to kill himself, so he associated his goals with Jack's goals and let him know that he'd do it himself if it came down to it.

Of course, Dean continuously telling Sam that Jack will go evil, heavily insinuating that Jack will have to die, doesn't help matters. Dean doesn't have to give Jack the benefit of the doubt and hope that he'll stay on the side of good. Sam's a bit naive in not looking for a Kill Switch for Jack, just in case it does turn sideways. However, Dean's grief is causing him to lash out a little too much, in that maybe talking negatively about Jack in front of him constantly isn't helping matters, and will only make it harder for Jack to truly believe that he can be good instead of evil. 

Though my question is why hasn't Dean started looking for ways to kill Jack? He says that he'll kill him, and sure, they've had other cases to deal with, but even a line about doing research or something would go to show how serious Dean is. I chalk this up to the poor writing, though. Sometimes, this show tends to drop the ball on important plots until they're needed. 

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

DittyDotDot  --- you mean Dean told Sam already that he would kill Jack before this ep? I can't recall. Still, that's not the same as threatening Jack to his face and spooking him.

I have to say that Jack didn't seem particularly spooked at all when Dean told him that IF he went bad, he would be the one that killed him.  Seemed to me it was an almost adult conversation between Dean and Jack in 13.2. There was no sense of childlike naivete at all from Jack. Like Jack literally said to Dean 'What the hell am I".  More of a teen to an adult than some 3 year old who can't comprehend anything. Similar to the tone Jack took with Sam when he was refusing to do try to move the pencil and said 'This is the opposite". Nothing childlike there. 

Jack already knows he can throw people across a room and he can't be killed by knife. So why would Jack be afraid of Dean killing him? IMO Jack and Dean seem to have an understanding of each other IMO on a level beyond 'Dean is scary bad man". And I think Jack is using the "But Dean hates me card" to make sure that Sam protects him from Dean. Whether that means that Sam gets Dean to join him to Mr. Miyagi Jack or he needs Sam to be AGAINST Dean and will protect him. I don't think Jack is afraid of Dean, I think Jack sees Dean as an enemy now.

I thought maybe Jack woke up Castiel because he feels bad that Dean's heart is so broken but I think it's more like Jack needs Castiel awake to protect him from Dean but not because he's afraid of Dean but because he knows Dean means what he said.  If Jack wants to stay alive then he's going to have to do something about Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

Jack is different because they need a big favour from him. The other supernatural beings you can afford to anger, mock snd enrage.

Yes, for Sam, Jack is different, but Dean doesn't see it that way.

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought maybe Jack woke up Castiel because he feels bad that Dean's heart is so broken but I think it's more like Jack needs Castiel awake to protect him from Dean but not because he's afraid of Dean but because he knows Dean means what he said.  If Jack wants to stay alive then he's going to have to do something about Dean.

I interpreted Jack waking up Castiel as him thinking that he didn't have anyone on his side and Castiel was the only one he could trust, so he had to bring him back. Up until that conversation that Jack overheard, he assumed that Sam was being truthful with him and that he was wanting to help him. But Dean's fight with Sam, telling him that Sam was only using Jack to get back their mother, probably put doubt in Jack's head about Sam's true intentions, especially when Sam didn't deny it. So, I don't think Jack woke up Castiel to protect him from Dean, or what Dean would do to him, but more along the lines of him needing Castiel because he's the only person he can fully trust to believe in him. Jack technically could kill Dean right now; he's still vastly more powerful than Dean and if he really was afraid of what Dean said, he could eliminate the problem. Of course, that would go against his need to be good and not just deflect to evil, as Dean assumes he will. 

Also, another thought I had was that maybe what Dean said about Jack killing Cas got into his head, and he felt guilt or regret or remorse about his role in it. Jack's powers stem from his emotions, so if his emotions about Cas were high enough, I can see him using his powers subconsciously to bring Cas back, as I don't think he realized what he was doing.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Also, another thought I had was that maybe what Dean said about Jack killing Cas got into his head, and he felt guilt or regret or remorse about his role in it. Jack's powers stem from his emotions, so if his emotions about Cas were high enough, I can see him using his powers subconsciously to bring Cas back, as I don't think he realized what he was doing.  

I saw it as a more instinctual response, too.

Previously, Jack declared Cas as his father but he didn`t express any doubt that Cas was dead nor the intention to bring him back somehow. He visited Cas` funeral and seemed to accept Cas` death. Now in this episode they established that like the young mutants in X-men he has no control over his powers yet but they manifest via strong emotions. Well, he definitely felt strong emotions overhearing the brothers in that scene.

Then Dean mentions Castiel and how he is dead and bam Jack thinks of the guy he claimed as a father and his powers activate. And it`s not like he beamed Cas back to him or something, he established a supernatural connection between them. Somehow I don`t even think Jack will know what he did or be able to recreate it at will, other than maybe at the end of another emotionally charged episode. 

But in this one, I don`t think concious thought played a role in what Jack did at the end.  

[MysteryGuest]

I think this is also the first time that Jack heard anyone say that he was directly responsible for Cas' death.  Sam told him Cas had died, but with no specifics.  He thinks of Cas as his father, and has now just learned that he's to blame for his death.  I think his calling out to Castiel was more of an instinctual thing than the result of any deliberate thought process about bringing him back.  Jack doesn't yet know what he's capable of doing, so I doubt he'd think along those lines.  But he is an uber powerful being, so who knows what just focusing all of his thoughts on Castiel could do.  Obviously, it's done something, but we have yet to learn exactly what that is.

[Aeryn13]

In all fairness to Jack, Cas going after Lucifer like that with no rhyme or reason served no purpose, it wasn`t done in service of Jack or to benefit Jack in any way I could see. Doesn`t change Dean`s problem of "he is here and my friend is not, if I could I would swap them" but to this day I`d say Cas had the oddest death on Supernatural. He might as well have slipped on a supernatural banana peel and broken his neck. 

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In all fairness to Jack, Cas going after Lucifer like that with no rhyme or reason served no purpose, it wasn`t done in service of Jack or to benefit Jack in any way I could see. Doesn`t change Dean`s problem of "he is here and my friend is not, if I could I would swap them" but to this day I`d say Cas had the oddest death on Supernatural. He might as well have slipped on a supernatural banana peel and broken his neck. 

well, killing Lucifer would have kept Jack out of his clutches.  But, he was probably equally trying to save the Winchesters. And, of course, he couldn't kill him anyway and he really ought to have known that.  But, even if Lucifer killed Castiel specifically because of Jack, it still wouldn't have been Jack's fault any more than Mary's original death was Sam's.  Babies (loose definition for Jack, I know) can't be responsible what happens to other people just because they were born.

[SueB]

6 hours ago, shang yiet said:

How could Dean think Sam is betraying Cas? Cas is Sam's friend too. I don't think this is the case. I hope not cuz that would be a case of crossed wires for sure.

 

 And keeping secrets is not helping Sam handle the situation.

Quote

Dean: And what about Cas?
Sam: What about Cas?

Dean: He manipulated him. He made him promises, said paradise on Earth, and Cas bought it and you know what it got him? It got him dead. Now you may be able to forget about that but I cant!

Dean's literally yelling "..you may be able to forget about that...." is an accusation IMO. And betrayal seems like the right word IMO.  Dean has made it clear that he thinks the kid is going to go dark side -- but at this point Dean is also saying "I can hardly look at the kid." Do I think that rationally Dean thinks Sam is actively betraying Cas?  No.  But forgetting about how Cas was killed can FEEL like betrayal.  It's not 'crossed wires', it's a sense that Cas didn't matter enough to Sam to make a stand.

Now I don't know if Sam KNOWS about the Paradise theory.  That was in offscreenville.  But even if he did, Sam is focused on trying to save someone who is alive.  Dean, who doesn't think Mary is alive, isn't distracted by that.  All he sees is the being that convinced Cas to protect him.  

So... it's NOT crossed wires, it's anger and a difference of perspective but both are hurting.  That's part of what makes this such a natural outcome.  In the real world people are hurt about different things.  Just take this thread.  People who are complaining are picking on all sorts of different issues.  There's not a universal agreement on issues.  Why would we expect the boys to be on the exact same page regarding this traumatic event?

48 minutes ago, Katy M said:

well, killing Lucifer would have kept Jack out of his clutches.  But, he was probably equally trying to save the Winchesters. And, of course, he couldn't kill him anyway and he really ought to have known that.  But, even if Lucifer killed Castiel specifically because of Jack, it still wouldn't have been Jack's fault any more than Mary's original death was Sam's.  Babies (loose definition for Jack, I know) can't be responsible what happens to other people just because they were born.

While that absolutely works for Kelly, I think Dean's issue is the baby taking over Cas and killing Dagon.  And then showing Cas paradise.  There was an intellect at work, from the womb.  Now how much of it was instinct? IDK.  But Jack knows he remembers 'when the bad lady died'.  So Jack remembers a moment from being in the womb.  He knew Dagon was bad and he remembers her dying.  He may or maynot remember that it was him (Jack) that powered up Cas to do the killing.  

Jack also says he "WAS" Kelly.  So, this is not a normal fetus before birth. Yes, it is instinctual to be born, and Kelly's death was an unfortunate byproduct.  But Dean's specific issue is Jack showing Cas 'paradise'.  That's the part Dean thinks was manipulative.  And Jack may not even remember that.  Jack (as Donatello said) is full of God juice, and that it wasn't malevolent.  "Good" God juice probably LOOKS and feels pretty damn good to an Angel.  But we don't know exactly what drove Cas to say Jack will bring paradise.   

[Katy M]

I guess the question becomes what does/did Jack know and how much is he responsible for.  Kelly's the one who took Cas's hand.  Jack may have felt threatened and done the power up, but we don't know if he planted paradise inside of Cas's head.  It could be that Kelly came up with that on her own and since she was connected to Jack that went through to cas. It's possible that that was an actual psychic image of what IS going to happen and Cas just received the knowledge along with the power.  Or, maybe he just saw what he wanted to see.  Maybe Jack's grace is just like this power that shows you your greatest wish.  Jack doesn't seem to currently know anything about his bringing Paradise on earth, so I don't know how much of that vision came directly from him.  And, I almost definitely (way to hedge) don't think it was a purposeful manipulation of any kind.

I still hope Jack runs away from home, though. 

[Wayward Son]

I actually think we may find out that the paradise vision was planted by Lucifer. We know that he was capable of sensing / reaching out to Jack and he has a history of planting false visions. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I actually think we may find out that the paradise vision was planted by Lucifer. We know that he was able of sensing / reaching out to Jack and he has a history of planting false visions. 

I hope that's how it turns out.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I hope that's how it turns out.

I think that or @ILoveReading‘s suggestion that Jack is playing a con are the most reasonable suggestions. Otherwise the inconsistency between the intelligence of foetus Jack and the childlike innocence of post birth Jack is ridiculous.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think that or @ILoveReading‘s suggestion that Jack is playing a con are the most reasonable suggestions. Otherwise the inconsistency between the intelligence of foetus Jack and the childlike innocence of post birth Jack is ridiculous.

I'm not yet convinced that vision of Paradise will not come true in some form yet. I'm just not sure it was a false vision, myself.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not yet convinced that vision of Paradise will not come true in some form yet. I'm just not sure it was a false vision, myself.

But even if it is true why did unborn Jack know about it, but post birth Jack doesn’t and instead seems worried that he’s evil? 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

But even if it is true why did unborn Jack know about it, but post birth Jack doesn’t and instead seems worried that he’s evil? 

Well, I'm not convinced unborn Jack knew anything. I think he just reacted and had no more control over what he showed Cass than he currently has over his powers. I think he acted out of pure instinct.

[Katy M]

52 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I'm not convinced unborn Jack knew anything. I think he just reacted and had no more control over what he showed Cass than he currently has over his powers. I think he acted out of pure instinct.

See, that's what I think, which is why I don't think it's fair to blame him for Cas's death.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Otherwise the inconsistency between the intelligence of foetus Jack and the childlike innocence of post birth Jack is ridiculous.

I think the inconsistency is due to the writers last Season wanting to have a question mark and sense of suspense regarding Jack - will he be good or evil - but have completely changed their mind over the summer and abandoned this concept in favour of making him powerful but wholly sweet, naive and innocent. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

See, that's what I think, which is why I don't think it's fair to blame him for Cas's death.

Both Mary and Cas are responsible for their own 'deaths', IMO. Until we're told differently, Cas burst back through the rift and charged at Lucifer with a weapon he knew couldn't hurt him, never mind kill him. And Mary, don't even get me started at her hubris, going after Lucifer with nothing more than magical brass knuckles. But Jack, intentionally or not, created the circumstance that lead to their demise - the rift, and influenced Cas into believing he should be allowed to be born, powers intact. For that, he is responsible, and that's all Dean sees right now. I liken it to hating the liquor store because your friend drove drunk and got himself killed.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Both Mary and Cas are responsible for their own 'deaths', IMO. Until we're told differently, Cas burst back through the rift and charged at Lucifer with a weapon he knew couldn't hurt him, never mind kill him. And Mary, don't even get me started at her hubris, going after Lucifer with nothing more than magical brass knuckles. But Jack, intentionally or not, created the circumstance that lead to their demise - the rift, and influenced Cas into believing he should be allowed to be born, powers intact. For that, he is responsible, and that's all Dean sees right now. I liken it to hating the liquor store because your friend drove drunk and got himself killed.

I agree with this! I'd argue if one did look at the longer term the blame should be as follows

 

Castiel is to blame for Jack's very existence. If he hadn't said yes to Lucifer he'd have never been in the position to sleep with Kelly and conceive Jack.

Crowley is to blame for Mary and Castiel confronting Lucifer in the first place. If he hadn't interfered with the attempt to send Lucifer back into the cage then Lucifer would not have been a problem for them to confront at that point. They'd still have Jack to deal with as Kelly slept with the president prior to that attempt (IIRC?), but Lucifer would no longer have been an issue. 

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Castiel is to blame for Jack's very existence. If he hadn't said yes to Lucifer he'd have never been in the position to sleep with Kelly and conceive Jack.

Lucifer didn't even end up being any help with the Amara situation, IIRC, so there wasn't even any good that came of that.  But, at least, without the benefit of hindsight, there was a possibility of goodcoming from it.  Crowley was just being an arrogant idiot.

[DeeDee79]

38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Castiel is to blame for Jack's very existence. If he hadn't said yes to Lucifer he'd have never been in the position to sleep with Kelly and conceive Jack.

Or you could say that Chuck is to blame. I know that after Amara ripped him out of Castiel he was dying at the moment but before going off with Amara he could have put him back in the cage. He was concerned enough about his being freed to depower him in the bunker & I'm sure that he could sense that he wasn't back in the cage. Only IMO of course!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Castiel is to blame for Jack's very existence. If he hadn't said yes to Lucifer he'd have never been in the position to sleep with Kelly and conceive Jack.

Not really. If Rowena had not tampered with the warding, Lucifer couldn't have zapped Sam, Dean and Cas into the Cage. I If Amara had left Lucifer in Cas they could have possibly exorcised him back to the Limbo cage with proper warding.

Crowley is responsible for Lucifer being out after he impregnated Kelly and Crowley is responsible for Lucifer being around to be able to kill Cas at all. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

One way I cope with Cas (and, less directly, Sam) being responsible for Luci breaking out of the cage is to remind myself that Chuck actually did think he needed Lucifer's help. If Lucifer hadn't already been out, Chuck would have retrieved him -- the only reason he didn't get Michael is because he was in "no condition" to help them. 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not really. If Rowena had not tampered with the warding, Lucifer couldn't have zapped Sam, Dean and Cas into the Cage. I If Amara had left Lucifer in Cas they could have possibly exorcised him back to the Limbo cage with proper warding.

Crowley is responsible for Lucifer being out after he impregnated Kelly and Crowley is responsible for Lucifer being around to be able to kill Cas at all. 

But then Crowley sacrificed himself to lock Lucifer away in the AU, which would've worked if Cas hadn't burst back through. It's funny how we are all blaming the victims in one way or another, when the only one really to blame is Lucifer.

[DittyDotDot]

OMG, you can drive yourself crazy trying to play the blame game!!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But then Crowley sacrificed himself to lock Lucifer away in the AU, which would've worked if Cas hadn't burst back through. It's funny how we are all blaming the victims in one way or another, when the only one really to blame is Lucifer.

If Crowley hadn't done his stupid ego trip thing in the first place Lucifer would have already been back in the Cage. The rift would have opened but there wouldn't have been need for Lucifer to be trapped in the AU at all.

Cas bursting back through to kill him isn't why Lucifer came back out. Lucifer wasn't going to stay in the rift because he wanted his son.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

If Crowley hadn't done his stupid ego trip thing in the first place Lucifer would have already been back in the Cage. The rift would have opened but there wouldn't have been need for Lucifer to be trapped in the AU at all.

Cas bursting back through to kill him isn't why Lucifer came back out. Lucifer wasn't going to stay in the rift because he wanted his son.

Well sure, Lucifer didn't want to be trapped in the AU, so then are assume the ritual was never going to work to close the rift? Seems to me like it was working, Dean and Sam were going to step through and have it close behind them. I took it that somehow Cas coming back through changed something so that it didn't close immediately behind the boys.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well sure, Lucifer didn't want to be trapped in the AU, so then are assume the ritual was never going to work to close the rift? Seems to me like it was working, Dean and Sam were going to step through and have it close behind them. I took it that somehow Cas coming back through changed something so that it didn't close immediately behind the boys.

I didn't take that to be the case at all. They were all in and out of the rift and I don't think Cas going back through had anything to do with how long the rift remained open.

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't take that to be the case at all. They were all in and out of the rift and I don't think Cas going back through had anything to do with how long the rift remained open.

So the ritual was never going to work? Was it just coincidence that it finally closed after Lucifer and Mary fell through?

Edited October 31, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

Shouldn't all this discussion be in a different thread, not for this ep?

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

So the ritual was never going to work? Was it just coincidence that it finally closed after Lucifer and Mary fell through?

 

I'm not sure if Crowley's spell had anything to do with it actually closing. I think he was wrong or mistaken. The piece of whatever it was appeared when Kelly touched the truck which was when she had her first contraction IIRC. And IMO closed once Jack was born. I could be wrong.

I think it would be interesting to find out that it's really only Jack's birth cycle that opened the rift and no amount of training will allow Jack to open it again. That it will take the birth of another nephelim to make more rifts so all of Sam's attempts to get him to harness his powers won't matter anyway.

[auntvi]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

It's possible that that was an actual psychic image of what IS going to happen and Cas just received the knowledge along with the power.  Or, maybe he just saw what he wanted to see.  Maybe Jack's grace is just like this power that shows you your greatest wish.  Jack doesn't seem to currently know anything about his bringing Paradise on earth, so I don't know how much of that vision came directly from him.  And, I almost definitely (way to hedge) don't think it was a purposeful manipulation of any kind.

There was something suspicious about Cas when he talked to Kelly about his vision of Paradise. He cut off her questions and didn't want to give her any details about the vision. I wonder if he concocted the vision story for the purpose of manipulating the Winchesters and maybe Jack, too.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, auntvi said:

There was something suspicious about Cas when he talked to Kelly about his vision of Paradise. He cut off her questions and didn't want to give her any details about the vision. I wonder if he concocted the vision story for the purpose of manipulating the Winchesters and maybe Jack, too.

For what reason?  Cas has never had a notion of Paradise.

[catrox14]

I have a legitimate question.

If Jack is only 3 days old and is being considered an infant, can he really even grieve? Like I see that being mentioned that Jack is sad because of Kelly dying but does a 3 day old infant have the capacity to grieve? Especially when no one is explaining grief to him? Is it because he WAS his mother?  Jack walks and talks as though he's a teenager. So which is it? Is he a 3 day old infant or a child old enough to feel grief? It was never said that Sam felt grief when he was 6 months old. Sam didn't remember his mother or feel connected to Mary other than through pictures.

The writing of Jack makes no sense IMO when I think about it for five freaking minutes. And that's why I don't enjoy Jack. And I don't see the little sad muffin that I'm supposed to feel sorry for.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have a legitimate question.

If Jack is only 3 days old and is being considered an infant, can he really even grieve? Like I see that being mentioned that Jack is sad because of Kelly dying but does a 3 day old infant have the capacity to grieve? Especially when no one is explaining grief to him? Is it because he WAS his mother?  Jack walks and talks as though he's a teenager. So which is it? Is he a 3 day old infant or a child old enough to feel grief? It was never said that Sam felt grief when he was 6 months old. Sam didn't remember his mother or feel connected to Mary other than through pictures.

The writing of Jack makes no sense IMO when I think about it for five freaking minutes. And that's why I don't enjoy Jack. And I don't see the little sad muffin that I'm supposed to feel sorry for.

I don't think it's an answerable question because 3 day olds can't walk or talk or think rationally.  But, he's not human.  And, this is why I have a problem with the whole nature vs. nuruture aspect of this.  If Jack was born with more awareness than your typical newborn than you can't nurture him as a typical newborn.  He came into the world with more info than Kelly could have talked to him through his womb. So, OK, you say, he was reading her mind like when a demon possesses someone.  In that case, he doesn't seem to know enough. Unless 3 months, or hwoever long she was pregnant, isn't enough to read the whole mind.  Ugh.  Have I mentioned how much I hate this storyline.  I would have much preferred it if Jack had disappeared after the birth, only to return midseason.  I don't even really care what they would have done with him at that point.  He could be Lucifer 2.0.  He could be trying to make that paradise that Cas was talking about.  He could have no concept of what he is.  Whatever.  But, Sam and Dean raising an already completely sentient being, with the side bar of one wanting to kill the other wanting to make him into a good person is just ugh.  Run away, Jack, run away.

[takalotti]

Run home Jack!

[Hanahope]

Yay, all caught up for tonight!  (not too easy, its been a busy week/weekend - and I can't watch live streaming on the bus).

I was happy to see Missouri again, and yes, why didn't she just have Dean and Jody hang out and kill the wraith when he came to kill Missouri??  sucks that yet another old character is gone.  And damn, I thought for a moment we were losing Jody too.  As many other hunters that have been killed, especially women, I hope Jody managers to stick it out.

I like seeing Sam try to help Jack.  Then Dean comes back and runs roughshod over everything.  But, maybe by doing so, it had a good side-effect, if Jack can bring Cas back.  Jack's powers are clearly triggered by emotion.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Yay, all caught up for tonight!  (not too easy, its been a busy week/weekend - and I can't watch live streaming on the bus).

I was happy to see Missouri again, and yes, why didn't she just have Dean and Jody hang out and kill the wraith when he came to kill Missouri??  sucks that yet another old character is gone.  And damn, I thought for a moment we were losing Jody too.  As many other hunters that have been killed, especially women, I hope Jody managers to stick it out.

I like seeing Sam try to help Jack.  Then Dean comes back and runs roughshod over everything.  But, maybe by doing so, it had a good side-effect, if Jack can bring Cas back.  Jack's powers are clearly triggered by emotion.

You did it! Congrats and now you can rest! LOL