S03.E07: Crème De Menthe

[Athena]

Quote

In the aftermath of a violent confrontation, Claire follows her conscience as a surgeon, even though it could put her and Jamie's lives at risk. At the same time, Jamie attempts to evade the reach of the Crown as its representative closes in on his illegal dealings.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[GHScorpiosRule]

“Auntie Claire!” 

Me: ???????

And Sam did 90% percent of his stunts! So that was no stuntman jumping in the smoke!

Thanks be to the teevee Gods that Barton was responsible for his own death!

So, One-Eyed blind man isn’t presumed dead like in the buik. And he’s Percival’s stooge, too? Now I’m going to have to pull out the buik to refresh my memory.

UGH, to the Campbells.

Fergus was beyond adorable! I love grown up Fergus so much!

So they still tip toe around the hosebeast, not mentioning her until Fergus says “other wife.” Man, they reaallllly want to drag out just who Jamie is “married” to for the unsullied, don’t they??

I do appreciate how insecure Jamie still is. When he asked uncertainly whether Claire would return after seeing Margaret Campbell, I got the FEELS!

Then I wanted to slap the back of Jamie’s head when he said and thinks it’s perfectly okay to set up house at a fucking brothel!??

Oh and Wee Ian is also verra adorable! And I love his friendship with Fergus.

Off to rewatch!

And on a purely purely SHALLOW note, Jamie’s hair next week? Much better and verra mooch like his Culloden hair!????

Wot?

Edited October 29, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[koboldin]

Ok. Still processing this episode. I figured this would be an opportunity to streamline the plots of the book - so why spend a giant chunk of time on a  surgery to start the episode? I didn't find that useful at all , considering the guy was dead from the title. 

So, it looks like the Fiend murder plot is gone and Margaret now is a part of a brother/sister fortune telling pair. Actually, I like that. 

Made more sense not to try to rescue anything substantial from the fire - that always seemed strange how much was saved in the book. I thought the deflowering of young Ian was better this way, too. 

Definitely a mixed bag. The resentment of Jamie to not raising Brianna and the stupid bikini got an unresolved scene.  Claire gets sanctimonious about young Ian and parenting. I guess they are using Brianna as a way to show Jamie's anger at not getting to raise his own children. This is maybe to make Claire already jumpy before Jamie and L's marriage is revealed? I'm not liking their using Brianna this way at all.

[toolazy]

That might be my least favorite Outlander episode to date, but I think that I have to see the rest of the season to properly judge it.  Why does Ian look a hundred years old?  

[GHScorpiosRule]

Since I don’t give any fucks about Brianna, I don’t care really how she’s used. What I do not care for is this ongoing theme that Claire chose to leave on the eve of Culloden. With all the “you left,” “I left” nonsense. When those of us who watched last season know and saw she fought NOT to go back and it was Jamie insisting she do so.????

Edited October 29, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[katville]

I didn't like it either and it pains me to say that. I hope it grows on me with a second viewing.

[theschnauzers]

I don’t know what to think yet. Will need a rewatch as well. And may need the next episode to see where this one was headed.

I am impressed that Sam did so much of the stunt work with the fire. I do hope they have a plan for a printing press that ought to be needed: that's going to be important after season three.

[Dust Bunny]

22 minutes ago, koboldin said:

So, it looks like the Fiend murder plot is gone and Margaret now is a part of a brother/sister fortune telling pair. Actually, I like that. 

Made more sense not to try to rescue anything substantial from the fire - that always seemed strange how much was saved in the book. I thought the deflowering of young Ian was better this way, too. 

Definitely a mixed bag. The resentment of Jamie to not raising Brianna and the stupid bikini got an unresolved scene.  Claire gets sanctimonious about young Ian and parenting. I guess they are using Brianna as a way to show Jamie's anger at not getting to raise his own children. This is maybe to make Claire already jumpy before Jamie and L's marriage is revealed? I'm not liking their using Brianna this way at all.

I like the fiend -> fortune change, as well. It makes me wonder what happens to Yi Tien Cho. (I LOVE that Claire calls him that.)

I was bummed to see the press destroyed, but yes, this makes more sense.

Jamie is being kind of a dick. Is he trying to prepare himself for when the manure hits the mill at Lallybroch? I'm sort of Team Claire, at this point. (The preview of them on the cliff intrigues me.)

There were a lot of changes in this episode, and lots of seed planting for later seasons (bodies thrown overboard, Brianna-Jamie issues, etc).

I did love the brotherly dynamic between Fergus and Wee Ian. It's a delight to watch the growth of Clan Fraser.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Dust Bunny

[TaurusRose]

Didn’t really like Claire at all.  Maybe a second viewing will soften me up toward her a bit, but as it stands right now...SMH no.

[Cloudberryjam]

Agree, why is Claire so cold and argumentative? Sheesh. 

Overall I actually really liked it!

Love Ian and Fergus

Love hot superhero Batman Jamie and his kinky boots

I love the crazy Campbell storyline and the cuckoo way it plays out later

These bananas plots are what i love from Voyager 

Next week will be a wild one! Jenny, Marsali and She who shall not be named!

[Glaze Crazy]

This one was an odd one, IMO. No real resolutions, more random and/or mysterious stuff being dropped all over the place leading into the rest of the season, I guess. I'll also have to see how it works in the episodes sequence once all the episodes are out. It might end up being more important once the story plays out over the season.  I did really like the scene with Fergus and wee Ian and the specific mention that they make a good team. I hope these characters get expanded and fleshed out even more for this series, like they did with Murtaugh's character.

[Cloudberryjam]

47 minutes ago, toolazy said:

That might be my least favorite Outlander episode to date, but I think that I have to see the rest of the season to properly judge it.  Why does Ian look a hundred years old?  

He looks sooooo old! Claire looks 30, Jamie 35, and Ian 70! This is getting to be so bad that I love it!

[Cloudberryjam]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Didn’t really like Claire at all.  Maybe a second viewing will soften me up toward her a bit, but as it stands right now...SMH no.

Its like she travelled back 200 years to argue.  Just hug him Claire!! Tell the poor guy “I love you” ffs!!!! 

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, toolazy said:

That might be my least favorite Outlander episode to date, but I think that I have to see the rest of the season to properly judge it.  Why does Ian look a hundred years old?  

I am not enjoying this season at all. Something is missing and I think Claire and Jamie lost their chemistry. They just do not seem to be in love. There is no spark and the plot is really boring me. 

[Cloudberryjam]

Claire is being such a wet blanket. She and Geordie would make a good couple!

[Petunia846]

This one I liked! I just need to resign myself that they're never going to get the really big moments right, but all the things in between will be enjoyable.

Loved, but had to laugh at Sam's Batman leap over the ledge in the burning print shop. :P I bet he enjoyed filming that.

While I'm not super thrilled with the content of the discussion, I am glad that the discussion of Brianna is not finished for Jamie.

In general, I'm happy to see these plot wheels turning and some familiar things being set up. I was really pleased with how they used Willoughby this week. We see him with responsibilities and Jamie's trust, and he definitely has an interest in Claire's medical knowledge so that will be interesting later.

I regret not getting the book scene of the way Ian meets Claire again for the first time, but the tone wasn't right for that (nor the timing). *whispers* But we did get more emotion out of him in that initial moment of seeing Claire than we got out of Jamie before the ale pot incident...

[areca]

7 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I am not enjoying this season at all. Something is missing and I think Claire and Jamie lost their chemistry. They just do not seem to be in love. There is no spark and the plot is really boring me. 

Agreed.  I don't see season 5 happening at this rate.  Didn't care for the reunion episode, didn't care for this one.   I also think it was a stuntman who did the leap in the printshop - there weren't very many stunts at all and the whatshisface was careful to say 90% surrounding that particular scene.  The absolute only episode that I felt was in any way comparable to past seasons was the one where Jamie leaves Helwater.  Everything else is very much meh.  Which reminds me, I have another unpopular opinion to share over in said thread.

Edited October 29, 2017 by areca

[Ziggy]

7 hours ago, koboldin said:

So, it looks like ... Margaret now is a part of a brother/sister fortune telling pair.

I love this change!  That story line was a bit confusing, and there are more than enough confusing story lines in this book.  This one makes so much sense ... given the last few chapters of the book.  (I'm almost done rereading, and I'm in the middle of her chapter right now!)

[cardigirl]

Was wondering if the fight Claire and Jamie have where Claire defends Frank's parenting skills was an add-in? And I too have been wondering about the accusatory tone about Claire leaving. Jamie didn't give her much of a choice at the end of last season. That seems off to me. 

 

Not my favorite episode, but I did enjoy young Ian and Fergus. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by cardigirl

[katville]

Ian looking so old fits in with the book, where Ian has lived a hard, back-breaking life. Some would say Jamie has too but I think that the weight of Lallybroch on Ian's shoulders and dealing with an amputation during a time period where there was really no therapy or assistance prematurely aged him. Steven Cree still did a great job with that scene.

I liked the Fergus and Ian scene too. I am having a hard time pinpointing what I disliked so much about the ep. Spending so much precious time on the surgery of a character who tried to kill Claire? Claire being so brittle and cold? I did like the scene where they argued as I thought that was a normal reaction now that they are getting used to each other again. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by katville

[Ziggy]

It was hard to watch some of Claire's scenes.  I wonder if she was a bit in shock at the beginning and just couldn't see past what she had done.  She had tunnel vision and could only seem to focus on trying to save the man.  She almost didn't crack a smile the whole episode.  I just wanted to shake her and remind her that she was no longer in the 20th century, but ...

She was so right about Jamie lying to Ian.  It was one thing in the book when Jamie honestly didn't know where Young Ian was and was somewhat lying by omission, but he flat out lied to Ian.  And worse, Jamie doesn't know what it's like to be a parent and worry.  Claire was completely right about that.  Not sure she took the correct approach, but she was right!

I like that Jamie brought Bree into the conversation.  I know he loves her and is very hurt that he didn't get to be a part of her life, but it's good to see that passion!

[DittyDotDot]

It's interesting how this episode doesn't seem to be well received considering how this portion of the book I found very hard to get through. It's where the book switches from almost entirely character-driven to almost entirely plot-driven and it was very jarring for me. Seems like they captured that feeling on the show too. 

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

Was wondering if the fight Claire and Jamie have where Claire defends Frank's parenting skills was an add-in? And I too have been wondering about the accusatory tone about Claire leaving. Jamie didn't give her much of a choice at the end of last season. That seems off to me. 

I don't know, I seem to recall part of the fight after the Lagohaire reveal was them fighting about who made who leave and such. It seems like they're just setting the stage here which is good, I think. In the book, when they first come back together where they're both trying to just live in the moment pretend everything is fine now that they're back together. There's a lot of pent up anger between both of them they aren't dealing with and neither is really being honest with the other for fear it will burst their little bubble. The Lagohaire incident breaks that wide open.  So, I think it's good they're setting the stage here so the Lagohaire incident will hopefully  feel earned in the end.

Also, I actually get why other people outside of Jamie and Claire would see Claire as abandoning them. They don't know Jamie basically forced Claire back through the stones, nor do they know there was no way for her to contact and/or help them over the last 20 years of famine and hardship. All they know is she showed back up when things had gotten better. And, I can see Claire feeling a certain amount of guilt over that even if it wasn't her fault. Guilt is weird that way.

Edited October 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[unlfan03]

I'll with hold final judgement until the season is complete, but right now seems to be the worst episode of the season. It seemed to drag, and almost felt like they were checking boxes just to get through the story where they could burn the print shop and move on to Lollybrauch. Fergus and Ian were amusing and probably the best part of the episode. I did not like the change with the tax man and the smuggling at all. Nor am I a fan of the Campbells. I was really hoping that they would be the one story line that the writers would remove, but it seems like they have "tweaked" it and I could see that it could go either worse or better in the end.

On the other hand Mr Willoughby remains a better character than expected and though I find it a bit heavy handed, I still think Jamie and Claire's relationship makes sense. She's not even been back 24 hours and much like any couple that has been separated for a long time it takes fits and starts to get you back on the same rhythm. I will continue to fanwank that some of her coldness is the realization that she has left the 1960's where she was respected as a doctor to move to the 1760's where she has no real rights or ability to practice unless Jamie okays it. Once she realizes she can be a doctor still she seems much more excited, but the timing is wrong due to Jamie's smuggling business going to pot before his eyes. Even he states he uses his profits to send back to Lollybrauch (and to she who is not named). I am hoping that the discussion on the cliff helps to resolve most of the tension and starts putting their relationship back on an even footing. But really the tension Jamie's side it probably won't fully be gone until he can just be with and be one person again.

Also kuddos to the team that cut the trailer for next week very little plot line is given away no spectacular reveals keep that up because there are some big reveals in the coincidence New World that are better off not spoiled.

[FnkyChkn34]

Sorry if this was said, but I only have a second and didn't read all other posts...

I liked this episode, but - anyone else annoyed that Claire just screams "Jamie" anywhere and everywhere??  He's Alexander in Edinburgh!

Edited October 29, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
Fixing phone typo

[Dust Bunny]

6 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I am not enjoying this season at all. Something is missing and I think Claire and Jamie lost their chemistry. They just do not seem to be in love. There is no spark and the plot is really boring me. 

Based off the conversation on the cliff in the preview, I’m hoping Jamie and Claire are in the process of getting that chemistry back. Jamie has been hiding the fundamental truth about Laoghaire. Maybe once that’s out in the open, and they’re both fully truthful with each other, that chemistry will return.

[WatchrTina]

11 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

*whispers* But we did get more emotion out of him in that initial moment of seeing Claire than we got out of Jamie before the ale pot incident...

I HEARD that!  :)

Your post made me laugh.  I've enjoyed your comments over the years so I think is is very interesting that we have significantly different opinions of this and the prior episode.  That schism is, I suspect, mirrored by the fan base as a whole.  I'm going to watch this one a second time before weighing in in much detail but my initial reaction was mainly negative.  HOWEVER -- I'm a reader and they changed a lot of plot points and I know that I frequently find that jarring when I see it for the first time.  So I'm going watch again and see if I can let go of expectations and enjoy it more.

But to agree with PETUNIA846 (a little bit), I, too, was moved to see Ian's tears.  I also thought that his emotion was well mixed with a decent helping of "We mourned you -- how could you not tell us you survived?"  That feeling -- that deep, in-the-gut anger at having been deceived about something SO important -- is present in the book but it's kind of simmering below the surface.  Yet isn't the TV reaction the more human, the more "true" depiction of how someone would react?  I'm glad we're seeing it on screen.  (It also helps inform Jenny's behavior next episode.)

Note also that Claire looks good. She looks healthy.  Ian, on the other hand has aged harder (someone up thread said he looks 70 -- and there are good, as-yet-unspoken, plot-based reasons for that).  It's clear he (and his family) have suffered privations in the past 20 year that apparently Claire (who doesn't even have a gray hair thanks to Miss Clairol) somehow managed to avoid.  So his joy at seeing her has to be mixed with resentment at being deceived and the fact that she obviously spent those 20 years in an environment where food shortages were NOT a daily fact of life.

Edited October 29, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Eureka]

9 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 

And Sam did 90% percent of his stunts! So that was no stuntman jumping in the smoke!

I’m guessing that was the 10 percent that was a stuntman.

[Quickbeam]

Meh from me. Even as a health care professional, if someone attacked and tried to rape/murder me, I’d let his head explode. *shrug*

This felt like a lot of filler. And it dragged for me. 

[Petunia846]

37 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I HEARD that!  :)

Your post made me laugh.  I've enjoyed your comments over the years so I think is is very interesting that we have significantly different opinions of this and the prior episode.  That schism is, I suspect, mirrored by the fan base as a whole.  I'm going to watch this one a second time before weighing in in much detail but my initial reaction was mainly negative.  HOWEVER -- I'm a reader and they changed a lot of plot points and I know that I frequently find that jarring when I see it for the first time.  So I'm going watch again and see if I can let go of expectations and enjoy it more.

See, I'm a reader too, and this time every change that popped up I was just like, "Oh, they're doing that? Okay, cool." I guess because these are such unemotional issues, like the stuff with the Campbells. Who really cares? I can immediately see why they would make that adaptive change to streamline the storyline, and it makes perfect sense, and it doesn't impact my emotional enjoyment, so I can run with it.

I think, as I said at the very start of my post, I just need to never have any kind of hope for anything about those big tent-pole moments for the series, because they're just never going to align even remotely with what I want them to be. The production team really just isn't ever going to win, but that's life when you're making art. You're never going to please everyone completely. (I'm also a writer, so I try to remember this myself.)

This week's episode had much less pressure on it, although it did need to do a lot of work to get us from point A to point B. I just thought it was engaging, had good pacing, had a few interesting character beats, and when the end of the episode came I didn't even realize it was time for the end. I also came to like young Ian a lot more this time. I think where we as readers have (most of us) read all the books, so our mental picture of young Ian has so much baggage and is of a person who has really lived a lot of crazy stuff, because we're picturing WIMOHB!Ian, it's hard to readjust to remember who he was when we first meet him in Voyager. Even by the end of Voyager he'll be vastly changed. But I feel a bit better about him now.

[Starla]

Boy am I happy to see Mr. Willoughby/Yi Tien Cho being treated with respect in the show. I finally have a chance to love his character as much as I wanted to in the book. I expected him to pull out his needles during the surgery, but they'll probably save that for Jamie's sea sickness.

Fergus and Young Ian are adorable and made the episode for me. They are so well cast, and I love seeing their brotherly relationship. Fergus and his menage-a-trois story, ha!

Like others, I didn't care for the surgery scene... couldn't the guy have died when he hit his head and saved us some time and angst? But I guess we needed to establish that Claire still wants to save everyone, and get her to the apothecary to meet Mr. Campbell (can't recall his first name. Arthur?). It's curious that he is now Margaret's fortune telling pimp rather than a reverend.

Though I agree with Claire that Jenny and Ian deserve to know where their 16 year old son is, I wish she would wait to find out all the facts before jumping to conclusions and accusing Jamie of wrong-doing. She's walked into the middle of his life and has no clue what's going on, I think she should give him a chance to explain before judging his actions. That said, she's right in many cases. The upcoming Laoghaire fiasco makes me grit my teeth in frustration. The longer J&C are together, the angrier I get with Jamie for not telling her. What is he thinking?! It's right up there with the Book 4 Roger situation as one of my least favorite storylines.

I just want to hug Ian. The tears in his eyes when he saw Claire was so real and touching. He seems like one of the best guys ever. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don’t think Sam and Cait have lost their chemistry at all. I see two actors who are doing a FANTASTIC job of playing characters 20 years older and who have been separated for the same amount of time and learning to readjust to each other. Plus, it’s only been ONE DAY. But I also know chemistry is subjective.

Though the decision was made not to have Jamie and Claire sob against each other, I had no issues with the soft tears from Claire or from Jamie, along with the sniffing back of tears in the previous episode. And of course different people will show emotions differently when they see Claire again.

I have no doubt that Jamie and Claire will become one fighting the world soon enough. But unlike when they first met, they now have 20 years of baggage and lives lived without each other. They have to deal with that. It would be unbelievable for me if there weren’t arguments or fights along the way. 

What they don’t say in words? Jamie conveys his love and feelings for Claire with his eyes, and the way he touches her.  And Claire with her eyes.

I won’t lie-I cringed on first watch as Claire operated on Barton, then closed my eyes on the rewatch. Just EWWWWW!!! and gross.????

And as for the speculation that Sam and Cait don’t like each other? One only has to see them together in public. They’ve become very good friends, and there is nothing I’ve seen that would indicate they don’t care for each other.

And I know

from the promo pictures of “Jamaica” that Jamie and Claire will find their way to each other.

 

I loved and laughed how Wee Ian haggled and sold the brandy and threw in the casks of Crème de Menthe to McDaniel.

[toolazy]

I believe that if we're sensing distance between Sam & Cait in public appearances it's because they're holding back on purpose, not because they don't like each other.  Remember the huge flap last year when they had to come out and clarify that they were not seeing each other and how furious that made people?  You should see the crap that McKenzie Mauzie gets on social media - there are people who say the most godawful, hostile threatening things to her just because she's seeing Sam.  

So I think that Sam and Cait are just trying not to poke the bear of the wackos on the fringes of Outlander fandom.

As for this episode, I'll have to watch it again but my issues with it really aren't because they changed things from the book, I don't think.  I just really did not like Claire. At all.  It's almost like she was an entirely different character from last week.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, toolazy said:

I believe that if we're sensing distance between Sam & Cait in public appearances it's because they're holding back on purpose, not because they don't like each other.  Remember the huge flap last year when they had to come out and clarify that they were not seeing each other and how furious that made people?  You should see the crap that McKenzie Mauzie gets on social media - there are people who say the most godawful, hostile threatening things to her just because she's seeing Sam.  

So I think that Sam and Cait are just trying not to poke the bear of the wackos on the fringes of Outlander fandom.

THIS!!!! A GAZILLION TIMES THIS!!!

[GingerMarie]

I agree with you guys on Claire's behavior.  They did not kiss one time, barely touched each other and very poor eye contact.  I have said this before 'Claire wants what Claire wants'. And she gets it.  She has always had a very strong personality and that just gets stronger with age.  Her comments about Jamie not being young Ian's father was pretty harsh.  She did not show any remorse after the comment expect to say something along the lines of 'this place is too rigid'.   

My other comment is the print shop was going to burn whether she  was there or not.   Purvicel was going to look for the alcohol whether Claire was there or not.  So she did not bring that trouble to Jamie.  He did that all on his own.  

[LoveLeigh]

Could the problem be the scripts? I am not a book reader but enjoy reading the "book talk," so I stay in this thread. Plus, the "no book talk" thread has no activity. This episode was so boring and dull, and that subplot of Claire performing the surgery when he died anyway seemed like filler. 

The only episode that I enjoyed so far this season was the episode where Jamie had his son. 

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Starla said:

Boy am I happy to see Mr. Willoughby/Yi Tien Cho being treated with respect in the show. I finally have a chance to love his character as much as I wanted to in the book. I expected him to pull out his needles during the surgery, but they'll probably save that for Jamie's sea sickness.

Fergus and Young Ian are adorable and made the episode for me. They are so well cast, and I love seeing their brotherly relationship. Fergus and his menage-a-trois story, ha!

Like others, I didn't care for the surgery scene... couldn't the guy have died when he hit his head and saved us some time and angst? But I guess we needed to establish that Claire still wants to save everyone, and get her to the apothecary to meet Mr. Campbell (can't recall his first name. Arthur?). It's curious that he is now Margaret's fortune telling pimp rather than a reverend.

Though I agree with Claire that Jenny and Ian deserve to know where their 16 year old son is, I wish she would wait to find out all the facts before jumping to conclusions and accusing Jamie of wrong-doing. She's walked into the middle of his life and has no clue what's going on, I think she should give him a chance to explain before judging his actions. That said, she's right in many cases. The upcoming Laoghaire fiasco makes me grit my teeth in frustration. The longer J&C are together, the angrier I get with Jamie for not telling her. What is he thinking?! It's right up there with the Book 4 Roger situation as one of my least favorite storylines.

I just want to hug Ian. The tears in his eyes when he saw Claire was so real and touching. He seems like one of the best guys ever. 

This. I was probably most annoyed by her judgemental, smug attitude. Particularly when she was saying how she could have saved the attacker no one  cared about if she were in Boston. I rolled my eyes so hard they got cramps. I wanted Jamie to yell, “Look around.  Does this look like Boston 200 years from now? If you miss it so much GO BACK!!!!” Claire bugged me so much in this episode that I was actively rooting for the welcome she’s going to get when she returns to Lallybroch. 

I agree about Ian the senior; the actor is killing it.

[areca]

29 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Could the problem be the scripts? I am not a book reader but enjoy reading the "book talk," so I stay in this thread. Plus, the "no book talk" thread has no activity. This episode was so boring and dull, and that subplot of Claire performing the surgery when he died anyway seemed like filler. 

The book treatment of this entire episode was far more action-filled, rewarding, and Season 1 like overall.  I have no idea why they went out of their way to make this episode so boring!  They had a ton of great material to work with and used pretty much none of it.  The death of the exciseman, the daring rescue in the fire, Young Ian's first time, and so much more...  The choices were just 100% wrong.  0 for 2 now for me.  I'm going to see this season through, but if they don't actually make the story shine again (not the characters), then I'm probably out.

Edited October 29, 2017 by areca

[AheadofStraight]

I was kinda bummed at the wife reveal. It seemed like non readers were pretty clueless what he was hiding and I think this diminishes the surprise. I hope the "previously on" before the start of the next episode doesn't feature a scene with her in order to keep some shock value...

[Atlanta]

Love the bromance of Fergus and wee Ian. Love these two.

[Kata01]

So now we know what else Claire brought with her through the stones: that massive chip on her shoulder. Shrew, table for one? 

Jamie finds nothing wrong living in a brothel with Claire? It’s ok, there’s no rent to pay? My jaw dropped. Who was that blasé mobster-ish Highlander?

Claire hasn’t been back 24 hours and she is performing brain surgery? Brain surgery?? They couldn't have come up with something simple like a shoulder dislocation. Thank goodness, though, without the benefit of modern medical technology, Claire was able to diagnose the patient (with the brain injury) and miraculously know she had enough time to zip on down to the local apothecary for supplies (insert sarcasm). Then she’s boring holes in a man’s skull...the entire scenario was as preposterous as it was absurd. 

I have a feeling when the series run is over, this episode will rate as one of the worst for me. 

Ian, Fergus, and Young Ian were the bright spots. I love tv Young Ian as dearly as the book version. 

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

The fight that opened the episode was good.  Claire still remembers some of what Angus taught her back in season one – she seemed to be holding the knife as he recommended – but she’s forgotten his lessons about stabbing upward into a vital organ, which makes sense given the passage of time.  Still, her fighting back probably took him a bit by surprise and his stumbling and whacking his head on the hearth was a good outcome for a fight that Claire could not plausibly win.

I’m not sure this qualifies as “good” but am I willing to stretch the definition to say that the frantic action of this episode IS true to the book. From the moment that Book!Jamie recollects that he’s “forgotten Mr. Willoughby” to when they finally get the heck out of Edinburgh after the fire, the book is just a freight train of action, action, action with a wee stop in the brothel for some tender reunion sex.  We got the extended version of the tender reunion sex last week and so this week we have a LOT of plot to get through.  All things considered I thought they did a decent job of getting us where we needed to be – all the way to the final scene of Jamie watching his print shop go up in flames.  I have to admit that is a pretty damn powerful metaphor for the utter destruction of “A Malcolm’s” life that we just witnessed.

Okay this is another stretch.  I did like the scene between Jamie & Claire after the excise-man dies.  Claire apologizes for all the trouble she’s caused (although I’d argue that NONE of what happened is her fault – it’s all the direct result of investigations into Jamie’s smuggling operations that began before she showed up.)  Anyway, Jamie says in response “I would give up everything I have for us to be together again.”  Glad to hear it Jamie because your secret storage location at the brothel has just been compromised so your smuggling business is about to take a huge hit and that press you’re so fond of is about to go up in flames.  Thank GOODNESS Claire came back when she did. If not – all that shit would have happened just the same (possibly worse if the excise-man had found Jamie’s ledgers in his room) and Jamie’s life would have been destroyed AGAIN.  Instead, the burning of the print shop feels like the end of a chapter in Jamie’s life, not the end of the world.

That line about how when Claire walked into the print shop “it was as if the sun returned and cast out the darkness” is a call back to one of Ron & Terry’s favorite lines from the Wedding episode – the line about how when Jamie saw Claire in her wedding dress it was as if the sun came out from behind a cloud.  That line does come from the books but also mirrors something Ron actually said to Terry about how he felt when he first noticed her during a production meeting – how when she leaned forward to say something it was as if the room suddenly lit up.  Aw.  That’s sweet that they reprised it again.

Jamie’s question, “You will return, afterward?” (when Claire goes to treat Margaret Campbell) is a nice hint into the uncertainty he is still feeling.  It helps me forgive him a wee bit for the BIG secret he’s still keeping from her.  That big secret is probably eating at him and feeding his insecurity.

Fergus’ description of his first time, “two women and one moi,” is so perfect.  Of COURSE a boy raised in a brothel would decide to make his own first time exceptional.

Oooh, nice job showing the one-eyed henchman in the corner of the pub watching wee Ian.  It’s a complete reversal of the book (wherein Ian tracked HIM) but I like it. (I have to hand-wave away the question of HOW he knows to follow Ian).

Ian senior’s tears.  “Nuf said.

Oooh nice foreshadowing by Ian senior that of all his fears about wee Ian, the worst thing he can think of is if wee Ian were snatched up by a press-gang (and forced onto a ship) and he and Jenny never see him again. 

Ian warns Jamie not to delay in telling Claire the truth about his second marriage.  I like that better than Book!Ian being pressured into being a part of the conspiracy of silence on the matter of Laoghaire.

When Jamie starts trying to move the press during the fire I thought, OMG he’s not going to try to save it (like he does in the book) with Ian lying unconscious on the floor (which is decidedly NOT in the book.) But no, he actually sacrifices his precious press in order to save wee Ian.  Aw.

Jamie takes the time during the fire to save the portrait of Willie.  AWW

 

THE BAD

Yo, Claire – you’re in a brothel.  There are people within earshot (we often see them right outside your bedroom door).  Scream for goodness sake.  Help came (too late) due to some of the lasses merely thinking they heard sounds of a scuffle.  A good, full-throated scream of terror would have brought help all the sooner. 

I am SO irritated by Claire wanting to treat the head injury of the man who tried to kill her and who had stated his intention to rape her.  The only fan-wank I can come up with for that is that Claire switched into healer mode as a psychological defense mechanism.  By focusing on saving him she was able to suppress the terror she was feeling at having been attacked and at having to defend herself with a knife (again.)  Perhaps that’s how she coped with fear while serving in World War II – by focusing on the medical tasks at hand and not thinking about her own personal peril.  If that is what they were going for then, in my opinion, it did not work.  Claire’s mood-change was too abrupt and it strained credulity.  I found the whole scenario deeply annoying and felt an enormous wave of relief when the bad-guy finally croaked.

Jamie’s notion of continuing to live in the brothel with Claire seems out of character.  Given that she was just attacked in “their” room, it also seems clearly unsafe.  I’m having a hard time accepting Jamie’s reasoning.  I get that he likes not having to pay rent anywhere and thus can send more money home to his family, but he actually said in the last episode that he should not have brought her there (when the sounds of other patrons getting it on penetrated into their love-nest.)  So his suddenly being okay with his wife being housed in a brothel long-term seems inconsistent with the prior episode.

Is it realistic that a surgeon in the 1760’s would “loan” one of his instruments to an unknown person just because a messenger from a brothel showed up asking for it?  I can try to fan-wank that the surgeon is a regular patron of Madam Jeanne’s and so might be disposed to grant her a favor, but handing over one of his surgical instruments – one used for a particularly tricky operation on the skull to relieve pressure on the brain?  No, I don’t see that happening at all.  I wonder what possessed the writers to choose an injury that Claire was not capable of attempting to treat with her own bag of tricks.

The whole scene of Sir Percival and his one-eyed sniffer-dog of a servant searching Madame Jeanne’s basement makes no sense.  We’ve seen him accept a bribe for ignoring Jamie’s smuggling activities in Edinburgh.  The storage facility at Madam Jeanne’s is IN Edinburgh.  There is no evidence that those particular casks are bound for the two outlying towns they mentioned.  Jamie DOES make mention of his “warehouse” later in the episode so I guess I can fan-wank that the bribe only covers that warehouse and that this second, secret storage facility under the brothel is where they store the items bound for other locations not covered by the bribe.  I can fan-wank that but, damn, that’s a lot of work to make sense of this episode.

Also, as I said before, people fucking on the ground floor of a brothel in full view of anyone who happens to walk in the front door is absurd.  The whores may not care about being seen en flagrante delicto but you can’t tell me that your average Edinburgh laborer would be comfortable having sex in plain view of a room full of strangers.

Ian’s “friend” says “I’m not a whore tonight, am I?”  So does that means she’s a part-time barmaid, part-time whore?  Does that make sense?  And would a part-time whore give it away for free?  I don’t understand why they put that in the script.  I guess they want to make it plain that her having sex with Ian is not a big deal to her (so that Ian doesn’t come across as a love’em and leave’em rogue.) But I thought that was weird.

So . . . why exactly does Jamie leave a fire burning in the print shop along with a pot of hot molten whatever-that-was that Ian flings at the one-eyed guy?  The print shop burning down seems downright inevitable when you see all those unattended open flames in that shop.

Alas, the chorography of the fire makes no sense.  Book Ian tries to fight it and then retreats upstairs and gets trapped.  TV Ian retreats into some chamber with a door but when Jamie breaks in Ian is passed out on the floor of the main room.  I want to love this scene – they put so much effort into making it look realistic and exciting.  But I just can’t get over the perception that Ian could have gotten out on his own if he’d just made an effort.

 

THE UGLY

Diana has a habit of occasionally going into a lot of gory details about medical procedures.  I speed-read through those bits.  It looks like the writers for this episode caught that bug what with all the close-up shots of the trepanning.  I had to avert my eyes during those scenes.

Claire criticizes Jamie’s parenting skills, or lack thereof (with regard to Ian) and then Frank’s role in raising Brianna gets brought up.  Ouch.  That whole scene makes my heart ache.  Claire does have a point though.  When she says “Jenny must be in agony” and Jamie replies, with a disconcerting smile, “But the lad’s safe.”  That really IS rather shockingly indifferent of Jamie.  “Trust me Claire.  Jenny and Ian dinna ken what’s best for the lad.  I’m the only one teaching him the ways of the world.”  Holy shit.  I don’t have children but even I got pissed off at that.

 

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

What do you suppose Jamie is thinking when he looks at the excise-man’s gun (after he unsuccessfully tries to stop Claire from tending to the man’s wounds)?  I’ll tell you what I think.  I think he’s contemplating putting a bullet between the man’s eyes if he does not croak on his own.  I think Jamie is just humoring Claire.  He just TOLD her what will happen if the man recovers and accuses Claire of assaulting him.  She’ll be arrested and no one will care it was self-defense.  So I think Jamie hasn’t the slightest intention of letting that man EVER walk out of that brothel alive.  I think that whole scene was created just to introduce the conflict that Claire’s Hippocratic oath will frequently inject into their lives AND to give her a reason to make a frantic trip to the apothecary which leads to her promise to visit the Campbells.  The writers obviously needed the Campbells introduced but there is just no time for Claire to do any leisurely shopping or make new, random acquaintances.  Jamie even says that Claire is reckless to have agreed to go treat someone she doesn’t know.  In the book you buy it because the conversation in the apothecary is more unhurried and cordial and because Campbell is a clergyman, not a sketchy guy who side-eyes her purse and requests her services for no fee in return for letting her urgent order be attended to first.

WTH is Fergus talking about when he says that there were rumors that “Milady took some lives as well”?  Claire stabbed her would-be-rapist in episode 108 but it seems unlikely that that story would have followed her to Paris where Fergus would have heard it.  I suppose Murtagh could have told him but that seems unlikely for the taciturn Murtagh.  I suppose we can imagine that there were some on that rent-collecting trip who know about Claire killing her would-be-rapist and the story has been told and retold (and perhaps embellished in the telling) and made its way to Lallybroch. Other than that, TVClaire has only ever participated in one other killing – the aid she gave to Jamie in killing Dougal.  No one but Jamie knows that and he would never tell.  So what the hell is Fergus talking about?  Hmmmm. She did give Colum poison so he could end his own suffering.  Dougal was pretty upset about that.  Are we supposed to think that Dougal accused her of that out loud at some point during the brief interval between Colum’s death and his own and some of the men of Lallybroch heard it and carried the tale back to Lallybroch with them?  That’s the best fan-wank I can come up with.

I’ll be interested to hear during the podcast whether the rain in the scene where Fergus and Ian sell the casks was real.  I’m betting it was since it isn’t raining in any other scenes.  Oh the vagaries of Scottish weather.

Ian takes point in the negotiation of the sale of the casks.  Does that ring true to you?  Is it likely that Fergus, a 30-something man, would let his 16-year-old foster brother take the lead?  The only rationalization I can come up with is that the writers wanted to show Ian as being canny and resourceful.  I guess we’re supposed to assume that Fergus & Ian have done this before and have worked out a good-cop / bad-cop routine with the younger of the two pushing for the hard bargain instead of the “foreign” one.

Jamie sends Fergus out to look for Sir Percival’s man – the man with the blind eye – to see if he can intercept him before he gets to Sir Percival.  Did Jamie just send Fergus off to kill a man?  If so, how do we feel about that?

Edited November 2, 2017 by WatchrTina

[AheadofStraight]

Did anyone else marvel at Ian's staying power during his first sexual encounter? *cough*

[Clawdette]

Maybe we're supposed to think he's the Gendry (Game of Thrones reference) of Outlander. . .

ETA:  Oh, my goodness!  I mis-thought!  Of course, it's Pod to whom I should be referring!

Edited October 29, 2017 by Clawdette

[melody16]

I understand that Claire was pretty rigid this episode but it was Jamie who seemed is a wildly out of character. Blatantly lying to Ian senior because he thinks arrogantly he can keep Young Ian safe, thinking Claire would live with him in a brothel, and acting so disgusting to Claire over the Brianna bikini pictures. He was awful. I love Sam's portrayal of Jamie because he is good at showing Jamie's innate kindness but that was lost this episode. I understand that he lied to Ian senior in the book but it was under different circumstances and seemed much less callous. Claire was totally right and was right to be harsh with him. How could Jamie possibly think it was a good idea to let Ian and Jenny think skmething terrible happened to their son rather than tell the truth? Also I understand Jamie's reaction to the bikini pictures but his dialogue was just over the top and wildly disrespectful to Claire who he called a wonderful mother just a few hours before. I also hate how they keep saying Claire left him. She didn't leave him, Jamie made her go. Sam and Cait still have loads and loads of chemistry in my mind (esp in the scene where they fought) but I hope all this angst will pay off next week.

[Petunia846]

I 100% believe Claire was so adamant about healing the excise guy because she was in shock and it was a coping mechanism.

I 100% don't believe Fergus acts like a 30 year old, although I guess with the weird way his life has gone maybe he's got some issues.

[AheadofStraight]

19 minutes ago, melody16 said:

I understand that Claire was pretty rigid this episode but it was Jamie who seemed is a wildly out of character. Blatantly lying to Ian senior because he thinks arrogantly he can keep Young Ian safe, thinking Claire would live with him in a brothel, and acting so disgusting to Claire over the Brianna bikini pictures. He was awful. I love Sam's portrayal of Jamie because he is good at showing Jamie's innate kindness but that was lost this episode. I understand that he lied to Ian senior in the book but it was under different circumstances and seemed much less callous. Claire was totally right and was right to be harsh with him. How could Jamie possibly think it was a good idea to let Ian and Jenny think skmething terrible happened to their son rather than tell the truth? Also I understand Jamie's reaction to the bikini pictures but his dialogue was just over the top and wildly disrespectful to Claire who he called a wonderful mother just a few hours before. I also hate how they keep saying Claire left him. She didn't leave him, Jamie made her go. Sam and Cait still have loads and loads of chemistry in my mind (esp in the scene where they fought) but I hope all this angst will pay off next week.

Hmmmm now I'm wondering if this is the episode Diana was referring to when she said we'd be seeing someone act completely out of character...

[melody16]

Perhaps you're right, aheadofstraight. I love Jamie in the show (more than bookJamie actually) but I almost hated him this episode. He also didn't ask claire if she was alright  or act at all comforting after she was attacked. I viewed Claire's actions this episode as her way of dealing with trauma so she didn't bother me as much. She was living a half life for the past 20 years and being a surgeon was her one true way of being where she felt the most comfortable and confident, so of course she would resort to surgeon-mode after being attacked. 

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

 

WTH is Fergus talking about when he says that there were rumors that “Milady took some lives as well”?  Claire stabbed her would-be-rapist in episode 108 but it seems unlikely that that story would have followed her to Paris where Fergus would have heard it.  I suppose Murtagh could have told him but that seems unlikely for the taciturn Murtagh.  I suppose we can imagine that there were some on that rent-collecting trip who know about Claire killing her would-be-rapist and the story has been told and retold (and perhaps embellished in the telling) and made its way to Lallybroch. Other than that, TVClaire has only ever participated in one other killing – the aid she gave to Jamie in killing Dougal.  No one but Jamie knows that and he would never tell.  So what the hell is Fergus talking about?  Hmmmm. She did give Colum poison so he could end his own suffering.  Dougal was pretty upset about that.  Are we supposed to think that Dougal accused her of that out loud at some point during the brief interval between Colum’s death and his own and some of the men of Lallybroch heard it and carried the tale back to Lallybroch with them?  That’s the best fan-wank I can come up with.

The bit in Paris with the Compte in the Star Chamber?  

 

1 hour ago, AheadofStraight said:

Did anyone else marvel at Ian's staying power during his first sexual encounter? *cough*

Yes! Ha!  I had that very thought.  They wouldn't have had time to get even slightly winded.

[WatchrTina]

22 minutes ago, toolazy said:

The bit in Paris with the Compte in the Star Chamber?  

Hmmmmm.  I can't imagine Claire ever telling anyone but Jamie what happened there so how would anyone back in England know about that?  

That line by Fergus  -- saying that Milady is known a s healer of great skill but is also known to have taken some lives was a VERY specific line.  I have to believe that the writers put it in for a plot-related reason.  I'm guessing we're going to get the answer next episode.  I'll lay money that Laoghaire is the one who throws it in Claire's face as a accusation.  

Oooooh, I've just had a thought -- maybe THAT's where Fergus heard it -- maybe Laoghaire's has been talking shit about Claire for years.  Ian senior said he and Jenny mourned her for years.  Maybe Laoghaire has been nursing a smoldering resentment toward Claire for years (especially after her marriage to Jamie proved to be such a failure that Jamie moved to Edinburgh rather than abide with her.)  Maybe the person she's been claiming was a  victim of Claire's is Geillis.  She could have twisted the tale so that the real witch (Claire) got away by throwing the falsely accused witch (Geillis) under the bus.  Anyone who was there would know that wasn't true but after 20 years and the clearances, how many people are left who could call her out as a liar?  This is pure speculation now so I'll stop.  Can't wait for the next ep.

Edited October 29, 2017 by WatchrTina

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Hmmmmm.  I can't imagine Claire ever telling anyone but Jamie what happened there so how would anyone back in England know about that?  

That line by Fergus  -- saying that Milady is known a s healer of great skill but is also known to have taken some lives was a VERY specific line.  I have to believe that the writers put it in for a plot-related reason.

There were a lot of false rumors floating around about Claire. Some thought she was more witch than healer and that's how she ended up in the Star Chamber to begin with. Fergus was a young and impressionable kid, so maybe he heard some things floating around when they were in France?