S09.E04: Grandpa Jack

[scrb]

They needed to give Elijah more scenes.

Maybe bring him back in other episodes.

[janie jones]

On 10/20/2017 at 2:19 PM, william0102 said:

 I thought he looked pretty uncomfortable when he first showed up at the apartment and put that down to whatever happened to drive the wedge between him and Jack. But there was something Elliot said as he was leaving or right before he left that made me think he was ashamed of the fact they were taking Skip to the conversion camp. 

Granted I could have interpreted that last bit wrong, and I had to assume a lot of things since the episode went over way too much in too short of a time. Which was the same problem with the Leo and Grace subplot.

He had one line that was like, "I drank the Kool-Aid and no longer separate church and state."  I don't necessarily think there's anything to be read into with a line like that (I think they were just trying to make a joke), but I also didn't think that's something that someone who had actually drunk the Kool-Aid would say.

[MizStaken]

Well they did name the poor child Skip, what were they expecting for him to be? 

I am glad that I’m not the only one that remembered that Elliot had a gay mother too. 

And I am trying to figure out why they keep putting DM into outfits that aren’t flattering to her shape. 

And I was totally baffled by the Grace/Karen storyline. All I got out of that was that they named their vaginas.

[film noire]

On 10/20/2017 at 0:47 PM, thejuicer said:

Eric McCormack is just so gorgeous and he plays Will so perfectly.

He's on fire in this reboot - his timing, delivery, physicality, etc are all fantastic (and without the mania he could sometimes fall into -- there's no wasted energy this time around). 

Edited October 22, 2017 by film noire

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, MizStaken said:

And I am trying to figure out why they keep putting DM into outfits that aren’t flattering to her shape. 

That skirt they had her in is giving me nightmares! 

 

9 hours ago, film noire said:

He's on fire in this reboot - his timing, delivery, physicality, etc are all fantastic (and without the mania he could sometimes fall into -- there's no wasted energy this time around). 

He really is perfect this time around. Not that he was ever the weakest, I have always loved him on the show, but he's really even better now. His "oh you must" was just perfection. 

[MyAimIsTrue]

Oh how I love Anthony Ramos even though I miss his long "Hamilton" hair.  Perhaps he can sing in every episode?

[sinkwriter]

Re: the podcast comment that Debra Messing can't sing... in Debra's defense, if you listen to her sing "Midnight Train to Georgia" in the original series episode where she and Will try to befriend Sandra Bernhardt, I always thought she did a good job with that one, and  (when she starts to really get into it) that it showed she has some semi-decent singing chops underneath the fooling around she does when she's intentionally sounding awful. Her doing that song is my favorite Grace singing moment from the original. Plus, it always cracks me up when she starts in on the "I got to go! I got to go!" LOL.

I LOVED the moment when Jack takes his grandson's face in his hands and tells him that he is exactly who he should be. That made me tear up big time. (And in a way, I felt like Sean broke character for a split second, pulling out of the wacky Jack routine and being completely heartfelt and honest and very real in the moment of giving that kid that message. It was really beautiful, and every kid deserves to hear that message.)

Edited October 22, 2017 by sinkwriter

[DXD526]

That conversion camp made me simultaneously angry, depressed and nauseous. Not a good feeling. It was definitely right out of "But I'm A Cheerleader", right down to the over-stressing of gender roles. I felt so bad for those poor kids.

Good to see Elliot again, even if his turnaround at the end was kind of abrupt and hard to believe. Skip reminded me a bit of the kid in "A Little Christmas Queer", an all-time favorite episode. It was weird that Bonnie wasn't mentioned, though. 

[Miss Dee]

I absolutely loved Jack giving that speech to Skip. I feel like they're trying to grow Jack a little, and honestly I'm all for it.

And after complaining about hinting at a romantic future for Will and Jack two episodes ago: after watching how adorable they were together this episode, seeing them cuddle on the couch broke me. Now... I kinda ship it. *hangs head in shame*

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:05 PM, giovannif7 said:

When they mentioned that Elliot had moved to Texas and married, I got my hopes up that his new father-in-law would be Will's former client Harlan - and, by extension, Elliot's wife would be the girl that Will and Grace took Trick-Or-Treat-ing in the building all those years ago. Alas, it was not meant to be.

That would have been so clever! Now I wish that had happened. Still, whatever the storyline, I was happy to see Michael Angarano again and hope he returns in future episodes, and maybe we see a better homelife for Jack's grandson over time throughout the revival.

Like everyone else, I couldn't help but think of the NPH episode. Jack's grandson reminded me so much of the kid who played Will's nephew, too. Still, I found it funny anyway. My favorite part was Andrew Rannells getting electrocuted mid-kiss by Jane Lynch. I wouldn't mind if he returned to hook up with Will; he looked very handsome here.

[Shaynaa]

The Grace and Karen subplot was a horribly offensive mess.  I watched the original series but drifted away in later seasons.  I vaguely recall Karen had an adversarial relationship with Rosario.  Mocking someone for being Puerto Rican isn't funny and I seriously can't believe the writers thought it was.  Considering the show's long history of lily whiteness and this is how they treat PoC?  I also can't believe that in 2017, we are using sexual harassment as a joke.  It doesn't matter if a woman does it.  I listened to the podcast and they thought some stuff may have been edited out.  Even without the Weinstein stories, this was still seriously screwed up.  I suspect the only time we are going to see Tony is when his bosses are harassing him for laughs.  How progressive.

As soon as the kid said his parents were taking him to a camp, I figured it was to "straighten" him out,  I actually liked that whole story even if all of these adults wandering into a kids camp and not having the cops called on them was implausible.  Loved all the scenes between Jack and Skip.

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, Shaynaa said:

The Grace and Karen subplot was a horribly offensive mess.  I watched the original series but drifted away in later seasons.  I vaguely recall Karen had an adversarial relationship with Rosario.  Mocking someone for being Puerto Rican isn't funny and I seriously can't believe the writers thought it was.  Considering the show's long history of lily whiteness and this is how they treat PoC?  I also can't believe that in 2017, we are using sexual harassment as a joke.  It doesn't matter if a woman does it.  I listened to the podcast and they thought some stuff may have been edited out.  Even without the Weinstein stories, this was still seriously screwed up.  I suspect the only time we are going to see Tony is when his bosses are harassing him for laughs.  How progressive.

What's especially disappointing about that is that while that would be expected behavior from a sociopathic narcissist like Karen, Grace should definitely know better.

[Gothish520]

9 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

What's especially disappointing about that is that while that would be expected behavior from a sociopathic narcissist like Karen, Grace should definitely know better.

Yes but the point was that she DID know better, but it has been so long since she has had a romantic relationship...plus, she did not even touch Tony and he barely touched her.

I'm surprised at how morally outraged everyone is over this. It's certainly in keeping with the tone of the show over the years. Harvey Weinstein's disgusting behavior doesn't mean that no one can ever flirt with anyone again.Yeesh.

[Mabinogia]

I was bothered by the Grace/Karen stuff because I realized that while I found it moderately funny when Karen was doing the harassing, when it was Grace it just came off as pathetic and uncomfortable to watch. Of course, I've always found Grace fairly pathetic and uncomfortable to watch (when she's in pathetic mode) so there is that. Mostly I'm offended by it in the sense that it took away from the main story with Jack's grandson, which I think could have used a few extra minutes to really flesh out because it was a far more interesting, and thoughtful storyline. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Did she even come up during the episode?  I didn't recall hearing her mentioned at all, which was odd since you'd think Elliot's issues would also have to do with her. 

No, there was no mention of Elliot's mother. In fact, during her one appearance on the show, she confessed to Jack she had never figured out how to tell Elliot she was a lesbian. And there was never any follow-up to that either - never any acknowledgment from Elliot that he knew, and we never saw Bonnie again either. 

I can easily see Elliot trying to "conform" to his new wife though, because that's exactly what he tried to do in order to be part of Jack's life. Remember the time he tried out for cheerleading?

I get that Jack wasn't invited to his wedding and why, but it seems like Elliot always had to do the work to establish and maintain any kind of relationship with Jack, and that Jack never made any effort to have Elliot be part of his life. 

[Gothish520]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I was bothered by the Grace/Karen stuff because I realized that while I found it moderately funny when Karen was doing the harassing, when it was Grace it just came off as pathetic and uncomfortable to watch. Of course, I've always found Grace fairly pathetic and uncomfortable to watch (when she's in pathetic mode) so there is that. Mostly I'm offended by it in the sense that it took away from the main story with Jack's grandson, which I think could have used a few extra minutes to really flesh out because it was a far more interesting, and thoughtful storyline. 

In no way was Grace's behavior anything close to harassment. Tony physically touched HER - in fact, there is an argument to be made that he was flirting with her even more than she was flirting with him.

[festivus]

15 hours ago, iMonrey said:

No, there was no mention of Elliot's mother. In fact, during her one appearance on the show, she confessed to Jack she had never figured out how to tell Elliot she was a lesbian. And there was never any follow-up to that either - never any acknowledgment from Elliot that he knew, and we never saw Bonnie again either. 

Dang, you have a better memory than me. I thought he knew. Elliot's actions make a bit more sense to me now. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV podcast on the episode!

 

Can I Call You Grandpa?

'Oh my god, you have to.' - Will.

[SparklesBitch]

On 10/19/2017 at 10:00 PM, TheOtherOne said:

Elliot, with two gay parents, turning out to be the kind of person who would send his kid to conversion therapy, is one of the most depressing things I've seen on TV in a while.

Same. 

On 10/19/2017 at 11:32 PM, AEMom said:

The stuff with Grace and Karen and the employee was rather distasteful,  especially in light of the recent news, but I did like the scenes of just the two of them together. 

I wasn't as offended by it as other people were, but I just didn't really find it all that funny. I DID laugh out loud at the "whenever she does that [referring to the paper towel toss], I make her donate $1K to hurricane relief" and "worth every peso!"

However, I enjoyed having just Karen and Grace alone in some scenes too.

 

On 10/20/2017 at 4:29 AM, Samcd said:

So am I the only one here that saw " But I'm a cheerleader?"  it was a movie from around 1999 in the movie the lead character was sent to a camp very much like this one . it's a funny movie in the movie the gay gone straight male leader was played by RuPaul.  

You're not the only one! I love that movie! 

 

On 10/22/2017 at 1:25 AM, film noire said:

He's on fire in this reboot - his timing, delivery, physicality, etc are all fantastic (and without the mania he could sometimes fall into -- there's no wasted energy this time around). 

He's killing it! And he's still impossibly gorgeous. I've always had a crush on Will (which is weird, because hello, lesbian) and Eric McCormack is my favorite part of this reboot. He has slipped right back into this without a hitch. 

 

On 10/22/2017 at 11:22 PM, Miss Dee said:

I absolutely loved Jack giving that speech to Skip. I feel like they're trying to grow Jack a little, and honestly I'm all for it.

And after complaining about hinting at a romantic future for Will and Jack two episodes ago: after watching how adorable they were together this episode, seeing them cuddle on the couch broke me. Now... I kinda ship it. *hangs head in shame*

That speech was the best. Every kid deserves to hear that, and I'm also all for any and all attempts to grow Jack. Sean Hayes totally knocked that scene out of the park. 

As for Will/Jack, I'm so glad I'm not the only one!! I don't think I'm quite there when it comes to shipping them, yet, but I'm enjoying their closeness. I don't know if it's just been a long time since I've seen the older episodes or what, but I feel like maybe there's more sweetness to their friendship now than there once was. I don't know, but they're definitely tripping my "awww!" button. That being said, all the points I've read on this board so far that have been made against a Will/Jack relationship are spot-on.....so I'm conflicted. 

Other thoughts about this episode: 

- Jane Lynch!! Yay! 

- Pajama party pose....spot on (at least in my circles) and hilarious 

- "Oh my god, you have to!" Awesome.

- Jack's reaction to getting to take Skip to his first Broadway show was perfect, and also his little curtsy when Elliot left the apartment the first time in the episode. So wonderfully Jack. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by SparklesBitch
more thoughts added

[Florinaldo]

On 20/10/2017 at 6:18 PM, Bruinsfan said:

The specific markers may have been overly stereotypical, but in my experience overdramatic childhood flamboyance in boys is a nearly infallible indicator of future gayness.

My experience is different and does not point to such a hard-and-fast rule. Not that Skip's behaviour was that flamboyant anyway, except perhaps by the standards of the stock intolerant Texans (another stereotype) his parents were portrayed to be. It dit however conform to the cultural preconceptions of gay men in TV-land, or at least TV from another era.

On 21/10/2017 at 11:31 AM, Jillybean said:

in the original series, Jack was known for using three-named women as exclamations. "Sarah Jessica Parker!" "Jennifer Love Hewitt!" etc. So it was a fun callback.

A "classic" stereotype is still a cliché.

On 21/10/2017 at 4:09 PM, Ely said:

They also like to play with clichés so I'm pretty sure that was to be seen as ironic.

Coming so soon after that sanctimonious speech Will gave to his young conquest regarding all that the older generation did for the cause, which I think was the show giving itself a self-serving pat on the back by association, I cannot give the production credit for irony or any other manifestation of subtle or refined wit. But the season is still young.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Florinaldo

[kmcarte]

There were some really funny lines tonight. I liked Jack's (paraphrased) "I don't belong in Texas, because I can't tell a woman what to do with her fetus". Skip was adorable.

I feel like of all the cast members Debra Messing still hasn't quite hit her stride.

Agreed about messing. Weakest in the bunch. Karen and Will are the strongest IMO.

[kmcarte]

The only thing I'm calling shenanagins on is the fact there was a conversion camp in driving distance. I'm pretty sure that those places are banned by law in the state of New York.

absurd that they would have had to leave TEXAS (of all places!) to find one at all, esp to come all the way to new york.

[Dandesun]

When Elliot came back at the end I actually said "I'd believe you were morally against homosexuality a lot more if you didn't look like Jake Gyllenhall in Brokeback Mountain."

My sister almost spit out her wine.

But the point remains.

That being said, I'm glad that Elliot and Jack made an in-road and I really loved Jack telling Skip that he had to learn to be strong but he would be there for him in any way that he could.

[kmcarte]

I was really upset by Elliot becoming a dad who would do that to his child, but I was very happy to see Michael Anganaro back. He's adorable. It was really sad that he and Jack were estranged, but...I've seen people I would never have imagined could be swayed in their beliefs by spouses. Elliot was clearly very young when he met his wife....people will do stupid fucking things for love. I've seen a liberal hippie mom marry a staunch ex militiary conservative and now she listens to Limbaugh and Fox News and watches those awful Hilary/Obama watching movies, and voted for Trump. I've seen stylish, makeup and clothes loving young girls who dated Muslim boys and eschewed all the glittery trappings they'd loved before...until the second they broke up with those guys and dropped the religion. (my point is not that the religion is stupid, but that changing drastically for romantic partners just to keep them is) Etc etc.  The idea that Elliot would send his kid to that awful place was deeply sad. But at least he came around at the end. I hope he breaks up with his annoying bigot wife and moves back to NYC with Skip.

I also need Andrew Rannells to become Will's new boyfriend, pronto.

Given the country's current state of affairs, I think it would be really nice to see her make a slow turn around instead. It'd be nice to see someone like that get better, instead of ditched and never heard from again. Esp if she did it for her son.

[kmcarte]

  On 10/20/2017 at 0:40 AM, memememe76 said:

Larry David can go screw himself. I loved the episode.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  I prefer my comedy with no lessons.  The episode had some fun mostly courtesy of Jack.  The Grace/Karen segments were cringeworthy, though.

The kid who played the grandson wasn't a great actor.  He kept glancing off to the side, almost as if he were looking for the teleprompter.

if it had just been a little less overdone and anvilicious....

[kmcarte]

The introduction of Skip makes me wonder about Karen.  I know that Jack, Will and Grace are all single again and did not have children with their exes - but what about Karen? Did I miss a mention of the always off-screen Stan and his kids? Did she divorce him, or did he die? Are those stepkids a part of her life?

they did a catch up blip in the first episode that mentioned that they were still together

[QueBueno]

Late to posting.  I’m way behind and doing some binge watching today.  I guess one of the reasons I haven’t kept up with the episodes is that it seems to have lost its old magic.  The jokes seem forced.  But I still have a lot of affection for the show, so for now I’m sticking with it.  But this episode may be the one that drove me away.

People just love to rag on Texas, don’t they.  I know there are many things here that lend themselves to parody, even ridicule.  Yes, we have fundamentalists and homophobes.  Many people like hunting and fishing.  I know people like this.  I also know many blue voters and people who never owned a gun.  Texas is a wonderful place to live with (mostly) lovely people.  When I see plotlines or read remarks talking about how Texans are backwards rednecks, I always roll my eyes and move on.  But this episode basically said that living in Texas turned Elliot into a homophobe.  I find it unlikely he would have even married one given his upbringing.  And if homophobia was so strong here, they would have found a conversion camp right here rather than all the way in New York.  (Yes, I know it’s just a plot line, conversion camps are illegal in NY.)  It was very heavyhanded and it just gets tiresome.