S03.E06: A. Malcolm

[cam3150]

18 minutes ago, taanja said:

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

I re-watched last night. I am not spoiled. I will say that because I speculate that Jamie is married. He is a man of his time and men at that time married.because it was expected of them. And it's been 20 years since Claire went away.  maybe he even has more children than that Willie boy? Not sure but he seemed sketch when he was talking to Fergus. (and mentioned Ned Gowen (sp?)-- which 20 years later wouldn't he be like-- dead? or really old?) I found it odd that Claire doesn't even suspect that he might be married. Or even ask. It's been 20 freakin' years! Life goes on!

 

I think you may be right because he also mentioned that this Ned would have to tell him what the law is.  It seems like it can only be the law regarding what happens to your current wife when your presumed dead wife suddenly comes back. 

[ganesh]

21 minutes ago, taanja said:

And why does everyone assume that Claire is about to be raped at the end? Dude looked sinister for sure but he also seemed to have a mission and rape didn't seem to be it.

He may have not wanted to rape Claire, but he said he was looking for whatever and for Claire to get on the bed and spread her legs. With Claire yelling at him to get out, I'd say it's a fair conclusion to draw with the scene ending shortly after that. 

21 minutes ago, taanja said:

I had no problem with Claire heading downstairs to have breakfast with the "ladies" Why not?

Within the context of the show, Claire has demonstrated a severe lack of situational awareness that's gotten her into trouble a lot of times, including one that lead to the death of Gellis, who would have been a tremendous ally given the 20 extra years of history she had on Claire at the time. Sure, wander around the brothel in your shift, but people are probably going to assume you work there. It's not that big of a deal per se. The madam found her and asked her to go back to her room. But if some rough dude is in your room when you get back and assumes you're a prostitute, the situation can potentially turn dire. Women were essentially property in 1768 still. That's not Claire's fault, but you still need to be cognizant of your reality. 

[taanja]

1 hour ago, cam3150 said:

I think you may be right because he also mentioned that this Ned would have to tell him what the law is.  It seems like it can only be the law regarding what happens to your current wife when your presumed dead wife suddenly comes back. 

That is exactly how it came across to me. I remember Ned being a lawyer of sorts? Right? I am sure Jamie never expected Claire to come back so he probs married. Seems logical. But he lives at the print shop and the brothel .. so..?? his wife must live...somewhere? maybe he has a house in town? and he didn't want to bring Claire back there. Cuz the whole brothel thing seemed sketch as well.

[taanja]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

He may have not wanted to rape Claire, but he said he was looking for whatever and for Claire to get on the bed and spread her legs. With Claire yelling at him to get out, I'd say it's a fair conclusion to draw with the scene ending shortly after that. 

Within the context of the show, Claire has demonstrated a severe lack of situational awareness that's gotten her into trouble a lot of times, including one that lead to the death of Gellis, who would have been a tremendous ally given the 20 extra years of history she had on Claire at the time. Sure, wander around the brothel in your shift, but people are probably going to assume you work there. It's not that big of a deal per se. The madam found her and asked her to go back to her room. But if some rough dude is in your room when you get back and assumes you're a prostitute, the situation can potentially turn dire. Women were essentially property in 1768 still. That's not Claire's fault, but you still need to be cognizant of your reality. 

I don't know? I watched that ending and rape just seemed like the last thing that dude was about. I mean sure. He assumed she was a prostitute. And maybe when he's done doing what he went there to do he'll make time for the "whore" but the scene played less sinister to me than others that's all. Dude had an ulterior motive and he was like-- yeah yeah -- you go lay on the bed like a good whore and when I find the ledger  I'll get back to you.

Besides. Claire's MO is to get herself into trouble. To behave like a 20th century woman in the 18th century.  but I will put forth the proposition that if she didn't do the things she does--- the story/show would be over long before now.

[Auj]

I thought that the whole thing of Clare and Jamie going over their histories over dinner and then hoping right into bed afterwards was a bit vague. Oh, and how much history was disclosed? Did Clare ask about Jenny and Ian? Did Clare tell Jamie about the false half life she lived for 20 years with Frank? Did she mention to Jamie about the charade she and Frank tried to put on for the sake of their daughter? Did Jamie tell Clare about Murtagh still being alive? Did he tell C about Rupert’s execution?   I think Jamie mislead Clare into thinking that the two of them are still married. And I am guessing a little thing like being married to you-know-who just may have slipped his mind. UGH!

I do not have a problem with Clare going down to have some breakfast with the working women. After all, Jamie lives there and is on good terms with the household. Why shouldn’t Clare be friendly? They were certainly being kind to her even though the Madame was an ice cube.

I must admit to personally preferring the previous Season 3 episodes. I am interested in the Highlanders history of Scotland, so those parts are my favorite.

Anyway, so much for my opinion.  I personally would enjoy some truth telling in future episodes.

[Hyla]

I thought it was a good episode up until the last scene.

I watched it through twice and it wasn't until the second viewing I realized the woman retying Jamie's neck scarf in the opening scene was the madame from the brothel. It was a very domestic scene, with some cordial flirtation. She seemed very into him and not at all happy when he returned that evening with a surprise wife to untie that same necktie for him.

The reset back before Claire's arrival and Jamie's walk through the streets with the stone buildings and carriages and passers-by was so well done! And the call-back to the sign with Jamie fussing over a smudge was smile-inducing and showed after years of prison this was someone proud of the business he'd built.

The first time watching I thought Claire was a bit presumptuous to drop in so suddenly after 20 years of no contact and first not turn away when he asked her to and then claim they were still married when she couldn't possibly know anything about his life circumstances. (The viewers of course know he's prayed for her and kept her in his heart throughout all his time in the cave, and at Ardsmuir prison, and at Helwater, and kept true to her to the point where he had to be blackmailed into visiting another woman's bed.)

The second time through I though she should have been more presumptuous. I get they were going for awkward, but when Jamie was sitting up off the floor she was hesitant to even touch him and he was too distracted by the very unimportant spilled drink. I thought they should have been more joyful, but maybe it's more realistic they have things they need to work out first.

The line that worked best for me because of the delivery was Jamie's telling Claire he had seen her many times but in all of those times she'd never touched him. I was really sold on the longing and years of pain of missing her with just that moment.

That emphasis on touch made me feel a little better about the photograph scene, which I found so disappointing first time through, like so many other viewers.  I wanted him to be amazed by the photos and say things like she has my hair or my mother's eyes or want to know anything at all about her! Claire was beside herself excited to have those photos to show him and proud of who she had accomplished raising in all those years they had sacrificed apart. And he just shut her down cold, leaving her to wonder if it was a mistake to include the swim suit picture. Then he jumps right to telling her about HIS son who has nothing to do with Claire and could have been mentioned in a confession much later on.

The second time through I thought the photos were too overwhelming for an 18th century person and he couldn't get his mind around seeing them. And that he was covering for feeling no connection at all to this stranger baby progressing to adulthood without him. He had a tangible connection to Faith who he had felt growing in Claire, and Willy he'd been able to touch and wrestle with and have a relationship with. I think Claire understood Brianna wasn't real to him which was why she agreed with his emphatic Mine! and indulged his enthusiasm about how amazing his son was. (I hope Lord John and Isobel keep him updated - I assume they commissioned the portrait for him.)

Jamie was believably an old duffer to me what with the glasses and the raspy way he said now tell me about my daughter and seemed to move around more deliberately. Claire with her hair back to natural seemed as young as when they'd last been together. 

I loved that Jamie didn't want to let Claire out of his sight and wanted her to go everywhere with him. And the reunion hug with Fergus! And her meeting young Ian who may have really thought she lived in a fairy doon.

The best line of the episode was Jamie's asking Claire to promise not to leave the premises. I laughed out loud because she would of course do just that, first opportunity. Thwarting convention and doing her own thing are second nature to Claire. But, she's acting out of time and that always makes things difficult for everyone.

That last scene looked ominous with the burglar blocking the door and Claire choosing to engage when she's not likely to intimidate him. It is way too early into the reunion to do this to them, but I don't trust the show to not go through with yet another attack. There must be drama after all! 

As long as Jamie, or the madame, or the maid bringing up breakfast interrupt that attack I'll be looking forward to next week to find out Jamie's secrets and how he and Claire are going to negotiate a relationship now that they are different people with different expectations.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Hyla
Added a thought

[Auj]

Last night I was reading Sam Heughan’s twitter response to the photographs scene others here had complained about. I found it interesting and perhaps others will as well.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 10/24/2017 at 4:08 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I can't wait to hear who they were referring to when someone asked Jamie, "What about....?" and he said it didn't matter because Claire was back.

Who?  Or what?  Maybe I'm just dense (don't answer that! ;) )  but I just figured it had something to do with his smuggling business.  

18 hours ago, taanja said:

That is exactly how it came across to me. I remember Ned being a lawyer of sorts? Right? I am sure Jamie never expected Claire to come back so he probs married. Seems logical. But he lives at the print shop and the brothel .. so..?? his wife must live...somewhere? maybe he has a house in town? and he didn't want to bring Claire back there. Cuz the whole brothel thing seemed sketch as well.

Yes, Ned is a lawyer.  The fact that he's living at the brothel and/or sleeping at the printshop is why I didn't think it had to with a 'who'.  I mean, in that whole 'shared histories' part over dinner, wouldn't he have told her if he was married?  He did tell her about the son he had and that he wasn't married to the mother.  

I also didn't realize how much I didn't miss the Claire voice-overs until the dinner scene.  It just seemed really jarring to me.  

[TV Anonymous]

A year late, waiting for the show to go on Netflix, just to comment on this.

It is a bit unfortunate that they show frontal nudity in this episode as even after 20 years, and bearing and rearing a child, Claire's tits are still as perky as in their first night. I mean, the production can do make-up to make faces look older but I guess it is more difficult to manipulate 'that area'. As well, her tummy, waist and hips do not show any sagging or stretch mark at all, just as they were supposedly 20+ years ago.

[kwnyc]

Quote

I was surprised - and pleased - that Jamie told Claire about Willie.  Nice that he's being so upfront with her.  

I thought that showed how much he had missed her and trusted her. She was the ONLY person he has ever told about Willie. She would understand. He cannot tell anyone about Willie in his own time because it could have disastrous consequences for both of them. But that showed instantly that they still have an instinctive trust of each other. (Though at some point I'm sure Older Willie Who Looks A Lot Like Jamie will turn up.)

And while I'm glad they didn't show it, it must have been a bit of a challenge for Claire to get from the stones in the Highlands down to Edinburgh. Fortunately, she had the "antique" coins, I just looked it up, and it is 156 miles from Inverness to Edinburgh, so it must have been a journey (by carriage, I would guess) of several days. Inverness was the closest town to the stones, wasn't it? 

And I think Claire rather enjoyed having breakfast with the girls. :-)

[Blakeston]

Claire, you brought back a bikini photo of Brianna? Really? You didn't think that might be a bit shocking for a man of Jamie's era? It would be like a man nowadays being shown a photo of his teenage daughter buck naked and spread-eagled.

Anyway, I get the convenience of letting the actors look like their usual selves. But I'm honestly shocked to hear comments saying that it's common for people to look the same after 20 years. I mean, maybe someone like Paul Rudd - but he's one in a million, and he has access to modern-day products and treatments.

And I absolutely cannot accept a man in his late 40s, in the 1700s, having chiseled abs. It's all a huge distraction for me. I really think they should have at least given Jamie a substantial amount of gray hair, like they did with Claire in the Boston scenes.

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 7:02 AM, TV Anonymous said:

It is a bit unfortunate that they show frontal nudity in this episode as even after 20 years, and bearing and rearing a child, Claire's tits are still as perky as in their first night. I mean, the production can do make-up to make faces look older but I guess it is more difficult to manipulate 'that area'. As well, her tummy, waist and hips do not show any sagging or stretch mark at all, just as they were supposedly 20+ years ago.

Like you I watch on Netflix and we are really behind everyone else.

I agree with everything you said. I'm not sure how old Claire is but I believe she's pushing if not over 50 and unfortunately even if you don't have children gravity will come visit women's boobs as we age. But I think what really took me out of this episode is Claire's hair, in all of the flashbacks even when she gets in the taxi and is ready to step out of it her hair is short and straight but once she returns to the past it's longer and curly. Claire and Jamie looked exactly the same as when they separated 20 years ago, just because Jamie puts glasses on doesn't make him look older. Hell, the new Fergus looks almost the same age as Claire and Jamie, lol. 

I wish we would've saw Claire go through the stones and how far away are the stones from where Jamie is? Did she change clothes at the stones before going through?

I really liked season 1 that focused more on the Scottish way of life, season 2 and now 3 seems more like a soap opera.

I'm not a fan of Claire because she doesn't listen and speaks out and gets herself and others into trouble.

 What is with the author of these books and rape? I can live without nudity and sex in shows/movies I personally don't find those scenes necessary but all the rape, near rape in this show is so overboard.

 

[parrotfeathers]

2 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I really liked season 1 that focused more on the Scottish way of life, season 2 and now 3 seems more like a soap opera.

Same with me.  I actually researched this period in time and was amazed what I did not know.

[chaifan]

Question on the timeline...  Claire is preparing to leave right around Christmas.  But when she gets back to 1700's Scotland, it certainly isn't winter - looks more like late fall or early spring.  Do the stones also change up the calendar months/days (not just the year)?

Also, why would Jamie live in a brothel, when he has a very large printshop all to himself?  Wouldn't it make more sense for him to just have a small living space there? 

Other than those quirks, I liked the reunion.  Loved the new Fergus, too.

[toolazy]

On 12/26/2019 at 9:37 AM, chaifan said:

Question on the timeline...  Claire is preparing to leave right around Christmas.  But when she gets back to 1700's Scotland, it certainly isn't winter - looks more like late fall or early spring.  Do the stones also change up the calendar months/days (not just the year)?

Also, why would Jamie live in a brothel, when he has a very large printshop all to himself?  Wouldn't it make more sense for him to just have a small living space there? 

Other than those quirks, I liked the reunion.  Loved the new Fergus, too.

I'm not sure if this is made clear in the show, but I know that it's at least mentioned.  He's trying to separate his identities.  He doesn't want people to know Jamie Fraser, Smuggler is the same person as Alexander Malcolm, Printer and Purveyor of Treasonous Documents.

And he does have living space in the print shop. 

[Cdh20]

On 12/26/2019 at 10:37 AM, chaifan said:

Question on the timeline...  Claire is preparing to leave right around Christmas.  But when she gets back to 1700's Scotland, it certainly isn't winter - looks more like late fall or early spring.  Do the stones also change up the calendar months/days (not just the year)?

Also, why would Jamie live in a brothel, when he has a very large printshop all to himself?  Wouldn't it make more sense for him to just have a small living space there? 

Other than those quirks, I liked the reunion.  Loved the new Fergus, too.

The filming seasons &  weather were not always in sync with the timeline, so we are supposed to overlook that inconsistency!

[chaifan]

17 hours ago, toolazy said:

I'm not sure if this is made clear in the show, but I know that it's at least mentioned.  He's trying to separate his identities.  He doesn't want people to know Jamie Fraser, Smuggler is the same person as Alexander Malcolm, Printer and Purveyor of Treasonous Documents.

And he does have living space in the print shop. 

I thought he always went by Alexander Malcolm while he was in town, whether at the print shop or brothel or wherever.  So it still doesn't make sense to me that he wouldn't just live in the print shop.  We saw a bed/cot there, but not really a full separate living space, but there was certainly space for one. 

[Cdh20]

50 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I thought he always went by Alexander Malcolm while he was in town, whether at the print shop or brothel or wherever.  So it still doesn't make sense to me that he wouldn't just live in the print shop.  We saw a bed/cot there, but not really a full separate living space, but there was certainly space for one. 

I think Young Ian is sleeping at the print shop?

[Camera One]

Oh, back to the good ol' 1700s at last, who needs a hotel when you can spend a romantic night in a brothel and get possibly physically and sexually assaulted after breakfast?

Makes me wonder if I'd rather see the tedious but non-traumatic storyline about whether Breanna is able to get her grades up.

This episode dragged a bit in the middle for me too.  They always skip through the "filling in the stories" parts, when they could potentially be the most interesting.  Did Jaime tell Claire the context of how he fathered his son?  It's unclear since she later asked if he fell in love with anyone.  

I'm not sure I like the whole smuggling and seditious pamphlets plot.  Jaime didn't see overly political in previous seasons.  Why couldn't he go back to Lallybroch?  Plus he's the one in a dangerous profession making enemies left right and center, and he's being so coy about it with Claire.

I did like the beginning showing Jaime's new daily routine, and I continue to be interested in seeing new settings and professions (in this case, work in a printshop).  The sets are awesome.  

I am glad we don't need to endure fake old-age makeup, but the concept that this is 20 years later and they look like that is seriously laughable.  That line with Jaime in particular putting on his glasses that like means he's soooooo old was unintentionally hilarious.  Was that supposed to give us Jolly Ol' Saint Nicholas vibes?

[Cdh20]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Oh, back to the good ol' 1700s at last, who needs a hotel when you can spend a romantic night in a brothel and get possibly physically and sexually assaulted after breakfast?

Makes me wonder if I'd rather see the tedious but non-traumatic storyline about whether Breanna is able to get her grades up.

This episode dragged a bit in the middle for me too.  They always skip through the "filling in the stories" parts, when they could potentially be the most interesting.  Did Jaime tell Claire the context of how he fathered his son?  It's unclear since she later asked if he fell in love with anyone.  

I'm not sure I like the whole smuggling and seditious pamphlets plot.  Jaime didn't see overly political in previous seasons.  Why couldn't he go back to Lallybroch?  Plus he's the one in a dangerous profession making enemies left right and center, and he's being so coy about it with Claire.

I did like the beginning showing Jaime's new daily routine, and I continue to be interested in seeing new settings and professions (in this case, work in a printshop).  The sets are awesome.  

I am glad we don't need to endure fake old-age makeup, but the concept that this is 20 years later and they look like that is seriously laughable.  That line with Jaime in particular putting on his glasses that like means he's soooooo old was unintentionally hilarious.  Was that supposed to give us Jolly Ol' Saint Nicholas vibes?

They only got to play their real ages for one episode each (Claire graduating med school, Jamie at Hellwater). I love that they "seem" older but still look great! 50 is not so old! 

[Anothermi]

I liked that they showed us the reunion from Jamie's view. And I liked that they showed us a certain level of uncertainty and wariness. They have lived 2 decades of life without each other. There are bound to be things about each of them that the other doesn't know nor would have imagined. (Not that they showed much of that but perhaps later?)

Things I liked:

• I did laugh at Jamie brushing off Claire become a surgeon with “you've always been that, but now you have the title.” He might be shocked at what surgeons do in the 20th century—not the rudimentary blood and guts he would be familiar with. 
• Another new character in the form of Geordie who looks like he's always smelling something sour. Goiter, you say? Wonder if Claire can fix that? (I mean that seriously. I know nothing of goiter except that it is thyroid related.) Still. I think I might like this strange fellow.
• Had another chuckle at Jamie's reaction to Brianna's name—until he understood it was his father's name made to fit a girl. 
• Then, being Jamie, he has to tell Claire that he sired a son. Not telling would be a sin of omission and he couldn't do that. I noticed, however, that he said he hadn't told anyone before her—which was true—but two other people know even though he didn't tell them. He's also kept his son's status from her and I can't believe it won't come back to bite him at some point. 

It definitely looks like Jamie is living on the edge still. Printing and distributing seditious material instead of leading armies. At least there are laws that can protect him a bit now. Apparently there is a concept “proof” that didn't exist in the highlands—at least not for the British soldiers charged with “keeping the peace” out there. But smuggling whiskey and the like? A bit more dodgy and dangerous I'll wager. And he's engaged with shady characters as well. i.e. The pompous guy in the wine cellar. 

Looks like his article—the one Roger showed Claire to prove that Jamie was still alive—didn't change the laws against distilling whiskey. Heh, heh. As if he thought it would!

But Fergus!!!!! New!Fergus. And as charming as the old Fergus. Loved that reunion. But what was with that brief exchange between him and Jamie as they head into the tavern to deal with Mr. Willoughby? This one:

Fergus: Is milady staying? - With you? 

Jamie: Oh, I dinna ken yet. Hope so. 

Fergus: What about...? 

Jamie: Aye. Aye, I havena had time to think it through. With Claire back, I'm... I'm not sure it's even a concern. I need to consult Ned Gowan, have him advise me on the law.
Seems mighty suspicious to me. Wonder if the brothel owner is the subject of this interaction? It relates to Claire being back so that is a possibility.

I'm looking forward to seeing Ned Gowan again (or hoping to see him) and also to see more of Mr. Willoughby. What's with Jamie's facility with languages? I know some people have a knack with picking up languages, but he's a whiz kid at it. And Claire too! 

It was nice that Claire and Jamie spent the time needed to fill in as much of their lives as they could in one night, but I found this part of the show dragged. I would have appreciated a voice over like they gave for Claire telling Frank about her 3 years in the past and Jamie telling Murtagh about Claire. I, personally, didn't need proof that they were still capable of long, drawn-out love making sessions. Just me? Oh well. Garçon! Table for one.

Happy to have young Ian join the known characters. Last time we saw him? His mother claimed he'd died in childbirth to keep the newest set of Redcoats from finding Jamie. And I noted—when I replayed the beginning sequence—that his name was dropped when Jamie spoke with the drunkards-come-cohorts in his back of shop living quarters. They mentioned that “young Ian” had said they could sleep there last night because they'd lost their beds at the boarding house (either from lack of payment or drunkenness I'll wager.)

And finally...

You know you are back in Scotland when there's a nasty character threatening Claire within less than a day.

 

 

 

 

 

[gingerella]

Okay, that was a lot to process... At the top I'll say I loved how they used the printing press as a means of providing our visual amuse bouche at the top of the episode, nicely done Show.

I'm not really sure how to parse this out so I'll do it similarly to The Wedding since so much of it is another mirror episode. First of all, I am glad the show didn't pick up with Jamie fainting and that we saw how he began that fateful day. Finally a day went right, aye, make that verra right indeed for our James Fraser! My initial gut reaction was 'WTF is this wench acting all touchy feely with Jamie?!' but then my rational brain told me that Jamie would not likely take up with a Madam and I thought that's what she was from the start so it wasn't a surprise when it was confirmed. In fact, we know Jamie has a history of becoming friendly with well known local madams, first Madame Elise in France, and now Madam whatshername in Edinburgh, so I wasn't shocked. That said, it still got my hackles up straight away.

Small bits I enjoyed:

I loved the small touches in this episode, like Jamie touching his shop sign with the same pride that Claire showed when she too touched his shop sign, those little call backs really provide an anchor for a story that sometimes is vexing with the time travel details and such!

The two chaps who were hiding in the back of the shop, who called Jamie MacDou - I assume they are fellow former prisoners from Ardsmuir, though I wonder why they weren't sent to the Colonies along with Murtagh (alas poor Murtagh where are ye old friend?!?) and the other prisoners? That was a bit odd. I also laughed out loud at their comment to Geordie, he of the neck goiter and faint of heart! He's a really wet blanket that one, and I'm not sure I understand if he just happens to live across from Jamie's shop and that's how he came into Jamie's employment, or if there is another connection, but I rather like his straight-as-as-arrow demeanor compared to Jamie's shady dealings.

I kept hoping that some of the papers that we saw hanging in Jamie's print shop drying were going to be the actual document that Roger found him with, but I don't think there were, were they? I need to re-watch again but I'm happy to know if someone knows definitively!

Smokey the Newfie! We FINALLY have some mention of the big black dog from the amuse bouche a few episodes back, yeah! Remove him from the Milk Carton Gang!

What is this?! It's a zipper, you just pull on the tab... AND What is a bicycle? These are the little bits I always love and appreciate because they remind us of the world that Claire comes from, and that Jamie knows nothing about. I think he'd be miserable in the 1960s.

Big bits and Important stuff:

I got full body chills when Jamie sees Claire and it was so great to see that scene from his perspective this time. The way his back straightened up when he heard that voice, and when he heard her name his eyes went so wide I thought they'd pop right out of his head! Poor guy, I cannot imagine what would be like, incredulous really, so no wonder he passed out. That scene was so overwhelming on one level, and yet they managed to inject a wee bit of humor when Jamie comes to, and is afraid he pissed himself but it's just wet ink! I loved that bit, and one of the things this show does so well is place a succinct snippet of humor in exactly the right place and at the exact right time that it's needed.

When Jamie asked Claire if he could kiss her, I mean, he's always been so carefully galant with her, never assuming anything, and while I wanted him to just kiss the hell out of her, it was very sweet and Jamie-esque to ask and then pause with "We havena done this in a verra long time...", similar to when they pause on their Wedding Night and Claire blurts out "tell me about your family!", except this time they do kiss.  I did find it slightly odd that they spoke of being separated and I think Jamie say's 'It's two of us now", then goes on to say "It's very find to see you again Claire." That sounded so bizarre to me, like he was seeing an old acquaintance again, not the Love of His Life. Anyone else find that strange? The eyeglasses exchange was sweet - he was worried she wouldn't find him as desirable now that he's 20 years older and has to wear spectacles, just as she was worried about her own desirability and dyed her hair to look younger to him. They both want to be as desired by the other as they used to be, and really, don't we all want that, it's a universal self-criticism we all can relate to. "Time doesn't matter Sassanach, you will always be beautiful to me."

When she showed him Brianna's photos I can image how odd that was since he didn't know about photographs yet, even the Daguerrotype wasn't invented until 1839 or so, so photographic images were a long ways off! But I melted when he said, 'She has red hair like her sister, Faith", because I wondered how often he must have thought of Faith, and I wonder if Claire did as well. It seems like for Claire, she had their daughter to raise, her career, etc. and Jamie had so much less that I would imagine he thought of Faith more than her because Faith was one of three children he couldn't raise... I appreciated that Jamie told Claire about Willie straight away, but I wish he'd told her how Willie came to be in more detail. When Claire asks if he loved the mother and he says no, he leaves it hanging as if he slept with her, got her pregnant, and abandoned the child, which could not be further from the truth. If I was Claire I'd have wanted to hear the whole story, but perhaps that is coming, she just arrived after all.

FERGUS! I have to say straight off, I really miss the old Fergus but I understand he probably wasn't able to look 20 years older, but still this will take some getting used to for this Viewer! The reunion between Fergus and Claire was very sweet and @Anothermi, your query on the conversation that passed between Fergus and Jamie re: Ned Gowan seems to smell like perhaps Jamie did marry someone? If he says it might not matter because Claire is back, and he needs Ned to advise him on the law, then it seems like his first wife is back, which would nullify any other union, formal or informal, that he may have entered into, though it does seem like he's living alone in Edinburgh. So far the only family we've seen there from Clan Fraser are: Jamie, Fergus, and Ian. I know Ian said he was a Murray, but I wonder if Fergus uses Fraser or Malcomb as his surname at the moment. IIRC, he didn't even have a surname before Jamie found him, did he?

The Mr. Willoughby scene was perplexing...He seems to know Jamie as Jamie and not as Alexander Malcomb, so what is that connection? For Jamie to come and help him like that, they must have some deeper connection and I hope we learn more. But that said, I am calling a hearty BULLSHIT on both Jamie and Claire knowing basic Chinese. Come ON show, really? Where would Claire have learned any bits of Chinese?!? Bits like that really take me out of the show and make me go HUH?!?

A Second First Time:

This entire sequence was so much a mirror to The Wedding that I'll just approach it the same way, in three acts, literally and figuratively speaking! Firstly, I asked my self why Jamie would take Claire to a brothel for their first night together in 20 years, but then I realized after he explained, that this was essentially a free room, and it came with hot water, a hot dinner, and fresh linens on the bed, something he likely couldn't afford at a proper inn. Plus with all the 'background' noise their reunion wouldn't be overheard by nosy busybodies who would gossip in town about it, so I guess it makes sense...? I will say that obvious jealously aside, that Madame is crazy pants...I don't trust her at all right now. The pre-bed conversation was interesting:

Jamie: Why have you come back? I've burned for ye for so long, do ye not know that?!? Do.you.want.ME?

Claire: Whoever you are, James Fraser, yes, I do want you.

Jamie: Will ye come to bed wi' me then? (I'm not gonna lie, I wish Claire had said, "to bed, or to sleep", but hey, you can't have everything right?!)

1st Round - The Wedding: Just Sex / A. Malcomb: Primal Connection

So leading into their first time together in 20 years, the scene is basically a redux of The Wedding night but instead of it just getting Jamie's first time out of the way, as was the case in The Wedding, in this episode there is this frenzy, like this is the way they validate their connection, this is the way they see if they really still feel the same desire for one another, and as Claire says, it's like riding a bike. For their first wedding night, Jamie had put so much thought into everything and this time, he's caught off guard, but he's done pretty well in recreating their wedding night on a moment's notice. The meal is reminiscent of their meal after their first time, but I wished we'd gotten more of their 'catching each other up' on their live the past 20 years. I want to know what Claire told him about her life with Frank, if she told him that Frank cheated on her and flaunted it to her face though I dont think she'd tell him that because then Jamie would hate Frank and she'd not want him to think ill of Frank because he was a good father to Brianna. And I want to know what Jamie told Claire about his life. Did he tell her about Mary McNabb, Geneva forcing him into her bed, the misery he felt after Culloden. Did he tell her how he finally killed BJR once and for all? And what of the men he sent back to Lallybroch, did they manage to avoid battle and were they safe. Murtagh's whereabouts in the Colonies? I wonder and hope that we will come to know what they spoke of, and I assume much more is said in the books about that scene, at least I hope so!  Anyway, I loved how they undressed one another similar to their wedding night, but still with the same nervousness that a 20 year separation would bring, but this was a 'get it out of the way' session, after never thinking they would ever be together again, and it's almost like their having sex to make sure they're both real and they're both actually there.

I loved how Claire reaches out for him first, untying his stock the same gentle way he untied her lace choker on their wedding night. And the way he unties her shift and removes it the same way he did on their wedding night. And Claire's discomfort, standing there naked in front of the man she's dreamed about and been heartsick over for 20 years and he's not saying a word. Then his "Christ Claire! You're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen!" and her "I want to see you", ditto the Wedding night. This could have been super cheesy and my friend @Anothermi might kick me for thinking otherwise!, but I do. I think it's done in a way that you're just as swept away in the moment as the characters are when it could have been an eye-rolling scene.  Then, the head butting was so realistic and added just the right touch of levity to that moment. How many of us have tried to be sexy and ended up hitting someone in the face or wherever?! And I smirked when Claire said, "Do it now, and don't be gentle!" Twenty years of ice wars with Frank must have seemed like an eternity when you know what you have with your other husband!

All that aside, I don't know how Claire could be turned on by 'that hair' (tm Elaine Benis) that Jamie was sporting, it was simply awful!!!

2nd Round - The Wedding: Making Love / A. Malcomb: Love Connection

I was going to say their second time is also making love, which it is, but unlike The Wedding, when the second time was about making love and not just getting Jamie's first time out of the way, this time it's a love connection. They've confirmed they are both actually there, this is actually happening and it's not a figment of either of their imaginations. They are real. They are together. They've just gone to bed once and they know they still have 'it' together as a couple, so they can do this now and take their time, because neither of them are going away. I noted how Jamie scratches her, running his nails down her arm and it reminded me of how Claire bit him on their wedding night during round 2, and asked him if he wanted her to stop. This is a slow and sweeter version, reveling in a reunion both thought would never happen again in their lifetimes.

Claire: Long ago you asked what it was between us [when we laid together]...I still don't know...

Jamie: But it's still there...I have never loved anyone but you.

There is so much to say between them and we get so little after 20 years...I find myself wanting more, I want to be a fly on the wall for the scenes and conversations we don't see, but this is a TV show and there aren't those scenes and conversations, only what we're being shown, so I hope there is more in the books.

The Wedding: Soul Mates Connecting / A. Malcomb: Soul Mates Sealing the Connection

This time felt like it was about "did that really happen?" Making sure they are both still there and that this still real.  I can only imagine Jamie waking up in a panic thinking this is all a dream and then turning over and seeing Claire there sleeping beside him and feeling awestruck that his beloved wife is actually back. So while there are no pearls to wrap around Claire for this third time, they are wrapped in each other's arms and they don't need any other embellishments or gifts this time because they know they are meant to be, and there is no confusion or concern that the other doesn't feel the same way, as there was on their wedding night. This time they look into each others eyes the way they did that third time on their wedding night, and they are locked in, as Jamie says, "this has always been forever for me..."  It was heartbreaking though, when afterwards they were laying there and Claire was crying, to think she'd gained back the love of her life, and to do so she had to leave her heart, her Brianna behind. How sad.

Afterward:

So of course as soon as Jamie told her to stay put in the room we knew Claire wouldn't do that, she never does! Just like when she went down stairs on her Wedding night and had that unpleasant run in with Dougal, she once again goes downstairs and has an awkward run in with the girls of the brothel. It was funny they were slagging her for being too old when they all looked haggard as hell, but there was a sense of jealousy that I felt from them, and when that bit where a client was in the foyer, I thought they were going to force Claire to have service him as the new girl, so thankfully Madame stepped in there, though she looked none to pleased.

And of course this show cannot manage to have a scene in Scotland that doesn't have at least one attempted rape nearly every episode. That is getting really old! I realize that being a woman in 1700's Scotland probably was difficult on a good day, I cannot believe that every woman was dealing with attempted rape on the daily. So I'm not sure if this keeps happening to Claire because she is putting herself in dangerous situations because she is always going through life in Jamie's time as if she was a woman in her own time, or what. It's very distressing, but also getting really old.

Edited May 29, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

@Anothermi, your query on the conversation that passed between Fergus and Jamie re: Ned Gowan seems to smell like perhaps Jamie did marry someone? If he says it might not matter because Claire is back, and he needs Ned to advise him on the law, then it seems like his first wife is back, which would nullify any other union, formal or informal, that he may have entered into, though it does seem like he's living alone in Edinburgh.

I wondered about that too, but it could be that he is not "married" yet but contracted to marry someone? For whatever reason. But if it's not for love then it's for money, or connections... or under threat?  If Jamie had "promised" himself to a woman for some reason (can't see it being completely voluntary) he could be sued for breach of promise which would definitely require the services of Ned Gowan! When I googled this legality I learned that Britain didn't take away the right to sue for breach of promise until 1970! 😲

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

And what of the men he sent back to Lallybroch, did they manage to avoid battle and were they safe

Thanks for raising this because that explains the two drunken-cohorts we met in the printshop backroom. They were tied in with young Ian (he told them they could stay the night at the printshop when they were turfed from their boarding house)—so they likely come from Lallybroch—and they call him Mac Dubh which indicates they known him from the rebellion where he earned that name. Ergo, they must be from the men that Jamie saved by sending them home from Culloden. What do you think @gingerella?

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

This could have been super cheesy and my friend @Anothermi might kick me for thinking otherwise!, but I do.

I don't actually think it was super cheesy but I feel too much like an involuntary voyeur in these scenes to want to sit through long detailed ones.

Give them some privacy! I say. They haven't been together for 20 years!!!

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

the head butting was so realistic and added just the right touch of levity to that moment

^^ THIS bit!^^. I really appreciated it.  😁

[Cdh20]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Okay, that was a lot to process... At the top I'll say I loved how they used the printing press as a means of providing our visual amuse bouche at the top of the episode, nicely done Show.

I'm not really sure how to parse this out so I'll do it similarly to The Wedding since so much of it is another mirror episode. First of all, I am glad the show didn't pick up with Jamie fainting and that we saw how he began that fateful day. Finally a day went right, aye, make that verra right indeed for our James Fraser! My initial gut reaction was 'WTF is this wench acting all touchy feely with Jamie?!' but then my rational brain told me that Jamie would not likely take up with a Madam and I thought that's what she was from the start so it wasn't a surprise when it was confirmed. In fact, we know Jamie has a history of becoming friendly with well known local madams, first Madame Elise in France, and now Madam whatshername in Edinburgh, so I wasn't shocked. That said, it still got my hackles up straight away.

Small bits I enjoyed:

I loved the small touches in this episode, like Jamie touching his shop sign with the same pride that Claire showed when she too touched his shop sign, those little call backs really provide an anchor for a story that sometimes is vexing with the time travel details and such!

The two chaps who were hiding in the back of the shop, who called Jamie MacDou - I assume they are fellow former prisoners from Ardsmuir, though I wonder why they weren't sent to the Colonies along with Murtagh (alas poor Murtagh where are ye old friend?!?) and the other prisoners? That was a bit odd. I also laughed out loud at their comment to Geordie, he of the neck goiter and faint of heart! He's a really wet blanket that one, and I'm not sure I understand if he just happens to live across from Jamie's shop and that's how he came into Jamie's employment, or if there is another connection, but I rather like his straight-as-as-arrow demeanor compared to Jamie's shady dealings.

I kept hoping that some of the papers that we saw hanging in Jamie's print shop drying were going to be the actual document that Roger found him with, but I don't think there were, were they? I need to re-watch again but I'm happy to know if someone knows definitively!

Smokey the Newfie! We FINALLY have some mention of the big black dog from the amuse bouche a few episodes back, yeah! Remove him from the Milk Carton Gang!

What is this?! It's a zipper, you just pull on the tab... AND What is a bicycle? These are the little bits I always love and appreciate because they remind us of the world that Claire comes from, and that Jamie knows nothing about. I think he'd be miserable in the 1960s.

Big bits and Important stuff:

I got full body chills when Jamie sees Claire and it was so great to see that scene from his perspective this time. The way his back straightened up when he heard that voice, and when he heard her name his eyes went so wide I thought they'd pop right out of his head! Poor guy, I cannot imagine what would be like, incredulous really, so no wonder he passed out. That scene was so overwhelming on one level, and yet they managed to inject a wee bit of humor when Jamie comes to, and is afraid he pissed himself but it's just wet ink! I loved that bit, and one of the things this show does so well is place a succinct snippet of humor in exactly the right place and at the exact right time that it's needed.

When Jamie asked Claire if he could kiss her, I mean, he's always been so carefully galant with her, never assuming anything, and while I wanted him to just kiss the hell out of her, it was very sweet and Jamie-esque to ask and then pause with "We havena done this in a verra long time...", similar to when they pause on their Wedding Night and Claire blurts out "tell me about your family!", except this time they do kiss.  I did find it slightly odd that they spoke of being separated and I think Jamie say's 'It's two of us now", then goes on to say "It's very find to see you again Claire." That sounded so bizarre to me, like he was seeing an old acquaintance again, not the Love of His Life. Anyone else find that strange? The eyeglasses exchange was sweet - he was worried she wouldn't find him as desirable now that he's 20 years older and has to wear spectacles, just as she was worried about her own desirability and dyed her hair to look younger to him. They both want to be as desired by the other as they used to be, and really, don't we all want that, it's a universal self-criticism we all can relate to. "Time doesn't matter Sassanach, you will always be beautiful to me."

When she showed him Brianna's photos I can image how odd that was since he didn't know about photographs yet, even the Daguerrotype wasn't invented until 1839 or so, so photographic images were a long ways off! But I melted when he said, 'She has red hair like her sister, Faith", because I wondered how often he must have thought of Faith, and I wonder if Claire did as well. It seems like for Claire, she had their daughter to raise, her career, etc. and Jamie had so much less that I would imagine he thought of Faith more than her because Faith was one of three children he couldn't raise... I appreciated that Jamie told Claire about Willie straight away, but I wish he'd told her how Willie came to be in more detail. When Claire asks if he loved the mother and he says no, he leaves it hanging as if he slept with her, got her pregnant, and abandoned the child, which could not be further from the truth. If I was Claire I'd have wanted to hear the whole story, but perhaps that is coming, she just arrived after all.

FERGUS! I have to say straight off, I really miss the old Fergus but I understand he probably wasn't able to look 20 years older, but still this will take some getting used to for this Viewer! The reunion between Fergus and Claire was very sweet and @Anothermi, your query on the conversation that passed between Fergus and Jamie re: Ned Gowan seems to smell like perhaps Jamie did marry someone? If he says it might not matter because Claire is back, and he needs Ned to advise him on the law, then it seems like his first wife is back, which would nullify any other union, formal or informal, that he may have entered into, though it does seem like he's living alone in Edinburgh. So far the only family we've seen there from Clan Fraser are: Jamie, Fergus, and Ian. I know Ian said he was a Murray, but I wonder if Fergus uses Fraser or Malcomb as his surname at the moment. IIRC, he didn't even have a surname before Jamie found him, did he?

The Mr. Willoughby scene was perplexing...He seems to know Jamie as Jamie and not as Alexander Malcomb, so what is that connection? For Jamie to come and help him like that, they must have some deeper connection and I hope we learn more. But that said, I am calling a hearty BULLSHIT on both Jamie and Claire knowing basic Chinese. Come ON show, really? Where would Claire have learned any bits of Chinese?!? Bits like that really take me out of the show and make me go HUH?!?

A Second First Time:

This entire sequence was so much a mirror to The Wedding that I'll just approach it the same way, in three acts, literally and figuratively speaking! Firstly, I asked my self why Jamie would take Claire to a brothel for their first night together in 20 years, but then I realized after he explained, that this was essentially a free room, and it came with hot water, a hot dinner, and fresh linens on the bed, something he likely couldn't afford at a proper inn. Plus with all the 'background' noise their reunion wouldn't be overheard by nosy busybodies who would gossip in town about it, so I guess it makes sense...? I will say that obvious jealously aside, that Madame is crazy pants...I don't trust her at all right now. The pre-bed conversation was interesting:

Jamie: Why have you come back? I've burned for ye for so long, do ye not know that?!? Do.you.want.ME?

Claire: Whoever you are, James Fraser, yes, I do want you.

Jamie: Will ye come to be wi' me then? (I'm not gonna lie, I wish Claire had said, "to bed, or to sleep", but hey, you can't have everything right?!)

1st Round - The Wedding: Just Sex / A. Malcomb: Primal Connection

So leading into their first time together in 20 years, the scene is basically a redux of The Wedding night but instead of it just getting Jamie's first time out of the way, as was the case in The Wedding, in this episode there is this frenzy, like this is the way they validate their connection, this is the way they see if they really still feel the same desire for one another, and as Claire says, it's like riding a bike. For their first wedding night, Jamie had put so much thought into everything and this time, he's caught off guard, but he's done pretty well in recreating their wedding night on a moment's notice. The meal is reminiscent of their meal after their first time, but I wished we'd gotten more of their 'catching each other up' on their live the past 20 years. I want to know what Claire told him about her life with Frank, if she told him that Frank cheated on her and flaunted it to her face though I dont think she'd tell him that because then Jamie would hate Frank and she'd not want him to think ill of Frank because he was a good father to Brianna. And I want to know what Jamie told Claire about his life. Did he tell her about Mary McNabb, Geneva forcing him into her bed, the misery he felt after Culloden. Did he tell her how he finally killed BJR once and for all? And what of the men he sent back to Lallybroch, did they manage to avoid battle and were they safe. Murtagh's whereabouts in the Colonies? I wonder and hope that we will come to know what they spoke of, and I assume much more is said in the books about that scene, at least I hope so!  Anyway, I loved how they undressed one another similar to their wedding night, but still with the same nervousness that a 20 year separation would bring, but this was a 'get it out of the way' session, after never thinking they would ever be together again, and it's almost like their having sex to make sure they're both real and they're both actually there.

I loved how Claire reaches out for him first, untying his cravat the same gentle way he untied her lace choker on their wedding night. And the way he unties her shift and removes it the same way he did on their wedding night. And Claire's discomfort, standing there naked in front of the man she's dreamed about and been heartsick over for 20 years and he's not saying a word. Then his "Christ Claire! You're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen!" and her "I want to see you", ditto the Wedding night. This could have been super cheesy and my friend @Anothermi might kick me for thinking otherwise!, but I do. I think it's done is away that you're just as swept away in the moment as the characters are when it could have been an eye-rolling scene.  Then, as I said above, the head butting was so realistic and added just the right touch of levity to that moment. How many of us have tried to be sexy and ended up hitting someone in the face or wherever?! And I smirked when Claire said, "Do it now, and don't be gentle!" Twenty years of ice wars with Frank must have seemed like an eternity when you know what you have with your other husband!

All that aside, I don't know how Claire could be turned on by 'that hair' (tm Elaine Benis) that Jamie was sporting, it was simply awful!!!

2nd Round - The Wedding: Making Love / A. Malcomb: Love Connection

I was going to say their second time is also making love, which it is, but unlike The Wedding, when the second time was about making love and not just getting Jamie's first time out of the way, this time it's a love connection. They've confirmed they are both actually there, this is actually happening and it's not a figment of either of their imaginations. They are real. They are together. They've just gone to bed once and they know they still have 'it' together as a couple, so they can do this now and take their time, because neither of them are going away. I noted how Jamie scratches her, running his nails down her arm and it reminded me of how Claire bit him on their wedding night during round 2, and asked him if he wanted her to stop. This is a slow and sweeter version, but at the end when Claire is crying, I didn't think she was crying over Jamie being there, I felt like she was crying because she had the love of her life back, but she had to give up their daughter to get him back. I felt those tears were for missing Brianna and realizing she'd never see her again, but maybe I'm reading too much into that?

Claire: Long ago you asked what it was between us [when we laid together]...I still don't know...

Jamie: But it's still there...I have never loved anyone but you.

There is so much to say between them and we get so little after 20 years...I find myself wanting more, I want to be a fly on the wall for the scenes and conversations we don't see, but this is a TV show and there aren't those scenes and conversations, only what we're being shown, so I hope there is more in the books.

The Wedding: Soul Mates Connecting / A. Malcomb: Soul Mates Sealing the Connection

This was about "did last night really happen?" Making sure they are both still there and that this still real.  I can only imagine Jamie waking up in a panic thinking this is all a dream and then turning over and seeing Claire there sleeping beside him and feeling awestruck that his beloved wife is actually back. So while there are no pearls to wrap around Claire for this third time, they are wrapped in each other's arms and they don't need any other embellishments or gifts this time because they know they are meant to be, and there is no confusion or concern that the other doesn't feel the same way.

Afterward:

So of course as soon as Jamie told her to stay put in the room we knew Claire wouldn't do that, she never does! Just like when she went down stairs on her Wedding night and had that unpleasant run in with Dougal, she once again goes downstairs and has an awkward run in with the girls of the brothel. It was funny they were slagging her for being too old when they all looked haggard as hell, but there was a sense of jealousy that I felt from them, and when that bit where a client was in the foyer, I thought they were going to force Claire to have service him as the new girl, so thankfully Madame stepped in there, though she looked none to pleased.

And of course this show cannot manage to have a scene in Scotland that doesn't have at least one attempted rape nearly every episode. That is getting really old! I realize that being a woman in 1700's Scotland probably was difficult on a good day, I cannot believe that every woman was dealing with attempted rape on the daily. So I'm not sure if this keeps happening to Claire because she is putting herself in dangerous situations because she is always going through life in Jamie's time as if she was a woman in her own time, or what. It's very distressing, but also getting really old.

@ gingerella I thought Claire was crying because she had to give up Brianna to be with Jamie( he’d just said she was a good mother). Jamie & Claire  had to give up each other so that Bree could live, so I guess it’s always a compromise. 

@ Anothermi I feel like a voyeur on the intimate scenes as well! 

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

@Anothermi, your query on the conversation that passed between Fergus and Jamie re: Ned Gowan seems to smell like perhaps Jamie did marry someone? If he says it might not matter because Claire is back, and he needs Ned to advise him on the law, then it seems like his first wife is back, which would nullify any other union, formal or informal, that he may have entered into, though it does seem like he's living alone in Edinburgh.

I wondered about that too, but it could be that he is not "married" yet but contracted to marry someone? For whatever reason. But if it's not for love then it's for money, or connections... or under threat?  If Jamie had "promised" himself to a woman for some reason (can't see it being completely voluntary) he could be sued for breach of promise which would definitely require the services of Ned Gowan! When I googled this legality I learned that Britain didn't take away the right to sue for breach of promise until 1970! 😲

Oh that's a great point, and you might be on to something! That makes more sense in regards to the weird looks that Madame Fussypants gave him when he introduced Claire as his wife. He does illicit business with her, perhaps she's in on some arrangement that will facilitate their illicit dealings? Some arranged marriage with a tax collector or something like that? Who knows..I'm sure we'll find out soon enough! But we forgot to say, HUZZUH NED GOWEN! He lives! He was serving Colum at Castle Leoch, but when first he met Claire and they were talking by the river, I believe he told her he was educated in Edinburgh and I think he lived there before setting off for parts unknown and ending up in Colum's employ. So perhaps Ned is also living in Edinburgh now that the Clan way of life is over? I'd like to see him again, and Claire hasn't seen Ned since he shot off his pistol in the courtroom in an attempt to save Claire before Jamie showed up.  That's a reunion I'd like to see!

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

And what of the men he sent back to Lallybroch, did they manage to avoid battle and were they safe

Thanks for raising this because that explains the two drunken-cohorts we met in the printshop backroom. They were tied in with young Ian (he told them they could stay the night at the printshop when they were turfed from their boarding house)—so they likely come from Lallybroch—and they call him Mac Dubh which indicates they known him from the rebellion where he earned that name. Ergo, they must be from the men that Jamie saved by sending them home from Culloden. What do you think @gingerella?

Oh I hadn't thought about those two being part of the Lallybroch soldiers but you're probably right, and that's why they're there and not in the Colonies with Murtagh. That makes a lot more sense. It seems like a lot of Lallybrochers are hanging out in Edinburgh right now, it's the place to be!

Things I forgot mention in my giant missive above:

When Jamie tells Claire she's the only one he's told about Willie it was deeply touching not for what he was revealing to her, but because he'd told nobody, not even his own sister, about his son. But with Claire he can be himself and he can share with her things he cannot share with anyone else. He's been carrying around so much for so long and without someone he can trust to share things with, that it makes sense that the first thing he 'has to tell her' is that he has an son, in a way it is the biggest secret his heart has been carrying around all these years and FINALLY he can talk about Willie with the one person who will understand.

I just re-watched the Reunion Night scenes again and what struck me was the emotions of the first round. I don't know how to say this delicately so I'm just going to say it rough, the way Claire would have liked it to be said! It felt as though they were literally fucking away 20 years of desolation, desperation, and abject loneliness. It was sort of heartbreaking to watch and it wasn't a joyful romp, it was two people opening up their emotional valves and letting out 20 years worth of sorrow, of longing, of hopelessness. And that is why I found that first round very intense, not for the sex but for what that moment stood for to them both. The second time they could take their time and enjoy one another slowly because they'd been able to let out the built up steam of emotions they'd both carried around with them all that time apart.

46 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

@ gingerella I thought Claire was crying because she had to give up Brianna to be with Jamie( he’d just said she was a good mother). Jamie & Claire  had to give up each other so that Bree could live, so I guess it’s always a compromise. 

Yes, you're right, I got my timing all wrong when I re-watched just now so I changed that bit in my above post. You're correct, it happened after the third time, when Jamie was telling her she was a wonderful mother so obviously she was crying over losing Brianna. She can have her daughter without Jamie, and she's done that for 20 miserable years. Yes she's found a career and built a life around that, but she was living a half life, as Joe so aptly put it. Now she is reunited with Jamie, but without Brianna, equally sad but in a different way!

[QuinnM]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

Then, as I said above, the head butting was so realistic and added just the right touch of levity to that moment. How many of us have tried to be sexy and ended up hitting someone in the face or wherever?

I think back to the wedding night when he flipped a ‘leg over’ on the bed essentially doing a one handed push up with all his weight and Claires with the ease of a 22 year old.  Now 40 years later just scooting her up on the bed is a challenge.

[Cdh20]

I pretty much expected them to be throwing themselves into each other arms, upon first sight & doing “it” on the printshop floor, so all the nervousness came as a complete surprise to me! He goes in to kiss her, but then remembers to ask? My hubby made a comment on his watch that that aspect was so well played, because, well 20 YEARS!! I  think Jamie keeps thinking he’ll wake up from a dream & she won’t really be there. That was the longest undressing session in the history of tv....

[SassAndSnacks]

Ok!  I'm so excited for this conversation.  Let's dig in, shall we?

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I liked that they showed us the reunion from Jamie's view. And I liked that they showed us a certain level of uncertainty and wariness. They have lived 2 decades of life without each other. There are bound to be things about each of them that the other doesn't know nor would have imagined.

I really appreciate the cold open, with Jamie earnestly going about his day, completely unaware that Claire is also in the same city IN THE SAME TIME.  (Those sounds you hear are my inaudible, geek-out squeals.)

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

My initial gut reaction was 'WTF is this wench acting all touchy feely with Jamie?!' but then my rational brain told me that Jamie would not likely take up with a Madam and I thought that's what she was from the start so it wasn't a surprise when it was confirmed. In fact, we know Jamie has a history of becoming friendly with well known local madams, first Madame Elise in France, and now Madam whatshername in Edinburgh, so I wasn't shocked. That said, it still got my hackles up straight away.

Anyone not named Claire touching Jamie gets my hackles up.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I got full body chills when Jamie sees Claire and it was so great to see that scene from his perspective this time. The way his back straightened up when he heard that voice, and when he heard her name his eyes went so wide I thought they'd pop right out of his head! Poor guy, I cannot imagine what would be like, incredulous really, so no wonder he passed out.

Can you imagine?!  How many times has he "seen" her, dreamed of her, wished for her, and today of all days, he probably wasn't thinking of her at all then Boom, there she is.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I did find it slightly odd that they spoke of being separated and I think Jamie say's 'It's two of us now", then goes on to say "It's very find to see you again Claire." That sounded so bizarre to me, like he was seeing an old acquaintance again, not the Love of His Life. Anyone else find that strange?

Yes, there are a few things in this episode that I think they got wrong, and this is one.  Going from the fainting, the embracing, the sweet seeking of a kiss, tears, etc. and then "It's very fine to see you again."  It felt cold, very cold.  It would have stopped me in my tracks.  It is almost as though Jamie got wrapped up in the moment and then reality very quickly set in.

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I did laugh at Jamie brushing off Claire become a surgeon with “you've always been that, but now you have the title.”

I actually took this as a weird back-handed compliment.  Of course she would be a surgeon.  To him, she is this amazing, talented, extraordinary person.  He holds her in such high regard.  It's only natural that she would go on to something grand.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

The meal is reminiscent of their meal after their first time, but I wished we'd gotten more of their 'catching each other up' on their live the past 20 years.

YES!  Irk #2.  And this is really a universal statement for the entire series.  I think I've mentioned before (Season 2 when Jamie tells Murtaugh that Claire is from the future) that we miss so many important conversations - the Wedding when they talk about their families, Murtaugh and Jamie in Paris, Claire telling Frank what happened to her, this one, and there are others.  I don't need to hear the whole thing, but something right?  What did they feel was the most important thing that happened to them in the last 20 years that they would absolutely need to tell their soulmate?  

What's interesting is that Jamie clearly didn't tell her anything about Ardsmuir, because later, when she is trying to guess what he does for a living now, he tells her that he's been to prison for treason at Ardsmuir, and she says, "Yes, I know that and a few more things." Ok, so wouldn't you want to elaborate on how you found this man?  And also, being in prison for 5 years, kind of a big deal.  Wouldn't that have been brought up at dinner, specifically since that is how you came to live in England and father a child?  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

And Claire's discomfort, standing there naked in front of the man she's dreamed about and been heartsick over for 20 years and he's not saying a word.

What I really appreciate about the whole episode is Claire's vulnerability.  There's an underlying current of uncertainty and vulnerability, and who can blame her?  On top of the huge decision of going back in time 200 years, she only knows the basics of Jamie's life since then, and I think my mind would be absolutely racing the entire time trying to determine if and how I fit into this now.  Nevermind all of the physical uncertainties of whether or not this man will still want her the way he used to.  

When she asks him if he wants her to go, and he tells her he's burned for her for 20 years... Lump in my throat.  Diana Gabaldon at her finest.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Twenty years of ice wars with Frank must have seemed like an eternity when you know what you have with your other husband!

Would also like to point out that she kept her eyes wide open with Jamie.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I'm not sure if this keeps happening to Claire because she is putting herself in dangerous situations because she is always going through life in Jamie's time as if she was a woman in her own time, or what. It's very distressing, but also getting really old.

I think it is both - Jamie's world and Claire's modern take on it.  Claire always sticks out a bit, she's always a little different, and that attracts unwanted attention.  Couple that with who Jamie just is and does, it's bound to get her into dangerous situations.  I wish these two would just find a cozy cottage somewhere out of the way and live happily undisturbed together.  

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

It felt as though they were literally fucking away 20 years of desolation, desperation, and abject loneliness. It was sort of heartbreaking to watch and it wasn't a joyful romp, it was two people opening up their emotional valves and letting out 20 years worth of sorrow, of longing, of hopelessness. And that is why I found that first round very intense, not for the sex but for what that moment stood for to them both. The second time they could take their time and enjoy one another slowly because they'd been able to let out the built up steam of emotions they'd both carried around with them all that time apart.

This is perfectly stated. 

46 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

I think back to the wedding night when he flipped a ‘leg over’ on the bed essentially doing a one handed push up with all his weight and Claires with the ease of a 22 year old.  Now 40 years later just scooting her up on the bed is a challenge.

See!  They did age!

39 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

That was the longest undressing session in the history of tv....

Yes, long and slightly awkward.  I found myself thinking that maybe that was intentional when I watched it this time.  We, as the audience, were supposed to feel a little awkward, because Jamie and Claire were also feeling a little nervous and slightly awkward.  

[gingerella]

16 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

And Claire's discomfort, standing there naked in front of the man she's dreamed about and been heartsick over for 20 years and he's not saying a word.

What I really appreciate about the whole episode is Claire's vulnerability.  There's an underlying current of uncertainty and vulnerability, and who can blame her?  On top of the huge decision of going back in time 200 years, she only knows the basics of Jamie's life since then, and I think my mind would be absolutely racing the entire time trying to determine if and how I fit into this now.  Nevermind all of the physical uncertainties of whether or not this man will still want her the way he used to.  

When she asks him if he wants her to go, and he tells her he's burned for her for 20 years... Lump in my throat.  Diana Gabaldon at her finest.  

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

Twenty years of ice wars with Frank must have seemed like an eternity when you know what you have with your other husband!

Would also like to point out that she kept her eyes wide open with Jamie.  

Yes to the above, but especially the bolded parts. It was such a huge leap of faith for Claire to go back to Jamie, not being 100% certain that he'd want her back, that he might have a new family now and no longer be interested in picking up the past, and so on. Usually in the past, we've seen Jamie be the more vulnerable of the two of them, he has always been so emotionally open with Claire in a way that is almost startling because of it's pure, honest earnestness, and because men of his time simply did not reveal their deepest, innermost emotions so openly even to their wives. When Jamie asked Claire if the way it is between them, if that's how it is between all men and woman, that was such an earnest and honest question, who would ask that of their woman during that time? But Jamie has shown us time and again that he is a very modern man for his times, despite the trappings of traditional male culture that he wears so well. So yes, seeing Claire be the vulnerable one in this episode is almost jarring to me. She was willing to leave their daughter forever, to reunite with this man who may or may not still feel the same way about her, and every hesitation, every pause, every wondering glance gives way to what I can only image as panic and fear that she may have made a bad decision and he may not want her the way she's wanted him for every minute of every hour of every day of every year since they parted the day of Culloden.

And yes, I didn't make the connection but you are so right, she kept her eyes open for Jamie, there was no need to close them and pretend he was someone else. Sorry Frank...(wait, who's Frank?!?)!

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

She was willing to leave their daughter forever, to reunite with this man who may or may not still feel the same way about her, and every hesitation, every pause, every wondering glance gives way to what I can only image as panic and fear that she may have made a bad decision and he may not want her the way she's wanted him for every minute of every hour of every day of every year since they parted the day of Culloden.

Though she didn't want to do it and didn't mean to do it, she had created a stable life for herself.  She bought a vase (and a whole lot more).  Now, she's left that stability, and for what?  Jamie, certainly, and a lot of uncertainties that come with him - living in a brothel, smuggling, treason, and whatever it is that needs Ned Gowan's attention.  

Claire tells Jamie, and probably herself, that she knew he would have had a life. Telling yourself, mentally prepping yourself for something only goes so far.  Experiencing it and seeing it firsthand had to be confusing and unnerving to a degree.  

I think her questions to him are interesting, too.  "Did you love his mother."  "Is it because you are such a good customer?" "Did you fall in love with anyone else?" All of these show a different type of emotional attachment.  Jamie knows he sent her back to be with someone who loved her, so he would expect her to have been with someone else.  She left Jamie thinking he would be gone in hours, never having the opportunity to be with anyone else, but he didn't die and it's 20 years later.  She's trying to fill in that gap in emotional attachment between him then and him now. If the answer had been YES to those questions, maybe he wouldn't have wanted her the same she way she has wanted him since Culloden. 

When you haven't seen someone in a long time, you always anticipate them being the same as they were the last time you saw them.  You can tell yourself that X amount of time has passed, but deep-down you still think about and treat that person as who they were when you were last with them.  But, time passes, things happen, people evolve, and no matter how consistent their personality type, everyone changes a bit based upon the path their lives take.  

[gingerella]

I was watching a modern dance film just now, that a friend's niece made, and there was a quote in it that struck me and made me think of Outlander and Jamie in particular:

"Only when we have traveled to each others 'worlds' are we [fully] persons to each other."

~ Maria Lugones, "Playfulness, World Traveling and Loving Perception" ~

This quote made me think of Jamie, and in this episode in particular because when he brought Claire to the Stones the morning of Culloden, she begged him to come through the stones with her, but he said very quickly and with a certain amount of sureness, "I canna go with you" or something like that. But overall, from what the Show version gives us, Jamie doesn't really seem all that interested in Claire's world, the world she comes from, does he? I mean yes, we've seen him ask over two seasons small things like asking Claire about airplanes and inquiring about a person or thing when Claire says some reference he doesn't know about, and we've seen him in this episode ask about zippers and bicycles, but he doesn't seem all that interested in where she comes from if you know what I mean. I hadn't really noticed this until I read that quote this morning, but then it hit me and it felt sort of unbalanced. And this quote made me think, how can Jamie truly know Claire if he doesn't know her world? She knows his for sure, but it's one-sided.

Jamie lives life on the edge even 20 years later - he's still engaged in acts that are teetering on the edge, if not over, what is legal and illegal now. He's printing Papist propaganda that is considered seditious, and so dangerous that he tells his Lallybroch men to be very, very careful so as not to get caught with this printed material they're delivering for him. He lives part time in a brothel where things are bound to get heated - I wonder if he's ever been in brawls there before to protect the ladies because I cannot see him being in his room whilst a brawl is going on in house. And we see him leave Claire alone there on her first day back, and already she's met with someone sinister who's broken into his room and threatens to rape her. The 1700's in Jamie's world - and by that I mean the world and situations he puts himself (not the average person in Scotland) into are not safe for Claire, she's been almost raped how many times now?! Maybe you'd think if he loved her so much he might ask what it is like in her world, if he could try to go there with her what might it be like for him, for them? And most importantly, would Claire be safer there? Would THEY be safer there?

I'm not sure if the reason he canna go through the Stones with her is because one cannot travel forward in time, they can only travel back in time? I wonder the conversation I'm mentioning above happens in the books but not in the Show? And I'm wondering why Jamie was so immediately insistent that he could not go back through the Stones with Claire. Does he know more than we've seen him know about the Stones? Or was it simply duty to his men to go back and fight in the battle that day. Certainly the latter would have been more of Jamie's M.O. but it's baffling to me that he doesn't seem to ask that much about her life and her time, at least not in the Show. That's why the dinner scene in this episode is so unsatisfying and lacking to me. It feels almost selfish for Jamie to not at least try to go to Claire's time, to see if they can make a better life for themselves there. I mean, she has a bitchin' house in Cambridge, MA, and I'm sure Jamie could find something to do there. They could bring him up to speed whilst staying at the Reverend's house for a period of time, before going back to Boston. The whole thing is odd to me, but then again, I've never watched a show that has time travel as a huge element of it's story line so maybe it's just that...

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

But overall, from what the Show version gives us, Jamie doesn't really seem all that interested in Claire's world, the world she comes from, does he?

My first thought was something Jamie says after one of their lovemaking sessions this episode. Something about Claire giving him a child—one who is alive and safe—and because of her (the child) they both will live forever. 

Jamie has his (papist) faith and he believes in a duty to continue his father and mother's line. For him? That is thinking about the future. 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I'm not sure if the reason he canna go through the Stones with her is because one cannot travel forward in time, they can only travel back in time? I wonder the conversation I'm mentioning above happens in the books but not in the Show? And I'm wondering why Jamie was so immediately insistent that he could not go back through the Stones with Claire.

...  Or was it simply duty to his men to go back and fight in the battle that day.

I thought—when Jamie said the above—that he was signalling that he had unfinished business—pressing unfinished business—that he could not leave. He knew he needed to keep Claire safe and that if she remained in Scotland she would not be safe. He also knew where she would be safe—Where she came from. But he had a duty to all the men who joined the rebellion and would not save himself and leave them to die–especially given he KNEW they would not win and most would be massacred. This was a dept of honour to him. The other was that he hoped he'd find and kill BJR in that battle. A dept he owed himself. He could not walk away from those imperatives. 

In his mind he would not be able to protect Claire after Culloden—he believed he'd die at Culloden but (hopefully) not until he'd fulfilled his duties.  It wasn't the choice he wanted to make. Just the only one he had left. He had no space in his mind to be curious about the future. What kind of future would it be for him if he arrived there a coward and oath-breaker—not only to others, but to himself? What kind of father would he make with that on his conscience? Of course he was insistent that he could not go through the stones with her. 

I don't think he knew whether or not he could go through the stones. Keep in mind I subscribe to the idea that his spirit was freed on that night in Inverness when Claire happened to be there, rather than the idea that he time travelled. Heh, heh—time will tell. 

But as I ponder what it would be like for Jamie to be plunked into Claire's world I don't see it being viable for him. He would not know any of the history that occurred between the time-he-came-from and the time-he-arrived-in—or the complete change in lifestyle (think Claire being unable to cook using a gas range!). But everyone else would. He'd be dependant on Claire completely—an almost childlike dependency. He'd feel stupid and useless. She'd be the breadwinner and the protector.

Everything we know now is an accumulation of knowledge, not an info dump. He wouldn't even speak the same language as other Scots in the 20th century much less English or French which had changed a great deal over 200 centuries. 

 I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 

[gingerella]

9 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

My first thought was something Jamie says after one of their lovemaking sessions this episode. Something about Claire giving him a child—one who is alive and safe—and because of her (the child) they both will live forever. 

Jamie has his (papist) faith and he believes in a duty to continue his father and mother's line. For him? That is thinking about the future. 

Yes you're right, and I noticed this as well. It felt like no matter what else happens now in his life, he has done the ultimate duty, passed on his bloodline well into the future so the rest is gravy, so to speak, though I hope he still wants to make a full life of his own now that Claire's back.

And I agree with all the rest of your post @Anothermi, but I feel like there ought to be more dialogue between them about Claire's world. Maybe I'm just wanting something that either doesn't exist in the story at all, or it exists in the Books but not in the Show?

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

But as I ponder what it would be like for Jamie to be plunked into Claire's world I don't see it being viable for him. He would not know any of the history that occurred between the time-he-came-from and the time-he-arrived-in—or the complete change in lifestyle (think Claire being unable to cook using a gas range!). But everyone else would. He'd be dependant on Claire completely—an almost childlike dependency. He'd feel stupid and useless. She'd be the breadwinner and the protector.

I think he would adjust.  Jaime could still get work taking care of horses, working on a farm, etc. even today.  Getting used to the conveniences of life is easier in some ways than what Claire had to do, which was to do without and go back to more primitive technologies.  It has been unclear to me what Jaime's passion actually is.  He seemed fine running a wine business, helping to run Lallybrock, commanding an army, and now apparently printing pamphlets.  Did he prefer printing pamphlets over working with animals/in the fields?  Is that why he was doing what he was doing now?  Those were the questions I had when I first watched this episode.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Camera One

[Anothermi]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Did he prefer printing pamphlets over working with animals/in the fields?  Is that why he was doing what he was doing now?  Those were the questions I had when I first watched this episode.

I thought he'd answered that this episode. He is still engaged with fighting the British takeover of his country. They took away his weapons but he found a different one in the form of the printing press.  I hope we get to see how he acquired both the business and the skill. I wonder if Mr. Willoughby might be a link to this? Pretty sure China had printing methods long before Europeans did. And I'm equally sure that the basic methods weren't that different until machinery was introduced into the process. 

[Camera One]

24 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I thought he'd answered that this episode. He is still engaged with fighting the British takeover of his country. They took away his weapons but he found a different one in the form of the printing press.  I hope we get to see how he acquired both the business and the skill. I wonder if Mr. Willoughby might be a link to this? Pretty sure China had printing methods long before Europeans did. And I'm equally sure that the basic methods weren't that different until machinery was introduced into the process. 

I guess I wasn't convinced.  He didn't seem all that politically passionate before.  It would make sense given his imprisonment and what we historically know happened in Scotland after Culloden, but they skipped over all of that aftermath.  I also didn't understand why he wasn't helping Jenny with Lallybroch.   I thought family was important to him.  What about his promise to Colum to guide his son?   Yes, I was quite excited to learn more about a printshop too.  I think I said it in this thread or the last episode's one... I loved how this show changes setting with new aspects of historical life to explore.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Camera One

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I guess I wasn't convinced.  He didn't seem all that politically passionate before.  It would make sense given his imprisonment and what we historically know happened in Scotland after Culloden, but they skipped over all of that aftermath.  I also didn't understand why he wasn't helping Jenny with Lallybroch.   I thought family was important to him.  What about his promise to Colum to guide his son?   Yes, I was quite excited to learn more about a printshop too.  I think I said it in this thread or the last episode's one... I loved how this show changes setting with new aspects of historical life to explore.

All of this is a big question with me as well. Perhaps we will get answers though so I'm willing to wait it out a bit, at least through this season.

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

But as I ponder what it would be like for Jamie to be plunked into Claire's world I don't see it being viable for him. He would not know any of the history that occurred between the time-he-came-from and the time-he-arrived-in—or the complete change in lifestyle (think Claire being unable to cook using a gas range!). But everyone else would. He'd be dependant on Claire completely—an almost childlike dependency. He'd feel stupid and useless. She'd be the breadwinner and the protector.

I've thought of this too, and I stumbled upon a hilarious video that pretty much hits this nail on its head. It's not revealing anything spoilery as any Story references have already come to pass in S01 - S02 and it relates to Jamie being in Claire's time but it's quite funny, so enjoy!

Claire & Jamie seek couples counseling

Edited May 29, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

13 minutes ago, gingerella said:

All of this is a big question with me as well. Perhaps we will get answers though so I'm willing to wait it out a bit, at least through this season.

I've thought of this too, and I stumbled upon a hilarious video that pretty much hits this nail on its head. It's not revealing anything spoilery as any Story references have already come to pass in S01 - S02 and it relates to Jamie being in Claire's time but it's quite funny, so enjoy!

Claire & Jamie seek couples counseling

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[gingerella]

17 hours ago, Anothermi said:

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Glad you enjoyed that as much as I did! I'd love to see a comedy series about Jamie adapting to Claire's 'monstrous' times based on that snippet of hilarity!

I was re-reading the above thread and had a thought about Anothermi's comment that Jamie was still fighting the British but instead of guns and swords he was using his printing press and words.

Like @Camera One, I never really thought of Jamie in this way mainly because Jamie wasn't very political before he met Claire. In fact, he says himself in that episode where Leery makes a pass at him down by the river, how he was just going through life taking it where it led him without a plan, until he met Claire. When they went to France it was to escape Jamie's bounty and to heal. Once there, they got sucked into this plan, which IIRC was originally Claire's idea, to try to thwart BPCs return and his Rebellion and ultimately Culloden, thus changing history. But none of that ever felt like Jamie was passionate about a Stuart on the throne since he was in actuality trying to prevent that, and the whole idea/plan was Claires to begin with. Was he a proud Scot? Absolutely! And yes, he suffered physically and mentally at the hands of the British army, but I never got the impression he was passionate about political ideology. That said, perhaps all that changes once he thought he'd lost Claire forever? Maybe just as Claire threw herself into practicing medicine as a way to keep Jamie, and her life with him, alive in her own time, perhaps Jamie turns to printing seditious, Papist propaganda as his way of keeping Claire's political fighting spirit in his life...? Maybe they both are doing this (Claire with being a surgeon and Jamie printing seditious materials) as they only way to keep a glimmer of the other in their daily existence because both have lost all hope of ever reconnecting again until Roger's Christmas arrival...

Also, as we move through this season I am increasingly wanting to slow my viewing down so I can make my first watch of this series last longer...is this a normal reaction?!?

Edited May 30, 2021 by gingerella

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, gingerella said:

When they went to France it was to escape Jamie's bounty and to heal. Once there, they got sucked into this plan, which IIRC was originally Claire's idea, to try to thwart BPCs return and his Rebellion and ultimately Culloden, thus changing history. But none of that ever felt like Jamie was passionate about a Stuart on the throne since he was in actuality trying to prevent that, and the whole idea/plan was Claires to begin with. Was he a proud Scot? Absolutely! And yes, he suffered physically and mentally at the hands of the British army, but I never got the impression he was passionate about political ideology.

That perfectly described how I felt.  You would have expected a Scot to be appalled at Claire's initial plan to sabotage BPC.  But Jaime hardly had a reaction and went along with it.  I sort of liked that because I think Jaime saw the bigger picture of what Culloden would do to his people, and his ability to see the bigger picture and viewing both sides of an issue (one of the reasons Colum felt he was a better leader than Dougal).  Heck, he even dined with the prison warden once a week since he realized that was the only way to help his fellow prisoners.  That's the Jaime I know and appreciate.  However, this lack of response made it impossible to buy Jaime enthusiastically backing BPC in the second half of Season 2.  So I mostly saw it as Jaime trying to find a way to change the outcome to save the Scots, and also to ensure a safe future for Claire, and not so much as Jaime being suddenly becoming strongly nationalistic like Dougal was.  Jaime's actions felt more like pragmatism to me.  All of that made Jaime becoming a seditious pamphlet printer here an unlikely stretch for me, since they never really expanded on or developed an evolution of Jaime's political ideals in the flashbacks over the first half of Season 3 in those "missing" years.

17 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Also, as we move through this season I am increasingly wanting to slow my viewing down so I can make my first watch of this series last longer...is this a normal reaction?!?

That's great if you can do that!  I was a few months ahead of you all in watching Season 2 onwards for the first time, and it was hard for me not to binge-watch... I ended up limiting myself to one episode per night, but even that was hit and miss! 

Seeing Season 2 two years after Season 1 did make me go back and rewatch Season 1 concurrently as Season 2 (it helped that you were all watching Season 1 at that time and I could read responses), so that slowed me down a bit.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Camera One

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Also, as we move through this season I am increasingly wanting to slow my viewing down so I can make my first watch of this series last longer...is this a normal reaction?!?

That's great if you can do that!  I was a few months ahead of you all in watching Season 2 onwards for the first time, and it was hard for me not to binge-watch... I ended up limiting myself to one episode per night, but even that was hit and miss! 

Seeing Season 2 two years after Season 1 did make me go back and rewatch Season 1 concurrently as Season 2 (it helped that you were all watching Season 1 at that time and I could read responses), so that slowed me down a bit.

One of the things I enjoy about writing about a show like this with a group like you all, is that it gives breathing room to hear what others saw in an episode, and get new takes on things you may have missed or interpreted differently than another viewer. So taking time between viewing episodes helps make that happen and for me it enriches the viewing experience!

[Anothermi]

22 hours ago, Camera One said:

I guess I wasn't convinced.  He didn't seem all that politically passionate before.

People do have Ah Hah! moments in their lives when they stop complaining about inequities and start doing something about them. In Jamie's case I think it was that he always tried to correct inequities when he saw them and just fell into being the one who was expected to lead the way.

I don't disagree that Jamie was not particularly political in the first two Seasons, but by Season Two he had taken on a position of leadership—whether he wanted it or not—and it shaped him. He spent a lot of post-Culloden time not involved in any political activity while he was evading capture, but even then he'd acquired a reputation (Dunn Bonnet and Mac Duhb) amongst his countrymen as one who opposed how the English ruled. He understood that his fellow Scots had lost much of their pride and self-worth and were stripped of opportunities to rebuild—even just as families—after the English won or "put them down". All of that would also shape him—along with being looked to by many countrymen to DO SOMETHING about it. 

So I wasn't claiming Jamie had "gone political"—as in wanting a Papist King—which he'd never espoused before (he was tricked into openly supporting BPC). What he wanted was to improve his fellow Scot's lives. When Jamie uses the word "seditious" he is speaking of how the English see what he is doing and recognizing the seriousness of his undertaking. HE is just trying to do something about getting back what was taken from them—their self worth and basic rights.

The following was gotten from googling the topic of the pamphlet mentioned so I'll spoiler it just in case. *That pamphlet  he wrote—and that Roger found—

Spoiler

was against the British law that made it illegal for Scots to distill whiskey—taking away a tradition; a skill; and a means of earning money. That would have been seen as sedition by the British rulers of the time. Scotland was the leading distiller of fine whiskey before that law and it was an international business. The law said Scots couldn't make money that way anymore.

He was opposing a British Law and that was defacto political. 

The English takeover of his country was—for him—about how Scots lived their lives and what they could do (or not be allowed to do) to better themselves. Not about who was King. To me, that is a political cause because it challenged the decisions the English made that impacted Scots. 

In Jamie's time there was no concept of ordinary people being allowed a say over their lives, nor the right to try to change unfair laws. 

* I looked up this issue after the episode it appeared in. So that is information from outside of the show.  However, we were told during the show—by Roger—that given the timeline  they had worked out back in Scotland Jamie must have written it the year before Roger came to tell Claire about it.  It tells us what kind of "sedition" Jamie was engaged in. 

[Camera One]

36 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

People do have Ah Hah! moments in their lives when they stop complaining about inequities and start doing something about them. 

I agree, though in a narrative like a series, I need to see that Ah Hah moment to find the character change convincing.

Quote

  The following was gotten from googling the topic of the pamphlet mentioned so I'll spoiler it just in case. *That pamphlet  he wrote—and that Roger found—

Oh, how interesting!  I was curious what the pamphlet that Roger found actually said.  That definition of "sedition" does make the story work a bit better since it wasn't like Jaime was promoting another rebellion or a dramatic overthrow of British rule.

[gingerella]

26 minutes ago, Camera One said:

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

People do have Ah Hah! moments in their lives when they stop complaining about inequities and start doing something about them. 

I agree, though in a narrative like a series, I need to see that Ah Hah moment to find the character change convincing.

Whenever this happens so far in this Show, I assume it's handled in more detail in the Books because from what I hear they are GoTs thick, so there's more space to flesh this stuff out. Perhaps the Books explain it better, but I also like to see that Aha moment.

@Anothermi, you make a very convincing argument and I appreciate your detailed explanation, I can see all that, absolutely!

One thing still bothering me about this episode...When Claire and Jamie are in bed (I can't remember if it's after round 3 or in the morning), the following exchange takes place:

Jamie: I never thought I'd laugh in a woman's bed again, Sassenach, or even come to one, save as a brute, blind with need.

Claire: Is that what you'd do, when you had the need?

Jamie: Claire, I.....*turns away, doesn't want to finish his thought*

Claire: It's okay, we can take things slow

I didn't get why Jamie was suddenly so demure and shy or embarrassed. Was it because he didn't want to explain in that moment about Mary McNabb and Geneva? And is Claire referring to taking things slow in terms of them revealing how they've coped the last 20 years? Or am I missing something?

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I agree, though in a narrative like a series, I need to see that Ah Hah moment to find the character change convincing.

I'm a little slow on the uptake, but now I understand where you were coming from. Think we'll get a flashback to fill that in?

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

That definition of "sedition" does make the story work a bit better since it wasn't like Jaime was promoting another rebellion or a dramatic overthrow of British rule.

I'm not sure that the "Roger" pamphlet was one of Jamie's seditious ones, but it could have been. I wasn't able to see much of it except something about restricting trade and the "freedom and whisky" quote. Anything else I could see was the kind of circumlocution that could mean one thing to Scots reading the pamphlet and something quite different from a legal standpoint. Jamie seems to have learned how to dance around a topic in such a way as to speak to those who follow him without using the words the English would find legally chargeable. 

That particular topic appears to have a direct tie-in to the smuggling sideline that must pay for the print house. Always the razor's edge with this guy!

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

One thing still bothering me about this episode...When Claire and Jamie are in bed (I can't remember if it's after round 3 or in the morning), the following exchange takes place:

Jamie: I never thought I'd laugh in a woman's bed again, Sassenach, or even come to one, save as a brute, blind with need.

Claire: Is that what you'd do, when you had the need?

Jamie: Claire, I.....*turns away, doesn't want to finish his thought*

Claire: It's okay, we can take things slow

Yes indeed. I wondered about that interchange as well. Was it about  Mary McNabb and Geneva or something else even more difficult to talk about? Inquiring minds would like to know more and soon!

[SassAndSnacks]

On 5/29/2021 at 3:56 PM, gingerella said:

I wonder the conversation I'm mentioning above happens in the books but not in the Show?

 

On 5/29/2021 at 5:57 PM, gingerella said:

but I feel like there ought to be more dialogue between them about Claire's world. Maybe I'm just wanting something that either doesn't exist in the story at all, or it exists in the Books but not in the Show?

The story is much more fleshed out in the books, of course.  The books are massive.  Voyager, on which Season 3 is based, alone is nearly 900 pages.  In the books, Claire and Jamie do have these conversations, and he is much more interested in "her" world and time.  

The show set a stage for time-travel in the very first episode, and since then, it has glossed over the various aspects surrounding it.  I'm not here for that aspect of the story, so it doesn't bother me so much, but every now and then that glossing is problematic to the big picture of the narrative, the characters, and where all of this is going. 

On 5/29/2021 at 5:45 PM, Anothermi said:

But as I ponder what it would be like for Jamie to be plunked into Claire's world I don't see it being viable for him. He would not know any of the history that occurred between the time-he-came-from and the time-he-arrived-in—or the complete change in lifestyle (think Claire being unable to cook using a gas range!). But everyone else would.

I agree.  I think in the grand scheme of things, it would be much easier to travel back to a time where people have been and you have some record of than it would be to travel forward to a complete unknown.  

On 5/30/2021 at 1:19 PM, gingerella said:

But none of that ever felt like Jamie was passionate about a Stuart on the throne since he was in actuality trying to prevent that, and the whole idea/plan was Claires to begin with. Was he a proud Scot? Absolutely! And yes, he suffered physically and mentally at the hands of the British army, but I never got the impression he was passionate about political ideology. That said, perhaps all that changes once he thought he'd lost Claire forever? Maybe just as Claire threw herself into practicing medicine as a way to keep Jamie, and her life with him, alive in her own time, perhaps Jamie turns to printing seditious, Papist propaganda as his way of keeping Claire's political fighting spirit in his life...? Maybe they both are doing this (Claire with being a surgeon and Jamie printing seditious materials) as they only way to keep a glimmer of the other in their daily existence because both have lost all hope of ever reconnecting again until Roger's Christmas arrival...

Jamie always seems to roll with whatever is placed in front of him.  He thinks and plans very quickly on the fly which is a huge strength for him.  I think he is good at identifying opportunities are they are presented and then working through them.  My guess is that a printing press in Edinburgh fell into his lap somehow and he just went with it.  Because the British took everything from him - his land, his clan, his family, his wife, his child, his innocence, and his freedom - it makes sense that he wouldn't exactly be Team Brit.

On 5/30/2021 at 1:35 PM, Camera One said:

So I mostly saw it as Jaime trying to find a way to change the outcome to save the Scots, and also to ensure a safe future for Claire, and not so much as Jaime being suddenly becoming strongly nationalistic like Dougal was.  Jaime's actions felt more like pragmatism to me. 

Yes, or what you said!  He is incredibly pragmatic. 

On 5/30/2021 at 1:19 PM, gingerella said:

Also, as we move through this season I am increasingly wanting to slow my viewing down so I can make my first watch of this series last longer...is this a normal reaction?!?

Ha!  Yes!  But I'm loving the daily updates, and there's STILL so much to talk about!

 

[Scarlett45]

On 5/30/2021 at 7:35 PM, Anothermi said:

Yes indeed. I wondered about that interchange as well. Was it about  Mary McNabb and Geneva or something else even more difficult to talk about? Inquiring minds would like to know more and soon!

@gingerella and @Anothermi I think Jaime is reconciling this lived experiences for the last 20yrs, and his need for social, emotional, and sexual connection, with the lack of access to Claire.

 

Of course when Claire learned that he was alive, she didnt think he wouldve been celibate all this time, but I think that having Claire back, and (trying not be be cliche) being able to "make love" for the first time in two decades (rather than just satisfy a need for partnered sex) is bringing up the grief for Jaime all over again, the grief of losing her and the pain of being so lonely all these years.

[Anothermi]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

@gingerella and @Anothermi I think Jaime is reconciling this lived experiences for the last 20yrs, and his need for social, emotional, and sexual connection, with the lack of access to Claire.

 

Of course when Claire learned that he was alive, she didnt think he wouldve been celibate all this time, but I think that having Claire back, and (trying not be be cliche) being able to "make love" for the first time in two decades (rather than just satisfy a need for partnered sex) is bringing up the grief for Jaime all over again, the grief of losing her and the pain of being so lonely all these years.

Interesting that I had just revisited this episode to remind myself of the part where Jamie had told Claire she had done the right thing—going back through the stones. The conversation sounds different with a few more episodes under our belt. 

Your explanation of Jamie's feelings does explain that statement I couldn't make sense of:

(gingerella wrote:)

Jamie: I never thought I'd laugh in a woman's bed again, Sassenach, or even come to one, save as a brute, blind with need.

Jamie always did have the heart of a poet when he speaks the depth of his feelings to Claire. Thanks to Diana Gabaldon. 😉

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Anothermi

[Scarlett45]

17 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Jamie: I never thought I'd laugh in a woman's bed again, Sassenach, or even come to one, save as a brute, blind with need.

Jamie always did have the heart of a poet when he speaks the depth of his feelings to Claire. Thanks to Diana Gabaldon. 😉

Yup yup. Jaime thought that he would never laugh in bed with a woman again, or "make love" with one, only to meet his physical sexual needs (and not his emotional needs).