S04.E07: Not a Great Bet

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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In a Gretchen-focused episode, Gretchen goes home for the birth of her brother's baby, but instead ends up reconnecting with a friend from her past, who inadvertently reveals why Jimmy may have left her.

[Deanie87]

Does Gretchen have any redeeming qualities?  I may have to do a series rewatch because I am hard pressed to recall any.

[msani19]

54 minutes ago, Deanie87 said:

Does Gretchen have any redeeming qualities?  I may have to do a series rewatch because I am hard pressed to recall any

I'm right there with you in thinking that. Yeah, maybe the answer we need is in the earlier seasons.

I find her more and more reprehensible with each episode. The utter and willful lack of even the most minimal self-reflection is beyond irritating. 

[Irlandesa]

I'm terrible because I was upset the cops came to interrupt the scene before Gretchen gave that high schooler a blow job.  I felt like she deserved to suffer the consequences of her stupidity in that moment.

[Jade Foxx]

1 hour ago, msani19 said:

I'm right there with you in thinking that. Yeah, maybe the answer we need is in the earlier seasons.

I find her more and more reprehensible with each episode. The utter and willful lack of even the most minimal self-reflection is beyond irritating. 

She’s profoundly more fucked up than I ever realized. Which is sad. 

[arc]

I loved this episode. It was hard to watch in spots but it felt so real to me. Yes, obviously moments are heightened because it's a comedy, but the emotional sense of having moved on and visiting an old hometown that's kept on living and changing without you, the emotion of Gretchen feeling at a loss and trying to fill that void with a dive back into her old life -- it's powerful and real.

[whiporee]

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I'm terrible because I was upset the cops came to interrupt the scene before Gretchen gave that high schooler a blow job.  I felt like she deserved to suffer the consequences of her stupidity in that moment.

That was some serious acting on Aya's part. The whole gamut of emotions of a full grown, kind-of-successful adult succumbing to teenage peer pressure, and the reluctance she showed as well as she was doing it anyway. The regretful blowjob -- even though it didn't pay off -- was powerful stuff. 

While I liked the storyline, if Heidi wasn't really a pal, I don't know why she was willing to spend the day with Gretchen. Unless they were setting up a thing where she was kind of bored, an old friend dropped in and she played hooky until she realized what a child Gretchen still was, and she didn't want that in her life. I could see that. 

Gretchen's child-like-ness was a bit overblown, though. Not knowing even the basics of life seems a bit on the nose for a show that can be nuanced. Cinnamon sugar ain't hard -- I think it that was a simple answer, Might have been netter to pick something more complex to make the point. 

I also thought they were making a different point that they were. I thought Gretchen was attracted to Heidi mostly because she knew she was going to die, and that would explain her attraction to Jimmy, because he was gong to leave her anyway. Keeps her from getting really hurt. Instead it became about Gretchen being a chameleon, which isn't a part of her character we've really seen except when she's with her parents. So I was surprised that they're bringing and stating as canon a characteristic of her we haven't really seen yet. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by whiporee

[luna1122]

This episode was riveting to me, but yeah, Gretchen has levels of fucked-up-ed-ness we didn't even realize. It's shocking she even bothered to go home for the birth of a niece/nephew, and also shocking is that her family seems perfectly nice and normal, with a really nice house and a sweet, terribly old cat who Gretchen didn't even realize was still alive. How do you not know your old family pet is alive or dead? Or the chick you thought was your old BFF, even if she really never was? How do you never ask those questions of your family? What happened to make Gretchen this way?

Loved seeing Zosia, tho it's so weird that Heidi sounded absolutely not a thing like Shoshanna. I didn't really get Heidi's remembrance of Gretchen that 'everyone liked you, or wanted you'....because why? She was pretty, sure, and obviously sexual early, so there's that, but Gretchen as a girl everyone liked is incomprehensible. I think Heidi was just a little bored, a little interested, as they HAD been friends a long time ago...but ultimately, found Gretchen just...creepy and crazy. I wanted Gretchen to have a few repercussions for her actions too...not just emotional ones...getting busted for, I dunno, statutory rape might have had a lingering effect on her. Or not. She's SO fucked up.

[Arynm]

Gretchen is so sad to me. I usually take her side because I find Jimmy callous and mean, but she was so completely reprehensible here that I can't even root for her. Why does she think anything she does is a good idea, and then when she does something terrible, she just doubles down and goes even deeper. Why did she think a teenage boy would turn down a blowjob, even if it meant he had to eat cat food? The other boy wanted that deal too. Let's just add statutory rape to your laundry list of charges. I can't find anything right now to like about her.

She's a coward, and I can't stand cowards. This had better be the beginning of some serious growth for her. I don't care if the growth is her figuring out how to buy cinnamon, I will accept baby steps from the show, but had better be leading somewhere big.

I liked the girl flat out saying she wanted no part of Gretchen's fucked up life. Most people would hem and haw and just ghost them later. Girl knew Gretchen was poison and cut her right out, one night was enough for her.

[scrb]

Gretch is too cool for her family and her old town.

But the truth is, she's about the same in terms of emotional maturity as when she was going to high school there.

The lecherous teacher says her face has filled out but he probably still sees the same girl from back in the day.

 

And compared to Shosh, who survived cancer and actually grew up, she's still stuck in the past.

Shosh chose to come back home while Gretch really never left the small town, no matter how much she extols the tacos in LA -- really, that's all she can come up with about why LA is so great?

[DrSpaceman73]

11 hours ago, Deanie87 said:

Does Gretchen have any redeeming qualities?  I may have to do a series rewatch because I am hard pressed to recall any.

This season, no.  She has been an insufferable bitch. 

I thought it was a great episode though with lots of layers in the cancer storyline paralleling her life and lack of growth. 

She thinks she lost an old friend to cancer.  Turns out she did not lose them to cancer.  She lost her friend, but it was because they grew apart and her friend matured while Gretchen did not.  She rediscovered and then re-lost her friend for unexpected reasons. 

She was the creepy old woman to the kids just like the old teacher was the creepy old guy to them. 

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Loved seeing Zosia, tho it's so weird that Heidi sounded absolutely not a thing like Shoshanna. I didn't really get Heidi's remembrance of Gretchen that 'everyone liked you, or wanted you'....because why? She was pretty, sure, and obviously sexual early, so there's that, but Gretchen as a girl everyone liked is incomprehensible. I think Heidi was just a little bored, a little interested, as they HAD been friends a long time ago...but ultimately, found Gretchen just...creepy and crazy. I wanted Gretchen to have a few repercussions for her actions too...not just emotional ones...getting busted for, I dunno, statutory rape might have had a lingering effect on her. Or not. She's SO fucked up.

I think what Heidi meant was everyone looked to Gretchen when they needed someone to go out and have a good time with, but they didn't look at her as a 'friend' per se because Gretchen is so forked up and because, as she mentioned, she never really got close to anyone. 

And Heidi did the same thing with her this episode, as you mentioned.  I agree, I think she was bored, curious, wanted to see if Gretchen had changed or matured and found out she hadn't.  She was fun to spend a day with but certainly not someone you want to have to deal with day to day or on a regular basis. 

[wendyg]

In season 1-2 underneath everything Gretchen had a vulnerability that was touching. I think it's fair to figure that Jimmy's abandonment is the reason she's so unhinged this season, but I'm not sure the writers have got the balance quite right (and it may not be quite the same writing team). What I'm having trouble reconciling is the timid way she conformed to anything her parents would approve of in S1 to her blowing them off here.

[possibilities]

She has priors.

That sums it up.

I still don't understand why she's the way she is, but not knowing cinnamon is widely available and very easy to purchase-- and never having bothered to look into it despite her apparent love of cinnamon toast-- that's a degree of oblivion that makes it hard to understand how she's managed to survive at all.

This episode was way more disturbing than funny.

And honestly-- it's not that incredible, really. I've met people just this dysfunctional. I keep hoping the show will give me some insight into how they got this way but so far even they seem to be saying: we have no fucking idea, either. It's just how she is.

I don't think it gets Jimmy off the hook for his shit at all, though. He proposed to her in elaborate fashion, and it's not like he hasn't seen who she is before then, or had any time AFTER the proposal to discover new information about how messed up she is; she didn't do anything wrong in that moment, and he abandoned her within seconds of doing it, so I don't really see this episode as an explanation for Jimmy's issues the way the description seems to think it is.

[iMonrey]

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This episode was way more disturbing than funny.

Yeah, that's the way I felt about it too, and in fact that's how I feel about Gretchen overall for the last couple of seasons. And that poor kid ate cat food for nothing!

It's a little thing, but I'm not sure I buy teen Gretchen making that memory book with all the glitter and spangles. I mean, we've seen she's kind of into artwork (she drew on Lindsay's walls) - but that memory books seems like the type of thing Gretchen would have mocked in her teenage years. This is a kid who had vodka and cigarettes hidden in the air duct.

Edited October 12, 2017 by iMonrey

[Duke2801]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

It's a little thing, but I'm not sure I buy teen Gretchen making that memory book with all the glitter and spangles. I mean, we've seen she's kind of into artwork (she drew on Lindsay's walls) - but that memory books seems like the type of thing Gretchen would have mocked in her teenage years. This is a kid who had vodka and cigarettes hidden in the air duct.

 

Yea I didn't buy that she made it either. Maybe her mom did? 

I also had had a hard time believing that in the era of social media  Facebook, Twitter, etc -- that Gretchen would have had NO idea her old friend was still alive. 

On the other hand, she is incredibly self absorbed... so perhaps I can believe it after all. 

[Glade]

Given that one of the teens they met at the mall was the spitting image of a younger Paul (but without his personal defects,) it makes me wonder if the rest of them were meant to be mini-versions of the main cast.  The blonde boy that Gretchen promised a blow job could have been a younger Jimmy, since he's talked about being chubby in his adolescence.  Anyway, that entire scene was sad and creepy.  And it's very ironic that Gretchen talked about what a creep her former teacher was when there she is getting kids drunk and committing statutory rape.  When I heard that she would be going home, I thought we'd learn of some troubling childhood secret--an aunt or uncle molesting her, alcoholism in the family...but no, it's just Gretchen being herself.  

[Jade Foxx]

1 hour ago, Glade said:

When I heard that she would be going home, I thought we'd learn of some troubling childhood secret--an aunt or uncle molesting her, alcoholism in the family...but no, it's just Gretchen being herself.  

Agreed! I'd really like there to be more.  

But sometimes there isn't, barring a diagnosed personality disorder, childhood trauma, etc.

I thought Gretch was just slightly more damaged than the rest of us, but with a compelling reason why.  

[whiporee]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And that poor kid ate cat food for nothing!

I dunno. A pretty older woman kneeling in front of him, unzipping his pants and getting ready to blow him in front of his friends .... I think he's got .. material to last him a while..?Hell, he looked like he wasn't even going to make it to fondling.

I think he did fine in the tradeoff.

Edited October 12, 2017 by whiporee

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, scrb said:

Shosh chose to come back home while Gretch really never left the small town, no matter how much she extols the tacos in LA -- really, that's all she can come up with about why LA is so great?

Well, to be fair, the tacos in Los Angeles ARE really good!

[Zima]

I loved this episode. I thought it was dark and hilarious..dark comedy-style! Loved Shoshanna as Heidi, and wish she would be a recurring character.

[arc]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Well, to be fair, the tacos in Los Angeles ARE really good!

And appreciating them puts her ahead of a lot of the LA transplants I know who’ll talk about Taco Bell, Del Taco, or even Chipotle all the time but I never see them talk about real taquerias.

18 hours ago, whiporee said:

Gretchen's child-like-ness was a bit overblown, though. Not knowing even the basics of life seems a bit on the nose for a show that can be nuanced. Cinnamon sugar ain't hard -- I think it that was a simple answer, Might have been netter to pick something more complex to make the point. 

I buy it. The Gretchen who lived on her own in S1 almost certainly never ever cooked for herself. She might not have ever even wandered down the aisle where spices are sold in the supermarket.

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It's a little thing, but I'm not sure I buy teen Gretchen making that memory book with all the glitter and spangles. I mean, we've seen she's kind of into artwork (she drew on Lindsay's walls) - but that memory books seems like the type of thing Gretchen would have mocked in her teenage years. This is a kid who had vodka and cigarettes hidden in the air duct.

Teen Gretchen probably wouldn’t have made it. Eighth grade Gretchen might have. Heidi did say Gretch changed after that year. And her room would have had stuff from her whole life (til she left).

Edited October 13, 2017 by arc

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, arc said:

And appreciating them puts her ahead of a lot of the LA transplants I know who’ll talk about Taco Bell, Del Taco, or even Chipotle all the time but I never see them talk about real taquerias.

Ha, yeah, that drives me crazy. You live in LA! You have access to all of these amazing taco shops and you're going to shitty chains! WHY?! I remember in college, there was this hole in the wall taco shop that didn't even have a real menu that had the best food. There were several people who would go with me but wouldn't eat there and then wanted to stop at Taco Bell on the way back. GET OUT OF MY CAR AND NEVER COME BACK!

[DrSpaceman73]

I also agree this episode was not funny but sad. 

But there have been several episodes like this over the course of the show. 

This reminded me somehow of the one where she is spying on the couple down the road and we get a peak into their lives.  They both take Gretchen's view of a strange world or a new situation without the others involved for the most part that she becomes enamored and explores in her forked up way. 

[Deanie87]

15 hours ago, Jade Foxx said:

Agreed! I'd really like there to be more.  

But sometimes there isn't, barring a diagnosed personality disorder, childhood trauma, etc.

I thought Gretch was just slightly more damaged than the rest of us, but with a compelling reason why.  

I don't know how I feel about this.  On the one hand, its such a cliche for Gretchen to have some deep, dark, secret in her past that makes her the way that she is, but on the other hand, it just makes her seem like a bratty, entitled, selfish bitch...just because.  And I'm really bored with all of that and frankly, pretty bored with Gretchen too.  Her POV has been explored in much, much more depth than any other character on the show to increasingly diminishing returns for me.  Jimmy's family was an abomination, which explains his pretension and flaws pretty well, Edgar clearly has issues with PTSD that inform his character, and even as bad as Lindsay is she at least has a foe in Becca, which while it may not explain all of her behavior, makes some of it understandable.  Gretchen just seems kind of spoiled to me.  In earlier seasons, her parents seemed kind of controlling, so I get a certain amount of rebellion.  But they don't seem horrible and they had the wi-fi password in CROSS STITCH in the guest room!  That was adorable, I mean how bad could they be? Certainly not bad enough to warrant her treatment of them and her sister, and I am very reluctant to blame all of this on her illness.  I get that she is one of the main characters, but I'm tired of her centric episodes that do nothing but make her seem like a spoiled, destructive brat.  They have a limited number of episodes a season, and I wish that they would share the wealth with other characters, or at least give me something to root for.  She isn't even good at her job anymore and is fast becoming my least favorite character, which really sucks. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Deanie87

[wendyg]

DrSpaceman73: I think those episodes remind you of each other because in both Gretchen tries on a different life as an experiment, both times because she's at a low point. My guess is that around 8th grade the depression hit and she seemed like a chameleon to people because she was always having to "act human" in a place where she was never going to fit in no matter what she did. What's really interesting is how did Lindsay get past all that in college?

[ChromaKelly]

This episode was disturbing. So, she would have sucked a minor's dick if the cops hadn't busted in? As bad as Gretchen was, her "friend" was pretty horrible too. I kept thinking about those kids who probably all got arrested and suffered who knows what consequences all because two grown ass adult women plied them with alcohol. They turned it down a couple times before they gave in. Ugh. Didn't care for this one at all. 

[Silly Angel]

That was amazing. I thought Zosia Mamet killed it, and I find her...problematic on that other show. The way Heidi was simultaneously wary, disinterested, and full-heartedly down with Gretchen's fucked-up shenanigans. You can see her mentally calculating, picking and choosing how much of Gretchen she will let in. So good. The lighting was really wonderful too. That early-morning light while they walked away from the rental car. I hope this interlude gives Gretchen something to think about. It's not cute at 30ish, and she's seeing herself that way for the first time. The cinnamon thing had me cringing. Jesus, grow up. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

15 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

The lighting was really wonderful too.

I was actually going to complain about the lighting.  You're right about the early morning scene, but what was up with the lighting at the car rental counter?  It looked like the entire place was smoke-filled, but in this day and age with no indoor smoking, that couldn't have been the issue.

[Barlowe]

On 2017-10-12 at 11:11 AM, wendyg said:

In season 1-2 underneath everything Gretchen had a vulnerability that was touching. I think it's fair to figure that Jimmy's abandonment is the reason she's so unhinged this season, but I'm not sure the writers have got the balance quite right (and it may not be quite the same writing team). What I'm having trouble reconciling is the timid way she conformed to anything her parents would approve of in S1 to her blowing them off here.

I've been having problems with this show since Season 3 and I'm only liking this season slightly more. Everything is too heightened and they seem to be leaning into too many gags like the Richard Spencer punch from last week. It's definitely a writing problem and I'm pretty sure some of the writers from before have split time writing for other shows or left and the creator himself got a production deal for multiple shows on the network so he probably hasn't been as hands on as before. This episode and "Drink Your Milk" exist in two separate worlds; there's no way that Gretchen's been working on her and her parents' relationship between now and then or that they've changed so much that they aren't judgemental or controlling. So it rings falls that were made to feel sad that she doesn't help them out or visit them at the end.