S04.E08: Goodwill

[AmandaPanda]

Quote

Cameron helps Donna pack up; Bos makes his famous chili; Joe helps Haley recover a memorable keepsake; Gordon and Donna fight.

[crashdown]

That episode was a thing of perfect beauty.  It was art without being pompous, which is a hard thing to pull off.  I'm overcome and not even embarrassed about admitting it.

[MJS]

That was the single best depiction of grief I’ve ever seen..

[rlc]

I'm really going to miss this show.

[Armchair Critic]

I may have gotten a lump in my throat when Donna told Cameron she missed her and Cameron said something like "I'm still here".

[ketose]

Bos makes chili was about the best description of his role in the episode.

I'm never all that excited by the realistic depiction of death in media. However, I was glad to see Gordon again and I imagine that incident was the thing Donna was thinking about that day. Gordon left her for the last time.

[Texasmom1970]

This episode was perfect. The tone, dialog, mood, acting. Had me thinking about grief I have felt from my loss of loved ones. The mix of reactions throughout the episode rang true.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

I may have gotten a lump in my throat when Donna told Cameron she missed her and Cameron said something like "I'm still here".

That was really good, but I've got to go with "I finished your game."

I would have liked a little more of the flashbacks because we never got to see Gordon and Donna make that first computer. 

[scrb]

Where did Gordon go after the fight in the flashbacks?

I don't doubt that there was real love, abiding connections between these characters.

But a lot of bickering throughout their lives, even very early in Donna and Gordon's marriage.

They had an amicable divorce and respectful coparenting setup but there was not a hint of bitterness between them?

They each clashed with their daughters too.

But it wasn't limited just to this family.  Joe and Cam have bickered in the same ways.  Their relationship can certainly be considered volatile, though have they found some calm and will they end up in this state of relative peace?

I think the writers used these arguments to show how passionate each of the 4 main characters were, kind of like using the same dramatic device for all of them.  OK they were/are passionate about their work.  But that passion probably can be exhausting to be around sometimes.

[AllyB]

I didn't really like the flashback part. Gordon was a terrible father and really bad husband in them. The bit where right after he promised Donna he'd help more with Joanie and Joanie started crying and he made no move to attend her. Donna looked at him reminding him of his promise and his response was to say leave the 3 month old to cry. Then storm out and leave the wife who has just told him she is exhausted to care for the baby alone all night. I just wanted to kill him right there and then. The Gordon of the last two seasons has been evolving into a nice man, a good co-parent and a mostly great father, I didn't need to see him at his worst to appreciate the change in him.

[crashdown]

I love the restraint that the show demonstrated in the Donna/Cameron fumblings toward a reconciliation.  I probably couldn't have managed that same restraint--I'd have had sobbing, hugs, and apologies, and that would have been entirely wrong.  I can't say it better than the Vulture recapper Kathryn VanArendonk did:

Quote

These are the circumstances that finally bring Cameron and Donna back together again. It’s the last one-on-one conversation in an episode full of them, and it’s an unbelievable, absolutely astonishing scene. They can’t talk about Rover and Comet, and they absolutely cannot talk about Mutiny, but they talk around the edges of their estrangement by centering their feelings on Gordon. “There’s just not a lot of people in my life,” Cameron tells Donna. “Me neither,” Donna replies. They talk through Cameron and Joe’s diverging feelings about having kids, and Donna’s deep desire for children echo back to flashback that started the episode. And finally, their conversation about Gordon, loss, regret, and friendship merges with the undercurrent they’ve been tiptoeing around: They miss each other. Gordon is gone, but they’re both still here. Cameron made Pilgrim for people like Donna, except they’ve both admitted there aren’t a lot of “people” in their lives. Just each other.

The recapper is right that they can't yet talk about the pain of the past--when Donna tries to apologize for something as recent as what she said to Cam at the hospital, Cam shuts it down by saying she doesn't remember it.  Denying its existence is all she can manage, because she knows that acknowledging what Donna is trying to do might lead to the floodgates of the past opening up, and she isn't ready to talk about what happened with Mutiny.  All they can manage to talk about (or talk around) is how much they still miss and care about each other. They still need to have a conversation about their past, and I'm confident that it will come.  I just hope it comes in the final two episodes, so I don't have to imagine how it would gone down.

[ketose]

It's funny. I really don't care about Cameron and Donna's relationship. It doesn't help that Cameron is spending her time in a Unabomber shack and Donna is making money off other people's innovations. Gordon's absence highlights the flaws in a season 4 of this show. Time jumps and teenage drama aren't exactly what I've been looking for. I guess HACF will end with a whimper for me.

[madam magpie]

5 hours ago, AllyB said:

I didn't really like the flashback part. Gordon was a terrible father and really bad husband in them. The bit where right after he promised Donna he'd help more with Joanie and Joanie started crying and he made no move to attend her. Donna looked at him reminding him of his promise and his response was to say leave the 3 month old to cry. Then storm out and leave the wife who has just told him she is exhausted to care for the baby alone all night. I just wanted to kill him right there and then. The Gordon of the last two seasons has been evolving into a nice man, a good co-parent and a mostly great father, I didn't need to see him at his worst to appreciate the change in him.

I actually liked this inclusion because it helped me remember that Gordon wasn’t a great guy. He was a lousy guy in some ways, mediocre in others, good in others. And he was ever-evolving. Gordon was always my least favorite of the main four characters, and this reminded me of why.

I loved this episode and agree with the poster above who said it was an incredible portrayal of grief. Donna/Cam got me crying. I loved the bit with Joe/Haley and the sweater. Bos and his chili. Just really fantastic.

[crashdown]

There are a lot of beautiful little bits in the episode, but one that particularly got to me was Haley's wordless goodbye to Katie, as another person disappeared from her life forever.  Just wrenching.

[dubbel zout]

49 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I loved the bit with Joe/Haley and the sweater.

I know. I especially loved when Joe opened the bag and realized it was the wrong one, and he and Haley burst out laughing. You could tell how cathartic it was for them to be able to laugh. And Haley driving over the curb while leaving the drop-off was perfect.

38 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Haley's wordless goodbye to Katie

I thought Katie leaving without saying goodbye was pretty selfish. Grief is hard, and it sucks, and maybe she talked to the girls at Gordon's service and told them she was leaving then, but it didn't seem like it.

I also really liked Cameron being so pleased that Donna finished playing Pilgrim and totally got what Cam was going for.

Edited October 8, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Moxie Cat]

A couple thoughts about the flashback:

- it was Gordon's last memory before he passed. So I take it to be a, if not the, moment in his life that meant the most to him.

- while his actions annoyed me too, I think it was probably a moment that changed him, and that was the point.

- I don't think the flashback had anything to do with Donna or Donna remembering it - it was all about Gordon and that it was a pivotal moment for him. 

I teared up too at the Cam/Donna scene, but I was blown away by Lee Pace's mostly silent reaction shots. We got words from everyone else, but Joe is devastated, maybe more than any of the rest of them, and I really got that. (Not that I expected any less from Pace.)

I didn't mind Katie's reaction in the car. She had reached her breaking point, after already being there for awhile and getting shaken by remembering finding him (I can't imagine). When she saw Haley, she knew that all she would do at that point was burst out crying over this poor 14 year old who was holding it together. I don't see it as selfish, in that moment, that she chose to drive away.

[Rowsdower]

Following multiple episodes' off-screen private interactions between Joanie and Haley, the audience was privy to one.

I recall speculation in this forum that Joanie had discovered compromising information about Haley and was using it to blackmail her. (This was before the issue underlying Haley's anxiety was revealed.) Last night's conversation painted a very different picture — implying that Haley confided in (i.e., came out to) Joanie, whose attitude toward her sister appears genuinely caring and supportive, despite tinges of envy.

[scrb]

Can someone quickly summarize what happened with Mutiny that Donna and Cameron fell out so bitterly?

My recollection was they had one of many arguments and Donna kind of drifted into VC and working for Diane.

[Ingrin]

24 minutes ago, scrb said:

Can someone quickly summarize what happened with Mutiny that Donna and Cameron fell out so bitterly?

My recollection was they had one of many arguments and Donna kind of drifted into VC and working for Diane.

As I recall, it began with Cameron doing her loner flaky thing.  She didn't want to keep the developers from the company they merged with earlier in the season.  Donna falsely told Cameron that Diane said Cameron couldn't fire the other developers.  In actuality, while Diane didn't agree with Cameron's desire to get rid of the other team, she felt it was Cameron's and Donna's company, and would respect their decision.

Cameron found out Donna lied, and was upset.  Later, when she realized Donna was wanting to go public with Mutiny, she basically told the shareholders to choose between them, and everyone sided with Donna, so Cameron was ousted.

When the IPO didn't go as well as hoped, Donna joined Diane at her VC company and Cameron went to Japan and developed games.

Later, when Joe came up with the idea for Internet play, Donna tried to sell the idea to Cameron, saying they could dump Joe.  Instead Cameron turned the tables and iced out Donna.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Ingrin

[Negritude]

I literally LOL'd at the scene with Joe and Haley in the car and he tells her to put on what she was listening to on her walkman and it was "Fishheads." The look on his face...bwahahahaha. of course I had to google the song and it was some novelty joke song. It goes along with her being a Kids in the Hall fan. Haley is cool lol. Good call show. 

[Rowsdower]

11 minutes ago, Negritude said:

I literally LOL'd at the scene with Joe and Haley in the car and he tells her to put on what she was listening to on her walkman and it was "Fishheads." The look on his face...bwahahahaha.

Absolutely perfect. When Haley warned Joe that he wouldn't like it, he assumed that she was basing this conclusion on his age. "Fish Heads" was released in 1978, so the chronology wasn't really a factor. The song was simply bizarre (which was why I loved it).

11 minutes ago, Negritude said:

of course I had to google the song and it was some novelty joke song.

It's a legendary novelty song, given national exposure by Dr. Demento and reportedly becoming the most requested song in his radio show's history.

It was recorded by Barnes & Barnes, a duo comprising childhood friends Robert Haimer and Bill Mumy (the well known actor).

The music video, which debuted on Saturday Night Live in 1980, was directed by the late Bill Paxton and features appearances by Paxton and Dr. Demento (whose MTV/Comedy Central specials of the late 1980s and early 1990s invariably featured it among the top spots in the countdown).

11 minutes ago, Negritude said:

It goes along with her being a Kids in the Hall fan.

Very much so.

11 minutes ago, Negritude said:

Haley is cool lol. 

And in case anyone needed further confirmation, the episode also showed Haley's They Might Be Giants Flood poster (and I hadn't noticed, but I understand that a TMBG Apollo 18 poster was seen on her bedroom wall previously). Again, just a perfect fit.

[crashdown]

14 hours ago, scrb said:

Can someone quickly summarize what happened with Mutiny that Donna and Cameron fell out so bitterly?

Ingrin summarized the facts of the matter well, but I want to add a few things. As I see it, the implosion of Mutiny was a direct result of who Cameron and Donna were at the time, which is very different from the people they have become now.  (That's part of why I find the whole thing so sad.) At the time she founded Mutiny, Cameron was only about five years older than Joanie is now, and she didn't behave much differently: she really was Queen Big Dick then. When Donna came to Mutiny, she had worked for years at Texas Instruments in unrewarding, dead-end job. Mutiny was an ersatz frat house filled with code monkeys and constant crises, many of which Donna had to solve in her apparent role as den mother.  She didn't relish the role, and she was constantly aware of the fact that Cameron's hashtag was "genius" and her own was "mom."  Donna was the one who came up with the idea of Community, a proto-bulletin board forum separate from the gaming aspect of the company.  Cameron was pretty scornful of Community for a long time, even though it quickly outstripped the games in terms of growth. Very occasionally, Cameron would try to tell Donna how much she valued her contributions, and how important Donna was to her personally, but she never could do it very well, or very often--communicating in words was even harder for her then than it is now. Donna needed more, because feeling seen as someone smart and competent was very important to her.  

These tiny cracks became larger fissures, ultimately leading to Donna's lying to Cam about whether or not Diane was on board with the idea of firing the two guys who had come to Mutiny as a result of Mutiny's acquisition of their company.  Ultimately, even though both Donna and Cam attempted to fix things between them, the whole thing came to a head in a meeting that degenerated into the worst kind of fight: Cam and Donna said the sorts of things to each other that pushed their most vulnerable buttons, the sort of fight you can only have with the people that you really know and love.  Both Boz and Diane tried to put an end to the meeting so that everyone could cool off, but Cam pushed the point and said that the issue (whether Mutiny should go public now--Donna's view--or wait until some problems were fixed--Cam's view) had to be decided right then, and if the rest of them voted to go public she would leave the company.  They all voted (reluctantly) to side with Donna.  Cam wailed like a dying animal and staggered out.

The IPO turned out to be a disaster, and it ultimately led to the demise of Mutiny.  Donna has carried all of that guilt around ever since: she destroyed her friendship with Cameron, and she destroyed the company that both of them had loved. Four years later, at the end of last season, she tried to approach Cameron with an idea for working together on the development of a browser for the emerging Web. Cameron told Donna then that she thought furiously about the two of them every single day, and that she had no interest in making things better between them.  She changed her mind a bit, tentatively warming up as they discussed the project (Gordon and Joe had come on board along the way). But just when things seemed to be getting almost ok, Donna told Cam that if Joe was a problem for her, they could get rid of him. The next day, Cam came back and said that she couldn't work with Donna, that Donna tossed people aside the minute she didn't find them useful anymore. Donna stormed off, telling Cam that she could keep the project for herself.  She booked a plane to CERN to start working on her own browser, ostensibly turning at that moment into the ruthless version of Donna that we saw at the beginning of this season.

I think it's impossible to overstate how painful all of this was for Cameron--for Donna too, of course, but the psychology of Cam interests me more. She's someone who had a terrible, unstable childhood and who never made friends easily.  She had an in-your-face, off-putting manner that acted as an effective defensive shield to keep people away. Despite all that, she made a real connection with Donna, and she really cared about her. And then, as she saw it, Donna betrayed her in the worst way possible, ultimately taking away the company that she built and loved.  I don't think that they can truly get past all of that baggage without talking about it, but it will be a very hard conversation for both of them.

[Addlepated]

The bit with Bos asking Joe to test the chili because he KNEW Joe hadn't been eating.  And quietly hovering until he saw that Joe ate more than just a bite.  Bos has his flaws, but I loved him more in that moment because it was so true.

 

Then the part with Joe and Haley in the car, bursting into laughter and then slowly slipping into silence, while wondering if they were bad people for laughing like that with so much grief around them.

 

And I thought Joe was going to lose it at the dinner table, but he managed to hold himself together.  Hopefully it doesn't come out in the wrong way later.

 

Donna and Cam talking about the fake things you say just to make the conversation stop - "Hanging in there" - and Cam being nearly incoherent in her grief.  Nobody has wanted to break down in front of anyone else and this was the first moment we saw where anyone let it out.

 

This plot with Gordon has been the best since Buffy and Six Feet Under in showing what it's really like to lose someone.

[dubbel zout]

The Vulture recap mentioned part of the Donna/Cam conversation that was so perfect: 

Quote

“I spent so much time telling him everything he did wrong,” [Donna] tells Cameron, wavering on the edge of exhaustion and collapse. “… He did a ton wrong,” Cameron replies. They laugh and cry, together.

Edited October 9, 2017 by dubbel zout

[attica]

On 10/8/2017 at 3:07 AM, scrb said:

Where did Gordon go after the fight in the flashbacks?

To the quarry Donna mentioned a few episodes ago, the one she did a cartwheel to jump into. Gordon was proving his bravery to himself here.

[crashdown]

Two responses to the above: I loved "He did a ton wrong," too.  Of the many things that were so great about "Goodwill," the unexpected touches of humor are right up there. Zack Whedon said on Twitter that he thinks this script is the best thing he ever wrote, and that's certainly saying something. A couple of reviewers have pointed out some tonal similarities between this episode and Zack's brother Joss's "The Body," a Buffy classic.  I agree with that.  And one thing that Zack seems to share with Joss is the ability to insert just the right sprinklings of humor in his stew of angst.

And second, just how do we figure Gordon got back to his car after jumping off of the cliff into the quarry?  He couldn't scale the cliff itself, and if he swam to some theoretical spot that was closer to land, he'd have to walk pretty far in his bare feet.  I hope there was some sort of rope ladder somewhere!

[scowl]

This episode was the best example of what I don't like about the show. The characters spent a lot of time talking and not really saying anything. For example the outdoor scene with Cam and Donna was a lot of  "Oh this is so hard!" and "How are you doing?" with lots and lots of pauses for the actors to emote for the camera. I'm not going to miss this show.

[crashdown]

17 hours ago, scowl said:

This episode was the best example of what I don't like about the show. The characters spent a lot of time talking and not really saying anything. For example the outdoor scene with Cam and Donna was a lot of  "Oh this is so hard!" and "How are you doing?" with lots and lots of pauses for the actors to emote for the camera. I'm not going to miss this show.

I advise you to stay away from anything ever done by Marshall Herskovitz and Ed Zwick!

Edited October 10, 2017 by crashdown

[tennisgurl]

That was a super emotionally draining hour of television, but in the best possible way. It just hit every, horrible note of dealing with loss, along with sprinklings of humor. 

Pretty much all the main characters are or can be, as Cameron said, dicks, and Gordon was the biggest dick of all sometimes, but I still felt awful about his death, and felt so much sympathy for his friends and family dealing with it. Its really a credit to the writers and actors that they can make me feel so much for characters I have wanted to reach through the screen and throttle more than once over the years. In the first season, the only people I could stand were Donna and Bos, and they were just supporting characters, and even they can certainly be dicks. Still, I still care about them, so this episode was still heartbreaking. 

So many great moments. Donna and Cameron on the porch talking about how they dont have many people in their lives, that Gordon did "a lot wrong" and how much they missed him none the less, Bos making chili and trying to get Joe to eat, Joe almost breaking down at the dinner table but holding it together for another minute, all the awkward silences after a death, it was great in the worst ways possible. 

I actually laughed out loud when Fishheads started playing in the truck (one of my dads favorite novelty songs) and then felt guilt, much like Joe and Haley did. 

[ketose]

On 10/9/2017 at 2:16 AM, Negritude said:

I literally LOL'd at the scene with Joe and Haley in the car and he tells her to put on what she was listening to on her walkman and it was "Fishheads." The look on his face...bwahahahaha. of course I had to google the song and it was some novelty joke song. It goes along with her being a Kids in the Hall fan. Haley is cool lol. Good call show. 

If Haley was into that song in the mid 90's there's a really good chance she was listening to Dr. Demento on the weekend. 

[Kel Varnsen]

What an amazing episode. Everyone just totally brought it, and it is really too bad this show isn't on anyone's radar with respect to awards since that was the best episode of a dramatic show I have seen in a very long time. They totally sold how even though this is season 4 these people have known and been close with each other for over a decade. Probably closer than anyone else any of them know. So yea a death is going to hit super hard.

Also the use of So Far Away and that whole scene was great. I have had that song stuck in my head all day.

I was also surprised by Joe this episode. It was kind of funny to see him at the Goodwill, since Season 1 Joe would have just offered that guy fifty bucks for the bag. Back in season 1 I totally wrote him off as an 80's cliche, and now he really was like a real guy who just lost his best friend.

[kieyra]

This show makes me glad to live in Peak TV. In another time it wouldn't have been allowed to find its legs.

Also, don't often see shows take on the fact that some women just don't want to have kids.

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, kieyra said:

Also, don't often see shows take on the fact that some women just don't want to have kids.

More that women who don't want kids aren't some abomination of nature. I'm so glad Donna took Cam seriously, and didn't condescend that all she needed to change her mind was to meet the right man. I heard that all the time and it drove me crazy, especially when I was in my mid-thirties and older. I know my own mind, thank you very much.

[Kel Varnsen]

16 hours ago, kieyra said:

This show makes me glad to live in Peak TV. In another time it wouldn't have been allowed to find its legs.

Also, don't often see shows take on the fact that some women just don't want to have kids.

Is it a peak tv thing or it it just really lucky timing? I am just thinking that this show came out at like the perfect time when AMCs two huge shows were winding down (Mad Men and Breaking Bad). While this show was never a hit it was never really critically destroyed like some of the other crap AMC has put out over the same time period. That combined with a loyal audience could be enough to keep it on. Especially since the only other hit AMC had is Walking Dead, and i imagine that they don't want to just be known as the zombie channel.

As for the kids thing, it seems pretty common on tv to me, women either explicitly saying they don't want kids or just never expressing any interest in having them. 

[Mrs Shibbles]

On 10/10/2017 at 9:06 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Also the use of So Far Away and that whole scene was great. I have had that song stuck in my head all day.

What a haunting song! It's a good one to have stuck.  It's been in my head for days.  I didn't fully appreciate this song back in the day when I was ten years old.

It fit the mood of the episode, and also, in a weird way, my current mood about recent sad events (Tom Petty, Las Vegas, CA fires, etc).

[jelley]

On 10/8/2017 at 4:58 PM, Moxie Cat said:

I teared up too at the Cam/Donna scene, but I was blown away by Lee Pace's mostly silent reaction shots. We got words from everyone else, but Joe is devastated, maybe more than any of the rest of them, and I really got that. (Not that I expected any less from Pace.)

 

So very much this!  I am pretty stone-hearted with tv shows, but Joe's face at the dinner table brought real tears to my eyes.  The whole episode was emotional, but it was that quiet devastation that finally got me.

[RustbeltWriter]

My heart broke when Donna put on Dire Straits So Far Away. I don't know who selected that song but it was perfect.