S03.E03: All Debts Paid

[Athena]

Quote

In prison, Jamie discovers that an old foe has become the warden – and now has the power to make his life a living hell. Over the years, Claire and Frank both put their best foot forward to share a harmonious marriage, but an uninvited guest shatters this illusion, bringing their differences to light.

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[ElectricBoogaloo]

Wow, they covered a lot of time in Claire's story this week. I felt sorry for  everyone in that situation: Frank for staying in a loveless marriage so he could be part of Brianna's life, Claire for being faced with Frank's girlfriend at her graduation party, and even poor Sandy for being Frank's side piece for so long and not getting to finally marry him because he died. Everyone was so unhappy that I wanted to shake them all.

Given Grey's vehement reaction to being told that his predecessor dined with Jamie every week (on top of knowing Grey's history with Jamie), I kept thinking that Grey was pulling a long con and that eventually he would kill Jamie. Apparently I am just way too suspicious of everyone after dealing with BJR for three seasons. When Grey said that the "friend" who inspired him to join was killed at Culloden, I thought he was going to reveal that BJR had been his mentor/boyfriend.

So Jamie's going to work at Downton Abbey now?

[nara]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So Jamie's going to work at Downton Abbey now?

I can easily buy the sisters squabbling over Jamie!  ;)

*********************************

I actually cried quite a bit during this episode.  I hate to say it, but perhaps we are getting some really touching story lines and nuanced acting  this season because Claire and Jamie are forced to be apart.  The show cannot rely on romance and sex, so it has to dig deeper...

Frank's story was incredibly sad. He has been straightforward and true to his commitment to raising Brianna.  His devotion to the child is really quite moving.  And I think he's right that Brianna would have gone with him to England.  However, being in an unhappy marriage is terrible, and I'm glad that he was able to date.  Sandy must have really loved him too because they were secretly dating for at least 8 years (possibly longer).  I really wish Frank had been allowed to live happily ever after, but I guess that if he had lived, Claire would not have been able to tell Brianna about her biological father.  

On a related note, they mentioned this in the episode discussion.  Will put it in spoilers since some people may not want to get info outside of the episode.

Spoiler

Matthew Roberts mentioned that Tobias Menzies has wrapped up his role in the series.  I guess that his comment ends the debate about whether BJR died at Culloden.  Apparently, he did!

 

I'm glad Claire finally admitted she had loved Frank, but I wish she had said so while he was alive.  I agree that it was a jerk move to skip Claire's graduation dinner to hook up with his girlfriend, but Claire's anger was about her pride, not any sort of jealousy or love.  Claire has been a little unlikable this season, but that last scene with Frank brought her back for me.

I feel like zooming through her med school and residency years was a little bit of a waste though.  And they introduced her black classmate Joe Abernathy and didn't really do anything with him and their friendship.  Missed opportunity IMO and I hope they do something in future episodes.

I love the new character John William Grey.   Although he has grown up a lot since we last saw him, he seems to have remained honorable and decent.  I  liked that he refused to murder an unarmed prisoner. (BTW, the actor is very talented and handsome too.  I need to find out what else he's done.  For some reason, he's not listed in Outlander's IMDB entry for this episode.)  And I really  do believe that he would have improved prison conditions.  I wonder why he was exiled to this gloomy prison.  I hope we'll find out.  

I thought the development of his friendship with Jamie was well done too, despite being done during the course of just one episode.  When Jamie escaped from prison, my immediate reaction was that he had betrayed John Grey's trust in him.   It's amazing how quickly John won my sympathy--I thought of his honor before Jamie's freedom. But, of course, a prisoner would want to escape, regardless of how well he was being treated.   I'm glad we learned the truth about why he escaped and I'm glad he didn't really betray John.

By the way, is it just me or are the Englishmen disproportionately gay in this series?  John Grey, Duke of Sandringham, and BJR.  (BJR has had sex with men and women in the show --or has at least tried to.  However, he seems to desire Jamie but use sex as a power tool with Claire and Jenny, so I think he's gay, not bisexual.)  Whereas, I don't believe any of the Scots have been gay.  Is there a reason for that?  Anyway, John's story of his lost love was unexpected but moving.   The inability to say a final goodbye  worked well for an episode that also saw the death of Frank Randall.  Claire was able to have a final goodbye, but not to tell Frank what he needed to hear while he was still alive.  I'm glad that Jamie responded with anger at John's pass.  Even though there was a rapport between the 2 men, the touch would have generated an automatic response from the rape trauma.  Glad they didn't gloss that over.  It was a little strange that John made the pass right after hearing that Jamie really loved his wife.  Surely that would scream "he's not gay", but perhaps he was attracted by Jamie's vulnerability.

I do wish we had a better sense of the passage of time in Jamie's storyline.  We got it in Claire's part due to the aging of Brianna, but I couldn't tell if Jamie was meant to have spent months or years in prison.

Glad to see Murtagh survived Culloden, but was sad to see him separated again from Jamie.  Did I hear correctly that the prisoners were being shipped off to America or was that my imagination?  Murtagh literally clinging to a shred of his heritage in the form of his tartan really made me cry.  Amazing how a character with a couple minutes of screen time can make an impact.

I really wish I could just binge the whole season!

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

19 minutes ago, nara said:

 I need to find out what else he's done.  For some reason, he's not listed in Outlander's IMDB entry for this episode.)

He's David Berry, an Australian actor. I haven't seen it, but I've seen him get praise for an Australian show called A Place to Call Home. The only other thing I seen him in is an episode of Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries. He seems to have only done (or mostly done) Australian shows before this. I saw an article recently that said he almost turned down Lord John Grey because his wife was due to give birth soon, but his mother-in-law encouraged him to take it. He made it home in time for the birth too!

 

21 minutes ago, nara said:

I do wish we had a better sense of the passage of time in Jamie's storyline.  We got it in Claire's part due to the aging of Brianna, but I couldn't tell if Jamie was meant to have spent months or years in prison.

Years. Last episode said 1752 in Scotland and this one said 1755. So it's been about 10 years since Culloden, 6-7 years in a cave and 3-4 years in prison.

 

23 minutes ago, nara said:

 Did I hear correctly that the prisoners were being shipped off to America or was that my imagination?

Yea, I heard being shipped to the colonies. I can't remember if they said American colonies. (I watched at 11 pm, so I was a bit sleepy)

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Rilla-my-Rilla said:

Yea, I heard being shipped to the colonies. I can't remember if they said American colonies. (I watched at 11 pm, so I was a bit sleepy)

It is the American Colonies. In the years after Culloden, many of the surviving prisoners were transported to the Colonies as indentured servants and not allowed to return to Scotland in fear that they would start another rebellion. 

[Glade]

This episode made (the Scottish scenes...) me so happy! I fell in love with John Grey and his chemistry with Jaime throughout all their scenes was fascinating to watch. Finally a positive gay character on Outlander, who's not a Machiavellian villain like Sandringham, and though a redcoat he's not a sadistic predator like BJR (who I don't see as gay, straight, bisexual or a pedophile but just a predatory rapist who got off on torturing and dominating people but never discriminated between men, women, and children.) I definitely missed that deleted scene Ron Moore talked about where we actually would have seen John Grey with his lover at Culloden. I really thought they were going with Berry's naturally dark hair, but then I saw that John Grey's ponytail sticking out of his hat was actually blonde...hopefully if he ever takes his hat off the wig will look better/more convincing then that. Either way, I hope we see a whole lot more of Lord John!  And maybe I'd be in for a spinoff miniseries about those Lord John books that I know nothing at all about.

When they brought up the white witch who was looking for a Makenzie, my first thought was Gellis Duncan? But surely Jaime would have saw fit to mention that to Murtaugh? I admit I had difficulty recognizing Murtaugh for a moment--the grey beard and sooted face threw me, but it's so sad that now he's off to an American penal colony.

And I am glad that Frank/BJR are now gone for good. It was very real and complex how Frank and Claire trapped themselves and each other in a unworkable marriage; not really happy, but still clinging to each other nonetheless. I still blame Frank for making Claire agree to never talk about Jaime or try to find out what happened to him; and no, Jaime was never comparable, since he even encouraged Claire that it was ok to talk about Frank with him in S1 and selflessly gave her the chance to return to him twice. I found the scenes where they tried to age down Bree's adult actress kind of ridiculous, but we got a lot of insight into the family dynamic that she grew up in.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I tend to watch and write down thoughts as I go.  So here goes: Ep 2 ended, what?  1949-ish in Claire's time?  I don't think Bree was a year old.  Claire was gone 3 years, that puts her being back in the 20th century in 1948.  9 months of pregnancy (not all in the 20th century) and Bree was rolling over - I can't remember how old babies are when they do that, only a few months right?  Anyway, at the most, 1950.  Then this one starts 1956.  And Claire in still in school?  Okay, 10 year plan then.  

So Claire and Frank have an 'open' marriage?  How progressive of them.  Claire looked upset at confirmation that Frank was seeking outside company.  Well, sister, too bad.  

Poor Jamie - if those chains haven't been off since he's been in prison, he's got to have some serious chafing around his wrists and ankles.  Murtaugh!  Oh, Murtaugh.  Show, don't kill him off now.  

Awkward with the girlfriend showing up at Claire's graduation party.  I understand - and I think Claire has a right to be upset about that.  But not about Frank having a girlfriend, I don't think.  And why was the show seemingly trying to make me feel sorry for the girl with the way she was hanging her head.  If there is anyone in a martial affair with whom I have absolutely no sympathy, it is the third party who knowingly gets involved with a married person.  Frank's right about the courts giving custody to the mothers back in the day.  I really don't understand what Claire is so upset about that Frank doesn't want a divorce - except that she was humiliated.  Well, boo-hoo.  How does she think Frank felt when she showed up pregnant with another man's child after missing for three years?   I've got precious little sympathy for Claire in this timeline.  Pity, because I did feel sorry for her in the 18th century.   Funny though, Frank saying that Claire wasn't fooling anyone, yet she obviously fool Brianna all those years.  

Jamie saying "there's nothing you can do to me that hasn't already been done" is heartbreaking anew.  So Murtaugh knows about Claire and the stones.  Interesting.  Day-um - Jamie and Lord Grey.  That was a superb scene.  Jamie and William playing chess was great also - where Jamie told him that it was his wife who's honor the young boy thought he was saving.  Nice reaction to that bit of information by William - not bitterness or anger, but humor and admiration for a skilled opponent.  Perfect, in character reaction by Jamie to William caressing his hand, I thought.  

I don't know why Claire was so shaken about Frank asking for a divorce after Brianna was already 18.  After their conversation "years ago" that made it clear Frank was only sticking around for the kid, she should have seen it coming.  I still think Claire had no right to the "how dare you."  Lady wants her cake and to eat it too.  And why shouldn't Frank finally marry someone who wants to be with him?  For him.  Not just for security or for a another man's child's sake, or a promise to another man.  I don't think Frank's in the wrong for that.  And what the heck is with Claire going off on Frank like that?  Brianna is 18 now.  A legal adult.  She can where and with whom she wants, Claire.  Deal with it.  And thank you for Frank reminding Claire that she never did - nor can - forget Jamie.  

So Jamie is the ONLY prisoner not sent off to "the colonies"?  How convenient for the plot, I'm sure.  Oh sh*t.  Looks like Jamie is going to Biltmore House.   I like Lord Grey.  I hope we see more of him.  

What the hell?  Frank died before he ever got to be happy?  That sucks for him.  All those years in a loveless marriage so Claire could become a doctor so she's a better 'healer' (no doubt) when she goes back to Jamie.  Frank really deserved better.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So Jamie's going to work at Downton Abbey now?

As I said, I thought it looked like Biltmore House.  But it's more probable they used a shot of the Downton Abbey house/set (which I've never watched) rather than Biltmore.  

7 hours ago, nara said:

1. Frank's story was incredibly sad. He has been straightforward and true to his commitment to raising Brianna.  His devotion to the child is really quite moving.  And I think he's right that Brianna would have gone with him to England.  However, being in an unhappy marriage is terrible, and I'm glad that he was able to date.  Sandy must have really loved him too because they were secretly dating for at least 8 years (possibly longer).  I really wish Frank had been allowed to live happily ever after, but I guess that if he had lived, Claire would not have been able to tell Brianna about her biological father.  

2. I'm glad Claire finally admitted she had loved Frank, but I wish she had said so while he was alive.  I agree that it was a jerk move to skip Claire's graduation dinner to hook up with his girlfriend, but Claire's anger was about her pride, not any sort of jealousy or love.  Claire has been a little unlikable this season, but that last scene with Frank brought her back for me.

3. I feel like zooming through her med school and residency years was a little bit of a waste though.  And they introduced her black classmate Joe Abernathy and didn't really do anything with him and their friendship.  Missed opportunity IMO and I hope they do something in future episodes.

 4. It was a little strange that John made the pass right after hearing that Jamie really loved his wife.  Surely that would scream "he's not gay", but perhaps he was attracted by Jamie's vulnerability.

5. I really wish I could just binge the whole season!

1.  Good point about Sandy really loving Frank.   I didn't really think about that, but you're right - that to stick with him all those years she must have truly loved him.

2. I thought that Claire saying she really loved Frank was too little too late - or maybe just in a past tense, like before she went Back To The Past.  I don't feel like Claire truly loved Frank since she came back through the stones at all.  And I still don't really like her much.  I hope the next episode will remedy some of that

3. I agree about Joe and Claire's med school/residency years.  Maybe they'll show some things in flashbacks later?  But I'd have rather had them now.

4. Seriously on that.  No homosexual person I know would have made a pass a someone who'd just declared their unarguable heterosexuality.  But maybe it was different back then.  And by that, I mean, since things weren't as 'open' and the gay community not so established, it wasn't so well 'known' that was a futile move.  

5. Right? :)

5 hours ago, Glade said:

1. This episode made (the Scottish scenes...) me so happy! 

2. When they brought up the white witch who was looking for a Makenzie, my first thought was Gellis Duncan? But surely Jaime would have saw fit to mention that to Murtaugh? I admit I had difficulty recognizing Murtaugh for a moment--the grey beard and sooted face threw me, but it's so sad that now he's off to an American penal colony.

3. And I am glad that Frank/BJR are now gone for good. It was very real and complex how Frank and Claire trapped themselves and each other in a unworkable marriage; not really happy, but still clinging to each other nonetheless. I still blame Frank for making Claire agree to never talk about Jaime or try to find out what happened to him; and no, Jaime was never comparable, since he even encouraged Claire that it was ok to talk about Frank with him in S1 and selflessly gave her the chance to return to him twice.

1. I think the scottish scenes were so much more intersting than the 20th century scenes!   But maybe that's because I thought Claire was a pretty unsympathetic character, whereas Jamie was a sympathetic character. 

2. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who had a hard time recognizing Murtaugh!  And I first thought about Gellis also - especially with the mention of Dougal.  I'm surprised that didn't come up  

3. I don't blame Frank at all for Claire's distance during their marriage.  That's all on Claire.  And Jamie only encouraged Claire to talk about Frank when he thought Frank was dead (in the 18th century).  He didn't seem to like her bringing him up so much in Season 2.  

[NorthstarATL]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Seriously on that.  No homosexual person I know would have made a pass a someone who'd just declared their unarguable heterosexuality.  But maybe it was different back then.  And by that, I mean, since things weren't as 'open' and the gay community not so established, it wasn't so well 'known' that was a futile move.  

Jamie had only really said that he loved Claire, though, and that she had been his wife. He didn't marry after, which, as was pointed out last episode, would be odd for a strictly heterosexual guy. And a LOT of homosexuality is situational, especially in and around prisons, historically, so it wouldn't be that much of a chance that Grey was taking. Grey was decent enough not to force the issue, and he was in a position where, had he been someone else, he might have done. (Interestingly, Berry's APTCH character worked out a marriage-for-show as a gay character in another period for the few seasons I saw of that series. He's very attractive!)

  I was irritated with Frank from the first scene with the proposed cinema outing. Maybe it's the actor, but he seemed to relish the chance to bring up Claire's "time abroad" by saying he'd already seen both films. I don't know enough about how things were back then, but was it NOT inconceivable to see a movie a second time in order to have some bonding time with one's family? (Okay, maybe not "Carousel", but I had to watch "The Searchers" for Film & Filmmaking.) And then, when I thought the shock on Claire and Sandy's faces were due to some time travel thing where they had crossed paths, it turned out that she was Frank's sidepiece! She was not very good at being the other woman, though, was she? Where did she get off acting all put out by Claire having a get together in HER home? That bugged me as well.

 Still, I was sad for Claire that Frank had died, though I found it hard to be sad for him.

 I guess next week, we're out of the frying pan and into the fire? Because there is no way Jamie's just going to be a happy downstairs guy. Right?

[ganesh]

17 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Wow, they covered a lot of time in Claire's story this week.

I thought at the end of the last episode that Claire getting her MD in the 1950s with an African-American friend would be interesting, and then that was done 5 minutes into this episode. I mean, we all know that there's a reunion, but I would like it to be earned at least. The daughter at this point is a prop and now she's 18 and that's where we are. Dragging it out over the whole season I get isn't feasible, but we got next to nothing over Claire's new life. And again, Frank gets short shrift. Sure, yes, don't have your gf show up at the house, but he honestly thought that everyone was going to have left by then. It's a mistake, but I didn't think he was shoving it on Claire. Apparently, Frank raised a child not his own, we see nothing of that, and then he dies in a car accident. This season is essentially fan fiction. Not to mention that a woman in the 1950s becomes an MD. No, there's nothing interesting there, skip that. 

7 hours ago, Glade said:

When they brought up the white witch who was looking for a Makenzie, my first thought was Gellis Duncan?

I thought it was Claire. Given the timey-whimey of this season, in this episode, my take was that Claire was back already, and has been for quite a while. 

9 hours ago, nara said:

By the way, is it just me or are the Englishmen disproportionately gay in this series?

Disproportionately gay was the name of my garage punk band in high school.
But seriously, the new governor made a point to say several times that he understood that Jamie had an "arrangement". Maybe he thought that meant providing sexual service. I thought Jamie was a little hostile in his refusal, like you don't need to tell someone you're going to kill them for hitting on you, but BJR, and I think Jamie is suffering from PTSD, so that was fair. 

I guess I'm glad that the show didn't make Frank into some reprehensible abusive husband for the sake of promoting Jamie, but on the other hand, they didn't really put in much effort to growing his character either. I would have liked some insight into his relationship with his daughter. I'm thoroughly confused at the narrative direction this season. Actually, no. I am very interested in a woman who is genuinely in love with two men and has married both, in this case separated by time, but this show isn't exploring that. It's really a missed opportunity.

[Daisy]

It was only in here that I realised that John Gray (Grey?) is Gay. I am sick so my brain isn't firing on all thrusters, but I was like. Wait, you're gonna kill John for being nice to you? Then it was oohhh (facepalm). I do like the idea of Jaime working at Downton Abbey. And Murtagh! Yay! but now he has to work in Virginia or something. 

 

I know that Claire gets a lot of the "well too bad so sads" but Truthfully, I wonder how better it would have been for Claire had she been able to talk about Jaime, and properly mourn him and get over him. This was slightly brought up last week when Claire goes "I want to become an American" and Frank shoots that down so fast. The deal was Frank raises Bree as his - and Claire basically can not mention x amount of years of her life that was more full of .. well stuff than her life with Frank. And I just feel that had been able to properly mourn and talk about Jaime, that this would have been so much better.  I also wonder if it would have been better for everyone if Claire did raise Bree with knowledge of Jaime but pump up how much Frank loved her (coz he did)

I think i said this in episode one - i feel for both - but I don't feel for both at the same time because this is the bed they chose. I do think Frank was scuzzy-ish. I do think Claire tried to do her best to love him - but that wasn't enough for Frank (that's fair), she offers a divorce and he's like no because he won't see Bree. Claire says she'd never take her away from Frank and frank is like how can i trust that. Claire never broke a promise to Frank. why would she take Brianna away from Frank like that, only to basically sit there and be miserable with Sandy until Bree was 18. 

 

I dunno it just bugged. 

 

i am really enjoying this season (but to be fair i enjoy all the season)

 

bye bye Murtagh :(

[Glade]

2 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

  I was irritated with Frank from the first scene with the proposed cinema outing. Maybe it's the actor, but he seemed to relish the chance to bring up Claire's "time abroad" by saying he'd already seen both films. I don't know enough about how things were back then, but was it NOT inconceivable to see a movie a second time in order to have some bonding time with one's family? (Okay, maybe not "Carousel", but I had to watch "The Searchers" for Film & Filmmaking.)

I think Frank was telling her that he'd gone to see these films on his recent dates with other women (or just Sandy, as it later turned out) hence why he followed that statement by pointing out how discrete he's been about it.  Either way it was pretty passive aggressive and unfriendly.

[Chyna]

My hearing isn't always the best so sometimes I have a little trouble understanding the characters in the Scotland flashbacks, so forgive me if this was obvious to everyone else: Why did Jamie return to the prison after escaping during the hunting party?

[nara]

7 hours ago, Daisy said:

I think i said this in episode one - i feel for both - but I don't feel for both at the same time because this is the bed they chose. I do think Frank was scuzzy-ish. I do think Claire tried to do her best to love him - but that wasn't enough for Frank (that's fair), she offers a divorce and he's like no because he won't see Bree. Claire says she'd never take her away from Frank and frank is like how can i trust that. Claire never broke a promise to Frank. why would she take Brianna away from Frank like that, only to basically sit there and be miserable with Sandy until Bree was 18. 

 

She might not intentionally take the child away, but if there are living in different homes, he would automatically see less of her.  It's a tough situation even in today's world where we have facetime and skype to help people stay in touch.

Just now, Chyna said:

My hearing isn't always the best so sometimes I have a little trouble understanding the characters in the Scotland flashbacks, so forgive me if this was obvious to everyone else: Why did Jamie return to the prison after escaping during the hunting party?

After hearing the story about the white witch on the island having some connection to BPC's treasure, he wanted to go look and see if it was Claire.  He escaped just for that reason and came back when he found no evidence of Claire.  In fact, he was unhappy enough that he wanted to be killed and asked John Grey to do so.

[Daisy]

2 minutes ago, Chyna said:

My hearing isn't always the best so sometimes I have a little trouble understanding the characters in the Scotland flashbacks, so forgive me if this was obvious to everyone else: Why did Jamie return to the prison after escaping during the hunting party?

 

I think to keep his word? (also, i imagine, to keep the Redcoats away from Lallybrock?) I think he really just wanted to see if that dying guy knew or saw Claire (like she found a way to get back to Jamie). 
 

1 minute ago, nara said:

She might not intentionally take the child away, but if there are living in different homes, he would automatically see less of her.  It's a tough situation even in today's world where we have facetime and skype to help people stay in touch.

 

This is true.  It just sounded more of like. "you will run away and i'll never see Bree" again vs. them working together to come up with a great compromise. 

[Chyna]

9 minutes ago, nara said:

After hearing the story about the white witch on the island having some connection to BPC's treasure, he wanted to go look and see if it was Claire.  He escaped just for that reason and came back when he found no evidence of Claire.  In fact, he was unhappy enough that he wanted to be killed and asked John Grey to do so.

Thanks, @nara!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 hours ago, ganesh said:

I thought at the end of the last episode that Claire getting her MD in the 1950s with an African-American friend would be interesting, and then that was done 5 minutes into this episode. I mean, we all know that there's a reunion, but I would like it to be earned at least. The daughter at this point is a prop and now she's 18 and that's where we are. Dragging it out over the whole season I get isn't feasible, but we got next to nothing over Claire's new life. And again, Frank gets short shrift. Sure, yes, don't have your gf show up at the house, but he honestly thought that everyone was going to have left by then. It's a mistake, but I didn't think he was shoving it on Claire. Apparently, Frank raised a child not his own, we see nothing of that, and then he dies in a car accident. This season is essentially fan fiction. Not to mention that a woman in the 1950s becomes an MD. No, there's nothing interesting there, skip that. 

I was thinking about this just this morning!  And I couldn't agree more with what you said.  Episode two had SO much misogyny - from Frank's boss toward Claire and then her first Med school professor.  Then suddenly it's all gone this episode.  Claire is "Dr. Randall" and having a graduation party in her house (attended by a black man in the 1950's - no matter that he was also a Dr. - "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?" anyone?) and NONE of that is addressed.  I know he's only a side character, but I would have liked to have seen more of the struggles and racism Joe surely faced in that time period - even into the 60's when Brianna graduated.  But Nope.  The only thing that mattered was that Claire was humiliated in front of her colleagues cause Frank's mistress showed up early. We're supposed to feel sorry for Claire, (so we can see what a Jerk Frank turned out to be so we can't wait for her to get back to Perfect Jamie) but never mind how Claire humiliated Frank in front of his new colleagues last episode.  (But that was okay, because they were all misogynist pigs.)  

I wonder if those who dislike Frank so much would have as much antipathy for Claire were their stories reversed.  What if Frank had been the one who disappeared through the stones for three years and comes home (Game of Thrones style) with a child by another woman who 'died in childbirth'.  (But not really.  Frank thought his PastWife died but unbeknownst to him, she survived.)  And there was Claire - left behind and suspected of killing the husband she dearly loved - who takes her husband back because she still loves him although he only does it because he needs a mother for his child - and raises that child as her own and thinks, maybe eventually, Frank would love her again because he had loved her in the past.  But Frank never forgot his 'true love' and it's obvious because he's cold toward Claire, barely touches her, and the few times they have sex he's thinking about the wife he left behind.  So Claire, lonely and starved for real affection, meets someone who truly cares about her and starts having a discreet affair.  

The husband having an affair because his wife is cold to him is an unsympathetic cad.  But the wife having an affair for the same reason would likely get a pass.  

9 hours ago, Daisy said:

Claire never broke a promise to Frank.

Sure she did.  She promised to leave the past in the past.  I thought it was made clear in that final scene between Frank and Claire that every time she looks at Brianna, Claire thinks of Jamie.  So she obviously didn't keep that promise.  

You might be right about if Claire had been able to talk about Jamie and properly mourn him, it would have helped her move on.  But I think we're supposed to believe that nothing would have been enough for Claire to move on from Jamie, just as nothing was ever enough for Jamie to move on from Claire.  

[terrymct]

Poor Frank.  He finally gets a chance for real happiness and away from Claire's tormenting of him and he dies.  The graduation party scene where his girlfriend showed up didn’t ring true to me.  He was smart and careful.  It seems like a particularly bonehead thing to do, especially if he was actually afraid he could lose visitation rights.

Claire is a nasty piece of work.  It was her malfunction that resulted in the distance between she and Frank.  She agreed to the discreet “open marriage” then she’s angry at him.  Frank's only real sin was that he’s not Jamie and she made him paid for that in spades.  How did she get to go to medical school?  Frank was working so he must have paid the bills and he raised Claire's daughter as his own when Claire wouldn’t.  Why?  Because she looks like Jamie?  Claire is horrible, selfish and self absorbed. 

I was glad to see Gray portrayed as a closeted gay man who is a decent soul.  It’s a refreshing change from the previous stereotypes in the show.  

[WatchrTina]

10 hours ago, Daisy said:

Claire never broke a promise to Frank.

I wondered about that line in the episode too but I think that, as far as Frank is concerned, she did break a promise -- a couple of them.  First she broke her marriage vows by falling in love with another man.  Then, when they agreed to raise the unborn baby together, it was agreed that she would stop looking for evidence of Jamie and that she would "let him go".  Those exact words may have not have been spoken but it's clear from what they say to each other when Bree is born that Frank has an expectation that they will "start over" and move past the effects of their 3-year separation.  But Claire just can't do it. She never lets Jamie go.  She can't look at Frank during sex -- when she finally allows him to touch her without flinching away. She never stops thinking of Jamie and that, from Frank's point of view, breaks the promise she made to him -- both when they reunited and when Bree was born.  That broken promise -- her continued longing for Jamie -- hangs like a pall over their entire relationship.  

Edited September 25, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Daisy]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sure she did.  She promised to leave the past in the past.  I thought it was made clear in that final scene between Frank and Claire that every time she looks at Brianna, Claire thinks of Jamie.  So she obviously didn't keep that promise.  

You might be right about if Claire had been able to talk about Jamie and properly mourn him, it would have helped her move on.  But I think we're supposed to believe that nothing would have been enough for Claire to move on from Jamie, just as nothing was ever enough for Jamie to move on from Claire.  

True - but I think though that's where my point comes back - maybe if Frank had not had been so door closed to everything (which - was his right, don't get me wrong here) she would have been able to. That's what's really tragic, and frustrating about this for both of them. I get why Frank acted the way he did. I would probably act the way he did. (no. def. would. I would def. act that way).  I don't know if i would keep throwing the fact that her "time abroad" was something akin to a trip Disney World or something. but i can see the resentment. But it's pretty hard to forget something if you don't have the chance to work through things. it will just fester. (which  - we saw with that marriage). I think i would have been more. Yah, Frank! had Claire honestly been given a chance to grieve, mourn, and then close the door behind them, until he realised she couldn't. 

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I wondered about that line in the episode too but I think that, as far as Frank is concerned, she did break a promise -- a couple of them.  First she broke her marriage vows by falling in love with another man.  Then, when they agreed to raise the unborn baby together, it was agreed that she would stop looking for evidence of Jamie and that she would "let him go".  Those exact words may have not have been spoken but it's clear from what they say to each other when Bree is born that Frank has an expectation that they will "start over" and move past the effects of their 3-year separation.  But Claire just can't do it. She never lets Jamie go.  She can't look at Frank during sex -- when she finally allows him to touch her without flinching away. She never stops thinking of Jamie and that, from Frank's point of view, breaks the promise she made to him -- both when they reunited and when Bree was born.  That broken promise -- her continued longing for Jamie -- hangs like a pall over their entire relationship.  

Hmm. (and see. this is why i love this season). because it's so shades of grey-ish.. because I can see for Claire - she did. to the letter of the law. 
Just not the spirit. 
and I never really got the idea that Frank let it go either. always at the back of his mind. 

 

[Mrs. Hanson]

13 hours ago, Glade said:

I think Frank was telling her that he'd gone to see these films on his recent dates with other women (or just Sandy, as it later turned out) hence why he followed that statement by pointing out how discrete he's been about it.  Either way it was pretty passive aggressive and unfriendly.

As soon as Frank said "I have seen them" I was like "Oh you did NOT see them with some chippy!"  Yep, he did.   Couldn't you just say you don't want to see them?    When he started in saying he was taking Bree to England I was like oh hell to the no on that, brother.  And Claire told him as much!

I am the odd man out with the scenes from current day:  I liked them better than Jamie's scenes.  A lot of plot got moved forward in the Boston scenes.  Frank was really a dick about Bree's graduation dinner!  Go meet your side order at another cafe!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

Couldn't you just say you don't want to see them?

He probably should have said that.  But the show had to let us know somehow - through this awkward bit of dialogue that things weren't as rosy in the Randall marriage as the first few moments of that scene would make it seem.

6 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

When he started in saying he was taking Bree to England I was like oh hell to the no on that, brother.  And Claire told him as much!

To be fair - Brianna was 18 already when Frank talked about her going to England with him.  So even if Claire had said no on that, brother, she couldn't have stopped her from going if she'd wanted to.  And based on the way Brianna seemed to idolize Frank in S2, I think she would have gone.  In fact, maybe that's why she and Claire were there last season?  Claire was keeping a promise for Frank.  I think that would be nice if it turns out that's why Claire went back to England and Scotland after all.  Not just to look up Jamie now that Frank's out of the way.

9 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

Frank was really a dick about Bree's graduation dinner!

Actually, that was Claire's graduation from Med school dinner.  Not Brianna's graduation dinner.  

[Mrs. Hanson]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Actually, that was Claire's graduation from Med school dinner.  Not Brianna's graduation dinner.  

D-oh!  I knew that!!  Thanks for the catch.  

 

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And based on the way Brianna seemed to idolize Frank in S2, I think she would have gone.  

Maybe that is why Claire reacted as strongly as she did?  She knew they were close?  Maybe she was resentful of their bond?  Thinkning that bond should be with Jamie?  Why am I still thinking about this?  LOL!

[Hyla]

I read the movie invitation over breakfast scene as Frank gently reminding Claire that they haven't been the kind of couple who sees movies together for years and he's been stepping out and doing that kind of thing with other ladies at her request. The way the actor portrays Frank is so charming and sweet it's difficult to see the bitterness and passive aggressiveness unless it's blatant.

Which it was with the threat of taking Bree to England and removing her from the life Claire had built for herself in Boston. What a revenge! He really was playing a long game there, waiting it out for Bree to be of legal age so Claire has no say in the matter and throwing out you haven't been a decent mother with all your med school and work that takes you away from home!

It was an abrupt, sad end for him. I wish he had divorced and married Sandy years ago and been happy with visitation rights to Brianna. He and Claire stuck it out for so long being so miserable together!

I was actually expecting a dramatic death scene for Frank (have to utilize the actor!) Where he would die of a heart attack and have a last interaction with Claire. I know the theme of the episode was unsaid goodbyes, but that was such a sterile, final scene at the hospital for Claire to walk into.

With Frank made out to be so sympathetic and having been so unhappy for so long it's rather guilt inducing to be happy Claire is finally free and can start her journey to reclaim her one true love.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

Maybe that is why Claire reacted as strongly as she did?  She knew they were close?  Maybe she was resentful of their bond?  Thinkning that bond should be with Jamie? 

That's an interesting thought.  I hadn't considered that.  Hm...

8 minutes ago, Hyla said:

I was actually expecting a dramatic death scene for Frank (have to utilize the actor!) Where he would die of a heart attack and have a last interaction with Claire.

Me too.  I just thought of something - didn't Claire's parents die in a car accident also?

[nara]

55 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

I am the odd man out with the scenes from current day:  I liked them better than Jamie's scenes.  A lot of plot got moved forward in the Boston scenes.  Frank was really a dick about Bree's graduation dinner!  Go meet your side order at another cafe!

In all fairness, Sandy was only picking Frank up at the house because Claire was taking the car.  However, when the doorbell rang, he should have rushed to answer it.  He must have known she was arriving soon.  Plus, if you are going to have an affair with a married man, you really ought to be better at lying that Sandy was.  "Hi. I'm looking for the Smith residence.  Oh, this is not it?  My mistake."

Unrelated, but do we believe that John Grey was sent to this godforsaken prison because it's known that he's gay?  It didn't seem to stop what appears to be a rapid promotion process in the past 6 years but perhaps it has been recently discovered?

Also, I wanted to share this quote from the  New York Times that made me LOL.  "Grey has fulfilled his “Outlander” contractual obligation to grow up handsome, and as played by David Berry, gives Jamie a worthy foil."

[Cocogurl]

Honestly, I lost some of my sympathy for Frank in this episode. I feel like a lot of his behaviors were passive aggressive attempts to get back at Claire, which is just petty considering she offered him an out and he chose not to take it. And his decision to take Bree away from Claire was like his ultimate vengeance on her. I just lost a lot of respect for him in that scene.

 

Also, can someone give Sam an Emmy?! He is killing it this season.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I don't understand how Frank could possibly "take Bree away from Claire" when Bree was 18 - an adult - and could go wherever she pleased at that point. 

[Glade]

Personally I do think if Bree found out that Frank had been seeing a mistress for nearly her entire life, some of that idolization would have swiftly fallen away. 

[Cocogurl]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand how Frank could possibly "take Bree away from Claire" when Bree was 18 - an adult - and could go wherever she pleased at that point. 

He couldn't take her away in the literal sense, but he knows that he's got a close bond with Bree, so he's confident that if it really came down to a choice, she would choose him over Claire. So, in that sense, he could take Bree away and Claire would have no say in the matter.

[Hyla]

3 hours ago, Pegasaurus said:

It was unrealistic for Frank to ask that of Claire. She never should have made that promise to Frank.

How could one just go back to daily life as if nothing happened?  I think the experience Claire had would change a person forever.

This! Frank expected Claire to get over her experience and come back to him as she was before her disappearance and to love him the same way. Frank is book smart, but he's not perceptive about how people work and he doesn't credit Claire for surviving a life-shattering experience or show much interest in getting to know the person she's become.  

As other posters have said, if Claire didn't have to bury and deny her own experiences and could have been honest with Frank and their daughter they could have all shared a happier home life.

1 hour ago, Cocogurl said:

He couldn't take her away in the literal sense, but he knows that he's got a close bond with Bree, so he's confident that if it really came down to a choice, she would choose him over Claire. So, in that sense, he could take Bree away and Claire would have no say in the matter.

How awful if his motivation was spite and he'd been planning that move a long time.

The show went so quickly through Brianna's childhood and the breakfast and camera scene only did so much to illustrate her relationship to her parents. Was Claire absent a lot and did Frank step in and help out with homework and bedtime stories and such? Did he and Bree go places together and have a special bond? Did he make it clear to Brianna how long suffering he was and how disappointed he was with her mother so that Bree would feel closer and more loyal to him? 

If Bree went with Frank to England her dad would get her into Oxford and support her and possibly encourage her to settle down there. Claire's worked so hard to make a life for herself in Boston and intentionally leave England behind it would be a huge blow for her to lose access to her daughter so soon and with Bree being 18 she wouldn't be able to prevent it.

I'm not surprised she was angry in that scene. It really was low of Frank to want to take Brianna away from her. He should have filed for divorce years before instead of wallowing in resentment. 

[ganesh]

19 minutes ago, Hyla said:

The show went so quickly through Brianna's childhood and the breakfast and camera scene only did so much to illustrate her relationship to her parents. Was Claire absent a lot and did Frank step in and help out with homework and bedtime stories and such? Did he and Bree go places together and have a special bond? Did he make it clear to Brianna how long suffering he was and how disappointed he was with her mother so that Bree would feel closer and more loyal to him?

All interesting questions that I thought we'd have at least one episode to see. 

Who paid for Claire's medical school?

Edited September 26, 2017 by ganesh

[nara]

5 minutes ago, Hyla said:

This! Frank expected Claire to get over her experience and come back to him as she was before her disappearance and to love him the same way. Frank is book smart, but he's not perceptive about how people work and he doesn't credit Claire for surviving a life-shattering experience or show much interest in getting to know the person she's become.  

As other posters have said, if Claire didn't have to bury and deny her own experiences and could have been honest with Frank and their daughter they could have all shared a happier home life.

How awful if his motivation was spite and he'd been planning that move a long time.

The show went so quickly through Brianna's childhood and the breakfast and camera scene only did so much to illustrate her relationship to her parents. Was Claire absent a lot and did Frank step in and help out with homework and bedtime stories and such? Did he and Bree go places together and have a special bond? Did he make it clear to Brianna how long suffering he was and how disappointed he was with her mother so that Bree would feel closer and more loyal to him? 

If Bree went with Frank to England her dad would get her into Oxford and support her and possibly encourage her to settle down there. Claire's worked so hard to make a life for herself in Boston and intentionally leave England behind it would be a huge blow for her to lose access to her daughter so soon and with Bree being 18 she wouldn't be able to prevent it.

I'm not surprised she was angry in that scene. It really was low of Frank to want to take Brianna away from her. He should have filed for divorce years before instead of wallowing in resentment. 

I think that part of the reason Frank expected Claire to get over it was that he knew they had been happily married and in love before she disappeared.  I imagine it would be hard for him to understand why she wouldn't go back to that feeling in time.  (Honestly, I also had a hard time believing that, even though I love Jamie/Claire.) From Frank's perspective, Claire treated him as "out of sight, out of mind" when she was in the 18th century, so surely she could be the same way with Jamie now that she was back in the 20th century.

I didn't get the impression that he was trying to spiteful and take Brianna away.  He has always wanted to stay connected to England and wanted Brianna to be an English girl (e.g., his complaints about tea bags and pop tarts and objection to Claire taking US citizenship).   Frank is a historian and would naturally have a stornger bond to England than another person might. He wanted to go home and saw this also as an opportunity to take Brianna to England and absorb that culture .  However, he  was also a product of his time and saw the time Claire spent in med school and residency as caring less about her family than he did, which is not fair.  He probably got some pleasure (malicious or not) in knowing that Brianna was "daddy's girl" but that doesn't make him any different from most of the parents I know.

BTW, on my belated rewatch of Season 2, I saw that Willie got married and moved to America.  I like to think that he met/meets (the verb tenses of time travel are confusing) up again with Murtagh.   

[SoTheresThat]

50 minutes ago, ganesh said:

All interesting questions that I thought we'd have at least one episode to see. 

Who paid for Claire's medical school?

Maybe Frank's employee benefits included free tuition for immediate family members.

[WInterfalls]

So here's the thing I think Claire had every right to be furious with Frank in that final fight they had.  Frank insisted they move to America for a fresh start.  Ok fine I get that. Claire attempts to make time to do things together like go to a movie because it's one of the few nights she isn't in class or has a ton of studying to do. Then Frank says no he's already seen those movies with a side piece but don't worry he's being discreet. Which OK they had an agreement, but his response seemed unnecessarily passive aggressive to me.  The thing that gets me is Claire says why don't they just get divorced and he says "no I'll never see Brianna", and Claire's response is "I would never keep her from you". Now whether you believe her or not that is where she is and she's not lying about it.  When he comes back to her after Brianna is 18 his opening statement is he's taking Brianna away.  When she argues his response isn't that I don't want to keep her from you it's "She won't even notice". Claire is right he has calculated and waited for the clock to run out so that he can separate Brianna and Claire. He didn't say we are getting a divorce and Brianna will live with me in another part of the city he's taking her across the ocean where their contact would be minimal at best.  It comes off to me as needlessly cruel.  I'm not saying that Frank doesn't deserve to be happy or be with some who loves him. I'm not saying he shouldn't go to England and even give Brianna the opportunity to go with him.  I'm just saying if I were Claire in this situation I would be furious at Frank and I would have every right to be so.  

[La Dee Da]

I found the Claire-Frank scenes very sad - you could see glimmers of how well suited they once were for each other, and how they could maybe become companions. But it was unrealistic for Frank to think they could go back and for Claire to think she could forge ahead. They both made the prison they found themselves in.  

On Claire’s studies and career, I wonder if we’ll go back to that next week.  Jaime’s and Claire’s stories have been tracking thematically - prisons this week, and coming to terms with losing each other last week.  If Jamie is going to shown immersing himself in Downton Abbey work, maybe they focus on med school for her.  Besides, a good portion of Claire’s story has been about defying expectations - it would be a shame to put that aside now, particularly as they’ve done so much work to set up a patriarchal system to topple in Boston.

it was great to see Murtagh - maybe Claire will come across a descendant in Boston?

[Cocogurl]

1 hour ago, Hyla said:

The show went so quickly through Brianna's childhood and the breakfast and camera scene only did so much to illustrate her relationship to her parents. Was Claire absent a lot and did Frank step in and help out with homework and bedtime stories and such? Did he and Bree go places together and have a special bond? Did he make it clear to Brianna how long suffering he was and how disappointed he was with her mother so that Bree would feel closer and more loyal to him?

I agree. It would've been interesting to see a bit more of Brianne's childhood and how she developed this bond with Frank.

 

38 minutes ago, WInterfalls said:

So here's the thing I think Claire had every right to be furious with Frank in that final fight they had.  Frank insisted they move to America for a fresh start.  Ok fine I get that. Claire attempts to make time to do things together like go to a movie because it's one of the few nights she isn't in class or has a ton of studying to do. Then Frank says no he's already seen those movies with a side piece but don't worry he's being discreet. Which OK they had an agreement, but his response seemed unnecessarily passive aggressive to me.  The thing that gets me is Claire says why don't they just get divorced and he says "no I'll never see Brianna", and Claire's response is "I would never keep her from you". Now whether you believe her or not that is where she is and she's not lying about it.  When he comes back to her after Brianna is 18 his opening statement is he's taking Brianna away.  When she argues his response isn't that I don't want to keep her from you it's "She won't even notice". Claire is right he has calculated and waited for the clock to run out so that he can separate Brianna and Claire. He didn't say we are getting a divorce and Brianna will live with me in another part of the city he's taking her across the ocean where their contact would be minimal at best.  It comes off to me as needlessly cruel.  I'm not saying that Frank doesn't deserve to be happy or be with some who loves him. I'm not saying he shouldn't go to England and even give Brianna the opportunity to go with him.  I'm just saying if I were Claire in this situation I would be furious at Frank and I would have every right to be so.  

I agree. The entire conversation, the timing of it and the way he brought up, felt very spiteful.

[greekmom]

I've actually hated Frank in this episode and sympathized with Claire.  I agree with Claire in the fact he was waiting for the clock to run out.  He could have divorced her years ago but chose not to because of Bree. Now that Bree is older, he can sway her decision to go with him.  He took Jamie away from Claire and is taking anything left that Claire loves.  I seriously wish she could have thrown the fact that she "saved" Frank countless of times by not allowing his monster BJR ancestor to die. 

Glad he's dead. 

[Mrs. Hanson]

One thing that puzzled me:  Why did Claire not raise Bree by herself?  She was a nurse, could have made a living wage - why put Frank through the ordeal of raising a baby that was not his?  I know he agreed, but maybe he did not realize the love that Claire had for Jamie?  How could he, really.  

At the hospital (I am a bit late, I know) when Claire said this was her second baby:  Frank was probably thinking, "Oh geez, they really did dig each other!"

[Scarlett45]

21 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

One thing that puzzled me:  Why did Claire not raise Bree by herself?  She was a nurse, could have made a living wage - why put Frank through the ordeal of raising a baby that was not his?  I know he agreed, but maybe he did not realize the love that Claire had for Jamie?  How could he, really.  

At the hospital (I am a bit late, I know) when Claire said this was her second baby:  Frank was probably thinking, "Oh geez, they really did dig each other!"

Yes there were single mothers in 1940s Britain (and the U.K.) but it's difficult now and it was even more difficult then. Also Claire did love Frank once upon a time and the idea of being a single mother, after having been missing from the 20th century for 3 years, with no extended family of her own (remember when she and Frank eloped there were comments of her side of the church being empty so why do a big church wedding) was probably less than appealing. 

I also think that knowing Frank hadn't moved on or married someone else in those three years probably made her feel secure and safe (who could blame her). At that point she maybe thought she could fall back in love with Frank again and have a happy life with him as Jaime was dead (she believed he died at Culloden). I don't think Jaime expected Claire to be alone the rest of her life without a sexual partner or companionship so why NOT Frank, a person she had already loved and had loved her.......

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, Cocogurl said:

He couldn't take her away in the literal sense, but he knows that he's got a close bond with Bree, so he's confident that if it really came down to a choice, she would choose him over Claire. So, in that sense, he could take Bree away and Claire would have no say in the matter.

And who's fault is that for not having a closer bond with her own daughter?  That's not Frank's fault, so why blame him.

15 hours ago, Glade said:

Personally I do think if Bree found out that Frank had been seeing a mistress for nearly her entire life, some of that idolization would have swiftly fallen away. 

Possibly.  Even probably, especially if she'd found out as a young girl who still thought her parent's marriage was happy.  But if she found out as a teenager when Claire was never home, maybe she'd sympathize with her father after all?  In a way, it's too bad we never got to see that. 

13 hours ago, Hyla said:

I'm not surprised she was angry in that scene. It really was low of Frank to want to take Brianna away from her. He should have filed for divorce years before instead of wallowing in resentment. 

Claire could have also filed for divorce years ago.  She knew Frank was having an affair (or affairs).  She would have gotten sole custody of Brianna and probably a hefty alimony check back in those days.  She probably even could have gotten her medical school expenses written into the divorce agreement.  But she didn't.  Which tells me that Claire liked having the security of Frank as a financial and childcare provider without having to be his or Brianna's emotional support.  How nice for her.

13 hours ago, ganesh said:

Who paid for Claire's medical school?

Since Claire wasn't working until she finished Med school, I guess it was Frank.  Even if his position at Harvard included free tuition as a perk, that's usually only for undergraduate classes.  Maybe he got a discount for Claire for the graduate work, but there were still other costs involved like books, lab supplies, and childcare expenses while Claire was in class and he was working.  

11 hours ago, greekmom said:

He took Jamie away from Claire and is taking anything left that Claire loves.  I seriously wish she could have thrown the fact that she "saved" Frank countless of times by not allowing his monster BJR ancestor to die. 

Frank didn't take Jamie away from Claire.  Jamie forced Claire to go back through the stones, not Frank.  Jamie took Jamie away from Claire.

BJR was not Frank's direct ancestor, his brother was.  So as it turned out, Claire didn't save Frank's life at all.  

[greekmom]

22 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And who's fault is that for not having a closer bond with her own daughter?  That's not Frank's fault, so why blame him.

Possibly.  Even probably, especially if she'd found out as a young girl who still thought her parent's marriage was happy.  But if she found out as a teenager when Claire was never home, maybe she'd sympathize with her father after all?  In a way, it's too bad we never got to see that. 

Claire could have also filed for divorce years ago.  She knew Frank was having an affair (or affairs).  She would have gotten sole custody of Brianna and probably a hefty alimony check back in those days.  She probably even could have gotten her medical school expenses written into the divorce agreement.  But she didn't.  Which tells me that Claire liked having the security of Frank as a financial and childcare provider without having to be his or Brianna's emotional support.  How nice for her.

Since Claire wasn't working until she finished Med school, I guess it was Frank.  Even if his position at Harvard included free tuition as a perk, that's usually only for undergraduate classes.  Maybe he got a discount for Claire for the graduate work, but there were still other costs involved like books, lab supplies, and childcare expenses while Claire was in class and he was working.  

Frank didn't take Jamie away from Claire.  Jamie forced Claire to go back through the stones, not Frank.  Jamie took Jamie away from Claire.

BJR was not Frank's direct ancestor, his brother was.  So as it turned out, Claire didn't save Frank's life at all.  

Having such a marriage as Frank and Claire did puts a strain on the whole situation.  I can understand why Claire wouldn't want to be in the home when Frank was.  We didn't get any proof other than Claire was off to medical school, that she was an "absent" parent.  Plus I don't understand why Frank would be home more than Claire since he is a full time professor (granted his hours would be different than Claire's) but still he would have a full load on top of hooking up with Sandy.   I would think with two busy parents would need a sitter and/or nanny.  I certainly cannot see Frank as the main parent in this case given the times (50's).

Claire (IMHO) was honouring her agreement with Frank.   But Frank is a selfish jerk (again IMHO) who knew that he was probably sterile and this is the only way to keep Claire and have a child to boot.  Frank moved from England and Scotland so Claire wouldn't be tempted to go back through the stones at a later date.  To me that kept Claire from Jamie.  Frank also made her promise not to look up what happened to Jamie. To me, that kept Claire further away from Jamie. 

I stand corrected about BJR not being Frank's direct ancestor. 

[qtpye]

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 2:19 AM, Glade said:

I think Frank was telling her that he'd gone to see these films on his recent dates with other women (or just Sandy, as it later turned out) hence why he followed that statement by pointing out how discrete he's been about it.  Either way it was pretty passive aggressive and unfriendly.

 

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 9:17 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I was thinking about this just this morning!  And I couldn't agree more with what you said.  Episode two had SO much misogyny - from Frank's boss toward Claire and then her first Med school professor.  Then suddenly it's all gone this episode.  Claire is "Dr. Randall" and having a graduation party in her house (attended by a black man in the 1950's - no matter that he was also a Dr. - "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?" anyone?) and NONE of that is addressed.  I know he's only a side character, but I would have liked to have seen more of the struggles and racism Joe surely faced in that time period - even into the 60's when Brianna graduated.  But Nope.  The only thing that mattered was that Claire was humiliated in front of her colleagues cause Frank's mistress showed up early. We're supposed to feel sorry for Claire, (so we can see what a Jerk Frank turned out to be so we can't wait for her to get back to Perfect Jamie) but never mind how Claire humiliated Frank in front of his new colleagues last episode.  (But that was okay, because they were all misogynist pigs.)  

I wonder if those who dislike Frank so much would have as much antipathy for Claire were their stories reversed.  What if Frank had been the one who disappeared through the stones for three years and comes home (Game of Thrones style) with a child by another woman who 'died in childbirth'.  (But not really.  Frank thought his PastWife died but unbeknownst to him, she survived.)  And there was Claire - left behind and suspected of killing the husband she dearly loved - who takes her husband back because she still loves him although he only does it because he needs a mother for his child - and raises that child as her own and thinks, maybe eventually, Frank would love her again because he had loved her in the past.  But Frank never forgot his 'true love' and it's obvious because he's cold toward Claire, barely touches her, and the few times they have sex he's thinking about the wife he left behind.  So Claire, lonely and starved for real affection, meets someone who truly cares about her and starts having a discreet affair.  

The husband having an affair because his wife is cold to him is an unsympathetic cad.  But the wife having an affair for the same reason would likely get a pass.  

Sure she did.  She promised to leave the past in the past.  I thought it was made clear in that final scene between Frank and Claire that every time she looks at Brianna, Claire thinks of Jamie.  So she obviously didn't keep that promise.  

You might be right about if Claire had been able to talk about Jamie and properly mourn him, it would have helped her move on.  But I think we're supposed to believe that nothing would have been enough for Claire to move on from Jamie, just as nothing was ever enough for Jamie to move on from Claire.  

 

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 9:33 AM, terrymct said:

Poor Frank.  He finally gets a chance for real happiness and away from Claire's tormenting of him and he dies.  The graduation party scene where his girlfriend showed up didn’t ring true to me.  He was smart and careful.  It seems like a particularly bonehead thing to do, especially if he was actually afraid he could lose visitation rights.

Claire is a nasty piece of work.  It was her malfunction that resulted in the distance between she and Frank.  She agreed to the discreet “open marriage” then she’s angry at him.  Frank's only real sin was that he’s not Jamie and she made him paid for that in spades.  How did she get to go to medical school?  Frank was working so he must have paid the bills and he raised Claire's daughter as his own when Claire wouldn’t.  Why?  Because she looks like Jamie?  Claire is horrible, selfish and self absorbed. 

I was glad to see Gray portrayed as a closeted gay man who is a decent soul.  It’s a refreshing change from the previous stereotypes in the show.  

 

18 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

As soon as Frank said "I have seen them" I was like "Oh you did NOT see them with some chippy!"  Yep, he did.   Couldn't you just say you don't want to see them?    When he started in saying he was taking Bree to England I was like oh hell to the no on that, brother.  And Claire told him as much!

I am the odd man out with the scenes from current day:  I liked them better than Jamie's scenes.  A lot of plot got moved forward in the Boston scenes.  Frank was really a dick about Bree's graduation dinner!  Go meet your side order at another cafe!

 

18 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

D-oh!  I knew that!!  Thanks for the catch.  

 

Maybe that is why Claire reacted as strongly as she did?  She knew they were close?  Maybe she was resentful of their bond?  Thinkning that bond should be with Jamie?  Why am I still thinking about this?  LOL!

 

17 hours ago, Hyla said:

I read the movie invitation over breakfast scene as Frank gently reminding Claire that they haven't been the kind of couple who sees movies together for years and he's been stepping out and doing that kind of thing with other ladies at her request. The way the actor portrays Frank is so charming and sweet it's difficult to see the bitterness and passive aggressiveness unless it's blatant.

Which it was with the threat of taking Bree to England and removing her from the life Claire had built for herself in Boston. What a revenge! He really was playing a long game there, waiting it out for Bree to be of legal age so Claire has no say in the matter and throwing out you haven't been a decent mother with all your med school and work that takes you away from home!

It was an abrupt, sad end for him. I wish he had divorced and married Sandy years ago and been happy with visitation rights to Brianna. He and Claire stuck it out for so long being so miserable together!

I was actually expecting a dramatic death scene for Frank (have to utilize the actor!) Where he would die of a heart attack and have a last interaction with Claire. I know the theme of the episode was unsaid goodbyes, but that was such a sterile, final scene at the hospital for Claire to walk into.

With Frank made out to be so sympathetic and having been so unhappy for so long it's rather guilt inducing to be happy Claire is finally free and can start her journey to reclaim her one true love.

 

17 hours ago, Pegasaurus said:

It was unrealistic for Frank to ask that of Claire. She never should have made that promise to Frank.

How could one just go back to daily life as if nothing happened?  I think the experience Claire had would change a person forever.

 

17 hours ago, nara said:

In all fairness, Sandy was only picking Frank up at the house because Claire was taking the car.  However, when the doorbell rang, he should have rushed to answer it.  He must have known she was arriving soon.  Plus, if you are going to have an affair with a married man, you really ought to be better at lying that Sandy was.  "Hi. I'm looking for the Smith residence.  Oh, this is not it?  My mistake."

Unrelated, but do we believe that John Grey was sent to this godforsaken prison because it's known that he's gay?  It didn't seem to stop what appears to be a rapid promotion process in the past 6 years but perhaps it has been recently discovered?

Also, I wanted to share this quote from the  New York Times that made me LOL.  "Grey has fulfilled his “Outlander” contractual obligation to grow up handsome, and as played by David Berry, gives Jamie a worthy foil."

 

16 hours ago, Cocogurl said:

Honestly, I lost some of my sympathy for Frank in this episode. I feel like a lot of his behaviors were passive aggressive attempts to get back at Claire, which is just petty considering she offered him an out and he chose not to take it. And his decision to take Bree away from Claire was like his ultimate vengeance on her. I just lost a lot of respect for him in that scene.

 

Also, can someone give Sam an Emmy?! He is killing it this season.

 

13 hours ago, ganesh said:

All interesting questions that I thought we'd have at least one episode to see. 

Who paid for Claire's medical school?

 

13 hours ago, nara said:

I think that part of the reason Frank expected Claire to get over it was that he knew they had been happily married and in love before she disappeared.  I imagine it would be hard for him to understand why she wouldn't go back to that feeling in time.  (Honestly, I also had a hard time believing that, even though I love Jamie/Claire.) From Frank's perspective, Claire treated him as "out of sight, out of mind" when she was in the 18th century, so surely she could be the same way with Jamie now that she was back in the 20th century.

I didn't get the impression that he was trying to spiteful and take Brianna away.  He has always wanted to stay connected to England and wanted Brianna to be an English girl (e.g., his complaints about tea bags and pop tarts and objection to Claire taking US citizenship).   Frank is a historian and would naturally have a stornger bond to England than another person might. He wanted to go home and saw this also as an opportunity to take Brianna to England and absorb that culture .  However, he  was also a product of his time and saw the time Claire spent in med school and residency as caring less about her family than he did, which is not fair.  He probably got some pleasure (malicious or not) in knowing that Brianna was "daddy's girl" but that doesn't make him any different from most of the parents I know.

BTW, on my belated rewatch of Season 2, I saw that Willie got married and moved to America.  I like to think that he met/meets (the verb tenses of time travel are confusing) up again with Murtagh.   

 

11 hours ago, greekmom said:

I've actually hated Frank in this episode and sympathized with Claire.  I agree with Claire in the fact he was waiting for the clock to run out.  He could have divorced her years ago but chose not to because of Bree. Now that Bree is older, he can sway her decision to go with him.  He took Jamie away from Claire and is taking anything left that Claire loves.  I seriously wish she could have thrown the fact that she "saved" Frank countless of times by not allowing his monster BJR ancestor to die. 

Glad he's dead. 

So much to unpack this episode between Frank and Claire, yet really no new ground was covered.  Their marriage was a situation where there were no winners.  Claire wanted the safety and security Frank afforded her, but not Frank.  This was selfish, but understandable.  On the other hand, Frank wanted Claire.  His love had been taken away by extraordinary circumstances that were not his fault.  Claire probably love her daughter very much, but she would always be a reminder of all that she had lost.  This probably made her a cold and distant parent.  Claire probably did bury herself in her work to escape the troubles at home.

For his part, realizing that Claire would never love him made Frank bitter and a little petty.  I have been married for 12 years and when a spouse says they only are staying for the children, it is usually total bullshit.  Frank stayed for Claire.  When he finally asks for a divorce, he says he wants a wife that loves him, but mentions nothing about loving the other woman.  He speaks earlier about his being discrete about his affairs, but if he is being totally discrete he would have never mentioned them, since it was obvious Claire did not notice.  He passively aggresively wanted her to know, though the woman showing up to the dinner was probably an accident.  He also did want to take their daughter to England to show her their heritage, but it was also to shove it in Claire's face that he was the preferred parent and she knew it.  Brie would always want to spend time with Frank over her.

At the end of the day Frank is a tragic figure who really never got over Claire.  Hus chance at a seond life was cut short by the accident.

[terrymct]

17 hours ago, Glade said:

Personally I do think if Bree found out that Frank had been seeing a mistress for nearly her entire life, some of that idolization would have swiftly fallen away. 

 

She would still idolize him once the second part of the story emerged, that Claire had disappeared for two years and returned pregnant with another man's child for Frank to raise while denying Frank any sort of relationship beyond the superficial and that the "open marriage" was by mutual consent.   Claire still comes out at the bad one in this, especially if you love the man who raised you while your mother was either emotionally distant or not around at all.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Plus I don't understand why Frank would be home more than Claire since he is a full time professor (granted his hours would be different than Claire's) but still he would have a full load on top of hooking up with Sandy.

I can't speak for 1950s Boston, but being a full time professor affords you a ton of flexibility in your schedule. Not to mention it's highly likely that he brought the daughter to campus at times. Given that they've shown of Frank, I could see him taking a strong role in parenting despite the times. 

I'm wondering if the season is being unfolded in a highly nonlinear way for a reason. For example, let's say Claire and Jamie reunite next episode (I have no idea and don't care to). That doesn't mean we don't see all this "missing time" of this episode further down the line this season. 

On Claire plot since the S2 finale, they keep showing us the end and then going back. Jamie seems to be going forward in time but at a different rate. I can't figure out why they'd do that, but leaving out so much character development is so egregious that it has to be deliberate. 

[nara]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

BJR was not Frank's direct ancestor, his brother was.  So as it turned out, Claire didn't save Frank's life at all.  

She might still have saved his life.  If Mary had been an unwed mother, she might have lived in poverty and her child might not have survived to adulthood.  Or she might have taken her own life due to the shame.  Of course, we would never know if this were true.  But her actions did ensure that someone gave the baby who would be Frank's ancestor a name and sufficient food, etc. to grow up.

 

I don't think there is any evidence that Claire was a distant parent. We saw her take Bree to library last season, and she seems really attached to her. as a baby.  However, since she was a med student and resident, she was necessarily working longer hours than an established professor.  Plus, Claire is the stricter one (no car for you) and Frank is indulgent.  Frank also grew up with  traditional family and Claire was raised by a single uncle out on archaeological digs so he probably had more family rituals for holidays and stuff.  All these things serve to switch the traditional gender roles and characteristics., but that doesn't mean Claire was distant with Bree--just not like other mothers of the time.  Bree might resent that non-traditional behavior as a tween and teen, because children often do resent when their family is different from the norm, but come to respect it as an adult.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Claire (IMHO) was honouring her agreement with Frank.   But Frank is a selfish jerk (again IMHO) who knew that he was probably sterile and this is the only way to keep Claire and have a child to boot.  Frank moved from England and Scotland so Claire wouldn't be tempted to go back through the stones at a later date.  To me that kept Claire from Jamie.  Frank also made her promise not to look up what happened to Jamie. To me, that kept Claire further away from Jamie. 

Frank probably was a little selfish for trying to keep Claire and the baby - but I don't think he was a jerk.  A real jerk would have left her, penniless and pregnant, and filed for divorce on grounds of adultery right away.  IMO, Claire was also selfish for staying with Frank all those years just for the financial security (and built in father figure) he provided.

Given that I don't think Frank believed Claire's story about the stones, I highly doubt the move was to specifically stop her from going back through them.  Ditto about not looking up Jamie.  I think Frank thought Claire was suffering from a delusion and he was trying to not feed into that delusion by having her not talk about it.  

[WInterfalls]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

IMO, Claire was also selfish for staying with Frank all those years just for the financial security (and built in father figure) he provided.

I don't think Claire cared about the financial security, though sure it's nice. I think the main reason Claire stayed with Frank was because he was Brianna's father (in every way but biology). My problem with Frank this episode is that he was specifically passive aggressively punishing her at every turn. The way he shot down going to the movies, the fact that he skipped his graduation dinner to go out with his mistress (even if the time mix up was a mistake he could have padded his timeline a bit or prevented Claire from opening the door and she certainly shouldn't have come in in front of all of Claire's friends and colleagues) he should have been at her dinner in the first place. And then he straight up tells Claire I'm taking Brianna to England now that she's old enough that you can't have a say.  I don't think that Frank is a bad guy anymore than I think he is a saint.  But he made choices too; all of his unhappiness is not Claire's fault.  Claire gave him an out years before as he did with her at the beginning and he didn't take it. But you can't tell me that his plan to move and take Brianna wasn't done at least in part to hurt Claire.  That is something Claire never tried to to him.  She may have hurt him because she couldn't love him the way she loved Jamie, but she never did anything to intentionally hurt Frank.  Honestly, I think if they had gotten a divorce when Brianna was young they could have both moved on been great co-parents and even been relatively friendly to one another.  It's very rarely worth it to stay in an unhappy relationship. 

[Cocogurl]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And who's fault is that for not having a closer bond with her own daughter?  That's not Frank's fault, so why blame him.

I don't blame him for it, but I do think it's messed up to rub it in Claire's face and to try to use it as tool to pull Bree away from Claire. Everything about his behavior in this episode felt like he was trying to get back at her in any way he could.

[Mrs. Hanson]

1 hour ago, Cocogurl said:

I don't blame him for it, but I do think it's messed up to rub it in Claire's face and to try to use it as tool to pull Bree away from Claire. Everything about his behavior in this episode felt like he was trying to get back at her in any way he could.

Yes he was quite the passive aggressive guy.  Both were at fault, by their own choices and somewhat stuck in the social mandates of the times.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Mrs. Hanson