S02.E02: Rising

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Sam clears her head.

[Liamsmom617]

  Much better episode than last week's....I could so relate to almost all of it....from dating a guy "just to be nice", to no longer hating the ex b/c you kinda feel sorry for him, to having a getaway without your kids and then wishing they were there with you after all. 

   (Laughed my ass off at the kids' friends being named "Sorrow" and "Bottle"..)

[Jeanne222]

I like Sam.  What you see is what you get!  Only my second episode so I'm still trying to figure out who's who.  I'm guessing the man she dropped off her youngest with is her ex? 

I'm not so sure what happened at the party that she left so abruptly?  Curious. 

[xwordfanatik]

I've been a Pamela fan since Lucky Louie.  She was great in Louie, as well.

I enjoyed this episode a lot more than last week.  I really liked when she split the party, and picked up her girls.  There's nothing I like better than the Pacific coast.

[Blakeston]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I like Sam.  What you see is what you get!  Only my second episode so I'm still trying to figure out who's who.  I'm guessing the man she dropped off her youngest with is her ex? 

I'm not so sure what happened at the party that she left so abruptly?  Curious. 

The man she dropped off her youngest with is the ex of her friend Sunny (the one with the super-rich boyfriend). Sam always hated him because he was a terrible husband to her friend.

It seemed like she left the party because the host tried to fix her up with someone (who we didn't get to see).

The part at the end - where she picked up her kids and brought them to the beach - was all in her mind, right? We saw it happening, and then it looked like it cut back to before she picked the kids up.

And I guess Frankie standing back while Max and Duke happily played together symbolized how Frankie is distanced from Max and Duke because of his/her gender noncomformity?

[QQQQ]

Hated the parking lot rant. If it had been a man belittling a woman like that I don't think anyone would be applauding. And her assigning him female pronouns as a form of humiliation?  What does that say about her perspective of women? Boo indeed.

[Ottis]

This ep fell flat for me. It's hard to root for s character whose actions betray what she has stood for. It's not the unapologetic personality I don't like. It's that she was behaving in so many ways that I don't think she would actually like in others. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Ottis

[DiabLOL]

What a tone deaf train wreck of a show this is becoming. I can see clearly now that I'm supposed to think Sam is all kinds of fierce. 

Nope.

She thinks she's being "nice" by fucking a guy she's loathed from the moment she clapped eyes on him? That's not being nice that's being messed up. Not the end of the world, not a war crime or anything but why is she abusive to him in public like that? Calling him she because well of course what could be more degrading than being a woman, right Sam with three daughters who also insist on male versions of their names? All the guy seemed to do was act in good faith because she acted like she liked him. Wow.

Also leaving that party was all kinds of feral. She doesn't seem to know how to behave and now I fully get why her daughters are all awful as well.

[Irlandesa]

After watching the first segment, I knew Louis CK wrote the episode.  The latter segments were some of the better, although not the best, of what he could do and the first segment was the worst of what he could do.  It reeked of someone who thought they were writing this awesome pro-women POV but still had major issues around it. 

There could have been something interesting written about women who date someone just to be nice because the guy isn't necessarily bad. Or he could have been a "nice guy" like maybe being mad at her when she didn't have an orgasm from his awesome moves. 

But what we got was not that.

[scrb]

What is this episode suppose to be about, how Sam has her shit together?

She's too good for the schlub she was dating -- and she was only dating him what to have a date for social engagements?  He was too needy for her?

She was too good for the social scene with her friends and too good for whomever they were trying to fix her up with?

She's a great parent because she can make an impromptu trip to the beach with her bratty kids?  After last week's episode, where she let her 16-year old screw a sleazy guy for a couple of weeks before laying the law down, we know that's bunk.

 

I don't know what Louis is going for here, that Sam found some moment of grace and serenity -- with the dreamy background music -- with her daughters?

Guess this is kind of like that episode with the ducks in Afghanistan.

[QQQQ]

scrb - Thank you! This felt exactly like ducks in Afghanistan. Albeit really shitty ducks in Afghanistan...

 

I thought the daughters on vacation portion was her imagination. The kids being civil was a big tip off that it was a booze-induced fever dream.

Edited September 24, 2017 by QQQQ

[AllyB]

11 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

She thinks she's being "nice" by fucking a guy she's loathed from the moment she clapped eyes on him? That's not being nice that's being messed up.

Trying to imagine how I'd feel if I started dating a man who hated me on sight but spent 3 weeks having sex with me to 'get it out of the way' before dates so he could go home afterwards. Who belittled and humiliated me when I tried to talk to him because I was starting to suspect he didn't like me that much. Who let loose a massive abusive rant because after having enough of the 'relationship' I refused to drive him home. And said he'd like me better if I was used derogatory names for him. I'd feel like all kinds of crap at how he'd treated me but deeply, deeply relieved to have escaped with my life. She's deeply messed up. The guy was kind of gross, but the thing to do there is have a quick drink with him on the first date and then nicely say you'd rather leave it at that and go home.

[Nessie]

I don't know how much more I can take of this show, after last week's seriously unfunny episode and this week's rant to that guy in the parking lot.  Nice?  She thinks she was sleeping with him because she's too nice?  I mean, who does that?  I have been told by many, many people that I am one of the nicest people in the world...some have even used it as an insult.  I used to hate it and tried for years to change, but I have embraced "nice" as just part of who I am.  I get going on a date or even two with a guy you're not really into, but dating him for 3 weeks, and seeing him enough times that you sleep with him at least 10 times?  Even I wouldn't do that...I wouldn't even sleep with him once.  Sam is not nice, not even close.  What Sam is is a completely narcissistic, un-self aware asshole.  I would think such people couldn't possibly exist, but she reminds me of a woman in my office, who is just this complete bitch and no one likes her, but she thinks she a really nice person.  She's even said so to me, without a hint of irony.  And even if Sam was sleeping with him because she was "a nice person", nice people don't publicly humiliate their dates.   I also agree with those who were really irritated by her using feminine pronouns to refer to him and even calling him "this woman" at one point, as if men don't have any right to feelings when it comes to relationships.  Is this how she is raising her daughters?  No wonder they are all so screwed up.  Asshole.  And then she had the nerve to call him a dick as he drove away.  She's lucky he didn't try to run her over!  (Also, I wanted to smack that woman who was applauding her rant.)  I read a few articles about this show this week, and overwhelmingly, they seem to think this season is better than last (which granted, got off to a slow start).  One article called her rant "hilariously cutting".  Wow.   

I did kind of like the stuff after that, even her fantasy of driving down to get her girls to let them enjoy the beach.  I had a similar experience when my kids were younger.  I got the use of an apartment right on the beach for a few days and I left my kids with my mom.  I did let them come visit me for a day, but then they had to go back to grandma's so I could relax and enjoy my "me" time.  It was pretty shitty of her to leave the party with no explanation, though.  Hopefully she called her friend (Sunny?) after she checked into the motel, or at least asked the golf cart driver to tell them she was ok.

Oh, and I have to comment on the Bowie/Crosby video.  I remember the first time I saw it, I thought it was one of the most bizarre things ever, but now it's one of my favorite Christmas songs/videos.  It's awesome!

Anyway, this show has one more episode before I decide to delete it.  I have vowed to myself that I will no longer watch anything that I'm not enjoying...it's not good for my blood pressure, there's just way too many other options out there.

[scrb]

I guess there's "growth" for Sam in that as soon as they try to fix her up, she decides she won't repeat the mistake with the previous guy.

But instead of being polite for the day or the weekend and just playing along, she rejects him in a pretty rude way.

Still don't get what is suppose to be "Rising" in this episode.

Her already overinflated sense of herself?

[TaylorTalk]

I find the responses to this episode really interesting.

I'm going to guess that this episode isn't really rooted in reality.  Other commenters posting on the beach scene not being real and being booze induced.

Without being told the circumstances of how the she met the first guy, let's assume that she met him exactly like she was introduced to the second guy at the party. "Come meet my friend", so it's a blind date with obligations to friends.  Sam says "I really don't like him." and the friend says "just give him a chance."  So she puts up with having sex with him ten times in three weeks.  It's obvious he's not picking up the signal that he needs to up his game, but instead he gets put off that she's not into what he's putting out.

Then he has a temper tantrum because he's surprised to find out that she doesn't consider them a 'thing'.   So she flips out that she did what everybody told her to do which is give the guy more than enough chances, and her putting out 10 times in three weeks was such a waste of time.

Buddy, she did everything but tell you directly that what you're putting out is not her thing, and when she tells you the truth, you freak out instead of listen.

That rant was probably rooted in any date where anyone has had to deal with 'I don't know, what do you want to do."  Be bold, make a stand, be definitive, be someone a solid version of yourself that people can come to expect, not a ball of jelly that people can neither pull towards or push away from.  Everybody hates flip floppers.

[Nessie]

1 hour ago, qqererer said:

Without being told the circumstances of how the she met the first guy, let's assume that she met him exactly like she was introduced to the second guy at the party. "Come meet my friend", so it's a blind date with obligations to friends.  Sam says "I really don't like him." and the friend says "just give him a chance."  So she puts up with having sex with him ten times in three weeks.  It's obvious he's not picking up the signal that he needs to up his game, but instead he gets put off that she's not into what he's putting out.

Then he has a temper tantrum because he's surprised to find out that she doesn't consider them a 'thing'.   So she flips out that she did what everybody told her to do which is give the guy more than enough chances, and her putting out 10 times in three weeks was such a waste of time.

Buddy, she did everything but tell you directly that what you're putting out is not her thing, and when she tells you the truth, you freak out instead of listen.

That rant was probably rooted in any date where anyone has had to deal with 'I don't know, what do you want to do."  Be bold, make a stand, be definitive, be someone a solid version of yourself that people can come to expect, not a ball of jelly that people can neither pull towards or push away from.  Everybody hates flip floppers.

Sorry, but I can't agree this argument.  Even if they met in the way you describe, "a blind date with obligations to friends" in no way obliges her to sleep with him.  There is a huge, gaping chasm between "give him a chance" and falling into bed with him 10 times in 3 weeks.  Once or twice, maybe (not an obligation, but it happens), but 10?  Nope.  Especially when she's not enjoying it, as she clearly was not.  She has no one to blame in this situation but herself.  

If the situation were reversed, and a man had treated me like Sam had treated him, I wouldn't have given him a ride home either.  The only difference is that I would have walked out during the date, not waited until it was over.  He, at least, tried not to humiliate Sam.  Pity she was too self-involved to return the favor.

[TaylorTalk]

2 hours ago, Nessie said:

 Once or twice, maybe (not an obligation, but it happens), but 10?

Are you saying that sex between two adults should be seen only as a precious commodity between two loving adults?

Storytelling is all about stakes, and exaggerating details for drama/entertainment and making judgements about one time or ten times is as moot as arguing about how many bullets a gun can fire.

IMO What the writers are trying to convey with the 10x3weeks, is that she literally fucking tried to give a 'nice' person a chance, she gave a ton of signals that she was actually trying to give the relationship a chance by letting him fuck her, even though she clearly wasn't into it (and she's right, no guy should should have to ask if a girl got off.  Any decent guy knows), hoping that he'd get past that certain point where he'd get over the 'I want to have sex", and start getting into the "Now that the sex is over, let's talk/do something interesting".  I can see why Sam wanted to just get the sex over with, because if it came at the end of the night, it's all about guys being as m-f-ing charming as possible, then once the sex comes at the end of the night, the toad comes out and he goes home.

 

She put out a ton of signals that said "I'm not into the sex, but I'm willing to do it to make you happy in the hopes that if we focus on your need for sex, then we can focus on my need for an actual, interesting relationship."  This is a pretty common trope in heterosexual relationships, albeit seen more often in younger aged people. He knew something was up, he knew she wasn't vibing with him, BUT STILL HAD SEX WITH HER.

He called her out on something he already knew what he was on shaky ground.  If you get the feeling that someone doesn't like having sex with you, for gods sake don't call them out on not considering what you're doing 'being together'.  That's just a great way to end FWB.

You may think she's being disgusting, but I think it's taking a premise, extrapolating possibilities, and making an interesting TV episode about it.  If you don't recognize aspects from both sides, you really haven't dated enough.  That end argument scene in the parking lot I found highly entertaining, and maybe not the words, but the sentiment extremely honest in it's writing.

Without risk and stakes, television is extremely boring.

Edited September 24, 2017 by qqererer

[scrb]

She didn't want a relationship with him either, did she?

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, qqererer said:

Are you saying that sex between two adults should be seen only as a precious commodity between two loving adults?

That's not what I got out of @Nessie's post.  You don't have to think that sex should be something pure between two loving adults to think that most people have sex because they get something out of it.

Sam met this guy and decided to give him a chance.  She decided to start sleeping with him.  She hated him and she decided to keep sleeping with him.  She wasn't enjoying the sex and she didn't stop sleeping with him.  So, as presented on the show, she gets absolutely nothing out of having sex with or dating him and yet she still goes out with him and has sex with him.  It's presented as her choice. 

So maybe he is out of touch. They barely know one another.  He takes her at her word. Maybe he is a jerk.  After all, Sam hated him from day one so she pretty much knows he is.  Yet she's also not a young girl with no agency.  She's over 40.  Even if his read on her was bad, ultimately, she's responsible for her choices.  Not him.  It was ridiculous of her to blame him or cop an attitude over her choices.

[Nessie]

4 hours ago, qqererer said:

Are you saying that sex between two adults should be seen only as a precious commodity between two loving adults?

(snip)

IMO What the writers are trying to convey with the 10x3weeks, is that she literally fucking tried to give a 'nice' person a chance, she gave a ton of signals that she was actually trying to give the relationship a chance by letting him fuck her, even though she clearly wasn't into it (and she's right, no guy should should have to ask if a girl got off.  

(snip)

You may think she's being disgusting, but I think it's taking a premise, extrapolating possibilities, and making an interesting TV episode about it.  If you don't recognize aspects from both sides, you really haven't dated enough.  That end argument scene in the parking lot I found highly entertaining, and maybe not the words, but the sentiment extremely honest in it's writing.

No, that's not what I'm saying, and I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said.  People can, and do, have sex for all kinds of reasons.  What I'm saying is if they choose to have sex with someone 10 times even if they not only get nothing out of it, but actively hate the person they are doing it with, that is on them, not the person they are "letting" have sex with them (which, btw, I also think is kind of a gross concept and is your word, not mine).  Yes, it was gross of him to ask if she had an orgasm, any partner who knows what he/she is doing shouldn't have to ask, but also?  She's an adult.  She should have told him what she needed.  So again, not totally on him.

I'm also not sure how my thinking Sam needs to take responsibility for her own actions means I haven't dated enough, but thanks for the insight.  I'll take that under consideration.  What I can be pretty sure about is that if you found that parking lot scene highly entertaining, we have very different ideas about what entertainment is, and just leave it at that.  Peace.

Thanks, @Irlandesa.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Nessie

[possibilities]

Also, him thinking they were together when she'd had sex with him 10 times in 3 weeks and they were going places together afterwards, is not that crazy of a conclusion for him to draw, and the way she declared otherwise to the people they were talking with was rude and calculated to be nasty. Him being exasperated about that doesn't make him needy. Him not wanting to drive her home when she could hire a ride after that was not outrageous. She was very cutting in the car on the way over, also. She wasn't even minimally decent and polite, she was actively insulting him. If she doesn't want to be with him, fine. But her projecting it as him being needy for calling her on it was more than a stretch.

I think this show is going the way of Louie, which is that I used to love it but then it started celebrating disgusting behavior, and trying to portray it as awesome and sympathetic and empowered and romantic. Shudder.

[scrb]

She wanted to go to that social event, whatever it was.  She wanted to get the sex out of the way and make it in time.

So they talk to another couple, being seen as a couple, and then when the other couple invites them, she says they're not a couple.

WTF?

They're not really friends with benefits, because she doesn't enjoy sex with him at all.  But they go out in public together and socialize as if they're a couple.

Or did she just think of him as her ride there and she's doing a favor by letting him stand beside her and drink?

The situation makes no sense either way.  

Is Sam some saint, who'll endure all kinds of unpleasant things without her getting anything out of it?  No that's not the character they've portrayed.  She has that evil Bobby Hill voice, with the mocking tone, the cruel things she says.  She's not some doormat by any means.

It's not an accident that her daughters are "strong" personalities who will push their weight around with their peers.  They've modeled that behavior from their mother, who's also openly disdainful of her mother/their grandmother.

Is the fact that she bails on the party right away, presumably to avoid another sexual relationship, suppose to show that she's learned and isn't putting up with BS any more?

 

Maybe this show and Louie are about how great single parents are, how difficult their lives are, but they will raise great kids and also be stupendous people, who are too punk rock for anything they deem BS.

[justmehere]

4 hours ago, qqererer said:

making judgements about one time or ten times is as moot as arguing about how many bullets a gun can fire.

Huh? If there isn't an immediate connection but someone wants to determine if there can be something, maybe sleep with the person once or twice to decide. If someone knows they don't like a person, don't enjoy the sex, and yet continues to sleep with them... that's something else. I don't see how the comparison with bullets equates. However many people someone has dated, or not, why continue to sleep with someone under those circumstances? It certainly isn't "nice."

Perhaps the difference lies in the view of sex and what seems to be an increasing shift toward thinking it's not a big deal, no matter what. To each their own, but it seems dehumanizing to me and that is, in my opinion, a problem. It doesn't have to be true-love-lifelong-commitment, but it's not nothing; it's still a person, a human being, who may or may not hold the same view. (I'm absolutely not implying anything about anyone specifically, but as an example of taking it to an extreme on a TV show, that general view reminds me of the latest season of Broadchurch: "It's just sex.")

Anyway -- I thought Sam was horrible to that guy, flat out. Maybe she'd reached some bigger breaking point and he happened to be the last straw (she was awfully stressed and desperate to get away on the trip), but as others have said, she made the choice to keep sleeping with him. She knew who he was. Flaying him in public given her own behavior was horrible. And she went on and on and on. Nothing she did in that relationship beyond the first date or two was nice.

[TaylorTalk]

I'm viewing this show as a comedy and not making direct parallels to actual real life.

 

It's sketch comedy. written by people who are comics, who's writing style is to take a premise, find an angle, add stakes, and take it to an extreme conclusion wherever it may go.

If the characters were good people who made reasonable choices, it would be boring to watch and wouldn't explore interesting crevices of human behaviour.

Fictional people making imperfect choices.  It makes for interesting  TV.

People see 10x3 weeks and say  "There is a huge, gaping chasm between "give him a chance" and falling into bed with him 10 times in 3 weeks.  Once or twice, maybe (not an obligation, but it happens), but 10?", I see the same thing and say "Ok, I don't know why, but for whatever reason, she is seriously invested in this relationship."

It's an absurd premise ready for exploration.  I choose not to make a judgement, but instead just watch what happens.  It's no different from going to an improv show, and the actors asking for the most ridiculous suggestions from the audience.  It's futile to question why an astronaut would go see a dentist in an amusement park.  That's not the point. The whole point is to see what happens if an astronaut goes to see the dentist at an amusement park.  And as a viewer, I have to be open to the possibility that the astronaut could go see the dentist at the amusement park for something other than dentistry.  If anything I hope that is what happens.  Anything unpredictable is welcome.

So having a rant in a parking lot with an audience where she unloads on the guy is great.  It's different, it's interesting.  No, it's not mature, not it's not grown up, but it's a hell of a lot more interesting than the two of them still in the restaurant saying to him, "you know that last conversation with my friends didn't sit well with me, and I'm thinking that I'm not happy in this relationship, and I'm going to break up with you, and I'm going to get up and leave, and I wish you the best, you're really a nice guy, but I'm just not ready for this."  Boring.  She hated him, but broke up with him in a mature fashion.  Not interesting to watch.  No payoff as a viewer.

Questioning or making judgements on the sex misses the whole point.  Of which is, what will happen if Sam is stuck in a relationship where she is unhappy.  3 weeks/3 months or 2 times or 10.  It doesn't matter.  Those details are there just to set stakes.

 

Most TV relationships explode in a spectacular manner.  I don't understand why it shouldn't be the same case for this show.

 

[xwordfanatik]

@qqererer, great post.

I like stand-up comedy a lot.  Better Things, to me, shows how absurd people & life can be.  It's not out to change the world.

It's entertaining.  

[possibilities]

I agree that drama or comedy or whatever the show is sets up a premise and lets it play out. But when we see the premise play out, are we supposed to like what we see just because it's there? Why is being disgusted or outraged an illegitimate response? Provocative theater can make us laugh, or it can make us think or cry or react in any number of ways. Why is finding it funny is the only OK reaction?

I often like absurdist humor, but to me this wasn't absurd, it was abusive. Having a bystander cheer or applaud for her didn't make it funny (for me), it made it even more disgusting. I wound up being sympathetic to a guy who I didn't even like a tiny bit, and finding Sam obnoxious as hell.

I don't necessarily mind a show portraying obnoxious behavior; sometimes that can be funny or cathartic or interesting in some way, but I didn't find this particular instance to be so. To each their own.

[QQQQ]

In this case (for me) the character's choices are affecting the entertainment value of the product. Being unpredictable just to be unpredictable is, well, boring. 

 

The writers are capable of (ahem) better things. I think they really failed to flesh out the guy's response. I wish he had called her out moreso instead of Sam getting the last word. I also didn't think it was so bad that he asked about her satisfaction - I'm old enough to remember when that didn't matter to guys (and so is Sam).

Edited September 24, 2017 by QQQQ

[possibilities]

A genuine confrontation might have been interesting and funny, now that I think of it. Having Sam go on a one sided rant was kind of a lost opportunity.

[ProudMary]

In the first season, I wasn't crazy about the first two episodes but thought that I'd give the series a chance to find itself.  By the third episode, it had done so IMO and I enjoyed the bulk of the rest of the season's episodes.
Here we are in S2 and the same thing seems to be happening.  The first two episodes IMO have not been enjoyable.  I really didn't like the way Sam addressed Duke's concerns about her Grandma's mortality.   
I'm giving the series a chance with Ep. 3.  If it too sucks, I'm out for good.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

A genuine confrontation might have been interesting and funny, now that I think of it. Having Sam go on a one sided rant was kind of a lost opportunity.

Exactly.  Not liking the first segment doesn't mean I (or we) as a viewer don't understand sketch comedy.  Or the benefit of exaggeration.  Or humor.  I normally do like this show even when I'm not laughing.  I'm probably one of the few who did enjoy last week for the story if not the humor. 

It's subjective and I couldn't get into her POV.  It'd be one thing if she were presented as a little off in that exchange but the clapping observers seemed to suggest we were supposed to sympathize with her POV.

[DiabLOL]

4 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

 the clapping observers seemed to suggest we were supposed to sympathize with her POV.

Perfectly said. It really annoyed me.

[scrb]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Exactly.  Not liking the first segment doesn't mean I (or we) as a viewer don't understand sketch comedy.  Or the benefit of exaggeration.  Or humor.  I normally do like this show even when I'm not laughing.  I'm probably one of the few who did enjoy last week for the story if not the humor. 

It's subjective and I couldn't get into her POV.  It'd be one thing if she were presented as a little off in that exchange but the clapping observers seemed to suggest we were supposed to sympathize with her POV.

I don't buy that it was some sitcom-ey scene, where it's like some standup comic riffing or tossing out funny lines.

First of all, Louis doesn't seem like he'd want to resort to standard sitcom tropes.  He thinks he's too good for that.  This show and Louie both have narratives, attempt to develop characters, even those who are only in a few eps.  He's going to suddenly throw in some sitcom setup followed by one-liners?

Second, the things she said have been done by several comics over and over again, about the pussyfication of the culture, being too sensitive.  Comics of all political persuasions.

It's not something that has to be repeated again in this show, unless they're out of ideas.  Poor Sam!  She can't have a good love life because men these days are crying too much about the sand in their vaginas!

Come up with something better, if you're going to call the show Better Things.

[Jazzy]

Quote

I'm viewing this show as a comedy and not making direct parallels to actual real life.

 

It's sketch comedy. written by people who are comics, who's writing style is to take a premise, find an angle, add stakes, and take it to an extreme conclusion wherever it may go.

If the characters were good people who made reasonable choices, it would be boring to watch and wouldn't explore interesting crevices of human behaviour.

Fictional people making imperfect choices.  It makes for interesting  TV.

People see 10x3 weeks and say  "There is a huge, gaping chasm between "give him a chance" and falling into bed with him 10 times in 3 weeks.  Once or twice, maybe (not an obligation, but it happens), but 10?", I see the same thing and say "Ok, I don't know why, but for whatever reason, she is seriously invested in this relationship."

It's an absurd premise ready for exploration.  I choose not to make a judgement, but instead just watch what happens.  It's no different from going to an improv show, and the actors asking for the most ridiculous suggestions from the audience.  It's futile to question why an astronaut would go see a dentist in an amusement park.  That's not the point. The whole point is to see what happens if an astronaut goes to see the dentist at an amusement park.  And as a viewer, I have to be open to the possibility that the astronaut could go see the dentist at the amusement park for something other than dentistry.  If anything I hope that is what happens.  Anything unpredictable is welcome.

So having a rant in a parking lot with an audience where she unloads on the guy is great.  It's different, it's interesting.  No, it's not mature, not it's not grown up, but it's a hell of a lot more interesting than the two of them still in the restaurant saying to him, "you know that last conversation with my friends didn't sit well with me, and I'm thinking that I'm not happy in this relationship, and I'm going to break up with you, and I'm going to get up and leave, and I wish you the best, you're really a nice guy, but I'm just not ready for this."  Boring.  She hated him, but broke up with him in a mature fashion.  Not interesting to watch.  No payoff as a viewer.

Questioning or making judgements on the sex misses the whole point.  Of which is, what will happen if Sam is stuck in a relationship where she is unhappy.  3 weeks/3 months or 2 times or 10.  It doesn't matter.  Those details are there just to set stakes.

 

Most TV relationships explode in a spectacular manner.  I don't understand why it shouldn't be the same case for this show.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Sam has done some things in the past that were questionable and she does tend to be very direct with people but before the parking lot scene at least I understood where she was coming from. I don't expect her to be perfect because we all know no one is but some basic human decency would be good. I hate that they painted the rant as if she was being "honest" with him so that makes her brave. If she really wanted to be honest she could have let him know at least a week or two after they started going out that she wasn't interested. But she let it drag on. It might be the guy's fault that he didn't pick up on the signals she was giving off but when he tried to bring it up she could have acted like an adult and let him know that things were not working out for her. Yelling at him in public and insulting him as if the whole situation is his fault and she had no part in it doesn't make for an engaging character. It just makes her a really shitty person and one that up until that scene I could at least relate to. When she called him a dick at the end when he drove out of the parking lot that was the last straw (not to even mention that woman clapping??) I was already in stunned mode that she was acting like this and proud of her behavior but her calling him a dick after what she just did put me over the edge. I also disagree that you couldn't have had an exchange between them discussing their relationship without drama and ranting and not made it interesting. That's where the writing comes in. You can make anything interesting with witty dialogue and humor which is why I enjoyed this show in the first place. This is just laziness..not being unpredictable. I am disappointed in this show if this is the direction they are going with her character. It's a shame because I was really enjoying it and since Season 2 it seems to have given up on itself. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Jazzy
new post

[TaylorTalk]

2 hours ago, Jazzy said:

I'm sorry but I disagree. Sam has done some things in the past that were questionable and she does tend to be very direct with people but before the parking lot scene at least I understood where she was coming from. I don't expect her to be perfect because we all know no one is but some basic human decency would be good. I hate that they painted the rant as if she was being "honest" with him so that makes her brave. If she really wanted to be honest she could have let him know at least a week or two after they started going out that she wasn't interested. But she let it drag on. It might be the guy's fault that he didn't pick up on the signals she was giving off but when he tried to bring it up she could have acted like an adult and let him know that things were not working out for her. Yelling at him in public and insulting him as if the whole situation is his fault and she had no part in it doesn't make for an engaging character. It just makes her a really shitty person and one that up until that scene I could at least relate to. When she called him a dick at the end when he drove out of the parking lot that was the last straw (not to even mention that woman clapping??) I was already in stunned mode that she was acting like this and proud of her behavior but her calling him a dick after what she just did put me over the edge. I also disagree that you couldn't have had an exchange between them discussing their relationship without drama and ranting and not made it interesting. That's where the writing comes in. You can make anything interesting with witty dialogue and humor which is why I enjoyed this show in the first place. This is just laziness..not being unpredictable. I am disappointed in this show if this is the direction they are going with her character. It's a shame because I was really enjoying it and since Season 2 it seems to have given up on itself. 

There is the argument that she's a terrible written character that is making season two worse. She's a bad person behaving badly, and that's the reason why one should stop watching the show, but there are shows like House and Breaking Bad and Californication.

Those characters are terrible people, trying to be good, and toma certain extent, they have to fail at that over and over and over again, or else it would be just a three episode arc.

I find that interesting, well... not necessarily. Love Silicon Valley, but getting tired of them building up, only to have to start all over again.

Better Things is in act two, so I'm going to give it a chance. If it act threes, I'll be happy to never watch it after that, like Homeland. Happy to leave that show after the end of season 1.

If she were a real person, her behaviour is absolutely un justified. I'm having trouble understanding why a character should be held to the same standard.

[BingeyKohan]

I really do like this show and Adlon herself -- and Margaret Lyons of the Times (who I trust) was rhapsodic about this entire season, having already screened the whole thing -- but I hope this is the last episode where almost all Sam does for the (less than) half hour is stare plaintively. She had a burst of being an active character in the beginning, with her (seemingly not entirely justified) rant at her date, then she was pretty passive the rest of the episode. Hopefully that moment of reflection at her cheap seaside motel will inspire a ... less impressionistic rest of the season. I can be in for a half-hour show that's like a sitcom version of ambient music, but I can also understand the feeling that there's not enough pay-off.

[Nancypants]

On 9/22/2017 at 6:07 PM, QQQQ said:

Hated the parking lot rant. If it had been a man belittling a woman like that I don't think anyone would be applauding. And her assigning him female pronouns as a form of humiliation?  What does that say about her perspective of women? Boo indeed.

I loved the parking lot rant so much. Welcome to my world Sam.

[susan vance]

I thought Sam's parking lot rant was cathartic but not necessarily a moment where Sam was in the right - I think she was expressing frustration with how she'd let herself fall into this non-relationship, one she saw the beginnings of again at her friend's party. Her use of the word "nice" makes sense to me -it connotes a kind of compliance, a forced pleasantness and do-what-you-need-to- make-it-work that women are often conditioned into performing.  It's very different from kindness, which comes from a more authentic, altruistic place. Sam was being "nice" - trying to give the guy a chance, find ways to make it work - and also tremendously unkind. 

[Soobs]

On 9/23/2017 at 6:57 PM, scrb said:

 

Maybe this show and Louie are about how great single parents are, how difficult their lives are, but they will raise great kids and also be stupendous people, who are too punk rock for anything they deem BS.

I think this is the intention however, to me, she is coming across as a mean, entitled, rich person and I am pretty damn sick of those types. I really am having a hard time rooting for her.

[himela]

This show is all about people being not perfect and I love that.

We should consider how hard it is for women Sam's age to date someone who is not married/ weird/an @&$# etc etc. Society expects women to be coupled or else they must lack something. Sam felt she had to follow this rule but that guy wanted to give little and take back much. Good for her for calling him out but she shouldn't have done it in public.

Her leaving the party like that: There has to come a day where we decide to ignore society's rules and put ourselves first. Good for her.

She showed her wealth is her kids.

[scrb]

4 hours ago, himela said:

This show is all about people being not perfect and I love that.

We should consider how hard it is for women Sam's age to date someone who is not married/ weird/an @&$# etc etc. Society expects women to be coupled or else they must lack something. Sam felt she had to follow this rule but that guy wanted to give little and take back much. Good for her for calling him out but she shouldn't have done it in public.

Her leaving the party like that: There has to come a day where we decide to ignore society's rules and put ourselves first. Good for her.

She showed her wealth is her kids.

It's especially tough for an older woman if she had bratty daughters, is something of a bitch herself and sounds like Bobby Hill.  :D

Edited October 14, 2017 by scrb

[himela]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

It's especially tough for an older woman if she had bratty daughters, is something of a bitch herself and sounds like Bobby Hill.  :D

I don't consider her a bitch. She has had moments when she was mean and moments I adored her just like all of us have our moments. No person is perfect or awful all the time.

[himela]

Actually I think that every one of us is or has the potential to be as bad as Sam in Better Things or make bad choices like her. Sam is decent most of the times when she acts socially with other people just like most of us do. But are we the same when we are in the privacy of our house? Do we never fight with our loved ones? Do we never have bad habits? Do we never have bad behavior? Of course we do, but we are not in people's houses that's why we don't see these things. We see Sam during her every day life, when she wakes up, how she interacts with her kids, where nobody is supposed to see her. Of course she is annoying, over the top at times, aggrivating, repulsive etc. But so are we at times, that's what I'm saying. And seeing her like that I feel much better because I don't try to be perfect and I don't want to be perfect to satisfy strangers. I feel close to her in her imperfections that are my imperfections as well.

[Jeanne222]

I love Sam.  She is responsible for a job,  family, two big houses and three young daughters.  An absentee ex husband who the girls seem to really like and would love to spend some time with.   Dogs dying and mothers peeing in the book store.  Sam needs a little fun in her life and if she wants to have some on a weekend well GO Sam!

To me Sam is a beautiful butterfly trapped in a glass jar.  Let me out...let me out!