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S04.E03: Miscellaneous

AmandaPanda

By AmandaPanda
in Halt And Catch Fire [V]

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Cramps

Cramps

Oh man, Joe in "Joe mode" pitching Hailey was truly hilarious! I had to pause the DVR I was laughing so hard. 

Lots of good stuff this episode and the conflict they've laid out for this season is really promising. 

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ketose

ketose

Donna is apparently the Big Bad this season, sort of like last season. Now she's erratic and paranoid. Gordon's mystery illness is in full remission (unless that's why he has to take cabs) and Cameron is so self-absorbed she didn't notice a giant box blocking her rear window. Joe is the same, being a muse to creative people and then ending up behind a more successful version of the same technology.

Maybe there will be some bloodshed to spice up the season. I vote for Tom.

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LotusFlower

LotusFlower

18 minutes ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

No big observations or thoughts on the plot, but I am not a fan of the green tinged camera work in the shots at Donna's workplace nor the yellow infused ones at Joe's. What's up with that? Is it just my tv?

No, it's not your tv.  I noticed the artsy camera work last week, too.  

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minamurray78

minamurray78

"You wanna low-ball your own daughter??" lol. Seriously Gordon. But I loved that he came around. And told off Donna.

Damn, Donna used to be my favourite, and they've turned her into the baddie. I don't know if the actor is choosing to sound fake, but it's starting to annoy.

Whatever happens between Joe and Cameron just... no more unexpected bullshit at the end. Let the characters have grown a bit.

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Suzysite

Suzysite

I thought Comet was a work in progress in beginning stages, so it was surprising when Donna's co-worker/nemesis found it online already and brought it to her attention.    Yeah, Donna totally stole that idea from Gordon, and only had a twinge of regret when she found out it's Haley's. 

Is Joanie pregnant?   There were tears at the 'kiss that baby' speech.   And Joanie doesn't seem like a sentimental type.

Cameron drives me crazy.  She takes it upon herself to preview her game, and is all verklempt when the reviews are terrible.   There was a reason Atari(?) didn't want it out yet, Cam.   Ego out of control.    And the box on the car thing...saw it coming a mile away.   I'd be more shocked if she actually did something that was logical and responsible.

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dubbel zout

dubbel zout

12 hours ago, ketose said:

Gordon's mystery illness is in full remission (unless that's why he has to take cabs)

That's exactly why he has to take cabs. He used to have a driver, but I guess he got rid of him when things got bad at the company, though after selling it, I'd think he and Joe have a decent cushion.

5 hours ago, Suzysite said:

Is Joanie pregnant?   There were tears at the 'kiss that baby' speech.   And Joanie doesn't seem like a sentimental type.

I took that as Joanie finally seeing Donna as a person, not just as her annoying mother. And maybe starting to understand that it can be difficult to be a working mother (or parent). Joanie is finally growing up a bit.

1 hour ago, Cramps said:

Why did Cameron throw out all her boxes at the end? What was the deep significance of that? I didn't get that. 

Getting rid of her old life? Joe told her she had more ideas in her, so she should let go of Pilgrim and move on. Of course Cameron would do something overly dramatic like throw everything away instead of just giving herself a mental shake and start anew.

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magdalene

magdalene

Oh Gordon.  Why not let your teenage daughter make 20 k for something terrific she came up with?  Just put the money into an account for her future like to help with college or something.  But don't low ball your own child for crying out loud.

That being said that whole scene was very funny.  This cast works so well together, you can tell they are enjoying each other.

Well, I am hoping Cameron and Joe are in a place where they can make it work somehow.  Since this is the last season I don't want to see misery and relationship implosions.  

I want to remember all these characters on a positive note.

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ketose

ketose

4 hours ago, Cramps said:

Why did Cameron throw out all her boxes at the end? What was the deep significance of that? I didn't get that. 

I'm guessing it's her shameful collection of Japanese tentacle porn.

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CanadaPhil

CanadaPhil

(edited)
5 hours ago, Cramps said:

Why did Cameron throw out all her boxes at the end? What was the deep significance of that? I didn't get that. 

In the same way that she ended up admitting that playing DOOM was great and "cathartic", dumping all of the boxes without even so much as opening up a single one of them was a simple emotional release. 

She is completely moving on from her past 5 odd years in Japan without a second thought. 

Edited by CanadaPhil
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ketose

ketose

2 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

In the same way that she ended up admitting that playing DOOM was great and "cathartic", dumping all of the boxes without even so much as opening up a single one of them was a simple emotional release. 

She is completely moving on from her past 5 odd years in Japan without a second thought. 

Why not? For the purpose of HACF, whatever she did during her marriage and career in Japan was apparently irrelevant. I guess there's a new wardrobe coming, too.

1 hour ago, attica said:

I'm really enjoying Lee Page's work. He's playing five different things besides the text. 

I think it's Lee Pace.

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AllyB

AllyB

(edited)

I'm hating what they are doing to Donna. Donna respected the hell out of Cameron's vision and creativity. She knew she was a genius and was open about her admiration of her ability from the first time she engaged with her work in season 1. Donna loved Mutiny and worked her ass off for it, single-handedly keeping the company afloat over and over again, repeatedly sinking her and Gordon's family money into it. Without Donna Mutiny would not have lasted 6 months and all Donna ever wanted was recognition from Cameron of her vital work in the same way that she recognised Cameron's contribution. But Cameron was a pathetic baby who could not only not stand to acknowledge that someone else was was partly responsible for any success her company achieved, but she actively insisted on following paths that hurt it. She knew that Donna and Gordon had uprooted their whole lives and that of their daughters', sunk every cent of their considerable savings into her company, both focussed their own considerable talents into her vision and let her live in their house for at least a year but she kept insisting that everything be run by her rules even when it damaged the company and hurt the Clark's financial security.

I don't blame Donna at all for lying to Cameron in order to keep the company running smoothly. Sure, what Donna should actually have done was quit Mutiny as soon as she realised that Cameron had no business sense who wasn't willing to co-operate with anyone and would undermine her every step of the way. But she didn't because she believed in Cameron and her creativity. She saw her as an absolute genius and wanted to be her partner. She risked her family's money because of that belief and had Mutiny failed due to bad luck, corporate sabotage or some other genius doing similar better or cheaper she would have accepted that. But she couldn't accept Cameron's tantrums destroying the business. She didn't respect Cameron as a business owner because Cameron was not deserving of respect as a business owner. Cameron destroyed Mutiny, no-one else. Donna made bad decisions at the end but the only right path for her to follow would have been to have walked away sooner and let Cameron run it into the ground by herself.

Then years later Donna still respects Cameron's ability so much that she wants to work with her again. She shares her idea with her and Cameron pushes her out, then does nothing with the idea, despite telling Joe she was working remotely. And Donna is somehow the bad guy for pulling herself together and making a success out of her life? And the show is making it absolutely clear that Donna is the bad guy. The writing is making her the bad guy. The other main characters are so contemptuous of her because they think of her as the bad guy. Bishé is even playing her like the bad guy most of the time. I just hate it. My only hope is that the new partner in her firm that she's so paranoid about, actually respects her and has a massive crush on her (sending her Cameron's terrible review was a hint at that) and they end the series as a successful and happy power couple. While Cameron continues to think of herself as a great genius creator in her own mind while the rest of the world has a different opinion.

Outside of that, I think Gordon was absolutely right about Hayley working with Joe. Everything he said to Joe about him pushing people and Hayley not being ready to work with him was on the money. Hayley is either 14 or 15 depending on the year it is, she should be nowhere near Joe as a co-worker. He damages everyone around him and he'll destroy Hayley. He won't mean to, but he will. I'm the same age as Hayley and I know how my will would have been over-powered if I worked with a man like that at that age and it will colour her view of herself and the world for ever. And then Joe is just as big a baby as Cameron when things don't go his way. He literally set fire to the first shipment of the Giant because it matched his original vision rather than what Cameron came up with. He dicked his last underling about so much that he killed himself. An experienced adult would want to be extremely careful of working with Joe, a child should be kept far away from him. 

Edited by AllyB
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tljgator

tljgator

Is "Pilgrim" supposed to be some kind of "Oregon Trail" / "Myst" hybrid (since we know this tiny group really invented everything important & worth remembering about computing)? Really liked this episode, especially Gordon's interaction with Cam and how that impacted his interaction with Hailey. Also appreciated Gordon being the voice of the audience and speaking some truth about Cam & Joe (even if his train metaphor went off the tracks a bit by the end).

I guess I should stop hoping Joe washes his hair until the "Singles" look goes by the wayside, but I did chuckle at the pornado popping up on the screen, since that was a pretty regular occurrence in the mid 90s. 

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qtpye

qtpye

On Sunday, August 27, 2017 at 0:05 AM, Auntie Anxiety said:

No big observations or thoughts on the plot, but I am not a fan of the green tinged camera work in the shots at Donna's workplace nor the yellow infused ones at Joe's. What's up with that? Is it just my tv?

Because everything was tinted green in the nineties...yeah, I got nothing, except sometimes showrunners get emboldened (not a real word) to try out new things in the final season.

On Sunday, August 27, 2017 at 2:25 AM, minamurray78 said:

"You wanna low-ball your own daughter??" lol. Seriously Gordon. But I loved that he came around. And told off Donna.

Damn, Donna used to be my favourite, and they've turned her into the baddie. I don't know if the actor is choosing to sound fake, but it's starting to annoy.

Whatever happens between Joe and Cameron just... no more unexpected bullshit at the end. Let the characters have grown a bit.

 

On Sunday, August 27, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Suzysite said:

I thought Comet was a work in progress in beginning stages, so it was surprising when Donna's co-worker/nemesis found it online already and brought it to her attention.    Yeah, Donna totally stole that idea from Gordon, and only had a twinge of regret when she found out it's Haley's. 

Is Joanie pregnant?   There were tears at the 'kiss that baby' speech.   And Joanie doesn't seem like a sentimental type.

Cameron drives me crazy.  She takes it upon herself to preview her game, and is all verklempt when the reviews are terrible.   There was a reason Atari(?) didn't want it out yet, Cam.   Ego out of control.    And the box on the car thing...saw it coming a mile away.   I'd be more shocked if she actually did something that was logical and responsible.

Thank you.  It bothers me that Donna is so damn needy when it comes to Cam.

Cam blames Donna for the death of Mutiny, but as you rightly pointed out, Mutiny would not have lasted six months under Cam's ego driven tyranny.  They paid engineers with shares and Donna sank all her families savings into it, but Cam always acted like no one else's opinion mattered but her own.  Also, her supposed genius was a bust.  She produced one mediocre game that most of the clients got bored with quickly...Donna was the one who recognized the potential of Community.

That being said...I hate this Donna.  When she grabbed the mike at the conference, I physically cringed.  Just accept Cam does not want to be your friend and move on.

I hated her standing in her beautifully appointed house and offering everyone last minute pizza.  Donna was never cold like that..she always had a natural warmth.  She then accidentally outs a pregnancy and I have to hear about howher brat of a daughter was the most wonderful thing in her life, while she is going to openly compete with nonbrat smart daughter.

I kinda love Gordon now...something I never thought I would say in the first season.

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ganesh

ganesh

(edited)

I'm wondering if the point with Donna is that the work environment is grinding her down and that's why she's acting like that. I thought she was being smug in the first episode, but she's dealing with people who want her money and promising certain results and they're not delivering. She has to be tough in the boardroom because she's the only woman. I didn't think yelling at the group was that harsh either. They were putting out a poor quality development. 

The show is wrong it portraying her as a bad guy imo.

One thing I would push back on is that she shouldn't have yelled at Gordon at the restaurant. He was there to tell her about the daughter because it actually just happened. 

I'm hoping Hailey will give back as good as she gets when Joe starts being Joe.

It looks like Pilgrim is some type of Myst game too to me. But taking you back to start of the game as the reward for solving the puzzle is ridiculous. I take her point that FPS isn't the be all and end all in gaming, and I love puzzle games, but come on.

Wasn't her first game a success though?

Edited by ganesh
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CanadaPhil

CanadaPhil

Her first 4 games (I think it was?) were a BIG success for Atari, so much so that they centered their entire booth and afterparty around the release of Space Bike III.. or IV? in the Comdex '90 episode.

 

Note.. The Atari "Space Bike" franchise is not real and was just made up for the show.

 

But, I'm pretty sure I recall the S-Printer boys trying to sell their thing in mail order catalog ads back in the day though... or, I just made that up. :D

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scowl

scowl

On 8/26/2017 at 9:05 PM, Auntie Anxiety said:

No big observations or thoughts on the plot, but I am not a fan of the green tinged camera work in the shots at Donna's workplace nor the yellow infused ones at Joe's. What's up with that? Is it just my tv?

There is also ridiculous amounts of diffusion (probably a fog filter) that makes any light source veil the whole image. Come on, guys. This looks amateur.

Al least this season we don't have an actor crammed into a tiny corner of the frame surrounded by empty space. Mr. Robot has that style to itself now.

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whiporee

whiporee

I think if you're going to talk about Donna, though, you have to talk about what she did to Cameron last season, which was conspire to take what Cameron's brain (and Donna's money) had created and steal control of it from her. Because she was greedy and misinformed, she made Cam's actual work subservient to Donna's ambition. It was a clear choice she made to betray her partner, and she went ahead with it even after Cam a) said it wouldn't work and b) said she would leave the company if they went through with it. Her goal was to force Cameron's creativity to do what she wanted -- playing out her own insecurities as an engineer by punishing someone who was simply better. I don't like to quote Ayn Rand's stuff because it makes people think I'm one of her crazy followers, but it's pretty much the plot of The Fountainhead -- less talented people trying to corral the more talented ones into doing what they want. 

Cam doesn't care about the money. She wants to create, and have her creations appreciated. And she knew her creating wasn't ready yet. Donna, and I think you could see this starting as soon as big money became a possibility with Mutiny, saw "success" as validating her life/career. And that's fine, except that she wanted to use Cam's talent to get there, and in the process sabotaged Cam's work. 

I think Cam is selfish and immature and all those bad things, but she also brings the ability to create to the table. What Donna brings is the ability to -- I don't know. She's got interpersonal skills and she's used them, but the fact that she's still willing to force creatives to do her bidding is, to me, a pretty natural character progression. Ever since the boardroom, she's been okay with using creative people and their ideas to promote her own version of success. I don't think this is a new development, because she's always been looking for self-validation, and she decided money was it. She's just doing what she's always done, just in a more direct way.  

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dubbel zout

dubbel zout

9 hours ago, whiporee said:

Donna brings is the ability to -- I don't know.

Donna is able to help translate ideas into usable products, and now she funds people who want to make those products. Just because she's on the more craven side of the equation doesn't make her bad. She's taken advantage of Cameron, no doubt, but it's not as if Cameron hasn't taken advantage of Donna: her patience, her goodwill, her trust in Cameron's talent. Donna was the one sinking her savings into Mutiny, not Cameron, yet Cameron continually refused to make even the smallest adjustment to her ideas because she saw that as some major, untenable creative compromise. Guess what, Cameron: You're not at the point you get to dictate that sort of thing. It has to be earned, especially given you want people to play the game. That was a big part of the problem with Pilgrim and Atari.

And I think Cameron does care about money, and it validates her as much as it does Donna. It's a different sort of validation for Cameron, though. Money gives Cameron faith in herself; it proves her ideas have worth. 

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CanadaPhil

CanadaPhil

Future Speculation...

So, will Donna go down the path of CRUSHING her brilliant daughter's spirit for ummmm... you know... crossing her in her drive to do whatever it is that still motivates Donna?

I think yes.

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qtpye

qtpye

3 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

Future Speculation...

So, will Donna go down the path of CRUSHING her brilliant daughter's spirit for ummmm... you know... crossing her in her drive to do whatever it is that still motivates Donna?

I think yes.

Since the show is obsessed with giving Donna the villain edit, maybe will see her laughing while drinking a martini made of Hailey's tears.

 

15 hours ago, whiporee said:

I think if you're going to talk about Donna, though, you have to talk about what she did to Cameron last season, which was conspire to take what Cameron's brain (and Donna's money) had created and steal control of it from her. Because she was greedy and misinformed, she made Cam's actual work subservient to Donna's ambition. It was a clear choice she made to betray her partner, and she went ahead with it even after Cam a) said it wouldn't work and b) said she would leave the company if they went through with it. Her goal was to force Cameron's creativity to do what she wanted -- playing out her own insecurities as an engineer by punishing someone who was simply better. I don't like to quote Ayn Rand's stuff because it makes people think I'm one of her crazy followers, but it's pretty much the plot of The Fountainhead -- less talented people trying to corral the more talented ones into doing what they want. 

Cam doesn't care about the money. She wants to create, and have her creations appreciated. And she knew her creating wasn't ready yet. Donna, and I think you could see this starting as soon as big money became a possibility with Mutiny, saw "success" as validating her life/career. And that's fine, except that she wanted to use Cam's talent to get there, and in the process sabotaged Cam's work. 

I think Cam is selfish and immature and all those bad things, but she also brings the ability to create to the table. What Donna brings is the ability to -- I don't know. She's got interpersonal skills and she's used them, but the fact that she's still willing to force creatives to do her bidding is, to me, a pretty natural character progression. Ever since the boardroom, she's been okay with using creative people and their ideas to promote her own version of success. I don't think this is a new development, because she's always been looking for self-validation, and she decided money was it. She's just doing what she's always done, just in a more direct way.  

 

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Donna is able to help translate ideas into usable products, and now she funds people who want to make those products. Just because she's on the more craven side of the equation doesn't make her bad. She's taken advantage of Cameron, no doubt, but it's not as if Cameron hasn't taken advantage of Donna: her patience, her goodwill, her trust in Cameron's talent. Donna was the one sinking her savings into Mutiny, not Cameron, yet Cameron continually refused to make even the smallest adjustment to her ideas because she saw that as some major, untenable creative compromise. Guess what, Cameron: You're not at the point you get to dictate that sort of thing. It has to be earned, especially given you want people to play the game. That was a big part of the problem with Pilgrim and Atari.

And I think Cameron does care about money, and it validates her as much as it does Donna. It's a different sort of validation for Cameron, though. Money gives Cameron faith in herself; it proves her ideas have worth. 

The sad thing was there would never had been a Giant without Donna's brilliant piggy backing idea...that Donna seems so far away now.

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CanadaPhil

CanadaPhil

The misty eyed memories of  "Darfing and Gerp you very much" are like days gone bye.

Luckily, Gordon is awesome once again and the girls have always luv'd their daddy to death. Remember "You suck at this!!.. where's Daddy?"

That poor Eggo waffle. Hahahaha.

:D

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ketose

ketose

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Since the show is obsessed with giving Donna the villain edit, maybe will see her laughing while drinking a martini made of Hailey's tears.

 

I think tears are more of a Margarita recipe.

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cinles

cinles

On 8/27/2017 at 3:14 PM, ganesh said:

"You want to lowball your own daughter?!" is one of the funniest lines of the entire series, and then cut to "I'm crushing your head" is absolute gold. 

Am I the only one who thinks Haley is a bit too much of a genius coder? When she was crying at the cafe last week, & then some of the other things she has done made me think of Aspergers.

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cinles

cinles

'Donna is able to help translate ideas into usable products, and now she funds people who want to make those products. Just because she's on the more craven side of the equation doesn't make her bad. '

This is why Chris Rogers said Donna is just like Joe now. But Joe, like Cameron, really doesn't care about money. Donna was raised with money and obviously, her parents thought she married down. I don't think it's just her ego that has grown, but when I saw her in Diane's 'vacation home', I knew she was all about money & power. I hope they put her through a journey where she 'gets back Loretta'.

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ganesh

ganesh

31 minutes ago, cinles said:

Am I the only one who thinks Haley is a bit too much of a genius coder?

She made a fairly standard web page. I would call that coding really. She said as much herself. I can't explain the crying outburst though. I really don't want the show to go too deep into a kid subplot this late in the series. 

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levelhead1us

levelhead1us

On 8/28/2017 at 2:59 PM, tljgator said:

Is "Pilgrim" supposed to be some kind of "Oregon Trail" / "Myst" hybrid (since we know this tiny group really invented everything important & worth remembering about computing)? Really liked this episode, especially Gordon's interaction with Cam and how that impacted his interaction with Hailey.

I agree. I That was absolutely the best part of this episode and it made me go back and watch it several times. Really liked the writing around that scene.

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Moxie Cat

Moxie Cat

(edited)
On August 31, 2017 at 11:45 PM, ganesh said:

She made a fairly standard web page. I would call that coding really.

It looked like the basic straight HTML I learned when I wrote my first site in the late 1990s. But I didn't know anyone who was doing that in the mid-1990s. I was older than Hailey but still in HS/college at that time. Her efforts would have been super-cutting edge to me, had I known her in HS. Guessing that she probably would have had more exposure to coding from her parents and living in San Jose.

And even by the late 1990s, we didn't focus too much on CSS besides setting styles for p's and h1's, etc. Flash was considered more of the cutting-edge, amazing tech we all needed to learn. (Thankfully, that has changed.)

I laughed when the pregnant girl mentioned that title tags didn't always match page content. Gee, really? It took Google about twenty years beyond this episode's time to figure that out and work it into their algorithm. Damn, she was prescient!

Edited by Moxie Cat
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ganesh

ganesh

4 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

It looked like the basic straight HTML I learned when I wrote my first site in the late 1990s. But I didn't know anyone who was doing that in the mid-1990s. I

Me too. I did web pages like that for my undergrad. 

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ketose

ketose

I went to a tech university and they offered web space around 1994 or so. The worst part about that was using VI in a UNIX shell to build an HTML page. Geocities started hosting websites around the same time. After a few years, I was editing pages in Frontpage, which came with Windows 98.

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AllyB

AllyB

Does Comet have any search features? I was under the impression that it was just an index of websites. Gordon had asked her to put them all in Excel but she made a webpage instead, but it's essentially just a list of all the websites Joe had written on post-its. While the project Donna is funding is an early search engine. They seem like two completely different approaches to the same very basic idea, with the index being immediately obsolete in comparison. 

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CanadaPhil

CanadaPhil

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

..... While the project Donna is funding is an early search engine. They seem like two completely different approaches to the same very basic idea, with the index being immediately obsolete in comparison. 

Let's see what Ep. 4 brings...

I am certain Donna will probably be in full gutting of her baby daughter mode... while sipping Cabernet Sauvignon no doubt.

:D

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

On 8/27/2017 at 1:14 PM, magdalene said:

Oh Gordon.  Why not let your teenage daughter make 20 k for something terrific she came up with?  Just put the money into an account for her future like to help with college or something.  But don't low ball your own child for crying out loud.

Gordon is at least a millionaire right? I am pretty sure neither of his kids has to worry about putting money away for school, and that is not even considering how loaded Donna is. I wonder why no one suggested Joe giving her money in exchange for equity.

As for Rover, I don't think they have mentioned it yet but has anyone figured out how to make money off of it?

On 8/28/2017 at 4:42 PM, qtpye said:

Cam blames Donna for the death of Mutiny, but as you rightly pointed out, Mutiny would not have lasted six months under Cam's ego driven tyranny.  They paid engineers with shares and Donna sank all her families savings into it, but Cam always acted like no one else's opinion mattered but her own.  Also, her supposed genius was a bust.  She produced one mediocre game that most of the clients got bored with quickly...Donna was the one who recognized the potential of Community.

I hated her standing in her beautifully appointed house and offering everyone last minute pizza.  Donna was never cold like that..she always had a natural warmth.  She then accidentally outs a pregnancy and I have to hear about howher brat of a daughter was the most wonderful thing in her life, while she is going to openly compete with nonbrat smart daughter.

I am pretty sure Mutiny would have died no matter what just because there was nothing about it, especially community, that couldn't have been easily ripped off by anyone and made better and/or cheaper.

And what the hell was with the pizza, and why was everyone, but Joanie eating it with a knife and fork?

On 8/30/2017 at 7:09 PM, scowl said:

There is also ridiculous amounts of diffusion (probably a fog filter) that makes any light source veil the whole image. Come on, guys. This looks amateur.

Is that why Donna's hair was super shiny (almost sparkly) in every scene? Because that was distracting.

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scowl

scowl

20 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Is that why Donna's hair was super shiny (almost sparkly) in every scene? Because that was distracting.

That's the tons of unrealistic backlighting they're using. I really hate the art direction this season. The fog filter, the blinding lights pointed at the lens, and the sickly green background light makes every episode look like a long dream sequence.

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