S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[screamin]

On 9/9/2017 at 0:53 PM, doram said:

That's a lot of presumably and based on what, exactly? What preparations were made to accommodate the influx of wildlings? Winter came to the North before the rest of the Kingdom so what efforts were made before Winter to accommodate the wildlings, men, women and children, the very old and the impaired, basically all these people who cannot farm for food in the fields that are covered with snow? Even more important ly , why didn't you bring up this important discussion earlier?...

It appears that matters concerning Dany are once again put under extra scrutiny and held to a different standard than everyone else. A topic that should have been raised 2 seasons ago literally only became important once Dany was involved.

Speak for yourself. I've been saying food is going to be an issue for the North since long before Dany came into the picture...and you may check my earlier comments from before this season if you doubt that I have brought this up earlier, and more than once, and not in any relation to Dany. Not everything has to be about character favorites.

Re: the wildlings in the Night Watch: it is canon that the Night Watch has been decimated over the past few seasons, with those lost in the attack in the Fist of the First Men, in a force that is already seriously understrength - but their storerooms were never attacked. So I think it can be assumed they can feed the wildlings they've taken in, just as they would have fed the men who previously died. And yes, I HAVE mentioned that I don't know how the Vale men are being fed, though at least Sansa may draw on the Dreadfort reserves, and at least the Vale can supply them handily, having a friendly leader AND an undisturbed harvest in lands untouched by war. Anamika suggested that Dorne is supplying Dany - but Dorne has just had its rebellious government beheaded by Cersei, and I doubt the twitching headless body has gotten itself organized enough to even decide it still wants to be on Dany's side, let alone start sending caravans of food to her.

Quote

 

I'd say that if Lyanna thought that she should have crowned Sansa Stark, the Stark who won the Battle of Bastards, and not Jon Snow.

She'll be fine.

 

Sure...eventually. But even she, Jon's most faithful fangirl, spoke against his decision to leave to Dragonstone. IMO, it was a stupid move to not bother to keep his even most faithful followers informed that he was alive and not mistreated by Dany, or to inform them of what she had done for him and the North that made him decide to ally with her. And IMO, just as Lyanna, despite being his most faithful follower, still openly expressed her disagreement with him leaving the North, she will express her displeasure about this abdication to Jon, that he never bothered to justify. Jon will have to deal with dissent and upset upon arriving with his queen instead of unity, and that's because he hasn't prepared the way, which is sloppy and causes him completely avoidable problems.

 

On 9/9/2017 at 1:20 PM, Oscirus said:

Not so much a flaw as much as something they don't give a shit about. I believe one of the directors had an interview where they insinuated not giving a damn about the small stuff as long as they were able to maintain their audience.

Truth be told, I'm sure that this won't be an issue next season as the reveal happens and everybody forgets the implications of what jon has done.

Sadly, I agree. There will probably be a few scenes of fuss and agitation between Jon, the Lords and Dany before everyone forgets the whole thing under an ill-conceived but spectacularly filmed battle set-piece.

[arty]

On 9/9/2017 at 1:19 AM, anamika said:

Instead of being pleased that the south is riding north to help them defend it, she is more pissed off that he made decisions without consulting her. Which, as has been explained several times - Jon is the KITN and has the right to make decisions unilaterally

I never presented an argument that Jon is not KiTN or that he does not have the right to make decisions unilaterally. He is (or he was), and he does. I do however understand Sansa's frustration even though I don't necessarily find it helpful or productive that she's complaining about Jon's decision making style, yet again, under the current circumstances. But hey, the girl's only human.

 

On 9/9/2017 at 1:19 AM, anamika said:

this is not the time to write a soliloquy about his long lost siblings

Soliloquy? Ah, hyperbole...the refuge of those without a good or interesting rebuttal ;)

 

On 9/9/2017 at 1:19 AM, anamika said:

Why in the world are you comparing Tyrion asking Jon to lie about his pledge to Dany with Jon sending Sansa a message informing her that his mission was successful and he was coming back to organize the defense of the realm?

I'm not making that comparison at all.  The sentence he says to Jon before the one I paraphrased is, "I'm glad you bent the knee to my Queen." My point was that both Tyrion and Sansa had a similar reaction to the news that Jon had bent to the knee to Dany: why wasn't I consulted before it happened?

 

On 9/9/2017 at 1:19 AM, anamika said:

And yes, she did want to depose Jon and install herself as queen. Only Arya's presence in Winterfell gave her pause because Arya is not going to go along with that shit.

If, as you say, she wanted to depose Jon and install herself as Queen in that scene, and all that was standing between her and this goal was Arya, why didn't she have Arya executed? She's supposedly contemplating one act of betrayal and treachery, why not contemplate & initiate another betrayal in service of the first? Or, are you saying that Sansa's designs on Jon's throne came from Littlefinger & once he was killed, he took those ideas with him?

 No, I don't think the last scene between Sansa and Littlefinger was about Sansa's desire/struggle to be QitN at all. I'm sticking to my interpretation that none of Sansa's actions this season speaks to a desire to depose Jon, and almost all of them speaks to a desire to support his reign & agenda.

I also don't believe that either Stark sister would have actually killed the other or was really in danger of doing so. If Cersei who is far more cold-blooded than either girl couldn't execute Jaime, there's no way one of the Starks was going to end the season as a kinslayer IMO.

On 9/9/2017 at 1:19 AM, anamika said:

Yes, Sansa was really letting Littlefinger know everything. She gave him free reign over Winterfell and often meets with him in Jon's office confiding everything to him. Sansa inadvertently lets LF know about the presence of the letter, which he then gets from Maester Wolkan and plants in his room to manipulate Arya. We see LF meeting Royce and Glover and these are the Lords who now think that Sansa should be queen. LF notices Sansa's discomfort with Brienne swearing to Arya and when Sansa tells him about Arya threatening her, he gets her to send Brienne away. He nearly gets her to depose Jon and execute Arya until she finally catches on that LF is playing her. As for Bran, LF already knows about his 3ER business because 'Chaos is a Laddah!'

Littlefinger wouldn't have called Bran "Lord Stark" or been surprised by his quoting "Chaos is a ladder" or been declaring "none of you knows the truth. None of you was there" during his abbreviated "trial" if Sansa had told him about Bran's powers and new status. I also think that if Littlefinger had known about Bran's powers, he would have tried very hard to create a rift between Bran and Sansa the way that he tried to do with Arya and Sansa once he saw what Arya was capable of. So no, Sansa was not telling him everything.

Sansa doesn't inadvertently let him know about the presence of the letter either. At a stretch Maester Woken does; Littlefinger stores his words away for future reference as is his wont.

Royce has been suspicious of Littlefinger in every interaction that we've seen between the two men. I don't see Littlefinger successfully manipulating him at this point in the story. I think that the point of that montage was to indicate that Littlefinger was leading Arya along, allowing her to see and hear whatever he wanted her to see and hear.

As for Brienne, well, if the S7 script outlines are anything to go by (and I'm not entirely convinced they are), Sansa sent her away to keep her from becoming Littlefinger's pawn. She was outwitting him, not falling for his trap. Maybe Sansa's motivations will be made clear next season if the two women reunite; who knows.

On 9/9/2017 at 1:19 AM, anamika said:

When Sansa states that she is a slow learner, she is not kidding.

She's not kidding, I agree. But she learns, however slowly, painfully, tragically. And I love that. I love that she is completely ordinary among many extraordinary characters and is completely aware of her shortcomings. I've only heard the showrunners speak about their take on Sansa once, in the interview they did with Sophie and Maisie earlier this year. And I found myself agreeing with their take on her -- she seems like a real person, believable because she's flawed in very human, recognizable ways. Throughout the series, she is forced to make hard decisions & gets it wrong sometimes & lives with the often awful consequences of those decisions. And in the process, she learns; that is why I have trouble believing that she was trusted Littlefinger at all this season. As she told him in Moles Town, the physical pain she lives with is a daily reminder of what her trust in him cost her.

 

On 9/9/2017 at 1:19 AM, anamika said:

So yes, Sansa tells Jon that 'only a fool would trust LF' and then proves to us that she is the fool.

The story doesn't support that assessment IMO. We have both Tyrion and Jon state this season that Sansa is no dummy. When the season started and Jon left his kingdom in his sister's (untested, possibly resentful, possibly disloyal) hands, I knew that she wouldn't muck it up and make him regret the decision. I knew she'd wouldn't betray the trust he'd placed in her not because of who she is but because of who he is. Jon Snow is not going to be proven so epically wrong at this point in the story.

Edited September 11, 2017 by arty

[domina89]

On 9/9/2017 at 1:05 PM, Pogojoco said:

The food situation is a flaw in the writing of this show - it's an issue when the show needs it to be an issue and isn't when they need it not to be. 

I think we've figured out the bittersweet ending- Jon and Dany save Westeros from the NK but then everyone starves to death....

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

I think we've figured out the bittersweet ending- Jon and Dany save Westeros from the NK but then everyone starves to death....

Or they survive by eating Drogon and Rhaegal. :)

[screamin]

Or Viserion - The Other Wight Meat. (Sorry.)

[Wulfsige]

I've been wondering what fried dragon egg tastes like.

[freebie]

Quote

My point was that both Tyrion and Sansa had a similar reaction to the news that Jon had bent to the knee to Dany: why wasn't I consulted before it happened?

I'm confused by this on a couple of levels. First, while I agree that Jon could have done a better job to *inform* both Sansa (and the north, generally) and the various members of Danerys's entourage of his decision once made, I don't think he was under any obligation to *consult* with anyone prior to his decision.  In particular, I cannot fathom why Jon would need to consult with Danerys's hand about whether he should bend the knee to her. At that point in time, Tyrion (a) was not in Jon's chain-of-command, and (b) had already made the decision to declare Dany his queen and follow her, so it's not like he'd be particularly objective about Jon's decision. As Tyrion said to Jon, "I would have advised it, had you asked."

Second, I don't think the show has fully explained the impacts of Jon's action, but I believe what we have seen so far is:

• Jon's conversation with Danerys in the previous episode, where he calls her "my queen" and says those who have sworn allegiance to him will come to see her for who she is.
• Jon's "I cannot tell a lie" speech in this episode, where he says "I've already pledged myself to Queen Danerys."
• Jon and Danerys's follow-up conversation while Tyrion is attempting to negotiate, with Jon telling Danerys "You're not like everyone else."
• Jon's Ravengram reporting the basic facts (not on screen, but show-supplied info, so ...) -- Cersei has pledged her forces, Danerys has pledged her forces, and if we survive, I've pledged our forces to Danerys, we're on our way -- and signed in his self-proclaimed capacity as Warden of the North.
• Notably, Sansa simply describes the message as Jon pledging to fight for Danerys, which isn't really what Jon communicated, then extrapolates that "he's bent the knee." Of course, she was talking to Littlefinger at the time and could have been playing him by that point. One can only hope, but the consensus seems to be that Sansa didn't start thinking clearly until Littlefinger led her through the "how does Arya benefit" exercise to the false conclusion that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell.
• Danerys's statement that she's not coming to conquer the north, she's coming to save it.

Basically, it's not clear that Danerys believes all of the north is *now* pledged to her. She appears to understand that she has to prove herself first and that the WWs must be defeated. Even Jon has conditioned the pledge of his forces on their collective survival.  Assuming a sufficient number of people do survive, the northern lords could then acknowledge Danerys as their queen and Jon as Warden of the North, or buck Jon's authority, declare a new KitN, sit out Danerys's pending battle with Cersei, and then decide what to do once there's a decision in the title bout between Cersei and Danerys. Once again, though, there's still the elephant in the room -- Jon's claim to the Iron Throne.

I think there are so many ways they could go about this, and it's killing me that we have to wait so long. With all of the foreshadowing, particularly Jon's unwillingness to withhold information, I'm so looking forward to seeing how he decides to handle the information Sam and Bran are about to drop on him. Who will he share it with, if anyone? Will he just say we don't have time for this, or will he feel like he has to come clean on the eve of battle with the Night King? I'm far more interested in seeing how all of these interpersonal relationships work out than I am in seeing what's sure to be an epic battle. Fingers crossed the show runners don't mess this up!

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, freebie said:

I'm confused by this on a couple of levels. First, while I agree that Jon could have done a better job to *inform* both Sansa (and the north, generally) and the various members of Danerys's entourage of his decision once made, I don't think he was under any obligation to *consult* with anyone prior to his decision.  In particular, I cannot fathom why Jon would need to consult with Danerys's hand about whether he should bend the knee to her. At that point in time, Tyrion (a) was not in Jon's chain-of-command, and (b) had already made the decision to declare Dany his queen and follow her, so it's not like he'd be particularly objective about Jon's decision. As Tyrion said to Jon, "I would have advised it, had you asked."

Second, I don't think the show has fully explained the impacts of Jon's action, but I believe what we have seen so far is:

• Jon's conversation with Danerys in the previous episode, where he calls her "my queen" and says those who have sworn allegiance to him will come to see her for who she is.
• Jon's "I cannot tell a lie" speech in this episode, where he says "I've already pledged myself to Queen Danerys."
• Jon and Danerys's follow-up conversation while Tyrion is attempting to negotiate, with Jon telling Danerys "You're not like everyone else."
• Jon's Ravengram reporting the basic facts (not on screen, but show-supplied info, so ...) -- Cersei has pledged her forces, Danerys has pledged her forces, and if we survive, I've pledged our forces to Danerys, we're on our way -- and signed in his self-proclaimed capacity as Warden of the North.
• Notably, Sansa simply describes the message as Jon pledging to fight for Danerys, which isn't really what Jon communicated, then extrapolates that "he's bent the knee." Of course, she was talking to Littlefinger at the time and could have been playing him by that point. One can only hope, but the consensus seems to be that Sansa didn't start thinking clearly until Littlefinger led her through the "how does Arya benefit" exercise to the false conclusion that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell.
• Danerys's statement that she's not coming to conquer the north, she's coming to save it.

Basically, it's not clear that Danerys believes all of the north is *now* pledged to her. She appears to understand that she has to prove herself first and that the WWs must be defeated. Even Jon has conditioned the pledge of his forces on their collective survival.  Assuming a sufficient number of people do survive, the northern lords could then acknowledge Danerys as their queen and Jon as Warden of the North, or buck Jon's authority, declare a new KitN, sit out Danerys's pending battle with Cersei, and then decide what to do once there's a decision in the title bout between Cersei and Danerys. Once again, though, there's still the elephant in the room -- Jon's claim to the Iron Throne.

I think there are so many ways they could go about this, and it's killing me that we have to wait so long. With all of the foreshadowing, particularly Jon's unwillingness to withhold information, I'm so looking forward to seeing how he decides to handle the information Sam and Bran are about to drop on him. Who will he share it with, if anyone? Will he just say we don't have time for this, or will he feel like he has to come clean on the eve of battle with the Night King? I'm far more interested in seeing how all of these interpersonal relationships work out than I am in seeing what's sure to be an epic battle. Fingers crossed the show runners don't mess this up!

I think it is quite clear that Jon has pledged himself and the North to Danery's.  He called her "my Queen", he bent the knee and he has accepted his demotion from King in the North to Warden of the North.  

I don't think Jon really put any "condition" on it.  I think he is merely stating the obvious fact that if the NK kills everyone in Westeros his placing the North under Dany's rule would be a moot point.  Pledges between 2 kingdoms that have both been annihilated are irrelevant.   

Jon is  was KITN, so he technically didn't need anyone's permission to make decisions.  But the decision to bend the knee to another ruler and place the Kingdom of the North under her control is a decision of such magnitude that it seems almost unconscionable for a King to make without first at least consulting with the Lords.  What makes it worse, IMO, is that Jon had only recently been made KITN, and I don't believe there had even been any discussion about the possibility of surrendering sovereignty to another power.  The Northern Lords are going to be totally blindsided by this and I believe some will view it as treason on Jon's part.  

[MadMouse]

Treason like Glover hinting at overthrowing Jon in front of all the other Lords. The guy's head should be on a pike in front of Winterfell.

[TarotQueen]

On 9/8/2017 at 2:51 AM, bardgal said:

You've no proof anything else was in the leter. No bending the knee, no Lannister army, etc.

Sorry about the android fail above.  I was just trying to clear out a quote I never responded to but it posted and now I cannot seem to edit to delete it or to add a comment ...

[freebie]

Quote

I think it is quite clear that Jon has pledged himself and the North to Danery's.  

Well, but that wasn't my point. I was looking at the current state of affairs from Danerys's perspective, not Jon's. I don't think she expects to just walk in and have every northerner bow down before her. Her world view has changed dramatically because she sees what the real threat to her rule is. Her focus is no longer on how to reclaim the Iron Throne. But before seeing the Night King and his army, she absolutely would have expected everyone in the north to "bend the knee" immediately, regardless of whether Jon had capitulated. I appreciate that kind of character growth (looking at you, Cersei).

At any rate, I don't think the conflict is going to be Danerys vs. the north, not really. I think the real conflict will be Danerys trying to reconcile her desire for the Iron Throne, which has consumed her for so long, with her feelings for Jon when it's revealed that he has a better claim than she does. It will be the reverse of Jon's situation -- he's never contemplated sitting on the Iron Throne and, based on current events, probably hasn't thought much past hoping not to die at the hands of the WWs. I don't think he can even envision a victory, let alone the consequences for the north if they somehow defeat the Night King.

Quote

Treason like Glover hinting at overthrowing Jon in front of all the other Lords. 

Right? I mean, how important is this notion of a KitN to the current bunch of northern lords if they've managed to do without one between Robb and Jon? Then, as soon as they name someone new to the post, they're already plotting his overthrow. I just don't buy that having a KitN is so sacred to them, or that there is a set of ethics and rules the KitN is supposed to live by such that Jon's actions constitute some sort of deep betrayal. They don't even have any recent precedent for how a KitN should act in situations like this. And, during the last big crisis, which pales in comparison to this one, you could argue that the KitN's destruction of a critical alliance paved the way for the Red Wedding, which devastated the north. At least the current KitN's actions have resulted in the *creation* of a critical alliance. For that reason alone, the northern lords ought to cut Jon some slack.

[Oscirus]

23 hours ago, Wulfsige said:

I've been wondering what fried dragon egg tastes like.

I'm more wondering about Dire wolf meat. Someone ask the umbers what they did with the rest of Shaggy dog!

[eastcoastress]

33 pages late but reading through has been a great way to process & decompress after watching the finale 2x (I never rewatch epis so that's a big deal).   I really loved it.  

I loved the chat between Bronn & Jamie (cocks!)

I loved *hard* the moment with Bronn & Tyrion.  I may have teared up there, oddly for me. 

I loved "how do you answer to these charges....LORD BAELISH" There will *never* be enough memes for that. You could fill the citadel with them. 

I loved Arya & Sansa. AND Arya, Sansa & Baelish. And Arya's "I miss him". Don't we all. Yet that one line strikes home once again that it was never about Ned. But how powerful his character & actions determine the course of the story. "In the winter, we must protect ourselves, look after one another." Perfect.

I loved Brienne & The Hound. Their briefest of knowing smiles. Their mutual respect for Arya. And even a grudging one for each other. 

God I loved Drogon's entrance with Dany.  Although I teared up at not seeing 3 dragons flying above, making their beautiful serpentine paths. I loved the little moments and dynamics in the arena. The shared wtf glance from Tyrion to Jamie (about Euron). I love how the show never lets us forget the bond between Jamie & Tyrion, even if they don't share a single scene in forever.  This continues in Tyrion's march to meet Cersie. And the subsequent scene with Lena was just gold. Followed later by Jamie's scene with her. His expressions in just seconds seemed to convey all our built up frustrations with him.  

The snow in King's Landing. Perfection.

The music throughout. Perfection. 

I loved the power & beauty that came with the wall falling. I may have wept for what became of Viserion.  I am way too emotionally attached to show animals. And CGI ones at that! 

I loved Sam & Brandon-now-tree.  Sam's wtf/nervous smile, like, uhm, yeah, okie dokie alrrrrighty then uhm.  "you've seen this in a...vision?"  Camera pans to Brandon holding raven's message. Har!

What didn't I love? Cersei's wig. For the love of all that his holy what in the ever loving fuck is going on there. Every week Dany has another braid but Cersei's hair can't grow an inch?  I 'm sure Qyburn has a potion for that.   I didn't love the amount of time focused on Theon's redemption. I loved Jon's scene with him (and I think Jon's comment about Theon not having to choose; he is both Greyjoy and Stark, will be important for Jon later), I just didn't feel it was *earned* . Which leads to my biggest problem ( and I really have no issue with the incest or all the R+L hubbub, or Jon's pledging to Dany, or Sansa's motivations....although I appreciated reading the pages on those topics).

My biggest problem? PACING.  So much fantastic stuff happened in the finale, even in the penultimate episode. But so much has been rushed due to the short season. I feel this magnificent cast and richly drawn characters had so much more potential. So much more story could have been explained. Character arcs fleshed out more. Motivations connected more. It's not that I need to be spoon fed; in fact I loathe anvilicious work (kind of teetered there with Brandon's exposition during boat sex). But it was clear this season that time was of the essence and I feel our characters & plot suffered.  Too many unbalanced seasons where things moved at a glacier pace (looking at you Dany, in Mereen or any of the several places we were interminably stuck). Or where there'd be an excellent, fulfilling episode but only after waiting through 4 total fillers.  There is no reason this show couldn't have had solid, even writing & pacing throughout. SHAME!   Audiences deserved more. *I* wanted more!

Edited September 16, 2017 by eastcoastress

[GraceK]

3 hours ago, eastcoastress said:

33 pages late but reading through has been a great way to process & decompress after watching the finale 2x (I never rewatch epis so that's a big deal).   I really loved it.  

I loved the chat between Bronn & Jamie (cocks!)

I loved *hard* the moment with Bronn & Tyrion.  I may have teared up there, oddly for me. 

I loved "how do you answer to these charges....LORD BAELISH" There will *never* be enough memes for that. You could fill the citadel with them. 

I loved Arya & Sansa. AND Arya, Sansa & Baelish. And Arya's "I miss him". Don't we all. Yet that one line strikes home once again that it was never about Ned. But how powerful his character & actions determine the course of the story. "In the winter, we must protect ourselves, look after one another." Perfect.

I loved Brienne & The Hound. Their briefest of knowing smiles. Their mutual respect for Arya. And even a grudging one for each other. 

God I loved Drogon's entrance with Dany.  Although I teared up at not seeing 3 dragons flying above, making their beautiful serpentine paths. I loved the little moments and dynamics in the arena. The shared wtf glance from Tyrion to Jamie (about Euron). I love how the show never lets us forget the bond between Jamie & Tyrion, even if they don't share a single scene in forever.  This continues in Tyrion's march to meet Cersie. And the subsequent scene with Lena was just gold. Followed later by Jamie's scene with her. His expressions in just seconds seemed to convey all our built up frustrations with him.  

The snow in King's Landing. Perfection.

The music throughout. Perfection. 

I loved the power & beauty that came with the wall falling. I may have wept for what became of Viserion.  I am way too emotionally attached to show animals. And CGI ones at that! 

I loved Sam & Brandon-now-tree.  Sam's wtf/nervous smile, like, uhm, yeah, okie dokie alrrrrighty then uhm.  "you've seen this in a...vision?"  Camera pans to Brandon holding raven's message. Har!

What didn't I love? Cersei's wig. For the love of all that his holy what in the ever loving fuck is going on there. Every week Dany has another braid but Cersei's hair can't grow an inch?  I 'm sure Qyburn has a potion for that.   I didn't love the amount of time focused on Theon's redemption. I loved Jon's scene with him (and I think Jon's comment about Theon not having to choose; he is both Greyjoy and Stark, will be important for Jon later), I just didn't feel it was *earned* . Which leads to my biggest problem ( and I really have no issue with the incest or all the R+L hubbub, or Jon's pledging to Dany, or Sansa's motivations....although I appreciated reading the pages on those topics).

My biggest problem? PACING.  So much fantastic stuff happened in the finale, even in the penultimate episode. But so much has been rushed due to the short season. I feel this magnificent cast and richly drawn characters had so much more potential. So much more story could have been explained. Character arcs fleshed out more. Motivations connected more. It's not that I need to be spoon fed; in fact I loathe anvilicious work (kind of teetered there with Brandon's exposition during boat sex). But it was clear this season that time was of the essence and I feel our characters & plot suffered.  Too many unbalanced seasons where things moved at a glacier pace (looking at you Dany, in Mereen or any of the several places we were interminably stuck). Or where there'd be an excellent, fulfilling episode but only after waiting through 4 total fillers.  There is no reason this show couldn't have had solid, even writing & pacing throughout. SHAME!   Audiences deserved more. *I* wanted more!

This was a beautiful review. I'm with you about the dragons, my heart hurt for Viserion. I also agree about the difference in pacing this season, but I personally was glad. As much as I love the earlier seasons for the carefully drawn out plots and dialogue, I was also thrilled that FINALLY things were really happening and all these characters were meeting. My absolute favorite episode ever was Spoils of War when Dany finally raised destruction down on the Lannister. I loved Jaimes face  when he heard that Dragon. :)

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, eastcoastress said:

My biggest problem? PACING.  So much fantastic stuff happened in the finale, even in the penultimate episode. But so much has been rushed due to the short season. I feel this magnificent cast and richly drawn characters had so much more potential. So much more story could have been explained. Character arcs fleshed out more. Motivations connected more. It's not that I need to be spoon fed; in fact I loathe anvilicious work (kind of teetered there with Brandon's exposition during boat sex). But it was clear this season that time was of the essence and I feel our characters & plot suffered.  Too many unbalanced seasons where things moved at a glacier pace (looking at you Dany, in Mereen or any of the several places we were interminably stuck). Or where there'd be an excellent, fulfilling episode but only after waiting through 4 total fillers.  There is no reason this show couldn't have had solid, even writing & pacing throughout. SHAME!   Audiences deserved more. *I* wanted more!

I am torn about the pacing. I think that the extended stays of Dany in Mereen and Arya in Braavos were mistakes. Dany should have arrived in Westeros at the end of last season, same with Arya. Dany and Jon's relationship deserved more time to develop. Despite the warp speed of this season, I am glad that the characters are finally moving towards their destinies. As much as I thought that the wight hunt was ridiculous, I thought that finale was the weakest episode, overall. IMO, there was no need to spend 45 minutes on the parley between Dany and Cersei. It could have been wrapped up in half the time. 

[eastcoastress]

19 hours ago, GraceK said:

This was a beautiful review. I'm with you about the dragons, my heart hurt for Viserion. I also agree about the difference in pacing this season, but I personally was glad. As much as I love the earlier seasons for the carefully drawn out plots and dialogue, I was also thrilled that FINALLY things were really happening and all these characters were meeting. My absolute favorite episode ever was Spoils of War when Dany finally raised destruction down on the Lannister. I loved Jaimes face  when he heard that Dragon. :)

Thanks, GraceK!  I didn't expect anyone else to be reading at this point haha, but my long-winded commentary helped me work myself through both praise & frustrations.  I get what you are saying about pace and I should clarify that I love the momentum of this episode (and most of this season's).  My issue is why couldn't every season be this way?!  We could say well, then, there'd only be about 3 seasons! Ha! But with the right storytelling points & character arcs, the same time could have been filled beautifully. More on Olenna, for example. I would have loved to have seen more of her shenanigans and motivations. Jamie's character? Hell ya I wanted more development there.  Tywin could have been stretched out more.  More of Stannis's grammar lessons. SO many characters warranted more time. Plots, more construction.  Relationships more developments.  Certainly there was enough material to fill, allow for quality writing, great pacing,  (the quality actors were already in place), without sacrificing audience investment.  

 

And yes, Jamie's face at hearing that first dragon wing flap. His face told many tales this episode. 

Another thing I forgot to mention--Jon's resemblance to his mother, a detail I love.  I have this completely unscientific,  purely anecdotal theory that the majority of sons resemble their mothers (conversely, daughters resemble their fathers, although usually it's first born daughter following my nonsensical rule which rules out Sansa & Arya even though the latter is totally her dad and the former her mom but I digress).  

[GrailKing]

Found today on freefolk:  Made it my WP in my browser. link to artist :  https://www.instagram.com/jinzillaa/

Edited October 2, 2017 by GrailKing

[GrailKing]

On 9/11/2017 at 3:51 PM, freebie said:

but the consensus seems to be that Sansa didn't start thinking clearly until Littlefinger led her through the "how does Arya benefit" exercise to the false conclusion that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell.

Not my consensus.

She started playing LF in S4, he became he became her enemy  in S6 in Molestown and starts tp play, but not knowing how badly Robb's actions harmed the North finds the North not so forth coming, so she had a choice except Jon's assessment or swallow pride and play; so she played and put just enough carrot in that letter to LF.

In S6-10 she continues the game, when she sits back and Jon is hailed KITN and knowing that LF isn't happy and will be trouble.

In S7 Jon fails to let his thoughts known to Sansa and Davos before they meet the lords, Sansa puts forth her thoughts, which aren't wrong, just public, she gives him good advice, but his own actions shows he's  same Jon that got killed at CB, eventually they came to an understanding. Jon leaves her in charge a shock to her ( yet many see it as her jumping for joy ) only LF and Brienne had smiles, not Sansa.

There is nothing wrong with Sansa confiding info with LF, it's a chess game after all and she isn't giving him anything he doesn't know already; the important stuff she keeps to herself  and LF is giving her info she wants or needs.

The practice in 7-4 wasn't a one off, it was intentional, Arya mentions VOWS and they quickly pan to Sansa who realized those vows could be used against Brienne, so Sansa sends her to KL it's a gamble by her and her body language is the same as the one she had in WF on her wedding night, her wondering if this is a wise choice. LF says keep Brienne close, just as she anticipated and she sends her away, just as he anticipated, it's a gamble, but she removed the piece from both sides of the board, the real gamble is Arya, she's antagonistic towards her and Sansa isn't sure why; and Arya is to willing to kill people who seems to go against Jon, which won't help them.

Then the Arya Sansa bedroom scene and the threats and the dagger, this is where Sansa made a beeline to Bran and they got together, then the final play and lesson. Sansa sits, tapping the scroll, they talk about Danny and Jon , marriage , bending the knee etc. and his last lesson.

Sansa knows Arya doesn't want Ladyship, she knows Arya is fiercely loyal to Jon ( and family ) she listens to LF, her hand goes to her chin, then she starts talking in a hypnotized voice and LF " I play a little game" comes out and LF dies.

Sansa used every lesson he gave her on him: In KL better liar; on the road to the Bloody Gate : Know your strength and weakness, use your assets wisely, 1 man can be worth 10,000  ( LF, Bran, Arya, Lord Royce, Wolcum, her sexuality, etc. ), Fight all your battles first in your mind....everything happening you've seen before and the last one ; sometimes I play a little game.

I never listen to the actors talking about their character, because they are paid to mislead, I watch their body language, listen to their voices and facial expression and words said on screen with other info provided and shown on screen. 

Take out S5 Sansa arc, and it's like her Vale arc, just in Winterfell, she knows his game and she knows who she is; the eldest daughter of Lord Eddard and the Lady Caitlyn...The blood of Winterfell.

Hope S8 goes somewhat well for her.

Edited January 30, 2018 by GrailKing

[Constantinople]

The White Walkers have blasted through the Wall courtesy of Viserion the wight dragon.  This will undoubtedly cause untold misery to thousands of ordinary people.  The people that Jon & Tyrion purport to care about.

The Night King has a wight dragon because Daenerys had to save Jon & the rest of the Magnificent Seven, or however many there were.

Jon & Co. had to be saved because they were on a trek to capture a wight

Jon & Co. were on this trek to convince Cersei that everyone had to band together to fight the Walkers

Cersei had to be convinced because rather than just kill her, the Jon & Tyrion Peacenik train seem to think

•  you can invade a continent without killing anyone, and
•   anyone gives a damn about a few people in the Red Keep getting torched

Good going guys

[ursula]

On 1/7/2019 at 7:06 PM, Constantinople said:

Cersei had to be convinced because rather than just kill her, the Jon & Tyrion Peacenik train seem to think

•  you can invade a continent without killing anyone, and
•   anyone gives a damn about a few people in the Red Keep getting torched

I really really want to believe that Tyrion was deliberately sabotaging Dany in season 7 because at this point, that is the only thing about his so-called counsel that makes sense.

[Colorful Mess]

On 1/7/2019 at 6:06 PM, Constantinople said:

Cersei had to be convinced because rather than just kill her, the Jon & Tyrion Peacenik train seem to think

Or just ignore her for the time being.

[nicepebbles]

Just finished reading all 32 pages after finally getting caught up for S8. My big question after reading all the pages, is it clear from in the books (I haven't read them) that the NK wants/needs a dragon? Some posters made it seem like the NK was waiting for Dany to come with a dragon; like he knew she had the dragons and just had to bide his time. I didn't get that impression at all from any season. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. 

I alternately loved the pacing of this show and hated it. This last episode really brought it home for me. It took fucking forever for anyone to go anywhere S1-S6 but now people traveling like everywhere is around the corner. If not for LF dying, the scene in the Dragon Pit, Tyrion and Cersei together, and boat!sex, I wouldn't think much of this episode. 

LF dying was glorious! He was just terrible and I had no idea, truly, of what his end game would be. I felt like it would be to sit on the Iron Throne with Sansa at his side, which a pipe dream if I ever heard one. 

Besides Sana's line to LF, my favorite line is, "My apologies." The first time I heard it, I was like, "Don't apologize to her!" Then on rewatch, I was laughing. Cersei's face. 

I have no idea if Dany/Jon are an endgame couple or not. Seems like every couple that had extended, multiple romantic scenes are are done for so maybe the way the scene occurred will mean they are the endgame. I feel like I should be upset more over the incest since we're clearly supposed to think it's wrong based on Cersei/Jamie and whole the Targs are shit for many reasons but one is they engage in incest. I'm not though. I'm fine with Dany/Jon. I definitely buy their love story more than his with Ygritte. Hated it. 

If Tyrion's look is about his being in love with her or he's going to betray Dany for Cersei's kid, I will probably lose it. Not everybody has to be in love with Dany. It's unnecessary and kinda feels like if you're not in love with her, she didn't free you, doesn't make you think she's magical because she can walk through fire, no one would follow (if she didn't have the dragons of course). I get feeling guilty for Mycella's and Tommen's death yet come on. This kid ain't even born yet and, though Mycella and Tommen turned out great considering, ain't no way new CerseiSpawn will be a halfway decent human being. She was already a terrible human being when the show started. Now she's much worse. 

Was the reveal of Jon's parentage a surprise to anyone? I say that because I can be slow on the uptake sometimes and I figured it out way back when. 

After everything D&D have done up to this episode and what's left to go, I'm keeping my expectations low. There's a lot to get done in 6/7 episodes. I thought I was pretty settled in my opinions on things, then I read all these pages and was like, "The writing really isn't as good as it could be. Huh." 

[WatchrTina]

On 1/29/2019 at 12:07 PM, nicepebbles said:

Was the reveal of Jon's parentage a surprise to anyone?

The theory of R  + L = J has been around forever so I don't think the reveal of Jon's parentage came as a surprise to many people.  I even feel like I've known forever that Lyanna was not raped  -- that she went with Rhaegar willingly.  I think the shocker was the revelation that Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married.  As such, Jon (née Aegon) is not a bastard born of rape (as was first hinted) nor a bastard born of adulterous lust (as was later suggested) -- he is a true-born son and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  I did not see THAT coming.

[YaddaYadda]

On 1/29/2019 at 1:07 PM, nicepebbles said:

Just finished reading all 32 pages after finally getting caught up for S8. My big question after reading all the pages, is it clear from in the books (I haven't read them) that the NK wants/needs a dragon? Some posters made it seem like the NK was waiting for Dany to come with a dragon; like he knew she had the dragons and just had to bide his time. I didn't get that impression at all from any season. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. 

There is no NK in the books (so far and I don't think there will be one). And after reading Fire and Blood, there are doubts that dragons can cross the Wall at all or want to cross the Wall. So Dany losing a dragon to the Others will probably not be a thing in the books, though I'm sure she will lose one eventually. 

The whole NK business of him waiting for Dany to come with her dragons so that he could get one was just incredibly frustrating to me because we don't really know how he knew he was coming, if he is a greenseer and so on. Maybe it will be answered in season 8.

[FemmyV]

I've been having my own little marathon and rewatched S02E01. Caught yet another mirror, this time having to do with Littlefinger's death.

2:1, there was the "knowledge is power/power is power' scene with LF and Cersei. Remember her order? "Cut his throat."

[lucindabelle]

I am still so confused about the secret marriage. They look happy and innocent. Yet he left a wife and two children for her. We better find out there was something terribly wrong in that first marriage otherwise I just can’t believe this is good news.

[Spartan Girl]

24 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

I am still so confused about the secret marriage. They look happy and innocent. Yet he left a wife and two children for her. We better find out there was something terribly wrong in that first marriage otherwise I just can’t believe this is good news.

Not to mention the wife and kids got brutally murdered by the Mountain

[spaceghostess]

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I am still so confused about the secret marriage. They look happy and innocent. Yet he left a wife and two children for her. We better find out there was something terribly wrong in that first marriage otherwise I just can’t believe this is good news.

Yeah, I, too, would love an explanation, but I feel like they won't bother to elaborate on it in these last episodes, more's the pity.

[Spartan Girl]

I don't think there's much of an explanation needed. Rhaegar wasn't the first man who dumped his wife and kids for another woman and he won't be the last.

[Snowball II]

Rhaegar had an arranged marriage with Elia, but he was in love with Lyanna.  Awful thing to do, but it happens all the time.

[John Potts]

That looked like way too many Unsullied. We started with 4000 (IIRC) and they've taken losses, yet it looked like about 10000 encamped outside Kings Landing.

"Fuck loyalty!" Wow Brienne, never thought I'd hear you say that. Actually, lots of good reunions this episode.

Littlefinger may be a snake, but he was actually right about a Jon/Danny marriage. But while I wanted him to die 3 Seasons ago, his defence was pathetic. This is "The Man with a Plan" who should be able to spin a defence beyond, "I've always loved you!" I would be fine with Sansa not buying it and sentencing him anyway (maybe after consultation with GoogleBran/Arya/Lord Royce), but no matter how surprised he was, he should still be able to come up with something. Surely he "fights every battle in his head, all the time, so he's never surprised"?

Cersei was actually smart (eg. noticing Danny had lost a dragon) - not really her Book character who is so sozzled she's just blundering from one idiocy to another.

Liked that we got to see the End of the wall (in both senses).

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:25 AM, Enigma X said:

So, did the slob kicking Theon’s ass just tire himself out mostly?

My take was that Theon is pretty much so habituated to pain, he barely notices it. We can be pretty sure that Ramsay didn't tie up all Theon's genital nerves and offer him morphine after his "surgery"!

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:51 AM, henripootel said:

Odd that it's Cercei who also understands the heart of the matter.  She can't ever ever support Dany, nor can she oppose her, so let the Night King deal with her first.  Why in god's name would anyone think Cercei would do anything other than this?

Agreed - you can see why Danny might suspect Tyrion of double dealing because it was a fool's errand from the start. Tyrion, more than anyone, should know that.

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 4:09 AM, WatchrTina said:

 I was screaming at the TV when the horn failed to sound as soon as the army of the dead appeared.

Me too! To quote Lord Commander Mormont "You had one job", Hornblower!

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 4:20 AM, Blonde Gator said:

Bronn wants to know what Pod knows that he doesn't.....remember the whores PAYING Pod after his first foray in Littlefinger's establishment, compliments of Tyrion?

I hate to be pedantic*, but they didn't PAY him, they "just" comp-ed him their (ahem) "attentions".

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:52 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Elia was a Martell. I hate this idea that she was a meek, passive person because her health was frail. We have met enough Martells to know that they live by their House's words, why would she be different?

Which is why I believe that in the books, it will be revealed that while Lyanna and Rhaegar will be married, but it be in addition to his marriage to Elia. The Targaryens did practice polygamy for centuries (as well as incest). It would be more likely to fly with the Martells (and the Tower of Joy was in Dorne, so they were probably aware what was happening there) as they're the most sexually progressive of the Seven Kingdoms. It seems unlikely they'd be so supportive if Aegon and Rhaenys had been cut out of the succession (which an annulment would do - it would effectively declare that Elia and Rhaegar's marriage never happened and their children are therefore bastards). 

It will also mean that, in the Books, we will have three competing Targaryen claims for the throne which are each flawed in their own way: Jon (secret marriage), Aegon (dubious identity) and Danerys (barred from the throne due to gender), which seems a very GRRM thing to do.

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 10:43 PM, Allie56 said:

I thought she really was upset, because northern independence was supposed to safeguard the interests of the north. She told him not to go because he'd be expected to bend the knee

Except what did they expect? That Danny would offer her dragons, armies and dragonglass for nothing? At best she would expect an Alliance to depose Cersei, but it seems likely she'd expect them to Bend the Knee. Though honestly, Jon should have told his people before leaving, "We need dragons, dragonglass weapons and the people to wield them. Danerys Targaryen has all three. You chose me to protect the North - if the price of her aid is for me to bend the knee, then that is what I will do." Or at least, send the odd raven about what was happening - particularly when he was "down the (King's) road" at Eastwatch!

Lastly, a minor point about the Starks potentially dying out: the Stark line can continue through Sansa if Jon takes the Iron Throne (whether she's the Warden of the North under the IT or the Queen of the Independent North). If she marries a Northern Lord she'd presumably retain her name and title as Stark, just like Queen Elizabeth II (and her children) are from the House of Windsor and not Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (Prince Philip's original title). I know that Sansa is understandably soured on the idea of marriage after Ramsay, but it might be different if she was the one choosing and was the one "on top" (figuratively speaking).

 *OK, No I don't!