S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Francie]

Does anyone doubt that Bronn spent his time with Pod outlining his demands for switching sides?

"Here, write this down. Can your magic cock do that, by the way? No? Well, remember then, then. I'll make it easy. Four castles and a princess at least as beautiful as .. well, as beautiful as a princess can be.  And 2 bags of gold. No, make that 4 bags of gold. Those are me terms."

[screamin]

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sansa knew that Brienne would step in to protect Arya and that's why she got send away. Because Sansa was really thinking of having Arya taken down:

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/bran-stark-actor-says-cut-scene-wouldve-explained-confusing-game-of-thrones-finale-moment_us_59a5d56ee4b00795c2a26a71

I love how everyone was dragging Arya last episode for threatening Sansa, but Sansa was actively trying to get Arya killed before coming to her senses. Talk about sisterly love!

That's an actor's summary of a scene, not the scene itself. Since Sansa isn't likely to just explain that she wants to murder Arya to their own brother, I'd guess it was more like her telling Bran that Arya's been threatening her and she's scared she may go beyond that, and what can she do to keep from having to act against Arya in her own defense. Not the same thing as 'actively trying to get Arya killed.'

Edited August 31, 2017 by screamin

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

That's an actor's summary of a scene, not the scene itself. Since Sansa isn't likely to just explain that she wants to murder Arya to their own brother, I'd guess it was more like her telling Bran that Arya's been threatening her and she's scared she may go beyond that, and what can she do to keep from having to act against Arya in her own defense. Not the same thing as 'actively trying to get Arya killed.'

Since Sansa was confident enough in Bran's abilities to consult him, she would obviously realize that it would be pointless to lie to Bran.  I think it's a bit of a misstatement that Sansa was actively trying to get Arya killed.  I do think it likely Sansa may have been considering a preemptive strike against Arya, which is only sensible in the context of being aware of Arya's abilities, Sansa being wary and mistrustful of everyone in light of her experiences and the fact that Sansa was unnerved by the discovery in Arya's room and their confrontation -- although I do think Arya's presentation of the dagger confused Sansa and caused her to dig deeper.     

[anamika]

29 minutes ago, screamin said:

That's an actor's summary of a scene, not the scene itself.

That's an actor's summary of a scene he shot that got deleted. Where he says that Sansa wanted to check up on LF before taking an action that she regrets - having her sister killed on LF's say so. Which she nearly decided to do until LF over reaches and brings up Arya wanting to become Lady of Winterfell. And yeah, I think the actor who has the scripts and shot the scene would know more about what they were going for with the Sansa-Arya scenes than me or you.

Quote

“So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she’s like, ‘Oh, s—.’”

Isaac seems pretty insistent in all his interviews that Sansa was going to have Arya killed.

According to Isaac, Bran had an idea of what was going on between Sansa and Arya. He did not need Sansa to tell him that she was planning on having Arya killed - he knows - and he would have stepped in and stopped it if it got that dangerous. But he was allowing the sisters to resolve the conflict themselves and luckily for everyone involved Sansa came to her senses before it was too late.

So, according to the show this is the WF plot:  LF was playing BOTH Arya and Sansa. Sansa refused to listen to Brienne and kept trusting in LF. He got the information from her about where to find the letter and manipulated Arya. Who saw that Sansa really wanted to be queen and threatened to take off her face and expose her to the Northern Lords. Sansa is now nervous about how the weather vane Northern Lords would react and even more nervous about Arya's FM skills. She recognizes that Arya's a danger to her.

LF takes note of Sansa's discomfort with Brienne pledging to Arya, them bonding over sword fighting and Brienne proudly talks about Arya to the Hound signifying their close bond. Instead of confiding all in Brienne, Sansa quickly sends her off to isolate Arya in case she needs to be taken down. Then she gets a raven saying that Jon has bend the knee, which pisses her off and she wants to become queen - but Arya stands in her way. Can she have Arya killed... The question starts to form itself in her mind. If LF had stopped there, maybe he would have succeeded. But his whole game about Arya taking her face to become Lady of Winterfell makes Sansa realize that LF was upto no good either and did not have her best interests at heart. She then goes to Bran for a fact check (For things she already knows, lol!) and decides to kill LF instead of her sister. She calls Arya to her and informs her that this is all LF playing them against each other, they gang up and have him killed. The end.

Edited August 31, 2017 by anamika

[mac123x]

That seems like a pretty good summary of the timeline of events for the WF plot.

 

Sansa in Season 6 - Only a fool would trust Littlefinger

Sansa in Season 7 - Hold my ale...

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

 

Isaac seems pretty insistent in all his interviews that Sansa was going to have Arya killed.

According to Isaac, Bran had an idea of what was going on between Sansa and Arya. He did not need Sansa to tell him that she was planning on having Arya killed - he knows - and he would have stepped in and stopped it if it got that dangerous.

 

By that same token, Bran would surely have stepped in if Sansa had gotten that dangerous toward Arya. But since Sansa came to him instead, I think we can feel confident in saying that neither Sansa nor Arya were in imminent danger of slaughtering each other.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

By that same token, Bran would surely have stepped in if Sansa had gotten that dangerous toward Arya. But since Sansa came to him instead, I think we can feel confident in saying that neither Sansa nor Arya were in imminent danger of slaughtering each other.

And true to their inherently different styles, both reached their conclusions in their own ways.

[anamika]

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

By that same token, Bran would surely have stepped in if Sansa had gotten that dangerous toward Arya. But since Sansa came to him instead, I think we can feel confident in saying that neither Sansa nor Arya were in imminent danger of slaughtering each other.

Yes, that was pretty much Isaac's point. That the sisters were fighting and acting against each other. And that if Sansa had really tried to call Arya in and have her killed, then Bran would have stepped in and put an end to it. Luckily it did not come to that, because Sansa woke the fuck up just in the nick of time and went to Bran for the fact check ( I still don't understand this part because Sansa basically pretty much knew about most of the vile acts that LF had done), realized she was right about LF, called Arya to her and decided to get rid of LF.

And that trial for LF was such a farce. There were so many responses that a man like LF could have come up with to try to finagle out of that situation. Especially since he was getting convicted only on Bran's say so. It was based on Sansa's testimony that LF got away scot-free for Lysa's murder. Why did he not bring that up? Sansa consented to marry the Boltons and freely went to Winterfell with LF. Why did he not mention that?  The fact that he just stood there and cried like a baby was such a badly written, ignominious end for the book character. Though the show version has been useless for some time.

Edited August 31, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Jon had a 10 yr old hanged for mutiny - his neck did not break immediately - we had to look at the swollen face and bulging eyes of a child.

We saw a man getting eaten alive by hungry dogs.

Arya baked some men into pies and fed them to Walder Frey and later we saw a whole lot of them clutching their throats and dying from poisoning.

If we don't have visceral reactions to the above because it's justice, why would we to Dany executing the Tarlys using dragonfire - the least painful death compared to the above - the Tarlys became ashes in seconds. 

I did have a visceral reaction to Stannis burning Mance because Ciarán Hinds was just amazing and that took a while. That was a slow roast.

That's why I think Tyrion is a bit of a hypocrite. He used wildfire against Stannis and we saw several people partially burned and crying out in pain. As Davos pointed out, his own son was killed by Tyrion using Wildfire. He knew who he was supporting when he came to Westeros with Dany. Was he expecting Dany to never, ever use her dragons?

The dragons are Dany's weapons. It's what she uses to kill. She offered to forgive them if they bend the knee, they refused. She would have offered to send them to the wall, they refused. She looked them in the eyes, passed the sentence and swung the metaphorical sword (in this case her dragons) herself.

Why is is that whenever people defend Dany they compare her to other rulers? By her own words she's supposed to be better than other rulers. If she want to conquer than become the queen of ash and conquer, if not, then stop acting like previous rulers, either way, stop being half assed about it.

Tyrion's trying to help her break the wheel. So no, he's not being a hypocrite, he's doing his job and trying to stop her from being seen as a replica of her father.

That's not how that works. If you have to give the kill order to someone or something else then you're not swinging anything.

 

It's weird that people bring up incest but don't bring up that Tywin was married to his cousin. I don't have a problem with the aunt nephew part of it as much as, how it's going to look to the Northerners. Jon just gave up North's independence to someone that he's in a relationship with. If I'm a Northerner, I'm wondering what the hell.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes, that was pretty much Isaac's point. That the sisters were fighting and acting against each other. And that if Sansa had really tried to call Arya in and have her killed, then Bran would have stepped in and put an end to it. Luckily it did not come to that, because Sansa woke the fuck up just in the nick of time and went to Bran for the fact check ( I still don't understand this part because Sansa basically pretty much knew about most of the vile acts that LF had done), realized she was right about LF, called Arya to her and decided to get rid of LF.

And that trial for LF was such a farce. There were so many responses that a man like LF could have come up with to try to finagle out of that situation. Especially since he was getting convicted only on Bran's say. It was based on Sansa's testimony that LF got away scot-free for Lysa's murder. Why did he not bring that up? Sansa consented to marry the Boltons and freely went to Winterfell with LF. Why did he not mention that?  The fact that he just stood there and cried like a baby was such a badly written, ignominious end for the book character. Though the show version has been useless for some time.

I just resigned myself to the fact that the entire storyline was essentially sacrificed to the scramble to reach the end of the entire saga in a 13-episode season. 

[Oscirus]

So am I reading all this right? If Bran didn't have xmen powers, Sansa would've tried to kill her sister?  Are you fucking kidding me? Please tell me he was misinterpreting the script.

[screamin]

Just now, anamika said:

Yes, that was pretty much Isaac's point. That the sisters were fighting and acting against each other. And that if Sansa had really tried to call Arya in and have her killed, then Bran would have stepped in and put an end to it. Luckily it did not come to that, because Sansa woke the fuck up just in the nick of time and went to Bran for the fact check ( I still don't understand this part because Sansa basically pretty much knew about most of the vile acts that LF had done), realized she was right about LF, called Arya to her and decided to get rid of LF.

And that trial for LF was such a farce. There were so many responses that a man like LF could have come up with to try to finagle out of that situation. Especially since he was getting convicted only on Bran's say. It was based on Sansa's testimony that LF got away scot-free for Lysa's murder. Why did he not bring that up? Sansa consented to marry the Boltons and freely went to Winterfell with LF. Why did he not mention that?  The fact that he just stood there and cried like a baby was such a badly written, ignominious end for the book character. Though the show version has been useless for some time.

I agree the trial should have been much more convincing. The maester could have testified that LF asked for that letter under the false pretenses of Sansa asking for it, which he then lied to Sansa about. Suddenly confronting him and exposing that he lied to her in front of the whole court would have unnerved him and made his subsequent collapse more credible.

Re: Arya and Sansa, I think it's to Sansa's credit that she was willing to question her own conclusions about Arya, and ask Bran for help, while Arya was quite happy to ask for no input from Bran on her own conclusions about Sansa - conclusions which had her accusing Sansa of potential treason and waving a knife at her while talking about cutting her face off. But further discussion about that should probably be taken to an appropriate character thread.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes, that was pretty much Isaac's point. That the sisters were fighting and acting against each other. And that if Sansa had really tried to call Arya in and have her killed, then Bran would have stepped in and put an end to it. Luckily it did not come to that, because Sansa woke the fuck up just in the nick of time and went to Bran for the fact check ( I still don't understand this part because Sansa basically pretty much knew about most of the vile acts that LF had done), realized she was right about LF, called Arya to her and decided to get rid of LF.

And that trial for LF was such a farce. There were so many responses that a man like LF could have come up with to try to finagle out of that situation. Especially since he was getting convicted only on Bran's say. It was based on Sansa's testimony that LF got away scot-free for Lysa's murder. Why did he not bring that up? Sansa consented to marry the Boltons and freely went to Winterfell with LF. Why did he not mention that?  The fact that he just stood there and cried like a baby was such a badly written, ignominious end for the book character. Though the show version has been useless for some time.

I agree the trial should have been much more convincing. The maester could have testified that LF asked for that letter under the false pretenses of Sansa asking for it, which he then lied to Sansa about. Suddenly confronting him and exposing that he lied to her in front of the whole court would have unnerved him and made his subsequent collapse more credible.

Re: Arya and Sansa, I think it's to Sansa's credit that she was willing to question her own conclusions about Arya, and ask Bran for help, while Arya was quite happy to ask for no input from Bran on her own conclusions about Sansa - conclusions which had her accusing Sansa of potential treason and waving a knife at her while talking about cutting her face off. But further discussion about that should probably be taken to an appropriate character thread.

To be fair to Littlefinger, he was legit shocked. He went from spectator watching his puppet do what he wanted to becoming a suspect in a trial for things that nobody should've known in the blink of an eye. I don't suspect most people would have been prepared for such an occasion.

[anamika]

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

Re: Arya and Sansa, I think it's to Sansa's credit that she was willing to question her own conclusions about Arya, and ask Bran for help, while Arya was quite happy to ask for no input from Bran on her own conclusions about Sansa - conclusions which had her accusing Sansa of potential treason and waving a knife at her while talking about cutting her face off. But further discussion about that should probably be taken to an appropriate character thread.

Yes, I do give her credit for catching onto LF's mistake about Arya wanting to become Lady of Winterfell. But let's remember that Sansa has spend 3 seasons of the show and 4 books with LF. Not Arya. Arya does not know LF all that well, Sansa does. That Sansa fell for his BS and kept trusting him despite all that shows more negatively on her than Arya.

As for Arya, the show has done her a disservice this season. LF was Sansa's story and Arya was just used as a plot device this season for the resolution of the LF drama. We saw Sansa interacting with Brienne and LF and we see her expressing her thoughts and fears and why she is doing the things she is doing. We never got to see Arya's side of things and why she was doing the things she was doing. We never saw Arya explain herself. She would just pop up scarily, threaten Sansa a few times and ended the season being Sansa's executioner. As if there is nothing more to this character. As if she does not have her own story or plot in the books.

I hope next season Arya and Bran get to do their own plots as important characters in their own right, instead of serving as props for Sansa's story whatever that is.

Edited August 31, 2017 by anamika

[Tikichick]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes, I do give her credit for catching onto LF's mistake about Arya wanting to become Lady of Winterfell. But let's remember that Sansa has spend 3 seasons of the show and 4 books with LF. Not Arya. Arya does not know LF all that well, Sansa does. That Sansa fell for his BS and kept trusting him despite all that shows more negatively on her than Arya.

As for Arya, the show has done her a disservice this season. LF was Sansa's story and Arya was just used as a plot device this season for the resolution of the LF drama. We saw Sansa interacting with Brienne and LF and we see her expressing her thoughts and fears and why she is doing the things she is doing. We never got to see Arya's side of things and why she was doing the things she was doing. We never saw Arya explain herself. She would just pop up scarily, threaten Sansa a few times and ended the season being Sansa's executioner. As if there is nothing more to this character. As if she does not have her own story or plot in the books.

I hope next season Arya and Bran get to do their own plots as important characters in their own right, instead of serving as props for Sansa's story whatever that is.

I understand what you're getting at and I agree to an extent.  Given a choice I would have preferred a much more fleshed out, and quite different WF story.  We started this journey with the Starks and I have been waiting for the Stark family to rise again as a unit -- or a pack if you will.

[Uncle JUICE]

I think the entire Theon scene set in this episode is emblematic of this season as a whole. It's two people talking, then a scene that's supposed to be cathartic and heavy and emotional but didn't do enough legwork to get it across the finish line. Basically it's waaah, I feel bad, Jon's like 'forgiven what I can, go find your sister." If you want me to be like "wow, good for these two!", then you needed to do more with Theon than have him leap of a boat as a coward like two scenes before this happened (two scenes for the character I mean). Then we move to him getting beat to a pulp by a characer we don't know, because he wants to rescue a character we almost don't care about, from a villain I definitely don't care about, and he's victorious because he has no balls. In the end, Game of Thrones is standing and ready to proceed, but it's bloodied and staggering around, to what end we're not really sure. Worse, we're now going to have to waste time next season watching Theon pursue Yara's rescue mission, which takes us away from the story we really WANT to see: the great war, then the civil war finally resolving. Oh cool, Pike's in the opening credits...they should just change that to Island Of Deleteable Scenes. 

And on top of that, if you just kill Theon and Yara earlier, like when Eruon captures them, you actually HELP the Euron character develop out of "80's Douche Metal Lead Singer Who Now Tries To Win Air Guitar Competitions" into a real three dimensional scary person. Instead I feel like he enters and exits every scene with that YYYYYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH from the Who / CSI Miami. 

[Inquiry]

Okay, I know this is random, but did anyone else laugh when they saw Jon and Dany coming out of that sliver in the wall at the Dragonpit? Apparently, without a cave around, Jon had to make do with what he had. It did highlight how much they had secluded themselves from others, which not only signaled their growing attraction but was perhaps symbolic of why Tyrion seemed worried when he heard the Jon/Dany sexytimes. Please, god, just don't let it be romantic jealousy. 

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

To be fair to Littlefinger, he was legit shocked. He went from spectator watching his puppet do what he wanted to becoming a suspect in a trial for things that nobody should've known in the blink of an eye. I don't suspect most people would have been prepared for such an occasion.

Add to that realizing that Bran could quote his subversive secret conversations verbatim and I think he was momentarily stunned. Once he came too he was begging for his life because it was so obvious the game was up. And for me it was totally in character for him to crumble like that once he realized he couldn't manipulate his way out of this one.

[Francie]

18 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Add to that realizing that Bran could quote his subversive secret conversations verbatim and I think he was momentarily stunned. Once he came too he was begging for his life because it was so obvious the game was up. And for me it was totally in character for him to crumble like that once he realized he couldn't manipulate his way out of this one.

I thought it was completely out of character for Littlefinger not to go down swinging harder.

"I have orders that, should I die, Robin of Aryn is to be killed!"

"Arya, I can give you Cersei. Let's work together." 

Something, anything.  He's lived his life for far too long knowing people needed to be motivated by their self interests to pull a fall down on a full out "Pleeeeeeeeease!" 

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

There was Brienne. Brienne who saved her life, Brienne whom she could entirely trust to protect her, Brienne who is one of the strongest warriors in Westeros. Brienne whom Sansa chose to not confide in. Brienne whom Sansa. Sent. Away.

But she sent Brienne away BEFORE that scene in Arya's room where she scared the living shit out of her saying she would cut off her face. She wasn't afraid Arya would kill her then, just read the letter to the Northern Lords. Afterwards she was probably kicking herself for sending the person most loyal to her and who could protect her away. Why she did though is open to debate. I don't believe 
 

Quote

 

Just after LF reminded her that Brienne would have been forced to intervene if "any of [the sisters] planned to hurt the other".

So 1) Either Sansa is completely dumb: She believed that Arya might kill her, and she sent away the only person around who was physically able to protect her. 2) Either Sansa didn't want Brienne around because she thought of getting rid of Arya. Sansa being the attacker was the only case where Brienne would go against her.

If one lets go of the notion of Sansa as a perfect wittle pwincess who is never even tempted to do wrong, option 2, as well as the whole storyline, doesn't look so nonsensical anymore.

 

It's open to debate why Sansa sent Brienne away. She could have sent her away because she knew she would go looking for the letter which would lead to a confrontation with Arya and Brienne would be forced to intervene on Sansa's behalf and either one or both of these formidable fighters would be hurt.

I've said this before but I don't blame Arya for distrusting Sansa because even viewers who do know what Sansa has been through all these years  STILL distrust her. Like Arya they can't let go of the memory of that season 1 Sansa brat who chose a spoiled prince(prestige) over family. They see her arguing with Jon earlier this season and not showing him the right amount of respect in public and think "Aha, she's going to betray him!" Littlefinger took advantage of Arya's belief that she would.

Sansa had her qualms about Jon being Lord of Winterfell true but as these past few episodes have shown Jon has made STAGGERINGLY stupid decisions. Decisions that have had HORRIBLE consequences. Sansa warned him not to make dumb mistakes like Ned and Robb and here is making even dumber mistakes!

Isaac has his opinion on what Sansa wanted help for. For me Sansa realized after playing Littlefinger's game that Arya wanted to be lady of Littlefinger made no sense to people who actually knew her.  Littlefinger's mistake was believing everyone like him wants power but Arya didn't. I think Sansa went to Bran wanted to find out once and for all what the deal with Arya was. Why was she doing the things she was doing? Was really she going to kill her? Bran would have told her everything that happened to Arya since they were separated. The key moment being that Arya was this close to their mother and Robb when the Red Wedding happened and couldn't do anything to save them. Then later on her killing the men responsible. If Arya truly wanted her dead Sansa realized, she would have been dead.

[MarySNJ]

7 minutes ago, Francie said:

I thought it was completely out of character for Littlefinger not to go down swinging harder.

"I have orders that, should I die, Robin of Aryn is to be killed!"

"Arya, I can give you Cersei. Let's work together." 

Something, anything.  He's lived his life for far too long knowing people needed to be motivated by their self interests to pull a fall down on a full out "Pleeeeeeeeease!" 

When Littlefinger appealed to Royce to rescue him and was refused, I think it was clear to Littlefinger that nobody in that room was going to help him. If he tried to fight his way out, he'd have been dead even sooner. That's the price he paid for a lifetime of manipulation, scheming and being a social-climber in a highly hierarchical society. No one trusted him and no one, save Robin who wasn't at Winterfell, liked him enough to come to his aid. 

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Does anyone doubt that Bronn spent his time with Pod outlining his demands for switching sides?

See, another reason it's a shame we couldn't have Bronn at the wight demo because  Jerome & Lena can't stand each other. As someone who's still just a glorified sell sword, I have to think that  Ser Bronn would draw the line at putting his life at risk fighting a zombie army. 

He turned his back on Tyrion for the trial by combat because he knew fighting Gregor was a death sentence. I can't believe he'd stick around for a zombie war. 

[Mrs Ruttenhouse]

18 hours ago, DrScottie said:

If you notice, that first shot of that scene is him physically bending the knee. 

Also, the first shot of them in bed together shows Jon rather prominently bending his knee.  Maybe it's just a funny coincidence, but I wonder if it was staged that way as a sly little inside joke.

 

ETA: in a way, the whole staging of the love scene was symbolic.  It begins with Dany on top, and Jon bending the knee.  Then, as Bran announces that Jon is the rightful heir, they switch places and Jon is on top.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Mrs Ruttenhouse

[Francie]

15 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

When Littlefinger appealed to Royce to rescue him and was refused, I think it was clear to Littlefinger that nobody in that room was going to help him. 

That's exactly when I think it would have kicked in for Littlefinger to try to find a reason why they'd feel like they'd need him. My entire point still stands, as the Littlefinger I know would have been trying to find an angle -- any angle -- to have them recognize, "Oh wait, we do need him, after all."

Edited August 31, 2017 by Francie

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

That's exactly when I think it would have kicked in for Littlefinger to try to find a reason why they'd feel like they'd need them. My entire point still stands, the Littlefinger I know would have been trying to find an angle -- any angle -- to have them recognize, "Oh wait, we do need him, after all."

I've just accepted that whole storyline was butchered in sacrifice in the push to the end.  It's just never going to payoff or satisfy.  I had such high hopes.  If I had ideas that sounded interesting, I can only imagine what professional writers might have been able to come up with -- except that makes me bitter and sad to think about, so I've just got to let it go.

[YaddaYadda]

59 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Add to that realizing that Bran could quote his subversive secret conversations verbatim and I think he was momentarily stunned. Once he came too he was begging for his life because it was so obvious the game was up. And for me it was totally in character for him to crumble like that once he realized he couldn't manipulate his way out of this one.

I thought it was a bit OOC. This is the guy who fought a duel with someone much bigger and stronger than him and refused to yield. 

I thought his begging was super pathetic, but maybe that was the point. 

[Uncle JUICE]

34 minutes ago, Mrs Ruttenhouse said:

Also, the first shot of them in bed together shows Jon rather prominently bending his knee.  Maybe it's just a funny coincidence, but I wonder if it was staged that way as a sly little inside joke.

 

ETA: in a way, the whole staging of the love scene was symbolic.  It begins with Dany on top, and Jon bending the knee.  Then, as Bran announces that Jon is the rightful heir, they switch places and Jon is on top.

I guess I'm the only adult child who the second Jon knocked on the door said "Dick delivery"? Or when she opened the door said "Diiiid anyone in here say they were looking for a regal banging?" 

[madam magpie]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Why is is that whenever people defend Dany they compare her to other rulers? By her own words she's supposed to be better than other rulers. If she want to conquer than become the queen of ash and conquer, if not, then stop acting like previous rulers, either way, stop being half assed about it.

Tyrion's trying to help her break the wheel. So no, he's not being a hypocrite, he's doing his job and trying to stop her from being seen as a replica of her father.

That's not how that works. If you have to give the kill order to someone or something else then you're not swinging anything.

Wait...so Dany can't just be "better," she has to be perfect? And the judgment of that leadership perfection is linked to whose moral code: mine, yours, Tyrion's, hers? 

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Why is is that whenever people defend Dany they compare her to other rulers? By her own words she's supposed to be better than other rulers. If she want to conquer than become the queen of ash and conquer, if not, then stop acting like previous rulers, either way, stop being half assed about it.

Tyrion's trying to help her break the wheel. So no, he's not being a hypocrite, he's doing his job and trying to stop her from being seen as a replica of her father.

That's not how that works. If you have to give the kill order to someone or something else then you're not swinging anything.

 

7 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Wait...so Dany can't just be "better," she has to be perfect? And the judgment of that leadership perfection is linked to whose moral code: mine, yours, Tyrion's, hers? 

That's a quintessential example of a straw man argument. Nothing was said by that poster about Dany having to be perfect.

Dany wouldn't be a great leader just because she didn't burn a child or blow up a sept.  A great leader has a plan and vision, effectively delivers that vision, and enriches their people's lives by the implementation of that vision.  So far, we've seen none of that. 

[Uncle JUICE]

45 minutes ago, Francie said:

That's exactly when I think it would have kicked in for Littlefinger to try to find a reason why they'd feel like they'd need him. My entire point still stands, as the Littlefinger I know would have been trying to find an angle -- any angle -- to have them recognize, "Oh wait, we do need him, after all."

At the very least, even adding "I can get you to Cersei" is an interesting conversation point, but ultimately untrue: he'd have declared for the North already, so Cersei would likely have just executed him for treason upon his return to KL. Still, if Arya pauses, asks how, points out the problem, Littlefinger could have given a way around the problem. Then Arya can slice his throat all the same, and whisper "I don't need you...I only need a part of you." Boom. 

[stillshimpy]

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Poor Dickon? Your definition of honorable and sweet differs from mine. Dickon betrayed his oath and killed his friends, the Tyrell bannerman. Not only was he a traitor, he was a fool who only thought of his pride and father when he should have been thinking about his mother and sister all alone in the world. 

 

Dickon honored his loyalty to his father and was actually troubled by killing his friends.  He had conflicting loyalties there and chose his family.  He chose his family in death too.  

 

Yeah, he's okay in my book, kebab that his is.  Frankly, none of these people are worthy of loyalty when it comes to their seemingly useless house oaths because freaking none of them honor them.   They are oaths in word only, even judging by the Northern Lords, but some of the characters would choose to be honorable in a world that is otherwise not.  Dickon was not depicted as a complex person but he was depicted as being troubled by breaking an oath, so he's head and shoulders over a lot of the characters. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by stillshimpy

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think the entire Theon scene set in this episode is emblematic of this season as a whole. It's two people talking, then a scene that's supposed to be cathartic and heavy and emotional but didn't do enough legwork to get it across the finish line. Basically it's waaah, I feel bad, Jon's like 'forgiven what I can, go find your sister." If you want me to be like "wow, good for these two!", then you needed to do more with Theon than have him leap of a boat as a coward like two scenes before this happened (two scenes for the character I mean). Then we move to him getting beat to a pulp by a characer we don't know, because he wants to rescue a character we almost don't care about, from a villain I definitely don't care about, and he's victorious because he has no balls. In the end, Game of Thrones is standing and ready to proceed, but it's bloodied and staggering around, to what end we're not really sure. Worse, we're now going to have to waste time next season watching Theon pursue Yara's rescue mission, which takes us away from the story we really WANT to see: the great war, then the civil war finally resolving. Oh cool, Pike's in the opening credits...they should just change that to Island Of Deleteable Scenes. 

And on top of that, if you just kill Theon and Yara earlier, like when Eruon captures them, you actually HELP the Euron character develop out of "80's Douche Metal Lead Singer Who Now Tries To Win Air Guitar Competitions" into a real three dimensional scary person. Instead I feel like he enters and exits every scene with that YYYYYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH from the Who / CSI Miami. 

As much as I like Yara, I agree. The finale showed that Theon is extraneous to the story now. However, they might use him to defeat Euron in the upcoming wars. It is the only role that I can see for him.

[madam magpie]

33 minutes ago, Francie said:

 

That's a quintessential example of a straw man argument. Nothing was said by that poster about Dany having to be perfect.

Dany wouldn't be a great leader just because she didn't burn a child or blow up a sept.  A great leader has a plan and vision, effectively delivers that vision, and enriches their people's lives by the implementation of that vision.  So far, we've seen none of that. 

It's not at all. The original post said nothing about vision and implementation. The critique was that defending Dany by saying others are bad is ineffective because she's supposed to be better. I still say, "Better than what? What would constitute 'better'? Does she need 'perfection' to be a better leader? And by whose moral code is 'better/perfection' defined?"

I also totally disagree that she lacks vision or a plan. She wants to unite the seven kingdoms under one monarch and restore the peace and prosperity she feels her ruling family provided before. She basically said as much to Jon when she met him. She also wants to create a different and more merciful world order that includes more freedom of thought and movement (so long as you recognize her authority, of course). She's marched through multiple cities implementing this vision since she got her first army, and her plan/vision/rule has certainly improved the lives of the Unsullied and the various lower classes she's freed. She hasn't fully succeeded in her plan, she's definitely still learning how to be the leader she wants to be, and the White Walkers are a huge obstacle, but what she's trying to do has always been clear.

Edited August 31, 2017 by madam magpie

[OhOkayWhat]

About the whole Sansa-Arya-Bran issue. We are making the same mistake again. Interviews are always (almost) just that, interviews. They are the interpretation of the actor,director, etc. of a certain scene or story arc.

Issac: " ....and I don’t know whether they actually want to change the story, but as I understand it, ..."

(Bold is mine)

Interviews does not necessarily tells us the truth about a character motivation, decision, etc. And that applies to the Sansa-Arya-Bran issue.

[stillshimpy]

14 hours ago, anamika said:

on had a 10 yr old hanged for mutiny - his neck did not break immediately - we had to look at the swollen face and bulging eyes of a child.

We saw a man getting eaten alive by hungry dogs.

Arya baked some men into pies and fed them to Walder Frey and later we saw a whole lot of them clutching their throats and dying from poisoning.

If we don't have visceral reactions to the above because it's justice, why would we to Dany executing the Tarlys using dragonfire - the least painful death compared to the above - the Tarlys became ashes in seconds. 

These are all excellent examples of the flexibility of what is considered honorable and good in that world, thanks for making them.  

In terms of what Dany did, I think she should have listened to Tryion and allowed them some time in a cell to contemplate what they wanted to do.  It would have set her apart from many of the leaders in that world and may have impressed them, or not, they might still have chosen to die rather than follow her but the instantaneous "Do this or DIE" thing kind of guaranteed the "oh...death it is" of it all.  

It was pretty ruthless and again, reminiscent of the person she claims she's not like. It was a good opportunity to prove it and she chose fire and death.  I like Dany, but some of her decisions hold up to more scrutiny than others and adding more senseless death to the senseless death landscape didn't do much for me.  

[stillshimpy]

4 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Since Sansa was confident enough in Bran's abilities to consult him, she would obviously realize that it would be pointless to lie to Bran.  I think it's a bit of a misstatement that Sansa was actively trying to get Arya killed.  I do think it likely Sansa may have been considering a preemptive strike against Arya, which is only sensible in the context of being aware of Arya's abilities, Sansa being wary and mistrustful of everyone in light of her experiences and the fact that Sansa was unnerved by the discovery in Arya's room and their confrontation -- although I do think Arya's presentation of the dagger confused Sansa and caused her to dig deeper.     

One of the things that startled me was Sansa's familiarity with the Faceless Men because what would have occurred to me, didn't seem to occur to her, or perhaps it did:  What if that isn't Arya but simply someone wearing her face?  

We know it's Arya because we watched her journey.  It was a missed opportunity to help clarify that muddy plot if the reason Sansa was spooked was she realized there was a possibility that wasn't Arya at all.  Arya flat out told her all she'd need to be Sansa was her face, it then follows all that someone would need to pretend to be Arya would be her face. 

[Blonde Gator]

5 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Dickon honored his loyalty to his father and was actually troubled by killing his friends.  He had conflicting loyalties there and chose his family.  He chose his family in death too.  

 

Yeah, he's okay in my book, kebab that his is.  Frankly, none of these people are worthy of loyalty when it comes to their seemingly useless house oaths because freaking none of them honor them.   They are oaths in word only, even judging by the Northern Lords, but some of the characters would choose to be honorable in a world that is otherwise not.  Dickon was not depicted as a complex person but he was depicted as being troubled by breaking an oath, so he's head and shoulders over a lot of the characters. 

I agree.  Poor Dickon, he knows what his father did to Sam for not living up to Dad's idealized expectations of what an heir to a noble house should be.  Dad's been a ginormous jerk his entire life, no doubt bullying Dickon the same way he bullied Sam (to near death) and the way he bullied the rest of his family, as we observed during the dining room scene at Horn Hill last season. 

And here's Dickon, after the Field of Fire, given an impossible choice, live up to Dear Old Dad's expectations, and honor his oath and duty, as been drummed into him is entire life, or defy DoD, and lose everything (in his mind) that he's taught has been important, had he chosen to bend the knee.  If Dickon had made that choice, he'd have mentally tortured himself to death over that decision (or turned himself into a miserable human being for everyone around him), for making the "wrong" decision.  No win situation.  

Dickon reminded me of that "young noble lad" who King Bobby B described, early in the series, when Barristan, Jaime, & Bobby were talking about their first kills.   Something along the lines of "and here came this young noble lad, in marvelous armor, still wet behind the ears, and I gave him a mighty bash with my war hammer.  Ye God!  I was strong then.  And the lad fell, his chest crushed in, and with a sad, sad look on his face, and he said "Mother", and died.  What did he think was gong to happen?".    <--close but it's been a couple of years since I've seen that episode. 

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

When Littlefinger appealed to Royce to rescue him and was refused, I think it was clear to Littlefinger that nobody in that room was going to help him. If he tried to fight his way out, he'd have been dead even sooner. That's the price he paid for a lifetime of manipulation, scheming and being a social-climber in a highly hierarchical society. No one trusted him and no one, save Robin who wasn't at Winterfell, liked him enough to come to his aid. 

That's how I saw it, too. He realized, in one fell swoop, that shit had gotten real at warp speed with no way for him to catch up. Littlefinger's specialty was the long con, and he suddenly knew it wasn't happening and the ground was crumbling beneath him. In that moment, I didn't care about the silly convolutions that got us there. I was quite sure Sansa was going to turn toward Littlefinger after she announced the charges, but even as she did what I expected, I still was like, "Oh, SNAP!" AG's reaction was a spit-take without the spit--and, whether it was supposed to be funny or not, I was laughing my ass off. I've watched that scene ten more times for that shot, alone.

Edited August 31, 2017 by spaceghostess

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

I agree.  Poor Dickon, he knows what his father did to Sam for not living up to Dad's idealized expectations of what an heir to a noble house should be.  Dad's been a ginormous jerk his entire life, no doubt bullying Dickon the same way he bullied Sam (to near death) and the way he bullied the rest of his family, as we observed during the dining room scene at Horn Hill last season. 

And here's Dickon, after the Field of Fire, given an impossible choice, live up to Dear Old Dad's expectations, and honor his oath and duty, as been drummed into him is entire life, or defy DoD, and lose everything (in his mind) that he's taught has been important, had he chosen to bend the knee.  If Dickon had made that choice, he'd have mentally tortured himself to death over that decision (or turned himself into a miserable human being for everyone around him), for making the "wrong" decision.  No win situation.  

Dickon reminded me of that "young noble lad" who King Bobby B described, early in the series, when Barristan, Jaime, & Bobby were talking about their first kills.   Something along the lines of "and here came this young noble lad, in marvelous armor, still wet behind the ears, and I gave him a mighty bash with my war hammer.  Ye God!  I was strong then.  And the lad fell, his chest crushed in, and with a sad, sad look on his face, and he said "Mother", and died.  What did he think was gong to happen?".    <--close but it's been a couple of years since I've seen that episode. 

You brought back to me more of the reasons I despise Robert Barratheon.  I just can't ever understand he and Ned having been such great friends, seems like such an odd match. 

[stillshimpy]

53 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Wait...so Dany can't just be "better," she has to be perfect? And the judgment of that leadership perfection is linked to whose moral code: mine, yours, Tyrion's, hers? 

There's a lot of room between better and perfect for her to be better without being perfect.  I don't think,"Maybe give it a night's thought before you burn people alive like your dad, who you know was wrong in his actions, used to do."  That would be better and is not an unreasonable standard.  

[Oscirus]

15 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

It's not at all. The original post said nothing about vision and implementation. The critique was that defending Dany by saying others are bad is ineffective because she's supposed to be better. I still say, "Better than what? What would constitute 'better'? Does she need 'perfection' to be a better leader? And by whose moral code is 'better/perfection' defined?"

I also totally disagree that she lacks vision or a plan. She wants to unite the seven kingdoms under one monarch and restore the peace and prosperity she feels her ruling family provided before. 

Vision and implementation was implied when I stated she should stick to one plan or the other.

Didn't  say she had to be perfect just better, you said perfect to make a t seem like I'm demanding too much from her.

What you just descrbed is the proverbial wheel. So you're saying Dany's full of shit?

[madam magpie]

3 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

That's how I saw it, too. He realized, in one fell swoop, that shit had gotten real at warp speed with no way for him to catch up. Littlefinger's specialty was the long con, and he suddenly knew it wasn't happening and the ground was crumbling beneath him. In that moment, I didn't care about the silly convolutions that got us there. I was quite sure Sansa was going to turn toward Littlefinger after she announced the charges, but even as she did what I expected, I still was like, "Oh, SNAP!" AG's reaction was a spit-take without the spit--and, whether it was supposed to be funny or not, I was laughing my ass off. I've watched that scene ten more times for that shot, alone.

Yes!! This scene really was fantastically done. It's interesting, I watched a "behind the scenes" video last night about filming the summit at the Dragon Pit and how important it was, etc. And it was. But the Littlefinger smack-down and the Tyrion/Cersei conversation in this episode were so much more sublime, I thought! Those two and the exchange when Jon/Dany meet are probably my favorite scenes of this season. I did like all the dragon battles/rescues too, but those were more visually spectacular. 

[stillshimpy]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

You brought back to me more of the reasons I despise Robert Barratheon.  I just can't ever understand he and Ned having been such great friends, seems like such an odd match. 

Quoted for truth.  That friendship makes zero sense, particularly knowing that Robert was engaged to his sister and was the JFK of Westeros in the pants department only, the guy claimed he'd have debilitating headaches if he didn't have sex daily and apparently never heard of yanking it.

I liked screen Robert before I read the books because Mark Addy is an awesome actor.  I read the books and was horrified.  

[Francie]

26 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

also totally disagree that she lacks vision or a plan. She wants to unite the seven kingdoms under one monarch and restore the peace and prosperity she feels her ruling family provided before. She basically said as much to Jon when she met him. S). She's marched through multiple cities implementing this vision since she got her first army, and her plan/vision/rule has certainly improved the lives of the Unsullied and the various lower classes she's freed. She hasn't fully succeeded in her plan, she's definitely still learning how to be the leader she wants to be, and the White Walkers are a huge obstacle, but what she's trying to do has always been clear

How does she intend to install that peace and prosperity? She hasn't even addressed that winter has come and most of these people will die of starvation or from the elements. That wasn't part of her vision, and she has no plan to deal with that.  She never has. 

How does she intend to treat Dorne, which has has its own recognized monarchy? How does she intend to be more merciful? Does she have a judicial system in mind?  How will legislation occur? Will there be representatives to relay the needs of the people to her or is it supposed to be a free-for-all like in Essos where people have to travel thousands of miles to her court?  

These are all the points GRRM raised about his work compared to The Lord of the Rings.  And Dany falls right into that trap. She is well-intentioned about "breaking the wheel" and she has these vague, undefined ideals. But she clearly has no plan. She didn't have one in Essos either, and those cities fell into ruin or where in shambles with uprisings and crime when she abandoned them. And her big plan for Maureen? Put Daario in charge. That's not a plan. And as Daario has said, she's a conqueror not a ruler. 

Quote

She also wants to create a different and more merciful world order that includes more freedom of thought and movement (so long as you recognize her authority, of course).

That encapsulates Dany beautifully.  "You can have your way .... along as it's the same way that I want." 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Francie

[madam magpie]

4 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

There's a lot of room between better and perfect for her to be better without being perfect.  I don't think,"Maybe give it a night's thought before you burn people alive like your dad, who you know was wrong in his actions, used to do."  That would be better and is not an unreasonable standard.  

Fair enough. Maybe I should have said "great" instead of "perfect"...

I do think she's much, much better. Perfect? Absolutely not. Great? How can we possibly know that yet? She hasn't even won! I do think Dany has the potential to be a great leader. She's smart, decisive, charming, merciful, strong, and willing to admit what she doesn't know. She asks for help and advice. And like ALL great leaders she has an ego that fills the room, but is (mostly) tempered by compassion. She's a monarch, though. Can a monarch really be considered "great" by modern standards? I don't know. But she definitely has the potential for it.

Edited August 31, 2017 by madam magpie

[stillshimpy]

4 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Yes!! This scene really was fantastically done. It's interesting, I watched a "behind the scenes" video last night about filming the summit at the Dragon Pit and how important it was, etc. And it was. But the Littlefinger smack-down and the Tyrion/Cersei conversation in this episode were so much more sublime, I thought! Those two and the exchange when Jon/Dany meet are probably my favorite scenes of this season. I did like all the dragon battles/rescues too, but those were more visually spectacular. 

The part of that video that made me unintentionally laugh was when one of the showrunners talked about being excited to see what Aiden Gillen would do with that moment.  Note he didn't then say what he thought of his choices.  

That was dinner theater acting, man. 

[Blonde Gator]

33 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

In terms of what Dany did, I think she should have listened to Tryion and allowed them some time in a cell to contemplate what they wanted to do.  It would have set her apart from many of the leaders in that world and may have impressed them, or not, they might still have chosen to die rather than follow her but the instantaneous "Do this or DIE" thing kind of guaranteed the "oh...death it is" of it all.  

It was pretty ruthless and again, reminiscent of the person she claims she's not like. It was a good opportunity to prove it and she chose fire and death.  I like Dany, but some of her decisions hold up to more scrutiny than others and adding more senseless death to the senseless death landscape didn't do much for me.  

Ruthless or not, it was supremely effective.  All of those Lannister troops immediately knelt.  They will spread the story, far and wide.  The Lannister army will be infected with the thought that their side is fighting an impossible enemy, which will demoralize them all, to the point it will definitely degrade their combat effectiveness (desertions, a la Stannis' army).  The people of Westeros will understand this as a repeat of the Field of Fire.  As will their Lords, and Lords Paramount/Aspiring Rulers. 

Dany "sacrificed" two people after the battle, pour l'encouragement de les autres.  (To encourage the others) 

It was the very same thing Jon Snow did to Janos Slynt at the wall.  After all of Slynt's cursing and bluster, Jon turned to Ollie and said "Bring me my sword".  (I wish they'd used "block", as they did in the books).  Jon executed Slynt for disobeying his orders, pour l'encouragement de les autres.  The only difference that Jon "swung the sword himself", but since Dany has no other weapons to bring to bear except her dragon, I don't begrudge her using Drogon & "Dracarys".

Edited August 31, 2017 by Blonde Gator
errant index finger on "swung"

[madam magpie]

10 minutes ago, Francie said:

That encapsulates Dany beautifully.  "You can have your way .... along as it's the same way that I want." 

This is how all political leaders are. Some are more diplomatic than others, but "support my vision or get out" is how ALL governments are run.

It sounds like what you're saying is that because Dany hasn't laid out a plan for every battle, she has no plan. Obviously, I don't agree with that.

Edited August 31, 2017 by madam magpie

[Francie]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

Ruthless or not, it was supremely effective.  All of those Lannister troops immediately knelt.  They will spread the story, far and wide.  The Lannister army will be infected with the thought that their side is fighting an impossible enemy, which will demoralize them all, to the point it will definitely degrade their combat effectiveness (desertions, a la Stannis' army).  The people of Westeros will understand this as a repeat of the Field of Fire.  As will their Lords, and Lords Paramount/Aspiring Rulers. 

Dany "sacrificed" two people after the battle, pour l'encouragement de les autres.  (To encourage the others) 

It was the very same thing Jon Snow did to Janos Slynt at the wall.  After all of Slynt's cursing and bluster, Jon turned to Ollie and said "Bring me my sword".  (I wish they'd used "block", as they did in the books).  Jon executed Slynt for disobeying his orders, pour l'encouragement de les autres.  The only difference that Jon "swunt the sword himself", but since Dany has no other weapons to bring to bear except her dragon, I don't begrudge her using Drogon & "Dracarys".

A. Dany had other weapons. She had a whole host of weapons, from Dorthraki swords for beheading to rope and a nearest tree for hanging.  In fact, Tyrion thought she was going for a beheading when she decided to use her dragons.

B. What you are describing as "supremely effective" is terrorism. Demoralization. Fear.  That makes Dany a tyrant. 

[Blonde Gator]

15 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

One of the things that startled me was Sansa's familiarity with the Faceless Men because what would have occurred to me, didn't seem to occur to her, or perhaps it did:  What if that isn't Arya but simply someone wearing her face?  

We know it's Arya because we watched her journey.  It was a missed opportunity to help clarify that muddy plot if the reason Sansa was spooked was she realized there was a possibility that wasn't Arya at all.  Arya flat out told her all she'd need to be Sansa was her face, it then follows all that someone would need to pretend to be Arya would be her face. 

Why would Sansa know about the faceless men at all, until Arya spilled the beans?  I found that to be sort of shocking, as if the cult of the FM was common knowledge in Westeros.  Are the FM one of the things about which all people say "it is known"?  I never got that impression, from either the series or the books, either.