S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[YaddaYadda]

12 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Who says he kept it a secret?  There is still the possibility that certain people acted to keep things quiet for their own purposes that are not understood as of yet.  Everyone is so quick to attack Rhaegar and Lyanna, yet the story isn't really fleshed out yet.

The story won't be fleshed out on the show either. I'm personally not counting on that. Actually, I'd just rather they leave it alone. 

All in all, I think there was a break in communication somewhere or information was manipulated to suit someone's purpose. 

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

It's been a while since I read the books.  I did recently within the last year or so read "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" which was about Sir Duncan and his squire named Egg, who turned out to really be Aegon Targaryen.  Someone please kindly remind me who he is in the house.  I'm assuming he's Daenerys' grandfather or great-grandfather?

Someone also kindly remind me, since it's been years since I read the latest book, I vaguely remember that there was a character named Aegon that claimed to be the son of Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.  I think he was presumed dead but is now an adult?  It seems like this character is absent from the show, at least for now?

Egg or Aegon V is Dany's great-grandfather. Jaehaerys II is Dany's grandfather.

And yes, Aegon from ADWD did not make it onto the show. That poor child is the presumed son of Rhaegar and Elia, but he's really no more than Varys and Illyrio's puppet. Basically Varys says that he switched Aegon with some baby from a cask of wine and that's the baby that had his brains smashed against the wall by Gregor Clegane. 

He won't make it to the show. If they had intended on that, they would have introduced him a season or so ago. 

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

Bran's line about Robert's Rebellion being based on a lie isn't correct, though.

Robert Baratheon believed Lyanna was kidnapped against her will. Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark and Ned Stark did, too. And Jon Arryn. And Robert's Rebellion has always sort of been mis-named- it was really more Jon Arryn's Rebellion but that isn't as catchy and he wasn't king at the end.

Bran should have said "My father lied. To everyone." Though that would thrown some water on the various "Ned Stark is the greatest. I miss the hell out of that guy." speeches from his various daughters and "sons." It might've been more interesting and nuanced though.

The lack of wildfire as an option to be discussed at least is a curious one, especially since it was used by Cersei with the Sept and Tyrion at Blackwater. It's been well established 

Cersei was never going to join Dany and Jon's battle so concealing the wildfire, which is her own WMD, makes sense.  Just like Dany didn't reveal the fact that one of her dragons had already been slain, which might have further convinced Cersei (if she were rationale) just how great the threat of the White Walkers are.

[stillshimpy]

32 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Who says he kept it a secret?  There is still the possibility that certain people acted to keep things quiet for their own purposes that are not understood as of yet.  Everyone is so quick to attack Rhaegar and Lyanna, yet the story isn't really fleshed out yet.

LF appears to be unlikely at this point, but we still have Varys on the screen for quite unknown reasons thus far.  We know Robert Barratheon was quite obsessed with Lyanna, so much that it tormented him all of his days.  We also notably still have Gendry in the mix, quite improbably after quite a long hiatus -- and we stopped for his onscreen introduction to Jon (which the show isn't focused on in this hurry up, we're almost out of here season) and a significant history with the Stark daughter who looks quite like Lyanna.  What kind of details might pop out if someone utters the right search terms in front of google Bran?  What if Howland Reed does show up after all?  

I take your point but if that's the case, everyone who attempted to keep the secret died because of it.  

So, I get what you're saying, but I think Cersei Lannister, in particular, would have thrown that little tidbit into tons of people's faces if she could have.  

But it's possible that people like Jon Arryn knew and took the secret to the grave.  Brandon Stark and his father (Rickard, right?) didn't though.  They went to the capital to ask for her back and got killed because of it.  

I know I judge the two of them harshly for that because give a heads up or go the fuck home once you've found out what you've done.  That's the part that makes the damned for all time:  Instead of hauling womb home, Lyanna Stark stayed with Rhaegar.  

And by the way, had the fucking nerve to task her poor fucking brother with hiding Jon...so yeah, there's some indication that they kept it a secret.  Whispers on death beds, "Robert would kill him..." Even within the story, Lyanna (who my GOD...died smiling like she'd done something great, at least in the show) was engaging in still more family ruining.  "Promise me...Ned..." We already know, she knew. 

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

That will be a real mouthful.

Hehehe. I`m just imaging Dany and Jon being introduced together at parties, and as soon as they get there, everyone finds a seat and starts checking ravens while the announcers read all their damn titles. 

Bran's empathy machine continues to be on the fritz, as he seemed to see the revelation that his brothers entire life was a lie as "Hey bro, I've got awesome news for you! Your secret parents had a really tasteful wedding!", or at least as much as he is capable of any real reaction. Its like when he decided to go on about how pretty Sansa looked on the night she was raped, the Three Eyed Raven focuses on really weird details on horrible memories or life destroying revaluations. Now I`m just picturing him rolling around Winterfell, reminding people of all their terrible memories, and being the worst ever barrer of bad news. "Sam, your brothers armor looked amazing when he and your father were burned alive by the Queens dragons." "Speaking of fire, that was a great decorate vase your mom had in the room while your brother was burning your face off Sandor". "Its nice seeing you again, Jaimie. Its funny that you got your hand hacked off and had to wear it as a necklace and it ruined your sword skills after your shoved me out a window and ruined my knight dreams. Grapes?" "Hey Theon, hows the rescue going? Too bad you didn't save Rob. Did you know his body was sewed up with his wolves head? Ah memories". 

Suddenly, whenever Bran shows up in a room, everyone else finds somewhere else to be. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Oscirus]

54 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

That is an excellent point!

There are only a couple of people who know about wildfire at this point.  Cersei, Qyburn, and Tyrion.  Am I missing anyone else (besides the pyromancers)?

I don't think Cersei or Qyburn will offer it up as an strategic idea to use against the WWs and the Army of the Dead.  But Tyrion knows!  AND....Melisandre and the rest of the servants of R'hollor are still allied on Dany's side, although currently all in Essos.  But surely their magic might include the manufacture of wildfire.   Wildfire is a Targaryan invention, maybe Missandei can discover wildfire's origins in an old Valyrian book or something as well. 

I'm actually kind of shocked that I haven't seen anyone mention it before you have, here.  Not the writers (via our characters), nor any of the fans on various message boards. 

A thousand upvotes for you!  Can't you imagine the Army of the Dead being funneled through a cold, wintry pass and ambushed in a spectacular series of wildfire detonations?   Spare the dragons, nuke the enemy with wildfire.

Tyrion only agreed to the use of wildfire in the blackwater for 2 reasons:

1. To stop his sister from using it

2. He was able to deploy it in a way that it wasn't any dangr to any of his men.

As for who else knows, the hound and Jorah, 

38 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Based on Jon's initial meeting of Tyrion back in WF in season one it would make no sense for Jon to say anything to Euron.  Tyrion is the one who gave Jon the primer in never allowing your adversaries' words to get to you.

He was doing more than talking shit to Tyrion at that point. That being said I'd put it more on Dany and her team than Jon.

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I take your point but if that's the case, everyone who attempted to keep the secret died because of it.  

So, I get what you're saying, but I think Cersei Lannister, in particular, would have thrown that little tidbit into tons of people's faces if she could have.  

But it's possible that people like Jon Arryn knew and took the secret to the grave.  Brandon Stark and his father (Rickard, right?) didn't though.  They went to the capital to ask for her back and got killed because of it.  

I know I judge the two of them harshly for that because give a heads up or go the fuck home once you've found out what you've done.  That's the part that makes the damned for all time:  Instead of hauling womb home, Lyanna Stark stayed with Rhaegar.  

And by the way, had the fucking nerve to task her poor fucking brother with hiding Jon...so yeah, there's some indication that they kept it a secret.  Whispers on death beds, "Robert would kill him..." Even within the story, Lyanna (who my GOD...died smiling like she'd done something great, at least in the show) was engaging in still more family ruining.  "Promise me...Ned..." We already know, she knew. 

FWIW, considering all the people that appear to have been involved in Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding (including the motherfucking pope of Westeros who went all the way to Dorne to tie the knot, with all the entourage such a move likely entails) it seems to me that the only reason no one knew of the wedding was because the protagonists deliberately didn't want it known, swearing everyone from the pope on down to secrecy.

[stillshimpy]

6 minutes ago, screamin said:

FWIW, considering all the people that appear to have been involved in Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding (including the motherfucking pope of Westeros who went all the way to Dorne to tie the knot, with all the entourage such a move likely entails) it seems to me that the only reason no one knew of the wedding was because the protagonists deliberately didn't want it known, swearing everyone from the pope on down to secrecy.

That supports my point, @screamin , doesn't it?  If you're engaged in a relationship that has to be kept secret, you know you're up to something slimy. 

Plus, again, comparisons to Arya because of the Laughing Tree have validity but there are comparisons to Sansa that are more apt and that the story on TV has illustrated too:  Sansa gets a forest's worth of poison oak rashes for believing in silly stories even when faced with the wackadoo reality of Joffrey. 

Lyanna Stark got her father cooked alive while her brother strangled to death trying to save him. 

She sacrificed actual people who loved her and died asking for more favors, all so that she could be married to the King? 

Oy. History is apparently cyclical. 

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, stillshimpy said:

If you're engaged in a relationship that has to be kept secret, you know you're up to something slimy. 

Or you're terrified about something. There had to be a reason why Lyanna would keep her wedding a secret from her own family. I doubt that Rhaeger would bother since as crown prince, there was a lot he could get away with. But I get the feeling that there was something going on that was bad enough for Lyanna to flee not just her unwanted betrothed, Robert, but her family as well.

[Constantinople]

Bran was always a bit of a Peeping Tom -- see him watching Jaime & Cersei in the pilot -- and the Three Eyed Raven is the ultimate Peeping Tom, so it makes sense Bran was chatting about Jon while Jon & Daenerys were getting it on.  Bran was probably watching.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Or you're terrified about something. There had to be a reason why Lyanna would keep her wedding a secret from her own family. I doubt that Rhaeger would bother since as crown prince, there was a lot he could get away with. But I get the feeling that there was something going on that was bad enough for Lyanna to flee not just her unwanted betrothed, Robert, but her family as well.

Unless they were sending secret ravens back and forth, the initial flee and hide in Dorne plan was all Rhaegars. Lyanna being the fierce independent woman that she is just went along with it.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

That is an excellent point!

There are only a couple of people who know about wildfire at this point.  Cersei, Qyburn, and Tyrion.  Am I missing anyone else (besides the pyromancers)?

I don't think Cersei or Qyburn will offer it up as an strategic idea to use against the WWs and the Army of the Dead.  But Tyrion knows!  AND....Melisandre and the rest of the servants of R'hollor are still allied on Dany's side, although currently all in Essos.  But surely their magic might include the manufacture of wildfire.   Wildfire is a Targaryan invention, maybe Missandei can discover wildfire's origins in an old Valyrian book or something as well. 

I'm actually kind of shocked that I haven't seen anyone mention it before you have, here.  Not the writers (via our characters), nor any of the fans on various message boards. 

A thousand upvotes for you!  Can't you imagine the Army of the Dead being funneled through a cold, wintry pass and ambushed in a spectacular series of wildfire detonations?   Spare the dragons, nuke the enemy with wildfire.

I do not think Tyrion knows Qyburn can produce wyldfire.  For all he knows some was used in battle of Blackwater and the rest was used by CErsei to blow up the High Septor.

 

ETA: Wyldfire is going to be Cersei's defense vs WW should Jon and DAny lose.  Lure all the WW into KL and set the whole city in green fire :P

Edited August 29, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Tikichick]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

It never was an issue for Jon. First he was with the NW, which means no family or babies (though I couldn't buy the idea that they were all celibate). He could have possibly gotten Ygritte pregnant, but that just never happened in what little time they had together. And that's it for his sexual history up until now. He's a man who is (assumably) illegitimate, and has had a total of one sexual partner in his entire life! And without titles to pass on, no one was going to be worried if Jon could father children.

Dany, OTOH, is a claimant to the throne of Westeros and (as far as everyone up until now knows) the last of her family line. After the death of Khal Drogo and her son, she's had several sexual partners and was with Daario for a fairly extended period. She has not been pregnant since and her presumed infertility may very well mean the final extinction of the Targaryen line. Not being able to produce an heir is a big deal for a ruler - when Queen Elizabeth died with no natural heir, it was the end of the Tudor line and there was a period of political upheaval in the following decades. If Dany were a man, the last of his family line and unable to father children, it would be as serious a consideration. The inability to father a male heir was a driving force behind Henry VIII's worst abuses.

We know they weren't all celibate, they went to Moletown.

[rmontro]

It bugs me a little that Ned Stark knowingly sent off the rightful heir to the Iron Throne to go join the Night Watch.  I know Aemon did it, and there is honor in taking the black, but it just seems that he should have arranged something better for him.

[stillshimpy]

16 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Or you're terrified about something. There had to be a reason why Lyanna would keep her wedding a secret from her own family. I doubt that Rhaeger would bother since as crown prince, there was a lot he could get away with. But I get the feeling that there was something going on that was bad enough for Lyanna to flee not just her unwanted betrothed, Robert, but her family as well.

I concede that point readily.  Brandon Stark in the books is such a butt munch that I bet he was a treat to grow up with and Rickard Stark was apparently not above social climbing and power grasping.  

But in the first book, Ned has a lot of POV chapters and never once is it hinted at that there was anything untoward at home, so she may have been fleeing a pack of jackasses but that doesn't absolve her of anything that occurred afterward.  

I completely get not wanting to marry Robert.  His entire grief response suggested that he viewed her as a possession.  Maybe Rhaegar didn't. 

But wow, a lot of people paid dearly and we know a lot of those people didn't deserve those fates.  Did Ned deserve the chill fest he arrived home to that stretched into years and was the reason that Jon was emotionally abused by Catelyn?  

If you're scared, sure get to safety.  She went from whatever fire into an inferno of her own making.  She died for it, but among the undeserving, I've no reason to count her among them yet. 

That could be a yet, in the books, but on the screen?  Whoa.  So there's no "or" on that, there's a possible "and" to my mind but her problem solving skills were atrocious. 

Again, I say with feeling, that last scene was so sad to me because against all odds, Jon put his life together in a shape that made sense to him and he literally cried and died for it.  

Here comes wrecking ball Lyanna.  

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, rmontro said:

It bugs me a little that Ned Stark knowingly sent off the rightful heir to the Iron Throne to go join the Night Watch.  I know Aemon did it, and there is honor in taking the black, but it just seems that he should have arranged something better for him.

I've questioned this frequently, but at this point, I have to wonder if Ned wasn't told that he should send Jon to the Wall when the time came. When he has that sort of confrontation with Catelyn about where Jon should go because she won't have him stay in Winterfell, Maester Luwin mentions Jon's interest in going to the Wall and the reaction he has, it's like it dawns on him that it's where Jon should be. 

And Jeor Mormont has a similar reaction at Jon being at the Wall, that this is where he was meant to be. 

10 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I concede that point readily.  Brandon Stark in the books is such a butt munch that I bet he was a treat to grow up with and Rickard Stark was apparently not above social climbing and power grasping.  

But in the first book, Ned has a lot of POV chapters and never once is it hinted at that there was anything untoward at home, so she may have been fleeing a pack of jackasses but that doesn't absolve her of anything that occurred afterward.  

I completely get not wanting to marry Robert.  His entire grief response suggested that he viewed her as a possession.  Maybe Rhaegar didn't. 

But wow, a lot of people paid dearly and we know a lot of those people didn't deserve those fates.  Did Ned deserve the chill fest he arrived home to that stretched into years and was the reason that Jon was emotionally abused by Catelyn?  

If you're scared, sure get to safety.  She went from whatever fire into an inferno of her own making.  She died for it, but among the undeserving, I've no reason to count her among them yet. 

That could be a yet, in the books, but on the screen?  Whoa. 

I think this is where the majority of us are stuck, between the books and the show.

I can only speak for myself, but the stuff we got on screen doesn't track with the books. I'm just kind of sitting her cursing D&D for this because I think it's a heap of oversimplified fuckery. But then, I could be very wrong.

At this point I'm also assuming that J&D will name their baby Aegon, because you know...

Edited August 29, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I concede that point readily.  Brandon Stark in the books is such a butt munch that I bet he was a treat to grow up with and Rickard Stark was apparently not above social climbing and power grasping.  

But in the first book, Ned has a lot of POV chapters and never once is it hinted at that there was anything untoward at home, so she may have been fleeing a pack of jackasses but that doesn't absolve her of anything that occurred afterward.  

I completely get not wanting to marry Robert.  His entire grief response suggested that he viewed her as a possession.  Maybe Rhaegar didn't. 

But wow, a lot of people paid dearly and we know a lot of those people didn't deserve those fates.  Did Ned deserve the chill fest he arrived home to that stretched into years and was the reason that Jon was emotionally abused by Catelyn?  

If you're scared, sure get to safety.  She went from whatever fire into an inferno of her own making.  She died for it, but among the undeserving, I've no reason to count her among them yet. 

That could be a yet, in the books, but on the screen?  Whoa. 

Considering the way she grew up and what she was allowed to do in public , I doubt that she was bought up in a household where she was mentally or physically abused. The only reason why they hid was to stop the Starks from stopping the wedding until it was too late ( her having a baby).  That it occurred to neither of them that people would assume she was kidnapped and react accordingly, or that Brandon was a hothead who damn there got himself in trouble at that tournament or even that his father was insane is a bit appalling.  Especially given that Rhaegar was slated to rule the country in the near future. 

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Hee... according to the TV Tropes site, if Jon ever wanted to list all of his current titles and honorifics (as of this ep's reveal), his introductions would rival Dany's for length.

"Aegon VI Targaryen, Sixth of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, the King in the North and the Vale, King of Winter, the White Wolf, former 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch."

That will be a real mouthful.

Since Dany uses "the Unburnt" in her slew of titles, Jon could probably add in something like "the Risen" or "the Resurrected" too.

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

The other thing about that is the Targaryens have been practicing incest for hundreds of years (I'm being kind, I know that it is supposed to be thousands)

To be a little bit fair to the silver-haired freaks, prior to the Doom, there was a lot larger pool of Blood-of-the-Dragon types available in Valyria.  The Targ-on-Targ incest didn't really kick in as heavily until their other options were more limited (mostly the Valeryons of Driftmark and some Lyseni).

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Another thing that bothered me about Rhaegar and Lyanna - they were married by the Seven, even though Lyanna presumably followed the old religion. One more boundary she was violating to bring this about

It reminded me of Robb's wedding to Dr Talisa Medicine Woman - they did the recitation of the Seven pledge in front of a tree (not a weirwood since there weren't any in the area but still in a Godswood type setting rather than in a sept).  It was sort of a blend of Sansa's two wedding ceremonies.

 

Anyway, that was the impression I got, that the show-runners were trying to evoke the Robb/Talisa wedding imagery.  And we all know how well that worked out.

[Tikichick]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Unless they were sending secret ravens back and forth, the initial flee and hide in Dorne plan was all Rhaegars. Lyanna being the fierce independent woman that she is just went along with it.

A lot of things come down to ravens being sent or not.

[MrWhyt]

19 minutes ago, rmontro said:

It bugs me a little that Ned Stark knowingly sent off the rightful heir to the Iron Throne to go join the Night Watch.  I know Aemon did it, and there is honor in taking the black, but it just seems that he should have arranged something better for him.

He sent him there to protect him. Once he takes the oath as a brother of the watch he can't try to claim the throne, he is no longer a threat to Robert and Ned can reveal the truth about his parentage.

[Hana Chan]

17 minutes ago, rmontro said:

It bugs me a little that Ned Stark knowingly sent off the rightful heir to the Iron Throne to go join the Night Watch.  I know Aemon did it, and there is honor in taking the black, but it just seems that he should have arranged something better for him.

Conjecture on my part, but with little or no chance of Jon being able to be placed on the throne, my guess is that Ned's first and only priority with Jon was to hide him in one place where even if his identity was known, he wouldn't be seen as a threat to Robert and would be left alone. If Maester Aemon could stay safe there during Robert's genocidal rage, Jon would be protected because he would have renounced his claim to titles and lands. It probably wouldn't be a total guarantee since Robert likely would be stupid enough to try to have Jon killed, but with Robert visiting Winterfell and Ned being called to serve as Hand, it was probably the safest option for Jon.

[Tikichick]

21 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I concede that point readily.  Brandon Stark in the books is such a butt munch that I bet he was a treat to grow up with and Rickard Stark was apparently not above social climbing and power grasping.  

But in the first book, Ned has a lot of POV chapters and never once is it hinted at that there was anything untoward at home, so she may have been fleeing a pack of jackasses but that doesn't absolve her of anything that occurred afterward.  

I completely get not wanting to marry Robert.  His entire grief response suggested that he viewed her as a possession.  Maybe Rhaegar didn't. 

But wow, a lot of people paid dearly and we know a lot of those people didn't deserve those fates.  Did Ned deserve the chill fest he arrived home to that stretched into years and was the reason that Jon was emotionally abused by Catelyn?  

If you're scared, sure get to safety.  She went from whatever fire into an inferno of her own making.  She died for it, but among the undeserving, I've no reason to count her among them yet. 

That could be a yet, in the books, but on the screen?  Whoa. 

But we also have to remember that Ned spent many of his formative years away from WF.  Things may have gone on that he was either unaware of, or didn't loom large in his view because he wasn't there to witness them.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

That is an excellent point!

There are only a couple of people who know about wildfire at this point.  Cersei, Qyburn, and Tyrion.  Am I missing anyone else (besides the pyromancers)?

I don't think Cersei or Qyburn will offer it up as an strategic idea to use against the WWs and the Army of the Dead.  But Tyrion knows!  AND....Melisandre and the rest of the servants of R'hollor are still allied on Dany's side, although currently all in Essos.  But surely their magic might include the manufacture of wildfire.   Wildfire is a Targaryan invention, maybe Missandei can discover wildfire's origins in an old Valyrian book or something as well. 

I'm actually kind of shocked that I haven't seen anyone mention it before you have, here.  Not the writers (via our characters), nor any of the fans on various message boards. 

A thousand upvotes for you!  Can't you imagine the Army of the Dead being funneled through a cold, wintry pass and ambushed in a spectacular series of wildfire detonations?   Spare the dragons, nuke the enemy with wildfire.

Doesn't everyone who survived the Battle of Blackwater know about wildfire?  Certainly Bronn, Davos and the Hound know about it, and Jaimie told Brienne about the caches of wildfire that Aerys had placed around King's Landing.  Or are you asking who knows how much, if any, is left?

As for using wildfire against the Army of the Dead, some poster on TWoP who went by the name of Constantinople mentioned the possibility back in Season 2.  And I doubt he was the first.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Constantinople

[MadMouse]

"Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain"

 

Both Brandon and Robert were giant hypocritical assholes, who screwed their way across the Kingdom. But the thought of poor innocent Lyanna doing something even remotely similar, madness I tell you. Lyanna might have been stupid and impulsive but she was braver than 99% of the characters in the story.

[screamin]

13 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

A lot of things come down to ravens being sent or not.

That's the thing, though - Rhaegar SHOULD have announced the wedding with a hundred ravens to every stead in Westeros as soon as the bride was properly deflowered. Once Lyanna was no longer a virgin and made it clear that she'd gone with Rhaegar of her own free will, Robert wouldn't have wanted her any more and Brandon Stark would have been too embarrassed by his sister's 'immoral' behavior to demand a duel with Rhaegar. But apparently Rhaegar wanted it kept secret. Why?

[Juliegirlj]

Not sure if Cersai's pregnancy will be viable, but, the best karma of all would be for her to deliver a dwarf baby. Followed by a slow death, and her knowledge that Tyrian would raise the child after she dies.... Bonus points if Cersai is killed by Jaime ( Valonquor?) 

[Tikichick]

Just now, screamin said:

That's the thing, though - Rhaegar SHOULD have announced the wedding with a hundred ravens to every stead in Westeros as soon as the bride was properly deflowered. Once Lyanna was no longer a virgin and made it clear that she'd gone with Rhaegar of her own free will, Robert wouldn't have wanted her any more and Brandon Stark would have been too embarrassed by his sister's 'immoral' behavior to demand a duel with Rhaegar. But apparently Rhaegar wanted it kept secret. Why?

I'm not so sure he did.  My likeliest wildcard in the whole scenario is Varys -- who also happens to be fairly uselessly hanging around on the show.

[rmontro]

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

That's the thing, though - Rhaegar SHOULD have announced the wedding with a hundred ravens to every stead in Westeros as soon as the bride was properly deflowered. Once Lyanna was no longer a virgin and made it clear that she'd gone with Rhaegar of her own free will, Robert wouldn't have wanted her any more and Brandon Stark would have been too embarrassed by his sister's 'immoral' behavior to demand a duel with Rhaegar. But apparently Rhaegar wanted it kept secret. Why?

Yeah, this is my biggest problem with the entire story.  Maybe all will be revealed to everyone's satisfaction, but the reasons why the wedding was secret, and where the whole kidnapping tale came from, all seem a little bit fuzzy at this point.  It's almost like the answer is "so we can tell this story".  It seems a bit contrived.

Maybe Rhaeger was just scared to death of Robert Baratheon lol.

[stillshimpy]

37 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Considering the way she grew up and what she was allowed to do in public , I doubt that she was bought up in a household where she was mentally or physically abused. The only reason why they hid was to stop the Starks from stopping the wedding until it was too late ( her having a baby).  That it occurred to neither of them that people would assume she was kidnapped and react accordingly, or that Brandon was a hothead who damn there got himself in trouble at that tournament or even that his father was insane is a bit appalling.  Especially given that Rhaegar was slated to rule the country in the near future. 

I'm just conceding that there's a possibility that Lyanna's motives were less entirely self-involved, I think we know that she wasn't abused or that it is very unlikely.  

Mostly, I care solely because these are questions Jon is now being set up to ask of Deadpan Bran.  

The worst of it is that he'll feel betrayed by Ned long before he ever gets around to "Wow, did you ever pull one over on the Kingdoms!" because truthfully, Ned did betray Jon by letting him join the Night's Watch without giving him even the tiniest hint that there were reasons not to.  

What Ned did was very self-sacrificing and honored his sister's memory but it is also the reason Catelyn was such an ass to him.  It's also the reason he grew up feeling worthless. 

Now, it's set up to be the reason that he projectile vomits when he finds out who he just fucked. I don't believe Jon would have made that choice had he possessed that information, so he was just betrayed on an emotional level again by the secret keepers of the kingdoms. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Mabinogia]

Just now, stillshimpy said:

Deadpan Bran

Best name EVER! Because it rhymes.

But really, so much of this shitstorm could have been avoided if these two assholes had announced their marriage, the birth of their child and told anyone who didn't like the fact he left his first wife to go fuck themselves. Why did it all have to be a big bloody secret?  

[stillshimpy]

36 minutes ago, mac123x said:

To be a little bit fair to the silver-haired freaks, prior to the Doom, there was a lot larger pool of Blood-of-the-Dragon types available in Valyria.  The Targ-on-Targ incest didn't really kick in as heavily until their other options were more limited (mostly the Valeryons of Driftmark and some Lyseni).

Cersei, in defense of her relationship with Jaime, said to Ned, "The Targaryens married brother to sister for thousands of years."  So the royal Targaryen line was extra troubled by inbreeding.  

Argh.   On so many levels, this is just a tragic story. 

[stillshimpy]

13 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I'm not so sure he did.  My likeliest wildcard in the whole scenario is Varys -- who also happens to be fairly uselessly hanging around on the show.

Varys in the books is a Targaryen loyalist, so that doesn't track.  In the show, he's the "I serve the people, someone must" guy.  Wars don't serve anyone. 

21 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

But the thought of poor innocent Lyanna doing something even remotely similar, madness I tell you. Lyanna might have been stupid and impulsive but she was braver than 99% of the characters in the story.

There's nothing brave about hiding in a tower while the world burns around you.  Brave would have been facing the people who loved her and telling them to get soaked.  

[Oscirus]

19 minutes ago, screamin said:

That's the thing, though - Rhaegar SHOULD have announced the wedding with a hundred ravens to every stead in Westeros as soon as the bride was properly deflowered. Once Lyanna was no longer a virgin and made it clear that she'd gone with Rhaegar of her own free will, Robert wouldn't have wanted her any more and Brandon Stark would have been too embarrassed by his sister's 'immoral' behavior to demand a duel with Rhaegar. But apparently Rhaegar wanted it kept secret. Why?

In that scenario,  Lyanna gets disowned and the Starks and baratheons still call their banners. Brandon and Rickard still live but I believe the war still happens.

[stillshimpy]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

It's been a while since I read the books.  I did recently within the last year or so read "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" which was about Sir Duncan and his squire named Egg, who turned out to really be Aegon Targaryen.  Someone please kindly remind me who he is in the house.  I'm assuming he's Daenerys' grandfather or great-grandfather?

If Jon's real name is Aegon Targaryen and he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he just slept with his hot aunt.  Although I guess this is a world in which brother and sister sleep with each other, so maybe it's not as icky as I had first thought when I was watching.

Someone also kindly remind me, since it's been years since I read the latest book, I vaguely remember that there was a character named Aegon that claimed to be the son of Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.  I think he was presumed dead but is now an adult?  It seems like this character is absent from the show, at least for now?

He's referred to as (f)Aegon, he's not in the show and he's alive in the books.  He's in the company of Varys and Tyrion at present with John Connington (I think that's the name) who likely has grey scale and was also in love with Rhaegar. 

43 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

But we also have to remember that Ned spent many of his formative years away from WF.  Things may have gone on that he was either unaware of, or didn't loom large in his view because he wasn't there to witness them.

Doesn't quite work because apparently Robert and Lyanna knew one another, so they weren't entirely isolated at the Eyrie.   Robert and Ned were raised at the Eyrie by Jon Arryn so Ned did spend time away from home but he also started out at home.  He knew his brother, he knew his sister (who really imposed on him a lot) , he knew his father.  

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

In that scenario,  Lyanna gets disowned and the Starks and baratheons still call their banners. Brandon and Rickard still live but I believe the war still happens.

Or Jon Arryn arranges a different, equally advantageous marriage for Robert and there's no war.  

[screamin]

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

In that scenario,  Lyanna gets disowned and the Starks and baratheons still call their banners. Brandon and Rickard still live but I believe the war still happens.

Lyanna was a girl, she wasn't going to inherit anything anyway. And Rickard Stark, once he got over the initial annoyance at being made a fool of by his daughter, might start to see advantages to having a grandchild in line to inherit the Iron Throne - he WAS described as "ambitious" IIRC. Robert was still a minor at the Vale in Jon Arryn's custody - Jon Arryn would likely counsel calm, and it's worth noting that Robert didn't actually raise his banners and declare war till Aerys threatened him. But say Robert DID declare war - he'd likely have a lot fewer lords following him. A lord whose fiancée was kidnapped by the son of the Mad King who now demands his head is a tragic, heroic figure. But a mere public cuckold is a lot less likely to inspire a general revolt, IMO.

I think the ones most likely to declare war would be the Dorne and MAYBE Robert.  I doubt the Starks would join in if Lyanna could be shown to have left of her own free will.

Edited August 29, 2017 by screamin

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, stillshimpy said:

Varys in the books is a Targaryen loyalist, so that doesn't track.  In the show, he's the "I serve the people, someone must" guy.  Wars don't serve anyone. 

He's not though. He seems to be on the surface, but Varys is an agent of chaos. He contributed even more to Aerys's paranoia of his son, he somehow managed to convince the man to leave the Red Keep after he sat there for years and go to the tourney of Harrenhal. He undermined whatever plans he had set in motion. He didn't want Aerys to open the gates to Tywin because he was smart enough to know that Tywin wasn't coming to save King's Landing once Rhaegar had died on the Trident. 

Varys was planning on having Viserys arrive in Westeros at the head of 40,000 Dothraki screamers. We know what the Dothraki do when they sack villages. They pillage, rape and enslave. No one in the Seven Kingdoms would ever support Viserys's claim to the throne after this. Varys isn't looking to support a Targaryen restoration, he is looking to use it to put someone on the throne and rule through them. 

On the show he's a Targaryen loyalist, but that's because they shredded his story when they got rid of the Aegon plot. 

Because they needed the name for Jon.

[mac123x]

15 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Mostly, I care solely because these are questions Jon is now being set up to ask of Deadpan Bran.

Jon:  "They tore the country apart and destroyed thousands of people's lives!  What were they thinking!?"

RoboBran:  "I'll tell you off camera, because we're saving that for the Game of Thrones prequel (working title The Phantom Menace) coming to HBO summer 2020"

[stillshimpy]

9 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

He's not though. He seems to be on the surface, but Varys is an agent of chaos. He contributed even more to Aerys's paranoia of his son, he somehow managed to convince the man to leave the Red Keep after he sat there for years and go to the tourney of Harrenhal. He undermined whatever plans he had set in motion. He didn't want Aerys to open the gates to Tywin because he was smart enough to know that Tywin wasn't coming to save King's Landing once Rhaegar had died on the Trident. 

Varys was planning on having Viserys arrive in Westeros at the head of 40,000 Dothraki screamers. We know what the Dothraki do when they sack villages. They pillage, rape and enslave. No one in the Seven Kingdoms would ever support Viserys's claim to the throne after this. Varys isn't looking to support a Targaryen restoration, he is looking to use it to put someone on the throne and rule through them. 

On the show he's a Targaryen loyalist, but that's because they shredded his story when they got rid of the Aegon plot. 

Because they needed the name for Jon.

He's with Aegon in the books and claims to be a Targ supporter, isn't he?  Varys planned on having Viserys arrive with the Dothraki horde to restore a Targaryen to the throne.  

Also, if Varys doesn't make the announcement like he's supposed to, you just find someone who will. 

I don't think the show stands a prayer of covering much of this, and I kind of assumed they don't wish to because it's really convoluted even with what we do know.   

As it pertains to the characters now, it's so much freaking worse for Jon because whereas Sansa and Arya, for the sake of alotted time, are really likely to say, "Well, you're still family...? So, we still feel the same(ish) about you."  

But again, poor fucking Jon.   

It won't be quite the same level of mindscrew to Dany except for the "Uh, Jon's actually in line before you..." of it all.  But also, most people would be kind of disturbed by accidentally having sex with a blood relative (really closely related one) even without any emotional incest.  Dany might not freak because they practically flashed in the sky that she's going to get knocked up by the seeds from the family tree (barf) so she may view it as the penis that was promised? 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

Robert was still a minor at the Vale in Jon Arryn's custody - Jon Arryn would likely counsel calm, and it's worth noting that Robert didn't actually raise his banners and declare war till Aerys threatened him. But say Robert DID declare war - he'd likely have a lot fewer lords following him. A lord whose fiancée was kidnapped by the son of the Mad King who now demands his head is a tragic, heroic figure.

No, he wasn't a minor. Robert was about 20 when the war started. His parents died when he was 16 and even at 16, he is considered an adult by Westrosi standards. He and Ned remained in the Vale long after they reached adulthood.

Which I don't even understand why they didn't go back home after they reached that age.

[screamin]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

No, he wasn't a minor. Robert was about 20 when the war started. His parents died when he was 16 and even at 16, he is considered an adult by Westrosi standards. He and Ned remained in the Vale long after they reached adulthood.

Which I don't even understand why they didn't go back home after they reached that age.

Ah, I stand corrected. And I agree it was weird that they were still there (I assumed that they were still minors BECAUSE they were there).

But I still think that Robert might NOT have gone to war if Lyanna had proven herself a 'slut' in his eyes. He didn't go to war when he thought Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped her; he waited till Aerys threatened him, so he DID have the capacity to act sensibly under Jon's direction.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Or Jon Arryn arranges a different, equally advantageous marriage for Robert and there's no war.  

Truth be told, his anger at the loss of lyanna had more to do with the fact that he couldn't be Ned's brother than anything else. 

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

Lyanna was a girl, she wasn't going to inherit anything anyway. And Rickard Stark, once he got over the initial annoyance at being made a fool of by his daughter, might start to see advantages to having a grandchild in line to inherit the Iron Throne - he WAS described as "ambitious" IIRC. Robert was still a minor at the Vale in Jon Arryn's custody - Jon Arryn would likely counsel calm, and it's worth noting that Robert didn't actually raise his banners and declare war till Aerys threatened him. But say Robert DID declare war - he'd likely have a lot fewer lords following him. A lord whose fiancée was kidnapped by the son of the Mad King who now demands his head is a tragic, heroic figure. But a public cuckold is a lot less likely to inspire a general revolt, IMO.

I think the ones most likely to declare war would be the Dorne and MAYBE Robert.  I doubt the Starks would join in if Lyanna could be shown to have left of her own free will.

Lyanna would lose her family but that ultimately  affects nothing. As to the Starks, I can't imagine that they'd allow someone to interrupt family politics without any repurcussions. If they did so, they'd appear weak and that would be even worse. Not sure if the Baratheon s would be cool with the Targs shitting on them again after what was done to them in the not so distant past.

[YaddaYadda]

51 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

He's with Aegon in the books and claims to be a Targ supporter, isn't he?  Varys planned on having Viserys arrive with the Dothraki horde to restore a Targaryen to the throne.  

Also, if Varys doesn't make the announcement like he's supposed to, you just find someone who will. 

I'm not disagreeing with the Aegon part. Because yes, Varys is standing behind Aegon who is supposedly Elia and Rhaegar's son. But Aegon is a puppet for Varys and he and Illyrio are manipulating the situation.

Imagine unstable, volatile Viserys arriving in the Seven Kingdoms at the head of a Dothraki army. Viserys is used as a destructive force to introduce Aegon who is more than likely not who Varys claims he is. If Varys wanted to support the Targaryens, he would have supported the guy whom Tywin and Barristan agree would have made a fine king, not undermined him. Varys has no interest in the Targaryens. His interested lies solely on this "boy he grew from a bean." Aegon, his pretend dragon. 

Anyway...I think we can all agree that Varys is a merman.

Edited August 29, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[ulkis]

re: Rhaegar and Lyanna, I judge her less harshly than him. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by ulkis

[Hana Chan]

Am imagining all kinds of weirdness now in the Stark household with Jon growing up and Ned looking for any Targaryen traits that might let the secret out.

"Cat, I'm going out to do some justice stuff. Can you watch Jon around the fire?"

"The fire, you say?"

"Just... don't let him try to eat it or anything weird."

"...."

"You know... kids..."

(I can't take credit for this - inspired by Tumblr)

[Tikichick]

11 minutes ago, doram said:

Especially if (in the books) Varys had started as far back as then to plot the Blackfyre Coup that is theorised to be the purpose of fAegon.

Notably this season his scenes appear to be a bit foreshadowing -- tense with Danaerys; nervous with Melisandre; commiserating, worrying or manipulating Tyrion -- but absolutely part of the party to return to KL and witness the demo in the dragon pit.  

Seems kind of a peculiar thread to keep sitting there loose and I would think budget constraints would have had them culling non essential named actors by now.

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, screamin said:

Ah, I stand corrected. And I agree it was weird that they were still there (I assumed that they were still minors BECAUSE they were there).

But I still think that Robert might NOT have gone to war if Lyanna had proven herself a 'slut' in his eyes. He didn't go to war when he thought Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped her; he waited till Aerys threatened him, so he DID have the capacity to act sensibly under Jon's direction.

That's the thing with not knowing anything about this story. 

Jon Arryn didn't call his banners when his nephew and heir was murdered by the Mad King but he did when Ned and Robert's heads were called for. 

All in all, had Aerys been satisfied (yeah, I know what I said and how awful it sounds) with the murders of Rickard, Brandon, the Mallister kid, the Arryn heir, possibly their fathers and the 200 northmen that Rickard had brought with him, and left Ned and Robert out of this, we may not even have had a rebellion. Hoster Tully didn't join the war until he married his daughters off, and even then not all his bannermen fought on the side of the rebellion. The Vale was divided and Robert fought two of his own bannermen that we know of during the battle of Summerhall. 

I think the only reason Ned and Robert called their banners was because Jon Arryn called his. Once he committed, done is done. Can't walk it back and can't leave him to twist in the wind.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

There are only a couple of people who know about wildfire at this point.  Cersei, Qyburn, and Tyrion.  Am I missing anyone else (besides the pyromancers)?

Doesn't anyone who was at the Battle of Blackwater Bay know about wildfyre?  I think Davos does, certainly.  Bronn?  They may not know where it is stored or how to make it, but neither do Cersei or Tyrion.

[Hana Chan]

It would be interesting if the connection of the Golden Company to the Targaryens (the company having been founded by one of Aegon's bastard sons) might throw a serious monkey wrench into Cersei's plans. Not to mention Jorah having been a member at one point. Because if they decide to break their contract and side with Dany and Jon, that would be something Cersei would never see coming.

[MadMouse]

57 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Varys in the books is a Targaryen loyalist, so that doesn't track.  In the show, he's the "I serve the people, someone must" guy.  Wars don't serve anyone. 

There's nothing brave about hiding in a tower while the world burns around you.  Brave would have been facing the people who loved her and telling them to get soaked.  

Varys in the books is more than likely a Blackfyre loyalist.

We have no idea what either Lyanna or Rhaegar knew about was happening in the Kingdom.

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

We have no idea what either Lyanna or Rhaegar knew about was happening in the Kingdom.

If they couldn't find him, they couldn't reach him. It doesn't look like he left a forwarding address. They went underground...in a tower.

Edited August 29, 2017 by YaddaYadda