S07.E05: Eastwatch

[MrsR]

My point about Ollie and the other assassins of Jon is that once someone kills you they may want to kill you again. So it might be best if you kill them if you want to continue living. 

 

That's pragmatic.

[TaurusRose]

40 minutes ago, doram said:

Is it really that simple?

 

Ollie was a 10-year-old boy who joined a military organisation as a traumatised war orphan/refugee and was made into a child soldier. He and the other mutineers genuinely believed they were working in the Night's Watch best interest by removing a dangerous, radical leader who had broken his vows by opening the Wall to let in the dangerous murderers and rapists they'd been fighting against for centuries. Who had also murdered and cannibalised his family.

He should have been given counselling. He could have been banished from the Night's Watch. 

 

Counseling?  Banished from the NW? Really? I guess I should just preface this by saying I am not applying 21st century sensibilities to anything occurring in Westeros. So, yes. It's really that simple. A crime was committed. The guilty were executed. I repeat: actions, consequences. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by taurusrose

[TaurusRose]

46 minutes ago, Couver said:

If Randyl and Dickon deserved a pardon then certainly a young boy shaped by violence should be given the same benefit.

Two entirely different situations, so no.

[TaurusRose]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Chill! I have no stake in the Ollie/Jon feud. If you follow my quote-backs, you'll see that I brought it up specifically because of the bolded: that if we're going to condemn some people with 21st century sensibilities, we're going to need to apply that metric across board. My Ollie meta was an exercise in that.

There's no reason for me to chill as I'm not upset about anything.  

[BitterApple]

My two cents is that none of the major players have clean hands nor are they entirely noble. I think people tend to condemn or give a pass based on their feelings for a character. 

If we're looking at it from a strictly black and white perspective, Jon killing Ollie is no different than Dany roasting the Tarlys. Leaders need to be strong in their world and there's no Get Out Of Jail Free cards. Regardless of Ollie's or Randyll's motivations, they came out on the losing end, and losers didn't fare well during the Dark Ages. The show is just staying consistent with the time period. Also, I don't think kids were really kids back then, meaning they weren't judged by a different set of rules. If you fucked up, you suffered the same consequences as an adult.

Edited August 15, 2017 by BitterApple

[CeeBeeGee]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Oleanna went out like a champ. The Tarlys went out like morons. If they were champs, one they wouldn't have been captured, and two they would have bent the knee, found out what was going on over at Dragonstone then tried to escape to give intel to their beloved sadist Queen Cercei. Instead they stood there like idiots and said, yes, please kill us, we are pretty useless.

If Dany hadn't fried them she might as well have packed up her dragons and headed back to Essos because she won't win this war if she doesn't crisp a lot of Lannister soldiers. Or just torch the fucking Keep with Cersei and her pathetic lapdog Jaime and tell Tyrion that if he doesn't like it he can go stand in front of Drogon for just a sec, while she says the magic word. (yes, I've about had it with all the Lannisters)

Right?!  The Tarlys went out like "champs"?! Lord Tarly could have saved his son and his House. As Tyrion pointed out, his allegiances were "flexible"--he had already betrayed House Martell. But rather than submit to a woman with dragons who handed his ass to him conqueror--and with virtually NO consequences, he wasn't even going to be attainted--he chose to abandon his wife and daughter who are waiting for him back at Horn Hll. He chose his "honor" over his wife and daughter. Where was his honor when he abandoned Lady Olenna? Fuck him. He's an old school POS (although I feel bad for Dickon).

 

BTW the world of GOT is not the Dark Ages, it is the Late Middle Ages. The Dark Ages were truly chaotic--the Late Middle Ages were sort of crazy but at least they had the theory, the idea of nationalism and a national identity (usually unified by language). The power structure was shifting from pure feudalism to a stronger monarchy (unified, again, by language). The Dark Ages were just a mess. GOT is like the Wars of the Roses + the Black Death (the White Walkers).

[Chinspinner]

12 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Not clear to you because in an interview with EW, the writer of the episode stated:

“At least Dany offers them a choice. Every conqueror offers the choice of ‘bend the knee or die.’ These lords disobeyed her and disrespected her in rebellion against the rightful queen. Then she gives them a way out and they don’t take it. Her deal wasn’t even ‘I’ll let you live.’ They could have kept all their titles and land. So, yes, in one way, it’s a horrible death. On the other hand, they kind of asked for it. It’s a win-win situation and they somehow managed to find the ‘lose’ in that.”

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/13/game-of-thrones-eastwatch/

A GOT writer is not going to give away character arcs: that is a spoiler. He answered a simple question with a simple answer, and even then he sat on the fence. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Chinspinner

[Lady S.]

21 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

At the same time, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for Tyrion and Varys clutching their pearls about Dany killing people. This is war. Did they really think that there would be a peaceful and bloodless coup? I'm not saying that Dany should fry everyone in her path extra crispy, but at the same time it seems a bit naive for Tyrion and Varys to think that no one would die in the quest for the throne. They're acting like this is a shock.

I liked how not long after that Davos pointed out that Tyrion killed his son with wildfire. I guess Tyrion never got the chance to walk through ashes after Blackwater and mourn soldiers who fought for House Baratheon instead of House Lannister.

I don't think Tyrion's solution for Dickon would have even worked. A guy stubborn enough to want to die with his father after watching his comrades burn alive probably isn't going to change his mind in a few weeks after watching his father burn too and being thrown in a cell. Not unless they starved or tortured him into submission, which is hardly a humane solution. I also doubt they have enough dungeon cells on Dragonstone for everyone reluctant to bend the knee.

Yes, Robb took Jaime and other Lannisters prisoner, because the other side had Stark hostages and he was a northerner with no interest in conquering all 7K. if he wanted the Iron Throne instead of just being KitN, he probably would have had some interest in southerners bending the knee. Just like Dany had no interest in forcing slaves to their knees because they weren't her subjects and she never intended to rule any Essosi until she got bogged down in Meereen. Different objectives in Westeros doesn't change the fact that she did break chains for Missandei and the rest. To me that's like saying Cersei's not a brotherfucker because she only fucks her twin while trying to kill the other brother.

So Cersei thinks she can defeat Dothraki and dragons with enough gold for sellswords? Jaime should tell her Bronn's thoughts on whether promises of payment are worth more to a mercenary than not getting horribly killed.

[voiceover]

6 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Jon's lucky he's cute.

Yay! This week's t-shirt!!

[Lady S.]

Something I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't found it pointed out elsewhere is that Dany appears to be briefly feeling Jon's majestic cloak, for no apparent reason, right before asking about the knife to the heart comment. 

Girl's got it bad, though Jon's playing much harder to get.

All mad tyrants love men who refuse to submit to them and insist on equal status as another monarch, right?

[Macbeth]

16 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I also don't understand how they plan to catch a white walker and bring it back either.  Seems convoluted and difficult. 

I don't know about catching.  But Michonne from The Walking Dead has the whole treating the dead as prisoners down pat.

 

 

Apparently what you need to do is to take off the dead's lower jaw and arms and that essentially disarms them.

I know - I don't think the Wight's can be so easily cowed.  But it is worth a try.

[paigow]

Dragonstone proved too much for the man

Now he's going to back to find

A simpler place and time

Edited August 15, 2017 by paigow
Davos told me

[RedHawk]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Technically, Sam has not fathered any children. The toddler is a genetic trainwreck that seems to be extremely lucky [healthy] so far....There is no House Of Tarly to take over anyway...the army and bannermen are dead / captured. 

There's still a castle and a mother and sister. I hope the day will come when the Night's Watch will be honorably disbanded because it's no longer needed, and Sam, Gilly, and Baby Sam can go home. Then Sam the Slayer can spend the rest of his life reading in a comfortable chair. 

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

There's still a castle and a mother and sister. I hope the day will come when the Night's Watch will be honorably disbanded because it's no longer needed, and Sam, Gilly, and Baby Sam can go home. Then Sam the Slayer can spend the rest of his life reading in a comfortable chair. 

And repopulating his domain. :) Craster's daughters were pretty darned fertile.

[CeeBeeGee]

1 minute ago, RedHawk said:

There's still a castle and a mother and sister. I hope the day will come when the Night's Watch will be honorably disbanded because it's no longer needed, and Sam, Gilly, and Baby Sam can go home. Then Sam the Slayer can spend the rest of his life reading in a comfortable chair. 

Yeah, House Tarly is much more than just the army--vassals didn't really maintain standing armies anyway. There's a whole estate, Horn Hill--Sam's family is shown to be quite well off (they even have had a sword made of Valyrian steel).

[Lady S.]

3 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

8 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

There's still a castle and a mother and sister. I hope the day will come when the Night's Watch will be honorably disbanded because it's no longer needed, and Sam, Gilly, and Baby Sam can go home. Then Sam the Slayer can spend the rest of his life reading in a comfortable chair. 

And repopulating his domain. :) Craster's daughters were pretty darned fertile.

And writing about all the adventures in this saga like Bilbo Baggins (and the other characters who added onto his manuscript after the LotR events ended), right? We already had the moment in an earlier ep where Maester Slughorn says he's writing a record of the wars since King Robert's death and Sam muses it could use a more poetic title.

Good thing Sam took the family sword so there was no chance Randyll had it on his person when he died. 

[Bec]

It would be hilarious if the ending of Game of Thrones is Sam writing a book called "A Song of Ice and Fire".

Nah, this show wouldn't do something that cheesy... right?

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Yeah, House Tarly is much more than just the army--vassals didn't really maintain standing armies anyway. There's a whole estate, Horn Hill--Sam's family is shown to be quite well off (they even have had a sword made of Valyrian steel).

Did we get a glimpse of that sword as Sam drove away from the Citadel? I've been looking for it every time they show his quarters.

Speaking of weapons, why were the Magnificent 7, aka Jon and the others going north of the Wall, not carrying weapons made of dragonglass? Surely they could fashion something for each man from a small load they carried from the Dragonstone mines, which I assume are still in full operation.

51 minutes ago, Bec said:

It would be hilarious if the ending of Game of Thrones is Sam writing a book called "A Song of Ice and Fire".

Nah, this show wouldn't do something that cheesy... right?

The way they're going now? Hmmm....

[scrb]

So have Jaime and Bron concluded that they don't have a weapon for the dragons?

After all Scorpion did hurt Dragon for awhile.

You'd think Jaime would report that to Cersei and Qyburn, tell them to have several Scorpions ready to go?

Instead Jaime was all "we have no chance" and Bron was "I'm not fighting dragons again."

They did lose a big chunk of their army but still ...

You'd also think the Iron Bank might reconsider backing Cersei after the reports of what happened to the Lannister army and the loot train?

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Speaking of weapons, why were the Magnificent 7, aka Jon and the others going north of the Wall, not carrying weapons made of dragonglass? Surely they could fashion something for each man from a small load they carried from the Dragonstone mines, which I assume are still in full operation.

I was wondering that myself. Which is part of the reason I call them the "semi-Magnificent 7"

[Lady S.]

8 minutes ago, scrb said:

So have Jaime and Bron concluded that they don't have a weapon for the dragons?

After all Scorpion did hurt Dragon for awhile.

Not much, he seemed pretty strong this ep, which started moments after the battle ended. The now destroyed scorpion seemed like pretty intricate machinery so I doubt Qyburn has a way to mass produce them in a matter of days. (Which is how fast Jaime was expecting another attack before meeting with Tyrion.) Even with 4 or more of them, trying to shoot down all three while they're starting fires all over the city does not sound like good odds to me. That's without even considering the possibility of those flames hitting a forgotten cache of the Mad King's wildfire.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

There's still a castle and a mother and sister.

Not if it becomes "New Dothrak Town"....

[paigow]

24 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I was wondering that myself. Which is part of the reason I call them the "semi-Magnificent 7"

I thought Jorah had a crate of weapons on the beach...but Motley Crue probably did a Deadpool and left the ammo bag on the Uber boat....

[Giselle]

16 hours ago, doram said:

I think declaring Jon Snow - Murderer of 10-Year Old Boys - as "good" definitely falls under the "arguing that other people are worse" category.

I agree with you when it comes to better/worse comparisons, they all have their faults, but I don't consider Jon Snow's execution of the 10 year old boy murder. The boy did conspire, commit treason and murdered Jon. He was not innocent and was executed for his crimes. It wasn't unjust.

That Jon was later risen from the dead in no way lessens the act of the boy.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Giselle

[The Kings Foot]

14 hours ago, doram said:

 

Tell that to people who defend 13-year old Sansa's season 1 actions.

 

 

 

Sorry , which actions are you referring to ? Ned Stark summed up Sansa's position quite wellin his talk with Arya

"Sansa will be married to Joffrey someday. . . .she must take his side, even when he's wrong "

Edited August 15, 2017 by The Kings Foot

[Clanstarling]

22 minutes ago, Giselle said:

I agree with you when it comes to better/worse comparisons, they all have their faults, but I don't consider Jon Snow's execution of the 10 year old boy murder. The boy did conspire, commit treason and murdered Jon. He was not innocent and was executed for his crimes. It wasn't unjust.

That Jon was later risen from the dead in no way lessens the act of the boy.

Not getting into the discussion of who was worse  - I'm just curious. Where is it established that Olly was 10  - for the series, not the books, as some characters were aged up a bit. He was in three seasons of GoT - so was he 7 when he first appeared? I did some checking but haven't found a definitive answer.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Not if it becomes "New Dothrak Town"....

When it comes to doling out land - seems like the Dothraki would prefer Dorne. Though technically, I suppose they're still allies... 

[CletusMusashi]

Even when saying "Bend the knee or die," Danaerys is willing to take a litle bit of time discussing it with each individual person. 

As far as Jon killing Ollie goes... come on. Who the hell didn't want to kill Ollie?

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Even when saying "Bend the knee or die," Danaerys is willing to take a litle bit of time discussing it with each individual person. 

As far as Jon killing Ollie goes... come on. Who the hell didn't want to kill Ollie?

Well, I didn't. I had some sympathy for Olly's anguish. But, this is a story about a brutal world with formerly ironclad rules and terrible consequences for criminal actions. Like Lady Mormont, who is accepted as an adult on her own terms, he was treated as an adult and suffered for his own brutal choices. There is a certain respect to that - in a convoluted sort of way.

[Giselle]

47 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Not much, he seemed pretty strong this ep, which started moments after the battle ended. The now destroyed scorpion seemed like pretty intricate machinery so I doubt Qyburn has a way to mass produce them in a matter of days. (Which is how fast Jaime was expecting another attack before meeting with Tyrion.) Even with 4 or more of them, trying to shoot down all three while they're starting fires all over the city does not sound like good odds to me. That's without even considering the possibility of those flames hitting a forgotten cache of the Mad King's wildfire.

While they may be able to build more scorpions Dany now is aware of these weapons and can adjust her strategy of attack and defense.

[Giselle]

39 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Not getting into the discussion of who was worse  - I'm just curious. Where is it established that Olly was 10  - for the series, not the books, as some characters were aged up a bit. He was in three seasons of GoT - so was he 7 when he first appeared? I did some checking but haven't found a definitive answer.

Someone gave the age as 10 and I was quotingthat. For that world and feudal culture I would have no issues if the kid was 8 and was hung. He held a grudge that influenced his actions. Who is to say he wouldn't try it again when he wasn't a pup.

[Bats27]

I have no sympathy for Randall whatsoever. He got what he deserved.  He was so quick to betray Olenna in order to work with the madwoman who killed his lord and said lord's entire family.  Then helped to sack Highgarden and plunder The Reach of all of it's food/resources, and is a a-hole to his own soldiers and other son to boot.  So why would I have a problem with what Dany did here?  She gave him a choice, heck she even seemed open to the idea of him donning the black, and he made his decision crystal clear.  Well you reap what you sow Randall.

As for Dickton, yeah it sucked what happened to him. He seemed like an ok guy, if a bit stupid.

The Winterfell stuff had better not lead to a Sansa heel turn. That'd be ridiculous.

Ah poor Jamie, still cannot see the obvious when it's right in front of your face.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but marriages here cannot be annulled if there's children right?  So how could Rhaegar (who had children with Elia Martell) annul his marriage to her?

Dany so totally wants Jon, it's obvious at this point. I guess women love the handsome broody ones.

[Lady S.]

38 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Not getting into the discussion of who was worse  - I'm just curious. Where is it established that Olly was 10  - for the series, not the books, as some characters were aged up a bit. He was in three seasons of GoT - so was he 7 when he first appeared? I did some checking but haven't found a definitive answer.

It wasn't. All we know is he was younger than Bran at time of death. 10 is being assumed to make Jon look worse, because saying he hanged a 12/13 yo just wouldn't make the same point, I guess. (The actor would have been 13 when he first started filming in s4, FWIW.)

Speaking of Bran, I really hope Creepy Tree Dude meant more than raven-warging by "You will never walk again, but you will fly." because dragon-warging is the only way to redeem what's been done with the character.

My first thought when Arya mentioned beheading was that she'd make a bigger mess than Theon hacking off anyone's neck with her body strength and a dagger, even if it is Valyrian steel. But expecting beheadings to mean their army would stay intact is stupid for two other reasons: 1. beheading a lord usually doesn't endear you to their heir and even without the Rickard Karstark mess, you'd think a child of dear Headless Ned should know that much 2. one of those lords in question was Royce and not only would the Vale lords have the most forces, they're technically Robin Arryn's army and House Stark has no jurisdiction over his vassals.

Still no Ghost sighting but at least Sansa's shout-out more or less confirmed he's there at Winterfell. (I call bullshit that Jon would go on a mission where he could very well die again-not even knowing there'd be someone else around to bring him back-without reuniting with Bran/Arya first. But they're clearly determined to delay the Bran/Jon reunion until after Jon's boned his aunt.)

I don't get why Davos thought Gendry needed to be introduced to Jon as Clovis. The name Gendry means nothing to Jon and Davos had already used Gendry's name with Tyrion anyway.

[scrb]

Dany must have had an intuition that she'd meet a guy she'd be into when she dumped Dario.

None of that stuff about marrying for political reasons.

[Tyro49]

AS to the execution of Ollie, I did cringe a bit at the time, but....Ollie was still defiant. I think if at that point he had acted as a child and begged for mercy, Jon would have given it to him.

Just my thought on the matter.

[enoughcats]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Well, I didn't. I had some sympathy for Olly's anguish. But, this is a story about a brutal world with formerly ironclad rules and terrible consequences for criminal actions. Like Lady Mormont, who is accepted as an adult on her own terms, he was treated as an adult and suffered for his own brutal choices. There is a certain respect to that - in a convoluted sort of way.

      Let's step back to the Middle Ages when food wasn't all that plentiful, much less protein and fat.  Skinny, shorter people happened in less productive years.  Heck, stand next to Henry VIII's suit of armor at the Royal National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, and look him /his visor in the eye, and I'm 5'2".  He was wide, but he was short, and his width came with the perks of being king after his height was set.  

Ollie was slight of stature, but then his 'town' wasn't a land of milk, honey, meat and bread.  They looked poor.  

21 minutes ago, Bats27 said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but marriages here cannot be annulled if there's children right?

Even today annulments happen with children left in the lurch.  (At least one of RFK's children had a first marriage annulled.)  Back in the day, religion was chaotic....to which Pope did you go, to have a marriage annulled, the one in Avignon or the one in Italy?  

[Lady S.]

47 minutes ago, Bats27 said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but marriages here cannot be annulled if there's children right?  So how could Rhaegar (who had children with Elia Martell) annul his marriage to her?

We don't know, but either way Rhaegar's a huge cad even if he's not a rapist. I'd rather believe he was just desperate to get Lyanna into bed than that they were just so in love it was worth screwing over Elia and both of her children, leaving all three to die for the presumption that her children were still his heirs, along with every Dornishman who died fighting for Rhaegar on the Trident. (I also prefer to think Lyanna was not made aware of Rickard/Brandon's deaths until it was too late, because thinking she loved Rhaegar more than her family is more disgusting than romantic to me. And I don't think the Promise me, Ned scene supports the idea that she wanted Arthur Dayne to try to kill Ned either.)

Forgot to mention in any of my Dany defense that not wanting to abandon the throne to Cersei is never a bad thing. Cersei's not going to stop fighting just because the Mother of Dragons takes her children and her armies north, she'll send her new sellswords to re-take the Reach, the Westerlands, and every other kingdom she needs to take, and she'll still have the Iron Fleet to raid wherever they can. The fact that Tyrion, of all people, thinks she can be reasonably negotiated with is just an opening for Lena to continue into s8, which was also set up by all the Tyrell gold conveniently making it into King's Landing before Dany attacked. Jeor Mormont had it backwards thinking it doesn't matter who sits the Iron Throne when dead men are marching. That's when it matters most. The last thing anyone needs is a Joffrey or a Cersei needlessly terrorizing people when they should fighting the apocalypse. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Lady S.

[CeeBeeGee]

17 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

      Let's step back to the Middle Ages when food wasn't all that plentiful, much less protein and fat.  Skinny, shorter people happened in less productive years.  Heck, stand next to Henry VIII's suit of armor at the Royal National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, and look him /his visor in the eye, and I'm 5'2".  He was wide, but he was short, and his width came with the perks of being king after his height was set.  

Ollie was slight of stature, but then his 'town' wasn't a land of milk, honey, meat and bread.  They looked poor.  

Even today annulments happen with children left in the lurch.  (At least one of RFK's children had a first marriage annulled.)  Back in the day, religion was chaotic....to which Pope did you go, to have a marriage annulled, the one in Avignon or the one in Italy?  

Are you sure that was Henry VIII's armor? He was famously tall--his height is always given as over 6' (he took after his maternal grandfather--the Plantagenets tended to be tall).  Unless he just shrunk that much as he aged!

 

(Otherwise I agree with your point--Ollie was underfed and likely older than he appeared.)

 

Yeah, the Joe Kennedy annulment--pretty caddish to do to his twin sons (one of whom is now quite prominent in the House!).

[enoughcats]

24 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Are you sure that was Henry VIII's armor?

A bit more about the armor.  Specifically about its codpiece.  Most of the suit was darkened with age and exposure to air, but the codpiece was , er, polished, by tens of thousands of hands rubbing it, over time, to give them luck in conceiving children.  It seemed hellish ironic given VIII's problems with his queens, but not with his pieces on the side. 

Oh, how that codpiece sparkled as the light hit it.

When you are king, you are the most handsome man in the kingdom, everybody tells you so.  And syncophants never lie.  (And they tell you your codpiece is the largest one they've ever forged.)  (All that rubbing made it shrink)

[CeeBeeGee]

13 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

A bit more about the armor.  Specifically about its codpiece.  Most of the suit was darkened with age and exposure to air, but the codpiece was , er, polished, by tens of thousands of hands rubbing it, over time, to give them luck in conceiving children.  It seemed hellish ironic given VIII's problems with his queens, but not with his pieces on the side. 

Oh, how that codpiece sparkled as the light hit it.

When you are king, you are the most handsome man in the kingdom, everybody tells you so.  And syncophants never lie.  (And they tell you your codpiece is the largest one they've ever forged.)  (All that rubbing made it shrink)

Oh my God, I have to see this.

Alison Weir wrote a great, meticulously researched book really analyzing his household, and there is so much insight in all the tiny details.  Like, you could track his weight gain by how sums had gone to be paid to seamstresses to alter his clothes.  Also interestingly, he set a style--the men of the court started wearing doublets that were WAY too big for them, to mimic his profile (similar to Cersei's servant adopting her cropped hairstyle, to keep this on topic). Poor Henry, he was so handsome when he was younger but when he suffered that injury all those muscles started going to fat (like Robert Baratheon!).

[Giselle]

3 hours ago, Bats27 said:

I have no sympathy for Randall whatsoever. He got what he deserved.  He was so quick to betray Olenna in order to work with the madwoman who killed his lord and said lord's entire family.  Then helped to sack Highgarden and plunder The Reach of all of it's food/resources, and is a a-hole to his own soldiers and other son to boot.  So why would I have a problem with what Dany did here?  She gave him a choice, heck she even seemed open to the idea of him donning the black, and he made his decision crystal clear.  Well you reap what you sow Randall.

As for Dickton, yeah it sucked what happened to him. He seemed like an ok guy, if a bit stupid.

The Winterfell stuff had better not lead to a Sansa heel turn. That'd be ridiculous.

Ah poor Jamie, still cannot see the obvious when it's right in front of your face.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but marriages here cannot be annulled if there's children right?  So how could Rhaegar (who had children with Elia Martell) annul his marriage to her?

Dany so totally wants Jon, it's obvious at this point. I guess women love the handsome broody ones.

 

$$$$$ or proof of a private matter best kept secret if one wants to keep their position.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Giselle

[PatsyandEddie]

Just an FYI that children are not made illegimate by their parents' annulment in today's Catholic Church. That has happened for many decades which I know from personal experience. 

I just don't think that we can look at the religions of the GoT characters and presume to know what was intended. Jon was born legimately to R+L. His brother and sister were murdered which would move him up the chain of heirs to the throne IMO.

: going back into reading only

[Giselle]

Arya is the perfect reason why you hang young pups if they have already bitten and attacked.

[NeenerNeener]

5 minutes ago, Giselle said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but marriages here cannot be annulled if there's children right?  So how could Rhaegar (who had children with Elia Martell) annul his marriage to her?

Yeah, 30+ years ago I knew someone who's wife got an annulment of their marriage even though they had a two year old daughter and the husband didn't want the annulment. If you know the right bishop or cardinal and you have the $$$ it's fairly easy. I don't think it was even that expensive.

 

Ok, somebody please convince me that neither of these things I've been brooding about will happen:

1. Dead Hodor and Dead Summer will be seen in the Dead Army

2. Cersei will decide she would rather let the White Walkers have the North than deal with the Starks 

[Giselle]

1 minute ago, NeenerNeener said:

Yeah, 30+ years ago I knew someone who's wife got an annulment of their marriage even though they had a two year old daughter and the husband didn't want the annulment. If you know the right bishop or cardinal and you have the $$$ it's fairly easy. I don't think it was even that expensive.

 

Ok, somebody please convince me that neither of these things I've been brooding about will happen:

1. Dead Hodor and Dead Summer will be seen in the Dead Army

2. Cersei will decide she would rather let the White Walkers have the North than deal with the Starks 

I didn't say that BATS21 did. Reread my post.

I said:  "$$$$$ or proof of a private matter best kept secret if one wants to keep their position."

[NeenerNeener]

1 hour ago, Giselle said:

I didn't say that BATS21 did. Reread my post.

Sorry, I did a "Quote" out of the middle of a block of text in your post, and it attributed the quote to you.

Oh, and add "Clergy is personal friend of the family" to reasons why annulments are granted.

Edited August 15, 2017 by NeenerNeener

[Macbeth]

Tyrion needs to stop trying to send people to the wall.  Janos Slynt was useless. 

And Randyll Tarley would have been another Alliser Thorne.  A good battle leader and fighter - but a piss poor leader for what the Night Watch really needs.  It doesn't need another leader who believes that the Wildings are the enemy and won't believe that the dead have risen.

Edd would be executed post haste when Tarley found out he supported Jon Snow in letting the Wildings into the kingdom.  Not that I think Edd is long for this world. Edd has suffered enough without more bs being thrown his way.

The kingdom is much better off with Randyll being dead.

Re The Vale and Glover - I know Jon has little communication skills - but hasn't Daovs sent a raven that stated  "TKIN didn't kneel and he scored a mountain of dragon glass."?  Hello Davos?

Edited August 15, 2017 by Macbeth

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

Cersei will decide she would rather let the White Walkers have the North than deal with the Starks 

Sadly I can totally see her doing this. I can see her send some of her troupes up North, just for show, and when the battle starts, they join the WW in picking off the Northerners and Dany's men. She will stay far south so that she doesn't get killed, then she builds a new wall south of the original and "the North" is no longer part of her Westros. Bitch is crazy and doesn't care about anyone else's survival, not even her precious fuck twin. She will see them all die and rule their corpses before she lifts a finger to help anyone else.

[paigow]

The next move by Tyrion should be to wipe out any resistance at Highgarden; thereby securing the food supply and The Reach before laying siege to KL.

[paigow]

How big is The Golden Company? Are they the Google of Sellswords? The Second Sons are like Bing? There must be a lot of fringe players that Dario can recruit and ship to Westeros?