S07.E05: Eastwatch

[iMonrey]

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They have to ignore that she is, essentially, foreigner. 

Dany is no more a "foreigner" than any of the rest of them. She was born on Dragonstone, which is part of Westeros. Her family ruled Westeros for generations. Just because she was raised on Essos doesn't make her a foreigner. When you get down to it, everyone on Westeros is just as much a foreigner as Dany: the First Men and the Andals were all migrants before they became Westerosi, same as the Valerians. 

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 I'm actually surprised at how quickly he recovered, he doesn't even seem to have any trouble flying, at all.

I guess there's still a chance Qyburn poisoned the harpoons but if Drogon were to eventually die from that wound I think we would have gotten some sort of hint, clue, or foreshadowing of it in this episode. But there was zero follow-up: no scene of the Dothraki helping Dany pull the harpoon from his body, no camera shots of a festering wound - nothing. Zippo. So I think it's over and done with.

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I believe Ned didn't tell Catelyn because he didn't want her to share his burden of deceit/deception.

We don't really know if Ned knows Lyanna and Rhaegar were legally married. There was nothing in Bran's vision/flashback scene to indicate Ned knew Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Only that she'd had his child. So it's quite possible Ned always believed Jon to be Rhaegar's bastard by his sister, which would have given him no claim to the throne.

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First, as to Tarly and his son, they had surrendered. They were in her custody. And she summarily executed them for not recognizing her as their queen.  

The Tarlys had not "surrendered," they were "conquered." There's a difference. And what exactly is Dany supposed to do with them? Throw anyone who refuses to acknowledge her rule in the dungeon? As she pointed out, if the gave everyone that choice most people who take it over death. That dungeon would get pretty full pretty fast. It's not as if she can just say "oh, you won't bend the knee? That's OK then, run along home!"

Personally I blame nobody but the Tarlys for their own deaths. They managed to survive the horrific battle only to voluntarily burn to death for their "pride." Screw that. Bend the damn knee then plot against the usurper in secret like a normal person, idiots. You're not going to do your cause much good when you're dead, but OH, you'll have your pride. Good for you, dead people.

[YaddaYadda]

9 minutes ago, KarenTargaryen said:

Bran would not have been pushed from the window if Jon Arryn was not murdered.  The only reason King Robert and company came to Winterfell was that Jon Arryn was dead and Robert wanted Ned as his Hand.  The Cersei and Jaime had sex and pushed Bran from the window.  If Jon Arryn was still alive, none of them would have been at Winterfell and Bran would not have been pushed from a window.

You're absolutely right. Total brain fart on my part. 

So yeah, 1,000,000 times LF's fault. 

[KarenTargaryen]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

You're absolutely right. Total brain fart on my part. 

So yeah, 1,000,000 times LF's fault. 

is there anything that isn't LF's fault :) hee

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, KarenTargaryen said:

is there anything that isn't LF's fault :) hee

Nope. I don't have a problem laying everything that happened from his duel with Brandon on at his feet.

He also helped beggar the realm.

[benteen]

29 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Dany is no more a "foreigner" than any of the rest of them. She was born on Dragonstone, which is part of Westeros. Her family ruled Westeros for generations. Just because she was raised on Essos doesn't make her a foreigner. When you get down to it, everyone on Westeros is just as much a foreigner as Dany: the First Men and the Andals were all migrants before they became Westerosi, same as the Valerians. 

I guess there's still a chance Qyburn poisoned the harpoons but if Drogon were to eventually die from that wound I think we would have gotten some sort of hint, clue, or foreshadowing of it in this episode. But there was zero follow-up: no scene of the Dothraki helping Dany pull the harpoon from his body, no camera shots of a festering wound - nothing. Zippo. So I think it's over and done with.

We don't really know if Ned knows Lyanna and Rhaegar were legally married. There was nothing in Bran's vision/flashback scene to indicate Ned knew Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Only that she'd had his child. So it's quite possible Ned always believed Jon to be Rhaegar's bastard by his sister, which would have given him no claim to the throne.

The Tarlys had not "surrendered," they were "conquered." There's a difference. And what exactly is Dany supposed to do with them? Throw anyone who refuses to acknowledge her rule in the dungeon? As she pointed out, if the gave everyone that choice most people who take it over death. That dungeon would get pretty full pretty fast. It's not as if she can just say "oh, you won't bend the knee? That's OK then, run along home!"

Personally I blame nobody but the Tarlys for their own deaths. They managed to survive the horrific battle only to voluntarily burn to death for their "pride." Screw that. Bend the damn knee then plot against the usurper in secret like a normal person, idiots. You're not going to do your cause much good when you're dead, but OH, you'll have your pride. Good for you, dead people.

LOL, I agree.  Live to fight another day.  At the very least, if he still insisted on suicide, Randyll should have told Dickon that he had an obligation to his House, his mother and his sister.

[blackwing]

Well, the show sure had me fooled.  The previous episode, we heard more from Dickon Tarly, now played by Tom Hopper from "Black Sails".  At the end of the episode, we see a hard-to-identify man tacking Jaime out of the line of dragon fire.  Then we see a wide-eyed Jaime slowly sinking to the bottom of the river.

I was 100% convinced that this week's episode would open with Jaime being rescued by Dickon Tarly.  100% wrong.  I thought, Randall Tarly is played by James Faulkner, a British character actor who has been on many things but who I still remember as Simon Kerslake in the TV adaptation of Jeffrey Archer's "First Among Equals".  He's kind of famous, no way would they kill him so quickly and easily after his role just started getting bigger.  Dickon Tarly is played by Tom Hopper.  No way would they kill him so quickly, he's barely even been on.  He's going to become Jaime's right-hand man, right?    FWWWWWOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM aiiiiiiyyyyyyeeeeeeaaaarrrghh.

I was wrong.

Apart from this scene, and the return of Gendry, I found this episode to be rather boring.  I guess they are saving the money-intensive battle scenes for every other episode this season?

[tennisgurl]

I blame pretty much everything that's happened since Jon Arryn was poisoned on Little Finger and his bullshit. If he hadn't done that, than Jon Arryn would have stayed the hand, the Lannister's never would have come to Kings Landing, Jaimie wouldn't have shoved Jaimie out of the window, Cat never would have captured Tyrion, war wouldn't have been declared, and while things still might have gone bad, with Joffrey still in line for the throne, at least it wouldn't have been AS bad. And the worst part is, he did it all for his own personal gain, and because he's STILL bitter that his childhood crush didn't like him like that. Build a bridge and get over it dude!

Of course, there is lots of blame to throw around. Jaimie shouldn't have pushed Bran out the window, Cat shouldn't have captured Tyrion without knowing the whole story, Rhaegar shouldn't have run off with Lyanna, the list goes on.

So many characters are crossing into each others stories now, that I honestly have to keep reminding myself about everyone's relationships to everyone else. "Oh yeah, Tyrion's fire killed Davoses son" "Oh yeah, the Brotherhood sold Gendry to Melisandre", "Oh yeah, Jorahs dad was the commander of the Nights Watch, who fought Wildlings for years". I guess I used my Monty Python "Lets not get hung up on who killed who!" quote last week too soon!

[screamin]

31 minutes ago, KarenTargaryen said:

Bran would not have been pushed from the window if Jon Arryn was not murdered.  The only reason King Robert and company came to Winterfell was that Jon Arryn was dead and Robert wanted Ned as his Hand.  The Cersei and Jaime had sex and pushed Bran from the window.  If Jon Arryn was still alive, none of them would have been at Winterfell and Bran would not have been pushed from a window.

Eh, just because LF was the one who ended up murdering Jon Arryn and Cersei and Jaime thanked their lucky stars that he died so fortuitously, doesn't mean Jaime and Cersei wouldn't have tried to kill Jon Arryn themselves if they realized he was on to them...though admittedly, they wouldn't have done it as smoothly and might have been caught at it. If Jon Arryn hadn't been murdered by LF or Jaime and Cersei AND managed to get his case for Cersei's infidelity ready and presented it to King Bob, there would probably be war between Bob and Tywin regardless of whether Bob managed to kill Cersei and Jaime and the kids or whether they managed to escape. Bob would call his bannermen and Ned would still have to go to KL.

Not to mention that Varys and Illyrio were eventually planning to bring war and chaos to Westeros to prepare the way for fAegon to take over...they were only dismayed by Arryn's death because it wrecked their own timetable; Faegon wasn't quite ready for his close-up. Short version - sooner or later war would've happened anyway.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Well, the show sure had me fooled.  The previous episode, we heard more from Dickon Tarly, now played by Tom Hopper from "Black Sails".  At the end of the episode, we see a hard-to-identify man tacking Jaime out of the line of dragon fire.  Then we see a wide-eyed Jaime slowly sinking to the bottom of the river.

I was 100% convinced that this week's episode would open with Jaime being rescued by Dickon Tarly.  100% wrong.  I thought, Randall Tarly is played by James Faulkner, a British character actor who has been on many things but who I still remember as Simon Kerslake in the TV adaptation of Jeffrey Archer's "First Among Equals".  He's kind of famous, no way would they kill him so quickly and easily after his role just started getting bigger.  Dickon Tarly is played by Tom Hopper.  No way would they kill him so quickly, he's barely even been on.  He's going to become Jaime's right-hand man, right?    FWWWWWOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM aiiiiiiyyyyyyeeeeeeaaaarrrghh.

I was wrong.

Apart from this scene, and the return of Gendry, I found this episode to be rather boring.  I guess they are saving the money-intensive battle scenes for every other episode this season?

I agree that with the buildup and the actors I thought we were heading somewhere with the tale of the Tarlys far different than BBQ by the Blackwater. 

I think it may have fallen victim to the same time conundrum many other parts of the storyline have done, leaving the episode feel rather boring to you; compressed, a bit confusing and unsatisfying in several ways to me.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

Cersei is the monster and lunatic.

I think the intense negativity has to be viewed in a present day political situation. If a maniac from another country has his finger on a weapon of mass destruction, do we respond in a similar way and annihilate and stifle opposition? Or do we try to find alternate solutions? Dany used those dragons like nuclear weapons.

This can even be viewed in an historical perspective with regard to how self perceived "conquerers" chose to fight wars based on their own views and need for power.

Well, please read my link above. I will insert it here again if you are unable to locate it: from BUSINESS INSIDER

ETA:

Jon Snow: "If you use them (dragons) to melt castles and burn cities, you are not different you are just more of the same."

on YouTube

As I've said elsewhere, I am not arguing the behavior and military tactics of Westeros against present day politics and if I were going that route, I wouldn't need to theorize about a foreign maniac when there's a homegrown one with WMDs at the ready available and begging for comparison.

Dany used 1 dragon in response to attacks on her allies.  Did the Lannister army try to negotiate with Highgarden or did they just go in killing in order to loot the place? War sucks, but its been the legacy of both fictional and real worlds since the dawn of time.  When/if Dany points her dragons at castles and civilians in cities, let's chat.  

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Either way, Cersei is still the Worst

That's what it boils down to for me. No matter what anyone does from this point forward, Cersei is still the absolute worst because she would do what they did and more.

I'm also team LF started it all. So he's the second worst. I just find him more fun to hate right now. Cersei now bores me, which is the biggest sin a villain can commit in my mind.

[sumiregusa]

5 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

As I've said elsewhere, I am not arguing the behavior and military tactics of Westeros against present day politics and if I were going that route, I wouldn't need to theorize about a foreign maniac when there's a homegrown one with WMDs at the ready available and begging for comparison.

Dany used 1 dragon in response to attacks on her allies.  Did the Lannister army try to negotiate with Highgarden or did they just go in killing in order to loot the place? War sucks, but its been the legacy of both fictional and real worlds since the dawn of time.  When/if Dany points her dragons at castles and civilians in cities, let's chat.  

Thank you. I'm still trying to figure out how there is so much back and forth talk about this. It seems like a lot of trying to apply modern-day ideologies and mindsets to a medieval fantasy landscape during war time. One of these things is not like the other...

[Francie]

 Dany is no more a "foreigner" than any of the rest of them. She was born on Dragonstone, which is part of Westeros. Her family ruled Westeros for generations. Just because she was raised on Essos doesn't make her a foreigner. When you get down to it, everyone on Westeros is just as much a foreigner as Dany: the First Men and the Andals were all migrants before they became Westerosi, same as the Valerians.  

She was born on Dragonstone -- a home of the Targaryens for years before they conquered Westeros. It wasn't considered part of Westeros until Aegon conquered it. It'd be like being born in Puerto Rico or Guam.  A protectorate or territory but not a full blown state. 

More importantly, she spent what, a few days?, on Dragonstone and has lived in Essos ever since. Hence why Tarly and others consider her a foreigner. When you don't grow up or ever speak a word in a country, it shouldn't be surprising to be considered a foreigner. 

 Bend the damn knee then plot against the usurper in secret like a normal person, idiots.

"Normal people" have no integrity in your mind. Good to know. 

But, also interestingly, you see just how hollow Dany's demand is. If it's just a momentary action, why is she so intent on them bending the knee. Why not conquer, do whatever she was going to do with them should they not have bent the knee, and then go on her way. Why have them bow to her if it's just a ceremonial gesture without any consequence?

Wait, what did she do with them, by the way? She claimed she wasn't going to put them in chains -- so did she send them all home? And if she kept them as prisoners, why the need to burn the more reluctant prisoners alive? 

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Honestly, I would find it unrealistic if Arya and Sansa put aside their issues and just got along. Sure, they'd lost their parents and siblings, but that doesn't make their issues they have with each other go away magically. This doesn't even happen with siblings you are close with who you have deep grained issues with as well. This current issue comes off as true of their relationship. They love and are fond of each other, but that doesn't negate the negative parts of their relationship. Right or wrong, Arya's issue with Sansa isn't petty: she believes that Sansa's action have led to the deaths of two people, which is her friend and their father. I don't think she believes Sansa is evil, but rather, (was) obsessed with material things and marriages and those obsessions influences her decisions. 

We want Arya to calm down and back off of Sansa because all that has happened to her, but do y'all honestly think that Sansa told Arya any of these things??? Most likely, Arya doesn't know and Arya has no reason to assume Sansa experienced great atrocities independent of their shared ones. 

As far as the council scene goes, I can see why Arya felt the way she did. Sansa did her job perfunctory and as a duty because he is family rather than her actually supporting Jon. We give Jon a lot of shit about his decisions and how Sansa is making better decisions in the North and, maybe this is true, but Jon is the only one who understands the seriousness of the situation and knows how to combat it. Jon is a serious person and doesn't take anything lightly and, of anything, I'd expect Sansa to respect that even if she doesn't truly grasp the situation. Jon would never ask his men to go out and do something he wouldn't do himself. Maybe that makes him a terrible leader, BUT considering not many people take his claims about WW serious, in this case, he HAS to go out and risk his life to SAVE Westoros. 

Sansa is correct that she can't just cut off their heads, but Arya is also right in a sense that they cannot just speak about Jon like that. Do you think anyone would have gotten away speaking about Cersei, Robert, Dany, Ned, Joffrey, Tommen, Olenna, etc. like that during a council meeting? Because it wasn't simply about the reservations and grievances, but HOW they were talking about Jon and Sansa's reaction and body language to their complaints. 

Arya: He trusted you to hold it for him.

Sansa: Well, he's not making it easy. The Northern Lords are proud.

As savvy as we claim Sansa is and that she knows how to play the game, calming down Northern Lords shouldn't be an issue for her. This shouldn't be an obstacle, yet it is and for reasons Arya stated: she wants to rule the North, but is trying to push the thought out of her head. I didn't see Sansa as thinking Arya was saying foolish things; Sansa knew that Area pegged her dilemma correctly and how no response for it. Because if she was 100% not interested in ruling the North, either she'd be able to 'control' the bannermen better OR she honestly doesn't know how to run the North as well as she though she would've. Running the North isn't literally about hoarding food and the day to day shit, but politics as well. No their politics doesn't compare to KL or other places, but it's still there. And to hold down a position for someone means to run the day to day and back/defend them, regardless if you disagree behind closed doors, if need be. Sansa has graduated from openly question Jon to just remaining silent when she needs to show a more united front with him other than saying he thought it was the best decision. 

 

Sansa needs to take some sass lessons from the Little Bear.  These whining Lords of the North need to be put in their place.  I totally agree with you about that, they have pledged their support to Jon as KitN and need to quit their bitching.  And Sansa needs to shut that down, yesterday. 

In fact, I'd urge Sansa to go so far as to create a temporary small council, and let the whiny Lords petition the small council formally.  That would  shut down much of the griping. 

Sansa is making a huge mistake trying to have her cake and eat it too.  She needs to prove that she IS a leader, and will be a good one in the future, if required.  That means demonstrated loyalty UP, and loyalty down.   Thus far, she's failing, badly.

[TarotQueen]

56 minutes ago, screamin said:

Eh, just because LF was the one who ended up murdering Jon Arryn and Cersei and Jaime thanked their lucky stars that he died so fortuitously, doesn't mean Jaime and Cersei wouldn't have tried to kill Jon Arryn themselves if they realized he was on to them...though admittedly, they wouldn't have done it as smoothly and might have been caught at it. If Jon Arryn hadn't been murdered by LF or Jaime and Cersei AND managed to get his case for Cersei's infidelity ready and presented it to King Bob, there would probably be war between Bob and Tywin regardless of whether Bob managed to kill Cersei and Jaime and the kids or whether they managed to escape. Bob would call his bannermen and Ned would still have to go to KL.

Not to mention that Varys and Illyrio were eventually planning to bring war and chaos to Westeros to prepare the way for fAegon to take over...they were only dismayed by Arryn's death because it wrecked their own timetable; Faegon wasn't quite ready for his close-up. Short version - sooner or later war would've happened anyway.

Is it really a certainty the Cersei's and Jaime's hand are clean in the death of Jon Arryn to begin with?  Just because LF and Lysa were the means has never necessarily absolved them from being the head of the plot imo.  LF held the dagger to Ned's throat too, but he did it on behalf of Cersei/Joffrey.

[screamin]

20 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sansa is making a huge mistake trying to have her cake and eat it too.  She needs to prove that she IS a leader, and will be a good one in the future, if required.  That means demonstrated loyalty UP, and loyalty down.   Thus far, she's failing, badly.

If Jon comes back soon she will have done very well. If his stay outside becomes prolonged, her gladhanding politician's approach may wear thin and she'll have to show some steel...but I can't see that she's gone wrong yet.

Edited August 15, 2017 by screamin

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Said in a mournful, drunken slur. 

 

Did Robert ever say anything that wasn't in a drunken slur? 

There was angry drunken slur.

There was mournful drunken slur.

And there was bawdy and amused drunken slur. 

He was a great character! Horrible man, but great character. 

[benteen]

While I think Sansa was right to remind Arya that you can't just behead everyone who disagrees with you, I think she does have to slap down the Northern Lords harder.  They have proven to be a disloyal and fickle bunch.  The future of the North might be better in the hands of the next generation, in Lyanna Mormont and the young Lord Umber and Lady Karstark.  The older generation isn't worth next to nothing.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

As I've said elsewhere, I am not arguing the behavior and military tactics of Westeros against present day politics and if I were going that route, I wouldn't need to theorize about a foreign maniac when there's a homegrown one with WMDs at the ready available and begging for comparison.

Dany used 1 dragon in response to attacks on her allies.  Did the Lannister army try to negotiate with Highgarden or did they just go in killing in order to loot the place? War sucks, but its been the legacy of both fictional and real worlds since the dawn of time.  When/if Dany points her dragons at castles and civilians in cities, let's chat.  

The problem with arguments comparing dany to other conquerers/rulers is that she's the  one  going  out of her way to tell everybody she's different. If she's using the same tactics that they used, how is she "breaking the wheel? "

The fact that she's not as bad as a known psychopath is a low bar to clear in terms of being  revolutionary. 

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

Is it really a certainty the Cersei's and Jaime's hand are clean in the death of Jon Arryn to begin with?  Just because LF and Lysa were the means has never necessarily absolved them from being the head of the plot imo.  LF held the dagger to Ned's throat too, but he did it on behalf of Cersei/Joffrey.

They had nothing to do with it. But Pycelle essentially sent away maester Colemon and let Jon Arryn die because Pycelle knew Jon Arryn knew about the incest and that Joffrey and his siblings were bastards, and according to him Cersei communicated the message to him with her eyes, so he took it as a message that she wanted Jon Arryn dead. 

LF held the dagger to Ned's throat not on behalf of Joffrey or Cersei, but on behalf of LF. He had decided to remove Ned from the game because he had outlived whatever usefulness he had. Ned was never going to allow Joffrey to stay on the throne. He wanted to bring Stannis in. Stannis would have been the end of LF.

Edited August 15, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Jon comes back soon she will have done very well. If his stay outside becomes prolonged, her gladhanding politician's approach may wear thin and she'll have to show some steel...but I can't see that she's gone wrong yet.

Sansa went wrong the moment she questioned Jon in front of the Lords the very first time, and she hasn't even slightly improved since then.  She's still too stupid to get out of her own way.   This is the North, not King's Landing, where little palace intrigues gain you some coin.  Her behavior in this episode was merely more of the same.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say she's back-sliding in every way.

[MadMouse]

3 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

To me one of the fun things is trying to figure out from the TV show's mess, exactly what's going to happen in the books. 

The Tarlys backing Cersei against Dany never made sense given that they were Targ loyalists.  I think what must have happened was Tarly jumped on Aegon's bandwagon together with Dorne (Arriane) only for them to get blasted by Dany's dragons after they topple Highgarden.  if the Golden Company shows up we might be able to infer that book Cersei is not in KL.  But that Aegon holds KL.  Which makes the attempts at parlay make more sense.

Also Gendry's " I am a Baratheon" is a little odd. But its  quite in character for Edric.

It depends, since other than the throwaway line about marrying a Fossoway has any other Reach house been mentioned on the show? The Tarlys supporting Cersei was just a way to show that the Reach will be fractured in loyalties in the next book. If any powerful Reach lord is going to switch sides to Faegon its the Rowans, Mathis's reaction to the fates of Aegon and Rhaenys during the sack was a hint plus he's leading the force besieging Storm's End where the Black Dragon is headed. I'm not saying Tarly won't but he seems like a red herring to me. The biggest question will be the Hightowers, if Euron tries to sack the city and Aegon would be the one to save them that would be a huge ally from him. Even if Leyton's daughter is married to Mace, his heir is married to a Rowan.

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

It depends, since other than the throwaway line about marrying a Fossoway has any other Reach house been mentioned on the show? The Tarlys supporting Cersei was just a way to show that the Reach will be fractured in loyalties in the next book. If any powerful Reach lord is going to switch sides to Faegon its the Rowans, Mathis's reaction to the fates of Aegon and Rhaenys during the sack was a hint plus he's leading the force besieging Storm's End where the Black Dragon is headed. I'm not saying Tarly won't but he seems like a red herring to me. The biggest question will be the Hightowers, if Euron tries to sack the city and Aegon would be the one to save them that would be a huge ally from him. Even if Leyton's daughter is married to Mace, his heir is married to a Rowan.

This will forever be the best parts of the books for me. Where these Houses will fall when war comes. Leyton is Margaery and Loras's grandfather. She is the queen and imprisoned. I am so looking forward to all of this. Sam in Oldtown is going to be so awesome, I might cry (no, but close).

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I blame pretty much everything that's happened since Jon Arryn was poisoned on Little Finger and his bullshit. If he hadn't done that, than Jon Arryn would have stayed the hand, the Lannister's never would have come to Kings Landing, Jaimie wouldn't have shoved Jaimie out of the window, Cat never would have captured Tyrion, war wouldn't have been declared, and while things still might have gone bad, with Joffrey still in line for the throne, at least it wouldn't have been AS bad. And the worst part is, he did it all for his own personal gain, and because he's STILL bitter that his childhood crush didn't like him like that. Build a bridge and get over it dude!

Of course, there is lots of blame to throw around. Jaimie shouldn't have pushed Bran out the window, Cat shouldn't have captured Tyrion without knowing the whole story, Rhaegar shouldn't have run off with Lyanna, the list goes on.

 

I'm putting  85 percent of the blame on the Starks, it's  their penchant  for doing stupid  shit that causes the Chao that littlefinger revels in.

We're down to arya sansa and Rickon as on screen Starks that didn't  cause catastrophic  events

Edited August 15, 2017 by Oscirus

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sansa went wrong the moment she questioned Jon in front of the Lords the very first time, and she hasn't even slightly improved since then.  She's still too stupid to get out of her own way.   This is the North, not King's Landing, where little palace intrigues gain you some coin.  Her behavior in this episode was merely more of the same.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say she's back-sliding in every way.

If questioning the ruler's decisions in public is being too stupid to get out of your own way, then Tyrion (in this very episode) and Little Lady Mormont (in the last episode, I believe) belong in the same stupid bag. Sansa is not currently participating in palace intrigue, she's trying to soothe the lords into waiting till Jon comes back. I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that it needs to be done (unless you endorse Arya's beheading approach). Disputing whether she's using too much carrot and not enough stick is a question of style until we see the results of success or failure.

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

That's what it boils down to for me. No matter what anyone does from this point forward, Cersei is still the absolute worst because she would do what they did and more.

When she said something like "Maybe we should have an armistice with the Dragon Queen" I got the vibe that her unspoken continuation of that was "so I can figure out the best opportunity to stab her in the back".  Especially considering she followed up with them needing to do what Tywin (Mr. Red Wedding instigator) would do.  I could see Cercei pretending to go along with the idea of fighting ice-zombies only to try to turn her army against Dany's while they're fighting the dead.

[Blonde Gator]

Repeating the same mistakes over and over again is stupid.  Which is what Sansa does, trying the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. 

Tyrion is another matte,r he's trying whatever he can to keep Dany on an even keel and to prevent her going all Mad Queen.  Lyanna Mormont is a ten year old. 

BTW, Arya didn't suggest beheading the recalcitrant Lords, Sansa was the one who brought that up.  But typical Sansa, she had to deflect into something else to avoid admitting that Arya had a very valid point, Sansa is appeasing these Lords without correction, in an attempt to amass her own power base.  Arya caught her dead to rights in her motives.  And I'd kindly ask that you NOT attribute motives to me that I haven't stated.  I'm always happy to explain or defend my own words, any time, but the old "so what you're saying" bit is not going to happen.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I blame pretty much everything that's happened since Jon Arryn was poisoned on Little Finger and his bullshit. If he hadn't done that, than Jon Arryn would have stayed the hand, the Lannister's never would have come to Kings Landing, 

It seems to me that had Jon Arryn not been poisoned, it would simply have delayed what eventually happened anyway. From what I can gather Jon Arryn was pretty old (we only briefly saw his corpse in the pilot); there's no telling how much longer he would have lived but he would not have outlived Robert, and Robert would still have wanted Ned to replace him eventually. I guess maybe by that time Bran would have been beyond the wall-climbing stage and have been out at one of the brothels or something.

[Francie]

24 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

apparently Cersei communicated the message to him with her eyes, so he took it as a message that she wanted Jon Arryn dead. 

Did she blink in morse code or something? 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Jon Snow said it best. I do not have his exact quote but basically he told her she is no better than those she is going after. 

She used those dragons like nuclear weapons: weapons of mass destruction. This is fascinating and explains it well: 

from BUSINESS INSIDER

Is this the same Jon Snow who killed untold numbers of Northerners to win the Battle of the Bastards, and with the support of outsiders such as Wildlings and the Knights of the Vale?

Good to know it's OK for Jon to kill but not for Daenerys

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

It seems to me that had Jon Arryn not been poisoned, it would simply have delayed what eventually happened anyway. From what I can gather Jon Arryn was pretty old (we only briefly saw his corpse in the pilot); there's no telling how much longer he would have lived but he would not have outlived Robert, and Robert would still have wanted Ned to replace him eventually. I guess maybe by that time Bran would have been beyond the wall-climbing stage and have been out at one of the brothels or something.

I am so curious about Jon Arryn.  We had Ned's thoughts about how great a man he was . . .

Which we are left to reconcile with the evidence of the man he in good part raised and served as hand being a complete horror/buffoon as husband, ruler, father, cuckhold, drunkard, spender, etc., etc.  Along with his own marriage to Lysa, in which he was cuckholded and his son was being smothered instead of raised to be a man to one day serve as liege lord. 

Of course there were familiar little fingerprints all over his life story as well.

[Nanrad]

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

If questioning the ruler's decisions in public is being too stupid to get out of your own way, then Tyrion (in this very episode) and Little Lady Mormont (in the last episode, I believe) belong in the same stupid bag. Sansa is not currently participating in palace intrigue, she's trying to soothe the lords into waiting till Jon comes back. I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that it needs to be done (unless you endorse Arya's beheading approach). Disputing whether she's using too much carrot and not enough stick is a question of style until we see the results of success or failure.

Her problem has never been the fact that she questions Jon, but the when and where. Consider the king/queen and the hands relationship as a marriage and the various houses and citizens their children: parents are supposed to show a United front even if they disagree, and then address their faults in an appropriate time and place. 

Although Sansa isn't the hand, this still applies to her. She's a trusted person of the king who either openly defies him or does a half assed job of defending him and his position. Jon isn't the mad king. What he's doing is completely for the people and, no matter how crazy it looks, he's willing to do what it takes to save them. Sansa truly doesn't give jons position the seriousness it doesn't, meanwhile, he has put her in a position to make important decisions considering she has a role of significance while he is gone. 

So for her to half ass her defense of jons position give the northern men that they can talk shit about Jon and, eventually, disregard his power--something Sansa is supposed to maintain while he is away. Going back to the parent comparison: it's like your mom telling you one thing, but the other parent disregarding it or undercutting the importance of the other parent. The rebellious kid or kids are going to take cues from the parents who "supports" their position and continue to defy the other. 

BUT, the one who seems like the bad guy is actually trying to protect everykne even if they don't understand, which is why Sansa needs to be vocal and get them together. Their grievances are petty, but Sansa validates them by not checking their behavior and instead listens to "complaints."

[TarotQueen]

18 minutes ago, Francie said:

Did she blink in morse code or something? 

Yeah she told him where Negan's compound was ... oh wait ....

[YaddaYadda]

12 minutes ago, Francie said:

Did she blink in morse code or something? 

Blinking is the Westerosi version of Morse code, of course. Blinks once, if it's yes, twice if it's now. Short blink-long-blink-short blink for assistance.

Here's the quote: 

"Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew." 

So this is one crime that can't be laid at Cersei's doorstep.

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Her problem has never been the fact that she questions Jon, but the when and where. Consider the king/queen and the hands relationship as a marriage and the various houses and citizens their children: parents are supposed to show a United front even if they disagree, and then address their faults in an appropriate time and place. 

In past threads, I've already gone into  my disagreement with the idea that Sansa should shut up in public if Jon refuses to discuss his decisions with her in private before making them public. Either he should discuss his decisions with her and get her input in private if he wants her public agreement, or he should put up with her voicing her input in public the way the rest of his lords do. Demanding she shut up without discussing his decisions with her before they're publically a done deal deprives her of any input at all - which puts her in an inferior position to any of his lords.

And I think the fact that she publically disagreed with Jon in the past actually INCREASES her credibility with the lords now. She has shown in the past that she's not Jon's mindless little yes-man, so the fact that she refuses to join in the public disagreement with Jon's decision now presents a stronger united front with Jon than if she'd never disagreed with him publically before.

[TaurusRose]

39 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

The problem with arguments comparing dany to other conquerers/rulers is that she's the  one  going  out of her way to tell everybody she's different. If she's using the same tactics that they used, how is she "breaking the wheel? "

The fact that she's not as bad as a known psychopath is a low bar to clear in terms of being  revolutionary. 

Well, Cersei seems to think she's one.  But then she's a psychopath, so what does she know?

Personally, I would have liked it if Dany had joined forces with the KiTN to battle the larger threat to Westeros.  Perhaps that would have proven her goodwill to those fearing her.  Maybe she could have managed a bloodless coup.  But somehow I rather doubt it. That said, I believe Dany will do her best to bring peace and change for the good once the dust settles. Will she succeed?  I don't know, but until she does something truly egregious by Westeros standards, I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.

[MadMouse]

36 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

This will forever be the best parts of the books for me. Where these Houses will fall when war comes. Leyton is Margaery and Loras's grandfather. She is the queen and imprisoned. I am so looking forward to all of this. Sam in Oldtown is going to be so awesome, I might cry (no, but close).

Yep, I love all theories about the plotting going on everywhere in the North, Riverlands, Reach and Vale. If there's been one benefit of the long wait for the books is all these discussions even if 99% of them don't end up happening.  My own is about Oldtown is that Dany will end up saving them, Leyton sent his youngest son Humphrey to Lys to hire mercs and get help from his sister. And who happens to be that sister, old Jorah's ex wife. There's her fleet.

[Shimmergloom]

4 hours ago, RandyRanderson said:

So what does Bran do all day? Why isn't he talking to Sansa and Arya more?  Why aren't they more interesting in what he knows?  

Well considering when he talked to Sansa, he talked about seeing her being raped by Ramsay, I doubt she wants to talk to him.  And Arya's too busy trying to find reasons to hate Sansa to talk to him.  And Bran doesn't seem to care about anything but the White Walkers.  Yes they are important, but whether you die to White Walkers, Cersei or starvation or a civil war started because you didn't tell your two sisters that LF was playing them against each other, you're still dead.

4 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

 

Defeats what narrative ? True Love ?  If youre hoping for a happy ending  then you havent been paying attention. 

Well that is our Narrative.  That Lyanna didn't love Robert and partly because he womanized.  If she left one womanizer for another, it kind or makes her look dumb.

3 hours ago, Nanrad said:

We want Arya to calm down and back off of Sansa because all that has happened to her, but do y'all honestly think that Sansa told Arya any of these things???

She should know some details.  Sansa told her how her and Jon won back winterfell with the help of all those peoples in this episode and Arya didn't act like she didn't understand.  So if she knew that Sansa was there and fighting the Boltons, she should know some of the backstory.  Or next week Arya will accuse Sansa of being a secret Bolton too.

3 hours ago, Nanrad said:

 

Sansa is correct that she can't just cut off their heads, but Arya is also right in a sense that they cannot just speak about Jon like that.

Except they all talked to Jon like that already.  They were all angry that he was heading south.  They were angry that he let the wildlings into the council and south of the wall, most didn't even side with the Starks at all against the Boltons and one of the houses played a part in giving Rickon over to the Boltons to die.  Jon didn't make it easy.  He left Winterfell and left Sansa in charge of a bunch of disloyal houses and Vale Lords.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

There was nothing in Bran's vision/flashback scene to indicate Ned knew Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

There were 3 King's Guard(or 2 on the show).  King's guard shouldn't have been there to guard a kidnapped victim or mistress, when no King's guard were guarding the Queen and only 1 was in KL with the King.  None were apparently even guarding Elia when Aerys had them brought to KL basically as hostages., except Jamie

Ned at that point was an increasingly panicked person, who as time went on kept expecting to run into King's Guard, but never did.  Until he got to Lyanna.

[FnkyChkn34]

43 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I'm putting  85 percent of the blame on the Starks, it's  their penchant  for doing stupid  shit that causes the Chao that littlefinger revels in.

We're down to arya sansa and Rickon as on screen Starks that didn't  cause catastrophic  events

Umm... what did the Starks do?  They didn't poison Jon Arryn.  They didn't push Bran out the window.  They didn't attack Bran with a dagger.  They didn't start Robert's Rebellion.  They didn't kill Robert.  They didn't create Cersei.  So... uh, how did the Starks start anything?  Lyanna and Rhaegar eloped and had a baby?  Ok, but since absolutely no one knew, that wasn't a catalyst for anything.

But if you do want to blame the Starks for something, don't exclude Arya.  She's a homicidal psychopath who has murdered a countless number of people, including the entire Frey family.  

[Shimmergloom]

44 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

BTW, Arya didn't suggest beheading the recalcitrant Lords, Sansa was the one who brought that up. 

Arya is the one who says, "not if they lose their heads first" after Sansa says if they are offended, Jon could lose his army.  It's Arya, not Sansa who brings up cutting off their heads, which causes Sansa to say that might be satisfying, but not the way to do things.  She then talks about working together, which is a Jon thing.  So even when Sansa follows Jon's ideas, she's still the villain.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[FnkyChkn34]

26 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Is this the same Jon Snow who killed untold numbers of Northerners to win the Battle of the Bastards, and with the support of outsiders such as Wildlings and the Knights of the Vale?

Good to know it's OK for Jon to kill but not for Daenerys

I don't think that was Jon's point.  A battle is a battle, and they all know that's just where they are now - they're at war.  But a battle can be won by either side; Jon had just as good of a chance of dying (again) as anyone else did.  They were all foot soldiers or mounted cavalry.  None of them were on flying dragons.  Whomever said it was Dany was about to use the nuclear option made a good analogy.  If Dany just burns down KL with a dragon, it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb on it, or blowing it up with wildfire.  That's not the same as an evenly fought battle.  I'm not sure I'm saying exactly what I want to say, but hopefully people understand my point.

[KarenTargaryen]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Did Robert ever say anything that wasn't in a drunken slur? 

There was angry drunken slur.

There was mournful drunken slur.

And there was bawdy and amused drunken slur. 

He was a great character! Horrible man, but great character. 

get the breast-plate stretcher!

[Shimmergloom]

29 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

So for her to half ass her defense of jons position give the northern men that they can talk shit about Jon and, eventually, disregard his power-

The ones speaking against Jon, were Ser Royce, who owes no loyalty to Jon at all.  And Lord Glover, who already refused to back the Starks against the Boltons.  They already disregard his power.  Currently there is nothing to do, but placate them.  Ser Royce can leave with his 2000 men anytime he wants.  So can Lord Glover and there's nothing they can do about it.

[Tikichick]

11 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

There were 3 King's Guard(or 2 on the show).  King's guard shouldn't have been there to guard a kidnapped victim or mistress, when no King's guard were guarding the Queen and only 1 was in KL with the King.  None were apparently even guarding Elia when Aerys had them brought to KL basically as hostages., except Jamie

Ned at that point was an increasingly panicked person, who as time went on kept expecting to run into King's Guard, but never did.  Until he got to Lyanna.

Which raises an interesting question, as a fellow kingsguard what did one Jamie Lannister know about the assignments, whereabouts, duties, etc. of his fellow kingsguard at the time?  Obviously he had other pressing issues on his mind at the time and no doubt appreciated his ability to achieve his Kingslayer status unchallenged by his fellow guards, but has he never considered why he had such an opportunity?  

If details start to emerge and gossip starts to percolate, will we see him thinking back and connecting some dots?

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

BTW, Arya didn't suggest beheading the recalcitrant Lords, Sansa was the one who brought that up.  But typical Sansa, she had to deflect into something else to avoid admitting that Arya had a very valid point, Sansa is appeasing these Lords without correction, in an attempt to amass her own power base.  Arya caught her dead to rights in her motives.  And I'd kindly ask that you NOT attribute motives to me that I haven't stated.  I'm always happy to explain or defend my own words, any time, but the old "so what you're saying" bit is not going to happen.

As Shimmergloom mentioned, Arya did in fact suggest beheading the lords whose armies Jon and the North would lose if Sansa alienated them too much; Sansa merely clarified subsequently that this was not an acceptable approach. Not intending to put words in your mouth on that score.

Edited August 15, 2017 by screamin

[Oscirus]

18 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Umm... what did the Starks do?  They didn't poison Jon Arryn.  They didn't push Bran out the window.  They didn't attack Bran with a dagger.  They didn't start Robert's Rebellion.  They didn't kill Robert.  They didn't create Cersei.  So... uh, how did the Starks start anything?  Lyanna and Rhaegar eloped and had a baby?  Ok, but since absolutely no one knew, that wasn't a catalyst for anything.

But if you do want to blame the Starks for something, don't exclude Arya.  She's a homicidal psychopath who has murdered a countless number of people, including the entire Frey family.  

Lyanna was one half of the selfish team of people that ran away and started the rebellion and Brandon was the idiot who went down to Kings Landing talking about killing the crown prince. So yea, they had a huge part in starting the rebellion.

And roberts blood is definitely on Ned's hands since he's the genius who decided to warn Cersei . 

Arya  might very well be a psychopath but at least she's not causing catastrophes by doing stupid shit.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Oscirus

[Constantinople]

16 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't think that was Jon's point.  A battle is a battle, and they all know that's just where they are now - they're at war.  But a battle can be won by either side; Jon had just as good of a chance of dying (again) as anyone else did.  They were all foot soldiers or mounted cavalry.  None of them were on flying dragons.  Whomever said it was Dany was about to use the nuclear option made a good analogy.  If Dany just burns down KL with a dragon, it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb on it, or blowing it up with wildfire.  That's not the same as an evenly fought battle.  I'm not sure I'm saying exactly what I want to say, but hopefully people understand my point.

It's hard to follow your statement since you switched from discussing using dragons in battle to using them to burn down a city (which Daenerys never suggested, she merely suggested torching the Red Keep)

Moreover, comparing dragons to nuclear weapons is not a good analogy since there's no nuclear fallout from the dragons.

[TaurusRose]

19 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Well considering when he talked to Sansa, he talked about seeing her being raped by Ramsay, I doubt she wants to talk to him.  And Arya's too busy trying to find reasons to hate Sansa to talk to him.  And Bran doesn't seem to care about anything but the White Walkers.  Yes they are important, but whether you die to White Walkers, Cersei or starvation or a civil war started because you didn't tell your two sisters that LF was playing them against each other, you're still dead.

Well that is our Narrative.  That Lyanna didn't love Robert and partly because he womanized.  If she left one womanizer for another, it kind or makes her look dumb.

She should know some details.  Sansa told her how her and Jon won back winterfell with the help of all those peoples in this episode and Arya didn't act like she didn't understand.  So if she knew that Sansa was there and fighting the Boltons, she should know some of the backstory.  Or next week Arya will accuse Sansa of being a secret Bolton too.

Except they all talked to Jon like that already.  They were all angry that he was heading south.  They were angry that he let the wildlings into the council and south of the wall, most didn't even side with the Starks at all against the Boltons and one of the houses played a part in giving Rickon over to the Boltons to die.  Jon didn't make it easy.  He left Winterfell and left Sansa in charge of a bunch of disloyal houses and Vale Lords.

There were 3 King's Guard(or 2 on the show).  King's guard shouldn't have been there to guard a kidnapped victim or mistress, when no King's guard were guarding the Queen and only 1 was in KL with the King.  None were apparently even guarding Elia when Aerys had them brought to KL basically as hostages., except Jamie

Ned at that point was an increasingly panicked person, who as time went on kept expecting to run into King's Guard, but never did.  Until he got to Lyanna.

To be fair, the only lords we saw sucking up to Sansa was Royce of the Vale and Glover, both of whom are being played by LF. Royce is going to say whatever LF wants him to say and Glover has proven himself to be a coward, a malcontent and disloyal. Sansa should have checked both of them hard, but especially Glover. Why is he still hanging around WF anyway instead of going to his own keep and getting his people organized?  I don't like him and I hope he crosses Jon and gets his ass handed to him.

Edited August 16, 2017 by taurusrose

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It's hard to follow your statement since you switched from discussing using dragons in battle to using them to burn down a city (which Daenerys never suggested, she merely suggested torching the Red Keep)

Moreover, comparing dragons to nuclear weapons is not a good analogy since there's no nuclear fallout from the dragons.

A dragon is a bomb or a weapon that no one else has.  So yes, it's still a good analogy.  It doesn't matter that there is no "nuclear" fallout; it's still a weapon of mass destruction that only one side can/will use.  

I never switched from using a dragon in battle to using a dragon to burn down a city, either.  Dany wanted to use a dragon to burn down a city; yes, she said the Red Keep, but you don't think the collateral damage wouldn't be most of the rest of the city, too?  Sorry, but it would be.  And your original comment was implying that Jon is no better because he killed Northerners in a battle.  "Good to know that Jon can kill but Dany can't."  Jon had a battle; Dany wanted to demolish a city.  My point is - Jon is not the same as Dany because they were entirely different circumstances.  Dany killed Lannisters in a battle, and Jon didn't chastise her for that.  He (and everyone else) disagreed with torching King's Landing.

[blackwing]

31 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't think that was Jon's point.  A battle is a battle, and they all know that's just where they are now - they're at war.  But a battle can be won by either side; Jon had just as good of a chance of dying (again) as anyone else did.  They were all foot soldiers or mounted cavalry.  None of them were on flying dragons.  Whomever said it was Dany was about to use the nuclear option made a good analogy.  If Dany just burns down KL with a dragon, it would be like dropping a nuclear bomb on it, or blowing it up with wildfire.  That's not the same as an evenly fought battle.  I'm not sure I'm saying exactly what I want to say, but hopefully people understand my point.

I guess I am not understanding the complaint about using dragons that was voiced by Jon and Tyrion on the show and by people here.  Daenerys is trying to win a war.  She has weapons that are vastly superior to anything possessed by the other side.  As horrible as it was to see people being roasted, is she not supposed to use them because it "isn't fair"?  She destroyed a large portion of Cersei's army.  When Cersei runs out of army, Cersei surrenders.  Isn't that the point of war?

I am not understanding why Daenerys doesn't just fly over to the Red Keep, look through a window for Cersei sitting on the throne, and then "dracarys".  Would end the war pretty quickly.   The entire city wouldn't have to suffer and a minimum amount of people would die. Cersei herself had no qualms blowing up a whole bunch of innocent people and recently killed Olenna, Ellaria and Tyene, so why is Daenerys expected to be merciful?  Yes, whoever else is in the throne room would get roasted as well, but in the immortal words of Colonel Mustard, "This is war, Peacock!  Casualties are inevitable.  You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.  Every cook will tell you that!"

Edited August 15, 2017 by blackwing