S03.E07: Dating in the Light

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Jazz goes on a date with a new romantic interest named Shane. Meanwhile, Jack and Jacky host a sleepover for Jazz; and Jazz mulls doing an interview with conservative commentator and transgender bathroom rights critic Tomi Lahren.

[gingerella]

I certainly hope that Jazz gets taken to task, finally, by her grandparents for being such a bitch to them, and publicly no less, during that Q&A session. It's about time...

As for the date, that whole thing smells so fake and set up, and I cant help but wonder why on earth they would do a set up like that given that this is supposed to be the real life travails of a transgender teen. Why would they make up this stuff for the show? It doesn't serve the whole purpose of the show's existence, and would mean that Jazz and her parents - or should I just say Jeanette - are being disingenuous about Jazz's social life and all that that entails. I am baffled...

I also predict that Jazz will sabotage this 'date' and do her usual M.O. and turn the guy off, if indeed it is a real date. They really shouldn't be subjecting her to this on a reality TV show. It's hard enough as a teen without any major life challenges...

[jacksgirl]

Calling it right now. Noelle should go on the Tomi  Lahren show. She is incredibly articulate and has fought battles Jazz has not. I love Noelle! No way in hell Greg and Jeanette should allow Jazz to be on the show. When she's an adult,  yes, at 16, no. Jazz is so lucky that she has loving, supportive grandparents. Yes, Jack was wrong about the pronouns, but Jack and Jacky have proven time and time again their love and support for Jazz. Now being awful, Jazz may need laser hair removal. Her back at the allergist- yikes. She has a great thick head of hair, and I know that can also mean other unwelcome hair growth. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by jacksgirl

[MegD]

Once again, we have Jazz's slightly off description of what her consultations have told her. But of course, she's going to fly across the country to get yet another opinion. It must be nice to have parents that can afford to fly your happy butt all over so you can get the opinion you want.

 

I'm absolutely done with Jazz. She's a rude little bitch to her grandparents. My parents would have kicked my ass for her behavior. Instead, we have her parents giving her a pass and I guarantee as soon as Jeanette was off camera she was agreeing with her when she complains about how her grandfather was wrong. For Jazz's information, the woman's statement was "I was born female, but I really don't feel female. I was wondering about transitioning..." At no point did she indicate that she was male. To me, it sounded like it is something she's still trying to determine. Just as it's rude to call Jazz a "he" since she has decided that she is female, it's rude to presume that the woman in the audience has determined that she is male. But I think Jazz is really quick to jump to moral indignation and a presumption of persecution, even when there is none present.

 

I hate that Tomi Lahren was on this show. I fear that she's going to end up getting the same treatment as anyone who dare oppose Whitney on My Big Fat Fabulous Life has been treated. Whitney's more rabid fans have gone after them. While I may not agree with everything Tomi says, she does have some valid points on different issues. It will be even more interesting given Tomi's post last week concerning transgender individuals in the military.

 

Jazz seems to be missing that part of the first few dates are awkward and weird. You don't immediately spend all your time talking and "getting to know" them on a super deep level. The casual fun stuff is so that you can get comfortable with them to get to know them. Slow your roll and just enjoy yourself instead of trying to force a long term relationship at 16.

[jacksgirl]

I get that Shane was a plant, but he seemed like a sweet kid. He was the reason she had a good time. He praised her flips and drew her into conversation. Oh, and Jeannette,  so awkward on the front porch,  invite the poor kid in for a minute.

[Bastet]

I don't think Jazz (or Noelle) should go on Lahren's show.  It's not aimed at having a genuine discussion in which one actually listens to and thinks about another person's point of view, and she has specifically shown zero desire to do so with respect to the issues facing transgender people.  There are venues in which an honest discussion can be had and thus maybe some minds in a non-traditional audience can be expanded, so I don't see the value in Jazz (or Noelle) engaging in this kind of environment - what value is there to them personally or the community at large, when the only one who benefits is a mean-spirited fame seeker?

This Shane storyline is cute, though - he's a cool guy.  I hope playing this out will help Jazz shake off a bit of her dating jitters when she's ready to do it for real.

[Tenarife60]

I found that interesting what Noelle said that she came out three years ago but has never used the women's restroom because she was too afraid of what might happen.  I wonder if later in her life if she won't decide to de-transition because of the hardships.

[Mommyof2]

I assumed dating in the dark was a real thing and meant to be a lesson for teens to see that someone's personality is more important than their appearance, etc. But it was immediately clear it was a set-up when there were FOUR people there. Jazz and her friend plus two other random girls. 

The really funny thing was Jazz was talking to her friend after and the friend said something about a boy with a scratchy voice and Jazz goes "I had him too!" uh yeah you had him too, every girl met every boy, there were only 4 people there to meet!  LOL

[Ravello]

Jazz lost me with her dismissive and disrespectful treatment of her grandfather.   

[shouldbedancing]

Wow Jazz was super extra annoying with her grandfather tonight. I'm not sure the grandparents really like her sometimes. We still didn't get to hear what Grandpa was trying to say. I suspect he was going to say something about how hormones aren't necessary if you choose not to go that route or something similar. I don't think he was going to say you CAN'T be a WHATEVER without HORMONES AND BOTTOM SURGERY though inside I feel that's how Jazz feels because she's totally obsessed with that stuff. Jazz was so rude when she kept cutting grandpa off and going lalalala and grandpa attempted to call her out, but she gets no reinforcement anywhere else so it wasn't well received. Jazz is a teenager so she's prone to being a bratty know-it-all but they let her take it to the extreme by being scared to challenge her own ideals. Just because she's transgender does not make her an automatic expert. She's still only 16. The parents and grandparents can do research, talk to others and have their own opinions. They can certainly tell Jazz it's rude not to listen to people or be forgiving when people who are actively trying to meet her where she wants make mistakes. I know pronouns are a huge issue and important, but that argument she had with grandpa about them seemed over the top. He's misgendering her? Well like he said, she was thinking about it... was she transitioning, was she not? Did we get pronouns from her? Maybe he should have said they to be on the safe side but he was coming from a genuine place... she didn't have to jump down his throat.

I also felt she was being rude in her spoiled way during the bonus scene with Lynn in the episode before. Lynn was talking about how her parents are having a hard time and her mom still uses male pronouns. Jazz was like OMG doesn't she LOVE YOU?! She doesn't love you! I thought that was extremely rude and insensitive to say to Lynn. She's having a lot of issues with her mom. Lynn's mom is going through things. She's not accepting right now but that doesn't mean she doesn't love Lynn. How hurtful to say... especially when it was not what Lynn was expressing at all. For a transgender person, Jazz's thinking sure is very black and white.

[Caracoa1]

I wonder if Greg or Jeanette ever thought of telling Jazz that if she is truly serious at wanting bottom surgery that she should have to pay for a small portion of what insurance will not cover.  I wish Jazz all the best on her journey but the kid has no idea what other transgender individuals have to deal with.  Most don't have deep pockets like the Jennings family.  

[KBrownie]

38 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

I wonder if Greg or Jeanette ever thought of telling Jazz that if she is truly serious at wanting bottom surgery that she should have to pay for a small portion of what insurance will not cover.  I wish Jazz all the best on her journey but the kid has no idea what other transgender individuals have to deal with.  Most don't have deep pockets like the Jennings family.  

Seriously.

Are they just going to travel around from doctor to doctor until they find a doctor who tells them exactly what they want to hear?  And the fact that there's been absolutely NO discussion of the finances of this, even to say how they are fortunate to be able to afford it or they have insurance, is unrealistic.  Plus, it makes Jazz seem totally spoiled and oblivious to these very real factors in the lives of most transgender people.  She can't be an activist for an entire group if she doesn't get it.  She thinks she's an expert just because she herself is transitioning, but she's very far from it due to the sheltered bubble she lives in.  And Jazz is very oblivious to that bubble.  Being transgender doesn't automatically make you worldly, experienced, and all-knowing.  I think that's part of what her grandfather was trying to get at, but of course, Jazz wasn't hearing it because she DOES think she already knows it all.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Tenarife60 said:

I found that interesting what Noelle said that she came out three years ago but has never used the women's restroom because she was too afraid of what might happen. 

She said she hadn't used a single public restroom since, which made me think she avoided both men's and women's public restrooms, because of fear of what could happen to her in either one.  And I respect her, "I don't think Lahren understands what these 'bathroom bills' mean to actual people, like me," thought as to why Jazz should do the show, I just think that since Lahren has had that explained, multiple times, yet chooses to keep saying/posting ignorant, inflammatory statements in her omnipresent quest for attention, it's a lost cause and it would be better to reward someone else with the ratings.

As for the pronoun discussion between Jazz and her grandpa, Jack's argument was not about waiting to hear what the person chose for themselves - as in, this person was questioning gender identity and considering transitioning, thus he was waiting to hear what someone in the larval stage expressed as their preference before choosing a pronoun - he said the shift from pronoun A to pronoun B happens after transition, and because the audience member physically looked male, that's the pronoun he used.  Implying, particularly in the context of the entire conversation, the physical transition has to be "complete" before the pronoun shift is appropriate, rather than acknowledging transition as a process that takes different trajectories for different people, and thus some universal marker need not be achieved before a different pronoun is appropriate.

Now, obviously, he doesn't strictly adhere to this because he freely acknowledges Jazz as a she, and Jazz was as quick to dig in her heels as he was his; I didn't see the episode in which this happened, just the clips aired in this one, but from that the audience member did ever state an identity.  In that case, they're arguing over a hypothetical. 

But he didn't acquit himself at all well in tonight's stated reasoning for why he was opting for the male pronoun.  At least Jazz was saying that if she identifies as a woman, she should be referred to by female pronouns; she may have been wrong as to how that person identified, but the "if/then" assertion was accurate.  Jack's "if/then," as he expressed it in what we saw, wasn't.

[Tenarife60]

47 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

I wonder if Greg or Jeanette ever thought of telling Jazz that if she is truly serious at wanting bottom surgery that she should have to pay for a small portion of what insurance will not cover.  I wish Jazz all the best on her journey but the kid has no idea what other transgender individuals have to deal with.  Most don't have deep pockets like the Jennings family.  

I think TLC pays for a lot of it because they do on other TLC shows like 'My 600 lb Life.' 

[Ina123]

9 hours ago, MegD said:

I'm absolutely done with Jazz. She's a rude little bitch to her grandparents. My parents would have kicked my ass for her behavior. Instead, we have her parents giving her a pass and I guarantee as soon as Jeanette was off camera she was agreeing with her when she complains about how her grandfather was wrong. For Jazz's information, the woman's statement was "I was born female, but I really don't feel female. I was wondering about transitioning..." At no point did she indicate that she was male. To me, it sounded like it is something she's still trying to determine. Just as it's rude to call Jazz a "he" since she has decided that she is female, it's rude to presume that the woman in the audience has determined that she is male. But I think Jazz is really quick to jump to moral indignation and a presumption of persecution, even when there is none present.

This. She is constantly looking to be offended.

[TomGirl]

8 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

 

I wonder if Greg or Jeanette ever thought of telling Jazz that if she is truly serious at wanting bottom surgery that she should have to pay for a small portion of what insurance will not cover.

 

This seems judgmental to me.  If she had cancer, do you think she should have to pay for part of her treatment?

[MegD]

33 minutes ago, TomGirl said:

9 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

 

I wonder if Greg or Jeanette ever thought of telling Jazz that if she is truly serious at wanting bottom surgery that she should have to pay for a small portion of what insurance will not cover.

 

This seems judgmental to me.  If she had cancer, do you think she should have to pay for part of her treatment?

I think it's fundamentally different than something like cancer. Like it or not, this is something not covered by insurance as it is technically elective cosmetic surgery. She has also had multiple consultations since she's not liked the doctors opinions, being flown all over the country to do this. How often does this happen with a cancer patient? Comparatively, I have a genetic disorder that will result in an eventual liver transplant. My insurance company covered one transplant specialist workup. There are 2 transplant centers within driving distance. My parents and I discussed for a long time about which one I would have the consultation at. Had I not liked the consultation, it was going to be on me to pay for the second consultation since my insurance wouldn't cover it. It's about bearing personal responsibility for things, which is something that Jazz seems to have no concept of. Also, many trans individuals aren't in Jazz's family's financial position. Those individuals have to save up to cover their surgery on their own. I suspect that part of the reason that Noelle is doing the show is that she's got to foot the bill on her own.

[Impatient]

KBrownie said:

"Are they just going to travel around from doctor to doctor until they find a doctor who tells them exactly what they want to hear?  And the fact that there's been absolutely NO discussion of the finances of this, even to say how they are fortunate to be able to afford it or they have insurance, is unrealistic."

 

i am guessing that yes, this is exactly what they will do, since it is also what Jeanette did till she found someone who agreed with her homegrown diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

[ClareWalks]

1 hour ago, MegD said:

It's about bearing personal responsibility for things, which is something that Jazz seems to have no concept of.

Truth. I think Jazz would be a bit less entitled about the whole situation ("it's my decision, it's my body, dad has to deal with whatever I decide") if she had some sort of financial stake in what was happening. Maybe not a huge amount of money, but something, just to teach her she can't snap her fingers and get everything she wants from her parents forever.

[Granny58]

29 minutes ago, Impatient said:

i am guessing that yes, this is exactly what they will do, since it is also what Jeanette did till she found someone who agreed with her homegrown diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

I'm not familiar with the early years.  What's the story here?

[TomGirl]

2 hours ago, Granny58 said:

2 hours ago, Impatient said:

i am guessing that yes, this is exactly what they will do, since it is also what Jeanette did till she found someone who agreed with her homegrown diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

I'm not familiar with the early years.  What's the story here?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bJw3s85EcxM

Interesting interview with Barbara Walters

[Bastet]

The original "I Am Jazz" documentary is available on YouTube, too.

[Bellalisa]

14 hours ago, KBrownie said:

Seriously.

Are they just going to travel around from doctor to doctor until they find a doctor who tells them exactly what they want to hear?  And the fact that there's been absolutely NO discussion of the finances of this, even to say how they are fortunate to be able to afford it or they have insurance, is unrealistic.  Plus, it makes Jazz seem totally spoiled and oblivious to these very real factors in the lives of most transgender people.  She can't be an activist for an entire group if she doesn't get it.  She thinks she's an expert just because she herself is transitioning, but she's very far from it due to the sheltered bubble she lives in.  And Jazz is very oblivious to that bubble.  Being transgender doesn't automatically make you worldly, experienced, and all-knowing.  I think that's part of what her grandfather was trying to get at, but of course, Jazz wasn't hearing it because she DOES think she already knows it all.

What I want to know is why don't they ask the doctor who said she COULD do a penile inversion HOW she is plans to do it? They keep saying having seen 3 doctors they are "even more confused". 2 doctors said she could not have the traditional vaginoplasty and one doctor said she could have it. Obviously they need to speak with the one who said she could have it again and find out what her method is to achieve this-- IN DETAIL. Perhaps this doctor has developed a new technique. What does this technique entail? Has she done it before and what are the drawbacks? Where does she get the extra skin?  She did say the operation had 2 parts so maybe she developed a new way to do this surgery on surpressed youth. But the prospective patient will not be told what it is, just will walk around "confused"? Why wouldn't you ask what the details are and how it is done with the small about of "material" due to suppression. At least don't leave us viewers in the dark. Why are you getting consultations when you are not finding out what the doctor plans to actually do? 

This is baffling to me! 

[Muffyn]

It feels to me like we are very much caught in a reality show Catch-22.  Jazz's ability to doctor shop so extensively is supported by several things that most people don't have.  Her family is financially sound and very supportive of her.  And she has a TV show that wants to make the surgical discussion part of the storyline.  The consultations are filmed.  These are business trips for the Jennings.   

I share many people's frustration that we are given these snippets of the conversations with the doctors.  Clearly the Jennings should ask why each doctor is suggesting what they are suggesting beyond the answer of "there's not much material to work with."  I would hope that before moving forward they would have a many more complete discussions on this.  This is where Jazz having more interactions with support groups and other transgender people who had to think through these types of issues would help.  I find myself hoping it is among all of the things we don't see while we are being fed a limited storyline of "oh noes!  What will she decide?!?!?!"  There are huge parts of her life that are not shown on TV.  I would contend that this is because either those places and/or people do not want to participate in the show or Jazz's parents, in trying to allow her to be both public and protected, has refused to allow some of her day-to-day to be shown.  They do seem to want her to have as normal of a high school experience as they can even though she is transgender and on TV. 

[Bellalisa]

I hope you are right this is all just fake and the doctor shopping is for the story line. Because to travel across country for a consultation and come out of it confused is really stupid. 

[keetmommy]

Watching that Barbara Walters interview, she looked like a fairly sweet girl then, now I find her   bratty, I think she is very disrespectful to her Grandfather/anyone who doesn't think just like she does.  if she really wants to educate she needs to listen to what others are thinking, because acting the way she does isn't going to keep people listening.
And I agree she has it "Easy" because walking down the street one would never guess she was Trans where Noelle is more obviously Trans. I feel much more sympathy for Noelle...they should Dump Jazz and go with Noelle to educate people

[greekmom]

5 hours ago, Bellalisa said:

What I want to know is why don't they ask the doctor who said she COULD do a penile inversion HOW she is plans to do it? They keep saying having seen 3 doctors they are "even more confused". 2 doctors said she could not have the traditional vaginoplasty and one doctor said she could have it. Obviously they need to speak with the one who said she could have it again and find out what her method is to achieve this-- IN DETAIL. Perhaps this doctor has developed a new technique. What does this technique entail? Has she done it before and what are the drawbacks? Where does she get the extra skin?  She did say the operation had 2 parts so maybe she developed a new way to do this surgery on surpressed youth. But the prospective patient will not be told what it is, just will walk around "confused"? Why wouldn't you ask what the details are and how it is done with the small about of "material" due to suppression. At least don't leave us viewers in the dark. Why are you getting consultations when you are not finding out what the doctor plans to actually do? 

This is baffling to me! 

Either it's very fake or the doctor's are embarking on new territory (wasn't Jazz one of the youngest to receive hormone therapy?) and using her as a "lab rat"??  

[Emmeline]

MegD:

Well said.  I wish you all the best!

Edited August 4, 2017 by Emmeline

[Impatient]

Greekmom, Dr. McGinn said Jazz would be the fifth such operation she would do.  So she has had SME experience with this issue but obviously not a lot.  

 

Jazz's entitled attitude is infuriating to me.  The way she was engaging with her grandparents made me want to totally beat the crap out of her!  Her pronoun debate is infuriating.  It is so obvious that she is fighting to be right, ----- not to achieve understanding.  hen I was her age, I would NEVER have had the nerve to be dismissive of my GRANDFATHER!!!!  WTF?!?!?!

The hair on the jazz's back is alarming and makes me wonder if her testosterone really iS suppressed.  

Finally Jazz is just gaining more and more weight!  I am amazed that with Jeanette paying attention to HER weight, they are not addressing this with Jazz.

And Greg is so nuts.  "Jazz has the ability and propensity to push people's buttons......  but she is the only transgender person in the family so we have to take the lead in giving in to her....."words to that effect.  Are these people nuts?  Jazz gets to e a total jerk to people because we don't know what it feels like to be trangender?

 

I just am starting to totally disrespect these people.

[Impatient]

Why didn't Jeanette let this poor guy in the house?  Does Shane have a lazy eye?  Crossed eyes?  

Was Jazz a gymnast?  Why has she moved so far away from gymnastics and fitness?  She can do backflips and aerials?  If I had had those skills as a 16 year old, i would have kept those skills up.  Quite frankly, aside from soccer do these kids do anything extracurricular?  Music lessons? Art school?   Watching this date made me realize, that TRANSGENDERISM defines every single member of this family.  There is no room for any other thing. 

Thank god there was minimal footage of watching Jazz eat.


 

[jacksgirl]

11 hours ago, Impatient said:

 

 

I just am starting to totally disrespect these people.

Me too! Same thing happened to me with Whitney Thore and Ruby. I liked them season 1, then as we got to know them better, my feelings for them have dropped (credit Janelle TM2). Luckily I still have Dr. Now to love.

I think Greg and Jeanette walk on egg shells around Jazz. Wish they didn't,  but they do.

[orangeiguana]

Regarding Jazz's allergic reaction, I find it unsettling that it was elective medical procedures that caused this self-inflicted condition. Aren't the parents at all concerned with Jazz's physical health? In an era when many are devoted to organic lifestyles, I find it weird that this kid is being pumped full of who knows what.

And the statement that nothing has happened in a bathroom tangental to legislating TG access -- absolute poppycock. There are dozens of documented cases, which include some in YMCA locker rooms with children. I admired Noelle's sensitivity to some biological women being uncomfortable with this -- a thoughtful attitude I had not heard before in the TG community. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by orangeiguana

[woodscommaelle]

There was a moment at the nail shop when I saw a glimpse of annoyance from Noelle towards Jazz which I haven't noticed in the past.  She kind of seems like she's had enough of Jazz and I don't totally blame her.  Jazz is always (in my opinion) going to have it much easier (not that her life is easy in any way) than Noelle and I don't know if Jazz realizes that.

As someone else mentioned, Noelle is so articulate. She needs to be an activist or something bc she is such a bright young woman.  Love her!

Edited August 4, 2017 by woodscommaelle

[stolendimes]

20 hours ago, Bellalisa said:

I hope you are right this is all just fake and the doctor shopping is for the story line. Because to travel across country for a consultation and come out of it confused is really stupid. 

I get that for a major surgery one would get a second opinion, and even a third. But in this case, I think all the "doctor shopping" is done for the cameras and is a business deal--the doctors get free advertising by appearing on the show. (That's what happens on Intervention, at least--the patients don't pay for treatment themselves. A & E showcases the treatment centers, providing them with national exposure.)

Side note (and I know it's been mentioned before): What is up with Grandma's eyes? Too much plastic surgery? 

[Impatient]

Has anyone else noticed Jeanette going more and more "hollywood"?  The glasses with the bedazzled frames, the holes in her jeans, the platform shoes.  I mean she has always been out there for a 50 year old woman, but she is pushing the envelope!  Just another symptom of her need for attention?

Someone else commented here on Grandma's crossed eyes.  I am wondering if she suffers from constant double vision?  

She said "I know you are very stubborn, but you're wrong."  I cannot believe she said that to her GRANDFATHER!!!!!  (Oh, and by the way, Jazz has early signs of crossed eyes (strabismus) too.).  She goes on to say "I am kind of annoyed.  I thought it was in the past, ,I didnt want to talk about it."  And she then flails bout focusing on the age of the woman, whether she should be referred to as he or she, etc.  This girl is in for some rude awakenings.  She finally resorts to "you are right Grandpa".  So obviously not meaning it.  Her parents are doing a terrible job of raising a person.  The goal of childrearing is to produce an adult people enjoy being around.  That is so not true of Jazz.  

I kind of want her to go on to Tomi Lahren and get ground to a pulp.  
 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Impatient

[ClareWalks]

This whole Tomi Lahren thing will be very interesting. Now, I am 100% in favor of transgender people using whatever bathroom they feel comfortable in. I think saying trans people can't use the bathroom of their true gender is bigoted and awful. That being said, Tomi was talking more in that clip about rapists (not trans rapists) who will say "oh, I'm a girl," and stroll into a women's bathroom to look for victims unquestioned. The logic there is tremendously flawed, but it is not the same as saying "transgender people are rapists and criminals preying on people in bathrooms." The way to counter Tomi's argument is to point out that rapists are not rule-followers and law-abiders, and therefore the sign on the bathroom door will not keep them out if they want in; and being able to legally say "I'm female, I'm going in the women's room" won't MAKE someone into a rapist. The guys who would rape you in the bathroom will do so whether they can claim to be trans or not. Noelle's point about how the law affects real transgender women and men like herself is a better argument than "oh, Tomi Lahren is just a bigot." She IS clearly a bigot, but Jazz needs to pick apart her actual arguments if she wants credibility.

[Impatient]

I wasn't onboard with Shane being a hired actor, but then when he says "It doesn't matter to me what's between her legs".  Then I knew.  If that was real, honest, true-to-life there is no way a 16 year old boy would say that.  Not if he is straight that is.  

There is also an issue with his being 5'3".  Not sure what that is, but it figures in to this somehow......

[desertrat]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

This whole Tomi Lahren thing will be very interesting. Now, I am 100% in favor of transgender people using whatever bathroom they feel comfortable in. I think saying trans people can't use the bathroom of their true gender is bigoted and awful. That being said, Tomi was talking more in that clip about rapists (not trans rapists) who will say "oh, I'm a girl," and stroll into a women's bathroom to look for victims unquestioned. The logic there is tremendously flawed, but it is not the same as saying "transgender people are rapists and criminals preying on people in bathrooms." The way to counter Tomi's argument is to point out that rapists are not rule-followers and law-abiders, and therefore the sign on the bathroom door will not keep them out if they want in; and being able to legally say "I'm female, I'm going in the women's room" won't MAKE someone into a rapist. The guys who would rape you in the bathroom will do so whether they can claim to be trans or not. Noelle's point about how the law affects real transgender women and men like herself is a better argument than "oh, Tomi Lahren is just a bigot." She IS clearly a bigot, but Jazz needs to pick apart her actual arguments if she wants credibility.

Put rape aside for a minute.  Let me explain my problem with the the TG bathroom laws from my perspective as a woman.  The problem is there is no standard as to who is TG and who is not.  Therefore, any man could claim to be a woman on a particular day and have free and unfettered access to the women's bathroom.  That is a problem for me.  If a woman complains about a man in the women's restroom, the man can say, "Stop, you hater, you trasnsphob meanie.  I am really a woman."  Because there is no standard, we don't know if the man is sincerely TG or is a faker trying to gain access to the forbidden women's restroom.

The problem goes way beyond potential rape.  If a man exposes himself to a woman or child in a park, the man will be arrested, potentially jailed, and labeled a sex offender.  If a man peaks a woman naked or using the bathroom, the man will be arrested, potentially jailed and labeled a sex offender.  If a man walks into a woman's restroom and peaks at women and girls using the restroom and/or exposes himself in the restroom, the man will be arrested, potentially jailed, and labeled a sex offender.  This is as it should be because these sex offender laws protect women and children from sexual predators, who are, in the vast majority of cases, men.  

Now, if the TG bathroom laws prevail, woman and girls are no longer protected from these predators in the restroom.  Woman and girls can be naked in a women's restroom and locker rooms.  In my experience, most women are discrete, but, if a woman is naked for some reason, maybe changing clothes, other woman cannot complain.  There is nothing illegal or wrong about a woman being naked in a women's restroom  However, with the TG bathroom laws a man can be naked in the women's room.  A man can walk into a women's restroom, without question, and expose himself to the women and children using the restroom.  if someone complains or calls the police, the man can simply say, "I feel like a woman in a man's body,  I am TG and have the right to use the woman's restroom."  These women are labeled haters if they object to a man exposing his penis in a restroom.  Who is to say whether this person is really TG or a man committing a sexual offense against woman and girls.

Also, think about the peepers.  Under the TG bathroom laws, the peeking toms can claim to be women for the day and go into women's restrooms to get glimpses of women and girls using undressed and using the toilet.  Sadly, perverts get off on stuff like this, which is why the law prevents men from going into the women's restroom.  If the TG bathroom laws are in effect, these perverts can pretend to be woman and go into the women's restrooms to get their thrills.  If women and girls complain, instead of the man being arrested and labeled a sex offender, the woman and girls will be labeled haters and transphobs.  

And to your point, rape is also a concern.  Rape is a concern because the TG restrooms laws allows potential rapist access to woman in the restroom, a place where women and girls are most vulnerable.  Yes, it is true that a rapist will rape with or without the TG bathroom laws.  But the current laws prohibiting men from entering the women's restroom, protects women by giving them legal recourse against a man who breaches that privacy.  

I feel for Jazz, Noelle and other transgender individuals.  They don't really have a home, not in the men's room, not in the women's room.  But the answer to their dilemma is not to allow any man who claims to be a woman, without any standard whatsoever, unfettered access to women's restrooms.   Unfortunately, there are many, many more sexual predators in our communities than transgender individuals, so, I think any restroom policy must focus first and foremost on protecting women and children from these predators.      

[ClareWalks]

@desertrat you make a lot of very valid points! I think a big part of the solution will be offering more single-stall restrooms (like family bathrooms, which are popping up everywhere) that are non-gendered, because they don't need to be. That would be a good option not just for transgender people (if they don't feel safe or welcome in the women's/men's rooms), but for anyone, especially women and children, who might prefer a safer space.

[Cotypubby]

9 minutes ago, desertrat said:

Now, if the TG bathroom laws prevail, woman and girls are no longer protected from these predators in the restroom.  Woman and girls can be naked in a women's restroom and locker rooms.  In my experience, most women are discrete, but, if a woman is naked for some reason, maybe changing clothes, other woman cannot complain.  There is nothing illegal or wrong about a woman being naked in a women's restroom  However, with the TG bathroom laws a man can be naked in the women's room.  A man can walk into a women's restroom, without question, and expose himself to the women and children using the restroom.  if someone complains or calls the police, the man can simply say, "I feel like a woman in a man's body,  I am TG and have the right to use the woman's restroom."  These women are labeled haters if they object to a man exposing his penis in a restroom.  Who is to say whether this person is really TG or a man committing a sexual offense against woman and girls.

Also, think about the peepers.  Under the TG bathroom laws, the peeking toms can claim to be women for the day and go into women's restrooms to get glimpses of women and girls using undressed and using the toilet.  Sadly, perverts get off on stuff like this, which is why the law prevents men from going into the women's restroom.  If the TG bathroom laws are in effect, these perverts can pretend to be woman and go into the women's restrooms to get their thrills.  If women and girls complain, instead of the man being arrested and labeled a sex offender, the woman and girls will be labeled haters and transphobs.  

 

OK I don't know what kinds of bathrooms you've been going to, but women's rooms have stalls, not urinals. I have never ever in my entire life seen another woman's genitals in a public restroom, nor have I shown mine. That whole argument is simple fear-mongering and is not based on reality. If a man flashes a woman in the bathroom, you can absolutely call the police and there is no fake TG defense because there is no reason for his penis to be out in the first place. You're completely wrong that someone could use that as an excuse and get away with it. Sexual assault is still against the law. If another woman came up to you in the bathroom and tried to assault you, do you think there is nothing that can be done because women are allowed in there? Come on.

[Kelly]

2 hours ago, Impatient said:

Has anyone else noticed Jeanette going more and more "hollywood"?  The glasses with the bedazzled frames, the holes in her jeans, the platform shoes.  I mean she has always been out there for a 50 year old woman, but she is pushing the envelope! 

I definitely have...while I was watching the most recent episide I kept thinking that she needed a makeUNDER.  Dont get me wrong, I like some sparkle myself, but shes got too much going on.  

[MegD]

1 hour ago, Cotypubby said:

1 hour ago, desertrat said:

Now, if the TG bathroom laws prevail, woman and girls are no longer protected from these predators in the restroom.  Woman and girls can be naked in a women's restroom and locker rooms.  In my experience, most women are discrete, but, if a woman is naked for some reason, maybe changing clothes, other woman cannot complain.  There is nothing illegal or wrong about a woman being naked in a women's restroom  However, with the TG bathroom laws a man can be naked in the women's room.  A man can walk into a women's restroom, without question, and expose himself to the women and children using the restroom.  if someone complains or calls the police, the man can simply say, "I feel like a woman in a man's body,  I am TG and have the right to use the woman's restroom."  These women are labeled haters if they object to a man exposing his penis in a restroom.  Who is to say whether this person is really TG or a man committing a sexual offense against woman and girls.

Also, think about the peepers.  Under the TG bathroom laws, the peeking toms can claim to be women for the day and go into women's restrooms to get glimpses of women and girls using undressed and using the toilet.  Sadly, perverts get off on stuff like this, which is why the law prevents men from going into the women's restroom.  If the TG bathroom laws are in effect, these perverts can pretend to be woman and go into the women's restrooms to get their thrills.  If women and girls complain, instead of the man being arrested and labeled a sex offender, the woman and girls will be labeled haters and transphobs.  

 

OK I don't know what kinds of bathrooms you've been going to, but women's rooms have stalls, not urinals. I have never ever in my entire life seen another woman's genitals in a public restroom, nor have I shown mine. That whole argument is simple fear-mongering and is not based on reality. If a man flashes a woman in the bathroom, you can absolutely call the police and there is no fake TG defense because there is no reason for his penis to be out in the first place. You're completely wrong that someone could use that as an excuse and get away with it. Sexual assault is still against the law. If another woman came up to you in the bathroom and tried to assault you, do you think there is nothing that can be done because women are allowed in there? Come on.

It depends where you are. I know my gym locker room/bathroom has 4 stalls yes for the toilets, but unless you want to occupy either a stall or a shower, you end up changing kind of out there. And since the gym can get busy, sometimes you can't change in a stall or shower because there's already a pee line or you are like me and drop things like a champion (fish your sports bra out of a toilet once and you'll know what I mean). Women also go into the restroom to breastfeed, which isn't always done in a stall. I've also had the eyeball through the door crack situation and the bust through the door while I'm on the can situation. Sometimes, the stalls are not super well maintained. At least once a week at my county courthouse, the stall door opens itself. Fantastic maintenance. Further, if you've ever had an accident and had to wash something in the sink, either for kids or for yourself, you very well may be not fully dressed (or your small child may not be fully dressed) while you do that. Hell, it was my first experience with menstruation and I was wearing white shorts. It is also a problem with our aging population. It we take my grandmother out, for example, we're changing her diaper in public. This is a two person operation and yes, her genitals are exposed for a certain part of that. The same is sometimes true with someone with a disability. Finally, sometimes you have little kids that make a break for it skin to the wind. In a lot of cases, fathers aren't the ones taking their kids to the restrooms, moms are. So that is more likely in a women's room.

And if you have no standards as to who is transgender and who is not, then there will be an element of criminals who use the cover of transgenderism to suit their purposes. This is not to say they are actually transgender, but are using a convenient means to an end. Even a definition of "you must use the restroom of the gender your appear to be" would be a step forward. If you are MTF and are only dressing as a female, haven't begun hormone treatment or had any surgery, you would be fine. No one is going to say a word to you. Just like they really don't now a lot of the time. I highly doubt that were Noelle or Lynn or Mya were to use a female restroom in my small Southern town, anyone would say anything because they do appear to be female in their dress and mannerism. However, it would give some of the criminal element who may use Transgenderism as a cover pause or a further step to carry out their perversion. I don't think you would have a lot of perverts (flashers, peepers, rapists, etc.) making the commitment of dressing as a woman to get their jollies. It's harder to prove that a female is a peeping tom (tammy?) even with the same behavior. It does demonstrate that single stall bathrooms are very important in future design and the development of definitions of when a person is male or female. The concern is not that a transgender person is a pervert, but that a pervert would use the void and uncertainty created with some of the bathroom bill legislation to nefarious purposes.

And like @desertrat stated, there are a lot more sexual deviants and sickos out there than there are transgender individuals in most communities.

[Christi]

what I find most interesting about the parents is that they look like brother and sister...

hook nose, no upper lip and huge bottom lip...how do they kiss?? lol they are both so odd looking to me

[Granny58]

2 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

OK I don't know what kinds of bathrooms you've been going to, but women's rooms have stalls, not urinals. I have never ever in my entire life seen another woman's genitals in a public restroom, nor have I shown mine. That whole argument is simple fear-mongering and is not based on reality. If a man flashes a woman in the bathroom, you can absolutely call the police and there is no fake TG defense because there is no reason for his penis to be out in the first place. You're completely wrong that someone could use that as an excuse and get away with it. Sexual assault is still against the law. If another woman came up to you in the bathroom and tried to assault you, do you think there is nothing that can be done because women are allowed in there? Come on.

I've been to plenty of women's restrooms - with stalls - and the gaps between doors and the partitions are basically a suggestion.  Very little modesty provided.  A woman is not likely to bother looking, but a man trying to pass as transgender for the purpose of peeking certainly could.  Wouldn't even need his face pressed up against the crack.  

[Impatient]

Bastet said, "As for the pronoun discussion between Jazz and her grandpa, Jack's argument was not about waiting to hear what the person chose for themselves - as in, this person was questioning gender identity and considering transitioning, thus he was waiting to hear what someone in the larval stage expressed as their preference before choosing a pronoun - he said the shift from pronoun A to pronoun B happens after transition, and because the audience member physically looked male, that's the pronoun he used.  Implying, particularly in the context of the entire conversation, the physical transition has to be "complete" before the pronoun shift is appropriate, rather than acknowledging transition as a process that takes different trajectories for different people, and thus some universal marker need not be achieved before a different pronoun is appropriate.

Now, obviously, he doesn't strictly adhere to this because he freely acknowledges Jazz as a she, and Jazz was as quick to dig in her heels as he was his; I didn't see the episode in which this happened, just the clips aired in this one, but from that the audience member did ever state an identity.  In that case, they're arguing over a hypothetical."

The woman in question stood up and said she was born a woman and didn't feel like a woman and was interested in transitioning but was afraid of the male hormones and could transitioning be done without them?  And so Jack, Jazz's grandfather, referred to the person as she, not he, because she identified herself as a woman just considering transitioning.  She never said she was a transgender male.  She just asked the question.  

Jazz however, in true "I am so much hipper than these geezers" teen-aged fashion, insisted the questioner was a "he".  Jack quite understandably, I thought, referred to the questioner as a woman because she herself did.  She presented as a woman, identified herself as a woman, and I think might have been taken aback at being referred to as a man.  So really, Jack acquitted himself quite nicely, I thought.  

My grandfather would have had a fit at the level of disrespect Jazz was showing to him.  

[Impatient]

Ok, well as to the transgender bathroom issue.  Frankly, I have never had a problem with a male looking person in any bathroom.  However, and I know this is shocking, I have been in a public restroom in which a couple were having sex in a stall.  So I do know that some pretty weird things happen in public restrooms.  

Today in Massachusetts, a person was described on NPR as having been arrested for "upskirting" a 9 year old's.  This basically means using a phone to photograph under a girl's skirt.  He did this in Hyannisport, MA.  It has been specifically against the law to "upskirt" in Massachusetts since 2014.  Which astonished me.  I had never heard that word before.   I agree that simply asking a person who they identify as, is a poor way of justifying male use of women's facilities.   Nicole and Jazz said there has never been a single case of a transgender individual abusing the access to a woman's rest room.  That is, in fact, untrue. I won't go into details, but honestly a few google searches can shock and appall.  

So maybe the thing to do is to specify that ladies' rooms be used only by post-operative transgender people or children.  I am not altogether sure this would solve the problem (there are some sick people in the transgender community, just as there are everywhere else).  But it would at least prevent most sexual assault.  And please be clear, I am not saying this is a significant issue -----  the transgender community is estimated (by the Williams Institute at UCLA) to be at most 0.3% of the population,  but it is simply living in denial to contend it never happens.  So open honest discussion that is not overwhelmed by political correctness seems to me the way we should be moving.  And of course, I am Jazz is NOT where we are going to find that.  

I think this gets back to the point I was making earlier in the season in regards to really studying and standardizing gender dysmorphia, i controlled scientific studies.  Without that, the transgender conversations will never be able to withstand real scrutiny or debate. Just my opinion.  

Edited August 5, 2017 by Impatient
qualifying my position

[ClareWalks]

25 minutes ago, Impatient said:

So maybe the thing to do is to specify that ladies' rooms be used only by post-operative transgender people or children.  I am not altogether sure this would solve the problem (there are some sick people in the transgender community, just as there are everywhere else).  But it would at least prevent most sexual assault.

There is also the issue of assault (sexual or physical) of transgender women who are forced to use men's locker rooms and restrooms because they haven't had surgery, either because they don't want it or can't afford it. It is definitely a multifaceted issue, that's for sure. I feel like if we as a nation can create a bathroom solution for wheelchair users (also less than 1% of the population), surely we can figure out a good bathroom idea. I am totally Team Single-Stall. I vastly prefer them, especially when I'm dragging my toddler around shopping.

[Impatient]

Clarewalks, I totally agree with you, but I also believe that, in light of the underskirting issue, stalls might also not be the answer.  Remember the congressman from Oregon who was forced to resign after sexually soliciting in the Minneapolis airport men's room, using tapping on the floor between stalls?  People determined to satisfy sexual fetishes find a way.  

How about the possibility of ladies' rooms either having stalls that are private with doors (as in fancy restaurants) or having unisex bathrooms everywhere, as in hospitals.  This becomes a problem in places like sports arenas and theatres, where there are peak traffic times, but it might just be the civilized way to sidestep all of these problems.   

By the way, I saw a TED talk recently about the problem of public defecation.  37% of the world's population still defecates in public.  In China this problem is so severe that people openly defecate ON SUBWAYS during commutes.  In India this accounts for why so many Indian children under the age of 5 die of amoebic disentery, in EVERY LEVEL OF THE SOCIAL STRATUM.  And it is also why rape is such an issue in India.  Easy access to vulnerable women allows easy rape.  There is a book on this issue that everyone should read (i.e., Maximum City, by an author named Mehta).  So access is a legitimate concern.  But so are the innocents simply trying to form their lives to be satisfying and happy and constructive.  It IS a problem with many layers.  

And by the way the unisex bathrooms would certainly be welcome, I am sure, to people like Nicole who do not feel at ease in using ANY public restroom.  

[gingerella]

You know, this bathroom issue is more complex that I initially thought it was. I consider myself fairly open-minded about issues related to sexuality and LGBTQ issues in general. But even someone like me who has been raised with family members who are members of the LGBTQ community and who went to school with and has several friends who identify within that community, I still dont really like going to the bathroom in mixed gender restrooms.  I think, but I cant remember for certain, that the stalls were completely seals as in no peaking between cracks, but still, I felt uncomfortable. I'm not sure why though...maybe it's just habit and if I'd grown up with mixed gender rest rooms I wouldn't have any feelings either way...I just dont know.

[orangeiguana]

I am in the arts and know tons of TG people, including two who did surgery. I'm glad people are finally starting to get why women are so threatened by the bathroom issue. If it's not legislated, people can go into bathrooms and really, no one cares. But if it's law, that's where the creepy straight guys have free rein. Try calling the cops. They really have more pressing cases.

The TG bathroom discussion on this ep was so hackneyed and predictable. "Never happened in a bathroom..." Unfortunately it happens all the time in places TG bathrooms are legal, because creepers take advantage of it. There are quite a few documented cases. Noelle was circumspect on the issue, and I really appreciated that. I know the producers do too, and are quietly showing that.

I was sexually abused by my grandfather from my earliest memory until age 14. My only refuge was...the bathroom. I could lock the door. Now I can't lock the door. I am an extreme-leftie liberal, not at all a conservative. I participated in a panel discussion about the bathroom issue, and frankly was terrified. All of us, who were welcoming to TG people, thought that someone was going to shoot us. Police were called in and removed several violent people. There is some force (powered financially, somehow) that is driving this TG movement. I really have no idea what it is, but the source will emerge eventually. This is a very dark and scary world.

Anyway, Jazz's narrative is disturbing, and this person (I'm not going to be bullied into using the pronouns) has been railroaded into a strange life during the formative years. My heart goes out to Jazz, and hope Jazz has access to whatever will enhance Jazz's adult life.

I do wonder what the production and legal meetings at TLC regarding this show sound like. When this kid is 30, there might be a groundbreaking lawsuit.

Edited August 5, 2017 by orangeiguana