S02.E13: Echo

[izabella]

But that's the thing.  That's not what they want to use her for.  Its the next generation of spycraft.  Elizabeth and Philip have to go through people like an ambassador and Poor Martha to get information.  They would never ever ever pass the background checks themselves.....buuttttt Paige would.  Paige is an American citizen born on American soil who went to American schools.  She is the wet dream for Mother Russia.  She could quite literally be Stan's boss.  Be CIA,   FBI or a future President's press secretary  or hell  a future President.    The Centre doesn't want a spy they want a double agent.

 

Paige may be an American, but if they can't find much info on her parents' background, she probably wouldn't pass a security clearance background check, either. They are extremely thorough when it comes to background checks and family members.  There would be a lot of unanswered questions and red flags in Paige's background.

[Happywatcher]

I got my secret in the late 80s when I went into the military, and it was literally a paper check of  high school and local police/court records.

 

I got my top secret around 1990, and it took about six months waiting list to recheck the police and court records and interview some old neighbors and at least one of my old bosses before the military.

 

Now with TS/SCI they do and did dig more.

 

Now-a-days it is easier to check things like parents due to computer data bases and credit histories. Back then, even if Paige was going for an TS/SCI as a command post operator for the Air Force --easy way back then to get that level clearence, and was half women enlisted back then?

 

I would guess the spy parents had transcripts inserted into the paper files of a college, and they owned their own business with employees, so how much checking could they really do on her parents realistically past that? College for parents? Check. Current neighbors for last 10 years? Check. Neighbors before that for 5 years in apartment? Landlord's records confirm, no current neighbors or managers were there then--check. Birth certificates? Check. Business w/ employees? Check.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Happyshooter

[Boundary]

Anything after 1963 will check out because Philip and Elizabeth were already in the country. Anything before that (parents, schools, neighbours etc.) will not really check out, it'll depend on how good the Center inserted their own details into the records and on how vigorous Paige's parents are actually checked out. Leann and Emmett didn't survive the scrutiny because Gaad had already identified them as spies and therefore Stan's eyes (and his team's) had already been directed at where to look. If Paige is simply being vetted and Philip and Elizabeth themselves aren't under any kind of suspicion, could Paige pass the background check?

[John Potts]

Well I guess we at last learned what really happened with Emmett and Leanne, which I was sure was going to turn out to be Larrick. I guess we did have a few clues that something was up with the son (what with Kate meeting him and how calm he seemed), even if you'd like to know exactly how that went down (if he didn't achieve total surprise, I guess they must have hesitated to attack their son and that hesitation proved fatal). If they do go about recruiting Paige next Season, I could see them pointing out the hypocrisy in US foreign policy ("The same Muslim extremists that they are opposing in Iran they are supporting in Afghanistan*" "They claim to support democratic regimes in Central America - but when a democratically elected socialist regime is overthrown by a fascist one, they do nothing*"). Of course, it would be a delicate balancing act to indoctrinate her without marking her as an extremist as presumably the point is to get her into position somewhere in the Military/Governmental structure. Also, given that she seems to be rebelling against her parents as much as anything, so convincing her to do what they want will be a delicate task.

 

And on the subject of delicate tasks - for any parent that ever thought the "sex talk" was awkward, imagine how awkward the "How to go about seducing your first mark talk" could be!

 

Catherinewriter I wondered too, where the shots had come from.

 

Actually, I think the writers played fair there – we see Larrick putting the gun in his waistband and then getting forced back onto the trunk by Elizabeth’s attack. Sure, it required great flexibility from Philip to get and fire the gun with his hands cuffed, but he was fighting for his life.

 

Really sad to see the back of Nina (and we still have to put up with Martha!). Though Granny is back, so it's not all bad.

 

Shreikingeel Oleg would be a big-time oligarch. He's connected, and he gets how Westerners think.

 

I've come to really like Oleg (and yes, he'd do well in post Communist Russia) and Arkady has a certain ruthless efficiency to him. The only regular character who's gone down in my opinion is Stan, who has been completely duped this season and still seemed almost prepared to betray his country (even if he didn't go through with it).

 

* I'm not saying either of these statements are right, but they could certainly be argued that way

Edited June 1, 2014 by John Potts

[rozen]

My pet conspiracy theory is that Kate killed Jared's parents and he was so deep into ideology and hormones that he claimed he did it to 'protect' her. I found it very strange that someone as good as Larrick would question Kate one time, and then kill her. If she were really a newbie, I think he would have settled in and tried to break her properly. I think she was an experienced professional, who would rather eliminate potential obstacles to the 2nd-generation illegal program rather than risk Jared's parents spiriting him away somewhere.

[sistermagpie]

I think she was an experienced professional, who would rather eliminate potential obstacles to the 2nd-generation illegal program rather than risk Jared's parents spiriting him away somewhere.

 

 

If she wasn't a professional she wouldn't have been working in the job she was doing, so I think we can assume she was somewhat professional. She was just also young, so she was less experienced than someone like Elizabeth. But doesn't this version of events just erase the revelation was saw and replace it with something that's basically the same (Jared's onboard with the program and so crazy he wanted his family dead) but a little more convoluted by putting someone else we didn't know was there on the scene? 

 

Plus, if Kate's the killer she's even more of an idiot because not only has she for some reason decided to massacre a family in such a way to get on the news instead of just making the problematic people disappear (without the daughter), she left behind the one-time book to be found if Philip hadn't taken it and potentially might have left behind the plans they got from Fred--at the least she might not have known what became of them. The Centre controlled Emmett and Leanne. They could have taken them back if they thought for some reason that their inexperienced teenage son was suddenly more valuable than two proven agents. In Jared's version they tried to have it both ways by going behind their backs.

Edited June 3, 2014 by sistermagpie

[Curious5]

It looks like our Paige is in a Swanson frozen dinner commercial? She looks a bit younger but we have no idea when it was taped....

[whiporee]

On a rewatch, i think the kid was so over the top when he found his family that it makes it easier to believe that everyone knew how this was playing out. He just screamed and collapsed -- exactly what you'd do if you were acting. He didn't go in and make sure they were dead -- he collapsed and screamed. Knowing now what we didn't know then, the fact that he was faking it makes his reaction a lot more believable. 

[Orbert]

We watched that scene twice the first time, and my wife and I both thought it was a believeable reaction, and actually a good acting job by the actor, not the character of Jared.  I mean, the kid had gone to the pool for a while, as he'd mentioned wanting to do while they were at the amusement park, and when he came back to their room, there's his whole family, executed.  He wouldn't need to make sure they were dead because they're laying there with bloody holes in them, eyes open, and blank expressions.  We rewatched it because it didn't register at first that Philip was passing the kid in the hall and that's who it was.  We thought the whole family was dead in the room, and weren't sure what was going on.

 

If I was a kid (or a teenager I guess) and came back from a nice relaxing swim to see that when I opened the door, I might respond the same way.  I don't know.

 

We can now watch Jared's over-the-top performance and take it as acting by Jared, not the actor playing Jared, and if that's your point, then I agree.  But I guess what spoils it for me is knowing now that the actor wasn't told the whole story at the time and it was meant to be Jared's true reaction to finding his family like that.

[lucindabelle]

ITA Orbert. it's a fake-out and knowing the actor didn't know makes it impossible for the viewers to get a good take on that scene. I find it cheap, and my love for the show took a big big hit. The actor didn't play it as a teen discovering what he knew was there, but as a teen discovering an awful surprise. The only way it works is if we believe Jared is also a young Olivier.

[PinkRibbons]

The way I choose to see it was that killing his family left Jared in a state of shock and/or disconnection from reality. He blocked the true realization of what he had just done from himself long enough to clean up and establish his alibi, and when he went back into the room, he allowed the full horror of what had just happened hit him.

[Loandbehold]

Or, he might have sociopathic tendencies (or actually be a sociopath). So, he was able to kill his family, then go swimming like nothing happened. When he returns to the room, he is able to (over)act with horror at the tableau in front of him. 

[sistermagpie]

I don't think he was supposed to be a sociopath. First because it kind of removes him from Paige by giving him abnormal emotional reactions. Second because it removes the whole emotional tragedy--he felt hurt by his parents lying to him and lashed out emotionally in multiple directions.

[sjohnson]

Jared did it in my opinion is BS. Since this dominated the entire season, the entire season is permeated with it. 

 

I think it's the whole story that matters and exciting hints and teases and sensational scenes along the way don't count for much when the ending contradicts it all. 

Maybe the people who love The Americans are responding to something other than a plot where the characters do things because of who they are, make meaningful choices to achieve what they want. 

[sistermagpie]

Maybe the people who love The Americans are responding to something other than a plot where the characters do things because of who they are, make meaningful choices to achieve what they want.

 

 

I think the Jared storyline was pretty flawed too in terms of the set up, but I don't see how the show in general doesn't have the characters doing just this. My problems with the Jared storyline were more about the logistics and hiding of Jared's emotional state than this.

Edited June 8, 2014 by sistermagpie

[Directorate-J]

I think the reason Elizabeth is so gung-ho about recruiting Paige (at least on first glance) is because she sees she is losing grasp of her daughter. Let's be honest, she does the manual labor of parenting well (cooking, cleaning, laundry), but leaves much to be desired in the emotional department. The kids go to Phillip for that. Spycraft is the only thing Elizabeth is good at. She's too busy seeing recruitment as a mother-daughter bonding opportunity to realize how screwed up it is. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Directorate-J

[spottedreptile]

 

Others have said that she's all about Mother Russia, a fanatic, but I don't think so, not in this case at least.

Isn't is said that fanatics are the most vulnerable, because they are always harbouring a secret doubt? I can see Elizabeth with her true beliefs, being tested again and again, until one day she cracks. And then the Americans turn her ;)

 

P.S. That line was from Tinker Tailor. My favourite spy film.

Edited June 10, 2014 by spottedreptile

[ShellSeeker]

I don't think he was supposed to be a sociopath. First because it kind of removes him from Paige by giving him abnormal emotional reactions. Second because it removes the whole emotional tragedy--he felt hurt by his parents lying to him and lashed out emotionally in multiple directions.

 

The only thing that made sense to me was that he was a sociopath, which explained how he could murder his whole family, and then pretend to be horrified and traumatized when he found them. And as far as the emotional tragedy goes -- I think he told himself that he was angry at his parents, and that's how he justified his behavior. A normal teenager would react to anger at their parents with screaming, yelling, being melodramatic, sneaking out, maybe starting to use alcohol or drugs -- kind of like how Paige acted all season. Sure, she was "rebelling" by wanting to go to church, but the underlying dynamic is the same: she's doing something her parents disapprove of, they try to intervene and control her, she rebels and lashes out. 

 

A sociopathic teenager reacts to anger at his parents by killing them, and then pretending to be the victim. I thought his nonchalant, wooden responses to Elizabeth's questioning later also indicated this. Yeah, he's a sociopath, but he's also a teenager without too much practice in manipulating people and getting them to believe him. So when he found his parents' bodies, he completely over-acted, and then didn't act enough during his conversations with Elizabeth.

 

I know many people thought the finale and the storyline of Jared killing Emmett and Leanne was weak, but I liked it -- and kudos to everyone here that called Jared as the killer. 

[Inquisitionist]

Also

so, why would Arkady taunt Stan by warning him not to profess “I love you” so much to Nina? Didn’t that needlessly betray that Nina was talking to them?

 

Seriously! That line alone makes me ready to jump on the "Arkady is STILL running game" bandwagon.

 

I love the ambiguity in this and how open to different interpretations and future possibilities it leaves us for next year.  Arkady probably knew all along that the odds of turning Stan were extremely dim, and was really setting him up (or doing so as back-up) to think that Nina would be completely out of the picture after being sent back to Russia.  But I doubt Nina will be executed -- she still has a lot of value to Mother Russia.

 

The actor didn't play it as a teen discovering what he knew was there, but as a teen discovering an awful surprise. The only way it works is if we believe Jared is also a young Olivier.

 

I have no problem with this.  The show-runners wanted a particular reaction from Jared and thought the young actor playing him would do a better job without knowing everything his character had done. 

 

Having watched S1 recently on amazon, I literally raced through S2 the past few days while it is still available On Demand through Comcast.  I will definitely rewatch both seasons at a more leisurely pace before S3 starts.  The differences between S1 and S2 remind me a little of Justified.  That series' first season was quite good, but rather episodic.  The second season had a long arc that worked in part because of relationships that had been set up in the first season; S2 (which featured Margo Martindale) is widely considered to be the show's best.  The Americans also stepped things up on multiple levels in S2, but I'll enjoy rewatching the whole thing.

[lucindabelle]

I understand why they did it, you missed my point I think, which is that the actor reacted from a false set of circumstances, circumstances the character did not have, which was then misleading to the audience,

There's no defensible reason the character Jared wold react like that with nobody watching.

The actor playing him did only because the show runners withheld crucial information so that we were not watching the character Jared at all, really, but Jared as he would have behaved without the knowledge the character would actually have to have had.

Iow, character Jared knows damn well what he did, and his reaction would take that into account.

To play that character without knowing it is like playing Claudius without knowing you killed your brother. Is a stupid cheat and I resent it, despite the "result" the show runners got.

It's like having an actor eat something sweet and say yummy, only to tell us later that the character was eating something covered in salt. It only makes sense if the character too is supposed to be a great actor, and it's a cheat.

For me, the show jumped the shark with that reveal. Not sure I'll be back.

[Inquisitionist]

 

 

we were not watching the character Jared at all, really, but Jared as he would have behaved without the knowledge the character would actually have to have had.

 

I have no problem separating the character from the actor.  We were watching a character who had a particular set of motivations portrayed by an actor who didn't fully understand those motivations because the director thought he'd get a better depiction of the character that way.

There's no defensible reason the character Jared would react like that with nobody watching.

 

He had just passed Philip in the hallway, so he knew there were potential witnesses.  In that case, you put on a good acting job for the benefit of those around you so that you don't blow your cover. Or as you put it:

It only makes sense if the character too is supposed to be a great actor

 

That's what I'm willing to buy, and you are not. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Inquisitionist

[lucindabelle]

Correct. I have taught acting and I object to tricking anyone over the age of three because you don't trust him to portray the role. The actor was showing us a response not based in the character because he didn't understand the character, because the writers didn't trust him with the information they insist hey knew all along.

It's the essence of false.

I see no reason why this random teen should be in addition to a swimmer, apparently as talented as Olivier. I do understand the reasoning whine it but I think it stinks. It feels like retrofittingl they not only tricked the actor, they tricked the audience, and I very much object to th at, as a viewer. I don't want to watch and discuss a show where the deck is that stacked and as I said, this may well be the deal breaker for me.

[sistermagpie]

I don't understand why they lied to the actor, in fact, except that it seems like they didn't want to tell anybody where they were going that early. In their minds, as they've said, They thought it was okay because we didn't see Jared actually see his parents in the room. So we're to assume he went in, gave himself a moment to take it in allegedly, and then screamed to draw attention and establish himself as the traumatized kid. I guess they figured a kid would be able to scream and be upset under those circumstances (he probably was actually upset, to be fair). So to them they thought telling the actor "scream as if you just found your family dead in the room" was the same as telling him what really happened....but I don't think that's fair to the actor. If I were him I wouldn't be able to think that there wouldn't have been more depth to the scene if I'd known what to play. If that were the case the scene would be a lot more interesting on rewatch. Now that I know the actor playing Jared was playing the wrong thing I know there's nothing more to get from his performance. Had he known I'd more enjoy watching it as Jared faking (and it would probably play better as that than it does now) and unwittingly manipulating Philip even more than he knows by doing it.

 

That said, they've made mistakes before that they thought better of, so I don't see it as so much of a general problem--usually they're more committed to the realism of the moment. I'm thinking, for instance, of the scene where the KGB guys pulled the Clark wig right off Philip's head easy as pie and them watching it later and seeing the same problems the audience saw.

[Inquisitionist]

Now that I know the actor playing Jared was playing the wrong thing I know there's nothing more to get from his performance.

 

And perhaps this is why show-runners should stop telling us so much about the filming process. The amount of angst this bit of information has generated doesn't seem worth it.  :P

[sistermagpie]

And perhaps this is why show-runners should stop telling us so much about the filming process. The amount of angst this bit of information has generated doesn't seem worth it.  :P

 

 

Exactly! Not the first time knowing some backstage thing has just interfered with what I'm seeing onscreen. I often don't want to know!

 

Wasn't there a similar thing that happened in Breaking Bad--even more egregious? There was a certain thing that Walt did that the actor didn't know he'd done while doing an important scene where he's claiming that he didn't and BC was understandably annoyed at that. (Not saying the actual thing to avoid BB spoilers!)

Edited June 19, 2014 by sistermagpie

[lucindabelle]

Good point. If I didn't know for a fact that the actor didn't know I might question it but wouldn't be so irritated by the false direction.

[SoWindsor]

This has the potential to be as well thought out, start to finish, as Breaking Bad.

.

Oh nothing could ever top or even get close to the genius that was breaking bad. A once in a lifetime (or many) thing. Just today out of nowhere I got sad that it's over.

But this is The Americans thread and I did enjoy this episode for what it means for season 3. I've always liked Paige and it will be interesting where it leads. Reminds me of Alias and how Sidney was recruited.

I hope Nina is still on the show. She's more the star than Keri Russell who I just can never get into. I really wanted Oleg and Nina to kiss one last time....but here's hoping they reunite.

I think Stan looking at the Ronald Reagan photo that Gaad was hanging is what changed his mind. Nice touch.

I'm thinking of Russia in a new light after the shooting down of the Malaysian flight.

Here's what I see happening to Nina:

She is returned to Moscow to face trial. It's revealed that Oleg is an only child, his parents are elderly and his mother is dying. Nina discovers she's pregnant and Oleg gets his father to pull the necessary strings to get Nina released. She lives with Oleg's parents until the baby (a son) is born. Oleg's father and Oleg, of course, are well aware that Stan might be the biological father but they never voice this suspicion with the mother. The mother dies having seen her grandson being born, getting to hold him in her arms and finally seeing her son married and "settled." Oleg and Nina return to DC. Stan is informed about the baby by Arkady and is given the blood tests that prove the baby is his. They use this to try to turn him for good.

First instinct is I hope not. Anything baby related and who's the daddy feels like corny soap operas. the Americans... Be better than a soap opera, please.

But upon further thought it does seem interesting. I especially like the idea that this hypothetical baby being Oleg's.

For me, bs on jared, , even with his being a teenage boy who's just had sex for the first time. His blown backwards by shock at the bodies was too moving and he didn't know anyone was there... So now in addition to being a killer he's a great actor? If they did plan this from the beginning they didn't think it through, for me me the show jumped the shark right there.

Maybe since he walked past Phillip he choose to act shocked since there was a witness. Could have been orders from the center and Kate.

Edited July 19, 2014 by SoWindsor

[sistermagpie]

Maybe since he walked past Phillip he choose to act shocked since there was a witness. Could have been orders from the center and Kate.

 

 

I don't think there's any mystery about why he chose to act shocked. He didn't have orders since it had just happened spontaneously. He was just covering him the murder he'd just committed--a person with no ties to the KGB might have done the same. He'd already set up his alibi by going to the pool.

[lucindabelle]

My problem was not his acting shocked. My problem wss his acting so unbelievably convincingly shocked. Us a teenage boy not Olivier. He acted it JUST as though he didn't know.... Because that's the intention the actor was playing. It was a trick on the audience, disrespectful to the actor, and in my opinion a stupid plot twist to boot.

[Dev F]

My problem was not h acting shocked. My problem wss his acting so unbelievably convincingly shocked. Us a teenage boy not Olivier.

Though, to be fair, so was the actor portraying him. And unlike an actor, Jared didn't have to invent emotion out of whole cloth. Nothing in his portrayal suggests that he's a psychopath, so he should be traumatized and despondent over murdering his entire family and destroying his whole life.

Really, it's the moments when he's pretending NOT to be traumatized when he's doing the most acting. And I think that's why the scene works for me on rewatch -- because there's something just SLIGHTLY overplayed about his carefree smile as he passes Philip in the hall.

[kikaha]

 

As for Stan, what a disgusting douche-bag. I despise him - not for choosing his country at the end but for the way he conducted himself all along with regards to Nina and the way he fucked her and fucked her over.

 

And yet Nina was trying to do the exact same thing to him.  Her betrayal was worse IMO: she actively lied and misrepresented herself to him.  He at least was upfront and honest with her, and truly did have her best interests at heart.  

 

Zero question in my mind that Stan loved Nina.  She used that love, and nearly manipulated him into betraying his country.  Thankfully he did not follow through.  Remember that Nina got herself into this mess first by breaking the laws of her own country; second by spying on her country, i.e. committing treason; third by seducing Stan, who was easy prey for her.  (The KGB missed Nina's true calling.  Instead of an in-house clerk, She would have made a great honey-pot Mara Hari type.) 

 

Nina was also willing to defect from Mother Russia and live happily ever after with Stan (which would have required breaking up his marriage and family). 

 

Stan and his wife were both bored/unhappy with each other.  They had fallen into a rut, that satisfied neither.  She was just as willing to cheat on him, as he was on her.   

[sistermagpie]

And yet Nina was trying to do the exact same thing to him.  Her betrayal was worse IMO: she actively lied and misrepresented herself to him.  He at least was upfront and honest with her, and truly did have her best interests at heart.

 

 

Stan blackmailed her into betraying her country and then wanted sex too. So I don't think she ever owed it to him to not lie or misrepresent herself to him. He may have had her best interests at heart sometimes in a vague way, but he still just forced her into a dangerous, potentially fatal situation.

 

It's just an interesting relationship because it's so subjective which person's behavior comes across as more or less wrong or which character got themselves into their own mess. Nina did by trying to get blackmarket goods back to Russia, Stan did by wanting a love affair.

[kikaha]

sistermagpie, here's another way to look at Nina: she was a criminal, who got caught, and was given an option to stay out of Soviet prison.  She accepted.  While Stan eventually made it clear he wanted her, Nina is the one who made the first move.  Stan would still be sitting in that car if she hadn't leaned over and kissed him. 

 

From that point on, Stan was upfront about their relationship.  He loved her, and desperately wanted to keep her safe.  She was not upfront with him, though.  In fact she tried to fuck him over, even as she claimed to love him. 

 

The more I think about her as a honey-pot, the more it works.  She is incredibly beautiful... charming... has no qualms about using her sexuality (she was giving blowjobs first season to her boss, the old guy she mined for information, and then later to Stan, even as she was setting him up)... does a good job framing others (her old boss)... and nearly turned a loyal American into one of the country's worst traitors. 

[Inquisitionist]

does a good job framing others (her old boss)...

 

Do you the older first season guy?  I wasn't sure that Nina even knew he was being framed at the time.  That all seemed to be on Stan, who instructed Nina to steal a document, any document, without telling her why.

[sistermagpie]

sistermagpie, here's another way to look at Nina: she was a criminal, who got caught, and was given an option to stay out of Soviet prison.  She accepted.  While Stan eventually made it clear he wanted her, Nina is the one who made the first move.  Stan would still be sitting in that car if she hadn't leaned over and kissed him.

 

 

But Stan was also the person in the relationship who had the responsibility to not have an affair and he knew that. The fact that she made a move on him is kind of irrelevant to all that. So just as she was a spy who accepted his deal of staying out of Soviet prison or being executed by spying, he made the choice to completely compromise himself and his whole operation by getting into a sexual relationship with the woman he was forcing to work with through that kind of pressure. He knew why she was working for him and the terms of her deal.

 

From that point on, Stan was upfront about their relationship.  He loved her, and desperately wanted to keep her safe.  She was not upfront with him, though.  In fact she tried to fuck him over, even as she claimed to love him.

 

 

I guess for me his being upfront about their relationship doesn't meant much because that's the appeal for him. Like his position is that he's looking for a romance that feels real to him, and to him Nina is someone who came into his life under difficult circumstances but now he's saving her by hopefully sometime in the future getting her to a safe place in America away from those Russians. The part where he's not being upfront is with his own wife.

 

Where as from her pov she did something wrong, which gave the Americans a chance to use it against her. She agreed to spy for them which is not only dangerous if the Russians find out but also makes her do something she doesn't want to do, which is betray her country. So she's looking for a way to get right with the Russians again, but she has to keep both them and the Americans happy and having Stan personally in her corner is a thing she can have. If he's longing to make this into a tragic love affair, that's her opening. One of Stan's blindspots, I think, is that like many Americans he can't quite wrap his mind around somebody not seeing being American as a good deal. It honestly doesn't seem like he's spent much time at all thinking that it pains Nina to betray her country. 

 

And then, of course, the Russians made her their own deal where she could avoid being jailed and/or executed if she turned Stan so she tried to do that using any means necessary. In that case she didn't get forced to make the deal because she got caught after making the choice to do something illegal, but because she made the choice to throw themselves on their mercy because she didn't want to be a traitor. So in that way she's got something in common with Stan in that there was a point where she made a decision based on the desire to not betray her country.

[kikaha]

Stan was stupid to get involved with Nina.  But he was a lonely man who fell in love with her.  That's where the terms of their deal got hazy.  He argued for her with his boss.  He dreamed of living happily ever after with her.   

 

No question Stan lied to and cheated on his wife.  But that is not how he treated Nina, which I thought was the question here.  Note that Stan's wife also was deeply unhappy in their marriage, even before she suspected his unfaithfulness.  She quickly cheated on him and then left him.

 

I don't think Nina had much of a problem betraying her country.  IIRC she was willing to chuck it all, and live with Stan in the US.  This changed only after she came to believe Stan killed her friend, not out of any deep-rooted shame for her treason. 

 

Nina is a hustler, who sent an innocent man to his likely death, for a crime she committed.  She used sex as a weapon against people who cared for her deeply or even loved her.  She is beautiful, smart, devious, charming, courageous -- and totally untrustworthy.  Hope we see her next season (my guess is that Oleg pulls some strings to save her).   

[Inquisitionist]

Taking the Nina discussion to her character thread.

[sistermagpie]

Also going to the Nina thread...

[SlackerInc]

My problem was not his acting shocked. My problem wss his acting so unbelievably convincingly shocked. Us a teenage boy not Olivier. He acted it JUST as though he didn't know.... Because that's the intention the actor was playing. It was a trick on the audience, disrespectful to the actor, and in my opinion a stupid plot twist to boot.

This. I can't think of another example of a show this good that so abruptly and utterly jumped the shark. Although the similarly dishonest and implausible twist on BB involving the berries was close.

And I did like the rest of the Americans season finale, so I'm hoping they will right the ship as BB did.

What on earth was Arkady thinking with that line to Stan about not saying "I love you" so much? I can't decide which was more bizarrely ill-advised: that unsolicited advice, or Nina's tone and piercing look at Stan when answering "yes" to the polygraph's query about whether she knew who killed Vlad. Between those two huge red flags, it's amazing that Stan even considered committing such major league treason against his country. (Though Nina is admittedly smokin' hot.)

Edited October 30, 2014 by SlackerInc

[sistermagpie]

In Nina's case, she might actually have strengthened Stan's love for her by admitting she knew who killed Stan (especially since she may have doubted her ability to lie about it). It makes him believe that she loves him while knowing he's flawed, which is a little better than feeling like he has this dark secret that might destroy the whole thing.

 

While I had the same problems with Jared, I wouldn't call it shark-jumping. It wouldn't be the first important thing on the show that I had to handwave in a meta way.

[DrSpaceman]

I didn't have any problem with Jared's acting or reaction to finding his parents. And I was surprised by the revelation he killed his parents, though I couldn't really follow everything he was saying as he was bleeding out so I couldn't exactly follow while he felt the need to kill his parents except it was over the fact he was becoming a second generation spy

I was also surprised Stan didn't turn over Echo.

[sistermagpie]

Not to mention that we're supposed to believe that the last time they tried this, the kid was so unbelievably enthusiastic that he killed his parents because they wouldn't let him be a Soviet spy.

 

To be fair, I don't think they expected us to believe that. It was more that the kid just became unhinged at his parents lying to him and he grabbed onto his Russian girlfriend giving him purpose, so when his parents then said no all his rage came out. He killed not only them but his sister--imo because that way she wouldn't ever have to learn the truth about them like he did. (I know he said he was "protecting his cover" but obviously he was just an insane teenager murdering his parents.)

Elizabeth thinks she's making all this better by telling the kid himself, as if that was the only problem with the whole scenario. In a way it's kind of great because Jared was such a parody of what Elizabeth actually claims to want for her child. A Paige who is so passionate it's more important than her family--this is what Gregory told Philip he and Elizabeth were about back in S1. That they were ready to sacrifice their families.

 

QUOTE

I'm inclined to think that if the writers wanted us to believe that Jared killed his sister to save her from heartbreak, they would have had Jared say that.

 

I don't think they would have. It would be completely out of character. Jared is supposed to be a screwed up kid who's latched onto the idea that he's in an epic romance with Russian Kate and they're going to save the world. He would never say that he was saving his sister that way. People wanting to believe they're part of something special because being part of something special is better than their many other issues is pretty common on this show. It makes perfect sense that a boy who learned his parents had lied to him his whole life and who had just had his identity ripped away would latch onto the alternate story that the USSR manipulated him into accepting--that he was a hero who was going to save the world with the person who *really* loved him--his adult spy girlfriend. It would not be unusual for the show to leave it to the audience to think about what was really going on with Jared underneath the adolescent fantasy.

What they did do was have him clearly resenting his parents and have Elizabeth be conflicted about not showing him the letter that at least would have shown that they wanted to tell him. His parents lies are much more reality-based than Jared actually being a secret agent. His relationship with Kate and Kate's love for him was an illusion. His relationship to his family and their love for him was real. As was his rage and betrayal at their lies.

 

why would he lie and say that he killed her because she would have gone to the police? Saying "I did it for her own good" would have made him sound like less of a jackass then "I killed her to save my own ass."

 

It doesn't make him sound like a jackass at all according to his fantasy of being a secret agent--not to mention, he really was a teenager who didn't want to get in trouble. It basically comes down to whether you think Jared truly was supposed to be truly making an informed commitment to the Soviet Cause and killed his parents in cold blood. Personally, I think the evidence goes completely against that. He was a teenager emotionally manipulated by the KGB and it blew up in their faces.

 

QUOTE

Umbelina--agree with your summaries about how Sexy Spy enticed Jared but what I missed was why Elizabeth didn't seem to consider that Jared was besotted even after she had observed them together? She even said in a what I recall as a questioning tone, to Philip that Sexy Spy had not disguised herself when meeting with Jared.

 

Yeah, I agree with Umbelina. My impression was that Elizabeth *thought* that Kate was meeting with Jared on behalf of the KGB in order get Jared out. She did start to get suspicious when Jared kept asking about Kate, which is why she asked him how many times he met with Kate. That was the key, because Elizabeth assumed that Kate started meeting with Jared after the murders in order to get him out of the country to safety (away from his parents' killer). They only meet without disguise with people who are real insiders. Elizabeth naturally was going to meet Jared in disguise.

Jared then revealed that he and Kate had been meeting since long before his parents' murders, that they were having an "affair" and he was an agent too who was protecting his cover etc. So then they realized that the threat was coming from inside the house, as it were. There was no outside force killing the Connors, just a kid who'd been emotionally manipulated eight ways from Sunday and didn't realize he was being honeytrapped and killed his family.

[Umbelina]

Umbelina--agree with your summaries about how Sexy Spy enticed Jared but what I missed was why Elizabeth didn't seem to consider that Jared was besotted even after she had observed them together? She even said in a what I recall as a questioning tone, to Philip that Sexy Spy had not disguised herself when meeting with Jared.

 

    That was very hard for me to follow--what Jared thought vs. what Philip and Elizabeth thought they were up against with Jared in the long death scene. For me, it wasn't just the difficulty of Jared's throttled speech but who E & P thought they were dealing with at that juncture?

I'm not quite sure what you mean, and I'm left more with impressions of that scene (although on 3rd watch I figured out what he was saying.)

I think Sexy Spy didn't disguise herself because Jared wasn't going to be an agent she was running (in other words, just used, expendable, like Annaliese or the others) she was actually bringing him into the real KGB fold, someday he would run agents of his own.  So why disguise herself?  It would be like the dude Phillip and Elizabeth had dinner with disguising himself from Phillip or Elizabeth.  I'm pretty sure this was going to be a fairly long term relationship, possibly even partners while she trained him, since his parents had refused to do so, and someone had to.

I think Elizabeth may have implied Sexy Spy got a little to into her role with Jared, but it was murky.  Frankly, I do think sex was Jared's driving motivation, along with anger and a horrible feeling of being treated as stupid, and lied to, which I'm sure Sexy Spy fed.  Think about it though.  With mom and dad dead and gone, there was nothing to prevent him from having sex as much as he wanted to.  No making up excuses, or getting home by 11PM.  He's be with his love forever, and in every position possible.  Remember teenage boy sex?

My feeling was that Sexy Spy was kind of living her role, but not in love with that kid.  It's wasn't one of her worst gigs for the KGB though, and it was long term, so why not enjoy what she could of it?

I didn't understand Elizabeth's reaction to the "no disguise" either, so maybe I am missing something.

 

(moved from Baggage thread)

 

One more from that thread.

Yeah, I think Sistermagpie's post pretty much nails the Jared fiasco.  Well done.

The other thing I would add, which was part of the KGB manipulation is this:

Sexy spy treats horny teenager like an admirable adult who not only can handle things, is smart, is hot, and has made sexy spy fall head over heels for him because she KNOWS he is a MAN not a child, unlike horrible, lying, coddling mom and dad who refuse to respect him, and have lied to him for his entire life.  Now he can be free of those liars and begin his epic romance, and totally cool spy job.  In reality, he was just a kid who loved the idea of being thought of as a man, was completely besotted and thrilled about the sex he was now having, and hurt to the core by his parents lies.

So, the KGB, who as I said once before, really have no clue what an American kid is like, chalk the whole problem up to "we should have involved the parents, so the kids don't feel resentment like Jared did."  We've seen before on this show that the 'feet on the ground' spies like Phillip are only marginally listened to, the plans come from big wigs far away, and will happen, because they are THE PLANS.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Umbelina

[ToxicUnicorn]

Wow.  Very twisty and action packed.  I expected the story with Jared and Larrick to become a cliffhanger.  But zip!  It's over!

 

The only good thing about the neck-wound exposition scene (which was handled rather clunkily) was Phillip's ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIED FACE throughout/ Man, MR is just an amazing actor.

I think Matthew Rhys did his best work of these first two seasons in this episode.  Both in Jared's dying scene and when Elizabeth was considering to turn Paige at the end.  I love watching Phillip.

 

Everything has been covered upthread, so I will say that I agree with:

 

Stan was in love with Nina.  Good catch to the poster who noticed the change of heart after the Reagan poster.  I didn't put that together and loved the surprise that Stan didn't go through with the treason.

 

I agree that Nina is far more interesting than Elizabeth as a character.  And I'm one of the few who likes the Martha storyline.  (Phillip fascinated me, in every guise, so I enjoy watching him as Clark.)  Only please, no pregnancy scandas for Martha.  I agree that would be too soap-y.

 

For some reason, I don't feel the same way about a possible paternity mystery for Nina.

 

I wasn't sure if Nina had feelings for Oleg.  I didn't think it started out that way, but it seemed to change by this episode.

 

I also don't seem to like Paige as much as many here.  However, I like the point of conflict between Phillip and Elizabeth.  I never saw the Center's policy coming.

 

However, I've been convinced from the beginning that the Center planted that girl on the bus to keep an eye on Paige.  I think she's the daughter of the Pastor, so I think the odds are good that he is aware of the KGB's interest in the Jennings.  I like the fact that they established firmly through Claudia's declaration that she didn't know about the second generation program, that sometimes the right hand of the Russians does not know what the left is doing.

 

IThat hotel in upstate New York gave me flashbacks, right down to the plaid and board games.  Love the attention to detail.  Elizabeth's ironed Peter Pan collared shirt looked so appropriate, as well.

 

Stan has been a weak character, but I really like the actor who portrays him.

[sistermagpie]

However, I've been convinced from the beginning that the Center planted that girl on the bus to keep an eye on Paige.  I think she's the daughter of the Pastor, so I think the odds are good that he is aware of the KGB's interest in the Jennings. 

 

 

Kelly isn't the daughter of the pastor. She's just a girl in the youth group who told Paige about it. She presumably continued to be in the group (although maybe she dropped out or lost interest for all we saw) but Paige was more interested in Pastor Tim and his (American, liberal) politics than Kelly was. The Pastor and the church are the alternative that Elizabeth and Philip are horrified at Paige choosing. If he's just another sneaky Russian that all disappears.

Edited March 17, 2015 by sistermagpie

[ToxicUnicorn]

Kelly isn't the daughter of the pastor... <snipped for space>

Ok, I think Kelly is KGB associated somehow.  It makes a LOT more sense if the pastor is unaware.  Thanks for setting me straight!

I didn't have any problem with Jared's acting or reaction to finding his parents. And I was surprised by the revelation he killed his parents, though I couldn't really follow everything he was saying as he was bleeding out so I couldn't exactly follow while he felt the need to kill his parents except it was over the fact he was becoming a second generation spy.

I didn't have a problem with Jared's reaction after his swim, either.  If I have to do any handwaving, I'd lean on the idea that he was pretty melodramatic when he was dying, too.  Maybe that was his way.

 

When was it established that he was furious about being lied to by his parents?  I mean, maybe he was when he first found out, but then he was indoctrinated thoroughly by Kate, so I presume he eventually accepted, understood, and sympathized with their dedication to the cause.  Otherwise, why would he choose the same cause (it is not like only Russians have vaginas.  He was an American kid, he could have looked somewhere else for that).

 

I thought he said that it was his parents who were furious at him for wanting to be a second generation spy.  I immediately thought (and still do) that Jared's parents were angry enough to threaten to go against Kate and the Center, and even to expose everyone by urning themselves in, if necessary, to get him away from the Center and into American protection.  Being a stupid teenager, he either lashed out (or tried to stop them from doing anything) by shooting his dad.  Then, being an extremely stupid teenager, he ended up shooting everyone else to leave no witnesses.  Then, not being able to take any of that back, he rationalized it all afterwards with Kate in terms of doing whatever a super spy would do, which is why it was so important to him for Elizabeth to tell Kate that he saved Elizabeth and Phillip in the end.

 

What I am trying to say is I don't think he shot everyone out of anger or sociopathy.  And I think his lack of affect afterwards could easily be attributed to depression or PTSD or both.

[sistermagpie]

Ok, I think Kelly is KGB associated somehow.  It makes a LOT more sense if the pastor is unaware.  Thanks for setting me straight!

 

 

I don't understand--She's a teenager on the bus who told Paige about her youth group, and Paige is now in that youth group. Why would it make more sense if this teenager was secretly a KGB agent? 

[Loandbehold]

 

Ok, I think Kelly is KGB associated somehow.  It makes a LOT more sense if the pastor is unaware.  Thanks for setting me straight!

 

    

I don't understand--She's a teenager on the bus who told Paige about her youth group, and Paige is now in that youth group. Why would it make more sense if this teenager was secretly a KGB agent?

When we first saw her, I also thought she was a KGB agent assigned to follow Paige, who they knew was going to visit the sick "relative" Elizabeth stayed with (at least I think that was the cover story while Liz was recovering from the gunshot wound). Befriending Paige would be a start to recruiting her for the cause. I don't think that's the case now since we haven't seen her in a long time and Gabriel is actively trying to get Philip and Elizabeth to recruit Paige.

[Chaos Theory]

I think the Jared thing is exactly what it appears to be.  The center went to Emmett and Leanne wanting them to recruit their son and they said no.  So they sent Kate seduced him and whispered sweet nothings into a lonely boys ears.  We have seen what Clark had been able to get Martha to do for him.  What do you think a beautiful sexy woman could get a teenage boy to do?  We have been watching an entire season of push/pull with Paige and her parents.  The question is add seduction to the mix and then tell her that her parents are lying liars who lie and what do you think Paige would have been capable of?  Its an interesting question.  

And considering the fact that Paige has been on a quest to find herself all season and in a direction that Elizabeth is vehemently opposed to would recruiting her to the KGB be such a bad thing or would the thing that destroyed her completely?     

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎5‎.‎2014 at 6:21 AM, soapfaninnc said:

Stan sucks - not for not betraying his country but for blackmailing Nina into spying for him, screwing her, promising her he'd keep her safe and then leaving her hanging. 

Stan did what spies do: blackmailing and making promises one knows one can't keep.  Only, Stan was a fool enough to fall for Nina.   

I think that if it hasn't been so big than Echo, Stan had done it in order to save Nina. Even now he almost did.

On ‎11‎.‎6‎.‎2014 at 2:56 AM, spottedreptile said:

Isn't is said that fanatics are the most vulnerable, because they are always harbouring a secret doubt? I can see Elizabeth with her true beliefs, being tested again and again, until one day she cracks. And then the Americans turn her ;)

Maybe, but remember that in the end Stan couldn't betray his country. Russia is much more vulnerable. I think rather that if Elizabeth had to chose between betraying her country or saving her children, she would kill herself.

On ‎27‎.‎7‎.‎2014 at 10:14 AM, kikaha said:

 

And yet Nina was trying to do the exact same thing to him.  Her betrayal was worse IMO: she actively lied and misrepresented herself to him.  He at least was upfront and honest with her, and truly did have her best interests at heart.  

 

Zero question in my mind that Stan loved Nina.  She used that love, and nearly manipulated him into betraying his country.  Thankfully he did not follow through.  Remember that Nina got herself into this mess first by breaking the laws of her own country; second by spying on her country, i.e. committing treason; third by seducing Stan, who was easy prey for her.  (The KGB missed Nina's true calling.  Instead of an in-house clerk, She would have made a great honey-pot Mara Hari type.) 

 

Nina was also willing to defect from Mother Russia and live happily ever after with Stan (which would have required breaking up his marriage and family). 

 

 

On ‎27‎.‎7‎.‎2014 at 5:49 PM, sistermagpie said:

 

Stan blackmailed her into betraying her country and then wanted sex too. So I don't think she ever owed it to him to not lie or misrepresent herself to him. He may have had her best interests at heart sometimes in a vague way, but he still just forced her into a dangerous, potentially fatal situation.

 

It's just an interesting relationship because it's so subjective which person's behavior comes across as more or less wrong or which character got themselves into their own mess. Nina did by trying to get blackmarket goods back to Russia, Stan did by wanting a love affair.

I agree more Sistermagpie.

Stan began their relation by blackmailing Nina to betray her country - which could be punished with death. After that, Nina had no duty whatsoever to be "honest" with Stan. In her situation Nina had to live by her wits and sexual charisma.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Roseanna