S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[cambridgeguy]

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Are people in Westeros and Dany familiar with the WW and the Night King? Is that why Jon expects them to already know about these things? No idea.

I think Jon believes there's absolutely no reason to come up with such a ludicrous lie, so it has to be true.  Jon tried to make this point in the throne room but he didn't really press it.

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No I mean that it likely restores Jaime's faith in his brother.  Cersei/Tyrion ever having a relationship flew out the window a long time ago. I feel like a renewed relationship with Tyrion offers him other options.

Jaime never believed Tyrion killed Joffrey.  He's pissed about him killing Tywin although it's never been clear if he saw Shae's body in Tywin's bed.  Regardless, I don't think they're due for a pleasant reunion, especially since Tyrion's supporting someone who will almost certainly execute Cersei if given the chance.

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Especially since Sam shows up at Oldtown and is smarter than all these Maesters, but it's ok.  Cause he's not Sansa.

But Sam is a wizard!

(Disclaimer: This is just a joke)

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

 That being said I'd argue that he doesn't even love Cersei anymore. He's desperately trying to find that girl he once loved. Unfortunately for him, this season is proving that she's gone.

The girl Jaime once loved demanded Arya's hand be cut off during sex and Jaime agreed to do it, and even seemed to get a twisted charge out of the fact that he would do something that wrong for love of her. Cersei hasn't changed all that much from the girl he once loved. Sadly, despite some previous apparent progress, neither has Jaime.

[Paradigm14]

On 7/30/2017 at 10:47 PM, Raachel2008 said:

Many people think Jamie loves Brienne, I've always thought that what he saw in Brienne was the man he could have been had his life been very differently. For me it has always been clear that Cersei is the love of his life, has always been. If anyone has any doubts about that, just rewacth their scene in bed, the way he looks at her after everything she has done. Nikolaj Coster Waldau did an awesome job too, though I don't feel sorry for Jamie at all.

I think Jamie is obsessed with Cersei but in love with Brienne. Obsession is a lot more dramatic and exciting, so that's why dysfunctional people stay at that longer.

[Maximum Taco]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

No I mean that it likely restores Jaime's faith in his brother.  Cersei/Tyrion ever having a relationship flew out the window a long time ago. I feel like a renewed relationship with Tyrion offers him other options.

I don't think so. You might be guilty of meshing the show and the books in this conclusion.

Remember in the books, Jaime doesn't really care for Joffrey (or Myrcella or Tommen) as a father, in fact his inner monologue reveals a detachment from all 3, not even really thinking of them as his children. He also doesn't seem to care all that much when Tywin dies. Book Jaime is concerned primarily with just two things, being with Cersei, and then later on his path of redemption as a Kingsguard. Tyrion does tell Jaime that he killed Joffrey, but he doesn't seem all that devastated by it. Their relationship is strained on Tyrion's side (because of the whole Tysha thing.) Jaime doesn't really hate Tyrion that much.

But in the show, Jaime does care about his children and his father, they have a strained relationship, but he takes the death very hard. Tyrion never admits to killing Joffrey, but obviously he killed Tywin. Show Jaime cares about Cersei, his children, and Tywin, but doesn't give one solitary fuck about his honour, or reputation or duty as a Kingsguard (beyond that also being his duty to Cersei and his children.) And the whole Tysha thing never comes up. Their relationship is strained on Jaime's side, but it's much more because Tyrion killed Tywin. Jaime hates Tyrion, to the point of saying he'll kill him the next time he sees him.

Remember this exchange from Season 5?

Bronn: You set your brother free, didn't you?

Jaime: Varys set him free.

Bronn: Well, if you ever see the wee fucker, give him my regards.

Jaime: He murdered my father. If I ever see him, I'll split him in two. And then I'll give him your regards.

Finding out Olenna killed Joffrey shouldn't do anything to fix Jaime's relationship with Tyrion.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

As Euron told Jaimie: "I think they [the smallfolk] just like heads on spikes."

They wanted some high-born to see brought low and jeer at. Who they were or what they did is irrelevant. 

Not to mention we saw one of the smallfolk get minced by the Frankenmountain simply for expressing contempt for Cersei. And there are Qyburn's little birds. KL knows Big Brother is watching.

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

 

The most baffling moment of this episode for me was the crowd spitting and throwing things at Euron's prisoners. It just seemed far too quick for the townsfolk to be so supportive of Euron's achievements. I'm not even sure if those people would know what the person who killed their Princess looked like or care about it that much. And not sure why they would feel the need to celebrate Euron, who I got the impression was a nobody and didn't become a somebody until AFTER he presented his gifts.

"They just like severed heads women being chained and paraded as prisoners in the streets, really."

~Euron Greyjoy

Edited August 2, 2017 by Francie
Edited to add: Or what dorman just said.

[Francie]

38 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I don't think so. You might be guilty of meshing the show and the books in this conclusion.

Remember in the books, Jaime doesn't really care for Joffrey (or Myrcella or Tommen) as a father, in fact his inner monologue reveals a detachment from all 3, not even really thinking of them as his children. He also doesn't seem to care all that much when Tywin dies. Book Jaime is concerned primarily with just two things, being with Cersei, and then later on his path of redemption as a Kingsguard. Tyrion does tell Jaime that he killed Joffrey, but he doesn't seem all that devastated by it. Their relationship is strained on Tyrion's side (because of the whole Tysha thing.) Jaime doesn't really hate Tyrion that much.

But in the show, Jaime does care about his children and his father, they have a strained relationship, but he takes the death very hard. Tyrion never admits to killing Joffrey, but obviously he killed Tywin. Show Jaime cares about Cersei, his children, and Tywin, but doesn't give one solitary fuck about his honour, or reputation or duty as a Kingsguard (beyond that also being his duty to Cersei and his children.) And the whole Tysha thing never comes up. Their relationship is strained on Jaime's side, but it's much more because Tyrion killed Tywin. Jaime hates Tyrion, to the point of saying he'll kill him the next time he sees him.

Remember this exchange from Season 5?

Bronn: You set your brother free, didn't you?

Jaime: Varys set him free.

Bronn: Well, if you ever see the wee fucker, give him my regards.

Jaime: He murdered my father. If I ever see him, I'll split him in two. And then I'll give him your regards.

Finding out Olenna killed Joffrey shouldn't do anything to fix Jaime's relationship with Tyrion.

I agree with a great deal of what you've said.  But two points I'd make in contrast. 

Book!Jaime does begin to demonstrate care and concern for Tommen. It starts when he leaves his father's body and sits outside with Tommen to calm him. Then, when he is in the Riverlands, he contemplates telling Myrcella and Tommen. And he thinks about his son, "Would he rather have a father or a crown?" So, he does start making the journey to wanting to be a father in both the books and the show.

 

Second, in the show, we have Jaime believing whole-heartedly in Tyrion's innocence when he sets him free.  What we don't know is whether Tyrion turning around and killing their father before he takes flight changed Jaime's mind on that.  We haven't seen Jaime's thoughts on that. We don't know whether he blames Tyrion, Sansa, someone else, or just doesn't know what to believe. We only know that he hasn't been active in searching for the killer of late. In any event, Tyrion's post-freeing actions may caused Jaime to have doubts about Tyrion's innocence after all. And Olenna's confession may allow him to soften again toward his brother. 

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, Francie said:

I agree with a great deal of what you've said.  But two points I'd make in contrast. 

Book!Jaime does begin to demonstrate care and concern for Tommen. It starts when he leaves his father's body and sits outside with Tommen to calm him. Then, when he is in the Riverlands, he contemplates telling Myrcella and Tommen. And he thinks about his son, "Would he rather have a father or a crown?" So, he does start making the journey to wanting to be a father in both the books and the show.

 

Second, in the show, we have Jaime believing whole-heartedly in Tyrion's innocence when he sets him free.  What we don't know is whether Tyrion turning around and killing their father before he takes flight changed Jaime's mind on that.  We haven't seen Jaime's thoughts on that. We don't know whether he blames Tyrion, Sansa, someone else, or just doesn't know what to believe. We only know that he hasn't been active in searching for the killer of late. In any event, Tyrion's post-freeing actions may caused Jaime to have doubts about Tyrion's innocence after all. And Olenna's confession may allow him to soften again toward his brother. 

Fair points.

I'd still doubt it though, unless he's also questioning whether Tyrion killed Tywin, and I don't think anyone is, beyond us (as viewers) knowing that it's true, it would be too much of a coincidence that he was set free and then Tywin and Shae (assuming Jaime found Shae in Tywin's bed) ended up dead.

As evidenced by season 5, he has started to soften towards his children (he wants to personally go rescue Myrcella after all and tell her that he's her father), but when Bronn asks about Tyrion, Jaime doesn't say "He murdered Joffrey" or "He murdered the King" or even "He murdered my nephew" it's "He murdered my father." The show has seemingly pointed to the murder of Tywin to be Jaime's main beef with Tyrion.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[Francie]

40 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Fair points.

I'd still doubt it though, unless he's also questioning whether Tyrion killed Tywin, and I don't think anyone is, beyond us (as viewers) knowing that it's true, it would be too much of a coincidence that he was set free and then Tywin and Shae (assuming Jaime found Shae in Tywin's bed) ended up dead.

As evidenced by season 5, he has started to soften towards his children (he wants to personally go rescue Myrcella after all and tell her that he's her father), but when Bronn asks about Tyrion, Jaime doesn't say "He murdered Joffrey" or "He murdered the King" or even "He murdered my nephew" it's "He murdered my father." The show has seemingly pointed to the murder of Tywin to be Jaime's main beef with Tyrion.

Agreed that his primary focus, especially from what we as the audience has been privy to, is Tyrion's murder of Tywin. But I think that can be in part because Jaime has absolutely no doubts Tyrion killed him.  As to Joffrey, that was a big unknown to him. Until Olenna confessed. 

[TaurusRose]

7 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Especially since Sam shows up at Oldtown and is smarter than all these Maesters, but it's ok.  Cause he's not Sansa.

Good try, BUT Sam has been shown to be pretty inept at most skills valued by banner men who happened to be his father and the men of NW, except book learning.  He loves reading and research.  He damn near had an orgasm when he first lay eyes on the Citadel's library.  They have taken pains to build this facet of Sam's personality for 6 seasons.  So, it's not hard to believe that his success was simply a matter of reading the instructions, then following them.  The same is not true of Sansa.  We've seen her please her septa with exceptional needlework in season 1 and speak to those beneath her with the cold arrogance bordering on contempt that she picked up from her mother. We have not been shown Sansa acquiring any knowledge of armor that she displayed this episode.  I am willing to give her knowledge of how to manage/supervise a keep, as that would fall under the education of a lady in her position, but in areas where she's shown no previous interest or curiosity? No. It wouldn't have been that hard to add a few scenes of Sansa picking Davos's or Brienne's brains for helpful tidbits, and it would have gone a long way in giving the audience proof beyond [insert credible character's name] word for it. 

[Allie56]

I thought of Sam's success mostly being luck, not that he's smarter than the maesters. The Arch-Maester already knew about the greyscale cure - I imagine other maesters also knew - but had forbidden it because it was more likely to spread the infection and kill the patient. Sam tried it anyway and was very lucky. The Arch-Maester said as much. I suppose the "I followed the instructions" could be interpreted as "Sam is the only person smart enough here to follow the damned recipe," but I took it more as him lucking out on his first try without any extensive knowledge to supplement the instructions. 

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

Yeah, Tyco refused drinks b4 and Jamie left his after QOT basically back handed him before dying, he only poisoned one drink.

Tyco would not trust Cersei's offerings.

[FnkyChkn34]

24 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Good try, BUT Sam has been shown to be pretty inept at most skills valued by banner men who happened to be his father and the men of NW, except book learning.  He loves reading and research.  He damn near had an orgasm when he first lay eyes on the Citadel's library.  They have taken pains to build this facet of Sam's personality for 6 seasons.  ...

Exactly.  I also never took anything they said or did as Sam being smarter than any of the Grand Maesters.  Sam is very educated and well-read already, and when it came to Jorah's procedure, he just researched it and then had the balls to try it.  That doesn't mean he's smarter, IMO; it means he's trying hard.  He's been tasked with a mission that - for once - he knows how to do and is excited to do.  Go to the Wall, learn how to fight the enemy to the north with swords and arrows?  Not his thing.  But go to the Citadel and read and learn?  Totally his jam.

[Tikichick]

14 hours ago, doram said:

I think it's more like you're advocating a puritanical view of marriage that does not exist in this world, both within and outside the context of the Targaryen family, as evidenced by that family tree. An aunt/nephew marriage in this story is "typical". Some might not like it, but then it begs the question as @MrsR so eloquently put it, why one is watching this show at all that is rife with far more controversial and disturbing elements. 

No, you didn't. You said "expected" and I replied that it's easy to confuse "logical" as "expected".

Sometimes a logical outcome becomes expected - because the writer lays the foreshadowing too thick, because it's been 20 years since the first book came out and the collective hive mind of the internet message boards have piece the puzzle pieces together ---- but does mean the writer should change his story to make it "unexpected"? That's what I mean by a tweeest for the sake of a twist. Changing one's ending just to defy audience expectation. 

I don't find anything puritanical in not wanting Jon and Dany to wind up as a couple because I consider it the expected outcome for male and female characters of a certain age.  That's not based on any type of moral judgment whatsoever.  I simply don't want that kind of fairytale tied in a bow at the end of this. I want something more suited to this sweeping, detail laden, heartbreaking story.  I understand the Targaryen traditions as outlined in the books, I've actually  read them myself, beginning nearly two decades ago.   Around book two I thought Jon and Danaerys were destined for each other.  As I came to learn more about who each of them is as a person I changed my mind.  (Note, I am NOT talking about their ancestry here.)

The puritanical assumption doesn't spring from my thinking, so you'll have to sort that out for yourself.  The assumption I don't understand Targaryen history and tradition, once again that's on you.  

As far as foreshadowing and "logical" outcomes, is there some sort of guarantee there is no misdirection afoot?  Is that completely and entirely impossible, or must the collective hive mind of the internet message boards be correct?  For that matter, do the collective minds of the internet message boards agree that J+D is endgame?  Weird, I didn't get that memo.  Oh bother, now how will I ever know what to think, for 'tis certain I can't go about doing that for myself, based on my thoughts without the hive to do the heavy lifting for me.

[screamin]

58 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Good try, BUT Sam has been shown to be pretty inept at most skills valued by banner men who happened to be his father and the men of NW, except book learning.  He loves reading and research.  He damn near had an orgasm when he first lay eyes on the Citadel's library.  They have taken pains to build this facet of Sam's personality for 6 seasons.  So, it's not hard to believe that his success was simply a matter of reading the instructions, then following them.  The same is not true of Sansa.  We've seen her please her septa with exceptional needlework in season 1 and speak to those beneath her with the cold arrogance bordering on contempt that she picked up from her mother.

Speaking of her mother, do you think Catelyn would have no idea about armor? If we're saying that Sansa's education all stemmed from Cat -  Cat lived through a war and is aware that a lady's duty is not limited to lounging around embroidering. She's supposed to be able to dress wounds during wartime. She is supposed to administer the functioning of a castle while the lord is away at war, and even to order to slam the gates and hold the fort under a siege. We see that Sansa has absorbed her lessons about castle administration - and even her duty to her neighboring subjects - in her worries over food for the winter. Is it so very farfetched that Catelyn might have reviewed the other auxiliary duties of a lady in wartime? Yes, we know that Sansa wouldn't have been interested, and that the long peaceful summer of her life till then would've made such lessons dreary and seeming impossible to relate to her own life - but she was always a good study at anything that didn't involve arithmetic and always ready to please her mother. Is it so bizarre to imagine that Catelyn DID go over this stuff with her 'just in case' and she dutifully learned it and forgot about it - till now?

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Good try, BUT Sam has been shown to be pretty inept at most skills valued by banner men who happened to be his father and the men of NW, except book learning.  He loves reading and research.  He damn near had an orgasm when he first lay eyes on the Citadel's library.  They have taken pains to build this facet of Sam's personality for 6 seasons.  So, it's not hard to believe that his success was simply a matter of reading the instructions, then following them.  The same is not true of Sansa.  We've seen her please her septa with exceptional needlework in season 1 and speak to those beneath her with the cold arrogance bordering on contempt that she picked up from her mother. We have not been shown Sansa acquiring any knowledge of armor that she displayed this episode.  I am willing to give her knowledge of how to manage/supervise a keep, as that would fall under the education of a lady in her position, but in areas where she's shown no previous interest or curiosity? No. It wouldn't have been that hard to add a few scenes of Sansa picking Davos's or Brienne's brains for helpful tidbits, and it would have gone a long way in giving the audience proof beyond [insert credible character's name] word for it. 

 

14 hours ago, anamika said:

The Week has an article pointing out Sansa's sudden competence in all things when just two episodes back she was complaining that Ned failed to protect her by shielding her from all things. I guess she lied and Ned taught her so much that she actually knows more than the general of the Vale army about the importance of fortifications and more than blacksmiths about how to make armor after all.

It also makes some good points about Jon:

The show seems to be unwilling to let Jon grow as a leader - I guess this is because they need to give characters like Davos something to do, but it's so frustrating to watch when the 17 year old book version is a good diplomat and negotiator and forcefully makes his case to the Wildlings, NW, Stannis, Mountain clans etc about the threat of the Others.

His pitch about the WW continues to be frustratingly thin on details - all he does is tell everyone that WW are coming. Not what they are, how they operate, what he has seen etc. He speaks a few sentences and then mopes. Are people in Westeros and Dany familiar with the WW and the Night King? Is that why Jon expects them to already know about these things? No idea.

http://theweek.com/articles/715640/game-thrones-starks-problem

I think the article judges Sansa's inability to summon the words to accept Brienne into her service in the moment a bit harshly.  Would she have been up to the task without prompting were she sitting safely within the great hall at Winterfell at the time -- instead of being quite literally hunted as prey, having escaped Ramsey's sadistic grip?  It would be a little bit like criticizing the women who escaped from years of captivity in that house if they were suddenly presented a phone in the moments immediately after fleeing the home, uncertain if their captor would return to apprehend them and a bystander wondering why they couldn't remember their mother's telephone number. 

When we met Sansa she was entirely fixated on living a life of excitement in a glittering court, far above those beneath her.  By the time of Joffrey's wedding she had become someone who would risk much to show Tyrion a public kindness at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding.  I think we have some evidence girlfriend's priorities may have shifted a smidge.

[KungFuBunny]

I'm still believe that there are more chess moves by Oleanna to come.

Once she was back in Highgarden and found out that both of her grandchildren were dead, I think she began moving her grains and gold. To where I'm not sure. Oleanna was a smart cookie and she had plays upon plays. She knows the power in in their stash of gold and in the grains. She knows how important both these things are to Cersei and Kings Landing. Maybe all of it was moved to Dragonstone when she went to meet with Danerys?

In terms of the gold owed to the Iron Bank by Cersei, isn't she responsible for getting the gold physically to the Iron Bank in Braavos?

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

I'm still believe that there are more chess moves by Oleanna to come.

Once she was back in Highgarden and found out that both of her grandchildren were dead, I think she began moving her grains and gold. To where I'm not sure. Oleanna was a smart cookie and she had plays upon plays. She knows the power in in their stash of gold and in the grains. She knows how important both these things are to Cersei and Kings Landing. Maybe all of it was moved to Dragonstone when she went to meet with Danerys?

In terms of the gold owed to the Iron Bank by Cersei, isn't she responsible for getting the gold physically to the Iron Bank in Braavos?

That would be so satisfying, but as Jamie made his way to Olenna we saw Lannister forces counting and inventorying at least some of the spoils. 

Now I have to pin my hopes on your idea of a delivery failure.  I wonder, would Cersei trust Euron's free prime delivery service?

[KungFuBunny]

20 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

That would be so satisfying, but as Jamie made his way to Olenna we saw Lannister forces counting and inventorying at least some of the spoils. 

Now I have to pin my hopes on your idea of a delivery failure.  I wonder, would Cersei trust Euron's free prime delivery service?

Could be that it's a top layer of what looks like gold but isn't and underneath is hay.

Lady Oleanna went Kamikaze - she knew this was a suicide mission. There didn't seem to be much of a fight nor people around. I'm now also wondering if maybe Oleanna left a bit of grain behind but it's all POISONED and they won't know until it makes its way back to KL

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, KungFuBunny said:

Could be that it's a top layer of what looks like gold but isn't and underneath is hay.

Lady Oleanna went Kamikaze - she knew this was a suicide mission. There didn't seem to be much of a fight nor people around. I'm now also wondering if maybe Oleanna left a bit of grain behind but it's all POISONED and they won't know until it makes its way back to KL

Oooh, Olenna taking a page out of Cersei's book, having learned the lesson about lack of imagination.  I'd put low odds on that one, but I'll be watching to see.

[KungFuBunny]

17 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Oooh, Olenna taking a page out of Cersei's book, having learned the lesson about lack of imagination.  I'd put low odds on that one, but I'll be watching to see.

Euron could also steal the gold and demand marriage to Cersei. Then it will be a play between the 2 to see which one kills the other first

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Euron could also steal the gold and demand marriage to Cersei. Then it will be a play between the 2 to see which one kills the other first

Yep, I wondered if she would directly seek his services to make the delivery, realizing on the water he may be able to seize it anyway if she didn't?  I'd look for her to have him sail it there, possibly under Jamie's supervision.

[KungFuBunny]

17 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Yep, I wondered if she would directly seek his services to make the delivery, realizing on the water he may be able to seize it anyway if she didn't?  I'd look for her to have him sail it there, possibly under Jamie's supervision.

I'm thinking he just takes it from Jaime as Jaime is bringing it to KL. Euron is a bit pissed at Cersei. She said she he would get all he desires AFTER the war is won. He wants in before that happens. I don't think he wants to marry her and live happily ever after to rule as a "couple". He wants the marriage in place NOW and then she dies so he can be the one sitting on the Iron Throne

[Tikichick]

8 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

I'm thinking he just takes it from Jaime as Jaime is bringing it to KL. Euron is a bit pissed at Cersei. She said she he would get all he desires AFTER the war is won. He wants in before that happens. I don't think he wants to marry her and live happily ever after to rule as a "couple". He wants the marriage in place NOW and then she dies so he can be the one sitting on the Iron Throne

I definitely agree Euron's interest in the marriage is neither motivated by true love or a desire for a long future jointly and happily ruling over their kingdoms.

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

I'm thinking he just takes it from Jaime as Jaime is bringing it to KL. Euron is a bit pissed at Cersei. She said she he would get all he desires AFTER the war is won. He wants in before that happens. I don't think he wants to marry her and live happily ever after to rule as a "couple". He wants the marriage in place NOW and then she dies so he can be the one sitting on the Iron Throne

But does Euron ever travel over land?  I thought it was kind of like an inside joke or unwritten rule that Greyjoy's don't "survive" on land; that's why it was such a punishment for Theon to be at Winterfell and not learning the intricacies of sailing and commanding a fleet of ships.  I can't see Euron getting the best of Jaime on land as Jaime travels back to KL.

[LadyArcadia]

On 7/30/2017 at 9:43 PM, lmsweb said:

I really hope Cersei got all that poisoned lipstick off before going straight to Jaime and throwing herself at him. On second thought, I'm starting to hope she didn't.
 

I must be in the minority. The meeting and chemistry with Dany and Jon went exactly as I expected and hoped it would. Dany goes to default High Bitch mode when she feels vulnerable or insecure about something. I don't think it's necessarily arrogance, I think it's her default. Jon has been shown time and time again to be totally uncomfortable with being King in the North. I like their first meeting. I loved the second meeting.

I got choked up before we even saw if was Bran or Arya at the gate. I just knew a reunion was coming.

Great episode overall.

My problem with her behavior is the High Bitch mode switch only seems to get turned on in front of men who appear to be a threat.  I'm rewatching episodes. When Yara and Theon met her she had the same arrogance and commanding presence, but a much softer tone.  She listened rather than bitchily state demands. She was even grinning and flirting a bit.  Had Yara been a man there's no way she would have reacted the same.

She's been that way for a while now.  I'm all about girl power and all that, but her different demeanor with Yara vs. Jon was glaring and it was gross.  Our dragon queen has turned into a sexist.  

You invited Jon to visit you.  He came. Turn the attitude down a few notches, lady.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, LadyArcadia said:

My problem with her behavior is the High Bitch mode switch only seems to get turned on in front of men who appear to be a threat.  I'm rewatching episodes. When Yara and Theon met her she had the same arrogance and commanding presence, but a much softer tone.  She listened rather than bitchily state demands. She was even grinning and flirting a bit.  Had Yara been a man there's no way she would have reacted the same.

She's been that way for a while now.  I'm all about girl power and all that, but her different demeanor with Yara vs. Jon was glaring and it was gross.  Our dragon queen has turned into a sexist.  

You invited Jon to visit you.  He came. Turn the attitude down a few notches, lady.

I think you're comparing apples and turnips.

Yara and Theon came essentially to bend the knee and offer their services, not as fellow royalty -- let alone seemingly in a position that could be construed as open rebellion to her claim.

Dany's "High Bitch Mode"/Regal Queenly Demeanor is typically turned up to high when she's attempting to import her role as royalty or queen to her audience.  She needs this "KITN" to both be convinced of her right to the throne and bend the knee.  She's already certain before his arrival  he's quite unlikely to accede to Cersei's right to the throne, now she needs him to dispense with this KITN notion.  She is slightly mollified by his assessment of her reasoning not to storm KL makes her better than Cersei, but she was quite unprepared for his reasoning to remain KITN and really doesn't know what to make about his fixation about some Night's King, WW, Army of the Dead, etc.  It seems completely absurd to her, but she is beginning to have some inkling that this man isn't seeking to hold his "throne" for its own sake and he views it as entirely separate from her interest in and notion of the IT, which he sees as of no consequence.

[GrailKing]

31 minutes ago, LadyArcadia said:

You invited Jon to visit you.  He came. Turn the attitude down a few notches, lady.

HE's the ONLY one that came ( but she has what he needs ), she going to burn all those other Lords.

[DarkRaichu]

19 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I can understand what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense.  What trips me up is the fact that Jamie experienced something with Myrcella on that boat just before she died in his arms that I don't think he ever allowed himself to even hope for.  He was acknowledged as father by one of his children, and with love no less.  Having it monstrously ripped away like that had to be doubly soul crushing.  If one thing in the world could challenge what he feels for Cersei, I would say it would absolutely have been a father's love.

Yep.  If that is good enough to pull a certain black armor wearing character out of darkness, it should be good enough for Jaime ;)

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

Speaking of her mother, do you think Catelyn would have no idea about armor? If we're saying that Sansa's education all stemmed from Cat -  Cat lived through a war and is aware that a lady's duty is not limited to lounging around embroidering. She's supposed to be able to dress wounds during wartime. 

It's possible, of course, and no, I'm not saying that all of Sansa's education came from Catelyn anymore than saying all of Robb's or Jon's came from Ned. But, once again, we're being asked to make an exception when it comes to Sansa.  The burden of proof is not on the character, but the viewer's ability to fanwank. Every other character's ability in a current skill set has been organic except hers.  We've spent time with Bran absorbing the history of Westeros, watched Tyron being a successful Hand in KL, gone on Arya's journey to become a master assassin, watched Jon grow from a despised bastard to KiTN, and followed Cersei's descent into madness and cruelty, along with many others.  Yet no time has been spared showing Sansa becoming skilled in court politics and intrigue, much less on the most basic knowledge of warfaring equipment.  And that is my point.  We're being expected to just accept all of this because it's Sansa not because she's earned it. What I have seen Sansa do is learn how to lie and conceal, thanks to time spent with Littlefinger, but I'm thinking we're not supposed to think of these as virtues to be praised.

Edited August 2, 2017 by taurusrose
Correct spelling

[TaurusRose]

45 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

HE's the ONLY one that came ( but she has what he needs ), she going to burn all those other Lords.

But has she invited anyone else?  She only invited Jon because of Mel's recommendation and Tyrion's vetting.  Oleanna and Ellaria were recruited by Varys.  And Jon has something she needs as well, the support of the Northern houses.  It will be exciting to see Dany's team put a win on the board after back to back defeats.  I want to see the dragons get in the game.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

It's possible, of course, and no, I'm not saying that all of Sansa's education came from Catelyn anymore than saying all of Robb's or Jon's came from Ned. But, once again, we're being asked to make an exception when it comes to Sansa.  The burden of proof is not on the character, but the viewer's ability to fanwank. Every other character's ability in a current skill set has been organic except hers.  We've spent time with Bran absorbing the history of Westeros, watched Tyron being a successfful Hand in KL, gone on Arya's journey to become a master assassin, watched Jon grow from a despised bastard to KiTN, and followed Cersei's descent into madness and cruelty, along with many others.  Yet no time has been spared showing Sansa becoming skilled in court politics and intrigue, much less on the most basic knowledge of warfaring equipment.  And that is my point.  We're being expected to just accept all of this because it's Sansa not because she's earned it. What I have seen Sansa do is learn how to lie and conceal, thanks to time spent with Littlefinger, but I'm thinking we're not supposed to think of these as virtues to be praised.

To be fair, plenty of people took issue with Arya being able to run the castle at River Run in the fortnight she apparently masqueraded as Walder Frey while his liege lords assembled for the banquet she very thoughtfully arranged for them. 

I thought much the same of that as I did Sansa having a flashback to something she may have rolled her eyes at about Ned going on and on  about in the past, only to have it occur to her when she was walking past the armorer in the keep.  Those girls, all the Stark children really, grew up in a rather isolated backwater castle without tremendous amounts of visitors for social outlets.  I believe Sansa saw and heard and absorbed plenty at WF despite her keen disinterest, much the same as I expect Arya did, as well as the boys, just by virtue of being in close quarters and going about life day after day.   Simply judging by the physical environment we've seen of Winterfell over the years versus the glimpses we got of the physical environs of both Casterly Rock and High Garden in this episode -- growing up as the children of the liege lord in WF versus those two houses alone would be quite a different experience.   

I won't even get into how much "fanwanking" is required about the notion of WF being able to shelter the northern houses if they do flee there.  Just the glimpses we were given of the sprawling expanse of buildings of CR and HG vs. WF made the prospect of WF being capable of sheltering so many was made even more implausible for me in this single episode.

[GrailKing]

32 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

But has she invited anyone else?  She only invited Jon because of Mel's recommendation and Tyrion's vetting.  Oleanna and Ellaria were recruited by Varys.  And Jon has something she needs as well, the support of the Northern houses.  It will be exciting to see Dany's team put a win on the board after back to back defeats.  I want to see the dragons get in the game.

My apologies I missed took her war room talk , thought I heard her mentioning sending Ravens.

Edited August 2, 2017 by GrailKing

[WindyNights]

23 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Inaccurate term.  If Jon is Jon, and he is, how can you call him a zombie? Jon has not given up his agency, personality or soul, if you will.  He is not a mindless, rotting thing forced to do some other's bidding.  He is a living, breathing man favored by forces not totally revealed to us. Jon in no way resembles the reanimated corpses raised by the NK who are zombies.  The word that describes Jon is resurrected.

To be fair, the author himself has called Jon a zombie or rather a fire wight because true resurrection doesn't exist in the books.

Now Show Jon is different so it really is inaccurate to call him a zombie. He's too normal. 

[TaurusRose]

18 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

To be fair, plenty of people took issue with Arya being able to run the castle at River Run in the fortnight she apparently masqueraded as Walder Frey while his liege lords assembled for the banquet she very thoughtfully arranged for them. 

True.  I was not one of them.  However, the skill I'm talking about is being a skilled murderer not running Frey's castle.  Plus, the outcome was far more satisfying than arguing about logistics. I've made my point about Sansa and I think it's a valid one, so I'm done with this. 

10 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

To be fair, the author himself has called Jon a zombie or rather a fire wight because true resurrection doesn't exist in the books.

Now Show Jon is different so it really is inaccurate to call him a zombie. He's too normal. 

LOL 

Introducing GRRM into an argument is a sure way for me

to take the opposite position.

Edited August 2, 2017 by taurusrose

[TaurusRose]

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Which part in previous episode did you miss when she ask that Ravens be sent out to Westeros?

There's no need to introduce snark.  I didn't miss anything, I did forget though.

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

There's no need to introduce snark.  I didn't miss anything, I did forget though.

I retracted be fore I saw your reply, so my deepest apology, I heard  something about Ravens remembered wrongly.

Usually I play back b4 I replied this time I didn't and got it wrong.

[Constantinople]

We're very lucky in the band in that we have two visionaries, David and Nigel, they're like poets, like Shelley and Byron. They're two distinct types of visionaries, it's like fire and ice, basically. I feel my role in the band is to be somewhere in the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water - Derek Smalls, Spinal Tap

I've done my part.  I've brought ice and fire together - Melisandre

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I've done my part.  I've brought ice and fire together - Melisandre

Anyone else thought of puddle of warm water when reading that ???? :D :D :D 

[YaddaYadda]

You know, for all the garbage Littlefingers spews to Sansa about imagining every possible scenario in her head, while I think he thought it was possible that the north would choose Jon as their leader after that godswood scene, he probably didn't imagine that Dany would show up in Westeros to claim the Iron Throne or that Bran would be coming back to Winterfell. Or Arya. (Or the WW, but I'll cut him some slack on this one)

He's such a bag of air.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

To be fair, plenty of people took issue with Arya being able to run the castle at River Run in the fortnight she apparently masqueraded as Walder Frey while his liege lords assembled for the banquet she very thoughtfully arranged for them. 

I thought much the same of that as I did Sansa having a flashback to something she may have rolled her eyes at about Ned going on and on  about in the past, only to have it occur to her when she was walking past the armorer in the keep.  Those girls, all the Stark children really, grew up in a rather isolated backwater castle without tremendous amounts of visitors for social outlets.  I believe Sansa saw and heard and absorbed plenty at WF despite her keen disinterest, much the same as I expect Arya did, as well as the boys, just by virtue of being in close quarters and going about life day after day.   Simply judging by the physical environment we've seen of Winterfell over the years versus the glimpses we got of the physical environs of both Casterly Rock and High Garden in this episode -- growing up as the children of the liege lord in WF versus those two houses alone would be quite a different experience.   

I won't even get into how much "fanwanking" is required about the notion of WF being able to shelter the northern houses if they do flee there.  Just the glimpses we were given of the sprawling expanse of buildings of CR and HG vs. WF made the prospect of WF being capable of sheltering so many was made even more implausible for me in this single episode.

Remember, Winterfell is huge, and an extremely ancient castle.  AND it's like an iceberg, there are the crypts, which are much bigger than the actual footprint of Winterfell, and several stories of them exist under Winterfell.  Further, there are supposedly hot springs under Winterfell, which keeps it relatively warm, and if we're talking about the coldest winter in a thousand years, that's where I'd want to be.  It might be creepy living underground, but that is still a damn sight better than being dead and frozen solid in, say, the Last Hearth or Bear Island.

[Tikichick]

18 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

You know, for all the garbage Littlefingers spews to Sansa about imagining every possible scenario in her head, while I think he thought it was possible that the north would choose Jon as their leader after that godswood scene, he probably didn't imagine that Dany would show up in Westeros to claim the Iron Throne or that Bran would be coming back to Winterfell. Or Arya. (Or the WW, but I'll cut him some slack on this one)

He's such a bag of air.

What caught my attention on second watch was listening more intently to the precise words he said -- and how many of them eerily fit to the potential description of the Three Eyed Raven -- immediately before Sansa was called to the gate because Bran himself had arrived.   It's like the words were literally hanging in the air directly above Bran's head, almost an on the nose verbalization of what we understand Bran's status to be.

[Tikichick]

28 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Remember, Winterfell is huge, and an extremely ancient castle.  AND it's like an iceberg, there are the crypts, which are much bigger than the actual footprint of Winterfell, and several stories of them exist under Winterfell.  Further, there are supposedly hot springs under Winterfell, which keeps it relatively warm, and if we're talking about the coldest winter in a thousand years, that's where I'd want to be.  It might be creepy living underground, but that is still a damn sight better than being dead and frozen solid in, say, the Last Hearth or Bear Island.

I know there is a lot with the crypts, but I don't remember understanding they are that large, or the hot springs.   I remember the descriptions of the rambling and crumbling towers Bran was climbing when he fell, but the show has done little to convey there is much to WF.  I understand that is probably a budgetary choice and I do respect it, but it reaches a point where it can collide with story a bit.  

[Blonde Gator]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I know there is a lot with the crypts, but I don't remember understanding they are that large, or the hot springs.   I remember the descriptions of the rambling and crumbling towers Bran was climbing when he fell, but the show has done little to convey there is much to WF.  I understand that is probably a budgetary choice and I do respect it, but it reaches a point where it can collide with story a bit.  

Here's a bit of the entry from the Wiki of Ice and Fire about Winterfell: 
 

Quote

 

Winterfell is a huge castle complex spanning several acres and protected by two massive walls.[4] There is a village outside, the winter town. Winterfell has been built around an ancient godswood and over natural hot springs. The water is piped through walls and chambers to heat them, making Winterfell more comfortable than other castles during the harsh northern winters.[5]

Inside the walls, the complex is composed of dozens of courtyards and small open spaces. Weapons training and practice take place in those yards. The inner ward is a second, much older open space in the castle where archery practice takes place. It is located next to the broken tower. Inside Winterfell stands the inner castle, which contains the Great Keep and the Great Hall.

 

Full entry:  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winterfell

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Here's a bit of the entry from the Wiki of Ice and Fire about Winterfell: 
 

Full entry:  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winterfell

I've only read the books themselves.  Did Martin release all of this background material? 

[screamin]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

It's possible, of course, and no, I'm not saying that all of Sansa's education came from Catelyn anymore than saying all of Robb's or Jon's came from Ned. But, once again, we're being asked to make an exception when it comes to Sansa.  The burden of proof is not on the character, but the viewer's ability to fanwank. Every other character's ability in a current skill set has been organic except hers.  We've spent time with Bran absorbing the history of Westeros, watched Tyron being a successful Hand in KL, gone on Arya's journey to become a master assassin, watched Jon grow from a despised bastard to KiTN, and followed Cersei's descent into madness and cruelty, along with many others.  Yet no time has been spared showing Sansa becoming skilled in court politics and intrigue, much less on the most basic knowledge of warfaring equipment.  And that is my point.  We're being expected to just accept all of this because it's Sansa not because she's earned it. 

We never saw Sansa deal with household management in a long winter on the show, but for some reason, I haven't seen anyone on these boards - even those who object to Sansa's showing signs of competence in knowing appropriate warm linings for armor - complain how unlikely and unearned it is that she knows how important it is to have enough bushels of grain to outlast a Westeros winter. They're okay with assuming she was taught these things as part of her education as a lady, even though we never SAW her being taught those things or show the slightest interest in grocery shopping and budgeting

But somehow, when she evinces a slight knowledge in winter armor, people call foul because she's never shown the slightest interest in weaponry - even though she's not actually picking up a sword and sparring with it, or even commenting knowledgeably on someone else's sparring match. The fact that she knows what kind of armor a winter lord and his soldiers would wear is called out of bounds and cheating to prop Sansa up - even though those same people are okay with the idea that she knows how to administrate when it comes to supplying WF with food. But if the role of a lady is to competently administer her husband's estate even when he is off at war, it behooves her to at least minimally understand the administration of all affairs under his roof, including maintenance of his and his soldiers' weapons and armor - not so she can make them (let's not be silly) or fight herself (the gods forbid!) - simply to make sure that things are being done as they should be and that she isn't allowing her husband to be robbed blind by his underlings overcharging for work she is ignorant about. I think the issue is more preconceptions about Sansa herself and the role of a chatelaine administrator (which is all Sansa is currently doing) than authorial cheating.

Incidentally, I disagree that no time has been spent on Sansa learning court intrigue. I concede that cutting down book Sansa's time in the Vale stints her education there, but I still think her time in KL and the Vale was a learning experience. 

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

But if the role of a lady is to competently administer her husband's estate even when he is off at war, it behooves her to at least minimally understand the administration of all affairs under his roof, including maintenance of his and his soldiers' weapons and armor - not so she can make them (let's not be silly) or fight herself (the gods forbid!) - simply to make sure that things are being done as they should be and that she isn't allowing her husband to be robbed blind by his underlings overcharging for work she is ignorant about. I think the issue is more preconceptions about Sansa herself and the role of a chatelaine administrator (which is all Sansa is currently doing) than authorial cheating.

Incidentally, I disagree that no time has bee

There's even examples of Stark children on the show and in the books using what they've learned from their education.  Remember Bran is essentially running Winterfell in Season 2.  And when he finds out there's not enough men in the fields, he understand enough to have men sent to work the fields.  Bran was probably primarily trained to be a fighter, but still knew enough about other subjects, because he was getting an all around education.

Also early on, we see Arya being drilled about Banners.  She had no interest in the subject.  However, later she remembered enough to not trust the Bolton Banner(in the books anyway), so that she didn't reveal herself to fellow northerners.

So I think saying that we're suppose to believe that Sansa is an expert on armor is unfair. All we know is that she's smart enough to see that the armorer was probably cutting corners and not including leather or fur into the lining of the armor he was making.  And since she made fur cloaks for herself and Jon last season, she has to have enough reasoning to know that the armor needed it as well.  And she's not shown to be an expert on food supply either.  She asks what the Maester means when he says how many bushels they have.  He says enough for a year.  Again it takes no genius to know that's not enough.  The fact that they have a years worth already shows that Jon or someone at least was already preparing, she only suggests having the other holds send more food in advance.  All the food they can gather means less and less dependence on other people for more food.

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

There's even examples of Stark children on the show and in the books using what they've learned from their education.  Remember Bran is essentially running Winterfell in Season 2.  And when he finds out there's not enough men in the fields, he understand enough to have men sent to work the fields.  Bran was probably primarily trained to be a fighter, but still knew enough about other subjects, because he was getting an all around education.

Also early on, we see Arya being drilled about Banners.  She had no interest in the subject.  However, later she remembered enough to not trust the Bolton Banner(in the books anyway), so that she didn't reveal herself to fellow northerners.

So I think saying that we're suppose to believe that Sansa is an expert on armor is unfair. All we know is that she's smart enough to see that the armorer was probably cutting corners and not including leather or fur into the lining of the armor he was making.  And since she made fur cloaks for herself and Jon last season, she has to have enough reasoning to know that the armor needed it as well.  And she's not shown to be an expert on food supply either.  She asks what the Maester means when he says how many bushels they have.  He says enough for a year.  Again it takes no genius to know that's not enough.  The fact that they have a years worth already shows that Jon or someone at least was already preparing, she only suggests having the other holds send more food in advance.  All the food they can gather means less and less dependence on other people for more food.

Not to undercut your point about the Stark children having some basis of knowledge from their upbringing, because I do agree with it.  But I think in the instance of Bran stepping in to run WF the fact that by and large the household staff remained in place to continue their duties they already understood well cannot be overlooked either.  Bran took counsel from learned and experienced members of the household such as Maester Luwin as well.

 

In a semi related vein, we haven't seen that Dany has a maester at Dragonstone yet, have we?   Even on the basis of being simply mistress of Dragonstone, would she not have the right to contact the Citadel and request a maester for her household?

Edited August 3, 2017 by Tikichick
Double negatives make things confusing

[WebosFritos]

10 hours ago, Tikichick said:

In a semi related vein, we haven't seen that Dany has a maester at Dragonstone yet, have we?   Even on the basis of being simply mistress of Dragonstone, would she not have the right to contact the Citadel and request a maester for her household?

Does Dany even know much about maesters? She grew up in Essos and probably learned her Westerosi history from Viserys, who definitely wasn't the best teacher. She said herself that she didn't really receive a "formal education". In her first meeting with Jon she sounded like her family had just been on a holiday and Westeros should welcome her back. For the people who are around Dany's age or younger, the Targaryens are a part of history. On the other hand, the War of the five Kings is real to them and has had big consequences on their lives for the last few years. She can't just ignore the fact that Westeros is not the same place anymore. She needs allies and Jon, as a member of an ancient house that has been ruling the North one way or another for thousands of years, is an important ally for her. He grew up in Westeros and she needs him on his side. She invited him knowing he had stories to tell about what he had seen beyond the Wall but she antagonized him as soon as he got in. She told Tyrion that Jon had refused to call her Queen yet she was the one who kept calling him "my lord" while Jon referred to her as "your grace". She told Jon he was in open rebellion of her Throne but she hadn't even set foot in Westeros when he was named King in the North. It's absurd to think he would give up his title just because an unproven Targaryen has come back.

Did Tyrion seriously think Jon would bend the knee? He knows what has happened to the Starks, he has met Ned, Cat, Robb, Jon and Bran, he got to spend a lot of time with Sansa and he knows they're a proud and stubborn family. He couldn't seriously believe they would let bygones be bygones, could he? Dany desperately needs new advisors. She can't just count on Varys and Tyrion.