S07.E02: Stormborn

[Colorful Mess]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

As bad as Cersi is (and I don't think anyone is turning handsprings over her being queen), she gets to portray herself as the defender of Westeros. By forming an alliance with Jon, who has a reputation for defending Westeros from his time as Lord Commander at the Wall, she can possibly blunt that just a bit.

Cersei reaching out to Jon as an ally? THAT would be something to see, and would be very unexpected (because we know he'll probably side with Dany eventually). In this episode her speech to the Highgarden lords did make it seem like she would give the same speech to Jon.

Being the pragmatist he is, I can see Jon trying to form alliances with anyone and everyone, which means enemies would have to work together (i.e. wildings and Northern lords). Jon's a uniter but getting Cersei and Dany to agree on anything is probably way beyond his skills. Either way, I speculate that he will see Cersei and Dany's power struggles as unbelievably petty and short sighted.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, Francie said:

We will at that.

But I think you should realize that believing that Tyrion was justified in committing homicide is making a moral judgment. 

I do realize that. "Moralistic judgement" is not a synonym for "moral judgement".  I use "moralistic" when referring to "liking" or "disliking" fictional characters, because "moralistic" implies a fondness ,or opposite emotional reaction, to a characters' depicted behavior. My original point was that I think it is  an inaccurate cateorigization to, place, morally speaking, the killing of two people who are actively attempting to have a person judicially murdered, via a knowingly false murder accusation, with some of the other acts of violence in this show. It doesn't mean I "like" Tyrion. I just think killing people who are trying to have you killed by way of false accusation of murder, is a reasonable moral action, compared to, say, killings committed purely to facilitate the aquisition or preservation of personal power is not.   

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Cersei reaching out to Jon as an ally? THAT would be something to see, and would be very unexpected (because we know he'll probably side with Dany eventually). In this episode her speech to the Highgarden lords did make it seem like she would give the same speech to Jon.

Being the pragmatist he is, I can see Jon trying to form alliances with anyone and everyone, which means enemies would have to work together (i.e. wildings and Northern lords). Jon's a uniter but getting Cersei and Dany to agree on anything is probably way beyond his skills. Either way, I speculate that he will see Cersei and Dany's power struggles as unbelievably petty and short sighted.

I think the poster meant that Dany allying with Jon can blunt Cersei's claim to be defender of Westeros.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I think the poster meant that Dany allying with Jon can blunt Cersei's claim to be defender of Westeros.

 

12 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Cersei reaching out to Jon as an ally? THAT would be something to see, and would be very unexpected (because we know he'll probably side with Dany eventually). In this episode her speech to the Highgarden lords did make it seem like she would give the same speech to Jon.

Being the pragmatist he is, I can see Jon trying to form alliances with anyone and everyone, which means enemies would have to work together (i.e. wildings and Northern lords). Jon's a uniter but getting Cersei and Dany to agree on anything is probably way beyond his skills. Either way, I speculate that he will see Cersei and Dany's power struggles as unbelievably petty and short sighted.

And this is, to me, the interesting part of the show. Jon is the only major political leader, Tormund aside, capable of deep strategic thought, in good part because he is the only one who has first hand knowlege of the nature of the invading force to the north. Jon needs to be FDR/Marshall/Eisenhower combined, but with the handicap of Churchill, Stalin, DeGaulle, etc., having no knowledge of the nature of the Nazis and Japanese imperialists. Quite the task, and if this show's final 12 episodes are to be a success, the writers must nail this. Heres hoping.

[TarotQueen]

16 hours ago, Oscirus said:

No he wouldn't have. Rhaegar's the apple headed moron who plunged this kingdom into a civil war because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants. I really fear what he would've down with real power.

Eh well, I got a couple of other posters little heart marks I'll have to console myself with, but I did go over and post some ideas in thier character thread if you're interested in talking about it more.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, dr pepper said:

I wonder if LF has figured out that Jon is also the last male Targaryan. I'm guessing no, because if he did, he'd switch his focus to having Jon marry Danerys. That combination could pick up a lot of support from the wavering factions or even cause some leaning towards Cersei to stay neutral. Of course, after they secure the continent, he'd go for a coup, but up till then he'd be an asset.

 

( noticed I accidentally hit cap key sorry. )

nOT SURE IF HE FIGURED IT OUT AS FAR AS NAME, my guess, Lyanna wasn't raped.

I admit I fall into the group who believe he spread the rumor, because he was pissed off.

[Hecate7]

22 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

Gendry

Very few people know about his existence, and for all we know he's already dead.

[Diana Berry]

On 7/24/2017 at 1:10 PM, Affogato said:

The dog that played Ghost died recently. I don't know if he filmed any of this season.

So sad

[anamika]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Re: the apparently weird calmness with which Northerners take the news of wights and White Walkers - yes, it's due to the fact that none of them have actually SEEN how creepy they are, but also there's a giant magic Wall there built expressly to keep them out, which has WORKED for millenia, and even doomsaying Jon would've conveyed the info that they can't cross it. So likely even the people who believe Jon may not think of them as THAT serious a threat - no more so than wildlings, who actually CAN climb the wall when the dead cannot, but people have been comfortable leaving the Night Watch to worry about wildlings all this time. No doubt they're continuing the same pattern now.

The wall is magic. Like the WW and the dragons. The thing with magic is that it's unpredictable and people don't know how it works. Qyburn is trying to figure out how to kill dragons. Jon and Sam are still discovering how wights and WW operate and what can kill them. In the books, Jon is literally doing experiments on wights to understand how they work. In the books, there is a horn that can bring down the wall - no one knows how it works. Only that it exists. Jon is following LF's advice of preparing for any eventuality - if the WW cross the wall, then they are doomed unless they are prepared to face them. That's why Jon always says - 'if they cross the wall....'

And we are seeing that. In the new credits for season 7, the sea around the wall is starting to get frozen. The WW are waiting for winter for a reason. What if they can sidestep the wall using the sea? Know one knows what is possible.

With humans, they can plan with a certain degree of certainty using proven facts. Southern armies cannot invade the North and fight in winter and there is always Moat Cailin which has not allowed for southern invasions for thousands of years. These are facts. Jon is basing his decisions on Cersei using facts. Whereas the army of the dead and their masters come with plenty of unknown variables that no one knows much about.

So in reality, people must be terrified of the unexpected. They should be nervous about this army marching on them with powers no one knows about and try to plan a first line of defense in case the wall falls. But as we see, they are just sitting there seemingly not too bothered about these things.

Edited July 26, 2017 by anamika

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Diana Berry said:

So sad

The wolf after whom Ghost was named died (GRRM sponsors a wolf rescue/rehab type organization).  The actual wolf who plays Ghost on the show, is alive and well and living in Canada, his name is Quigley.  :)

[benteen]

5 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

The whole Dorne story line was destroyed in the series.  But the worst of that mess was the silly portrayal of the Sand Snakes.  Good Riddance.

The whole Dorne storyline wasn't exactly a strong point in the books but D&D made it even worse.

[WatchrTina]

On 7/25/2017 at 0:54 PM, doram said:

Jon Snow killed his Lord Commander and a 10-year-old child soldier

Jon Snow's Lord Commander was Mormont who was murdered in Crastor's Keep by that creepy dude that Jon then killed in a knife fight (or was it someone else who put a sword through his neck?  I forget.)  Anyway, then JON was elected Lord Commander.  The guy he had hanged (and the 10-year-old child soldier) were co-conspirators in a plot to murder Jon -- the duly-elected Lord Commander.  He gets a pass from me on executing that group (even the kid.)

And now to bring this back to the episode at hand -- I am very anxious about Jon leaving Winterfell.  I want to be supportive of Sansa but ooooh I don't trust Littlefinger and Sansa's instincts have not always served her well.  Who can she turn to for advice?  Her relationship with Brienne is too new.  If they have a maester he's new too.  I don't think she knows the vassal lords of north particularly well and even if she did she probably wouldn't trust them (some of them HAD to know what a sick MoFo Ramesy was but no one stepped in to help her.)  Sansa may be home now but in a way she's just as alone as she was in Kings Landing.  You know what she needs?  Girlfriend needs a SISTER to lean on.  Hurry up Arya!  (And hurry home Jon!)

Edited July 27, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Diana Berry]

3 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

The wolf after whom Ghost was named died (GRRM sponsors a wolf rescue/rehab type organization).  The actual wolf who plays Ghost on the show, is alive and well and living in Canada, his name is Quigley.  :)

Ty 

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

I fanwanked it that a devoted sculptor started work as soon as he heard about Ned's death, and worked on it ever since (with necessary interruptions for homestead burnings and whatnot) because he just loved Ned as his lord THAT much, and had faith that his bones would be brought home eventually, or if not, at least he should have a proper memorial. Farfetched, but possible.

I'm just using Danny's sailing from Essos, Jorah leaving for the citadel, 7-1 and  7-2 to donate some time has passed.

Along with travel times for the Northern Lords to be in WF.

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Thanks, I didn't realize the burial rituals were that detailed.  So much from the books I've forgotten.  I should re-read, but I'm so miffed at no WOW yet, I don't know as it's worth my while to dig my books out of storage.  GRRRR (notice no "M"). 

I truly believe a big part of the key to many things is buried in the tombs of Winterfell.  Too many clues, and SO much foreshadowing by D&D.  Jon was SPOT-ON in this episode when he said to LF, "you don't belong here". 

I still re read, some times for forums, but mostly I like them.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

The wall is magic. Like the WW and the dragons. The thing with magic is that it's unpredictable and people don't know how it works. Qyburn is trying to figure out how to kill dragons. Jon and Sam are still discovering how wights and WW operate and what can kill them. In the books, Jon is literally doing experiments on wights to understand how they work. In the books, there is a horn that can bring down the wall - no one knows how it works. Only that it exists. Jon is following LF's advice of preparing for any eventuality - if the WW cross the wall, then they are doomed unless they are prepared to face them. That's why Jon always says - 'if they cross the wall....'

And we are seeing that. In the new credits for season 7, the sea around the wall is starting to get frozen. The WW are waiting for winter for a reason. What if they can sidestep the wall using the sea? Know one knows what is possible.

 

If the wights could bypass the Wall by crossing the water, they wouldn't need to wait till it was frozen, they could just walk beneath the water; it's not like they need to breathe. IMO, I think the invasion will come when the Wall falls. And the book has referred to the horn, and IIRC even shown it; I don't remember if the show has. Jon hasn't referred to it much (if at all), certainly.

As for why people in the North aren't more scared of the possibility of White Walkers...remember, the North has spent its summer and fall fighting instead of planting and harvesting. They are going to be facing what they know is going to be an unusually harsh winter with much less than the food stores they need. They are likely more concentrated on the concrete certainty that many of them ARE going to starve, and struggling to get as much food they can together to minimize their losses, than the theoretical possibility of White Walkers (which, unlike winter starvation, none of them have ever seen). In people's minds generally, immediately familiar concrete danger trumps distant possible unfamiliar danger, every time. 

And I'm not saying they're right to ignore the possibility of White Walkers in the near future; just that it's understandable that people would concentrate on the immediate certain danger of starvation over the more distant and theoretical danger.

Edited July 26, 2017 by screamin

[KaleyFirefly]

I don't like Ellaria at all, but I DO NOT want to see a bunch of scenes of Ellaria being tortured by Cersei…

Hot Pie! He's totally going to die, because anyone that says they're safe on this show is jinxing themselves.

I was so happy when Arya chose Winterfell over Kings Landing!

So "Azor Ahai" could be the Prince or Princess That Was Promised...my personal theory though is that Beric Donderrian is Azor Ahai, and that's why the Lord of Light keeps bringing him back from the dead...he has a vital role to play in the coming battle against the white walkers.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

If the wights could bypass the Wall by crossing the water, they wouldn't need to wait till it was frozen, they could just walk beneath the water; it's not like they need to breathe. IMO, I think the invasion will come when the Wall falls. And the book has referred to the horn, and IIRC even shown it; I don't remember if the show has. Jon hasn't referred to it much (if at all), certainly.

They could walk under the water - that's the point, they don't know what the WW and wights are capable of. In the books, I think they can do it (Dead things in the water) but on the show, in Hardhome, the water seemed to stop them. The show has also mentioned the Horn of Joramun - Sam finds it along with the dragon glass in season two. Don't remember if he mentioned it to Jon.

1 hour ago, screamin said:

As for why people in the North aren't more scared of the possibility of White Walkers...remember, the North has spent its summer and fall fighting instead of planting and harvesting. They are going to be facing what they know is going to be an unusually harsh winter with much less than the food stores they need. They are likely more concentrated on the concrete certainty that many of them ARE going to starve, and struggling to get as much food they can together to minimize their losses, than the theoretical possibility of White Walkers (which, unlike winter starvation, none of them have ever seen). In people's minds generally, immediately familiar concrete danger trumps distant possible unfamiliar danger, every time. 

I can understand this sort of reasoning for the southerners. But the north? Which is headed by a house whose house words are 'Winter is coming' and where stories like this are told to children:

Quote

Oh my sweet summer child, what do you know about fear? Fear is for the winter, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides for years and children are born and live and die, all in darkness. That is the time for fear, my little lord, when the white walkers move through the woods. Thousands of years ago there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts. And women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks. In that darkness, the white walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds...

Now, for the first time in a long time, the north is understanding that the mythological WW are real. That the stories about them could also be equally real. That ice spiders big as hounds could be crawling up the wall to the other side. And yet, they seem unconcerned.

And yes, food is important. And Jon has not suggested otherwise. In fact, in the books there is an entire chapter where Jon is worrying about food stores and discussing options with his steward - which funnily enough, made the book boring for many readers. Maybe D and D think that Jon discussing food storage for an episode is also boring and so we don't get to see the Northerners discussing all that.

It's just that the reaction of these people to the WW, giants, dragons, Jon coming back from the dead etc. continues to be disappointing on the show. They all seem to be so nonchalant about these things.

Edited July 26, 2017 by anamika

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

I can understand this sort of reasoning for the southerners. But the North? Which is headed by a house whose house words are 'Winter is coming' and where stories like this are told to children:

Well the main Lord in the beginning didn't believe it when a NW man said it, and then you find a HUGE dead Direwolf, that hasn't been seen for centuries and still think nothing about it; no wonder the other lords are giving Jon problems.

Per the Dancing Master: Seeing is Believing.  

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

I can understand this sort of reasoning for the southerners. But the north? Which is headed by a house whose house words are 'Winter is coming' and where stories like this are told to children:

Oh my sweet summer child, what do you know about fear? Fear is for the winter, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides for years and children are born and live and die, all in darkness. That is the time for fear, my little lord, when the white walkers move through the woods. Thousands of years ago there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts. And women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks. In that darkness, the white walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds...

Now, for the first time in a long time, the north is understanding that the mythological WW are real. That the stories about them could also be equally real. That ice spiders big as hounds could be crawling up the wall to the other side. And yet, they seem unconcerned.

And yes, food is important. And Jon has not suggested otherwise. In fact, in the books there is an entire chapter where Jon is worrying about food stores and discussing options with his steward - which funnily enough, made the book boring for many readers. Maybe D and D think that Jon discussing food storage for an episode is also boring and so we don't get to see the Northerners discussing all that.

It's just that the reaction of these people to the WW, giants, dragons, Jon coming back from the dead etc. continues to be disappointing on the show. They all seem to be so nonchalant about these things.

The North is the region that suffers most in winter, yes. And they are also the ones who are most familiar with those old tales of white walkers. However, elements of that tale you quote are things many Northerners have actually seen with their own eyes - the starving people, the grandfathers going off in the woods 'to hunt' and never come back, so that their death will leave enough food for their children to get through the winter. Such situations are actually commonplace, and many of the older Northerners have likely witnessed such things with their own eyes, unlike White Walkers. Counting up food stores may be boring to television viewers, but to people who depend on those food stores, there is NOTHING they're going to be more interested in than that... and IMO, it would be unrealistic for them to start worrying more about a WW invasion that may come in months, or never, than they worry about the solid and predictable deadline on their lives that inadequate food stores WILL impose. IMO, that's just human nature (which is not so different from south to north).

[anamika]

42 minutes ago, screamin said:

 Counting up food stores may be boring to television viewers, but to people who depend on those food stores, there is NOTHING they're going to be more interested in than that... and IMO, it would be unrealistic for them to start worrying more about a WW invasion that may come in months, or never, than they worry about the solid and predictable deadline on their lives that inadequate food stores WILL impose. IMO, that's just human nature (which is not so different from south to north).

Sorry, but this sounds silly. What makes you think that storing up food is also not important and it's not something they are already doing? Are you saying that Jon asked them to not store food or that he is not making provisions for collecting and storing food so that they do not starve to death while fighting against the WW or something?

I am assuming that as Northern houses, the long winter and any accompanying food shortages is something that they are preparing for and will continue to prepare for. That is their plan as Lord Cerwyn mentioned - namely, ride out the storm. The food shortage during winter and storage is something they should already be familiar with considering all the winters they have faced. This winter is special because of the deadly visitors it's bringing with it. About whom they seem unconcerned - which is my criticism.

And if dwindling food is their most pressing concern, why don't we see them ever bring that up on the show?

The WWs are coming. Jon has told this to them several times each episode - it's coming, it's magical in nature and if it crosses the wall they are doomed unless they can defend themselves in some way. Which again brings me back to my original point - if the northerners who grew up with stories about the WW are this insouciant about the whole thing, what hope can Jon have of convincing southerners that this is an immediate and more pressing concern than fighting for the Iron Throne...

Edited July 26, 2017 by anamika

[screamin]

37 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sorry, but this sounds silly. What makes you think that storing up food is also not important and it's not something they are already doing? Are you saying that Jon asked them to not store food or that he is not making provisions for collecting and storing food so that they do not starve to death while fighting against the WW or something?

It would be certainly silly of me if I had said such a thing, but I neither said nor implied anything of the kind.

Quote

I am assuming that as Northern houses, the long winter and any accompanying food shortages is something that they are preparing for and will continue to prepare for. That is their plan as Lord Cerwyn mentioned - namely, ride out the storm. The food shortage during winter and storage is something they should already be familiar with considering all the winters they have faced. This winter is special because of the deadly visitors it's bringing with it. About whom they seem unconcerned - which is my criticism.

This winter is NOT usual - and not just because of the White Walkers. It comes after an unusually long summer - which generally portends an unusually long winter that will require more food stores to last it out than a normal winter. Another thing that is unusual, that I have already mentioned, that you are discounting - is the fact that there has been a war. In a normal summer and fall, the peasants plant and harvest several times to get enough food to last out the winter. This past summer and fall, the men of the North - including the peasants - have been marching to war instead, leaving their fields mostly unmanned for the sowing and harvest. Also, vast swathes of the North have been pillaged by one faction or another, harvests destroyed or carted off instead of feeding the sowers. So this winter was set to be deadlier than any normal winter BEFORE any whisper of White Walkers, and you can't expect people to forget the credible probability of starvation because of the more distant possibility of White Walkers.

Quote

 

And if dwindling food is their most pressing concern, why don't we see them ever bring that up on the show?

 

You said it yourself, discussing food storage is boring. Doesn't cease to be a factor if you want to actually imagine this as a real world with its own internal logic - which is the fun of immersing onself in a show.

Edited July 26, 2017 by screamin

[anamika]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

You said it yourself, discussing food storage is boring. Doesn't cease to be a factor if you want to actually imagine this as a real world with its own internal logic - which is the fun of immersing onself in a show.

 

But your argument is that they are not worried about the WW because they are more worried about food. If that is the case, then the show should demonstrate that by having them talk about the food shortage when Jon tries to explain to them, in every episode, why they need to prepare for a WW attack.

If the reason for why the Northerners seem to be unfazed by an army of the dead marching on them is because food is the more pressing concern, then they should have had Glover or Mormont speak out about that along with training children and mining for dragon glass. Glover could have asked Jon to go trade with Dany for food. Or trade with the south for food. Or go talk to the Iron Bank. Having one line in there is not going to make it boring, but would rather prove a point. Since all of that was absent on the show, this idea that the Northerners don't care about a giant army of the dead marching towards them because 'food', makes no sense to me.

Edited July 26, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Doing Hodor to save them, I gave a pass, I think if any of us were in that situation we do the same thing, it's survival.

The Merra thing was questionable once, after that is was total mind rape of Hodor.

How do we punish an 8 year old?

Well his actions leading to hodor which caused the mind rape of one guy, and led to the massacre of the children of the forest and the original three eyed raven was quite horrific.  Easily the worst thing a stark's done on this show and that's saying something.

I don't know if it was smart of Jon to take Davos with him. WIth those two gone and the wildlings elsewhere, there's nobody to stress the importance of defending one's self from the White Walkers  I just feel like the focus will go elsewhere until they return.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Oscirus

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

WIth those two gone and the wildlings elsewhere, there's nobody to stress the importance of defending one's self from the wildlings.  I just feel like the focus will go elsewhere until they return.

I'm confused on this, explain please I may have a memory block.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm confused on this, explain please I may have a memory block.

Oops, sorry typo, I meant from the White Walkers.  Let me edit that. 

[GrailKing]

Just now, Oscirus said:

Oops, sorry typo, I meant from the White Walkers.  Let me edit that. 

That's what I thought, thanks.

13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Well his actions leading to hodor which caused the mind rape of one guy, and led to the massacre of the children of the forest and the original three eyed raven was quite horrific.  Easily the worst thing a stark's done on this show and that's saying something.

I don't know if it was smart of Jon to take Davos with him. WIth those two gone and the wildlings elsewhere, there's nobody to stress the importance of defending one's self from the White Walkers  I just feel like the focus will go elsewhere until they return.

Sansa's going to be busy with a whole lot of shit, training Food LF, other lords, Bran and Meera can't get there fast enough, I think if Meera and Bran tells her she'll move into high gear, but LF is going to muck it.

Now Arrya can't get there quick enough.

[dr pepper]

On 24/07/2017 at 6:38 PM, stillshimpy said:

So I was momentarily all "HELL YEAH, a reunion with Jon!"  but of course, he's off to have some really uncomfortable sexual tension with someone we all know is a blood relative instead. 

Not uncomfortable under Targaryan rules!

 

On 24/07/2017 at 9:25 PM, Kathemy said:

Varys is your standard storytelling cruth, both for D&D and GRRM. He knows whatever the story needs him to. He wouldn't know water was wet if it didn't.

cruth? was that supposed to be crutch?

 

On 24/07/2017 at 8:16 PM, Francie said:

Or flip the current birds. 

Get it?

Flip?

the birds? 

yeah, I'll show myself out. 

Are eunuchs allowed to do that?

[Colorful Mess]

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

 

I was hoping we get more with what Jon felt inside the crypts.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

he's watching Arya find a letter, or 2: rumor has it Sophie does another nude scene like with Myranda in Unbow,Unbent,Unbroken; gives meaning to: I learned a lot from her (Cersei ) to Jon in 7-1

Same, I would kill for some self reflection from him (or any character really). For Jon, I'd like some mental health check, ya know, about how he's doing? As for the crypt scene my guess is that he's 1) worried about ending up like Ned down south, and 2) asking forgiveness (silently!) from Ned for leaving Sansa ("father's ghost will haunt me"). But who knows... Jon needs more lines, FFS. I'm still unsure why the choking scene had to happen in the crypts if we get no development from Jon in this setting.

[dr pepper]

On 7/24/2017 at 1:04 PM, doram said:

I doubt it will be a problem if they wed. Jon doesn't want to be King. Dany wants to be Queen. Seems like a non-issue who gets to seat on the Iron Throne. 

I can see Danerys destroying the Iron Throne.

[arjumand]

18 hours ago, Constantinople said:

To summarize

The first part of Tyrion's war plan failed totally

No one, including Varys, had any idea that Euron had visited King's Landing or was in the area. Nor did anyone know that Jon Snow was King of the North until Melisandre turned up.

Yara was caught by complete surprise while sailing to Dorne.

And this is Dany's A team

Yes. Exactly.

And, even though I enjoyed the episode, here comes the nitpicking.

I already had a problem with the fact that in Episode 1, Cersei's already got a map nearly finished and is ranting away, and Dany hasn't even arrived at Westeros yet - that she's landing on Dragonstone at the end of the episode. It reminded me too much of 6x10, where we have a montage of people getting dressed and putting on their finery (in the case of the High Sparrow, his best potato sack), but when we cut to Cersei, she's already dressed and has been for a while.

But I decided to reserve judgement - and in this episode, I'm judging away. See, I'd like someone to explain to me what the hell they were doing while Cersei was inviting Euron, having maps painted, calling in the banners, even from the Reach, etc. Specifically, Olenna. What the fuck, Olenna. In my fond mind, as soon as that Sept blew up, and the raven reached (heh) Lady Olenna, she planted herself in Highgarden and started calling in the vassals, or at least telling them to get ready for shit to go down. Then when I saw her in Dorne in 6x10, I added another image - her getting a message from Dorne, telling the lords she has to go down there to see what that bitch wants, and they should keep sharpening their swords or whatever.

But now, I find out that not only has she done nothing of the sort, her vassals are swanning off to King's Landing, listening to Cersei's pitch! It's all very well to tell Dany that she has to be the dragon, she has a fighting force and some families that owe her allegiance, and she's doing fuck all about it! See, if Olenna had consolidated her forces before leaving for Dorne, and told the lords of the Reach that same deal held as when they supported Renly, when Cersei sent her dumb letters they'd all have done the same as Jon did. I'm still hoping that Tarly just said what he had to say to get out of KL, and is still supporting Olenna - and there's no reason not to. Because the Reach doesn't need King's Landing, but the opposite isn't true. 

Basically, I'm querying all of Dany's team's tactics. See, landing on Dragonstone was a mistake. The whole fleet should have sailed for KL, dropped off some land armies on the way (I hate the Dothraki, but why get them if you're not going to use them), so you're attacking from the sea, from the land, and from the air. Or how about this - night raid - dragon flies silently to the Red Keep, sets Cersei, the Mountain and Qyburn on fire - done.

But that ship has sailed (sorry). They lost the element of surprise the moment they landed on Dragonstone.

Tyrion's failure is also worrying me in another way. Dany told him to write to Jon and invite him to come and bend the knee. But Tyrion didn't put that in his letter - but the letter was written when Tyrion was Dany's bestest Hand ever. Now that the first part of his plan failed and lost them (part of) their navy, he's not going to be so popular anymore, and won't be able to do much for Jon.

Edited July 26, 2017 by arjumand

[dr pepper]

15 hours ago, mac123x said:

Hotpie for High Septon -- he's the only virtuous person left on the show, and apparently he's the incarnation of one of the lesser known aspects of the Seven -- The Chef.

Remember in the books, Arya saw that in Braavos the Smith is called the Carpenter. She was told that that particular aspect could be designated as any kind of skilled worker.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

But your argument is that they are not worried about the WW because they are more worried about food. If that is the case, then the show should demonstrate that by having them talk about the food shortage when Jon tries to explain to them, in every episode, why they need to prepare for a WW attack.

If the reason for why the Northerners seem to be unfazed by an army of the dead marching on them is because food is the more pressing concern, then they should have had Glover or Mormont speak out about that along with training children and mining for dragon glass. Glover could have asked Jon to go trade with Dany for food. Or trade with the south for food. Or go talk to the Iron Bank. Having one line in there is not going to make it boring, but would rather prove a point. Since all of that was absent on the show, this idea that the Northerners don't care about a giant army of the dead marching towards them because 'food', makes no sense to me.

My explanation was not intended to show why they don't care about the WW threat...they do care, they're going along with Jon to the extent that they acquiesce with him going south (a fatal move for the last few lords and king of the north) just to get obsidian, which would be an insane move if they didn't believe it had far more vital use besides being a slightly valuable inlay for knife handles...they just don't care enough to make it their sole principal obsession beyond more immediate and pressing worries. And to me fear of starvation in the winter HAS to be one of those worries...the whole thing about harvests being bad poor or lost to rapine because men have gone to war is universal. War and Famine ride side by side.

I agree it's a flaw in the writing that they don't show at least once that it's a pressing issue...some actual dramatic use could be got from LF playing hard bargainer when asked for Vale food. But that's one of the uses of threads like this one - to cobble together reasonable explanations from the books and our own thinking when the shows plothole.

[anamika]

25 minutes ago, screamin said:

My explanation was not intended to show why they don't care about the WW threat...they do care, they're going along with Jon to the extent that they acquiesce with him going south (a fatal move for the last few lords and king of the north) just to get obsidian, which would be an insane move if they didn't believe it had far more vital use besides being a slightly valuable inlay for knife handles...they just don't care enough to make it their sole principal obsession beyond more immediate and pressing worries. And to me fear of starvation in the winter HAS to be one of those worries...the whole thing about harvests being bad poor or lost to rapine because men have gone to war is universal. War and Famine ride side by side.

What is Jon going to do about starvation by sitting in the North? Agriculture?

Even in the case of food, he would have to talk to the other kingdoms, make treaties and trade. Bargain. For that he needs to talk to the leaders of the other kingdoms and impress upon them the threat of the long winter and the WW. Either way folks are not going to respond if he sits on his ass and sends ravens around with pleas for food, weapons and men.

So again, I don't get this idea that the Northerners are so worried about food that they are nonchalant about the WW and Jon has to keep reminding them of that threat in every damn episode.

25 minutes ago, screamin said:

I agree it's a flaw in the writing that they don't show at least once that it's a pressing issue...some actual dramatic use could be got from LF playing hard bargainer when asked for Vale food. But that's one of the uses of threads like this one - to cobble together reasonable explanations from the books and our own thinking when the shows plothole.

Maybe because the logistics of stocking up on food are already being taken care of. Maybe Royce has already made deals for food from the Vale. And even if they have not, not starving to dead is also linked to getting food supplies by forming allies against an invading magical army of the dead.

The Northerners seem to be written as idiots who don't seem to understand what they are facing and what preparations are necessary. Despite Jon explaining to them again and again, despite 'Winter is coming', Old Nan's stories and WW lore. 

If this is their response, imagine how the southerners are going to react? Jon has got a tough job ahead.

Edited July 26, 2017 by anamika

[Hana Chan]

15 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Cersei reaching out to Jon as an ally? THAT would be something to see, and would be very unexpected (because we know he'll probably side with Dany eventually). In this episode her speech to the Highgarden lords did make it seem like she would give the same speech to Jon.

Being the pragmatist he is, I can see Jon trying to form alliances with anyone and everyone, which means enemies would have to work together (i.e. wildings and Northern lords). Jon's a uniter but getting Cersei and Dany to agree on anything is probably way beyond his skills. Either way, I speculate that he will see Cersei and Dany's power struggles as unbelievably petty and short sighted.

Yikes, I meant that Dany reaching out to Jon would blunt some of Cersi's argument that she's a foreign invader with foreign armies come to wreak havoc on poor beseiged Westeros and that she's the only one who can protect them (shades of a certain US politician who I won't bother naming here).

But I agree that if he has the opportunity, Jon will even reach out to Cersi if it would help the effort against the WW. And I've said it myself, when you consider what the real stakes are, all of these little power games (including Littlefinger and Sansa here) are unbelievably petty. The problem is that except for Jon, a few in the Nights Watch and the surviving Wildlings, no one really grasps this and likely won't until the Wall comes crashing down.

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I don't know if it was smart of Jon to take Davos with him.

Well if you are trying to make an alliance it's probably not a bad idea to bring someone who also has also elected to join forces with you (although in Davo's case, it wasn't so much choice as having no place left to go after Stannis' force was destroyed).  But I presume the real (plot) reason that Davos goes to Dragonstone is:

1. so we can see his tense reunion with Melissandre and
2. so that it can be revealed that he knows some things about Dragonstone that are helpful to coalition.

That last one is pure speculation on my part, but Stannis held Dragonstone for a good long while (17 years in show time?) and Davos served him that whole time so I'm wondering if former smuggler Davos hasn't explored a few caves on the island in his time.

The first item will be interesting for about a second and then Dany will tell Davos to stow his hard feelings.  If Tyrion can suppress his desire to punish Ellaria, who murdered Tyrion's niece Myrcella, then Davos is going to have to swallow his rage over the death of Shireen -- at least while he is on a diplomatic mission to Dragonstone.

[screamin]

46 minutes ago, anamika said:

What is Jon going to do about starvation by sitting in the North? Agriculture?

Even in the case of food, he would have to talk to the other kingdoms, make treaties and trade. Bargain. For that he needs to talk to the leaders of the other kingdoms and impress upon them the threat of the long winter and the WW. Either way folks are not going to respond if he sits on his ass and sends ravens around with pleas for food, weapons and men.

So again, I don't get this idea that the Northerners are so worried about food that they are nonchalant about the WW and Jon has to keep reminding them of that threat in every damn episode.

Maybe because the logistics of stocking up on food are already being taken care of. Maybe Royce has already made deals for food from the Vale. And even if they have not, not starving to dead is also linked to getting food supplies by forming allies against an invading magical army of the dead.

 

The other kingdoms all had the same problem the North did - men at war, invaders devastating and looting crops and homesteads. They are not going to have food to spare. The only regions that didn't have the problem of invaders OR men at war instead of planting till now is Dorne and the Vale - and Dorne is known for being mostly deserts, not rolling waves of grain. It'll have to be the Vale...and since food in a famine is literally more valuable than its weight in gold, the Vale lords are likely striking hard bargains.

Quote

The Northerners seem to be written as idiots who don't seem to understand what they are facing and what preparations are necessary. Despite Jon explaining to them again and again, despite 'Winter is coming', Old Nan's stories and WW lore. 

Eh, I don't see that they're that different from our usual human norm. I mean, look how well we're dealing collectively with the threat of global warming - and we've got more proof of that than the folks of the North have of White Walkers. :/

Quote

If this is their response, imagine how the southerners are going to react? Jon has got a tough job ahead.

I agree he's going to have a harder time convincing southerners of anything regarding White Walkers.

[anamika]

26 minutes ago, screamin said:

The other kingdoms all had the same problem the North did - men at war, invaders devastating and looting crops and homesteads. They are not going to have food to spare. The only regions that didn't have the problem of invaders OR men at war instead of planting till now is Dorne and the Vale - and Dorne is known for being mostly deserts, not rolling waves of grain. It'll have to be the Vale...and since food in a famine is literally more valuable than its weight in gold, the Vale lords are likely striking hard bargains.

Then, if they are already allied with the Vale, the problem with the food is taken care of right? What's the point of being allies otherwise.  In which case they should be shifting their focus to the more pressing concern of an army of the dead marching on them.

26 minutes ago, screamin said:

Eh, I don't see that they're that different from our usual human norm. I mean, look how well we're dealing collectively with the threat of global warming - and we've got more proof of that than the folks of the North have of White Walkers. :/

I agree he's going to have a harder time convincing southerners of anything regarding White Walkers.

I mean, this excuse would work way back in season one when WW were still mythology. But now that there are whole groups of people who have seen them and told people what they can do, it's hard to see why they are so nonchalant about it.  I guess that seeing these things with their own eyes is probably the only thing that is going to drive home the threat for them.

Edited July 26, 2017 by anamika

[domina89]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Well if you are trying to make an alliance it's probably not a bad idea to bring someone who also has also elected to join forces with you (although in Davo's case, it wasn't so much choice as having no place left to go after Stannis' force was destroyed).  But I presume the real (plot) reason that Davos goes to Dragonstone is:

1. so we can see his tense reunion with Melissandre and
2. so that it can be revealed that he knows some things about Dragonstone that are helpful to coalition.

I don't think Davos and Jon will see Melisandre.  I think she will stay hidden or leave while they are there.  If she makes her presence known, it will upset them both (especially Davos) to the point of distraction and Melisandre needs Jon and Dany to connect and focus on the task at hand.  Since she (and maybe even Varys) had a hand in bringing them together, she won't want to derail her own mission that way.

I think Davos is there primarily to be an intermediary for Jon and Dany- similar to Tyrion's role.  Davos has a way with words and Jon doesn't.  He might be able to smooth things over a bit if Jon and Dany start off on the wrong foot.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, arjumand said:

Dany told him to write to Jon and invite him to come and bend the knee. But Tyrion didn't put that in his letter - but the letter was written when Tyrion was Dany's bestest Hand ever. Now that the first part of his plan failed and lost them (part of) their navy, he's not going to be so popular anymore, and won't be able to do much for Jon.

Tyrion is smart, read carefully the note: He's talking to Jon with respect, but at the same time letting Jon know that she has a army larger then his, has the Reach,Dorne, unsully's and Dothroki.

Sansa also picks up on it.

Jon also explained the last line so he knows it's Tyrion.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

I don't think Davos and Jon will see Melisandre.  I think she will stay hidden or leave while they are there.  If she makes her presence known, it will upset them both (especially Davos) to the point of distraction and Melisandre needs Jon and Dany to connect and focus on the task at hand.  Since she (and maybe even Varys) had a hand in bringing them together, she won't want to derail her own mission that way.

I think Davos is there primarily to be an intermediary for Jon and Dany- similar to Tyrion's role.  Davos has a way with words and Jon doesn't.  He might be able to smooth things over a bit if Jon and Dany start off on the wrong foot.

Davos seems to connect on a deep level with girls/young women.  It may just be his hidden super-power.  Woman whispering.

The reason he's going, IMO, is because he's acting as the Hand of the King.  Ordinarily, he'd stay home and rule, but I think Jon's going for a 2-fer, here. (1) Davos & Tormund are his most trusted advisors, but Tormund isn't exactly Court-ready.  Davos has credibility because he can speak to his experiences as Stannis' Hand.  Unbeknownst to the Northern contingent, Dany has confirmation of everything they say, the Red Woman, who will do exactly as you've predicted, IMO, and stay hidden.  (2)  As Brienne's little smile to herself indicated after Jon proclaimed Sansa his regent, Jon is trying to teach Sansa a REAL lesson in what it is to be a leader.  She won't be able to cherry pick what she gets to decide while he's gone, she's going to have to act on the hard stuff, and suffer the acclaim or the consequences, without being able to blame anyone but herself.   I sincerely hope she will grow from this experience, and learn that leadership is hard, and that making excuses or blaming others for your mistakes is just stupid and weak.  It's showtime, Sansa.  Grow the Hell up and stop whining!

[YaddaYadda]

I think it was in this thread where someone wished Hot Pie had made another direwolf bread? And speaking of food, these look extra yummy. The actor who plays Hot Pie...

You know nothing Jon Dough

[Couver]

5 hours ago, arjumand said:

But I decided to reserve judgement - and in this episode, I'm judging away. See, I'd like someone to explain to me what the hell they were doing while Cersei was inviting Euron, having maps painted, calling in the banners, even from the Reach, etc. Specifically, Olenna. What the fuck, Olenna. In my fond mind, as soon as that Sept blew up, and the raven reached (heh) Lady Olenna, she planted herself in Highgarden and started calling in the vassals, or at least telling them to get ready for shit to go down. Then when I saw her in Dorne in 6x10, I added another image - her getting a message from Dorne, telling the lords she has to go down there to see what that bitch wants, and they should keep sharpening their swords or whatever.

But now, I find out that not only has she done nothing of the sort, her vassals are swanning off to King's Landing, listening to Cersei's pitch! It's all very well to tell Dany that she has to be the dragon, she has a fighting force and some families that owe her allegiance, and she's doing fuck all about it! See, if Olenna had consolidated her forces before leaving for Dorne, and told the lords of the Reach that same deal held as when they supported Renly, when Cersei sent her dumb letters they'd all have done the same as Jon did. I'm still hoping that Tarly just said what he had to say to get out of KL, and is still supporting Olenna - and there's no reason not to. Because the Reach doesn't need King's Landing, but the opposite isn't true. 

 

I think Olenna not doing what you are suggesting would be more glaring if the show wasn't portraying her as grief stricken and not exactly rationale. Based on what she said at the end of season 6 she isn't looking for House Tyrell and Highgarden to survive this. I think she realizes that with no heirs left at all apparently (at least on the show) her house is doomed. She's living now to see Cersei pay for what she did. She probably would have been better off seeking revenge with her own forces since she has a lot of what Cersei needs but I think Ellaria and Varys gave her a good pitch in season 6. Based on this episode I think Olenna expected Dany to swoop in and blitz KL and Cersei quick. She wasn't too happy with the approach they ended up taking.

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Tyrion is smart, read carefully the note: He's talking to Jon with respect, but at the same time letting Jon know that she has a army larger then his, has the Reach,Dorne, unsully's and Dothroki.

Sansa also picks up on it.

Jon also explained the last line so he knows it's Tyrion.

I can't see where I contradicted any of this. 

And neither Jon, nor Davos, nor Sansa caught that Dany expects him to bend the knee - if they did, they didn't mention it, whether it was during the reading of the letter, nor when he told them he was going.  Even when Sansa says that it must be a trap, he then still says that Tyrion can be trusted - and he can, except when Jon reaches Dragonstone, Tyrion will be slightly in disfavour (maybe?).

My point was this: Tyrion framed the letter as being 'come and be our ally against Cersei', rather than come and swear allegiance to your new Queen. He seemed to have been expecting that when Jon arrived, and Dany said "I thought I told you to write to him "bend the knee", Tyrion would be able to gentle her into accepting a king in a neighbouring kingdom. Because otherwise, it really is a trap, and Tyrion didn't play it that way.

However, he was expecting to still have his favoured position as the Queen's Hand and her chief advisor by the time Jon arrived - he will still be both, but after the disastrous plan to go back down to Dorne and get another army, which lost Dany her navy,she will not be as receptive to Tyrion's ideas as she was.

 

@Couver

Quote

Based on this episode I think Olenna expected Dany to swoop in and blitz KL and Cersei quick. She wasn't too happy with the approach they ended up taking.

I suppose you're right, but it annoys me still!

Edited July 26, 2017 by arjumand

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, arjumand said:

I can't see where I contradicted any of this. 

And neither Jon, nor Davos, nor Sansa caught that Dany expects him to bend the knee - if they did, they didn't mention it, whether it was during the reading of the letter, nor when he told them he was going. 

My point was this: Tyrion framed the letter as being 'come and be our ally against Cersei', rather than come and swear allegiance to your new Queen. He seemed to have been expecting that when Jon arrived, and Dany said "I thought I told you to write to him "bend the knee", Tyrion would be able to gentle her into accepting a king in a neighbouring kingdom. Because otherwise, it really is a trap, and Tyrion didn't play it that way.

However, he was expecting to still have his favoured position as the Queen's Hand and her chief advisor by the time Jon arrived - he will still be both, but after the disastrous plan to go back down to Dorne and get another army, which lost Dany her navy,she will not be as receptive to Tyrion's ideas as she was.

I didn't take it as a contradiction, I just took it as you may have thought Tyrion way of wording it as a mistake.

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, arjumand said:

And neither Jon, nor Davos, nor Sansa caught that Dany expects him to bend the knee - if they did, they didn't mention it, whether it was during the reading of the letter, nor when he told them he was going.  Even when Sansa says that it must be a trap, he then still says that Tyrion can be trusted - and he can, except when Jon reaches Dragonstone, Tyrion will be slightly in disfavour (maybe?).

They don't need to say it to understand the meaning.

These are 3 people who know the politics, they're not being "invited" for tea and crumpets.

[proserpina65]

In an earlier season, I'd say it was cool that two nice people got to have good, non-violent sex, but it's far too close to the end to waste that many minutes on Grey Worm and Missandei.  Or really, anyone else just having sex.  Although I probably wouldn't complain if they found some reason to get Jaime naked again.

Edited July 26, 2017 by proserpina65

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, proserpina65 said:

In an earlier season, I'd say it was cool that two nice people got to have good, non-violent sex, but it's far too close to the end to waste that many minutes on Grey Worm and Missandei.  Or really, anyone else just having sex.  Although I probably wouldn't complain if they found some reason to get Jaime naked again.

Knowing the clock is seriously winding down on the series it made me annoyed because I realize other things will go unanswered or unseen, sacrificed for this.  Pondering why they chose to spend what precious little time is left on this sequence for these fairly ancillary characters actually intruded on my thoughts while viewing the episode, pulling me out of the story.  It felt shoehorned in, rendering the scene inorganic to the story for me -- left me speculating is this to tick off some type of agenda item to service some segment of criticism in the fan community -- or is this a budget friendly way to fill X amount of minutes, allowing for bigger dragon or other CGI or time or actor-heavy sequences elsewhere?

IMO it's problematic if a segment of your enthusiastic audience is contemplating that type of idea during first watch.  I realize it seems egotistical to count my thoughts as a segment of the audience, however that's really just my recognition of not being clever enough myself to be the only one who would have been thinking similarly.

[FnkyChkn34]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

The other kingdoms all had the same problem the North did - men at war, invaders devastating and looting crops and homesteads. They are not going to have food to spare. The only regions that didn't have the problem of invaders OR men at war instead of planting till now is Dorne and the Vale - and Dorne is known for being mostly deserts, not rolling waves of grain. It'll have to be the Vale...and since food in a famine is literally more valuable than its weight in gold, the Vale lords are likely striking hard bargains.

I understand your point about not having men at war, but I don't think The Reach is hurting for food either.  I always thought that's where most of the food for the entire Seven Kingdoms came from.  Which is why I also didn't quite understand Dany saying that they'd need the Dornish army to cut off supplies - can't Lady Olenna just do that with a proclamation? That has to be the majority of their food at least.

[GrailKing]

21 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

In an earlier season, I'd say it was cool that two nice people got to have good, non-violent sex, but it's far too close to the end to waste that many minutes on Grey Worm and Missandei.  Or really, anyone else just having sex.  Although I probably wouldn't complain if they found some reason to get Jaime naked again.

Then you can't complain if the others got their wish ; )

Lust works both ways. : )

[FnkyChkn34]

26 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

In an earlier season, I'd say it was cool that two nice people got to have good, non-violent sex, but it's far too close to the end to waste that many minutes on Grey Worm and Missandei.  Or really, anyone else just having sex.  Although I probably wouldn't complain if they found some reason to get Jaime naked again.

At the end of the day, it took... what, 3 minutes?  It was nice to see a scene that isn't all doom, gloom, scheming, military strategy, epic battles, or someone dying.  It was also nice to see Grey Worm's butt.  Just sayin'.