S02.E06: Line Of Our Elders

[PrincessPurrsALot]

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Charley's opening celebration of the Queen Sugar mills suffers a setback; Nova learns something surprising about her late father; and Ralph Angel has a run-in with someone he previously robbed.

 

[Neurochick]

Whoa.

Vi should have stepped aside.

Fuck sorry ass RA.

[Dee]

Ralph Angel is the absolute worst.

Other than that? This episode is both Rutina and Dawn's emmy reel. They were phenomenal.

[Racj82]

I've been lying y'all.

Fuck. After that, it was, like watching a car crash in slow motion. 

At the end of the day, none of this stuff with the mill or the farm works without everybody all in. Especially Charley and RA. 

Charley needs to acknowledge that she needs more help than she's saying. RA needs to let the notion of running farm go. Whether or not his dad wanted it, he should also know that he can't be the one in charge. Nova shouldn't put the side on RA. It's not even about it being true or not true. Putting that burden on RA after his fathers death is just too damn rough. Their father could have also reached out for help. He made his choice. 

All of them could and should have been more of a family before but they can't fall apart based on sins of the past. Obviously they could but they shouldn't.

[Artsda]

That dinner was like watching a train wreck you couldn't look away from.

RA should be thrown back in jail by the worker that ID'd him. He's the absolute worst, he picked during grace on a good family dinner day for that? He wants to make things right? Tell your son you are a robber! 

RA should have also been slapped by Darla for the "you're wearing her clothes" comment. The contempt he has for his sister yet takes her money is appalling.

[AgentRXS]

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RA should have also been slapped by Darla for the "you're wearing her clothes" comment. The contempt he has for his sister yet takes her money is appalling.

This. And I'm glad Charley called him out on that fact! And sorry Vi, but there is no sense in talking anymore to that fool. If he can't see that the farm wouldn't be shit without Charley's money fixing every little problem PLUS he's been spared parole violations 4 fucking times since Ernest died (3 of them due to people covering for his ass)....what's left to say? And he has the nerve to compare himself to dudes like Too Sweet who are unjustly incarcerated? Their is no cure for that level of pigheadedness. Props to Rutina Wesley's acting because I got even more heated towards RA when I thought about Ernest spending his last years cleaning toilets to provide for Blue, and here comes RA trying to repay him back with stolen money. SMDH. RA is truly insufferable.

Darla, there is hope for you yet, girl. Keep working, save up enough so you can sufficiently provide for Blue, and come and get your boy. Cause RA's stupid possessiveness is going to drive you right over the edge....get out as fast as you can.

[colorbars]

Boy, was that satisfying, seeing RA get told off, finally. There's been moments where the ladies will kind of nicely/pointedly put him in his place, but I can't really remember any time where any of them were as harsh or straight forward or passive aggressive as he has been to them, especially to Charley. So it was so nice to see his ass get yelled at the end there.

Though even during then, when Charley called him out on using her for her money, he had the audacity to be all "Oh, here she goes" about it. Ugh. And the way he tried to turn it around on them for being in LA or away from home. Like they're obligated to bum around the house once they're grown women. Just because RA had to lean on his father so much because he was doing dumb shit, doesn't make them worse children because they were able to be out on their own and living their own lives.

I really hope the robbery from the pilot being brought back this episode leads to something going forward. With that, plus his other parole violation with shooting the gun a couple episodes back, he really needs to watch himself.

This was a really good episode. I especially liked the scene with Charley/Nova after her meltdown and then  Charley/Darla after the party was over. And of course the big blow up at dinner. it was also nice to see Blue handle the truth about Kenya well, I was dreading a freak out.

Edited July 20, 2017 by colorbars

[mrsbagnet]

1 hour ago, Artsda said:

He's the absolute worst, he picked during grace on a good family dinner day for that?

Right! Seriously, he could have waited until after dinner. Now everybody's pissed off and hungry.

 

9 minutes ago, colorbars said:

it was also nice to see Blue handle the truth about Kenya well, I was dreading a freak out.

Blue's a pretty cool kid. I'm surprised it took him this long to spot NotKenya, but he handled it very maturely. It was nice of RA to not throw Darla under the bus.

[Dee]

Ralph Angel's even made me hate Violet.

Vi is certainly no stranger to self righteousness but it's usually kept in check with a healthy bit of earthiness and humility.

However, whenever she becomes Ralph Angel's biggest cheerleader (which is more often than not), I wanna push her down a flight of stairs. 

I could understand it if Nova and Charley were guilty of bullying Ralph Angel, but they've bent over backwards to accommodate him, including allowing themselves to be pressured (by none other than Violet herself) into salvaging a derelict farm none of them were equipped to maintain. 

But Vi is ALWAYS slamming Charley and Nova while coddling RA, which is on top of her insisting RA is a victim in ALL of the Bordelon sibs various squabbles.

This episode is a perfect example; as soon as Charley opens up about uprooting her family & feeling used or Nova so much as raises her voice or deigns to hold RA accountable for anything, Violet does her best to silence them without saying one word to RA who started all of the drama and snottily kept it going.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Dee

[peridot]

That reporter was such an asshole.  If you're trying to get the truth about things, don't be antagonistic towards your interviewee.  I can tell nothing good will come from him, especially since Charley told him she was getting a divorce.  Her mom really messed her up, I was surprised to see her go crazy over the jam.

I don't understand why Darla puts up with Ralph Angel.  When you change into a nice outfit, the first thing that comes to his mind is "oh, now you're wearing her clothes".  He can't even separate his feelings from his sister from his girlfriend to pay Darla a compliment.  He's determined to shit over all the women in his life.

I can't believe he took "confess everything at the memorial family dinner" from "I'm not a liar".  What the hell is he expecting, for Charley to shut down Queen Sugar and let him run the farm?  What's the point of bringing that crap up, there's no way he can run the farm without Charley's financial backing.  I also hated that he mentioned Charley not being there at the stone unveiling, since he knows it was important for her to prepare for Queen Sugar's opening.  What a short-sighted fool.

[notagain]

That dinner was a train wreck. Nova stepped right into the trap of why criminal justice reform will never happen in the U.S., most people have that " you put yourself there" PoV. Most view all the injustices the system dishes out as part of the punishment/revenge for your choices.  Of course there are the sob stories, like Too Sweet, but there are more people like RA who are effected by the system more. And for innocent individuals to reap the benefits of a reformed system, the RAs of the world would have to benefit as well. 

 

I feel like Queen Sugar is attempting to use RA  as a comment on the recidivism rate in America, the other side to criminal justice reform, I especially felt it strongly in season one.  From the parole officer shutting down the full time farming, because it doesn't meet the requirements of parole. Only for RA to work for a company that was praying on his criminal past (they didn't pay him the hours he worked). Also wasn't everyone in the company part of the stealing? Of course the biggest comment on recidivism is you're pretty much reintroduced  to the same life, which lead you to crime, and some how expected to do better this time ( him stealing for the corner store). And every mistake he's made have been parole violations, something I think plays a huge part of the recidivism rate and is counterproductive to it's purpose. 

 

 After watching this episode I'm questioning if Nova cares about that side of justice reform. 

[Keepitmoving]

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After watching this episode I'm questioning if Nova cares about that side of justice reform. 

I'm not questioning if she cares not one bit, she cares enough.  I had absolutely NO problem with her telling his ass that he, put himself in jail. Are you kidding me? I'm sorry, I could never get behind RA being like many of the black men who come out of prison, with everything stacked against them so that they will end up right back in jail. Nope, sorry, RA has a loving family and more than one roof over his head. He has the farm his father left him, and if need be, Aunt Vi would house, feed and clothe he and his son. He's NOT like the rest of the black men who come out with no support system, living at half-way houses if they can even get that. Then to top it all off he robbed that convenient store and for what? To lie to his father and give himself some false sense that he was contributing to his father's household or paying his father back by giving him stolen money. I was totally on Nova's side.  

 The anger from both girls is clearly their sadness at being left out by their father in that Will. It was clear what Nova was implying IMO by bringing up how her father worked himself to the bone for RA, because RA couldn't pull his own damn weight as a result of HIS shitty choices, and still, said father, leaves it all to the kid who caused so much trouble. If that's not what she was implying then, it sure would have been what I would be implying. That's how I would have felt. By the way, I want to hear that letter read aloud again, because said father DID mention his girls, he did. I know  I heard him refer to ALL of his children and the word legacy. Hell, at least give Charley and Nova that, that they were at least referred to by their father. Stop play Ava D. and let's hear that letter again, and not act like he didn't mention his daughters at all.

Ralph Angel claims they are ashamed of him. I don't see his sisters being ashamed of him. I never got the impression that anyone in the family is ashamed of him as he claimed. I get that they tread lightly in having faith that he can handle certain responsibilities and they are ALL justified in feeling that way. But STILL, they have had his back, time and time again.  I can't even be tired of his bullshit anymore, he's exhausting, I'm tapped out with him. The only thing that keeps me from saying that I can't stand him is that he is loving to his son, despite his horrible choices and fucking whining. Also, the way he treated his childhood transgender friend. RA has a heart, but I couldn't take him for more than a minute around me.

Going forward, I want to know how in the hell did RA turn out the way he did, how? I get no impression that he was wrongfully accused, arrested, incarcerated with an unfair sentence. Why did he commit said crime with the family he has? Why? They seem to be a good family aside from his father cheating on his mother and bringing and illegitimate child into the mix. Was that it? Was that when RA went down the wrong road? Because they only saw that half sister in the summer for the most part. Did Earnest actually leave his wife for a time? I want to know what exactly went down between Earnest and his wife and Charley's mother and exactly how that affected Nova and RA? Because no way in hell it didn't. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[AgentRXS]

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Why did he commit said crime with the family he has? Why? They seem to be a good family aside from his father cheating on his mother and bringing and illegitimate child into the mix. Was that it? Was that when RA went down the wrong road? Because they only saw that half sister in the summer for the most part. Did Earnest actually leave his wife for a time? I want to know what exactly went down between Earnest and his wife and Charley's mother and exactly how that affected Nova and RA? Because no way in hell it didn't. 

Since Charley is older than RA, all that went down before he was born. Not that finding out the family history didn't have an effect on him, but I don't think it was a major  turning point.

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I'm not questioning if she cares not one bit, she cares enough.  I had absolutely NO problem with her telling his ass that he, put himself in jail. Are you kidding me? I'm sorry, I could never get behind RA being like many of the black men who come out of prison, with every stacked against them so that they will end up right back in jail. Nope, sorry, RA has a loving family and more than one roof over his head. He has the farm his father left him, and if need be Aunt Vi would house, feed and clothe he and his son. He's NOT like the rest of the black men who come out with no support system, living at half-way houses if they can even get that. Then to top it all off he robbed that convenient store and for what? To lie to his father and give himself some false sense that he was contributing to his father's household or paying his father back by giving him stolen money. I was totally on Nova's side.  

Yes. RA needs to stop playing the victim.He was never and has never been in fear of being homeless. He never had to attempt to retrieve Blue out of a foster care system. In the pilot, he was introduced not as hardworking down on his luck young man, desperately looking to provide for his son. No, he was introduced to us by stealing food and money from a convenience store while his father was scrubbing floors to provide for his grandson. And that shows just what kind of man RA is right there. He hasn't manned up on one decision yet. In his mind, its ok for the female family members to cover his ass (legally and financially) but he should be entitled to everything, and they should just do for him because he's their brother/nephew. Fuck that. And fuck Vi and Ernest for allowing RA to grow up with mindset.

[Keepitmoving]

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Since Charley is older than RA, all that went down before he was born. Not that finding out the family history didn't have an effect on him, but I don't think it was a major  turning point.

Oh yeah, good point. 

What did RA go to jail for again?  I know he said he was locked up for four years right?

[sereion1]

To be honest, I have always rooted for RA because he is trying to better himself, a loving father to Blue, and I want him to win, but he frustrates me because he constantly sabotages himself, and leaves everyone to clean his mess. I had a feeling spilling the beans about the land would not go well with the sisters. I get that he wanted confess, but if he had any sense he should have either told them from the beginning or listened to Aunt Vi, and kept his mouth shut (then again, it would have came to light somehow--he and Charley would have one of their spats and he'll blurt it out). Since Charley, practically financing the land, it was wrong from him to keep this a secret. Now this has caused a serious rift in the family, as RA as finally burned his bridges with both Charley AND Nova--and maybe Aunt Vi, since she warned him....and now Darla has put herself in a predicament as she his working for his sister. Aside from Blue, she should just separate herself from the Bordelon family, and start her own life. She's doesn't need the stress.

That said, it's sad that their father worked himself to the grave, to provide for the family while RA kept getting himself locked up.

Edited July 20, 2017 by sereion1

[Keepitmoving]

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To be honest, I have always rooted for RA because he is trying to better himself, a loving father to Blue, and I want him to win, but he frustrates me because he constantly sabotages himself, and leaves everyone to clean his mess. 

I root for him too. Like I said, I can't say that I can't stand him, because he's a loving father to Blue. But robbing a store and leaving Blue on a park bench while he does it sorta contradicts that.  It's hard reconciling the two sometimes. I just can't take his bullshit. I want him to get some of his shit together already, he's got such support and such a decent family. I don't expect him to get it all together, but I need some more growth, just a bit more and less whining. RA is so caught up in acting like he should NOT have to still prove himself before his family eases up on him and I don't agree with that attitude. Yes, he's done his time for the state of Louisiana, but he knows, and we the viewers know, that he still can't be fully trusted. Why? He ROBBED a store while on parole. I'm like a broken record with this one, because I just can't get over it, I can't understand the logic, I can't. Now, I can give him some leeway for what he got himself into on the job at the warehouse, he was set up and they put shit in his locker. I mean, if he went to the boss and confessed that someone put stolen goods in his locker...well, please, that boss wouldn't have believed him and it all just spiraled. But come on RA, you are going to have to get use to having to prove yourself time and time again for quite a while to get the kind of respect that you think you deserve. 

[Sharper2002]

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I could understand it if Nova and Charley were guilty of bullying Ralph Angel, but they've bent over backwards to accommodate him, including allowing themselves to be pressured (by none other than Violet herself) into salvaging a derelict farm none of them were equipped to maintain. 

But Vi is ALWAYS slamming Charley and Nova while coddling RA, which is on top of her insisting RA is a victim in ALL of the Bordelon sibs various squabbles.

This episode is a perfect example; as soon as Charley opens up about uprooting her family & feeling used or Nova so much as raises her voice or deigns to hold RA accountable for anything, Violet does her best to silence them without saying one word to RA who started all of the drama and snottily kept it going.

So this really brought something home for me on a personal level, too. I have a cousin that is a lot like RA: the only boy in our generation, aimless, been to jail a few times, doesn't have a steady job and he just does whatever he wants to do, there for his kid, but not necessarily dependable. His mother and father worked themselves to the bone to provide for him and he grew up in a very loving and respectful family.

The older women in my family (aunts, my mom) are very much like Aunt Vi: they coddle him, tell the rest girls to lay off of him and tell him that he's fine. Tell us that he's a victim (of something) and he can do whatever, blah blah blah. I've been accused of being jealous, spiteful or putting him down whenever he...does what he does. Now? I'm just quiet and I shake my head from a distance. LOL.

That said, I think back to aunt Vi and the women in my family and realize that there are quite a few families that value and treasure the son, who is in line to carry on the namesake and the pride of the family. If he messes up along the way? That's just in his nature, but we carry him along anyway. For the women, it's a bit different. We don't get those types of chances and sometimes -- we don't get that type of support. 

Anyway, seeing this family dynamic on TV just makes my blood boil, but I'm definitely familiar with it. I'll be damned if I ever raise my son like that (if I have one).

[Sheenieb]

@Keepitmoving, if I were Baptist, I would've played the organ and the tambourine after your post. You out here preaching.

I want to like RA, but he makes it so hard. He has goodness in him, but his entitlement is irksome. What I want to know is, what did he expect to gain by telling his sisters about the letter? Did he expect Charley to say, "okay, RA, I'll shut down the mill. It's all on you"? Did he seriously think that the news would've went well? That it wouldn't go over like a lead balloon?

RA is the embodiment of the expression, "mothers love their sons, but raise their daughters." The boy is always the prince who gets all kinds of leeway when they fuck up. It's infuriating.

I am liking how we're getting tidbits of Darla's life. She seems to have a similar upbringing to Charley. She was involved in cotillion, she has a overbearing parent, etc. Her and RA wouldn't have existed in the same orbit if she never went on drugs. I want to learn how her life went off the rails.

[Arcadiasw]

In the words of Fred Sanford, “You big dummy.”

I wanted to smack RA from the start of the episode to the end. How can RA have such contempt for his sister but doesn’t mind taking her money? It’s not the moment for it but it would’ve been hilarious if Charley had a Clair Huxtable rant moment similar to Clair yelling at Sondra over how much money she spent putting her through college and demand her money back.

When RA claimed Nova and Charley were ashamed of him, I think that’s his own insecurity coming out. His sisters didn’t go to jail. They got an education and have been successful at what they do. RA hasn’t had that opportunity.  I think he’s ashamed of himself but puts it off on his sisters who haven’t acted ashamed of him.

The way the reporter questioned Charley and Remy, you’d think he’s a plant by Landry. Charley shouldn’t have told the reporter about Davis to keep him quiet. It’s not like he filmed Charley’s meltdown. I would’ve called his bluff and deny it if he did leak it or spin it.  

Kudos to Rutina Wesley acting at the mill opening and at the dinner table. During Charley’s speech, you can see the emotions on Nova’s face and knowing she’s thinking about their father working as a janitor and what he sacrificed. At the dinner table with RA confession of the letter, you can slowly see the anger building in her as she’s thinking about Ernest’s sacrifice and RA claiming the farm as his without even putting in as much work or sacrifice as Ernest.

Even though it was a serious moment I did laugh at Hollywood telling Darla to stay out it.  Darla needs to get confidence in herself and realize she can do better. 

[jhlipton]

17 hours ago, colorbars said:

it was also nice to see Blue handle the truth about Kenya well, I was dreading a freak out.

Blue is 10 times more mature than his dad.  RA [*] would have pissed and moaned for days if his doll was thrown out.

11 hours ago, peridot said:

That reporter was such an asshole.  If you're trying to get the truth about things, don't be antagonistic towards your interviewee. 

If I was Charley, I would have stopped the interview after the second question.  "Are you a reporter for Esquire or National Enquirer?  Because you are about to witness a huge historic event and you want a story for TMZ?  Bye, chump!"  (Considering what a historic event it was, there would have been massive media coverage, especially with a Congressman on hand.

[*] I feel that RA insisting people call him Ralph Angel is a neon sign of the problem.  That's a little boy's name -- an adult would go by RA, Ralph, or Ralph A.  Grow the f*** up, dude.

[Neurochick]

The problem I have with RA is that he won't grow the fuck up.  What did he think would happen when he told his sisters about the will?  In a second everybody began to turn on each other.  RA didn't think it through.  If he had he wold have kept his big mouth shut.

Some secrets need to be taken to the grave.  If RA had any balls, he should have taken that will and shredded it.  

[Mozelle]

I'm not certain what the hell RA thought would happen upon sharing that news. Did he think Charley and Nova woulda said, "Oh, OK. The farm is now yours to run...with Charley's money, of course."? He's so impulsive and about proving to others that he's got it under control that he ends up doing the exact opposite. 

Has it been established exactly how old Ralph Angel (and Darla) is supposed to be? Kofi is 23, so I'm wondering if Ralph Angel is supposed to be early 20s as well. That impulsive, "to hell with everything because I know everything" is so typical in so many early 20-somethings. 

Man, and just when they were slowly getting things back together, here go Ralph Angel to bust it up. That said...

3 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Blue is 10 times more mature than his dad.  RA [*] would have pissed and moaned for days if his doll was thrown out.

If I was Charley, I would have stopped the interview after the second question.  "Are you a reporter for Esquire or National Enquirer?  Because you are about to witness a huge historic event and you want a story for TMZ?  Bye, chump!"  (Considering what a historic event it was, there would have been massive media coverage, especially with a Congressman on hand.

[*] I feel that RA insisting people call him Ralph Angel is a neon sign of the problem.  That's a little boy's name -- an adult would go by RA, Ralph, or Ralph A.  Grow the f*** up, dude.

I don't fault Ralph Angel for expecting people (other than his family members) to call him by his full name. Unless and until he gives the permission to shorten his name, then that person needs to call him by his full name. Names are important, and someone taking the time learn it and say it properly is equally significant. 

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Mozelle said:

I don't fault Ralph Angel for expecting people (other than his family members) to call him by his full name. Unless and until he gives the permission to shorten his name, then that person needs to call him by his full name. Names are important, and someone taking the time learn it and say it properly is equally significant. 

That's not really my point -- I think it's childish to keep the "Angel", period.  Names are important, and "Angel" is holding him back. YMMV

[Dee]

7 hours ago, Mozelle said:

Has it been established exactly how old Ralph Angel (and Darla) is supposed to be? Kofi is 23, so I'm wondering if Ralph Angel is supposed to be early 20s as well. That impulsive, "to hell with everything because I know everything" is so typical in so many early 20-somethings. 

During the settling of Ernest's estate, Nova confirmed Ernest drafted his will right after Ralph Angel was born in 1989.

So, if the show is going by this year, that makes Ralph Angel, at his oldest, 28 or 29.

And RA being 28-29 fits, given his relationships to his sisters; seeing as they (Nova & Charley) have a more established/solid bond with each other than they do him, which seemingly has a lot to do with their own respective ages and everything that happened between True/Ernest/Lorna imo. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Dee

[Dee]

16 hours ago, Neurochick said:

The problem I have with RA is that he won't grow the fuck up.  What did he think would happen when he told his sisters about the will?  In a second everybody began to turn on each other.  RA didn't think it through.  If he had he wold have kept his big mouth shut.

Some secrets need to be taken to the grave.  If RA had any balls, he should have taken that will and shredded it.  

My problem is RA keeps saying Nova and Charley want to "take" things from him & his insistence that he's the noble son who loved Ernest the most; when, in reality, his sisters have done nothing but try to include him in all family related matters even though both his freedom and finances are significantly compromised, and, as Nova said, he wasn't interested in being around the farm either.

He offers neither of his sisters anything remotely resembling emotional support (despite being critical of the lives they lead) yet he's furious, if and when, they don't treat him with kid gloves.   

He acts the same way with Darla. She expresses a need to stand on her own and not be dependent on him, and he does everything in his power to undermine her confidence and sabotage her recovery. She offers to help pay for dinner and/or swimming lessons for Blue, after telling him antiquated gender roles are unnecessary to their relationship, and he acts like it's an affront to his manhood. 

He's just the worst.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Dee

[Mozelle]

6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

That's not really my point -- I think it's childish to keep the "Angel", period.  Names are important, and "Angel" is holding him back. YMMV

Mileage certainly does vary. I'm of the opinion he's just fine as Ralph Angel, and that the "Angel" part of his name is not holding him back. 

5 hours ago, Dee said:

During the settling of Ernest's estate, Nova confirmed Ernest drafted his will right after Ralph Angel was born in 1989.

So, if the show is going by this year, makes Ralph Angel, at his oldest, 28 or 29.

And RA being 28-29 fits, given his relationships to his sisters; seeing as they (Nova & Charley) have a more established/solid bond with each other than they do him, which seemingly has a lot to do with their own respective ages and everything that happened between True/Ernest/Lorna imo. 

Ahhh, OK. Then my theory goes up in smoke. However, it also makes some sense for why he doesn't seem to know Darla. I was under the impression that they had dated in high school, which was why I didn't understand how Ralph Angel was surprised to learn certain things about Darla at this late date. However, RA is pushing 30, and it looks as though he didn't really know Darla until his 20s.

But in addition to that, he's also definitely at an age where he needs to get his shit together. Nova and Charley have been quite accommodating, especially since they were under the impression that Ralph Angel was doing more to help Ernest with the farm than he actually was they've come to learn recently. 

[Dee]

It's just really galling to watch EVERY woman in Ralph Angel's life prostrate themselves for his comfort and affection when he offers them nothing in return but headaches, heartaches and aggravation.

This show receives a lot of undeserved props for it's 'progressive' feminism when, in reality, it's deeply patronizing and defiantly misogynistic.

[Neurochick]

12 minutes ago, Dee said:

It's just really galling to watch EVERY woman in Ralph Angel's life prostrate themselves for his comfort and affection when he offers them nothing in return but headaches, heartaches and aggravation.

This show receives a lot of undeserved props for it's 'progressive' feminism when, in reality, it's deeply patronizing and defiantly misogynistic.

True, and this happens a lot in real life too.  I think the idea is, "hold up the man because he protects and provides" but RA isn't doing ANY of that.  He's a drain on the women in his life.

[Mozelle]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

It's just really galling to watch EVERY woman in Ralph Angel's life prostrate themselves for his comfort and affection when he offers them nothing in return but headaches, heartaches and aggravation.

This show receives a lot of undeserved props for it's 'progressive' feminism when, in reality, it's deeply patronizing and defiantly misogynistic.

Liiiiissssttteeeennnn!!! I have so much I want to say. I do think this show is progressive in its feminism, but it's also hitting on some intraracial dynamics between Black women and Black men in, I feel, a pretty real way. 

There's the conflict of trying to be there and receptive to the plight of Black men in this society but also realizing that Black women matter as well, and we deal with not only racism but sexism/misogyny. There are many expectations that Black women uplift Black men because systemic racism in the United States shits on them (and, hey! guess what? We get it, too!). However, what also ends up happening--and we are seeing this with how Ralph Angel interacts with not only his sisters but Darla, too--is that sometimes those Black men don't show up for Black women in the ways Black women show up for Black men. 

I went to a book talk last night at Politics & Prose that was about policing and how it affects Black boys and men. I went because I'm always interested in learning more. But whenever books or articles of this nature are published I'm also always keenly aware how Black girls and women are disproportionately left out of the discussion when we're also affected by policing and mass incarceration (not just because Black fathers and brothers and sons and cousins are affected but because we, Black women, literally are on the receiving end of over policing and being imprisoned at rapid rates). 

I say all this to say, I totally get why Nova, especially, was finally over it with Ralph Angel. She's been there, trying to be mediator between him and Charley, and trying to understand where Ralph Angel is coming from but he really doesn't give two shits. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Mozelle

[jhlipton]

The "choke" was not realistic.  Yes, machines fail from time to time, but if the mill can't handle one hopper of cane, then how is it supposed to handle 20 full harvests?  And was no one watching -- if it started to clog. slow it down and resume at a slower speed.  I get that they needed something to go wrong, but that just didn't work for me.

1 hour ago, Dee said:

This show receives a lot of undeserved props for it's 'progressive' feminism when, in reality, it's deeply patronizing and defiantly misogynistic.

Possible male privilege ahead:  Yes and no.  I don't see Charley and Remy as a paternalistic relationship, and it certainly had the potential to go there.  We haven't seen enough of Dr Dubois, but neither he nor even Calvin seem paternalistic.  Hollywood is starting to get on my last nerve, however, telling Vi what she should and should not do.  I hope she tells him to "have several seats", as the young folk say.

6 minutes ago, Mozelle said:

1) There's the conflict of trying to be there and receptive to the plight of Black men in this society but also realizing that Black women matter as well, and we deal with not only racism but sexism/misogyny.

2)  I'm also always keenly aware how Black girls and women are left out of the discussion when we're also affected by policing and mass incarceration ... because we, Black women, literally are on the receiving end of over policing and being imprisoned at rapid rates). 

3) I totally get why Nova, especially, was finally over it with Ralph Angel. She's been there, trying to be mediator between him and Charley, and trying to understand where he's coming from but Ralph Angel. But he really doesn't give two shits. 

1) The intersection (there's that word that a lot of people want to deny) of two oppressed groups is never less oppressed than either group alone,

2) American Violet is a true story.

3) This is what gives me hope.  Nova is starting to call RA on his shit, and even Darla is standing up to him on things that matter to her (Blue having swimming lesson's and taking the job with Charley).

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

My problem is RA keeps saying Nova and Charley want to "take" things from him & his insistence that he's the noble son who loved Ernest the most; when, in reality, his sisters have done nothing but try to include him in all family related matters even though both his freedom and finances are significantly compromised, and, as Nova said, he wasn't interested in being around the farm either.

Actually, they decided to keep the farm because once again, Aunt Vi pleaded with them to consider it for RA. That idiot was sitting right there at the table with his sisters and aunt Vi pleading for them to not let it go and they gave him what he wanted. So they literally kept the farm FOR him, so how he thinks that they want to take it from him is beyond me.  I guess he wanted Charley to just STFU, but cut those checks. Once again, like I previously posted, they don't trust him, it's about trust not shame RA.  And he's earned that mistrust. He has NOT been responsible, but he expects that whenever he asks to do something that requires a lot of responsibility, that his family should't side eye him. Well, not happening, you paid your dept to Louisiana, but that doesn't mean that you still don't have to prove yourself to the people in your life. He needs to take a damn page from Darla, Darla gives absolutely NO attitude about having to prove herself and she gets that she has a long way to go. I appreciate that from her and I'll appreciate her even more when she calls out RA on his selfish ass with regards to her recovery.

Quote

There's the conflict of trying to be there and receptive to the plight of Black men in this society but also realizing that Black women matter as well, and we deal with not only racism but sexism/misogyny.

Lordy, thank you, thank you. But yet I'm the "angry black woman." I should just smile and be pleasantly content all the time so I can be a soft place for the black man to fall as if I'm June fucking Cleaver. June fucking Cleaver could act that way because she was protected and cherished, so of course she was walking around smiling with a damn apron on all day.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Mozelle]

17 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

1) The intersection (there's that word that a lot of people want to deny) of two oppressed groups is never less oppressed than either group alone,

2) American Violet is a true story.

3) This is what gives me hope.  Nova is starting to call RA on his shit, and even Darla is standing up to him on things that matter to her (Blue having swimming lesson's and taking the job with Charley).

I'm not understanding your first and second items. The intersection is never less oppressed? As for the second item, I should have been more precise in my language by adding "disproportionately" here: "I'm also always keenly aware how Black girls and women are disproportionately left out of the discussion...".

[riverheightsnancy]

I loved it when Nova rose up and just let the anger out. Emmy reel for me right there. It felt real and authentic. I think that RA doesn't really "know" Darla. He was surprised when he found out that she was a good athlete in college (high school?) and that she went to college. I bet they met when she was doing drugs and never bothered to think that there may be a lot more to her. Not sure RA is going to like her that much anymore when he finds out about her for real. I am very interested in her story. When Charley went over her resume, she has way more ability and experience than being a parking lot attendant. Working with Charley will be really good for her and she fell into it easily and did a good job. Not your stereotypical drug addict/prostitute. Maybe that is the author's point? 

[Empress1]

47 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I loved it when Nova rose up and just let the anger out. Emmy reel for me right there. It felt real and authentic. I think that RA doesn't really "know" Darla. He was surprised when he found out that she was a good athlete in college (high school?) and that she went to college. I bet they met when she was doing drugs and never bothered to think that there may be a lot more to her. Not sure RA is going to like her that much anymore when he finds out about her for real. I am very interested in her story. When Charley went over her resume, she has way more ability and experience than being a parking lot attendant. Working with Charley will be really good for her and she fell into it easily and did a good job. Not your stereotypical drug addict/prostitute. Maybe that is the author's point? 

I've seen enough Intervention to know that there are lots of different kinds of addicts, from "he never stood a chance with those parents" addicts to middle and upper-middle class addicts who try this or that recreationally and then it gets out of control. I went to middle school with a girl who was a serious addict by the time she was 16 (ran away, lied about her age so she could strip to support her habit), and she came from a good family. The middle school we went to is private. (She's sober, engaged to a good man, and has a good job now.) I'm guessing that Darla comes from a good family (she's said as much) and tried something, got hooked, and it snowballed. Can happen to literally anyone.

I have to go to a memorial service tomorrow so I was crying at the scene of the family at Ernest's grave. And I, like most of you, was mad AF at Ralph Angel for bringing all that up. What did he think was going to happen? Charley would be like "Oh cool, you can have the farm and I'll keep funding it?" The hell? Ralph Angel is SO babied. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Empress1

[riverheightsnancy]

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

I've seen enough Intervention to know that there are lots of different kinds of addicts, from "he never stood a chance with those parents" addicts (and  to middle and upper-middle class addicts who try this or that recreationally and then it gets out of control. I went to middle school with a girl who was a serious addict by the time she was 16 (ran away, lied about her age so she could strip to support her habit), and she came from a good family. The middle school we went to is private. (She's sober, engaged to a good man, and has a good job now.) I'm guessing that Darla comes from a good family (she's said as much) and tried something, got hooked, and it snowballed. Can happen to literally anyone.

Yes, you are so correct (I used to work in drug treatment), but literally no one would give Darla a chance, YET they pamper RA and cover for him all the time. Maybe the tide is turning on that, which would help RA grow up, but he won;t see it that way (at least for now). They are all doing a great job on this show. Really enjoying it. (Can't wait for Greenleaf to come back too). 

[Dee]

4 hours ago, Mozelle said:

Liiiiissssttteeeennnn!!! I have so much I want to say. I do think this show is progressive in its feminism, but it's also hitting on some intraracial dynamics between Black women and Black men in, I feel, a pretty real way. 

There's the conflict of trying to be there and receptive to the plight of Black men in this society but also realizing that Black women matter as well, and we deal with not only racism but sexism/misogyny. There are many expectations that Black women uplift Black men because systemic racism in the United States shits on them (and, hey! guess what? We get it, too!). However, what also ends up happening--and we are seeing this with how Ralph Angel interacts with not only his sisters but Darla, too--is that sometimes those Black men don't show up for Black women in the ways Black women show up for Black men. 

I went to a book talk last night at Politics & Prose that was about policing and how it affects Black boys and men. I went because I'm always interested in learning more. But whenever books or articles of this nature are published I'm also always keenly aware how Black girls and women are disproportionately left out of the discussion when we're also affected by policing and mass incarceration (not just because Black fathers and brothers and sons and cousins are affected but because we, Black women, literally are on the receiving end of over policing and being imprisoned at rapid rates). 

I say all this to say, I totally get why Nova, especially, was finally over it with Ralph Angel. She's been there, trying to be mediator between him and Charley, and trying to understand where Ralph Angel is coming from but he really doesn't give two shits. 

It's not just Ralph Angel where the QS is failing in its feminism. It's in every single one of its major male characters. 

It's Ernest, It's Remy, it's Davis, it's Micah, and it's Hollywood.

Ernest supposedly loves all his children equally yet somehow still only manages to leave his beloved farm with the "child who needs it the most" who just so happens to be his only son. 

Hollywood literally stalks Vi, after shattering her world (however inadvertent), then storms off in a huff after he sees Violet out dancing ONCE after lying to her (again) like they're somehow evenly yoked and now has no problem emotionally blackmailing her about her family matters in between pressuring her to pursue a business she doesn't want.

Remy lectures Charley about how to spend her money and how to process grief then acts like a complete child at Charley having to make concessions to seal the mill deal and maneuvers behind her back to help one of her business associates undermine her.

In LA Micah is/was the privileged scion of a basketball superstar who parties with all manner of Beverly Hills glitterati yet in La he's suddenly portrayed as a wide eyed innocent who doesn't understand romantic relationships or driving while black.

The less said about Davis the better.

I could understand if QS intended to interrogate its male characters masculinity, on a deeper level, but (other than RA's occasional shrug at LGBT issues) they're content to peddle their male characters as "good men" who are "relationship goals," without any further contextual analysis.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Dee

[Mozelle]

12 minutes ago, Dee said:

It's not just Ralph Angel where the QS is failing in its feminism. It's in every single one of its major male characters. 

It's Ernest, It's Remy, it's Davis, it's Micah, and it's Hollywood.

Ernest supposedly loves all his children equally yet somehow still only manages to leave his beloved farm with the "child who needs it the most" who just so happens to be his only son. 

Hollywood literally stalks Vi, after shattering her world (however inadvertent), then storms off in a huff after he sees Violet out dancing ONCE after lying to her (again) like they're somehow evenly yoked and now has no problem emotionally blackmailing her about her family matters in between pressuring her to pursue a business she doesn't want.

Remy lectures Charley about how to spend her money and how to process grief then acts like a complete child at Charley having to make concessions to seal the mill deal and maneuvering behind her back to help one of her business associates.

In LA Micah is/was the privileged scion of a basketball superstar who parties with all manner of Beverly Hills glitterati yet in La he's suddenly portrayed as a wide eyed innocent who doesn't understand romantic relationships or driving while black.

The less said about Davis the better.

I could understand if QS intended to interrogate its male characters masculinity, on a deeper level, but (other than RA's occasional shrug at LGBT issues) they're content to peddle their male characters as "good men" who are "relationship goals," without any further contextual analysis.

So, I wouldn't call this a failing of the show's feminism, exactly, but more what you say here--they're not properly interrogating the ways in which the men in the show place expectations (because patriarchy. Because masculinity) on the women. There's a fine line to balance, say, Hollywood in how he supports Vi but also acknowledge that he tends to impose on her in other ways as well. 

[Dee]

44 minutes ago, Mozelle said:

So, I wouldn't call this a failing of the show's feminism, exactly, but more what you say here--they're not properly interrogating the ways in which the men in the show place expectations (because patriarchy. Because masculinity) on the women. There's a fine line to balance, say, Hollywood in how he supports Vi but also acknowledge that he tends to impose on her in other ways as well. 

I referred to it as a failure of the show's feminism because it denies the female characters equity, and, crucial opportunities to address the intersectionality of their lives.

It also requires the female characters to bear responsibility for the male characters flaws without reciprocation or equivocation.

However, you were right that it's also very true to real life, in that regard.

[DearEvette]

8 hours ago, Dee said:

This show receives a lot of undeserved props for it's 'progressive' feminism when, in reality, it's deeply patronizing and defiantly misogynistic.

Sincere question... is the show the same thing as the narrative, though?  I can see why the show itself is getting props for its progressive feminism-- i.e. helmed by women and directed solely by women most of whom are women of color.  Ava is very vocal about how women are never given the opportunity to direct and thus can't build a cv for it to get other jobs in directing.  However all that is meta to the story.

Is the story line that is playing out on the screen really supposed to be a progressive feminist take?  Or it is just supposed to be a family drama with all the sometimes fucked up sometimes glorious dynamics that come with messy families? 

TBH, if I watch the show through a political lens, which I rarely do because... exhausting... but if I did, I'd see it as less a treatise on feminism more an examination of all the social, political & cultural forces that shape our lives and actions and the ways in which we have to navigate around them.

[Dee]

Quote

Sincere question... is the show the same thing as the narrative, though?  I can see why the show itself is getting props for its progressive feminism-- i.e. helmed by women and directed solely by women most of whom are women of color.  Ava is very vocal about how women are never given the opportunity to direct and thus can't build a cv for it to get other jobs in directing.  However all that is meta to the story.

From a behind the scenes perspective, I definitely feel the show is progressively feminist, and sincerely interested in addressing institutional inequality and genuinely raising the bar for everyone involved.

That being said, other shows directed, written, and starring actors of color are not free from political analysis. So why should Queen Sugar be exempt? 

I get that it would be refreshing for shows starring actors of color to 'just' be entertainment but when everything, including the personal, is political it's difficult to separate the two; especially on a show where one of the central characters was expressly created for that very purpose.

The writing on this show is severely lacking. The actors do a fairly good job of selling the material but beautiful cinematography and lovely music cues aren't enough to make up for the serious plotholes and gross misogyny.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Dee

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

That reporter was such an asshole.  If you're trying to get the truth about things, don't be antagonistic towards your interviewee.  I can tell nothing good will come from him, especially since Charley told him she was getting a divorce.

With all the meaningful eye contact going on between him and Charley, I expect him to be putting a move on her eventually. Note how interested he was in the nature of Remy and Charley's relationship. Plus, now he knows Charley will soon be legally available.

[jhlipton]

13 hours ago, Mozelle said:

I'm not understanding your first and second items. The intersection is never less oppressed? As for the second item, I should have been more precise in my language by adding "disproportionately" here: "I'm also always keenly aware how Black girls and women are disproportionately left out of the discussion...".

Sorry for being unclear, but I was agreeing with you -- intersectionality is a problem.  The point was that since Blacks are oppressed and since women are oppressed, it would be highly unusual if Black women were not more oppressed than either group, and oppressed by either/both groups.

American Violet (starring the wonderful Nicole Beharie) is a fictionalized version of what happened to a woman (one of several) caught in a police raid of an entire housing project.  Poor and back -- they had to be dealers!!!  It was a prime example of the mass incarceration of Black women.

9 hours ago, Dee said:

in between pressuring her to pursue a business she doesn't want.

Vi definitely wants the catering business, and it was her idea.  He's certainly messing in it, but he didn't push her to start the business.

4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

With all the meaningful eye contact going on between him and Charley, I expect him to be putting a move on her eventually. Note how interested he was in the nature of Remy and Charley's relationship. Plus, now he knows Charley will soon be legally available.

I almost hope he does.  I would love to see a big black crater where he was once standing!

[Dee]

22 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Vi definitely wants the catering business, and it was her idea.  He's certainly messing in it, but he didn't push her to start the business.

Vi didn't want the catering business until Wood talked her into it. She was fine running the High Yellow, even if he wasn't.

[jhlipton]

I'd have to go back and watch, but from what I remember, she was over-run with this, that and the other at the High Yellow.  Then when she and Wood are lying in bed, he asks what her ream job would be.  That's when the catering business was first mentioned.  He pushed her to think about making it a reality, but I think any good friend ould have pushed her to follow her dream.  It certainly wasn't on the order of pushing her to make a free pie.

[Dee]

The whole thing began with them discussing Wood making a mess in Vi's kitchen and his inability to relax and figure out what he wants to do next.

Wood tells Violet the she is wasting her time working at the restaurant. She responds that what he views as her harboring ill feelings for her job is, to her, really a look of determination from all the effort she put in to earn her recent promotion.

Wood then says that he feels Violet is her 'most happiest' in her kitchen & asks her what her dream looks like, to which she responds that it is 'making people happy with her food,' her pies in particular, which is something she could do via the High Yellow, with more reward and less risk.

But Hollywood doesn't even consider that, because he's too busy projecting his restlessness and feelings of inadequacy onto her.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Dee

[Sheenieb]

I didn't interpret Hollywood as being pushy about the catering company, either. Violet's obviously comfortable at the High Yellow, but she has an opportunity to do better. Moving out of your comfort zone is scary, but I'm thinking back to last season when she was embarrassed when her friends came to the restaurant for lunch and they were all going on about their accomplishments, meanwhile, Violet was still waitressing. A job they all had in their teens. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but it clearly bothered Violet. That's what lit a fire under her ass to aim higher. I think Hollywood wants her to realize her potential. Everyone knows that her pies are the best in the parish, why not monetize it? There's no reason why her baked goods business can't be the next Entenmann's. She has a niece that's a business owner, who has a MBA, and can guide her on what to do. She could probably set up shop at the mill when she inevitably gets a lot of orders. Hollywood planted the seed, but it was still Violet's decision. I'm glad that Wood is supportive. 

[Arcadiasw]

23 hours ago, jhlipton said:

The "choke" was not realistic.  Yes, machines fail from time to time, but if the mill can't handle one hopper of cane, then how is it supposed to handle 20 full harvests?  And was no one watching -- if it started to clog. slow it down and resume at a slower speed.  I get that they needed something to go wrong, but that just didn't work for me.

 

You would think a perfectionist like Charley would've done a dry run to make sure the choke didn't happen, and you're right. That wasn't enough cane for that to happen and so soon with new machines?

 

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:30 PM, Mozelle said:

I'm not certain what the hell RA thought would happen upon sharing that news. Did he think Charley and Nova woulda said, "Oh, OK. The farm is now yours to run...with Charley's money, of course."? He's so impulsive and about proving to others that he's got it under control that he ends up doing the exact opposite. 

 

 

That wouldn't surprise me about RA. I wonder with his, "You living large in L.A." did RA feel jealous or upset Charley wasn't sharing her wealth with him or thought she wasn't giving any back to her family who needs money. Now that she is getting the farm and mill running he may think he's entitled to money that was owed to him because they're family.  It's not really farfetched when you think of celebrities and non celebrities who have family problems and it stems from money.  

 

19 hours ago, Dee said:

 

It's not just Ralph Angel where the QS is failing in its feminism. It's in every single one of its major male characters. 

It's Ernest, It's Remy, it's Davis, it's Micah, and it's Hollywood.

Ernest supposedly loves all his children equally yet somehow still only manages to leave his beloved farm with the "child who needs it the most" who just so happens to be his only son. 

In LA Micah is/was the privileged scion of a basketball superstar who parties with all manner of Beverly Hills glitterati yet in La he's suddenly portrayed as a wide eyed innocent who doesn't understand romantic relationships or driving while black.

 

It's not right but I'm only giving Ernest a pass because of the generation he grew up in. Unless they only had daughters, men usually left the land to the son. Ernest and Vi are siblings and yet it was Ernest's farm not Ernest and Vi's farm. It doesn't appear Ernest was too modern in his thinking to include his daughters. If he was, he would've told his children how their family got the farm or asked for Charley's help sooner.  

Seems they are portraying Micah as the black kid who grew up privilege going to expensive private schools, had white friends and girlfriends and not a lot of black friends therefore he doesn't know how to 'be black' a term I find annoying.  

[Dee]

9 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

 I think Hollywood wants her to realize her potential. 

But that's not Hollywood's decision. Even if Violet was uncomfortable working as 'just' a waitress, she seemed to have renewed vigor after pursuing, and winning, her promotion.

The fact that Wood decided, unilaterally, felt that wasn't enough for Violet that he undermined her confidence and hard work is problematic.

She didn't undercut him, when he was at loose ends after quitting the oil rig, she allowed him the space and opportunity to figure out what he wanted to do. He never grants Vi that same option.

And when Vi wanted to quit after a particularly bad day, he doesn't tell her it would be perfectly fine if she wants to quit. He simply continues pressuring her, however well meaning, to do more.

While on some levels his actions could be construed as admirable, taken in the larger context of their relationship, they're concerning imo. Because just like situation with him baking Vi's pies for his friend in Vi's kitchen; he feels he knows best, emotionally manipulates Vi to get his way, proceeds to make a huge mess and leaves Vi to deal with the fallout.

This pie business is no different.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Dee

[Dee]

3 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

It's not right but I'm only giving Ernest a pass because of the generation he grew up in. Unless they only had daughters, men usually left the land to the son. Ernest and Vi are siblings and yet it was Ernest's farm not Ernest and Vi's farm. It doesn't appear Ernest was too modern in his thinking to include his daughters. If he was, he would've told his children how their family got the farm or asked for Charley's help sooner.  

Very true. But why all the flowery words to/about Charley and Nova in the letter if he doesn't deem them worthy of the land? His sexism even lingers in his original will, which he only had drafted after Ralph Angel was born. It could be that he simply waited until he and True were done having kids to get his affairs in order, but it's awfully convenient that it's not until he has a male heir that he begins to get serious about establishing his 'legacy.'

[mrsbagnet]

43 minutes ago, Dee said:

Very true. But why all the flowery words to/about Charley and Nova in the letter if he doesn't deem them worthy of the land? His sexism even lingers in his original will, which he only had drafted after Ralph Angel was born. It could be that he simply waited until he and True were done having kids to get his affairs in order, but it's awfully convenient that it's not until he has a male heir that he begins to get serious about establishing his 'legacy.'

I can see that being the case. I also think Ernest thought, "Well, Charley and Nova are doing okay, so they don't need the farm." Sometimes more successful siblings get less when inheritance times comes because their parents think they don't need the money. It's as though you're being punished for being successful and having your act together. It's not fair, but unfortunately, some parents think that way.

I might be able to muster some outrage over Hollywood pushing Vi if it weren't for the fact that Vi does the exact same thing to her nieces and nephew. She and Hollywood are both bossy and interfering.

ETA: I really need Darla to break up with Ralph Angel, like yesterday. He's not good for her. I can see him holding her back. I hope, with Charley's help, she can get back the life she once had (minus the overbearing father). I don't think RA is the man to take that journey with her.

Edited July 23, 2017 by mrsbagnet
added comments about Darla