S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen

[VioletNevermind]

Forgive me for saying so, folks, but I think enough of Jazz's personal life has been bared to the public already.  More than enough, actually.  Everything from the size of her penis to a recording of her therapy session.  It makes me beyond uncomfortable and sad for her.  She's so young and naive and her parents are allowing her life to be dissected piece-by-piece for financial gain.  Sure, sure, they're "educating" people.  Sorry, but the train left that station long ago, in my opinion.  I'm starting to feel bad for watching, to be completely honest.

[sATL]

22 minutes ago, surveyandprotect1 said:

 

Jazz attends a charter (public, but more independent) high school. She is not homeschooled.

 

 

hmmm. most charter schools require one to maintain a decent GPA of some kind to stay there. And a tougher curriculum that the other HS - like more APs/IB etc.  Our charter MS/HS also requires parent involvement and the student must be involved in at least one activity.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, sATL said:

hmmm. most charter schools require one to maintain a decent GPA of some kind to stay there. And a tougher curriculum that the other HS - like more APs/IB etc.  Our charter MS/HS also requires parent involvement and the student must be involved in at least one activity.

Is there any reason to believe Jazz is a poor student or isn't involved in activities? I'm not being sarcastic I was just wondering if I missed a scene or two where they were walking about her school performance. 

[sATL]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Is there any reason to believe Jazz is a poor student or isn't involved in activities? I'm not being sarcastic I was just wondering if I missed a scene or two where they were walking about her school performance. 

the lack of friends and having trouble socially  made me wonder about activities. a while back, when her brothers were at home, I though she did soccer.

If one had a couple of AP/IB/honor classes the massive homework wouldn't leave too much time for researching something else - like Drs to do surgery.

Edited July 13, 2017 by sATL

[Scarlett45]

Just now, sATL said:

the lack of friends and having trouble socially  made me wonder about activities. a while back, when her brothers were at home, I though she did soccer.

If one had a couple of AP/IB/honor classes along that wouldn't leave too much time for researching something else - like Drs to do surgery.

Kids can enjoy an activity but not really connect with their peers also participating. 

I think one can excel in AP/IB/honors classes and still have time to research a surgery that will affect them the rest of their life. Kids have time to excel in classes and bully others on social media, hook up, sext etc so I don't blame Jazz for taking her free time to research her health. Her desire to actually research options is the one good thing she's done- even if we can disagree about when should have surgery (I think she should wait until 18 too), at least she's learning something. 

I just don't want to criticize Jazz for things I don't have evidence of, her bad attitude sure, but I don't see a reason to think she's neglecting her school responsibilities. 

[ClareWalks]

I agree with everyone who said Jazz was a real brat this episode. I LOVE Noelle. Plus I got my last laser hair removal treatment yesterday so I was like "ooh girl, I relate." Although I didn't have to do my entire face and neck, that'd be brutal. But I am currently looking at a quartet of burn spots on my skin from where I have gotten a bit too tan, which can cause burns from the laser. The struggle is real. Overall I totally recommend laser for the armpits (it is fairly cheap and dramatically increases quality of life, especially if you're prone to chafing), but I digress. I was also annoyed with how bothered Jazz is by the concept of therapy. Someone needs to explain to her that therapists don't "try to fix you," they give you tools and perspective to help you fix yourself. Frankly Jazz could use a good helping of perspective. 

It was kind of fun to watch the "what's the problem?" look on Jazz and her mom's faces when the doctor said the normal vaginal canal is 4-5 inches deep and Jazz only has two inches to work with. They just seemed like they had no clue what the issue was. Ladies, come on. Get your shit together.

[TomGirl]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Jazz would benefit more from meeting some older transwomen as mentors and being able to learn from their WISDOM than going to drag shows. 

I think she can do (and has done) both.

[Adiba]

I  agree that Jazz acted very bratty and immaturely this episode, but I don't think it's necesaarily from hormone therapy as a sole cause. Teenagers are moody, generally.  However, many parents will call them out on rude behavior-- not saying that Jazz's parents don't do this, it just wasn't evident on the show. Having an issue such as being transgender may exacerbate her moodiness, but it shouldn't give Jazz a free pass to be disrespectful or rude.

And Jazz needs therapy to have the surgery and for helping her deal with the realities of being a very public trans teen in this world. Also, perhaps therapy will help her cope with the real possibility that surgery may not be a panacea for her issues as well as the fact that her surdery may have complications or not turn out exactly as she wanted aesthetically.

[seasons]

I wish that maybe Jazz could see that sometimes therapy can help you just sort things out a little bit for yourself as you speak and unravel. The therapist did say that a nonjudgmental ear such as hers can also help, which was good. I had read that somewhere that this can often be the difference between the sexes - men tend to want to problem solve, while women like to talk things out as it can help us sort things out for ourselves. Example: woman stressed at job. Wants to vent and talk about it. Man listens but says well, just get another job. Woman's friend listens and troubled woman gets to vent and sort things out for herself. Sometimes in this way we can help ourselves. Not to trivialize Jazz's situation with this example. I just so wish that she could feel better and be better for herself. I hope this makes sense.

[Granny58]

8 hours ago, jnymph said:

Back when I was 16 ( a hundred years ago) it was so very uncool to have your parents take you places.    

LOL.  Me too.  Also 100 years ago as a teen I was highly motivated.  I knew a cute boy who could use a ride.  I learned to drive and bought a car!!!!  

[Morgalisa]

My granddaughter doesn't want to drive. She's 16. Must be something in the water.

I feel like I'm watching Jazz unravel. 

In regards to Jazz's weight. She probably takes anti-depressants.  They are notorious for causing carb cravings and weight gain.

Jazz was a very feminine and girly little girl. Sometimes now she sits very boy-like.

[ilovetrashtv]

8 hours ago, jnymph said:

Wow. The times are a changin' I guess !     

Back when I was 16 ( a hundred years ago) it was so very uncool to have your parents take you places.    

Agreed. I was at the DMV the minute it opened on my 16th bday to get my license! But Jazz doesn't really have a social life so that's probably why she doesn't mind. 

[stacyasp]

1 hour ago, Morgalisa said:

My granddaughter doesn't want to drive. She's 16. Must be something in the water.

I feel like I'm watching Jazz unravel. 

In regards to Jazz's weight. She probably takes anti-depressants.  They are notorious for causing carb cravings and weight gain.

Jazz was a very feminine and girly little girl. Sometimes now she sits very boy-like.

She sits,eats and has some boy like mannerisms too

[surveyandprotect1]

A couple responses to a lot of posts about the same topic

 

the mis gendering scene at the hair tech appeared to be real

 

however the scene following this scene outside in the parking lot was a little bit more fabricated. I can bet the segment producer asked "what did you think about that slip up inside?" or something similar and, then recorded the scene and that's what made the show.

 

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on this scene as Jazz blowing the issue out of proportion.

 

The second major scene I see being talked about is the "couch" interview shown after Jazz and Jeanette drive around the neighborhood.

 

you have to remember that couch interviews are filmed several months after priciple photography has wrapped up.

 

when production is filming the couch interviews they are cut all in one day and cut back to back. Production will use the most outrageous cut in the final edit and may be feeding lines or general thoughts into the talent during the interview. I bet that scene was the best take out of 4 or 5 that they cut to get that type of response from Jazz about it being her mother's job to chauffeur her. 

 

Remember this is reality TV. Production did their job because you are all talking about these scenes and the episode finished #23 in the ratings with 982,000 people watching. It beat out some major network shows.

[Granny58]

8 hours ago, stacyasp said:

She sits,eats and has some boy like mannerisms too

I wonder of hormone suppression is not 100%.  

[Impatient]

Jazz has said she gets straight A's, in in student government and involved in an LGBT+ group.  I think she is doing well in school.

[stacyasp]

1 hour ago, Granny58 said:

I wonder of hormone suppression is not 100%.  

This just seems like some horrible science experiment gone wrong

[SunnyBeBe]

I know that Jazz is so animated when she talks about how she IS a girl, but, she does act masculine to me a lot of the time.  As some have stated above.  Her eating manners especially.  I've never known a girl her age to burp loudly at the dinner table.  That is often done by teen boys though.  Also, her unwillingness to talk about her feelings is also a male attribute from my experience. Girls are more prone to want to talk about feelings, whereas guys don't see the point.  I suspect it would infuriate her that she has any male traits, but, to me they are obvious.  I suppose that occurs with most people though.  

I am curious as to how Jazz's parents are going to handle it when they discover that the surgeons are not going to let Jazz's tempter tantrums bully them into a surgery without the proper groundwork being laid.  They don't seem to appreciate that their are rules, policies and guidelines that are in place to protect patients and that Jazz is not the ruler of everything. 

[Impatient]

On July 13, 2017 at 0:21 AM, MegD said:

worry

Not really sure what is going on with this software.  Don't know what the above refers to "megd said: worry"?  So please excuse confusion.

 

i noticed Jazz eats with her mouth open last week.  It was noticeably off-putting then.  This latest view of it was over the top.  She does it in a particular way though.  She seems to think it's cool or attractive.  A demonstration of her lack of self consciousness.  But it's an affectation and needs to unlearn it before it becomes a difficult habit to break.  Greg mentioned it though, and a few other things that they have tried to curtail.  I think maybe Greg and Jeanette do a lot more parenting than we give them credit for.  Their other kids are charming.  Jazz is getting to be insufferable and maybe that is because of the show.

 

as to her weight, it appears to be more problematic in some clothes over others.  I saw pictures on some website recently where she was wearing a fitted crimson red silk ballgown, and looked like a stuffed sausage in that dress.  When she wears shorts and loose tops, not so bad.  When she wears tight jeans with plaid shirts or tee shirts, she looks very fat again.  When you are 16, it isn't that hard to keep the weight off.  It's something someone needs to address with her though, because it will get very much more difficult when she is even only a few years older.

 

jazz's friends are such sweet people in general, but in the world of 16 year old girls?  They are wonderful!  I do remember learning somewhere (magazine interview?  The show?  Don't remember), that Jazz is an A-student, is a student government leader (secretary?  Treasurer?  Don't remember), and in one or two clubs.  I suspect she's very popular.  Even in this episode she was very nice when she made the effort.  When Noelle pointed out the use of the wrong gender identifier wasn't malicious or cruelly meant, Jazz was very reasonable and agreed, "no, no, certainly not.  But why should you or any transgender person have to put up with that?"  And she went on to discuss how lucky she was to pass so easily, but had the micropenis to deal with.  "We all have our own journeys".  I liked her right then.

 

But Jazz is panicking at the idea of sexual intimacy, i think.  I know i was at 16.  For Jazz, it has to be trauma-inducing.  When i was 16, i never once worried about my body being cause for ridicule (well, except i did worry about not being pretty enough, of course).  Never had to be worried about being called a freak.  At the same time, Jazz thinks of herself as a straight girl and is not interested in trans guys.  So she is terrified as well of having to "settle" for a man who is nowhere near as attractive as her dad, or brothers, or her sister's boyfriends....  Something the avoidance of male puberty has made her think she should be able to expect.  She passes. Except, as her grandfather has always said, "she'll always be a girl with a thingee between her legs.  That would bother me.  Just being honest here".  I think that is why she is being so bratty.  It's a show about the new way of dealing with trans issues and yet?  The big issue is still the big issue.  Only now the expectations have been raised....

 

her parents know this and i think that is what they want her in therapy for.  I thought it was a strange coincidence that a cousin should be a gender psychologist.  A professional therapist for transgender patients, and i have to wonder which came first:  did Jeanette "diagnose" Jazz's transgender issues after she became familiar with Cousin Debbie's work?  Or did she become aware of Cousin Debbie's work later?  I wonder if, if Jeanette is a Munchausen by proxy patient, if there wasn't some power of suggestion at work here.

[Nohardfeelings]

I'm usually able to overlook Jazz's behavior  but I agree that this episode....didn't make her come off that nice. Her not wanting to drive didn't come off as that weird to me (though the comment about it being her mom's "job" I could've lived without) I'm only a few years older than Jazz and a lot of my friends, myself included, don't want to learn to drive. It's understandable (in my opinion) but if her mom is tired of driving her around, Jazz will have to figure something out.

[Impatient]

I was also surprised in this episode that Greg is starting to stand up for himself.  As when he said, "i never thought it was ok for Jazz to not go to therapy just because she didn't like it."  Jeanette glossed over it, but i could tell it was a bit of a shock to her that he'd oppose her.  Jazz knows, though, that she can wrap him around her finger more easily than her mom.  

 

Jeanette was getting it with both barrels this week!  Greg pointing out they needed to develop interests in their lives that didn't involve their kids, for the time when they'd be empty -nesters.  And Jazz telling her therapist that her mom was the one who needed therapy.  Jeanette will suddenly have to face the idea that maybe she has overdone things as super-mom.  Maybe by a LOT.

[Impatient]

I have friends with kids in their 20's who still don't know how to drive and it amazes me.  The kids simply let the parent know they will need a ride....  To the doctor, to an appointment, and one of the parents takes off work to accommodate! It is shocking to me!  But strangely common!

 

i didn't get my license till i was 17, but my parents had a business and i was doing deliveries for them the second i got my license.  At all hours of the day and night.  In Chicago.  Alone, as a 17 year old girl.  My parents did not coddle as Jazz's do.  I was spoiled in other ways, but not that one.

Oh one last thing.  When Jazz was with Noelle at the electrolysis place, i noticed Jazz's mustache looked very dark and heavy.  I wonder if she is not using the testosterone cream after all....  It would certainlyaccount for the extra severe brattiness and mood swings.

[stacyasp]

9 minutes ago, Impatient said:

I have friends with kids in their 20's who still don't know how to drive and it amazes me.  The kids simply let the parent know they will need a ride....  To the doctor, to an appointment, and one of the parents takes off work to accommodate! It is shocking to me!  But strangely common!

 

i didn't get my license till i was 17, but my parents had a business and i was doing deliveries for them the second i got my license.  At all hours of the day and night.  In Chicago.  Alone, as a 17 year old girl.  My parents did not coddle as Jazz's do.  I was spoiled in other ways, but not that one.

Oh one last thing.  When Jazz was with Noelle at the electrolysis place, i noticed Jazz's mustache looked very dark and heavy.  I wonder if she is not using the testosterone cream after all....  It would certainlyaccount for the extra severe brattiness and mood swings.

Maybe the mustache is a by product of her ethnicity and nothing to do with male hormones.  

[msrachelj]

On 7/12/2017 at 9:13 PM, TomGirl said:

Jazz turns 16

I love, love, LOVE Noelle.  She is a total sweetheart.  Jazz is lucky to have a friend like her.

I love her too. She seems like such a nice person and great friend. Jazz IS lucky. I hope she keeps this one.

[msrachelj]

On 7/13/2017 at 11:16 AM, Ina123 said:

Loved the scene with Grandma's "helmet hair". It reminded me of the movie "Steel Magnolias" and Sally Field's "helmet hair". LOL.

I have a hard believing that is not a wig. If you look where the "sideburns" should be, there aren't any, which is indicative of alopecia or whatever has caused hair loss.

[Impatient]

I think Grandma Jackie is simply old.  She must be close to 80.   And no 80 year old woman has hair like that.  Jane Fonda is 80 and usually wears a wig, and hair extensions when she doesn't.  So the helmet wig may be the way to deal with an 80 year old scalp when you don't have professional staff on call.

Does any one know about the surgical resection of the colon in this vaginoplasty?  Are there functional issues associated with losing 2 to 4 inches or more, of one's colon?

Oh, one last thing.  The smell doesn't come from fecal matter.  It comes from the sweat and mucous glads in the lining of the intestinal wall.  There are 3 types of sweat glands for example, and the worst smelling are anal (and rectal) glands, in which the entire cells slough off along with the secretion, causing the smell.  So i wasn't really understanding why that would stop after a year.  

[Mrs. Hanson]

23 hours ago, jnymph said:

Wow. The times are a changin' I guess !     

Back when I was 16 ( a hundred years ago) it was so very uncool to have your parents take you places.    

I am 52 and I can still remember counting down to my 16th birthday to get that license!!  My kids, who are almost 20 and just turned 18, were as follows:  first son was in no hurry, second son was ready on his birthday!!!  But there are a lot of kids who don't want to drive these days!!  

New to this forum and I want to say I am kind of relieved to hear the non Jazz love going on.  

On 7/13/2017 at 8:51 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

spoiled behavior does not serve her well and in fact that kind of thing can handicap a child.

This times a thousand.  I am special ed teacher (Jazz is not SPED but there are similiar themes) and let her be her STOP GIVING IN!

On 7/12/2017 at 9:51 PM, jacksgirl said:

So much to comment on.

1. Jeanette needs to get a job, her whole life is Jazz.

2. Whatever discussions go on at therapy need to be between Jazz and her therapist. 

3. Am assuming a letter from a therapist needs to not just be a letter but a recommendation that a patient is emotionally ready for surgery. She is not.

4. Not sure if a drag show is appropriate for a 16 year old. 

5. Due to Jazz' age, maturity, emotional stability and the serious nature of transgender youth, it's time to pull the plug on this show. Give us an update in 2 years.

Regarding #1:  I felt bad when the mom did something with the two older kids and the mom would not shut about Jazz!!!  It was like, "Can we talk about us for maybe a minute?"  

[Granny58]

2 hours ago, Heartismyarmor said:

I'm usually able to overlook Jazz's behavior  but I agree that this episode....didn't make her come off that nice. Her not wanting to drive didn't come off as that weird to me (though the comment about it being her mom's "job" I could've lived without) I'm only a few years older than Jazz and a lot of my friends, myself included, don't want to learn to drive. It's understandable (in my opinion) but if her mom is tired of driving her around, Jazz will have to figure something out.

Interesting.  Why is it that more in your age group don't want to drive, compared to my age group (which is ancient).

[jnymph]

4 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Interesting.  Why is it that more in your age group don't want to drive, compared to my age group (which is ancient).

I'm intrigued and want to know this as well, LOL

Driving was the ultimate golden key to independence when I was in High School.   

[Madding crowd]

Jazz should not be getting therapy from a family member. No reputable therapist would treat a relative, it is not possible to be entirely objective when you know everyone in the family. Plus I have no doubt Jeanette would be grilling 'cousin Debbie' about every word Jazz says. Jazz does need therapy, but not with a family member. Her family brunch scene was bizarre to me; her grandparents bring over tons of food and then the whole family stares at Jazz while she eats? Why would that be a treat for her? I also agree the drag show was not appropriate for her age. Drag shows are great fun but not for teenagers who get embarrassed easily. It is more of Jeanette trying to push Jazz into a role she is not ready for. 

i don't think there is a problem with her weight, or the way she sits; not everyone is tiny and dainty. She does have a spoiled attitude, but part of that comes from living in a fishbowl. If Jeanette would give her a little room to just breathe, her issues might not be so severe. As far as the endless surgery discussions in that family, I think she should wait until she is eighteen. Surgeries come with a lot of complication possibilities and I don't think she is mature enough to make that decision now.

[Muffyn]

1 hour ago, Impatient said:

I think Grandma Jackie is simply old.  She must be close to 80.   And no 80 year old woman has hair like that.  Jane Fonda is 80 and usually wears a wig, and hair extensions when she doesn't.  So the helmet wig may be the way to deal with an 80 year old scalp when you don't have professional staff on call.

Does any one know about the surgical resection of the colon in this vaginoplasty?  Are there functional issues associated with losing 2 to 4 inches or more, of one's colon?

Oh, one last thing.  The smell doesn't come from fecal matter.  It comes from the sweat and mucous glads in the lining of the intestinal wall.  There are 3 types of sweat glands for example, and the worst smelling are anal (and rectal) glands, in which the entire cells slough off along with the secretion, causing the smell.  So i wasn't really understanding why that would stop after a year.  

My aunt is 76 and has incredibly thick hair.  She always did and she simply didn't lose much with age.  My mother always had thinner hair and it is significantly thinner with age.  It's not unheard of for a woman to maintain thick hair, but it less likely.  At the same time, that is some exceptional hair on Jackie.  Her hairstyle fills me with joy.   It's just so over the top but she embraces it.  She's one of those people who picked a style and is not going to change it no matter how out of style it is.  I don't know if it's a wig or if it's hers, but it is both hysterical and glorious to me. 

To your question, the colon is quite long.  Losing a section of the size needed for a colon vaginoplasty would not have any noticeable affect on the ability to process food.  The recovery from intestinal surgery is uncomfortable which is something Jazz would need to be prepared for. 

I don't like when any reality shows decide to show therapy sessions.  Clearly Jazz needs to go to therapy.  It would help her overall to have someone to speak to that cannot share things with others and doesn't already have ideas of what her issues are.  As stated, she needs the sign off for surgery also.  It is not really appropriate for her to see her cousin.  It's not illegal but would you want to run into your therapist at a family event?  Teenagers are already awkward.  Why add to it?  She would probably be best with a therapist who treats teens. 

[Nohardfeelings]

49 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Interesting.  Why is it that more in your age group don't want to drive, compared to my age group (which is ancient).

 

42 minutes ago, jnymph said:

I'm intrigued and want to know this as well, LOL

Driving was the ultimate golden key to independence when I was in High School.   

For my friends and I, it's an anxiety thing you know? Driving can put you under a lot of pressure if you've rarely done it. I try to explain it to my family as "You make a mistake and it can be deadly, that's a lot to handle" so I can understand if that's where Jazz comes from. But I also live in a city where it's more expected for teenagers to take public transportation than drive so it was never a huge issue anyway.

[ClareWalks]

30 minutes ago, Heartismyarmor said:

 

For my friends and I, it's an anxiety thing you know? Driving can put you under a lot of pressure if you've rarely done it. I try to explain it to my family as "You make a mistake and it can be deadly, that's a lot to handle" so I can understand if that's where Jazz comes from. But I also live in a city where it's more expected for teenagers to take public transportation than drive so it was never a huge issue anyway.

As someone who all too often sees teenagers texting, or driving while turned around laughing at their friends in the backseat, I kind of appreciate that there are some teens today who recognize the huge responsibility of operating a one-ton-plus automobile. Of course, I don't wish anxiety on anyone, but I do appreciate the small apprehension. Jazz, on the other hand, just seems to want Momma to haul her around town, also she is just terrible at driving. If I were Jeanette I would have been screaming the whole time, LOL.

[jnymph]

15 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

 Jazz, on the other hand, just seems to want Momma to haul her around town, also she is just terrible at driving. If I were Jeanette I would have been screaming the whole time, LOL.

Jazz was purposely driving horribly, because she didn't want to do it.   Putting her life, her Mothers and OTHERS on the road in danger.   I'd do more than scream at her for that bullshit. 

 

50 minutes ago, Heartismyarmor said:

 

For my friends and I, it's an anxiety thing you know? Driving can put you under a lot of pressure if you've rarely done it. I try to explain it to my family as "You make a mistake and it can be deadly, that's a lot to handle" so I can understand if that's where Jazz comes from. But I also live in a city where it's more expected for teenagers to take public transportation than drive so it was never a huge issue anyway.

Thanks for the feedback.  I can appreciate a teen that would err on the side of caution !   And in this day and age, especially in a larger city where public transport seems more feasible.  

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, Heartismyarmor said:

 

For my friends and I, it's an anxiety thing you know? Driving can put you under a lot of pressure if you've rarely done it. I try to explain it to my family as "You make a mistake and it can be deadly, that's a lot to handle" so I can understand if that's where Jazz comes from. But I also live in a city where it's more expected for teenagers to take public transportation than drive so it was never a huge issue anyway.

Thanks for this insight.  I suspect that's why my son isn't eager to do it (he does it though, just isn't eager to).  I have HORRIBLE driving anxiety after a HORRIBLE incident...and I was the one who taught him.  I tried to keep it under wraps but I guess it must have leaked out.  :-(     On the other hand, I think traffic is much thicker, faster and scarier than when I was 17 (in the 1800s).  

[Impatient]

I started looking into what this colonic vaginoplasty consists of..  

It is NOT a small thing and they really should explain what it entails on this show.

Severe complications only occur in1-5% of the people who have it done, but there are a lot of people traveling to Thailand to have it done (cheaper --- American insurance won't cover it), that might be complicating the picture of the statistical averages.  The woman who is in charge of transgender issues for the ACLU had this procedure done about 7 years ago, and developed severe complications.  Since she published her story on a public website, I imagine it is ok to share it here.  She did not publish it anonymously nd given her professional position, I imagine she would be willing to discuss these issues.  

http://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2010/06/sex_reassignment_surgery_when_things_go_wrong.php

I have to wonder if the doctors have filled the Jenningses in on exactly what happens in this surgery and what could happen if a fistula develops.  Even today it is not easy.  And to be clear, it happens in women as a complication of childbirth as well.  So it is not unique to this SRS situation.  But if we are supposed to appreciate the journey Jazz is on, a full picture should be presented.  ESPECIALLY if Jazz and her parents are aware of all of this, and it is one of the reasons Jazz is being so impossible.  



 

[TomGirl]

3 hours ago, Muffyn said:

My aunt is 76 and has incredibly thick hair.  She always did and she simply didn't lose much with age.  My mother always had thinner hair and it is significantly thinner with age.  It's not unheard of for a woman to maintain thick hair, but it less likely.  At the same time, that is some exceptional hair on Jackie.  Her hairstyle fills me with joy.   It's just so over the top but she embraces it.  She's one of those people who picked a style and is not going to change it no matter how out of style it is.  I don't know if it's a wig or if it's hers, but it is both hysterical and glorious to me. 

My mom died at 92 with a glorious head of thick, snowy white hair.  I agree that Jackie's hairstyle is part of her charm. 

[seasons]

Kicking that soccer ball over and over again in bare feet? - ouch.

[okerry]

5 hours ago, Impatient said:

Does any one know about the surgical resection of the colon in this vaginoplasty?  Are there functional issues associated with losing 2 to 4 inches or more, of one's colon?

And would this involve having a colostomy for a while, while the colon itself heals? Also wondering whether they use the small or large intestine for this.

Crikey. Just say no. No. Plenty of couple use the back door that everyone already has. Seems like that would be better. Just remove the male genitals, make the outside appear female, and go from there rather than tear up your body this way for - what?

4 hours ago, Granny58 said:

Why is it that more in your age group don't want to drive, compared to my age group (which is ancient).

Mine's ancient, too, and yes, driving was very important. Today? Parents are servants, not parents. That's why.

[Scarlett45]

58 minutes ago, okerry said:

And would this involve having a colostomy for a while, while the colon itself heals? Also wondering whether they use the small or large intestine for this.

Crikey. Just say no. No. Plenty of couple use the back door that everyone already has. Seems like that would be better. Just remove the male genitals, make the outside appear female, and go from there rather than tear up your body this way for - what?

Mine's ancient, too, and yes, driving was very important. Today? Parents are servants, not parents. That's why.

I had to laugh hysterically at the use of "back door" and the bolded above.

Edited to Add: is Jazz committed to the idea of having a vaginal canal that's 4-5inches in depth? I know surgical techniques are evolving every day, would she be pleased if they could fashion a labia and clitoris for her, and look into another surgery 10yrs from now when techniques might have improved?

I had a "helicopter parent" A lot of ways but she just worked too many hours to chauffeur me around, and I didn't want to be stuck with our housekeeper (who cared for my grandfather and my sister)- driving was a way to get away from the elderly and disabled people and be FREE. But you do need to practice/practice/practice in order to be good at it. 

 

I understand that Jazz wants to educate people and give a voice to other trans-kids (which are both noble goals), but the state of her gentials are only our business because she "put it out there". I know a transwoman, married to a friend of mine (lesbian relationship) and I wouldn't dream of asking her these questions and I've been to her house! I'm just shaking my head. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Scarlett45
Added to the theory of a different surgical outcome.

[Impatient]

well knowing about the whole picture now, I have to say I am so much more sympathetic to Jazz AND her parents.  

Jazz starting to broach the subject with Cousin Debbie, of her mom not being able to tolerate having a daughter so much different from the way she herself was.  Will she extrapolate from shyness to gender identity?  And if that happens, Will she blame her parents for putting her in this position?  

What if this was all made up?  My brother (now married father of 2) also used to wear my mom's high heels and jewelry when he was 3.  He also played with my dolls.  I was a year and a half older and so of course, he did what I did.  But he grew out of it.  What happens if Jazz decides she's not trans at all, and blames her parents for casting her down a road from which there is no return?  Who wants to be held to a model of behaviour you enjoyed as a toddler?   What if the TV Show makes such a crash all the more traumatic? 

I think I am at the point of a previous poster.  I think it might be time to stop watching.  I wish Jazz every happiness and healthy success.  I hope they are all able to figure things out well with time and a lot of love.  There can be no doubt that they all love each other and I think that will carry them through.  At least I wish that for them.

 

[Muffyn]

28 minutes ago, okerry said:

And would this involve having a colostomy for a while, while the colon itself heals? Also wondering whether they use the small or large intestine for this.

Crikey. Just say no. No. Plenty of couple use the back door that everyone already has. Seems like that would be better. Just remove the male genitals, make the outside appear female, and go from there rather than tear up your body this way for - what?

She would not need a colostomy while the colon heals.  The colon section would be removed; the cut ends are sewn together.  There are many people who have had colon surgeries that do not then have colostomies.  A colostomy is needed when the colon is removed or so much needs to be removed that function is lost.   She would be on a special diet while the colon heals. 

I have a friend who chose to not have a neo vagina created when she had her bottom surgery.  As with anything to do with our bodies, it is a personal choice.  For her, this was the right decision at that time.  I only know because she told me.  Since then, I have not inquired about the state of her genitals.  :-)  It's not my business.

1 hour ago, Impatient said:

I have to wonder if the doctors have filled the Jenningses in on exactly what happens in this surgery and what could happen if a fistula develops.  Even today it is not easy.  And to be clear, it happens in women as a complication of childbirth as well.  So it is not unique to this SRS situation.  But if we are supposed to appreciate the journey Jazz is on, a full picture should be presented.  ESPECIALLY if Jazz and her parents are aware of all of this, and it is one of the reasons Jazz is being so impossible.  
 

We see such a small portion of the meetings with the surgeons.  As one doctor stated, before Jazz would be considered for surgery she has a long way to go.  Therapy is the first part.  The show seems to be pushing this storyline.  In some ways it's a shame because having minimal information leads to more likelihood of people finding all kinds of other information, some good, some not as reliable.  I have accompanied friends to surgical conferences for top surgery and bottom surgery.  It's not 5 minutes of chat and pick your new labia.  There are detailed discussions of functionality, complications, options, full medical history, setting expectations, etc. 

As someone who has personally had more than 50 surgeries due to a genetic disorder not related to gender, I am aware of the complications on many procedures.  Often on TV things are made to look easy, whether it be plastic surgery, weight loss surgery or other procedures.  There is always risk, some minor, some major.  Bottom surgery is complicated and therefore carries risks.  It is up to an individual to decide if that risk is worthwhile for them to feel whole.

I am always careful regarding commenting on other people's surgical choices for things such as this.  When I speak to students about issues regarding sexuality and gender, I always stress that I cannot know what is going on in someone else's brain.  I can only accept what they tell me.  I would hope that Jazz will make the best possible decisions she can with as much knowledge and information as she can gain prior to making that decision.  I doubt she will have surgery immediately.  But the show, understanding that people are interested in this aspect of some transgender people's lives, is making it a major storyline. 

Now when it comes to driving . . . I drove a motorcycle at 16.  I did not learn to drive a car until I was 23 and that was from necessity since I was living in Wisconsin and moved too far from campus to rely on walking, shuttles or public transit.  I have many friends who grew up in the city who have never learned because they didn't feel they needed to. 

[Impatient]

Exactly right Muffyn.  I totally agree.

[surveyandprotect1]

6 hours ago, jnymph said:

Jazz was purposely driving horribly, because she didn't want to do it.   Putting her life, her Mothers and OTHERS on the road in danger.  

A little bit of inside knowledge on the scene - it was filmed on a closed course otherwise known as a gated street. The "other drivers" were production crew. Note when she stops in the middle of the street - driver behind does nothing = camera car providing view of back of Odessey used in the scene. 

[possibilities]

8 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Jazz should not be getting therapy from a family member. No reputable therapist would treat a relative, it is not possible to be entirely objective when you know everyone in the family.

No therapy should be televised, either. I suspect cousin Debbie was not her real therapy, but perhaps she was the a convenient and familiar person to ask to agree to a "show therapy" session for purposes of broadcast. I also suspect that it's not a coincidence that she works in the gender specialty. What I would guess is that, since there was an issue with this in the extended family, she took an interest and pursued it in her career. I know for sure that when someone in my circle develops an issue of some kind, I get interested and want to learn more about it. It's common, it's natural. I don't think it casts any suspicious light on anyone to do this.

I have known girls and women who burp, have shitty manners, have facial hair, sit in a variety of ways, and hate therapy or talking about feelings. Lots of women have dark mustaches; many bleach or get electrolysis or whatever, so bystanders don't notice-- those technologies have been around a long time and were not just invented for trans people. And how someone sits? Are we really going to be so narrowly normative that we all have to sit the same way and have the same temperament? Some people are shy, some are introverts, some have had bad experiences with people that tried to shove bullshit their way so are determined to not share anymore and prefer to solve problems via DIY, some are sick of the exposure to people who don't get it. I think the idea that Jazz's aversion to therapy and other superficial things about her personality are somehow linked to her gender is stereotyping and I'd hate to think that we all have to conform to such narrow rules. Pretty soon we'll be forcing people to transition based on how much they do or don't burp!

I also don't think she's fat. She's not a twig, but the camera adds to her appearance of weight and even with that, she's not plus sized. And she's athletic besides, right? Does she still play soccer? Size is less important than fitness anyway.

I think the magnified exposure of the show makes it easy to overthink every little thing, and hard to avoid doing so, but at the same time, I think it's also at its best to the extent that it raises issues and makes people ask questions. I like that it demystifies some things, and challenges others. The way we seem to care so much what gender someone is, and the cascade of expectation and judgments and prescriptions and anxieties that follow that, to me is the most amazing thing about the entire subject. I mean, it seems like such a big deal for little to no reason. Not that it isn't important to people to be who they are, but the way everyone else gets involved in it, and how it seems to matter so much to the entire world what some individual is doing or not doing about their gender... why is that?? It strikes me as one of the more insane distractions we have concocted as a people. One thing Jazz keeps saying that I think no one on the show or off has ever answered is: why does it matter so much? I wish I could answer that for her. I really think it's an important question and all the answers I've ever heard seem utterly ridiculous to me.

She and her family are being very brave to talk about her 2 inch penis and all the other stuff they've talked about. It's annoying when she's bratty, but at the same time, I really admire her strength in the face of everything the world cooks up that might have crushed her spirit, and I can easily imagine that to withstand it, she has had to develop a kind of resistance that makes it hard to yield when yielding is called for. There are a lot of brats on the planet who have less to defend, and who are less thoughtful than she is in other ways. I'm not excusing her or anyone else, but I just think none of us are perfect, and on balance, Jazz comes across as a teenager, not a monster. I think her parents are imperfect but also brave-- and they are doing so much better of a job than so many others, I give them all a lot of credit.

And yes, Noelle and Grandma are the bomb.

P.S. In case it isn't clear, I do think Jazz needs therapy. I just don't think her resistance to it is about her hormones or her genes or her gender.

[TomGirl]

40 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Pretty soon we'll be forcing people to transition based on how much they do or don't burp!

Kudos to your entire post, some of the most rational and articulate comments I've seen yet about this show.  Thank you!!

[Scarlett45]

@possibilities I agree with everything you've said. 

[stacyasp]

Jazz's expectations really are too high, it just seems all about the aesthetics, she wants to pass and I don't think with her exposure that's really ever going to happen

[okerry]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Not that it isn't important to people to be who they are, but the way everyone else gets involved in it, and how it seems to matter so much to the entire world what some individual is doing or not doing about their gender... why is that?? It strikes me as one of the more insane distractions we have concocted as a people. One thing Jazz keeps saying that I think no one on the show or off has ever answered is: why does it matter so much? I wish I could answer that for her. I really think it's an important question and all the answers I've ever heard seem utterly ridiculous to me.

Because sex. That's why. Sex is vitally important to human beings and not just as a frivolous distraction. If we were not highly interested in sex, we would have died out as a species long ago and none of of would be here now.

That's why finding mates is so extremely important to humans. Knowing how and where to find them - and recognize them - is extremely important, again so we don't die out as a species. Not much else matters if we do, lol.

That's why people are so very weirded out by someone who has the secondary characteristics of one sex but the primary characteristics of the other. That is seen as deceptive and may well cause someone to waste valuable reproductive time pursuing a "mate" who already knows they cannot be a mate for this person at all - not for sex (because the pursuer would not be attracted) and not for reproducing (because the one being pursued is not capable of it.)

It's entirely a primal response guided by one of the most powerful drives in nature: The drive to mate and reproduce. Look, I'm just the messenger here. It's not "hate." It's just our primal nature.

[KBrownie]

33 minutes ago, okerry said:

Because sex. That's why. Sex is vitally important to human beings and not just as a frivolous distraction. If we were not highly interested in sex, we would have died out as a species long ago and none of of would be here now.

That's why finding mates is so extremely important to humans. Knowing how and where to find them - and recognize them - is extremely important, again so we don't die out as a species. Not much else matters if we do, lol.

That's why people are so very weirded out by someone who has the secondary characteristics of one sex but the primary characteristics of the other. That is seen as deceptive and may well cause someone to waste valuable reproductive time pursuing a "mate" who already knows they cannot be a mate for this person at all - not for sex (because the pursuer would not be attracted) and not for reproducing (because the one being pursued is not capable of it.)

It's entirely a primal response guided by one of the most powerful drives in nature: The drive to mate and reproduce. Look, I'm just the messenger here. It's not "hate." It's just our primal nature.

And this stuff obviously matters plenty to Jazz, otherwise she wouldn't spend so much time on it.  She really needs to wait a few years and then go through this process of considering surgery again.  She doesn't know what she wants and doesn't really understand the options as it pertains to intercourse and the potential irreversible surgery could end up not being what she truly wants once she matures and knows a bit more about the world than the bubble she lives in.

Jazz wants what she thinks all women want or behave.  Which to her is long hair, boobs, and a "pretty vagina," but most women know and understand that there is much more to being a woman than that.  She needs to discover what being a woman means to her because it's not the same formula for every woman like she seems to think it is.  She also needs a lot of therapy because she can't spend the rest of her life blaming her mother for why she feels so unhappy.  She has them pretty snowed I think.  She knows just the language to use to get them to back off when she acts out and it comes off as manipulative. She knows how to use her parents' legitimate concern for her well-being as a way to excuse her objectionable behavior. Getting bottom surgery is not going to magically fix all her problems like she seems to think.  She acts as if poof! she gets the surgery and she'll have lots of friends and lots of dates and she'll magically be strong woman who loves herself.  She can get the surgery, but all that other stuff will still be there, which is why the therapy is important, but no on one can tell her anything.  Her parents (and therapists) have the power to hold off for a couple of years at least, and they need to hold fast.  It becomes clearer and clearer each week, despite it being reality TV (you can't fake her attitude. She isn't an actress), she isn't mature enough for  the surgery.

I don't care, Jazz is a know it all who doesn't know as much as she think she does.  Not everything can be hand waved away with "Oh, she's just a teen" or "you don't understand how reality TV works"  and as long as they keep putting themselves out there, I'm gong to call it like I see it.  They can pull the plug at any time if they feel the risk to Jazz is not worth whatever they think this TV show is doing for the public or themselves.  I personally think they should.  Jazz has had excuses made for her behavior and it has led to the bratty and defiant behavior she now displays.  It's not quirky or "precocious" as her grandfather put it.    

Edited July 15, 2017 by KBrownie