The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[Sew Sumi]

8k in assets? Really now? 

Shysters.

[crazy8s]

30 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I wonder what sort of creative bean counting Pa Forsyth is doing with that camp. 100k doesn't seem like enough to maintain that huge property, the cabins, equipment, animals and a salary for themselves. I'm assuming they exploit their kids for free labor, but you still need money to live.

the tax forms claim ma and pa forsyth take no salary and both work 40hrs per week. Ausitn as VP works at the camp 10hrs a week, no salary and Bobby Ballinger on the board of directors works 5hrs a week at the camp for no salary.

again, this was a 2018 return.

I felt it not right to post a link to the return here, but it is easy to find if you look up the CPA

Edited May 30, 2020 by crazy8s

[Sew Sumi]

Is the camp a non-profit? It sure sounds like that's what they're trying to do.

[Churchhoney]

10 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Is the camp a non-profit? It sure sounds like that's what they're trying to do.

Well, according to what's said online about the CPA, he works almost entirely for religious nonprofits. (the stuff I posted on the previous page).... The camp is one they list.

I don't see, at all, how the Duggs fit into that category (except for that bible study nonprofit -- was it Jed!'s, I guess?)  So that's the first thing I found odd and suspicious. Also notable, perhaps, is that not all their enterprises as listed with this guy....So maybe some can't be shoehorned into the definition, but others can? 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Churchhoney

[crazy8s]

11 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, according to what's said online about the CPA, he works almost entirely for religious nonprofits. (the stuff I posted on the previous page).... The camp is one they list.

I don't see, at all, how the Duggs fit into that category (except for that bible study nonprofit -- was it Jed!'s, I guess?)  So that's the first thing I found odd and suspicious. Also notable, perhaps, is that not all their enterprises as listed with this guy....So maybe some can't be shoehorned into the definition, but others can? 

of the duggar LLCs that do not list this guy asthe tax preparer.

Jed's thomas lakeview bible class

Jeer's learn to fly here

Josiah's Milago designs 

Jd's Mediccorps

and Jana's and the 2 that are in Anna's name

 

that leaves about 10 that list Jimmy Burns as tax preparer. including Jason's Build Master construction, Duggar Aviation, Deanna's LLC Happy Hearts, Jeers -Commercial Space, JB's Duggar Properties, The Mount Kessler RV Resort etc

[fonfereksglen]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I wonder what sort of creative bean counting Pa Forsyth is doing with that camp. 100k doesn't seem like enough to maintain that huge property, the cabins, equipment, animals and a salary for themselves. I'm assuming they exploit their kids for free labor, but you still need money to live.

This is an LLC?  

From our experience, sounds legit and the accountant knows his stuff.  The only thing I will say is with an LLC, you take a draw not a salary.  Not really comfortable to delve or comment more deeply.  

[JoanArc]

*DHS server begins emitting smoke*

[crazy8s]

15 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

This is an LLC?  

From our experience, sounds legit and the accountant knows his stuff.  The only thing I will say is with an LLC, you take a draw not a salary.  Not really comfortable to delve or comment more deeply.  

not an LLC -  fort rock filed as a Christian Non Profit organization with a 990 form

they had and LLC before 2017 - Jimmy Burns was a director. but it is not current.

the Christian Non Profit - from the tax filing says it was founded in 2017

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by crazy8s

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, crazy8s said:

of the duggar LLCs that do not list this guy asthe tax preparer.

Jed's thomas lakeview bible class

Jeer's learn to fly here

Josiah's Milago designs 

Jd's Mediccorps

and Jana's and the 2 that are in Anna's name

 

that leaves about 10 that list Jimmy Burns as tax preparer. including Jason's Build Master construction, Duggar Aviation, Deanna's LLC Happy Hearts, Jeers -Commercial Space, JB's Duggar Properties, The Mount Kessler RV Resort etc

So Jed!'s bible class is not a religious nonprofit.....But Jason's construction company and the real estate enterprises are. Got it. Ha! 

Nonsense, craziness and confusion, thy names are "Duggar." 

Why would you use a CPA who specializes in religious nonprofits for your property business!!?? 

But why as a CPA would you lie and advertise yourself as specializing in nonprofits when you apparently don't??

The only thing I'm sure about is that, whatever's actually going on, Jim Bob is certain it's getting him more money. 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Churchhoney

[fonfereksglen]

2 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

not an LLC -  fort rock filed as a Christian Non Profit organization with a 990 form

OK.   I am obviously not an accountant, but what I learned starting in 1998 with my husband's LLC, was that small businesses need good accountants.  In particular, listing everything used for the business on a depreciation schedule!  And keeping precise records.  In particular, only from what I read here, the assets number made sense.  The numbers on a tax return and the numbers in a bank account don't  need to match.  Tax law regarding business is interesting.

I'll bow out now and please continue to snark away. 

 

[Sew Sumi]

Not understanding the CPA for Duggar Aviation either.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[crazy8s]

3 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

OK.   I am obviously not an accountant, but what I learned starting in 1998 with my husband's LLC, was that small businesses need good accountants.  In particular, listing everything used for the business on a depreciation schedule!  And keeping precise records.  In particular, only from what I read here, the assets number made sense.  The numbers on a tax return and the numbers in a bank account don't  need to match.  Tax law regarding business is interesting.

I'll bow out now and please continue to snark away. 

 

it was a 23 page tax thing and I don't pretend to understand any of it. 

I just looked back when you mentioned LLC and realized it wasn't and the saw the founded in 2017 date.

you probably would understand the info far more than I do

[Sew Sumi]

I guess Family Camp was a for-profit enterprise before 2017? 

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

I guess Family Camp was a for-profit enterprise before 2017? 

I truly don’t understand how Fort Rock can be considered “non profit.”

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I truly don’t understand how Fort Rock can be considered “non profit.”

Maybe by "nonprofit" this CPA just means "unsuccessful." 

[crazy8s]

the Duggar family sure has been busy in the real estate business during a pandemic.

search today has a new record of a house and land James Andrew Duggar purchased at an auction. there is the 2+ acre lot with a house and then a separate parcel he also purchased that is an access road to the property.

Filed 5/1/2020

Sold 4/16/2020

Price $72,988

Grantor FEDERAL HOME LOAN MORTGAGE CORPORATION

Grantee DUGGAR, JAMES ANDREW

 Deed Type SWD(SPECIAL WARRANTY DEED

 

Parcel Number:16-77998-001

County Name:Benton County

Property Address:DUGGAR, JAMES ANDREW
8340 TRAFALGAR RD
BELLA VISTA, AR
 

Mailing Address:DUGGAR, JAMES ANDREW
548 ARBOR ACRES AVE
SPRINGDALE AR 72762

Collector's Mailing Address :FEDERAL HOME LOAN MORTGAGE CORPORATION
8200 JONES BRANCH RD
MCLEAN, VA 22102-3110

Total Acres:2.65

Edited June 1, 2020 by crazy8s

[Sew Sumi]

At least he appears to have a mortgage. No way does an 18 year old have 70 grand laying around.

[Future Cat Lady]

7 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

At least he appears to have a mortgage. No way does an 18 year old have 70 grand laying around.

How can an 18 year old with no job history get a bank loan?

[Sew Sumi]

3 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

How can an 18 year old with no job history get a bank loan?

I imagine Boob co-signed.

[crazy8s]

same way Jason bought and flipped a house when he was 16 or 17.

daddy co signed or bankrolled it

oh and the property pics are great- dumpy house overlooking a storage/RV lot

[Future Cat Lady]

2 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I imagine Boob co-signed.

And gave him the cash 😉

Edited June 1, 2020 by Future Cat Lady

[Sew Sumi]

2 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

And gave him the cash 😉

James may have stashed up a few grand from show appearances when he was younger. What other sources of income could this kid have? We haven't heard of him doing construction or working at Jed's! car lot.

[BitterApple]

It seems like all the Duggar properties are in the dredges. TTH and Pool House next to the dump, Mold House behind the freeway, and now this place with its' glorious view of storage sheds. I don't know much about Arkansas real estate but it seems like nothing they buy is in a desirable area.

[crazy8s]

I have been bored - pandemic, rainy weather, broke my hand etc.

so started looking up Duggar properties the other day. all public info and easy to find.

It is amazing how much they own under various names and in different counties.

and that tom joseph real estate guy connected to selling/listing their properties almost every time. along with the switch in the LLC's to list the same tax preparer, it has been interestingly entertaining

 

[Churchhoney]

27 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

How can an 18 year old with no job history get a bank loan?

When he's Jim Bob's financial sock puppet? 😁

[JoanArc]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

It seems like all the Duggar properties are in the dredges. TTH and Pool House next to the dump, Mold House behind the freeway, and now this place with its' glorious view of storage sheds. I don't know much about Arkansas real estate but it seems like nothing they buy is in a desirable area.

 I mean, it’s not like they have taste. 

[GeeGolly]

Jessa lives next to a highway, the TTH is next to a dump and JD's home seems to be part of a small industrial park. Buying a house that hangs over the edge of a parking lot seems to be very Duggar.

[Churchhoney]

6 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Jessa lives next to a highway, the TTH is next to a dump and JD's home seems to be part of a small industrial park. Buying a house that hangs over the edge of a parking lot seems to be very Duggar.

Same approach JB and M have to raising up children. The point is to have quantity, not quality. 😈

[mimionthebeach]

On 6/1/2020 at 6:39 PM, Sew Sumi said:

James may have stashed up a few grand from show appearances when he was younger. What other sources of income could this kid have? We haven't heard of him doing construction or working at Jed's! car lot.

I seriously doubt that any of the kids, even the boys, have received cash from appearances on the show. Pops is bankrolling all these property purchases. If the name on the deed means anything, it will be the spawn's leg up and payment in full for their part in the tv ministry. Most likely it's for tax purposes and the management will never leave Jim Bob's greedy, grasping hands. All sons will remain non-voting members of The Firm.

[Temperance]

It's been hinted that the new season of Counting On could feature a new courtship. Maybe, maybe not.

So FJ is trying to figure out who the new courtship could be and they're talking about one of the -iah twins courting someone in Nakatsu family.

I had never heard of the Nakatsu family, but I've skimmed their whole blog. The Nakatsu family is headed by Kory Nakatsu (man). He lives with his second wife Kerry and his two girls Katey and Lauren. For a long time, they were more mainstream Christian maybe fundie-lite. They joined IBLP,  possibily thanks to seeing the Duggars on television. The blog features pictures of them doing normal things like playing softball and then with an increasing list of famous fundies. They visited AR and saw Josh running the carlot before he moved to Maryland. The daughters are Bright Lights and took pictures with Sarah Mally, now Sarah Hamilton (the Sarah who just got married at 41). (not Sarah Maxwell). Oldest daughter Katey attended Journey to the Heart in 2013 and was a group photo with Bill Gothard.  They hung out with the Bates family. They go to Big Sandy Conferences. They seem closest to the Wallers and Burnetts (Abbie Duggar's family). 

FJ thinks it's the oldest daughter Katey who is courting one of the twins possibly Jed!. I think she'd be a better match for Jeremiah as she is a pilot and seems likely to be less kool-aid drunk.  She turns 22 at the end of July so she's a few months older than the -iah twins, but I don't think that would matter.  The biggest reason it might be her is that the family lives in Arizona and Jed/Jer met JinJer in Arizona with JB. 

They still seem relatively mainstream for the Duggars. Her sister is about 4.5 years younger than her. It's a small family, where the girls are doted on and they love animals. I can't imagine going from that to being constantly pregnant for Jesus. Her family came into IBLP rather late too.  

Of course this could just be rumor. The trip to Arizona makes sense in this context though.  It's been almost 2 years since JD announced his courtship with Abbie. 

[madpsych78]

Checked out their blog...interestingly the only Duggar who appeared in their pictures was JD. As well as Nathan Bates and the Wallers.

[GeeGolly]

I imagine it would be much harder for a Fundy female like Marjorie or the two Nakatsu girls mentioned above, to marry an uber Fundy male, than it would be for an uber Fundy female to marry a less Fundy male. 

Which leads my darting mind to another thought. Do more females than males, leave the uber Fundy culture?

[NotthebadVictoria]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

 

Which leads my darting mind to another thought. Do more females than males, leave the uber Fundy culture?

It would make sense to me if it happened this way. Women have everything to gain by leaving and men have everything to lose by leaving. They are worshiped, adored and the ultimate authority (except Bin). 

[rue721]

Well, that’s the point of keeping women barefoot and pregnant, right? To trap them while they’re young, so that even as they get old and wise enough to become disillusioned, they won’t be able to leave.

I think it’s easy for a young woman to stay  in the cult and hard for a young man to, because a young woman is pressured to get married and have baby after baby, which they are usually pretty equipped to do, whereas a young man is pressured to earn money (somehow) and preach (about who knows what), which they are usually not equipped to do successfully. The other women also probably appreciate a new woman’s help and will integrate her into the group, whereas the younger men are pitted against the older men in a more zero-sum sort of situation. 
 

So I think that many young women probably slide further and further into the cult, until there’s no real feasible way out (like Anna, for example. Or maybe like Nurie, eventually), whereas I think young men struggle to stay in it (like Tim).
 

I would honestly expect a fair number of young men to wash out, and so more women then men to be in the group as a whole. 

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I imagine it would be much harder for a Fundy female like Marjorie or the two Nakatsu girls mentioned above, to marry an uber Fundy male, than it would be for an uber Fundy female to marry a less Fundy male. 

Which leads my darting mind to another thought. Do more females than males, leave the uber Fundy culture?

Looking at the Duggar kid marriages, the girls all married men from non Gothard families while the boys all seem to find brides from daddy's friends.  But, I do think this is because with each of his son's marriages he is bringing in another family into JB's fold.  A daughter leaves her family, but a son is easier to stay under JB's umbrella of control.  

Of course, Josh doesn't fit into this, but those were special circumstances.  JB needed a woman dumb enough to overlook all of Josh's faults and want to keep Josh on the straight and narrow.  

[Temperance]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Looking at the Duggar kid marriages, the girls all married men from non Gothard families while the boys all seem to find brides from daddy's friends.  But, I do think this is because with each of his son's marriages he is bringing in another family into JB's fold.  A daughter leaves her family, but a son is easier to stay under JB's umbrella of control.  

Of course, Josh doesn't fit into this, but those were special circumstances.  JB needed a woman dumb enough to overlook all of Josh's faults and want to keep Josh on the straight and narrow.  

Technically Joy's husband is IBLP. Also Josh does fit in; his wife is also IBLP. Anna wasn't a random woman; she was a Godly young woman like the rest of the daughters-in-law. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Temperance

[Churchhoney]

11 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

 

Which leads my darting mind to another thought. Do more females than males, leave the uber Fundy culture?

There's not a lot of data on who's currently leaving and I haven't ever seen a piece of research that touches on the gender makeup -- (probably because the numbers here are just too small to allow for conclusions about that?)

However, there always has been and is now quite a bit of data about whether more women or more men consider themselves affiliated with various religions. 

And in Christian churches across the board, more women than men say they're affiliated with the church, more women say they attend the church regularly, more women say they pray regularly, and more women say that their church and their religion are very important to them. Data also shows that women who don't work outside the home are much more likely to be closely involved with their church than women who do work outside the home.

So even if it is true that today's women are leaving evangelical churches at a greater rate than men are (and I don't know if there's any data at all on that....) .-- since the women have long outnumbered the men to begin with, it'd take awhile for them to close the gap! 

(In some other religions, notably Islam and Judaism, men are more likely to be more closely affiliated with their religion in various ways than women.) 

There are a lot of theories about this, but most scholars of religion mostly say that they can't make any strong overarching conclusions about the gender differences....

One overall theory about religious adherence holds that we're more likely to strongly embrace a religion that makes a lot of demands on us as the price of really belonging to the faith.............I wonder if that wouldn't partly account for why more women affiliate strongly with Christian churches -- since women in them get put in their place and told exactly what to wear and what to say and who to kowtow to and often are blamed for everything while the men have pretty much free rein, by contrast! 

 

 

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

There's not a lot of data on who's currently leaving and I haven't ever seen a piece of research that touches on the gender makeup -- (probably because the numbers here are just too small to allow for conclusions about that?)

However, there always has been and is now quite a bit of data about whether more women or more men consider themselves affiliated with various religions. 

And in Christian churches across the board, more women than men say they're affiliated with the church, more women say they attend the church regularly, more women say they pray regularly, and more women say that their church and their religion are very important to them. Data also shows that women who don't work outside the home are much more likely to be closely involved with their church than women who do work outside the home.

So even if it is true that today's women are leaving evangelical churches at a greater rate than men are (and I don't know if there's any data at all on that....) .-- since the women have long outnumbered the men to begin with, it'd take awhile for them to close the gap! 

(In some other religions, notably Islam and Judaism, men are more likely to be more closely affiliated with their religion in various ways than women.) 

There are a lot of theories about this, but most scholars of religion mostly say that they can't make any strong overarching conclusions about the gender differences....

One overall theory about religious adherence holds that we're more likely to strongly embrace a religion that makes a lot of demands on us as the price of really belonging to the faith.............I wonder if that wouldn't partly account for why more women affiliate strongly with Christian churches -- since women in them get put in their place and told exactly what to wear and what to say and who to kowtow to and often are blamed for everything while the men have pretty much free rein, by contrast! 

None of the Duggar brides are women who've freely chosen to attend church more and even if they were, more women go to church among all denominations fundie, nonfundie, liberal etc. It has nothing to do with the Duggar marriage system.

The Duggar brides are all young women who were mostly brought up in IBLP. Kendra is the only one without an IBLP connection and she was the youngest bride and definitely brought up fundie. These young women didn't chose to be fundies; they were led into by their fundie parents, both mom and dads.

JB seems to be more tolerant of his girls marrying guys like Derick, Jeremy, etc. probably because he thought/thinks they have better financial prospects than most of the IBLP crowd who are more like his own sons or Tim Rod.  Guys, like Austin, who both make money and are IBLP are rare and the ideal catch.  He wants very sheltered brides, who know what they're getting into, for his sons. 

[GeeGolly]

Unlike many posters, I don't think JB had much say in who any of his kids married. The only one he seemed to object to was Ben. I'm thinking Ben is looking like a great SIL to JB now, maybe only second to Austin.

I think the reason the Duggar guys are married to full-on Fundy wives is because Fundy-lites are less apt to marry them.

[doodlebug]

9 hours ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

It would make sense to me if it happened this way. Women have everything to gain by leaving and men have everything to lose by leaving. They are worshiped, adored and the ultimate authority (except Bin). 

While women have more to gain by leaving, they're also less equipped to do so.  We've seen the poor quality education that all IBLP kids get and that the girls are supposed to start looking for a husband as soon as she hits 18 or so.  And, as soon as she is married, she has to start popping out babies as quickly as possible.  That, along with their sheltered upbringing where they are not permitted to go anywhere alone and repeatedly warned about the evils of the outside world; makes women even less capable of leaving than the men.  Men are allowed some freedom and many of them learn a trade or are otherwise capable of supporting themselves.

I suppose it is because fundie women are more likely to be unhappy in the cult that the system has been rigged to make it more difficult for them to leave.

[Temperance]

They may not be directly arranged, but certainly all of the kids seem to marry from a dating pool that Dad approves. The boys have yet to marry a woman who wasn't a complete fundie, moste of them with IBLP connections. And the Duggars have bragged for years about the fact that Dad has to approve of a future-son-in-law/any man involved with his daughters.  So if it's directly arranged, it's somewhat arranged. 

I've known lots of fundies and one of the big defining characteristics is having children that they need to be in control even into adulthood. My belief from experience is never underestimate the fundie parents' need for control. It's certainly stronger than love if they do love the kids. I've never believed JB and Michelle really loved the kids, and yet they fooled many people into thinking they do. 

[GeeGolly]

23 minutes ago, Temperance said:

They may not be directly arranged, but certainly all of the kids seem to marry from a dating pool that Dad approves. The boys have yet to marry a woman who wasn't a complete fundie, moste of them with IBLP connections. And the Duggars have bragged for years about the fact that Dad has to approve of a future-son-in-law/any man involved with his daughters.  So if it's directly arranged, it's somewhat arranged. 

I've known lots of fundies and one of the big defining characteristics is having children that they need to be in control even into adulthood. My belief from experience is never underestimate the fundie parents' need for control. It's certainly stronger than love if they do love the kids. I've never believed JB and Michelle really loved the kids, and yet they fooled many people into thinking they do. 

Again, I'm often the lone wolf with this. I believe JB has to give his stamp of approval, which he does after asking Michelle, but I don't think he actively finds or steers his kids toward anyone. Maybe with the exception of Derick, who reached out to JB directly as a prayer partner. Derick, I believe is the only one JB had any hand in suggesting. 

Of course the way JB & M raised their children influenced who the kids courted, due to their beliefs and their circle of friends. But again, I don't think any of the spouses were chosen.

I also believe JB and even Michelle, love their kids. I'll go one farther and say they even like a few of them too. I also think Michelle wields all the power in that family.

My opinions are based on years of intimately working with folks and observing and hearing about different family dynamics, as well as watching the Duggar shows and reading posts by everyone on here. And while I've never worked with Fundies, in the Gothard extreme, I've worked with many folks whose religion had negative impacts on their lives. And with folks where authoritarian parenting was part of the problem.

I do believe that by now, JB & M are aware of some of the ways their beliefs negatively affected their parenting, which in turn negatively affected their kids. But I don't think their intent was to control their kids for the sake of controlling their kids. I think they were, and for the most part still are, following some crazy Gothard made beliefs, in the name of Christianity. 

When the Duggars say the "do things a little different" its true. But much of their family dynamic is very typical. And one of the things we focus on a lot on here is if the kids will break away, yet most kids continue the follow, and/or identify as, the religion they were raised in.

Its been suggested that I normalize some of the Duggar behaviors. However some of their behaviors are just that.

 

[NotthebadVictoria]

14 hours ago, doodlebug said:

While women have more to gain by leaving, they're also less equipped to do so.  We've seen the poor quality education that all IBLP kids get and that the girls are supposed to start looking for a husband as soon as she hits 18 or so.  And, as soon as she is married, she has to start popping out babies as quickly as possible.  That, along with their sheltered upbringing where they are not permitted to go anywhere alone and repeatedly warned about the evils of the outside world; makes women even less capable of leaving than the men.  Men are allowed some freedom and many of them learn a trade or are otherwise capable of supporting themselves.

I suppose it is because fundie women are more likely to be unhappy in the cult that the system has been rigged to make it more difficult for them to leave.

That is a great point! 

[Zella]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Again, I'm often the lone wolf with this. I believe JB has to give his stamp of approval, which he does after asking Michelle, but I don't think he actively finds or steers his kids toward anyone. Maybe with the exception of Derick, who reached out to JB directly as a prayer partner. Derick, I believe is the only one JB had any hand in suggesting. 

Of course the way JB & M raised their children influenced who the kids courted, due to their beliefs and their circle of friends. But again, I don't think any of the spouses were chosen.

I also believe JB and even Michelle, love their kids. I'll go one farther and say they even like a few of them too. I also think Michelle wields all the power in that family.

My opinions are based on years of intimately working with folks and observing and hearing about different family dynamics, as well as watching the Duggar shows and reading posts by everyone on here. And while I've never worked with Fundies, in the Gothard extreme, I've worked with many folks whose religion had negative impacts on their lives. And with folks where authoritarian parenting was part of the problem.

I do believe that by now, JB & M are aware of some of the ways their beliefs negatively affected their parenting, which in turn negatively affected their kids. But I don't think their intent was to control their kids for the sake of controlling their kids. I think they were, and for the most part still are, following some crazy Gothard made beliefs, in the name of Christianity. 

When the Duggars say the "do things a little different" its true. But much of their family dynamic is very typical. And one of the things we focus on a lot on here is if the kids will break away, yet most kids continue the follow, and/or identify as, the religion they were raised in.

Its been suggested that I normalize some of the Duggar behaviors. However some of their behaviors are just that.

 

Isn't there a distinction to be made between common and normal, though? I agree a lot of people beyond the Duggars have dysfunctional family dynamics and they don't have to be religious to do so, but just because it is a common-enough occurrence doesn't make it normal or healthy, in my opinion. 

Admittedly I'm approaching this from a linguistic standpoint rather than a therapeutic one. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

52 minutes ago, Zella said:

Isn't there a distinction to be made between common and normal, though? I agree a lot of people beyond the Duggars have dysfunctional family dynamics and they don't have to be religious to do so, but just because it is a common-enough occurrence doesn't make it normal or healthy, in my opinion. 

Admittedly I'm approaching this from a linguistic standpoint rather than a therapeutic one. 

I very rarely use the word normal and prefer the word typical. Common works too. To be honest I don't equate the definitions of normal, typical or common with the definitions of healthy or unhealthy. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by GeeGolly

[Zella]

33 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I very rarely use the word normal and prefer the word typical. Common works too. To be honest I don't equate the definitions of normal, typical or common with the definitions of healthy or unhealthy. 

That's fair enough and makes sense! 

[Temperance]

11 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Again, I'm often the lone wolf with this. I believe JB has to give his stamp of approval, which he does after asking Michelle, but I don't think he actively finds or steers his kids toward anyone. Maybe with the exception of Derick, who reached out to JB directly as a prayer partner. Derick, I believe is the only one JB had any hand in suggesting. 

Of course the way JB & M raised their children influenced who the kids courted, due to their beliefs and their circle of friends. But again, I don't think any of the spouses were chosen.

I also believe JB and even Michelle, love their kids. I'll go one farther and say they even like a few of them too. I also think Michelle wields all the power in that family.

My opinions are based on years of intimately working with folks and observing and hearing about different family dynamics, as well as watching the Duggar shows and reading posts by everyone on here. And while I've never worked with Fundies, in the Gothard extreme, I've worked with many folks whose religion had negative impacts on their lives. And with folks where authoritarian parenting was part of the problem.

I do believe that by now, JB & M are aware of some of the ways their beliefs negatively affected their parenting, which in turn negatively affected their kids. But I don't think their intent was to control their kids for the sake of controlling their kids. I think they were, and for the most part still are, following some crazy Gothard made beliefs, in the name of Christianity. 

When the Duggars say the "do things a little different" its true. But much of their family dynamic is very typical. And one of the things we focus on a lot on here is if the kids will break away, yet most kids continue the follow, and/or identify as, the religion they were raised in.

Its been suggested that I normalize some of the Duggar behaviors. However some of their behaviors are just that.

 

 I haven't signs from JB and Michelle that they have any awareness of what they did to their kids. Maybe these days they're playing it up for television, since Jinger is in California wearing pants/shorts and there's nothing they can do about it.  They haven't changed in any real meaningful since television except maybe become lazier and more complacent.

I believe the Duggars are abusive, neglective parents. They talked about blanket-training. They sent their kids to the Journey to the Heart and ALERT. They have been careful not to talk about directly hitting their kids since that looks bad on television. When Michelle talked about blanket-training, she used the euphemism "gave them a consequence" rather than hit with a spoon. They also neglected their kids. Most of them seem undereducated and there's a disconnect between many of them and their parents. 

Someone said "love is an action" and almost none of JB's and Michelle's actions look like love to me. If that's love, it's very sick concept of love.  I hope that eventually the truth comes out about how abusive these people are. 

[fonfereksglen]

14 minutes ago, Temperance said:

 I haven't signs from JB and Michelle that they have any awareness of what they did to their kids. Maybe these days they're playing it up for television, since Jinger is in California wearing pants/shorts and there's nothing they can do about it.  They haven't changed in any real meaningful since television except maybe become lazier and more complacent.

I believe the Duggars are abusive, neglective parents. They talked about blanket-training. They sent their kids to the Journey to the Heart and ALERT. They have been careful not to talk about directly hitting their kids since that looks bad on television. When Michelle talked about blanket-training, she used the euphemism "gave them a consequence" rather than hit with a spoon. They also neglected their kids. Most of them seem undereducated and there's a disconnect between many of them and their parents. 

Someone said "love is an action" and almost none of JB's and Michelle's actions look like love to me. If that's love, it's very sick concept of love.  I hope that eventually the truth comes out about how abusive these people are. 

Well said. Loving parents would by now realize that two of their last three children need trained professional help. 

[GeeGolly]

18 minutes ago, Temperance said:

 I haven't signs from JB and Michelle that they have any awareness of what they did to their kids. Maybe these days they're playing it up for television, since Jinger is in California wearing pants/shorts and there's nothing they can do about it.  They haven't changed in any real meaningful since television except maybe become lazier and more complacent.

I believe the Duggars are abusive, neglective parents. They talked about blanket-training. They sent their kids to the Journey to the Heart and ALERT. They have been careful not to talk about directly hitting their kids since that looks bad on television. When Michelle talked about blanket-training, she used the euphemism "gave them a consequence" rather than hit with a spoon. They also neglected their kids. Most of them seem undereducated and there's a disconnect between many of them and their parents. 

Someone said "love is an action" and almost none of JB's and Michelle's actions look like love to me. If that's love, it's very sick concept of love.  I hope that eventually the truth comes out about how abusive these people are. 

I don't disagree that JB & M suck as parents. I was merely stating that I don't believe they intended to suck.

I also agree that one way to show love is with actions. From the Duggars' perspective, not sparing the rod, homeschooling, surveilling their kids, etc were actions of love.

[Chicklet]

I think they parented out of fear even if they do probably love their kids. And that's a terrible way to raise children. They were ripe for Gothard's evil methods and ran with it because they were taught to be afraid to raise "ungodly" kids. So they wanted to do the right thing and it was just beyond them.

I still can't stand them or what they stand for, but I do pity the squandered possibility of every kid.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Chicklet