"The View": Week Of 6/25/17

[backformore]

SUNNY!!!!!!!   what happened to you?  I thought you were a lawyer, I thought you were smart!

I'm not a lawyer, but here's what I know about what she said today: 

A doctor  can choose NOT to provide abortions because of their beliefs.   But a doctor cannot base the decision to perform abortions based on the race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, of their patients.  Lots of doctors choose not to perform abortions.  Catholic hospitals do not allow abortions in their facilities.  That's not discrimination.  If you want an abortion, you go to a doctor who performs abortions.  You don't demand it from a doctor who does not perform that service.

A bakery owner is not required to bake anything that the baker does not want to bake. (Like the adult-themed cakes she mentioned)    But if a bakery is in the business of making wedding cakes, they cannot discriminate on who they will bake wedding cakes for.   It's the equivalent of refusing to bake a wedding cake for an interracial couple. 

If a business has a policy of discrimination, and I (or Sarah)  choose not to spend money at that business, that is NOT "discrimination."  as a consumer, I am not required to spend money at establishments whose business practices I disagree with. 

 

I was really disappointed in Sunny - it seems her own religious beliefs were clouding her ability to understand the law.

Edited June 29, 2017 by backformore

[sugarbaker design]

14 minutes ago, backformore said:

A bakery owner is not required to bake anything that the baker does not want to bake. (Like the adult-themed cakes she mentioned)    But if a bakery is in the business of making wedding cakes, they cannot discriminate on who they will bake wedding cakes for.   It's the equivalent of refusing to bake a wedding cake for an interracial couple. 

Thanks for breaking that down backformore!  You did it much more succinctly than I ever could.

16 minutes ago, backformore said:

I was really disappointed in Sunny - it seems her own religious beliefs were clouding her ability to understand the law.

Religious beliefs and reason sometimes do not mix.

[Bronzedog]

I generally really like Sunny, but, I wouldn't be surprised to see her show up someday wearing a parochial school dress.  

[Haleth]

It was surprising to hear Sunny speak on a subject without her legal cap on.  It seems to me that if a business acquires a license to operate in a state it is agreeing to abide by the laws of that state, including any that prohibit discrimination.  Period.  I'm surprised Sunny has an issue with that. 

It was a joy to see Julie Andrews. 

[mrbean5411]

Even when Sunny puts her lawyer cap on, she often doesn't make any sense. She almost always thinks and speaks on emotion without thinking rationally. Getting "rocked to her core" happens to her on an almost daily basis. Being overdramatic on a regular basis diminishes her credibility in my mind.

[backformore]

I think Sunny listened to the talking point that "if we don't let people make decisions based on religious beliefs, then we will  force doctors to do abortions."   that has been the rallying cry of the religious right when it comes to defending homophobic practices based on religion.

Hopefully Sunny will think this through before tomorrow.

Maybe she could see it better if the "gay" was replaced with race.   My question to her would be -  If a baker said he wouldn't bake a cake for an interracial couple because his religious beliefs were that race-mixing went against god, do you think he has the right to not sell wedding cakes to mixed race couples? 

[Wings]

2 hours ago, backformore said:

I think Sunny listened to the talking point that "if we don't let people make decisions based on religious beliefs, then we will  force doctors to do abortions."   that has been the rallying cry of the religious right when it comes to defending homophobic practices based on religion.

Hopefully Sunny will think this through before tomorrow.

Maybe she could see it better if the "gay" was replaced with race.   My question to her would be -  If a baker said he wouldn't bake a cake for an interracial couple because his religious beliefs were that race-mixing went against god, do you think he has the right to not sell wedding cakes to mixed race couples? 

Sunny got tangled quickly.  No, you are not showing religious prejudice if you refuse to do business with someone who will not bake a wedding cake for gays, for religious reasons.  You are exercising your right to do business with whom you choose.   It doesn't matter if the baker is Catholic or an atheist bigot.  The result is is the same and ugly.   This is about the constitution, Sunny, not religion.  

She tried to make someone wrong who refuses to do business with a religious bigot!   Or tried to spin a legal angle anyway. 

AND Sunny, do you think same sex couples are wrong or some abomination?   Sure sounded like it. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by wings707

[Wings]

Julie Andrews has always had the same hair do.  The hair on the top of her head does not grow longer and what you see, maybe 2 to 3 inches.  I know someone who has this same condition.  You can see that her hair is swirled forward to help add to the top of her head, too.  

[Blissfool]

6 hours ago, backformore said:

 

I'm not a lawyer, but here's what I know about what she said today: 

A doctor  can choose NOT to provide abortions because of their beliefs.   But a doctor cannot base the decision to perform abortions based on the race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, of their patients.  Lots of doctors choose not to perform abortions.  Catholic hospitals do not allow abortions in their facilities.  That's not discrimination.  If you want an abortion, you go to a doctor who performs abortions.  You don't demand it from a doctor who does not perform that service.

A bakery owner is not required to bake anything that the baker does not want to bake. (Like the adult-themed cakes she mentioned)    But if a bakery is in the business of making wedding cakes, they cannot discriminate on who they will bake wedding cakes for.   It's the equivalent of refusing to bake a wedding cake for an interracial couple. 

 

Oh my gosh, can you call up Sunny and say this to her. You explained it so well.

Btw, was there a staff meeting where EPs decided that Sarah and Sunny switch roles? Is Sarah now the smart one and Sunny the dumb one?

[Haleth]

Sarah has really been on her game lately. 

[Wings]

4 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Sarah has really been on her game lately. 

She always is, really.  Very sharp woman.  

[TheGreenKnight]

16 hours ago, mrbean5411 said:

Even when Sunny puts her lawyer cap on, she often doesn't make any sense. She almost always thinks and speaks on emotion without thinking rationally. Getting "rocked to her core" happens to her on an almost daily basis. Being overdramatic on a regular basis diminishes her credibility in my mind.

Reason doesn't equal to a lack of compassion or righteous indignation. I mean, Jedilyingliarwholies has a cold-faced demeanor, for example, but most of what she says on a daily basis is fueled by fearmongering and hysteria.

As for Sunny’s comments today: The KKK is not the same as a gay person. One is a hate group that murders people and actively seeks the oppression/suppression of an entire group of people for something they have no control over (their race). The other is a person who has a biological trait they have no control over any more than their sex or race. I’m glad Sunny at least said she’s on the fence. I understand how it’s a grey area for a lot of Christians, because there is a lot of concern about co-signing something God may not approve of (which is a sin because it misrepresents God), but baking a cake for someone to use for their own purposes doesn’t fall under that umbrella to me anymore than selling a ring to a woman who plans to use it to propose to her girlfriend does or selling a bikini to someone who’s going to use it in some sordid sex act does. To me, her example about abortion isn’t the same either because the doctor would be literally involved in the process of getting rid of the baby, whereas with this—the gay couple are the ones getting married, not the baker.

And Sara is right that money is power. He should advertise this so that LGBT individuals and any supporters know that any business they throw his way could be used to fund antigay organizations whose aim is the oppression of LGBT. Choosing not to patronize an establishment to protect yourself or support the rights of others is not “discrimination” anyway you spin it. I read through the past page and forgot who, but I agree that I wish someone at the table had framed it as an interracial couple being shown the door to her. Maybe it might’ve clicked for her then.

Edited June 30, 2017 by TheGreenKnight

[geekburger]

I loved the debate about the wedding cake. All sides brought up and all panelists contributed. 

[Blissfool]

Sarah is back to divulging waaaaay too much about her relationship. And she says they mostly fight about parenting issues. Yet they're having another baby?! I predict a divorce in the near future.

[Haleth]

He's an artist and the government can't decree what he produces?  Bull shit. It's a commercial venture, subject to the laws of the state.  And boo hoo about losing business. That's what happens when you discriminate.  Customers can express freedom of speech too.

[Jaded]

1 minute ago, Haleth said:

He's an artist and the government can't decree what he produces?  Bull shit. It's a commercial venture, subject to the laws of the state.  And boo hoo about losing business. That's what happens when you discriminate.  Customers can express freedom of speech too.

 I didn't like the way that lawyer singled out Joy to go after for her political views in an attempt to defend her client when she didn't do that to any of the other hosts. I don't feel sorry for him or that lady the lawyer described that she said is going to loose everything over not baking a cake. 

[athousandclowns]

I was scratching my head over the comparison that Joy would ever have to write support of the GOPs health bill. She's a comic talk show host not a speech writer. 

Jesus would have baked the cake. 

[Silver Raven]

That lawyer lied when she said that Jesus wouldn't have made a cake for a gay couple because that would have conflicted with what he was preaching.  Jesus never said one word about gay people.  He did say "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."  All of the anti-gay and anti-woman stuff in the New Testament came from Paul.

[Dissy]

3 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

I was scratching my head over the comparison that Joy would ever have to write support of the GOPs health bill. She's a comic talk show host not a speech writer. 

Jesus would have baked the cake. 

Thank you, athousandclowns. I didn't understand what that lawyer meant either. 

Sarah was cranking on all cylinders today.

[Showwatcher]

How does Joy get free Medicare.  Money is taken out of my pay every paycheck not only for social security but Medicare.   I don't understand why people always say Social Security and Medicare is an entitlement and you get it for free.  Most people work and pay social security and Medicare taxes.   Hopefully, you live long enough to collect.  When my mom goes to the doctor, she always has a co-pay and she has to pay exorbitant out of pocket costs for prescriptions because she is in the donut hole even with supplemental medical insurance.  And, money is taken out of her social security check for Medicare.

 

And then we have Whoopi wanting money back because she thinks she paid too much money in and doesn't want to pay for anyone else.  She is always saying we should do more for the poor just as long as it isn't her.  

[Haleth]

I also couldn't understand some of the lawyer's points. This case (if ruled in favor of the baker) won't/can't be used as precedent for other discrimination cases?  Wanna bet?

On another subject, many years ago my daughter was assisting Kendra Wilkinson (of the divorce discussion) while shopping at Sephora and she said Kendra was lovely, a very nice lady.  (Just to give credit to a nice celeb.)

[geekburger]

I loved the baker segment cause the hosts handled it perfectly. It's what this show should be. Also Sarah is truly coming into her own.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Thursday-I can't believe how unbelievably STUPID Sunny was telling or "asking" Sara that by refusing to go into that bigoted baker's store because of his refusal to bake cakes for gay couples in the name of religious freedom, Sara was guilty of discrimination against HIM. What the fuck, now? So is she saying every time someone protests against someone or a company being racist or bigoted or breaking the law, THEY are guilty of the same? NO ONE is stopping this asshat from believing and practicing his religion.????

Today: There was NO WAY, not a single thing Jedifoxbot could say to defend those tweets by ? Menace, so when the subject of him campaigning for 2020 came up, of COURSE she tried to say both sides do it, specifically how no one said jack shit when Obama did it. Really? Really??? She must be living in an alternate universe, because I recall Obama doing his job and saving us from falling into a another Depression, and not going around at rallies, saying how awesome he was and getting stuff done. Of course when it came closer to running again for his second term, that's when he started campaigning again. So, again, STFU you maniacal hyena.

And you guuuuuys!! Nothing about how obvious it was that Paula was defending what ? Menace tweeted and what Huckabee Sanders said in his defense? She brought up when Depp and Griffith say and do what they did, of course he'll "fight back."  EXCEPT this wasn't directed at them. It was at Mika and Joe (who I'm not fans of, but they didn't warrant this attack) without provocation. I don't watch Morning Joe, so don't know if they "attacked" 45 or not. So not the same thing, Paula, so you can also STFU. The press has always criticized every President before this one; so has the public. And it's their and our right to do so, thanks to the First Amendment. Nowhere does it say we have to suck up, praise, and say only nice things.  Where has she been all her life? And she, who considers herself a journalist, says this? Please.????

Good God, but that artist baker was so tone deaf, self-unaware of his bigotry. His defense was that anyone, straight, gay, trans, are free to buy what he sells in his shop, but his religion prevents him, in "good conscience" to make wedding cakes for those from the LGBTQ community. The reason why he won't is breaking the law-DISCRIMINATION. Because of who they are. No one is stopping him from believing that their sexual orientation is a sin, or to accept them. They're not trying to convert his bigoted ass into changing his orientation.

And I ???my ass off and ???so hard when his lawyer was saying that the gay couple and those that thought he is a bigot were the "intolerant" ones. Your client, by refusing to make a wedding cake for this couple because of the FACT that they are gay, is a PRIME example of intolerance. So GTFO. And bringing in Joy's political leanings and saying her having to write a speech supporting the piece of shit "health" bill, made no Fucking sense. Those two aren't even comparable. That piece of shit legislation IS BAD for everyone except the rich and will hurt the majority of America.  How is the relationship of the gay couple, hurting this bigoted asshole? And boo-hoo, that the other 72 year old woman is losing her business because she's also bigoted. People protested with their wallet, instead of burning her establishment down. And another boo-fucking-hoo to this asswipe losing profits because now he's no longer making wedding cakes for anyone. Not because he doesn't want to, or that he wasn't making any money making them/they weren't selling, BUT so that he won't be accused of being a bigot when the next gay couple comes in to ask he make them a wedding cake.

AND again, Jedifoxbot insisting the piece of shit legislation isn't cutting Medicaid, but "decreasing" it because Medicaid is "growing." I don't even know what she means by that. What? Too much money for the poor, sick and elderly??

Edited July 1, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[dr. gailey]

The baker is so confusing. He doesn't want to make a wedding cake because they are against his religion. Yet everyone is free to buy anything else from him. So what is the problem selling them the cake. They weren't asking him to accept their lifestyle. They just wanted baked goods. What if they bought cookies and served them at their wedding. His religion isn't being affected by the guests eating them.

[Silver Raven]

This whole "I can discriminate because it discriminates against me if I don't" crap just reminds me of when Lester Maddox was standing in the doorway of his restaurant with an axe handle and refusing to allow black people to eat in his restaurant (and wound up getting elected Governor of Georgia off the hatred).  If he were alive today, he'd be claiming that his religion prevents the races from mixing, and to tell him otherwise violates his rights.

[telemachus2]

Ugh, Silver Raven!  Sounds like Lester Maddox was a role model for Drumpf on how to win elections without really trying.  Meanwhile, as Sunny noted today, he's apparently illegally benefiting from his so-called public "service" - and as Joy stated, not a Republican will support his impeachment if we ever actually get to that point.

[Haleth]

"Against my religion" to do something reminded me of a story.  I was buying some stuff at Target, including a bottle of wine (don't judge) and went to a cashier who happened to be Muslim.  It didn't occur to me that it would be a problem.  But instead of refusing to sell me the wine she quietly asked if I wouldn't mind scanning and bagging it myself to accommodate her.  Of course not.  She didn't make a big deal, I didn't make a big deal, everyone was happy.  The baker could easily have made the cake and let someone else do the writing or put the topper on, whatever made it a cake for a same sex couple.  He wouldn't have been compromising his beliefs, the couple would have their cake, everyone would be happy.  Except the lawyers who are profiting from all this.

[bannana]

The baker's argument is that he doesn't do cakes for certain kinds of events, and he listed Halloween and Adult theme (I am assuming he means breast or penis cakes?).  But he does do cakes for weddings.  So this is where his argument fails.  I think he could say to a customer, I don't do Halloween cakes for my own reasons.  Fine.  But how can he say, I do wedding cakes, just not for you?  It's illogical.  And the proof of that is that he is no longer doing wedding cakes at all.

[maggiemae]

IIRC he said he no longer does any wedding cakes and his business is down 40% as a result.

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 minutes ago, maggiemae said:

IIRC he said he no longer does any wedding cakes and his business is down 40% as a result.

Yup. And like I posted above, boo-fucking-hoo, because he only stopped because then he wouldn't be accused of bigotry when he continued to refuse to make them for gay couples. And I bet he's just lapping up all this attention and sees himself as some leader or fighter for religious freedom that made the Supreme Court-the SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES!!!! y'all! Probably thinking they'll rule in his favor. I wish they hadn't granted the writ for certiorari. 

[ChicagoCita]

4 hours ago, maggiemae said:

IIRC he said he no longer does any wedding cakes and his business is down 40% as a result.

Well, it could be that people don't want to buy baked goods from bigots, too. As Sarah said, if her brother (and my stepbrother, and my neighbors) aren't welcome at a business, chances are 100% that I'm not going to be patronizing them. BTW, there was a bakery in my community that was very Christian -- had the creche in the window at Christmas, closed on Sundays, etc. -- and they not only made Pride cupcakes, but they bragged about their wedding cakes for same-sex weddings, several of which were featured in magazines. That made me patronize them even more (sorry, hips!) because to me, "Love thy neighbor" -- the basis of Christianity -- means you bake for their weddings and wish them happiness and joy.

Edited July 2, 2017 by ChicagoCita

[2727]

On 6/30/2017 at 9:57 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

So, again, STFU you maniacal hyena.

My motto for The View.

[tribeca]

Not usually a big will fan but found him funny on Wednesday show until he had to play that stupid game.  Actually no one was funny in that segment.  

[Former Nun]

On 6/30/2017 at 2:59 PM, Silver Raven said:

Jesus never said one word about gay people.

You can make some Uber-Christians CRAZY by suggesting that Jesus may have been gay.

[Former Nun]

On 6/29/2017 at 9:00 AM, backformore said:

as a consumer, I am not required to spend money at establishments whose business practices I disagree with. 

I'm one of 24 cousins, FIVE of whom are gay...one woman and four men (brothers!).  There is a great pipeline among the gay folks and their advocates.  They can help give or take away business in a flash!  They can sometimes make events successful that would have been so-so.

[Neurochick]

On June 27, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Bronzedog said:

I think the people Whoopie takes care of are her loser daughter's family and her grandchildren's families.  A problem of her own making.

Why is that a problem of her own making?  You could be the best parent in the world and still have a loser child.  

As for the man who refused to bake the cake for the same sex couple, the bullshit he was spewing was so high I could barely see his face.  And the lawyer was full of it too, what a witch.  Why was he full of it?  Because he was making the wedding cake about HIM.  I wished someone would have told the so called artist, "it's not about YOU, it's about the couple.  Don't be so fucking self centered and bake the damn cake."  I looked at Joy's face during that segment, she was thisclose to smacking that guy across the face.  I had the same look on my face too.

And that Sunny person, what a loon.  Performing an abortion isn't the same thing as baking a cake for a same sex couple.  

Edited July 4, 2017 by Neurochick